Embark on an enlightening journey with us as we explore the path to justice in The Gambia with esteemed lawyer Abdoulie Fatty. Discover how a hybrid court is paving the way for accountability after the human rights violations committed under Yahya Jammeh's regime. This episode promises to uncover the intricate balance between reparations and criminal prosecutions, and the profound effects they have on society's healing and the rule of law. Together, we'll understand why justice is more than retribution; it's a cornerstone for building a future where such atrocities are relegated to the past.
The pursuit of justice is complex and multifaceted, and this conversation threads the needle through the challenges and innovations born from The Gambia's unique situation. We shine a light on the importance of public engagement and maintaining the momentum of transitional justice. Through this narrative, we reveal the necessity for transparent communication from the government and the urgency of involving living victims in the justice process. Our dialogue with Abdoulie Fatty offers a behind-the-scenes look at how the nation is mobilizing legislative reforms and establishing a Special Prosecutor's Office to cement the foundations for lasting change.
Finally, we address the critical role of the Truth, Reconciliation, and Reparations Commission (TRRC) in giving a voice to the voiceless. We discuss the essential steps being taken to ensure that the harrowing stories of victims are not forgotten but are used to educate and prevent future human rights violations. While the road to justice may be long, the episode emphasizes our collective responsibility to safeguard human rights and honour the courage of those who have spoken out. Join us as we affirm our commitment to a Gambia where reconciliation, reparations, and respect for all its citizens lay the groundwork for a resilient and just society.
Host - Isatou , Fatou and Lamin
Embark on an enlightening journey with us as we explore the path to justice in The Gambia with esteemed lawyer Abdoulie Fatty. Discover how a hybrid court is paving the way for accountability after the human rights violations committed under Yahya Jammeh's regime. This episode promises to uncover the intricate balance between reparations and criminal prosecutions, and the profound effects they have on society's healing and the rule of law. Together, we'll understand why justice is more than retribution; it's a cornerstone for building a future where such atrocities are relegated to the past.
The pursuit of justice is complex and multifaceted, and this conversation threads the needle through the challenges and innovations born from The Gambia's unique situation. We shine a light on the importance of public engagement and maintaining the momentum of transitional justice. Through this narrative, we reveal the necessity for transparent communication from the government and the urgency of involving living victims in the justice process. Our dialogue with Abdoulie Fatty offers a behind-the-scenes look at how the nation is mobilizing legislative reforms and establishing a Special Prosecutor's Office to cement the foundations for lasting change.
Finally, we address the critical role of the Truth, Reconciliation, and Reparations Commission (TRRC) in giving a voice to the voiceless. We discuss the essential steps being taken to ensure that the harrowing stories of victims are not forgotten but are used to educate and prevent future human rights violations. While the road to justice may be long, the episode emphasizes our collective responsibility to safeguard human rights and honour the courage of those who have spoken out. Join us as we affirm our commitment to a Gambia where reconciliation, reparations, and respect for all its citizens lay the groundwork for a resilient and just society.
Host - Isatou , Fatou and Lamin
Hello and welcome to the Victim Podcast. I am Lamin Fadera, your host for today's episode. Following 22 years of tyranny on the former president, yahya Jame, from 1994 to 2017, the government of the Gambia, under the leadership of Adama Baro, set up a troop commission to enquire the human rights violations that occur on the Jame's reign. The troop reconciliation and reparation commission enquiry found out that there were gross human rights violations in the past on the Yahya Jame's rule. How important is it for justice to be served to the victims of human rights violations?
Speaker 3:You look at this person who said he would rule Gambia for billions of years, somebody who was immensely powerful and did whatever he wanted to do. People disappeared with whispers of instructions. So for that person now to spend a certain remaining part of his life for example, if there were any outcome in a prison, shows you that the message that will send. But also to the victim, you know that this person has done this. Now they are in prison for what they did to you.
Speaker 1:Some of the types of crime that took place on the Yahya Jame's regime. Is it going to be easy for Jame and his allies to be prosecuted without domestic laws?
Speaker 3:These are international crimes, but these crimes do not form part of our criminal code or any of our criminal legislation, so therefore they cannot be prosecuted under our law. So if you look at assault and torture, it's like they are night, because even the legal implications torture is seen at the international level as such a serious crime. A serious crime. It's got this international label and it is one of those crimes that cannot be derogated from. So torture is one where, regardless of how serious it is, so no matter what a person has done, they cannot be tortured.
Speaker 1:So if serious crimes like torture and other crimes cannot be prosecuted under our domestic laws, what process does the Gambian need to have the international label?
Speaker 3:So the process now would be twofold. It's the establishment of the hybrid court. The hybrid would now deal with the international crimes. So crimes like torture, enforce, disappearance, crimes against humanity, because these cannot be prosecuted under our laws, because they do not form part of our laws.
Speaker 1:But that's where hybrid comes in what is a hybrid court and how important is a hybrid court during this process.
Speaker 3:Hybrid would be a combination of domestic law and international law, and this is why we're setting up this special accountability mechanism bill, which will now set the stage for parliament to, you know, the Gambia government and echo us to sign a treaty. That treaty will now give the legal basis for the establishment of the hybrid court. The hybrid court will now have those inbuilt legal power to now prosecute. So hybrid, basically, is the opportunity to prosecute crimes that cannot be ordinarily prosecuted under our domestic law.
Speaker 1:With these and a lot more interesting information you will hear in today's victim podcast, a special interview I saw to Jeremy had with lawyer Abdulai Fati. Don't forget this podcast is brought to you by Democracy International in support of the Gambia Bar Association for the post-TRRC criminal accountability process. This is the victim podcast. Welcome back to the show. In case you are listening to the podcast for the first time, welcome on board. The objective of the victim podcast is to raise awareness about the transitional justice beyond the work of the TRRC and highlight the importance of implementing the recommendations of the TRRC report. This podcast will create a platform for victims, civil society organizations and NGOs to ensure co-race awareness of the non-recurrence of human rights violations and the never-agent campaign is achieved in a form of a podcast. You can follow the victim podcast on Twitter, facebook or, better still, on Instagram. Let's go into the details of our interview. The victim podcast Aizadou Jame had with lawyer Abdulai Fati.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to the Victims Podcast. This series in collaboration with the DI, which is Democratic International, which they are giving support to the Gambia Biosoucetion and we are going to talk about accountability mechanisms and the importance of accountability in the transitional justice process. And we have a special guest today on the show and you would hear from him. He will introduce himself and tell you who he is and the role that he's playing with the Gambia Biosoucetion and generally in the transitional justice process. Welcome on the show.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, Aizadou. Thank you for inviting me. I am Abdulai Fati. I am a private legal practitioner. I am the Secretary General of the Gambia Biosoucetion. I am heavily involved in Gambia's transitional justice journey. I was the legal consultant at DTRRC. I was responsible for my colleagues compiling the final report that was submitted to the president.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, mr Fati. As you can hear from Mr Fati, he has versed experience in terms of transitional justice and he had played a key role with the recommendations of HRC, which is now the main conversation that we are currently having in the DTRRC process of the country and now we are going to post DTRRC and it's important that there's a government's white paper, which have a lot of recommendation in terms of what had happened, and the government has approved over 95% of these recommendations. So, mr Fati, I really want you to tell me a little bit more about most of the things that maybe a little. I know you can't give us all the recommendations that were made by the DTRRC, but can you give us recommendations that were made in the areas of accountability? And I think this is something that people really need to know, because when you talk about accountability mechanism, how many people understand accountability mechanism and the importance of accountability in the transitional justice process?
Speaker 3:So, for the DTRRC recommendations in respect of accountability, there are specific recommendations in relation to reparations to basically compensate victims of human rights abuses and violations that are caught between 1994 to January 2017, basically on the Japanese regime.
Speaker 3:That also included specific recommendations for prosecution criminal prosecution, criminal accountability, prosecution of individuals deemed to bear the greatest responsibility.
Speaker 3:So, if you look at the former AFPRC junta members I think all of them there were recommendations for a certain level of criminal accountability for different violations that are caught during the period ranging from, for example, november 11th, the April 10th and 11th, but later on, there were also recommendations in respect of the activities of the junglers and what they did. So, apart from the AFPRC council members, you have members of the military, members of the over-security agencies and forces, as well as some high-level individuals who were specifically adversely mentioned as people who had played a role, directly or indirectly, in committing really serious human rights abuses and violations and therefore those specific individuals ought to be prosecuted in court for what they did. And the white paper, which was published or issued on the 25th of May 2022, accepted those recommendations. So I think Gough meant particularly the Ministry of Justice and the Attorney General's chambers, in collaboration with ECHOAs are going through the process of establishing the institutions and the structures that will ultimately respond to prosecuting these individuals, who would be recommended by the TRC for criminal accountability.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, mr Fati.
Speaker 2:I think that was very clear because I think these are some of the things that a lot of people fail to understand when it comes to accountability mechanism and I think, walking in the victims, with the victims.
Speaker 2:Most of the time, these are questions that they do ask. When we, or sometimes when we ask questions around accountability, what accountability really means to you as a victim, most of them would prefer, okay, instead of me having my perpetrator been prosecuted, why not I get my reparations being paid to me? And I think this is the reason being this they really don't understand why accountability is important in transitional justice process in as much as reparations should be paid, but also it's important that for accountability to happen which the TRC mantra is obviously never again, and I think for us to have never again there needs to be accountability mechanism. So you've been walking on the TRC and had vast experience. You're also a lawyer and might possibly walk on the accountability mechanism process. What will you tell a victim out there who would prefer getting other forms of, let's say, reparations or getting other mechanism that has to do with the TJ than just leaving accountability out?
Speaker 3:I said, that is a very, very good point. Observation and question. I am involved also on behalf of the Gambibah Association or in my role as a member of the Gambibah Association. In October 2022, we organized a high level workshop and conference to look at how we basically create the roadmap for establishing the hybrid court and other mechanisms for, ultimately, for criminal accountability. And more recently, at the end of November, at the end of October or end of November 2023, the Bar Association, again with ABA, undp and, I think, di, organized another workshop in which, within the likes of SRFAL, spoke. Again, this was to look at the special prosecutor's office and the SA and some SAM, the special accountability mechanism. They've been drafted. We're confident that early part of this year those bills will be passed into law by parliament In terms of giving it the legislative footing it requires to set aside the prosecutor's office to investigate for the ultimate prosecution, which will now be carried out under the SAM, which is the special accountability mechanism.
Speaker 3:So, to go back to your point and observation and question about reparations, which is financial compensation in the way for the harm that the victims suffered, I am naturally a human rights activist and I feel victims really ought to be compared what I mean, given adequate reparations that commiserate with the violations and abuses and the harm that they suffered physical, psychological, mental and the rest of it. So that is very, very important, but equally equally, the criminal accountability part of it, which means the judicial process, prosecution of individuals or something of that sort, is equally important. It's important for the following reasons why If we see never again mantra is you know, if it has to have meaning, not only for Gambia but for our sub region and region in general and to end the circle of impunity, then people have to be criminally liable for their actions. It is only through those punitive measures can we properly address our really dark history of serious perpetrators of human rights abuses and violations. So victims ought to understand that, inasmuch as reparations in terms of money is important and I think that it's important it goes beyond that institutional reforms as well to make.
Speaker 3:So some of these things do not repeat themselves, looking after their psychological wealth and and no longer is important but at the same time, certain individuals, for example Yahya Yame and certain junglers, no matter how you look at it they have to be responsible for what they did and you can only do that by taking them through a judicial process. They have to be charged, taken to court, evidence presented against them for what they did. They will also have a right to reply, to present their defense and for the judges to ultimately but the importance of that is one, the symbolism of itself. So, for example, if it were Yahya or some high-profile junglers who owned Yahya, yahya may wear powerful, but now to see somebody like it in a dock in a court, what the message that it will send, particularly people who you know, people in power and people who are in positions of power and authority, is that the rule of law and respect to human rights is important, because if you don't do the right thing, one day you could be in that dock and be facing a similar fate. So the symbolism of itself, the picture it sends, is that when you exercise in public power and authority, explicitly things that concern human rights, you have to be careful.
Speaker 3:But also, if somebody you know, assuming Yahya Yame, was prosecuted and convicted and sentenced to prison, you know, you look at this person who said he will rule Ghambe for billion years, somebody who was immensely powerful and did whatever he wanted to do. People disappeared with whispers of instructions. So for that person now to spend a certain remaining part of his life, for example, if that were to outcome in a prison, shows you that you know the message that will send, but also to the victim. So you know that this person has done this. Now they are in prison for what they did to you. So that goes hand in hand with financial reparation, because for some people and this is not clear for some people yes, money, you know, and that is equally important. You know, people have to be, you know, given something, at least to restore them to, you know, certain dignity.
Speaker 3:But for certain victims, sometimes it's not even about the money, it's about the principle that this person has done this to me. So is the truth of it the truth of it? Ie let the person pay for what they did. Pay not in terms of money, but pay in terms of punishment, in terms of going through court convicted, even if they were to spend a day in prison.
Speaker 3:Those victims are satisfied that this person would now have undergone a process where they would have realized that a judicial process has now condemned them to what they did. So, victims, it is important they understand that this is not only for them, but this is a feature of generations as well, that if you want never again, if you want to end the culture of impunity in this country and in the subregion and the region in general for serious human rights violations, you know it is important that there is the principle of criminal accountability, where people are prosecuted for what they did, you know. So you know that those two strands of accountability are very important and they complement each other, and it is important victims understand these dynamics and the relationship between these two forms of justice.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, mr Fati. I think that is very clear. Mr Fati has just break down, really, the importance of accountability. If you are a victim out there and hearing from Mr Fati, and I think now this is a conversation that we will continue to have, because accountability is something that we really need in the transitional justice process. When we talk about never again, we need to ensure that people who commit these crimes are at least brought to justice, to have some form of justice and, as he rightly mentioned, for some victims they need that satisfaction to see at least this person who had committed these crimes, this person who had violated my right, is going to court and then the court will take its due course to say you guilty of these crimes that you've done to this individual, and I think it's very clear, as you've stated.
Speaker 2:So my the other question that I would like to that are the other part of the question that I would like you to we talk about, is more around. Let's say, for example, you know you've mentioned that this SOP would be set up right, so looking at our like, which is the supreme laws of the Gambia, which is the constitution of the Gambia, so I would really want to understand, and the listeners would really want to understand what will be the connection, because I know that in our laws, in the supreme laws, which is the constitution, there are certain violations that we don't have, like we don't have the mandate to prosecute certain violations within that constitution. So how would this mechanism like feel in that gap, that gap that we lack in our constitution? That is one thing that I want you to just clarify.
Speaker 3:I said, that's a very, very important because these things are a little bit complicated and technical. So it's important that victims and the public understand the process so well. This is the reason why there is also delay, in as much as it is important that we now, you know, get working in terms of, you know, physically starting this process of accountability. But you know there are complex areas Crimes against humanity, torture and crimes like enforced disappearance. These are international crimes, but because these crimes have not been domesticated, I mean these crimes do not form part of our criminal code or any of our criminal legislation, so therefore they cannot be prosecuted under our law. So, for example, for torture, perhaps the closest we will have here will be something like grievous bodily harm or actual bodily harm or assault. If you look at assault and torture, it's like they are night, you know, because even the legal implications, torture is seen at the international level as such a serious crime, such a heinous crime, but it's got this international label and it is one of those crimes that cannot be derogated from. So torture is one where, regardless of what, how serious it is, so no matter what a person has done, they cannot be tortured under no circumstance, so even right to life. You know the courts can say, for example, this person is in so much pain that it's better that they die and they may give an order for, you know, for that person to be injected or for that person to for life. Support must into to the court, can even your. Your right to life is not absolute, but torture, the right not to be tortured, is absolute. It cannot be so I'm giving you. So when you substitute that with things like assault, you really undermine in the severity of, of of torture, crimes against humanity as well. And you know these are, these are now emerging global crimes. So the process now would be twofold Is the establishment of the hybrid court. The hybrid would now deal with the international crimes, so crimes like torture and forced disappearance, crimes against crimes against humanity, because these cannot be prosecuted under our laws because they do not, they do not form part of our laws. But that's where hybrid comes in. So hybrid would be a combination of domestic law and international law. And this is why we we setting up this some, this special accountability mechanism bill, which will now set the stage for parliament to you know, gambe government and an echo us to sign a treaty. That treaty will now leak, give the legal basis for the establishment of the hybrid court. The hybrid court will now have those in inbuilt legal power to now prosecute. So hybrid, basically, is to offer us the opportunity to prosecute crimes that cannot be ordinarily prosecuted under our domestic law, and it will have that basis because Parliament and echoes would have given that legal basis and jurisdiction to do that.
Speaker 3:So now if you are a GMF example, we're charged with crimes against humanity and some individuals charged with torture and enforced disappearance. They can be prosecuted under the hybrid system for those crimes and you're now really taking it to the international level and international standards. So for some of the other offenses, like murder and rape and the others not, so you couldn't. You can still prosecute rape as an instrument that was used to really coerce and intimidate and like really violate women. So you know some of those will still be, but I'm just saying, for example, rape can be prosecuted under our law because that is, you know, in the sexual offenses act as well as the criminal court murder, manslaughter and some of the other crimes. So you're going to have this two-tier system. So probably for the more serious crimes will be prosecuted at the hybrid level the international crimes and for the high level perpetrators, so for the medium and junior you know, relatively junior level perpetrators, they will now be prosecuted under the special division of the high court under the laws of the Gambia. So you will have these parallel mechanisms though the hybrid, which is international slash domestic, but with the international character, and then the domestic court, which will deal with crimes that are ordinarily prosecutable under our domestic and domestic law. So that is going to be the process. It is complicated because the supreme law of the Gambia, there are certain stuff that you can do, you cannot do, when you look at our rules in terms of admissibility and some other legal stuff. I don't want to make these conversations in very technical, but the hybrid will now overcome some of those challenges. So the hybrid will make it allow us to prosecute and bypass some of those hurdles and challenges that we will face if they were prosecuted under a domestic legal framework.
Speaker 3:But also the hybrid sort of, since it is international character, even the judges would be composition of Gambian judges as well as foreign judges from the Commonwealth. So you may have, for example, the trial chamber. You may have, for example, if you, for example, had a composition of three judges. Well, it would be more than that policy. But you may have two Gambians and one foreign person, or you may have two foreign judges and one Gambian and you'll have the appellate court, which will be the appeals chamber, and there you'll have a composition of both Gambian and foreign judges. You'll have the president of the court, who may also be a foreign. So the president will almost be the chief justice of the court, of the hybrid court, who may also be a foreign person. You have the registrar, who may be a Gambian or a non-Gambian. You would have court clerks and over court staff, still a composition of Gambian, non-gambian.
Speaker 3:So the essence of that is, at the international stage, is to give this court, this hybrid court, more prominence but more credibility as well, since it is a combination of domestic and international staff and law. For example, if a judge may be a Ghanian or Nigerian or Senegalese, well, I'm guessing they come when I come from the Anglophone regions or Sierra Leonean or Liberian. They don't have any bearing with what happened here, they're not going to be part of, but it gives them that independence that, for example, us Gambians, we are all victims one way or the other. So foreign judges will come. They don't understand about what happened. So for them, they are independent individuals who are there to listen to the facts and the law and they make determinations strictly on the law and the facts, without any emotional attachment, since they are non-Gambian. So it gives it more and that is why we will get some support from our international partners, from the EU and from the UN, in terms of the monetary set up these processes, because of the credibility of it as well.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, mr Vati. I think myself you've taught me a lot when it comes to because these are questions that we always get in the field. Victims would ask us okay, victims would say in our laws we can prosecute these things. We can prosecute, for example, and for separances, crimes against humanity, we can prosecute extraducer executions and things like that. How can then this process be able to ensure that these crimes are prosecuted? And I think you've clearly explained that. How would this work?
Speaker 2:And I think we are now going to wrap up a little bit because it's not supposed to be a long conversation. So, basically, my final question would be so, most of the time, okay, in the Gambia, here, right after the TRRC, right after the hearings at the commission, you see how everybody was interested in just following what is happening. You know what the victims and alleged perpetrators are coming to say. Right, there was so much public interest in the process, but as we now get into the post-TRRC, you could see that there's that lack of public interest in the conversation. More like the conversation is just within the circle of people that are in the transitional justice space. So what would you say with regards to there needs to be, it needs to be a public conversation, a national conversation.
Speaker 2:I would say, like what would you say to people that maybe might not be part of the space of the transitional justice, but they are Gambians, and I think this is something that I think should be, should be out there for people to know, in as much as you're not affected doesn't mean you're not part of the process or you're not part of the conversations, and I think it's something that we all, as Gambians, should be a part of in as much as, even if you're affected or not affected, but it has to be something that there needs to be. That public interest, there needs to be conversations around these issues every now and then for people really to know that we are part of this. We are Gambians and it's important, it's in our history books as Gambians.
Speaker 3:I said, that's a very, very good observation and point, because all Gambians. So victimhood goes beyond somebody who's you know like, physically gone through, like been victimized. If you look at our country, if you look at our laws, the number of times they are, they may change the constitution well, through parliament. If you look at how he encroached into the independence of the judiciary, the minister, at only general chambers, the prisons, the police, the security sector, everything. So he affected every sector and fiber of our society. So that means we are all victims. But when it comes to like in terms of civil and political rights violations, you know some people, you know our victims would differ because you know people's parents were killed, you know people were subjected to rape, torture and over. But collectively we are all participants and we are all observers in this. But you're very right, if you, you know this, the conversation about the TJ process and criminal accountability and reparations and everything, I think whatever is going on is only confined to those between the TJ space. You talk to people who are highly, highly educated but they wouldn't know anything about this. Because, you know, because probably there is not adequate dialogue and communication between government and people, between government and victims, there is a lot happening.
Speaker 3:The Atoni General and the Minister of Justice was in Abuja two weeks ago or less, still working on this. You know the Air Force and Gambia establishing, you know, sign a treaty to establish the court. So that is ongoing. I know there is a lot of work ongoing but at the same time as well, you have victims like Nogawin Jai and Sukai Dahaba and the others, who are still alive but are gradually losing the ability, the difficulty, the mind. So it is very important that this process of accountability is really expedited. It has to start as soon as possible so that more and more victims are alive when it starts and possibly they can participate in the process as witnesses. That is one, but also what it will do is because, naturally, the DRRC has ended. Victims and the general public have seen much. So people are now concerned. In the silence means that perhaps government is not doing enough. There is a lot of work ongoing. But whatever government is doing as well, the Atoni General's team, as the Minister of Justice, I think, also need to be communicated to the general public. We need to have more and more conversations about this so that because if victims themselves are losing faith and confidence in the system because of delay. You can imagine the general public, who do not know anything about this and do not have regular conversations about this. So we need to really start having these serious engagements and conversation to really rearsaw victims of the complex nature of this.
Speaker 3:But what government is doing as well? The money that are required, the legal process that you have to set in place to make sure that? Because what happens is you also have to make sure that the legislative framework works, because we will go in court and then Mr X is charged with enforced disappearance and they turn around and say the court lacks jurisdiction because that is not when the crime was been committed in 2006. We still don't have these things in our criminal, in our statute books, and the treaty has just been signed, maybe in 2024. But you are now prosecuted for a crime, so they will raise jurisdictional challenges, happen a lot in the case in Senegal, back and forth. So that is why we also have to make sure that the legislative process is right, because you are anticipating that lawyers are going to make complaints, they're going to challenge some of these things, so you want to make it as watertight as possible in anticipation of those challenges, because otherwise you don't want to start the process and two years of it nothing happens. It's all about lawyers challenging the jurisdiction of the court itself on admissibility of evidence and the jurisdiction of the court to even charge, to even prosecute or even try these individuals on the substantive charges of crimes of insecurity and torture and the others Notwithstanding.
Speaker 3:I think it also boards well for government to communicate this technical stuff that some of the delay is not by design but it's simply by default because of you have to make sure you get this right and it's better there is delay and you get it right than rush it and get it wrong when we are ultimately in court. So that is one part. But also I think we shouldn't pretend, like recently Osman Sonko in prosecuted in Switzerland Gambians when they're by law in Germany last year. So when victims also say this and they're thinking what about our own government, particularly our own involvement before the International Court of Justice in the Mayor Marengi case, and they say charity begins at home, justice delayed, just denied in a way. So I think we need to really speed things up.
Speaker 3:But there has to be a deliberate strategic communication so that not only victims that all government, both here in the diaspora know exactly what is going on, because it is the lack of this. I know the minister is engaging the victims and the you guys, but you don't speak for all victims, okay, and you don't speak for the whole of the West Coast region or the whole of KM, so even the communication is only limited. So I think we need to come out, organize press conferences, invite all the media. The minister tells them what is on the thing, so that victims are reassured, but that they haven't forgotten about it. It's just because of the technicality of the process. But all of this is done and what I say, victims they are not only direct victims, but indirect victims, the entire Gambian population, who are both in this country and in the body. Remember, the victims also go beyond Gambians. You have West African, senegalese, nigerians, ghanians and the others, but also even you take it away from that even the international community.
Speaker 3:But let me tell you something Our TRRC has been one of the best in the world. I can tell you that the New York Times and the others experts have really looked at what they are, I see, and said it was the most accessible and in terms of substance, you know. So we have managed. There are PhD students doing studies on our TRRC, so we have really, our TRRC, done an excellent, excellent work. So we have to build on that so that our hybrid court, just like the Sierra Leone special court and the, so that ours, 10 years from now, the world will look at our TRRC and the subsequent judicial process mechanisms to say, well, gambia really sets the bar, you know. So I think we need to capitalize on this and seize the momentum and the opportunity and rewrite history in terms of justice for the victims, justice for all Gambians and justice for Gambia itself, because primarily, is Gambia itself as a country that was violated on the 22nd July 1994.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, mr Fatih. I could not agree more. The reason why I asked this question was just recently. I was on this platform and somebody speaking said that the TRRC recommendation they would fend like it didn't go anywhere. Basically, what is the government doing? Like it's like the TRRC had happened and nothing is happening and nothing had happened. So when I had that and I had to come in, I sent a request and they added me.
Speaker 2:Then I said I told them what is happening behind the scenes and a lot of people were surprised. They said, okay, the government, all this had happened. You've said that there was a donor conference, there's a setting up of the Special Prosecutor's Office, the government, they've already hired these lawyers, and so for me I felt I think that the awareness raising needs to be more In terms of just involving every Gambian and those people that were on those platforms, I would say, where they were not directly affected, but they were interested because they followed the process of the TRRC and now TRRC had ended they're not seeing anything. And I think one of them even said that like he had been going on social media, he had never seen anything on post-TRRC processes on social media. Then I said well, the Ministers of Justice, they have a Twitter page and then they do post. And he was like not everybody has access to social media, you only have the elite fully on Twitter.
Speaker 2:Exactly, he said how can they just bring it down to the grassroots level and then have series of radio programs and also do press conferences, Like you said, press releases, to say this is what we've done? I know there's some technicalities in said anything, but they really need to explain these things, which I think it's a good thing. And also I think they also hired a communication consultant to develop a communication strategy, which is also important.
Speaker 3:The TGA advisor known over an hour, very own, really able and competent, Exactly I represent Exactly.
Speaker 2:So I think we can now maybe wrap up. So what will be your final words generally to tell Gambians, and also maybe buttress more on the importance of accountability mechanisms in the transitional justice process of the Gambia?
Speaker 3:I'll keep this very brief the TGA process for Gambia. We still we still rebuilding our country. We're still going through this TGA process. A lot has happened but there's still a lot more to do. I think it is important to yeah, I really compromised the 1997 constitution. It is. I know conversations are ongoing. It is important that the draft constitution is brought back to the table.
Speaker 3:If you look at legislative reforms, here and there we've changed, but there has to be a broader, more holistic change in terms of our legal framework. So certain laws, public order act and the others this all part of our transitional justice. Some of these are very old and they are anti-democratic in a way or not human rights friendly. So so generally, these are all part of the broader transitional justice, of rebuilding our country. So we all have a stake in this. You know I all I can say is you know, the TRSE was wonderful in giving the victims platform to come and speak about their victimhood, for the perpetrators to also come and admit and tell us what happened, because for the most part we used to deny that Gambians were not that bad to do certain stuff. Okay, but we saw our own brothers, cousins, uncles and fathers coming on TV and admitting to these things. So that has now sort of like debunked those myths that we're not so. So we really have to continue that wonderful work to.
Speaker 3:In a way there's still a lot, you know, reparations and all these other things as well.
Speaker 3:Still reconciliation at the local level.
Speaker 3:Sgbv victims need special attention in terms of the trauma that they ongoing. But in terms of the subject matter of today's discussion, particularly criminal accountability, it is important that we move a little bit faster so that we start this process, not only because not only starting the process, but because some victims that are needed to successfully prosecute may not be available if it takes much longer. So it's important that that you you get something now. It may not even be the full here, but at least have the structures in place so that some of these things structure in place where individuals will have been charged, so even without the thing coming publicly starting, you can begin to take their statements on off in court and because examine, so that even if those victims die years later, at least you will now have something formally, because their statements right now are not formal like document in terms of admissibility in court. So really have to speed up a little bit so that, so that, importantly, we restore victims and gambit's faith and trust in this whole, in this whole process.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much, mr Fatih. As he rightly said, things need to be fast-tracked to ensure that victims that are still alive would be part of the process, because a lot of victims had died due to the human rights violations. That is meted on them. And thank you very much, mr Abulay Fati from the Gambia Bar Association. It was a pleasure having you on the victim podcast to discuss accountability mechanisms, and you can always we'll have more episodes coming your way with the GBA through the support of DI, and thank you so much for honoring our invitation on the victim podcast.
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