It Makes What It Makes: The Podcast
It Makes What It Makes: The Podcast is a place where we do what we want.
Join Lisa and Marian's conversations about anything and everything from fun topics like animals, to dating in middle age/perimenopause, to doubting the official story. Like lake house shots, it makes what it makes.
Email itmakeswhatitmakes@gmail.com
It Makes What It Makes: The Podcast
Why Does He Do That? - Part 2
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In this episode, Marian and Lisa dive into a book we've mentioned often but don't seem to have an episode about, Lundy Bancroft's Why Does He Do That?
What should we cover in the future? What are your thoughts on this episode? Have other opinions or feedback? Let us know at itmakeswhatitmakes@gmail.com.
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Special thanks to our producer, Jason Tedford, for making us crystal clear with our shenanigans.
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Welcome to It Makes What It Makes, the podcast where we do what we want. And that's Lisa. And that's Marion. Yeah. That's that's all.
SPEAKER_02That's the short I had I had some um intro feedback on our our name change. Okay. And um and it, you know, it was just like, you know, people like to go, oh, you could call yourself this, or you could I go, actually, I go, since we've changed the name, we've actually seen growth. So I think to think this is the winning ticket.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's wild. It's it's I mean, we were on steady growth before, but not long after the name change, we did start to get a tick uptick. So I don't know, correlation, causation, I don't know.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Anyway, I do enjoy all the feedback though. So thank you to them. Um, there are ways you can support this show if you like it. Um even if you don't like the name, uh right. You can share the show on most podcast apps. You can rate the show, you can leave a review on some of them, you can download episodes, so it gives us the downloads, like subscribe to the to the show on whatever app. Um, yeah. And you can also help us out with monies on buymeacoffee.com slash female mentor pod. I have not updated that yet, but um, you can donate as little as five dollars once or a hundred up to a hundred dollars a month, and we have several supporters. That's uh the librarian, the other preacher's daughter, Ambrosia, Rosie the Riveter, the Seer, and my big sister that I know about. So thank you to our those. They're all kind of long-term supporters at this point, and we appreciate it all goes back into the show, and it still will for a while because yeah, even if we doubled, which I'm super grateful for them. Yes, so I don't mean it like that, but like even if it doubled, we'd still all go back into the show.
SPEAKER_02Oh, 100%, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so uh, you know, I I pay for YouTube subscriptions so for like member content, and I pay for Patreon for a couple of you know, like, and I don't even always listen to those just because I'm supporting my friends or whatever, they're a podcaster too. So, you know, if you feel you get value from it, and uh you won't miss a coffee a month or whatever. So, anyway, yeah. Uh we're broadcasting, we're not, we're podcasting, we're recording. It it's still it feels like radio. I mean, it really my little stint and radio in college, but um from the Wolfman studios in Little Rock, Arkansas, with our friend Jason Tedford as our producer. So thank you, Jason. And I think that's the housekeeping.
SPEAKER_02That's I think so.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oui. Look at you. Tried to make it succinct.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, such a professional, I feel professional.
SPEAKER_00I mean, we've had a lot of practice.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, okay, fair.
SPEAKER_00Like, I feel like I should be better than I am at it, but put it out there. And I like that it's not pre-recorded, even I mean, even though it's like the same stuff.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I kind of dig that, yeah.
SPEAKER_02That's it's it's personalized every time.
SPEAKER_00Every time. A little different. Improv. Do you have a G spot today? I do.
SPEAKER_02I do. So I'm I can't name names. Um I'll tell you in private, but have you ever well put it this way? Something got back to me as far as like, it's not necessarily gossip, it's an opinion about me.
SPEAKER_00And oh my word, what is going on in Little Rock?
SPEAKER_02People need some hobbies. This is just listen, Little Rock, just little traffin, you know, it's okay. I have I have feelings about who said it as well. So it's not surprising, but it is it's very enlightening, and it actually makes me laugh. And um what the what got back to me is um it's someone you know, and um they were talking about, and it's it's like part compliment and part I just have to say it. I'm gonna say it as it was told to me. Basically, for me, they're like, for someone as good looking as Lisa is, you know she's crazy because she can't keep a man.
SPEAKER_00And a woman said this.
SPEAKER_02Huh? No.
unknownOh.
SPEAKER_02And um, yeah, so that's also the hilarious part. And the part that I'm like tickled, I'm like, I'm sorry, am I supposed to take that as a personal failure? Because to me, um, the person who said this, I know for sure isn't a miserable marriage. So I'm like, wow, well, that's that's super enlightening. Okay. I'm so my choice is to stay miserable and then I'm what not crazy? I think it's more crazy. Yeah, I yeah, I'm this is and I'm like, okay, but also who says a man is the prize? Keep a man? How about they try to keep me?
SPEAKER_00Right, like that's your whole goal.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, my whole up. Then I'm then I'm fulfilled. I have filled this hole in my heart. My life. Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I thought that was so it was a random husband. Somebody else's husband, you're you're taking up that much room. What is that? Rent-free in his head.
SPEAKER_02Oh, damn straight.
SPEAKER_00I feel like you're not the crazy one in this equation. Nope.
SPEAKER_02I that's why it's funny, but also I'm like, damn. I'm like, it is interesting that that's that's that worldview is very interesting.
SPEAKER_00Uh it's and still pervasive, which is funny because it flows into our topic today, but like oh, for sure.
SPEAKER_022026, y'all. The audacity.
SPEAKER_00If you listen to this in the future, like this, we are surprised also that it's still happening, things like that. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02How about why can't it be like, oh, she, you know, hey, she doesn't put up with shit, like, or something. Why can't it be that? Why why does it gotta be? I can't. Oh, trust me, I could hang on to all the trashy men, but I choose not to. How about that? Right.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. People don't really give an opinion on my life or ask me about it. I don't know. Maybe I strike them as someone who's supposed to be single. I and I don't know how to take that bit.
SPEAKER_02I see. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Like, nobody really ever asked me. Nobody's curious. I mean, some of our married friends, I think, enjoy our dating stories on here. But like, yeah, no, I can't. Yeah, I don't know. I'm I'm convinced my grandma might have thought I was gay. But like, uh I have no idea. Nobody really, yeah. If they're talking about me, they're not talking to me about it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, he didn't get back to you. Nope. Yeah. Well, yeah, consider yourself lucky. It's not really, but it is. I did find it. That statement was so fascinating. I was like, oh okay.
SPEAKER_00I was like so dumb. Yes. I mean, really, like, this is low. Maybe he's also a low effort husband.
SPEAKER_02But also, oh yes, for sure. And but also maybe I'm just that successful that I don't, I'm like like freaking out. I need a partner. Maybe I'm okay, you know. I'm not right. Because I remember, I and we've talked about this. I do remember being younger. And, you know, while I look back, I'm like, I make good money, but it was still tight. And it was just so like every every month or living paycheck to paycheck to paycheck, it was rough. It was like, God, it'd be so nice to have a partner in this shit that like could take, you know, give some sort of financial relief and be part of the burden and whatever. All of yes, that was super attractive. Now I I'm kind of like, it's it's it, they they're gonna have to be, all of it's gonna have to be super attractive. Put it that way.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you know. I'm I'm ready to be there. I'm ready to be that comfortable finding it. Right. I'm working on it, but goodness. The lean years were lean enough. I still I know I never feel like I recover from them. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, but and you did, you went through it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, you guys just, I mean, admittedly, money is not, I like to spend money. Oh who does like I just I'm what I think people are born like savers or spenders. And sometimes you're forced to save because yeah, like you had a child, so it pushed you to do be even more responsible or whatever. I and I haven't I've had no such compunction. So um, not that I want someone else's opinion on how I do things, but admittedly, I probably could have more money right now in my life, but you know, choices, uh whatever. I'm working on it and a retirement, right? Because now I'm like uh I used to just think, I mean, it's depressing, and you're like, I'm just gonna work forever, or I do want to be able to work and it be my choice, maybe. You know what I mean? Like, but yeah, the older I get, the less I'm uh I feel that like I just want to quit working. I like my job a lot.
SPEAKER_02I feel you.
SPEAKER_00I guess I want to have the freedom to like do more of what I want.
SPEAKER_02Do what you want. I understand. Don't you know, yeah. I love my job too, but man, if I could spend my time however I wanted, yeah.
SPEAKER_00I would travel, I would literally just be in my camp or somewhere, like all kinds of things. In fact, that's my current thinking is I think I might be a person to retire to an RV. Yeah, why not? Like just do the travel life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, why not?
SPEAKER_00Snowbird, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it sounds good. I like um, but I I you know, I think about retirement and or gosh, how could I, you know, what would it take? Like, I've did the math on like what would be the amount in the like the lot, what the lottery amount, what would be the bare bones amount that I would have to bring home if I won the lottery that I could go, yep, I'm set for the rest of my life.
SPEAKER_00I asked Chat GPT because I didn't want to do the math.
SPEAKER_02I'm I'm massed it out.
SPEAKER_00What if I wanted to do this, retire and it'd be a full-time RVer?
SPEAKER_01Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00Well, this is lottery. No, this is lottery, assuming a house purchase, right? Because I don't have an asset. I eventually will own my parents' house, so I do have that safety net or whatever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00You know, and if they're alive, I have that safety net. So, like, yeah, why not? Why plan for like I mean, unless unless they could successfully do a golden girls right living? That house is still for sale, by the way. The one with the crazy clock.
SPEAKER_02Living out in the woods, it's on the water. I know, but I'm not living in the woods. I'm not in the woods. No, that's out too far. That's in the woods. No, that's in the woods. I don't need, I don't want to have to use an access road to get to my house. I have demands.
SPEAKER_00I want to be also to think about like, okay, maybe I buy a house on the water and then people come to me.
SPEAKER_02There you go. That makes it very attractive.
SPEAKER_00Yes.
SPEAKER_02Yes.
SPEAKER_00But if I had to live in hot springs, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Like, um, um, maybe hot springs.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I don't really like it that much. That's where the water is.
SPEAKER_02It weirds me out. Yeah. I don't know. I like I like where my house is a lot.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, see, I would I don't I don't mind, but that's not what I would choose. Yeah. But I don't like the city, not a city dweller.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I just think about like as I get older, I'm like, I'm right there. Like everything that I would want to do is right there. Like there's all these new restaurants that keep popping up, and it's like, you know, you don't have to go far, I don't have to fight. It's like easy access to the interstate and you know, things like that.
SPEAKER_00Well, I actually have most of that where I'm living right now, to be fair.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Like our downtown is not as close as it is to you, but it's pretty close. Like I I maybe drive for five minutes or I take an Uber or whatever. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So do we okay. Another off this is off topic. Have you watched or caught well? I know you have because we were texting about it. Some of the the Lindsay Clancy trial stuff.
SPEAKER_00Yes, I'm not caught up, I don't think. But just but it just gets weirder and weirder.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00I mean, I almost want to do a recorded discussion about it because there's just so much.
SPEAKER_02And this weekend they they've just started the um prosecution, process prosecution has rest their case. And now is starting the defense, which is also taking, you know, I can tell by TikTok and things like the people are surprised by Reddington's direction.
SPEAKER_00But I'm not. We've been very popular online. Like there's a lot of a lot of Zaddy love for defense attorney.
SPEAKER_02There are people who are called, they have all these like names, like big red. It's so funny.
SPEAKER_00It is funny. Um, but yeah, and I and I was doing stuff over the weekend, so I haven't I haven't caught up even on like TikTok version of it.
SPEAKER_02No, it's an interesting case. I think what makes it interesting is as a lay person, you're like, you want it to play out like a you know, a courtroom drama movie, you know.
SPEAKER_00You do, you you do because we don't have the real court, no, yeah, no, and it's not how you'd rather have this end-of-day review of it because it is boring in the middle. Yeah. And I say that as someone who really enjoyed jury duty.
unknownRight.
SPEAKER_00I mean, if if I were a juror in this case, maybe it would be more because you're because you have to pay attention a different way, I guess. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02So yeah, so for folks, if you haven't checked it out, it's the Lindsay Clancy case, um, a a young mother who um is pleaing in an insane made an insanity plea and saying she's not guilty because due to insanity of mur of strangling her three young children. And but the and she says she she she admits that she I'm unclear because it goes back and forth, and the and the direction it went today is so unclear. Because again, I don't know the law, like you know right. And so she has a non a non-guilty, she's entered non-guilty, but then there is, but he is still very much, he took a strong direction of showing her mental state today. Okay, and but if you go for folks, go take a take a look at it, take a look at you know, the timeline. The timeline is weird, the injuries are weird, it's it's all weird.
SPEAKER_00Like it's just the husband is weird, the psychiatrist is weird.
SPEAKER_02It's it's yeah, it's so strange.
SPEAKER_00And it's just like the physical evidence is weird, even as how the prosecution presented it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02There was times where like I would see clips, I'm like, is that the prosecution or the defense? Because the way that they even question their own witnesses, I was like, What?
SPEAKER_00Right, and I and also the the prosecutor gets a lot of hate for the bows that she wears, evidently. Which yeah, I think grown women don't. I don't even like the big bows that they put on babies. No, but they're babies, they're babies like how I don't think grown women should have pigtails. I think if you're over like 10, if you've injured puberty, it's the end of pigtail.
SPEAKER_02That's it for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, um, that's fine. That's my hot take on it. You if you I don't I'm not gonna be like losing sleep if somebody, a grown woman has them, but I just don't, you know, not my preference. I notice like waitresses and stuff, which maybe that's the best way for them to get their hair out, but you know, whatever.
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah, I then they're not comfortable.
SPEAKER_00My my always got headaches from like particularly French braids, which are not pigtails, but braided pigtails would have given, I think, the same thing. And my mom just didn't do it, so I don't know. I didn't learn until I was much older even how to make like a basic plait. So it was like, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, no, like my that was a very popular. I had long hair when I was little, and they would always put it in two like ponytails, you know, the two ponytails or whatever, pigtails, but they were up high, and oh my god, my head that would hurt so bad. But anyways, yeah, check it out. They again, I'm trying not to get I mean, it does really look like the the husband. I maybe he's just a weirdo.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Maybe, maybe his best friend is his his long-lost brother.
SPEAKER_02Right, right.
SPEAKER_00That one was I was like, what? Mm-hmm. It's just that's even that's even with how much I take in about the Tyler Robinson case, the accused killer of Charlie Kirk. And I watched the I use the word loosely debate. Okay, that this loser guy did with Candace Owens. Anyway, that's that's too long to explain on here either. But yeah. Yeah. But yeah, no, it's a that's like my one of my only hobbies right now.
SPEAKER_02But I'm like, I sit there, I'm like, you know, I because my you know, my FYP knows me and it serves it all up. So I'm like, I'm trying to be now. Do I feel passionately that Lindsay was let down by the entire by like all the people in the medical world let her down? Yes. Now, do I think she was a compliant patient?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't. But uh but also there are reasons to not be compliant, you know what I mean? Like it's it's not that cut and dry.
SPEAKER_02I get it, I know, I know.
SPEAKER_00That's why this is like I found in my time as a uh adult person with a lot of illnesses off and on, or whatever, that one specialist or physician or whatever is not paying attention to what the others are doing. So many don't know about uh medication combinations. Like nurses know that, and Kim can chime in on this. Yep. Any day I take a nurse's word on on drugs over a doctor because they only know like the thing, the little sliver, and they'll prescribe whatever, and a lot of them just prescribe whatever they're told to prescribe, and it's that's it. Like this is why I have that thing about statins, like, oh, you have high cholesterol, here's the only yeah, let's do this in a vacuum, whatever. Anyway, yep, for sure.
SPEAKER_02But anyways, yeah, the the details don't add up, the timeline doesn't add up. The the lack of listening to Lindsay when she's like, I'm not okay, and I'm having these thoughts is so bizarrely just the just kind of wrote her off, I feel like. And yeah, I don't know. It's just it again, I'm trying to keep an open mind and not like dig in because I know any it could all change.
SPEAKER_00Like now we're just now well, even as it stands, I'm mixed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah. But anyway, yeah, it doesn't make any sense. All right, you're ready to get into our oh wait, did you have a G spot? No, okay.
SPEAKER_00No, I can do I I don't have a lot on a GLP update, but it's pretty it's good. I'm like at 25 pounds down roughly now. Yeah, so it's moving. It's moving. I was a little worried on the Dosage and like I get kind of frustrated when I want to eat food. Yeah. Still, like I still have that. Yeah. Sometimes it's fine, and then some days it's like I don't want to feel hungry. Like I don't want to want food. Because it's so much easier when I do, but it's still so much easier to do a calorie deficit.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00With it. I mean, I don't think I'd be able to do it. I mean, there's no way. I knew I couldn't because I tried. Right. Since I turned 40, it's just been brutal. But also the split dose is the way for me. Like, I don't know how people go a whole week. I don't know how they do it. I'm tempted sometimes to go even closer together. But I'm like, okay, if it's working how it's right now, I'm in a good spot and it's moving for so I'm so I'm not adjusting the dose anymore. Yeah. I'm trying to just if it's moving the way it's moving, I think I'm in good shape right now. But everything is changing how it's supposed to on the body composition, too. Like, oh good. Yeah, I'll go in. I mean, and you can like you can do a certain date to a certain date. Like at first, it just shows you whatever it wants, but then you can go in on that the app for that scale, which I bought some one similar to yours. Um, you can change the date range, which helps a lot because it just wants to, I don't know. The defaults are weird, but yeah, you can go. I mean, even the the things I need more of, there's more of, I mean, it's it's everything's kind of proportional. So I think it's going the way it's supposed to.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I really I do like that scale because when I first got it, I was like, God, I mean, my water composition, like, it was so sad. And so I really try to pay attention so that you know, I try to keep it as high as I can.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I'm trying to bump up my protein scale. So, like my it's kind of a fun personal challenge. Like, how can I get the most bang from my buck as far as calories per grams of protein? So, can I keep low cat? How do I keep low calorie high protein?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And yeah, so I end up eating a lot of the same things, but again, it's working. So trying to not lose my hair, also, like that is part of it.
SPEAKER_02I in that Mary and you would have to like lose like 25 pounds in like three weeks for that to start happening.
SPEAKER_00Well, I'm I've lost hair for different mostly for my thyroid in the past, but like I just I want to follow the rules to keep from that from happening. But yeah, no, I'm still highly recommended, especially for someone like me who's like quite a bit over, like it just it it lets you live life, yeah. And I'm not and if I I joke and not joke, but I say like okay, I don't like to be hungry, but I also don't mind going to a restaurant because I know what I'm gonna do, and I also have an easier time ordering less food, like I'll order an appetizer sometimes now, and still often bring something home, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, that's really good. I really I'm I'm I don't know. I'm so happy for you on that because I yeah, there's no just clicking along.
SPEAKER_00I've got some things for travel now, yeah, to keep the temperature. I know you said the temperature, but I don't want to risk it. So I've got got my stuff ready for my trip. Yep.
SPEAKER_02That's awesome. That's awesome. All right, well, let's let's dig in, shall we? Yes. So part two of um why can't I think today? Why does he do that? By Lundy Bancroft. We've only been talking about this book since last week and stuff, but yeah. So part two of that, and we're gonna pick up. I think we're kind of close. We're, you know, so if we overlap a little bit, so you know, it'll be fine. But we're gonna pick up on basically like where where he starts off like, how do you know you're being abused? And before I get into like the pages, like I just have some notes, and it was like one of the things that to me, and I was like, yep, that really stood out to me was it's never the right time or the right way to bring things up. Like, you know, and you see it all the time, like on Reddit, where they're like, oh, it's a relationship problem. Everybody's like, you need to have a talk, you need to communicate. And you know what? In a healthy relationship, you're right. You can have a conversation and be heard and not face someone that gets super defensive or turns it into a fight or tells you you're just trying to fight, you know, those type of things. You can, but this when you're in a relationship where you're like, uh, maybe this is an abusive relationship. This is one of those key things, you know, because it's not as blatant as, well, he always he, you know, throws furniture or punches walls, you know. That's like, that's there's a hole in the wall. You can't argue that.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02But and it's never quite straight as straightforward as it's never the right time or right way to bring things up. That's like there is a pattern that has to be established. And I feel like that thing alone tends to escalate. Where it's like maybe the first time it's like, oh, this was a misunderstanding. Okay, you know, and then it's like, oh, I want to talk. And then, and then it feels like it's easier just to not bring it up.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And there you, there it is, right back to what he says, and he talks about that power imbalance and control. And now you are being controlled into don't rock the boat, be compliant, don't ever try to bring up anything, you know, that maybe, you know, it's just ridiculous. You know, it's just that we you once you're in it, you're like, oh shit. First off, it never gets resolved, or you end up apologizing for them hurting your feelings, basically, or doing something wrong. Um, or blatant, you know, something blatantly wrong, for that matter. Um, or it's like it gets spinned back onto you, you know, something like that. Or, you know, you get accused of like, you know, you just have a a negative narrative in your mind. That didn't really happen like that. You just gotta tell yourself these stories. So it's just it what you know so one of these things, I and I was when I was working on my notes, you know, I keep a journal, and this was actually from a post-it that I put in my journal, and it was about someone I was in a relationship with, and I was like, you know what, this fits with this. And it's and I wrote, he could hurt my feelings without accountability, because I should always assume he never meant it, but I was always accountable for hurting his. And it's like, yep. I was an asshole because I just didn't just automatically assume the best that he, you know, it was always an accident. He never meant it, you know, yeah, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00But you took it the wrong way.
SPEAKER_02Yep. God, you just you're just so negative. You just how can you how did you get from there to there? You know, it's like, whoa, hey, you the the facts are this, the facts are the facts. You said this. Well, that's not what I meant. Okay, but you still are responsible for those words, like you, you're still responsible for it or your actions.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think there's a funny thing where I mean, he he gets into it later, but how entitled the abusive partner feels. And I think that helps with the mindset of understanding like why why things are so whacked, like because he's entitled to certain things that you are not, right?
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00So he can have all the hurt feelings in the world.
SPEAKER_02Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. His feelings are real.
SPEAKER_00If he doesn't think your feelings should be hurt, they shouldn't be hurt. Yeah, if you if you take something he says in a way he sub now is saying he didn't mean it as, obviously that's you. I mean, there's such that self-centered, but yeah, the entire framing an entitlement I think helps. Yeah when you look at it.
SPEAKER_02If you yeah, yeah, so so Lendy says he retaliates against you for complaining about his behavior. So that's that retaliation, like, you know, that you're just negative, you know, just making it into something bigger, or he tells you that your objections to his mistreatment are your own problem. Yeah. So that shows up like you're just being too sensitive. Um, you know, every little thing bothers you. Um, not everyone is all nicey nicey when they're angry, you know. So it's just those type of things, like, or you're just angry because you aren't getting your way. So you're saying I'm mistreating you. So different, you know, those are his examples that he says for that.
SPEAKER_00It's gotten me where I'm, and maybe I'm a fuddy duddy, but I don't think jokes about women being a nag your wife, you know, because your wife's asking the bare minimum of you or brings things up that bother her. That like that's such a trope, kind of like how I'm a similarly annoyed by the the dopey husband, like the inept father. No, you you're a full-ass adult who's a parent. 100% you have responsibilities, and you have responsibilities to people that you make a romantic commitment to. Yeah, like you just do, and they make you feel like you can't hold them accountable for anything.
SPEAKER_02Because then you're if you do, you're a nag. And it's like, and I do feel like um when we call people a Karen, it's like now we are now we're silencing women who are like, hey, and everybody's a suddenly a Karen. It's like, well, so now it's like, oh, I don't want to be a Karen. I guess I won't say anything. And I don't know, I don't like it. I don't think that's fair.
SPEAKER_00You know, well, I definitely have been, and some of it was my own immaturity. I wouldn't say I was necessarily in an abusive situation, but I remember being so hesitant to bring up things that I thought were negative that were going on. I don't know if it was like I didn't want to feel like him to feel like I was being critical.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_00Or yeah, or it was early on enough that you're like, oh, I don't know, you know, it's still does it does this really matter?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Right. And minimizing my own feelings, like it's like maybe I'm overreacting, or you know what?
SPEAKER_02I still struggle with that. I think everybody does because it's like early on, it's like we're trying to be nice. You you want to be you want to be nice to each other. And it's like maybe somebody does something wonky, or you're like, huh. And you're like, uh, doesn't I'm not gonna start something over that, you know, or like what ugh, you know, that sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00Or at what point does he owe me a little more as a relationship? You know what I mean? Like, like, for example, and you know, the guy I dated who turned out to be an alcoholic. There was stuff I saw early that bothered me, but I was like, kind of like you, like, oh, we're we're all drinking, or yeah. One that really got me was how he managed money, like uh he would go cash out his money enough to overdraft his account so he'd have the cash to go drink and do whatever he wanted. And his his mom was like a big time enabler because any of the other expenses she would just like she was paying his car insurance and she was paying gas and body blood, and we'd go on. If we'd go somewhere, she'd give him money like he was 12 to take you to do the thing, yeah. Oh, and like it really bothered me to see his like had no idea what money he had in his pocket, it'd be wadded, the bills would be watted up, but I wasn't his wife, right? So it to be like it's his money to do what he wants to with, but I I don't I think it was like a sign of other problems, but yeah, yeah. I mean, you don't know what you don't know, first of all. But second of all, yeah, when are you when is it a right time? I don't know if it ever is.
SPEAKER_02If it bothers you, okay, but here's here's been here's the biggest shift, my personal shift, because younger Lisa would have like, okay, I I don't want to say something, well, let's see if that happens again or something else. And then I might eventually say something, and I don't want to start like unraveling and you know, let's let's get into it and talk about it and you know, I didn't like that, and blah, blah, blah. And then it's like I get into this thing with somebody, and I'm like, it's all frustrating, and now it's like complicated because the I like them, we have good times, but then this is so frustrating, and that, but that's not making me happy, or they're doing this still, or whatever. No, that's that's that's young Lisa. Lisa now is like, uh, I don't like that. And I don't have to tell them why. I don't have to even tell them what it is I don't like. I just I don't have to be around them, period. Like just, you know what? I that be because now knowing what I know now, that behavior is only going to escalate.
SPEAKER_00If like I mean, I was definitely more naive.
SPEAKER_02And you know, and I my tolerance is so it's so much less. It's like, yeah, I don't like that. We're not, no, we're not doing that. Like, and I've been accused of being aloof or uncaring or um, you know, lots of lots of things, you know, that when guys are like, they what? You just don't, you're just gonna, that's it. You don't want to, but I thought, and I'm like, nope.
SPEAKER_00I think something and a goal I would say almost is to get radically comfortable with someone thinking you're a bitch.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I'm fine with it.
SPEAKER_00Like that's yeah, I love the phrase of like what they think of me is not my business. I mean, I know if you're in a healthy relationship, it it matters, but like if you're just this kind of thing, like um, if that means I'm a bitch, then fine. Like I'm not letting this drag out drag in my life, like become a drag. That's what I'm trying to say.
SPEAKER_02Maybe you've been out with someone five times, and there's like, and everybody has deal breakers, and everybody and all of them are different. And it might look tiny and insignificant for someone else. But for me, I'm like, that's a tiny and insignificant thing that is like a the tip of an iceberg. And I don't wanna, I don't care. I don't care what the rest of it looks like, I don't want any part of it. I just don't. And I don't have to. Like you don't owe somebody like, well, you gotta put the work in. No, and dating someone for five weeks, there is no gotta put the work in. Like, no, no, thank you. Like, I don't know what that is. That's like, that's not even a sunk cost fallacy. That's like, what? I'm sorry, you have misread this situation.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's so strange. But yeah, so I wrote down on my notes, so it said, if I had a a dollar for every time, I don't like the nickel because that really wouldn't be a lot, even though it'd be a lot, a lot of times, but if I had a dollar for every time I've been told I changed the narrative, I'd have a big pile of money. Um, let's see. I did write something about like um the silent treatment. And because I feel like that's one of those things that like we like to talk about, like someone who is like will get mad and yell at you and call you names or throw stuff or break something or like start a fight with you, you know, to to keep you up so you don't get any sleep, so that ruins your next day, or it fucks up your birthday, whatever, all that stuff. But the silent treatment, holy c that is so cruel. And the thing about it is, is it sounds opposite. It sounds like someone who's just like, I don't, I don't, I don't like to argue. It only because it sounds like someone who's kind of pious, like, I'm a calm dude. I don't like to argue. So they withdraw. But here's here's how they fucking do it. Because it comes out of nowhere. You don't even, you're not even told what it is that you did wrong. You just come home and they are you're like, what? And you can feel it, the energy, and you're like, what just happened? And they're just like, and I'm like, so now I have to play detective, and then you know, who knows? Who knows when it's going to be, you know, corrected or whatever. And it's and it feels like, what the fuck did I do? And it it's and to me, for me, it's a it personally triggers me. And I know that's my shit, but it triggers me.
SPEAKER_00I get I get I mean, but you're picking up on something bigger. It's not, I mean, there's a load of disrespect and lack of care in that.
SPEAKER_02Like suddenly you just don't exist, and you're like, what the fuck just happened? So it's like this weird punishment.
SPEAKER_00You gotta go that's what I was gonna say, you exist enough for them to be trying to make you feel something, right? Right. As bad as they do, yeah.
SPEAKER_02And you know, it's like, but at the same time, I'm no angel. I have, I am guilty. So it's like, I think one of the things in this book, and and Lundy gets into it later, is like there are things in here that I'm like, yep, I've done that to someone. Yep, I'm guilty of it. I'm guilty of giving the this the silent treatment. I am. And and I and and you know what? It's like there's been times where like I did 100% give someone the silent treatment. And then there's other times where it's like I gave a strange form of it where I'm like, I'm so mad right now. I'm basically what I'm saying, I'm going to give you the silent treatment because I'm so mad at you right now that I need to shut down and you know.
SPEAKER_00But that's also different, especially if you can communicate. I'm at a point right now I can't talk about this, but you're giving it a it's not forever.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I would actually appreciate that.
SPEAKER_00And you're owning it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. Like so it's, you know, ugh, interesting. Let's see. So we talked about like it's never the right time. Um let's see, he undermines your progress. And so that can look like maybe he like damages your friendships or like decide, you know, that's like that isolation. Like, that's where that entitlement of like they're supposed to be your end all be all. And if you are focusing on other people, they can't, they can't handle it. So they've got to like damage that, like shit on that friend, or you know, basically decide, you know, that's not a good friend for you, or whatever. Um, that sort of thing. So that's that isolation. Maybe they take advantage of you financially.
SPEAKER_00Well, how many times have you seen it where the woman sacrifices her schooling and career to put the husband through his degree and then law school and then whatever, whatever. And then it's never a good time for her never to pursue the things that she wanted.
SPEAKER_02So they give it up. And to me, that is that is taking advantage of somebody in a financial way. To me. Yes. Because you don't on paper, yeah, you you don't, you're not coming home with a paycheck, but you it doesn't mean you're not doing anything.
SPEAKER_00You're making his life possible, exactly. Which is a a frame of reference. Again, it when I was younger, I didn't see things as much as, but especially if you have children together and you're taking the responsibility for these kids that he wants.
SPEAKER_02Yes. Yes.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, yeah. I even though I expressed surprise when you told me alimony is still a thing, this is a reason maybe why I would believe alimony should still be a thing. It sh absolutely should be a thing. Because you have given that person essentially your earning potential. Because you stopped doing something to support them.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I haven't looked it up. I would be curious how much would it cost to have a full-time nanny? What is those what are those actual costs? And a cook? You know, what it would let's just that's bare bones. A cook, a housekeeper, and a nanny. What would that actually cost?
SPEAKER_00And so I mean, like in my parents' world, I don't know, I don't think they ever made this much, but uh a couple hundred thousand dollars would not be out of the room. Or or salary, and you provide housing and a vehicle and they take care of that person's basic needs to some extent.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So I mean, it's like, oh, you she was just a stay-at-home mom, or but I'm like, she was a cook, a nanny, a housekeeper, a chauffeur. Like, come on, be so for real. And a like, probably a personal assistant, personal shopper, you name it. Oh, yeah. So, I mean, I would I would love to have a wife, a stay-at-home wife.
SPEAKER_00Oh, this is my contention. Every woman needs a wife, right? Well, I even think about, I mean, I know they're older generation, but I am thankful that whatever, even in Little Marion, like I found out my mom packed my dad's things for a trip. I'm like, what? No, you're saying it because they're old that you say that. If you were expected every time to pack your husband's suitcase for a trip, get out of my face with that noise.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00No, he's pretty my dad is capable and he has packed for himself, so it's fine. But like, I can't imagine doing that for a man, like telling in a here are the clothes you have, or the guys that don't that's like the ones that the dentist. There was a dentist that had made a video a while back that was like, I have these men come into my office and they have no idea what they're here for. They're just like made the just go to the dentist.
SPEAKER_02That's crazy.
SPEAKER_00I just I I just take care of so many things for myself. I cannot imagine.
SPEAKER_02I can't. What a what a dream that I would just all I have to do is go to work, make money, and my wife like makes all my own. But do you think about it?
SPEAKER_00I still would be invested in my own health care, like come home, dinner's made. Would I love it if someone like took it?
SPEAKER_02Yes, my my clothes are picked out. I never have to go shopping because my wife does it all.
SPEAKER_00No, I wouldn't know.
SPEAKER_02Like, what that would be great. I see why. I see why they're mad.
SPEAKER_00It's a mental effort. I have to agree because yeah, one of my biggest complaints for a long time was the stupid trash. Yeah, and I gotta say, today, housemate did the trash. Now, I pay for all our bags, so I get a little irritated when she empties, like she'll take it out and it's not full. Oh, it's not up to your because you pay by the bag, and I'm like, okay, if you if you don't put food stuff in this, if you throw food out somewhere like gorilla composting, because we have a huge yard, there's places to do this, and don't put gross stuff in the trash. You can go, we can go two weeks, but every week, I mean, so I hate to complain because I did complain more that I didn't I didn't even I don't roll the cans out there, I don't roll them back in or haven't been like she does she's been doing it every time, so but it's wild how exhausting that is.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, yeah. Well, I'm forgetful, so that doesn't help me. That's why I have two giant garbage cans. I pay for two on the weeks that I'm forgetful. I'm like, well, at least I have to go.
SPEAKER_00If it is gross, we totally could be putting bags in the big trash container and have three bags in there before we take it out. Like, yeah, right? You don't have to take the kitchen bag, yeah. Yeah, anyway, I I should not complain because this is still a hundred times better than what it was. Yes, yes, sorry, I that was definitely a change. Okay, focus on the thing. We were on he undermines your progress in life.
SPEAKER_02So tells you that you're incompetent, interferes with your independence, or you know, starts that fight right before something important, like a job interview or a big test, or some if you're in school, something important. And this actually happened with um well, I'm not gonna name any names, but I just started with Summit. I think I was like a month in, maybe. And um, I had like an in-person, like three-day or two-day meeting. And one of the days I was like um going out with my boss and my boss's boss and bosses and things like that. And so I was like, oh, I have a have a work dinner, you know, because I'm brand new. And you know what they said to me? They said they got mad at me, like almost like, oh, well, you have a work dinner. I guess I'll see you later then, or not, you know, and basically like be careful, like insinuating that they only that I was only gonna go out to dinner with my guy bosses and that they were gonna get me drunk. And I'm like, um, oh my gosh. I was just like, I work in HR. Yeah. What the what do you what do you think happens? I'm like, at most this dinner is gonna be an hour because everybody wants to get in and get out. It's a work dinner, like nobody.
SPEAKER_00Right. Well, and and it makes me think of the negging is another term that I think has been helpful in the last few years, like try undermining you to yourself.
SPEAKER_02Like, yeah, it made me feel so cheap. Like I would just be like so stupid, like, yeah, let's do shots, buses, and I'm like, who do you think I am? Right. Like, I am a professional, I have an actual real career, thank you. Like, right.
SPEAKER_00I mean, and that's I think that's projected insecurity in that particular situation. But what else is a controlling abusive man if not right insecure? Yes.
SPEAKER_02So I have a theory, um, because it's really, you know, the signs of that you're being abused. And I have I have a theory, and you know, it's not, it's not, I'm not gonna say it's 100%. I'm gonna say more often than not, I can spot a couple. I can spot an abusive man if it's especially if it's a couple. I can spot an abusive man a mile away. And here's how. And it's not by talking to them. It's like if a guy shows up and he's dressed like, that doesn't have to be, doesn't even have to be stylish, just nice. He's dressed nice, he's groomed, you know, he and they're doing something like they're out and about. Like maybe they're going and getting dinner, or maybe they're like at the grocery store, or maybe they're doing, they're out in the world. Does that make sense? And the guy is groomed, but the woman looks like shit. Like she's obviously wearing one of his old t-shirts, and this has nothing to do with like a woman's preferred style, meaning there's a way that she carries herself, there's a way that like oh yeah, it's like her hair is just like put up in a thing. She does not, it's like this woman, this isn't just an off day. Like, this is her everyday. And I'm like, but the guys like maybe like I said, they don't have to be in style, but they're like, those are those are name brand or nice sneakers or shoes, or you know what I'm saying? It's like he's put together, but she looks like absolute shit. He's I guarantee you, more often than not, I'm like, she is worn down, like she's not even into like normal self-care at this point.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, I have a theory. And then, and then the other one, I can tell by just meeting a guy. And this is just from, and that one, this one takes a little bit longer for it to kind of come out. But if you meet and you're like, because you know, I go out and there's social circles, but you meet a guy and he's a social dude, and he's always put together. And but you find out, oh, he's married. I'm like, oh, he's married, and then he talks about, like, oh yeah, I'm married. She just does, she's she likes to stay home, whatever. She just, you know, this isn't her scene, but you know, he's always out, and then you meet her, and she is that woman that is like downtrodden. And I'm like, oh, abusive. Yeah, perfect. Or cheater. Cheater. Well, that's part of it. Yeah, it is true. It is true. That's part of it. Yeah. So yeah, and he does talk about that. Like, um, it's not necessarily, it's like he gets into sex, but it's like he he was really talking about that sex is like triangulation, where like he's having sex with you, but then he's having sex with these other women, and he pits you guys against each other. And it's like, which is triangulation. So you're no longer mad at him, you're mad at these women, and he has you competing and fighting over him and mad at the, you know, oh that you know, she's just a hoe, and you know, just getting at each other's throats, and he's doing whatever he wants. And I'm like, oh my god, it's that's like Jerry Springer.
SPEAKER_00But I mean, I think it also, I mean, part of it is however long ago I first read this book, but just uh seeing the thing, like once you see it, it it opens your eyes to a lot more things, bad behaviors where you're like, Yeah, no, I I see why I should not put up with this. Yeah, yeah, when you're also talking to other women, which can backfire sometimes, kind of like the are we dating the same guy? How there's those awful women. I think they're maybe they're naive, but women who will tell the guy that he's been posted in there, and because they're the pick me girls or the cool girls or whatever, they're gonna do. But for the most part, once you see it, you're like, Oh, hell yeah, I'm gonna talk to the like when you had the chance when the the girlfriend of your ex came to you, and you had the opportunity to let her know or sympathize if nothing else. So I I'm mostly team woman. I mean, I know I know bad things happen in reverse, but over and over again he reminds us statistically, that's not the case. Yes, yes, and so because culturally there is a power imbalance.
SPEAKER_02Here's Lundy in for what you just said, and he goes, like, that's part of like how to stop the routine. He says, an abusive man lies a lot. Don't believe what he tells you about what is happening in his relationships with other women, including what those women have supposedly said about you. He's like, talk to them, he's like communicate directly with other women as much as possible, compare stories about what he's saying and doing so that he can't play you off each other. Yep. 100%.
SPEAKER_00Well, and then when he's doing these groups and he's an abuse counselor guy, he's always talks to the partner. Yep. Uh, which I think is awesome. Do you want to do the list of questions here? Because I think that's the like a practical take-home kind of thing.
SPEAKER_02Hold on, let's see.
SPEAKER_00Um you show signs of being abused, but then there's questions you can ask.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, hold on. I have that highlight, I have to get back to it.
SPEAKER_00I think on mine it's page 127, but I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I think it's right.
SPEAKER_00I don't know. Inventory has always helped to me. Kind of like question.
SPEAKER_02No, that's a face. Sorry. Let's see. What's it for? Oh, quit like the one is like, is the way he's treating me as abuse? Okay, yeah, we were on, we're we're going down that path. Like that's your projection. Undermines.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, this whole section is it abuse?
SPEAKER_02Does he denies what he does, what he does. Um he justifies his hurtful or frightening acts by saying that you made him do it. Like he was backed into a corner. Um, he touches you in anger or puts you in fear in other ways, like, you know, restrains you, grabs you, pushes you, pokes you, or threatens you, blocks the way.
SPEAKER_00Um I thought the poking thing was funny. Not funny, haha, but I never heard of that.
SPEAKER_02Well, you know, somebody like talking and they push you real hard or something.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I hadn't thought about it. I mean, that's where I've been lucky, whatever. I haven't had a no, I have encountered men that engage in abusive behavior. Uh, and that will use physicality. But yeah, I was like, oh, you're right. I mean, but I hadn't thought about a man poking a woman.
SPEAKER_02One of the ones I don't know that he talks about it, but I wanted to bring it up is like if you're like in the car with him and he gets mad, he starts driving, really scary, like that's that's putting you like that's putting you in fear. Like, and that's that's a that is violence. Like, that's that I hate that stuff. Um, and he talks about like let's see, he goes, he goes, I'm often asked whether physical aggression by women towards men, like such as a slap in the face, is abuse. And he says, the answer is it depends. Men typically experience women's shoves or slaps as annoying and infuriating rather than intimidating. So the long-term emotional effects are less damaging. So, and you know, it's like in that, in that, because he does try to answer at some point, and we'll get into it, but like um, like the whole idea of like, I mean, I've been in a relationship where I've slapped somebody, and then they want to play off, like, you hit me. I was like, I did not hurt, there's no way. Right. Like it, you know, he and and Lundy's like, that is sorry, that he's like, I don't agree with that. That's not abuse.
SPEAKER_00And right. I mean, can you like you were saying, do things that may that are bad behavior? Yes. But none of that excuses a man's abuse abusive behavior.
SPEAKER_02No, no, right.
SPEAKER_00I mean, it I mean, I think that's a big takeaway here.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. It's like we'll get to it. It'll be in here, but yeah. So uh the questions, let's see. I think it's like on mine it's 130. So are these I think these are the ones like, are you afraid of him?
SPEAKER_00Yes, yeah.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Are you getting distant from friends or family because he makes those relationships difficult? Been there, done that, where it's just like it's just not worth the fight.
SPEAKER_00So I just well, I mean, and on the on the addiction side, I experienced that. I was so annoyed because he never wanted to be around my family or friends, like some friends because he would party, but like he would big time avoid. It's a different indicator. Yeah, it is, but it but uh it just made me think of that. But yeah.
SPEAKER_02Is your level of energy and motivation declining or do you feel depressed? Is your self-opinion declining so that you are always fighting to be good enough to prove yourself? Do you find yourself constantly preoccupied with the relationship and how to fix it? Do you feel like you can't do anything right? Do you feel like the problems in your relationship are all your fault? Do you repeatedly leave arguments feeling like you've been messed with or can't figure out exactly why? And can't figure out exactly why. I think I read that right. Yeah, you just feel upside down, you don't stop trusting yourself. Right. You're like, I have no idea what's going on. And so it's like, yeah, on page 33, he's like, and it's talking about like the question 10. And they're talking about what if he's sorry? And he, you know, and Lindy's like, is he really sorry? You know, and it's like he goes into some good things, and it's like the idea that um, you know, sometimes it's like when he when it's like, oh, they're sorry, it's mostly they feel bad about a damaged image. Like maybe there was a witness, you know, or offended his own sense. Well, hold on, we go back to that. You know, a damaged image. And that doesn't have to be that there were other onlookers. It's you. You now don't see him. Like he, because he's these are people who put you on a pedestal when you first meet them, right? And it's like they kind of they they want that, they want to be on that pedestal. Like they're this, you know, guy. And so when they act out, they know that's not right, but it goes against how their their worldview of of them.
SPEAKER_00It's it's really weird because I I don't get the sense that abusers are proud of this behavior, but no, but they're they do have so many twisted justifications, yes, and they do think they're better than say if it's a man who doesn't, you know, like, oh, I'd never hit a woman, but engages in all this psychological bullshit. Yes, yeah, he has to feel like he still feels like, oh, I'm a good man because I don't hit my wife. Right.
SPEAKER_02Like they're offended, they've offended their own sense of how he should be. Right. Um, should be able to control his partner without, you know, again, it's the may they may, you know, you made me do it, but they ultimately think they should be able to control their partner without resorting to abuse. So you've offended them too, because God, we had to go this far for me to get this through your mind or, you know, get my point across or whatever it is. And I he I think Lindy said something really interesting. A man's, so like, let's say he's sorry, I'm so sorry, you know, a man's dramatic remorse shifts the center of the attention back to him. She may find herself reassuring him that she won't leave this. Thus, he repeats, thus, he reaps soothing attention as reward for his abusiveness. So it's like now instead of him being like, I'm so sorry, now he's like twisted it up, and now you're reassuring him, like, I promise I'm not gonna leave you. I still love you, you know, that sort of making him feel okay and secure, which I think is complete fucking bullshit. But but I've been there.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Uh let's see. I want to go back to page one, let's see. Oh, I thought it was I couldn't, I can't read it. Okay, so page one thirty four. So he talks about taking self-protective steps. And it's like, you know, many women, we talked about the wait and see, you know, well, just wait and see. When sign when these signs start to appear, I tell them, like talking about like this whole idea, like it's so hard to leave him right now because I love him. But if he gets worse, that will lessen my feelings for him. And then breaking up will be easier. And he talks about like how that is a dangerous trap because the longer you are with an abuser, the more destructive he becomes, and the harder it can be to get yourself out. So it's like basically the more time he has to tear you down, the more difficult it'll be for you to believe you even deserve better treatment.
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02Um, the more he had more time he has to hurt you emotionally, the more likely your energy and initiative are will diminish. So it gets harder to muster that strength. The more damage he does to your relationship with friends and family, the less support you will have for the difficult process. Ending that relationship. And the longer you've been living with his cycles of intermittent abuse, the kind loving treatment. Um, and kind uh so it's like that cycle of like kindness, loving treatment, you know, those little little times you get it, the more attached you are and likely to feel, you know, to like feel to him through a process as, oh, yeah, you'll be traumatically bonded. Like it's like that, yeah. You're gonna be in that cycle because you're living and breathing for like, oh, can we just get through this and get to the good part? So I don't know. It's I think that's so important. Okay, so I'm gonna go to page 145 and talk about the array of control because I thought these were really important because he kind of, you know, Lundy lists them out because they're like all kinds of like strategies that they use. Like not every abuser uses all of them, but it's like a pretty long list of like the things that they will do. So, of course, sarcasm right up there, ridicule, distorting what you say, um, distorting what happened in an earlier interaction, sulking, accusing you of doing what he does or thinking the way that he thinks. That's that projection. Um I have a funny projection story. So again, you know this person. I was in a relationship with him a couple years ago. Um he would get super jealous and accuse me of just wanting to go out and like talk to guys or whatever. And I'm like, you're right here. I'm not talking to anybody.
SPEAKER_01Right.
SPEAKER_02And he literally slightly he brought, he like had $300 and he was like, here's $300, you can go out and buy guys drinks tonight. I'm like, um, first off, that's not how it works. If I were gonna flirt, but right like, what are you even talking about? But uh it was just like it was so it hurt my feelings. I mean, now I look back and go, that is so freaking like ridiculous, like really, but and I left it there for like two months. Like it just sat there on my kitchen counter. And I was just like, you know, it was just God, it's so stupid. But it's like, how dare you like, you know, I he wanted to reduce me to like, I'm just this cheap, you know, want to get out there and you know, strip my stuff, buy some missive drinks. Like, what are you talking about?
SPEAKER_00That's so weird.
SPEAKER_02It's so weird, not surprising, but that's they project their own shit onto you. Oh, yeah. That's his shit. I'm like, oh, am I keeping you from buying all the young ladies at the bar drinks? I mean, go nuts. Um, using a tone of absolute certainty and final authority and defining reality. So that's the guy who knows better, like knows knows what's good for you better than you do. That one. Um, interrupting, that's a big one. We have a we have a friend in common who does that. Especially when you're arguing with them. Um, not listening, refusing to respond, laughing out loud at your opinion or perspective, turning your grievances around to use against you, changing the subject to his grievances, criticism that is harsh, undeserved, or frequent, um, provoking guilt, playing the victim, smirking, rolling his eyes, contemptuous facial expressions, yelling, out shouting, swearing, name-calling, insults, put downs, walking out. Oh, that one gets me. That's a triggering one. Um, towering over you, walking towards you in an intimidating, intimidating way, blocking the doorway. Um, let's see, other forms of physical intimidation, like getting too close when he's angry, threatening to leave you, and threatening to harm you. So it's like that, it's like just like the silent treatment, walking out, you're like, you're trying, you're like, maybe a disagreement comes up, you're like, hey, da-da-da. And they just leave. Yeah. And you're like, well, that's that control. Like you learn, don't ask for anything, don't bring anything up because now they're just gonna leave and do no, you know, who knows what. So yeah. I think those I like I like the like the the tactile examples because yes, yeah. Um, and then he talks about like the cycle. Like, what are the the abusive the cycle? What does that look like? So he talks about like that tension stage. So you're probably thinking everything's okay, but he's collecting negative points about you. He's like collecting infractions, whether they're real or false, he's collecting them, these little infractions that you you have done. And then once he has enough of these collected resentments, you know, then it's like now you deserve punishment. And that he calls that the eruption. And then after he's got it all out and he's done whatever has happened, then it's all hearts and flowers. So it's a fresh start for him. He feels good and you feel worse. And then it's like, then that's that love bombing, and you're just like, we're back to this stage, you know, where you're for the abused person in it, it's like, okay, he's really learned his lesson this time, and he's back to being that charming, here he is, you know. He's really sorry. And maybe you're getting some much deserved attention, which is probably true, but uh now you're caught in this cycle. Let's see, what page? I'm on one page 153. Oh, too far. Not far. So one of the things that I thought that he said for me, and I feel like there's people out here that need to hear it, because Lindy, he's like, he's telling you like these are abusive things, but he's also telling you, like, hey, in a healthy relationship, this is what it looks like. And he talks about, he says, your happiness in a relationship depends greatly on your ability to get your needs and to be heard and to be taken seriously. Which sounds like, oh duh, but it's it's not surprising how how many women like I feel like again, they've been they've had the silent treatment, they've had the walkout, they've had the they've been yelled at, they've had so many things where they're just like I I guess I'll just keep this to myself. Just you know, that walking on eggshells, like don't rock the boat, just you know, keep it as is. Um he also goes into because it's like part of this puzzle is how the relationship how this type of relationship benefits the dude. Cause it's like, well, why would you want to, you know what I'm saying? It's like, because you know, you do kind of read this, I'm like, why would someone even want to be like this?
SPEAKER_00Right.
SPEAKER_02You know? And um so he kind of lists out those things like um, number one, it's power and control. That's the big one. Um, getting his way, especially when it matters to him. Um, someone to take his problems out on, like he always has someone to vent to, and he gets to do this because he's not gonna do this at work, trust me.
SPEAKER_00Right. Which I think he's so good at calling out the oh, I just I just lost it. I lost, you know, I lost control or I blacked out, or because you're not choosing to do this to your mom. Nope. You're not choosing to do this to your boss. Yeah, it's it's not just like, oh, suddenly you blow up. Right. You're you're making choices, you're giving yourself permission.
SPEAKER_02He has chosen a he has a direction. He knows he can direct all of it to you. Yeah. Um, it's free labor for for for from it says free labor from her, leisure and freedom for him. So it's like basically this is what he says, like the firstens. No abusive man does his share of the work in a relationship. He may take advantage of his partner's hard work, like keeping the house, preparing the meals, caring for the children, managing all the little details of life. Or if he's one of those few abusers who carries his weight in these areas, then he exploits her emotionally, instead, sucking her drive attention, nurturing, and support and returning only a trickle. So it's that again, just siphoning off. Yep. Yep. Um, being the center of attention with priority given to his needs. Like everything is around him. Right. So it's like all she's always thinking about like he's like this, you know, a puzzle to put together. You know, if I just do it this way, or if I do all if I figure it out, you know, that's that is attention, 100%. Um, financial control for sure. Ensuring that his career, education, or other goals are prioritized. We talked about that. Um, the public status of partner and for father without the sacrifices, like he gets it.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah, I call this like the dad of the year with the little trademark emoji. Yes. But whatever, because yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm a dad.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so the the ones that post the like the every other weekend dads that post online that that every other weekend that they're with their kids, like, look at us doing things because I'm the best dad. So I automatically think the opposite. I'm like, why why do you feel like you have to keep trying to tell us that? Who are you trying to convince?
SPEAKER_02Yes, who, yeah. It's that appearance, it is. It is it's a status, yeah. Um, the approval of his friends and relatives. So this is interesting. An abuser often chooses friends who are supportive of his abusive attitudes. On top of that, he may come from an abusive family. In fact, his father or stepfather may have been his key role model for how to treat a female partner. If these are his social surroundings, he gets strokes for knowing how to control his partner, for putting her in her place from time to time. That one disturbs me so bad. It's just, I don't know. That one, I don't know. It's just, it's so far out of the realm of like how I think or like what I thought like a relationship should be. Does that make sense?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, but it's also not surprising, like how many men learn to be men. Like that's how that's how you're a real man, is if you can you're the king of the castle.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, you don't let her talk to you like that, or you know. Right. Yeah. Um, and then of course, it's the double standards. So an abusive man subtly, subtly, I can't say that word today, or over overtly imposes a system in which he is exempt from the rules and standards that he applies to you. He may allow himself to have occasional affairs because men have their needs. But if you go so much as to gaze at another man, you're a whore. He may scream in arguments, but if you raise your voice, you're hysterical. He may pick up one of your children by the ear, but if you grab your son and put him in time out for punching you in the leg, you're a child abuser. So it's like there's all these double standards. And I hate, I feel like I've been in relationships with so many people. I'm a double standard magnet. I'm like, ugh, I hate that. So those are those. So yeah, hold on. And then it's like, I really kind of like, you know, I feel like the violence is like I kind of skimmed over. I was like, uh, I don't know. I mean, I know it's important to think about, it's important to talk about like signs of a person that might become violent. And I think we've talked about that as far as like, um, you know, and we've just kind of touched on it, like trapping you in a room, raised a fist as if he was gonna hit you, ever thrown an object towards you, um, held you down or restrained you, um, shoved, poked, grabbed, has he threatened to hurt you? Those type of things. And actually, you know what? I have been. If someone I did, I was in an argument once, and someone with someone who's like, oh, I just I really wish I could punch you. And I was like, What?
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Like, even just saying that to me almost felt right like, um, okay, too far.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, like I say, I haven't been in a relationship with this, but I have encountered men that use physicality all the time. I mean, I don't know how many like professionally, I am conscientious of how I shake a man's hand when I first meet him because I do not put up with their weird shit. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are some occasions where like out of respect for my parents, if we're in certain social situations, I'm just like, whatever. Because I'm not, there's no consequence to me for that guy feeling like whatever. But when yeah, men will stand over me, or I mean, I just don't really let them get away with engaging that, or I'll move, or I'll, you know, assume maybe a more I like just not put up with it. Like, or move, I don't know how to explain it, but I manage uh to get out of stupid handshakes, or they're they're just asserting this weird dominance. It's entertaining to me now at this point in my life. Like you just make me laugh when you feel like you have to like put your hand over mine in a handshake. Like what right, okay, sir.
SPEAKER_02So this is where he he gets back into that like women engaging, like slapping someone. And I want to I want to read this part. So it's like the question is I slapped him in the face and he punched me and gave me a black eye. He says what he did was in self-defense. Is he right? And so Lindy says, No, it was revenge. He says, My clients often report having hit their partner's back so that she'll see what it's like, or to show her that she can't do that to me. That isn't self-defense, which means using the minimal amount of force needed to protect oneself. He uses her hitting him as an opening to let his violence show, therefore putting her on notice about what might happen in the future if she isn't careful. And then he says, then the question, the next question is, he says that I'm violent because I slapped him or shoved him in a c a couple times. Is he right? And the answer is, he says, if your action did not harm, frighten, or control him, they wouldn't fit my definition of violence. He labels you as violent in order to shift the focus on to what you are doing wrong, which will just lock you more tightly in his grip. However, I do recommend that you don't assault him again, um, as he might seize that on that as an excuse to injure you seriously. So it's, you know, it's like, and you know that, and I've heard women say it, and I've, you know, I've you've seen it before. So he says, some women persuade themselves that they are holding their own by using violence too, saying, I can take it, but I also can dish it out. But over time, you will find that you are the one being controlled, hurt, and frightened. So it's just like, you know, there men are just stronger than women, period.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02It I there is no way I'm going, I'm not going to hurt a man with my bare hands. It's just not, it's that's a joke. That's a joke. But no, I don't need to go hitting people. But you know, it does get complex because then I know as a person who has who takes accountability, I'm like, well, I did hit him. But it's not, it's it's just not the same thing. Now, should I do it? No. But um, and then it talks about like on page 174, he talks about sex. And I wrote down just I don't want to get too far into it, but it's like these were four points, and it was like the abuse of man and sex, it's for him. Meaning, he might give you maybe there's a little bit of like in what's in it for you, but it's mostly it's it's for him. Um, or she he thinks that she owes him sex, or that sex is a way to establish power and dominance, or he sees her as a sex object. It's just different ways that they view it. Like it, it's not like you're just you're really just a it's just not a way to connect and be like, you know, in a loving, healthy relationship and be intimate. It's it's a thing that you know, it's a it's a vehicle almost, um, which is kind of it's sad. It's kind of sad. You know, he talks about um, and then he talks about, let's see, how to get out 228.
SPEAKER_00Well, do we want to do um another part? I mean, like, there's still like there's so much, quite a bit to the book.
SPEAKER_02Okay, well, let's let's save the how to get out then.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, because I think I think that's a good shift. I know. Last week I kind of stopped you also, but okay.
SPEAKER_02Let me write like and let me put it in my notes though, so I know where I'm at.
SPEAKER_00I mean, this is a better um series than sex in the city, so there's that. I don't know though. There's there's something to glean from all of it, but I I just I do wish. I mean, we used to be the female mentor podcast, and this is some the principles in this book are things I wish I had known when I was younger, but I also really would love it for younger women to learn this sooner. Well, absolutely. So I I think it's important, and I and I I mean that's my justification partly for saying like let's take the time that we need to do it because we have it.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I like it. Let's do it. And plus, we didn't even get on to like because he has a whole section on how to, if you know someone, like you are friends with somebody or you have a family member, and he makes some super valuable points on how to help them. Yes, and how to and how to actually help them with their self-esteem and to learn and to trust themselves and not just like go at them, like, well, you should do this, and I would never do, you know, that's which is the most unhelpful thing.
SPEAKER_00Right. That you can do. So I want to dig into that. Yeah, we would there are there are a lot of practical takeaways that I did would like to get to, and but like I say, spend some time on.
SPEAKER_02Okay, I'm down, down to clown.
SPEAKER_00All right.
SPEAKER_02You want to get us out of here?
SPEAKER_00I do. This has been it makes what it makes, the podcast where we do what we want, and we're out.