Bishops, Bullet, and Bobby Fischer: Daniel Lona Interviewed By Omar Mills, Part II

120 Daniel Lona is interviewed by guest host Omar Mills, fellow club player, in the second part of a special episode celebrating The Chess Experience podcast's third anniversary.

Three years ago, Daniel Lona launched The Chess Experience with a simple yet unique mission: to create chess content by and for adult improvers - a rare thing in the chess world at that time. 

In this episode, he discusses:

• What makes chess "real"? Is a 3-minute blitz game fundamentally the same as a 5-hour classical battle?
• Finding a balance between growing chess through Esports vs preserving traditional formats.
• Daniel’s #1 chess wish (and all of his answers to the rapid-fire questions he asks his guests.)

PLUS: Get a chance to win Omar Mills' new Chessable course (with full video) this week: "Chess Destiny: Lessons from an Adult Improver and His Coach.”

Get info on how to enter to win by following Daniel Lona on Twitter.

How You Can Support the Pod:

Join this show’s Patreon called “Podcast Perks” and get benefits like: 

• Submitting questions to guests
• A shout-out of your name on the pod
• Vote on future topics/guests 
• Exclusive behind-the-scenes updates about the show
• DM me any month for a brief chat on chess or episodes

Click here to join the Patreon for The Chess Experience.

Or you can…

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>> Neither? How about checking out Daniel's chess.com profile? Witness his countless, embarrassing blitz losses. He even accepts some friend requests. (Ad)

Transcript

Introduction and Show Sponsor

Daniel 0:05

Hey , welcome to the chess experience On this show . It's all about helping adult improvers . I want to make learning chess easier for you to navigate and I also want you to have a more fun experience along the way . I'm your host , daniel Lona , a fellow chess amateur . Let's get to it .

Daniel 0:25

This show is sponsored by chesscom , the world's largest chess community . One of chesscom's most popular features is called Game Review . This feature weaves together a lot of benefits . In one post-game analysis , for example , you can see how accurately you played , whether you made any moves that were deemed brilliant or great , which makes me feel a lot better about my chess when I get one of those . How accurately you played , whether you made any moves that were deemed brilliant or great , which makes me feel a lot better about my chess when I get one of those . And Game Review also offers a virtual coach that gives insights on every move . It'll also show you alternate lines that would have been better for you to help you understand how you can improve your game . So go on chesscom , play a game and try out the Game Review .

Daniel 1:02

Welcome to this week's show . This is part two of the previous episode , number 119 , where Omar Mills interviews me about this podcast in honor of its third anniversary . I split our chat over two episodes because we had a pretty long conversation and I thought it would be kinder to attention spans to make it into two episodes . Now you don't have to have listened to the other one first or at all , but I think it all flows better and ties together better if you listen to part one and then part two , which is this one that you're about to hear , and we definitely cover some interesting topics in this episode , including should chess grow its numbers through faster time controls in an exclusively online setting ? Is chess the same game , whether it's bullet or classical ? Plus , I answer the same rapid fire questions that I ask my guests , which leads us down a discussion of some interesting chess topics that I didn't expect .

Daniel 1:58

Also , I have a bit of news regarding my guest host , omar Mills , who's a fellow adult improver . He just released his first chessable course right after we recorded this episode , which I think is pretty amazing . I love when I hear about an adult improver , an adult club player , getting the opportunity to release a course . I think that's a great direction for our community and I'm super proud of him . Plus , you can have a chance to win the full video course for free . His course is called Chess Destiny Lessons from an Adult Improver and His Coach . There's a link to check out all the details about it in the show notes , but briefly I'll tell you that it's a course that'll help you with a better mindset toward the game and your improvement journey , a plan on how to study and some advice on how to approach learning from your mistakes .

Daniel 2:48

It's aimed at folks rated between 400 and 1100 . To get the details on how to win a free copy of this full video course , just follow me on Twitter . My username is lona underscore chess , and there's a link in the show notes to my Twitter account directly . All right , so let's dive into the second half of my conversation with Omar , where he interviews me about this podcast . The interview picks up where Omar asked me which of my guests I'd love to hang out with . I really love , overall , the second half of our conversation here , because we dive into some deeper topics about the game that I don't think I've really talked much about at all on

Episode 120: Interview with Daniel Lona

Daniel 3:26

this show with anyone . I hope you enjoy it now .

Daniel 3:29

You asked another question , though , too , which is just to hang out with yes yeah , okay , so that that's kind of similar to my and one of the questions that I have , like in my rapid fire questions , right , yeah , that's , that's tough . I feel like I should come up with . I've talked about a lot of the names , the same names , a lot Okay .

Omar 3:49

If you want to put any of those that are , you know , it doesn't mean that you can play them or not play them , but you can interview them and then have dinner with them . You know , like maybe you're talking about know them as human beings you know even more so . So it's a . You could have people you know on both sides of that list . Nothing wrong with that .

Daniel 4:11

Yeah , it's hard to say , it's hard to pick one right , because it's just like everybody I've talked about I would want to hang out with .

Omar 4:16

You want to hang out with ? Yeah .

Daniel 4:17

Yeah , let me name one though . Okay , it overlaps , but I'll go with Robert Hess again . I don't know , sometimes you just feel like you connect and you're like on the same vibe with somebody . I just feel that with him I feel like we're similar personalities or something , or there's enough overlap there that we could really connect and so , yeah , I would just love to talk chess with him all night . That'll be amazing .

Omar 4:38

Let me expand that a bit , man , and ask you this Out of everybody that you've had , a chance to interview so far for your show .

Omar 4:50

If you could pick one person out of that list to become your personal friend , you could talk to them anytime . They're your friend for life , lifelong friend . Who would it be ? And here's the thing I'm'm gonna give you this too . If you want to push on that and say I don't want to answer that because I don't want to leave anybody out , I give you . I give you , I give you space to be able to do that because I get that that .

Chess Celebrities and Personal Connections

Omar 5:16

That is a that's a tough ask because you've interviewed a lot of cool people yeah , see , I try to .

Daniel 5:20

I want to keep it interesting by mentioning someone I haven't mentioned , but I , I feel like this is going to come back .

Omar 5:25

No , you can . You can , absolutely can .

Daniel 5:26

Yeah , okay , so this won't be a fresh name , that I haven't said . But Jennifer speaking to Jennifer , shahadi speaking to that , that connection quality , like we connect really well , at least I think . So that's like I say about a lot of celebrity , or like celebrities .

Omar 5:40

I think we can agree right .

Daniel 5:41

I think we can agree right . Yeah , Like they're my friend , I might not be their friend , but they are my friend . Right . So that's kind of how at least I perceive that we connect well and I think that's what made those episodes really good too . Is that we just I think it's just personality , that's mostly it . I was going to say age , but I think it's really just personality . That is the driver there , because I think we're both inclined to be like positive upbeat you know , want to be excited about stuff .

Daniel 6:07

I just like that's her and that's how I feel , like I want to be with people too . So , yeah , I mean there's a reason . She's like one of my favorites . So I just got to move to Philadelphia . Because she's in Philadelphia , I went to . Philadelphia , I might have a shot .

Omar 6:32

I'm not welcome in Philadelphia . I'm a Dallas Cowboys fan . They will run me out of Philly , in fact , actually not now , they probably be , like come , so we can just beat on you In now .

Omar 6:42

Recently , as we're recording this , there's big money that you know , as , like all the top players are starting to gravitate towards this , and esports is big money . My personal hope is that we start to start to see this expand a little bit and more people will have opportunities to take advantage of some of that opportunities to take advantage of some of that . But , seeing as how it's just getting started and I know that they're trying to make a splash we probably won't see that for a while . I'm just curious to know your thoughts on that . Is it something that you think is good for the game ? Do you think that it's like this isn't chess ? That's not real chess . It's not this . You have some people that will hate on it , other people who will think that it's great . Curious to know where you land on that and , especially given that you have more of a and a lens on players who are not the top players , who may not ever get invited to do something like esports , where do you land on something like that ? What's your , what's your thought ?

Daniel 7:40

yeah , it's tough , I probably . The short answer is I probably have some mixed feelings on it , because generally I'm of the let .

Daniel 7:48

For whatever reason you know , I love over the board I love classical , I love , you know , traditional tournaments and things like that . And yet you know what ? I've come to this place in my own chess journey , where I don't advocate that any person's chess journey be a certain way right , I want them . Want them , you know , like , if they want to go to , if they're an adult like us , only at the club player level , and they want to go for be a title player , they want to become national master , great .

Daniel 8:35

If you want to you know , study hard three , four hours every day for the next 10 years to get that . I am so excited

Esports Chess: Good for the Game?

Daniel 8:43

for it . And also day for the next 10 years to get that , I am so excited for it . And also , if you just want to study 30 minutes a week and play blitz and bullet the rest of the time , awesome , you're , you're one of us . You're , you know , you're a chess person . So I try not to have like a specific definition of what it means to have a chess journey or what you should be .

Daniel 9:01

There is no should to me right on a chess journey you only should is whatever you create for yourself . That's how I see it , like it's a great way to look at it , whatever form you want it to take .

Daniel 9:11

Do that . That's so , as someone who has that mentality but also prefers like this , personally prefers like , yeah , the , the classical style , yeah , the board , and then seeing esport , like like there's a little bit of a conflict , you know , because on the one hand , I want to say like let's grow the game , let's let it be whatever it wants to be to people , but there's another part of me that also like that's just , it's not my vision of chess , that's not how I think of chess , like I'm basically just disagreeing with myself at the end of the day , hard , not to .

Omar 9:43

Given that you want to grow the game , it's . You can't grow the game on your terms not only say grow the game yeah yeah , it's a but . That's not to discredit your terms because they're yours and so they have value . They're a part of the game and that's tough because it's funny .

Omar 10:02

I got into into a discussion about this on X with a guy earlier today where I was talking about some Blitz games I played and he responded and my opinion it's not even this , isn't even real chess , you know . And my response to that was I found it interesting the subjectivity of how one defines real chess and the way I get into that is the butcher . We were talking about this years ago . And Miles says to me 30 minute games are rapid to me and I'm like wait what ? 30 minutes is like a lone wolf , that's like the 30 plus 30 or 30 plus zero or whatever it is . That's a lone wolf game . That's a classical lone wolf game , like that's a classical setting , only chess . What do you mean ? 30 minutes is rapid and he's like well , he's like you don't know this because you've never sat for five hours and play . In fact , to this day , the longest I think I've sat is right around three hours for a game you know , and got a leg cramp , like .

Omar 11:15

That's how uninitiated I am , you know , into that space of super long classical games . But it becomes interesting when you say oh well , based on time control , it speaks to the legitimacy of whether or not it is chess , and that's different for everybody . You know on that . So it's a . It's very , very interesting , you know . But I get where you're coming from because it's got to land with you .

Omar 11:42

And so when you look at esports , you go that doesn't feel like chess to me , but I get it because I want to see the game grow and if this is what all the kids are doing , okay , well then , by all means I'm not going to tell it to get off my lawn but at the same time get off my lawn Right . Right .

Daniel 11:58

Yeah , exactly . So , yeah , I think you know there's two things about that . This is a really fascinating conversation , right Like in terms of like , what do I think of esports ? Because it gets to the heart of like a lot of big questions . One of them is , you know , does time control define the game ? Does it determine what we're talking about ?

Omar 12:17

Or let me ask you this , daniel If it is time , control , and do you have to have tactile pieces in front of you for it to be chess ?

Daniel 12:25

That second one , I think I can fairly easily answer no Like online . Yeah , it's still chess .

Omar 12:32

So interesting right Online is still chess . As long as the time control meets the criteria , you will have other people that will say it's not chess unless I can touch a piece in front of me , across from another human . That to them is real chess . But I interrupt you , I apologize .

Daniel 12:48

That's okay , but it's just interesting .

Omar 12:50

I would have thought you were especially given your study board and how beautiful it is and how I love to come to . Chicago and steal it from you and make it mine . It's like as a guy who loves the tactile feel and has one of the most beautiful chess sets I've ever seen .

Daniel 13:05

It's interesting that you would say no , no , no online is fine .

Daniel 13:08

Well , I definitely prefer over the board , you know , but it's still chess to me , of course , even if it's online . I mean , I'll be honest , most of my studying is online . But as far as the time control thing , that's a really fascinating question because , because you know , we're calling it chess in both instances . But I wonder if chess is sort of unique that way , it really does become a very different game . I mean , think of the contrast of bullet versus a 90 30 classical game . I mean , yes , they're both chess because they operate under the same , then the same rules applies , the same pieces and all that stuff . But it is fascinating how much you change the nature of the game if you go to either extreme of the time control . You know , and I think that goes to the heart of it , it's just like well , it's a different thing . I mean calculation . Calculation is barely even registered if you're doing bullet .

Omar 14:00

There's not enough time , yeah .

Daniel 14:02

Right . So why are you spending all this time studying calculation or trying to improve that skill , when we're just going to play bullet ? Yeah , well , that's my point is like you're at least the studying end of it definitely looks very different if you're just a bullet player versus a classical player , if you just did one or the other . So I do think time control matters a lot and I think that's probably you know a lot of my like , a little bit of unease when it comes to esports , chess being like esport , like that's the direction of growth . It's because it does change the nature of the game .

Omar 14:32

It's , it's , it's your chess , but it's not the same thing . You're not playing the position , you're playing the person right more than you are anything else . Yeah , and I comes into it .

Daniel 14:42

Yeah , yeah right and I feel like , to some degree , this is an objective statement . Like you can , I feel like you can prefer chess as an e-sport and you can prefer bowl , and you still probably have to say , well , yeah , this is different than classical . You know what I mean ? I don't think the fact that it's different is an opinion . You know it is very different .

Omar 14:58

Yeah , the only issue I take with it is the the the planting the flag saying this is real versus this is not real because the reason I say that is not because I disagree with it per se . There's a part of me that's like well , no , this is real chess if you , if you don't have to think , is it chess it ? That's that that kind of goes against some of the origins of the game it's , in my opinion , yeah it's a , yeah , it's a .

Omar 15:24

There's to me there's . What makes people great is the when you the fact that they have time to really sit there . But , by the same token , my feeling is that if it's all about that , then just get rid of the clocks . I think I posted that on x . I'm like let's get rid of the clocks and and then I posted that I ran away because that's such a hot take , head explodes .

Daniel 15:48

Yeah , it's like head explodes .

Omar 15:50

Because when you factor that up to top players , every game is going to be a draw , if time is never a factor . But then it goes back to what we talked about the minute you add in the addition of time and a time control , where do you , subjectively or objectively , draw the line in the sand and say this is where it becomes real chess . Anything shorter than this is not real chess even though the same rules apply to me . It's just very fascinating .

Daniel 16:21

You know when you think about it yeah , and I I don't think I personally would ever frame it as real versus not real , like that's too . That's too harsh to me , that's on the side of people who are enjoying what they're enjoying to say that what you enjoy is not real . Like that's , that's me yeah exactly , exactly that .

Omar 16:35

That , in fact , this was my debate , you know , with my buddy online who was like , and mind you , in his defense he said it's not real chess to me . So he did apply this subjectivity and my response was like it's interesting , the subjectivity of it for these reasons that we're talking about , which is where it becomes fascinating . But I'm not going to take away from him that to him , long , slow positions and positional chess feels like real chess to him , and there's nothing wrong with that chess to him and that , and there's nothing wrong with that at all to me , and there's a part of me that's like inclined to agree . I'm also wondering , if I were better at it , would I be even more inclined ?

Daniel 17:16

I agree . Well , I mean , I'm definitely not going to be a person to say like , let's not grow the game through this , through esports , like that . It's just my own personal enthusiasm for it , you know , is lesser than if you told me like , hey , classical tournaments are blowing up and becoming more popular you know it's even more easy for me to get excited about one versus the other , but you do it if you got invited , what I do you get if you join team liquid .

Omar 17:43

Now you and magnus are teammates right ? Yeah , I'm not daniel lona is liquid , right , would you ?

Daniel 17:51

would you be down ? I'm not , I'm not a purist , I just I just , I have preferences .

Omar 17:57

I'll take anybody's money if they're giving it away . Right , yeah , exactly , exactly .

Daniel 18:00

Exactly , exactly , yeah , yeah , no , I'm , I'm not , I'm not like hardcore on my opinions . Yeah , I just uh , I have my preferences and I guess I would just say , like , maybe I would like to see a world where we try to grow the game at all directions and not just I got you .

Daniel 18:23

Yeah , but I am for finding new ways to do that . You know like we've talked , I think , a couple of times on this show about how much we both like the idea of Pogchamps and we need more things like that . So I mean that's , that's a shorter , you shorter , you know that's . I mean it's a faster time control .

Omar 18:38

I hear what you're saying , though Not at the expense of classical chess . Like . I don't want classical chess to not have a space . I don't want it to be lost in the shuffle of like . Don't grow the game at the expense of what made the game beautiful to begin with . And I hear you 100% on that Right , right , like , let's .

Daniel 18:57

let's still try to grow classical tournaments . You know , and and you know , speak to the . You know the awesomeness of classical chess . It does . I don't , yeah , I don't feel like it has to be one or the other , but I guess that would be . My only concern is if we just try to grow the game only on super fast time controls and only online . Yeah , agreed , yeah , so anyway , yeah , that's . That's my long answer to that question .

Omar 19:19

All

Rapid Fire Questions Begin

Omar 19:20

right , uh , duman , this has been fantastic . Yeah , I hate that you're going to take your show back from me after we're done with this , but I want to throw some some rapid fire questions at you .

Daniel 19:34

The ones I asked my guests .

Omar 19:36

Yeah , exactly yeah , the the now one . Yeah , exactly yeah , Now one that I got here . We literally just talked about , which is , like you've already answered , what your favorite time controller is , so I'm going to take that one out of the mix .

Daniel 19:47

Okay , Are you specific about that one ?

Omar 19:48

though . Oh , please , please , Absolutely so yeah definitely it's classical but 90-30 .

Daniel 19:53

That's like Really Apex chess for me personally .

Omar 20:03

I'll do that . For me is yeah , 90 , 30 is my absolute favorite way to play the game okay , so that's increment 30 not delay , not playing , oh delays . The delay is is blasphemous . What's wrong with ?

Daniel 20:12

delays . Delay just hurts me well , because it makes it the game harder for me .

Omar 20:16

So I like it , it's . It's kind of the same thing you get the , you get the seconds .

Daniel 20:21

No , no , you still get them but I can't , I can't I can't build , so it's just , it's just like clock ticks , but I can't yeah that's hysterical .

Omar 20:32

Yeah , I need to see the 30 on my clock . I need to see it add to my time .

Daniel 20:37

I got you yeah , I can build a bigger thing , a stockpile of time that way , yeah , whereas , like , if I'm five seconds into the delay and I move .

Omar 20:47

I don't get the other 25 . Yeah , you don't get the other 25 .

Daniel 20:49

Yeah .

Omar 20:50

You just move , and then they just , you know their clock starts .

Daniel 20:54

I don't like things that make the game , for me , than it already is , more than fair . More than fair , okay .

Omar 21:02

All right , so let me start throwing some of these at you .

Daniel 21:05

Man , sure Knights or bishops , bishops all the way , really All the way .

Omar 21:11

Okay , why ?

Daniel 21:13

So , yeah , I got a specific reason for that . People like knights because they're tricky , right , I mean , at least at our level . People like them because they can be . Yeah , but it's a double-edged sword . It's harder for me , too , to to like plan with and find its optimal move and see it in one second or things like that . You know . So like it messes with me too as a player , messes with my opponent just as much as it messes with me , whereas bishops I just it's clean , like I know they don't surprise me as much , I know what I'm doing with them and the bishop pair is just lethal .

Omar 21:45

So Very , very true . Yeah , does this extend to are you bishops , even in a closed position ? Oh well if I have a shot to open it

Playing Style and Favorite Openings

Omar 21:56

up .

Daniel 22:01

I'm going it up . I'm gonna try to open it up so your bishops , regardless .

Omar 22:03

Yeah , yeah , okay , I'm gonna try to open that up .

Daniel 22:04

Yeah , okay , no , I like it . I like it . I thought you . I thought you might pivot on that , but you're like no , no , closed or open , I want I want bishops , I respect it I'm gonna have to use that with my guests in the future if they pick bishops , yeah , like knights , terrify me the .

Omar 22:20

To me it depends Just the fact that I even asked you if it's closed . That's how I would answer that . Knights terrify me , but I want them . I will target Bishops . I sacrifice them so much that it's I almost kind of answer my own question . Yeah , I'll sack a bishop for nothing , just to do it , just to open a position up .

Daniel 22:43

But I'm very much that guy I'm very much crazy with mine , but that's a reason to like bishops , right , it's the Greek dist . That's a fair point . Yeah , it could be the Greek dist , yeah , yeah no , oh , you know what You're right .

Omar 22:56

All right , I'm over there with you .

Daniel 22:57

I'm team bishops . You know what ? I Team bishops .

Omar 22:59

yeah , yeah , All right . So what's your favorite opening to play as White Evans Gambit ? I ?

Daniel 23:05

think I knew that . You'll see , I'm a Gambit person .

Omar 23:08

I remember when you started learning that , if I remember correctly , Like that's within the last three years , that's been your opening .

Daniel 23:18

It has , yeah , for years now .

Omar 23:20

Yeah , all right , I think I already know the answer to my next one . What's your favorite opening play as black ? I think I know that .

Daniel 23:26

Yeah . So I'm going to split this into two because I forget which GM it was . I had a GM answer it this way and I was like , oh , that's good , Maybe I should do it . But they said they answered it both as against one D4 and against one .

Omar 23:40

E4 . Yes , yes , yes , okay , okay . So it gives you a shot . Yeah , E4 , d4 . Or let me throw another wrinkle at you if they open with a knight .

Daniel 23:54

Oh well then I'm just mad . That's fair . I know that's like a solid move , but I don't care .

Omar 24:00

Listen , I don't know that there's a better response than the one you gave . It's so noncommittal . I was angry . Yeah Right , I was angry . Now that you've done that , commit to an opening . Don't be afraid , put a pawn in the center . Stop this . Put a pawn in the center , pick your pawn it's . D or C ? We all know that which of those three pawns .

Daniel 24:18

Are you moving ?

Omar 24:19

Come on , let's not beat around the bush More than fair .

Daniel 24:22

Yeah .

Omar 24:23

I don't like teasing you . All right , E4 . One E4 . What are you doing ?

Daniel 24:28

Okay , sicilian Sveshnikov , really , yep , yep , no more French . No , french has been gone fora , while what fresh hell is this , sir ?

Omar 24:42

What is this ? What blasphemy ? Are you saying no , french ?

Daniel 24:46

I still like the French .

Omar 24:49

Mind you .

Daniel 24:49

I get excited when people online say they show some love for it . I'm all there for that . I still like the French . It served me well enough .

Omar 24:58

It served you better than well . It served me well enough . I know firsthand . That's right we played .

Daniel 25:02

Yeah , I know firsthand how well it served you . Yes , yeah , I remember like it was like move nine or something and you said I don't like any of this .

Omar 25:10

Yeah , yeah , I was like I don't appreciate anything that you're doing . Yeah , I don't like this .

Daniel 25:14

Yeah , it's Sveshnikov . Andres told me you know you're going to learn what you need to learn if you play the Sicilian versus the French . He's not wrong yeah .

Omar 25:26

I abandoned it and I came back to the Sicilian , because it forces you to grow in ways that you don't want to .

Daniel 25:35

Yeah , yeah no it's super Okay .

Omar 25:37

So that's for Z4 . What about D4 ? What do you serve ?

Daniel 25:41

up D4 . Took me a long time to find the right thing .

Omar 25:45

You are in good company . Everyone hates to see it . I think I hate that more than I hate the night opening .

Daniel 25:52

Yeah , D4 is just like why ?

Omar 25:55

Why do you hate us ? Why do you hate us both ? Yeah , right , exactly .

Daniel 25:57

Exactly , exactly . Yeah , like I thought , we wanted to play an enjoyable game .

Omar 26:02

Yeah , enjoyable game . And then you're playing this and you play D4 . That's just . Come on , we're club players . I'm not a positional . Come on , I can't be a positional player as a club player . Yeah .

Daniel 26:14

So the Albin ?

Omar 26:14

counter gambit .

Daniel 26:15

So yeah , so D4 , d5 , they play C4 , which is like the Queen's Gambit opening typically , and then they play E5 , sacking the pawn , if they want to .

Omar 26:27

Nice , nice . So you're like all right , I see what you're doing and I'm going to open it up anyway .

Daniel 26:31

Yep , you open it up . Yeah , see , it goes back to that Bishop thing . There's a consistency in my answer here .

Omar 26:40

Yeah , answer , yeah , I like that .

Daniel 26:41

I like that because you're gonna like they still want to play positionally , but you're like too bad . Yeah , no , we're not doing any of that . Yeah , you should have played e4 , right ? Yeah , it would have been a lot easier for you , it'd be a lot easier for both of us .

Omar 26:49

But no , you did that , and so now , now it's just chess , right ? Yeah , exactly , yeah , love it .

Daniel 26:54

So albin against uh , albin counter against Alvin , countercambit against D4 , and then Sicilian against N4 .

Omar 27:02

Now , are you just , if you get somebody who is just I'm going to Fianchetto everything , I'm going to Hypermodern , I'm going to do that Do you just pause in the center , or you do ?

Daniel 27:14

you have anything Okay ?

Omar 27:15

And then you kind of just work it from there .

Daniel 27:17

Yeah , basically , yeah , I don't have a lot of prep against the Finke kind of openings .

Omar 27:22

I don't know that you need it . I think it's just more annoying to me than anything else because I don't know what they're going to do . You know , and I play a ton of Blitz so I see quite a bit of hyper-modern openings , you know . So you know , it's just that's why I'm just irritated by it . But it's effective , I'll give them that .

Daniel 27:38

It is . I know I console myself when they do that . I'm like oh , come on , we're club players and you're going to act like you understand hyper-modern opening theory and then , they proceed to beat me .

Omar 27:51

I love when I can punish it , though I do . I do . It's just you have to . I find that you have to . You can get out of the opening but you have to .

Omar 28:05

You can get out of the opening , but you have to be able to think during the middle game and that what they're doing is they're playing things to get you to blunder . But if you don't , then they typically run out of gas and then it's a matter of if we get to an end game , then it's . I find that most of those players who do that have not prepped for end game training and it's a like it's . I will say , say this it's either , or with me , I prep for it , but I mess them up a lot , you know . So it's a , but it's very satisfying when you get them all right . So , in one word , man , how would you describe your playing style ?

Daniel 28:33

you know it's funny , I I started to ask this is a newer question that I started asking my guests and I don't like it . But then it's also like when I have to answer it myself can you answer it ?

Omar 28:43

Can you do ? Can you come down to one word ? Yeah , right , and I actually want to hear this . I'm curious to know where you're , where you're going to land on this .

Daniel 28:51

Okay , so this maybe isn't a typical word to describe someone's style , but I'm going with thorough , thorough , now especially when we're talking in a classical game .

Daniel 29:01

Yeah , I mean it is both my strength and my weakness , because it gets me into time trouble . I'm a little too thorough , more than I need to be . But it's also a strength because it's where I can . If I can get an advantage by the middle game , I often win the game . If I have to go into an end game , I'm usually in time trouble and the person beats me because I'm blundering , Not true . But my thoroughness , like , yeah , I consider more candidate moves , I think , than average at my level . I calculate deeper into lines than is common at my level and that's what I love about chess . I love being able to explore all of that and that , I believe , gives me an edge over my opponents , provided I can get that edge by the middle .

Omar 29:41

Yeah , provided you have . You have the time that I'm time trouble .

Daniel 29:45

Yeah , I have time trouble issues , so that's a strength and a weakness , but I think it accurately described . I'm very thorough , like I want to be . I check all my , all my bases , especially after we're out of books . Um , yeah , very thorough in how I put it .

Omar 29:56

Yeah not sure who's your favorite chess streamer or YouTuber ?

Daniel 30:01

I'm probably not going to go with one of the big celebrity names that we all think of . I'm going to go with Andres Toth , and I'll tell you why .

Omar 30:09

Solid . Yeah , yeah , yeah , I should be he should be on the level

Chess Content Creators and Legends

Omar 30:14

of everybody that you're talking about .

Daniel 30:15

Yeah , he absolutely deserves to be . Absolutely deserves to be . He deserves to be a hundred times bigger in terms of like , following numbers . Yeah , because I think she has my favorite balance between the quality improvement advice while also being interesting and entertaining and funny . Yeah , because it's usually more just . I think a lot of people lean towards one more than the other , like it's either like , very just , educational , it's very helpful , but it's not .

Omar 30:43

You know , it's not gonna be loud , yeah , yeah , or it's just like really funny and entertaining , but it's .

Daniel 30:48

You're not gonna get any better at chess and I just think that he's just strikes such a good , perfect balance between the two , so that makes him my favorite and just a good dude on top of that very accessible . It's just just a he's .

Omar 30:59

He's the one person . Coach toth is the one person I I can think of that absolutely obliterated me . When I talk with him in terms of like going over my games and the whole time I'm just laughing . You know , he's like , this is why you're terrible , you know , and I'm like thank you , you know , thank you , coach , he's , yeah , he's awesome .

Daniel 31:19

I remember one of those and he had one of the funniest analogies ever , and this is not this isn't I make many worse mistakes , but the way he described one of the things , one of your moves that he didn't like , it was just the way he described it was hilarious . He said that you were bringing a frying pan to a nuclear war as your weapon . The frying pan is your weapon in a nuclear war . And I I was just , I could not stop . I don't think I learned . I listened , I heard anything you said after that for like the next minute I was just laughing so much .

Omar 31:46

Exactly , exactly . That's what I'm talking about .

Daniel 31:49

Yes , he will make his point in the most hilarious way . You can't even be mad , You're just like you're right to critique you to hear what amazing analogy he's going to come up with .

Omar 32:02

And what I think is like that's off the hip .

Daniel 32:04

That's just him off the cuff , he's not planning that , that's just something that stuff just comes to him . That was just natural , that's just how he felt about Moose .

Omar 32:15

Listen , man , it might be an iron skillet , it may not be , terrible right , I might have that , you don't know .

Daniel 32:22

Right , exactly , it's a stronger pan than you think . It's a stronger pan than you think you don't know . My life , right , right , yeah . And you burst out laughing too . You can't be mad at the critique when it's that funny . No , you can't be mad , you just have to take the L , and it's that funny .

Omar 32:39

No , you can't be mad , you just have to take the L . You just have to take it and just say you know what ? That's well played , sir .

Daniel 32:43

Right . And then , when it comes from an IM , how can you disagree ?

Omar 32:45

anyway , you can't , you just take it and you just laugh and you keep it moving .

Daniel 32:49

That's really all you can do , but it speaks to how good he is Absolutely . Yeah , he's one of the funniest out there .

Omar 32:59

No , without question , without doubt , yeah .

Daniel 33:01

Who's your favorite player of all time ? This is easy for me . It's always interesting to me how , like I would say , at least half of my guests struggle to answer this question , but not for me . For me this is pretty easy . So it's Bobby Fischer , and I know there's , like always , the asterisk attached to him because you know the personal qualities and all that right right . But as a player and I think I think you might relate to this , omar , because when it's your first , your first favorite , it's hard for someone to stop being your ever .

Daniel 33:28

stop being your first favorite yeah you know , back in the 90s watching the movie searching for bobby fisher , that movie created such an awesome mystique to him and , like he was the first world champion that I was aware of , just like how you said , magnus yeah , like the first that you get to know .

Omar 33:43

You can't undo that you can't undo that right , it's just hard , like I know .

Daniel 33:47

I know there's issues later that I learned about , but but as a player , just purely as a chess player phenomenal . And back to this underdog thing this I'm gonna tie this in . I love when I get a chance to tie something in . Yeah , I love underdogs . And he was like the ultimate underdog Poor kid from Brooklyn takes on and defeats the entire Soviet chess empire . I mean , it's David and Goliath , yeah , and I'm a sucker for that kind of story .

Omar 34:13

You can't be mad at it , yeah .

Daniel 34:15

You know , you could argue who's a better player and all that kind of thing , and that'll be debated for all time . I just don't think there's a better story than no david and goliath . You know , it's just . It's incredible and that's why I also put him as my favorite . It's just . I don't know if anyone had odds stacked higher against them to claim the crown than he did . I mean , he had no resources compared to all this . You know , all the great chess , the great Russian chess players , and to just do that some coming from almost nothing , is one of the most inspiring stories . So he'll always be my favorite for that reason .

Omar 34:48

Love it , Absolutely love it , All right . So he may be the answer to this one . If you could play , all right , I'm going to throw . You know , living or not , you know all time if you could play any of the top players in the world at any time in the timeline , who would it be ?

Daniel 35:05

Oh , that yeah , I mean , if we go anybody , it's going to be the same answer .

Omar 35:09

It's going to be Fisher .

Daniel 35:10

Yeah , but if we went living , yeah , if we went living . Yeah , if we went living , I might go with Hikaru .

Daniel 35:18

Really I think I'll go with Hikaru . Hikaru , like we're talking about firsts again . I think Hikaru was the first for me , like in the modern era , the more recently , like in the past , I guess five years like the first great player of the modern era that I really got to know . There's like almost no one easier to watch than him . Like he's always out there playing , always streaming . I think he was the first person where I saw the genius in action .

Daniel 35:42

You know , of course everyone's seen like these videos of him where he calculates , puts 80 arrows on the board , and there was just that mystique to him of just like , oh my god , like how does this guy do this ? How does he do this ? You know , it's just I had never seen someone for whom chess was easier than for karu , and I just love that when , when someone's like this game is easy to me , like obviously we do these next 12 moves , I can't help but admire the hell out of that you know , so yeah , so that's Hikaru because that's like my first sort of modern era yeah , understood all right now .

Omar 36:14

Would this be the same answer for this , like if you could hang out with any of the any chess celebrity for an evening ?

Daniel 36:19

we may have touched on that , but I'm curious to know , like if you got a different answer for who that might be yeah , I mean , I think I answered jennifer , but let me , since we're asking the question again , let me , let me give another answer .

Daniel 36:30

Kisparov , really , yeah , okay because I think when I think of like hanging out for an evening , I think of just someone with an interesting personality on top of what they've done in chess , yeah , and I mean I just feel like I listen to him talk forever . He is just one of those people that's so engaging .

Omar 36:47

Godfather man . Yeah , that's , yeah , that's who he is .

Daniel 36:51

Right , I mean , he's such a dynamic personality , yeah , and of course , now you're hanging out with a living legend on top of it yeah , so you put the two together . I'm gonna go with kasparov . Love it yeah yeah .

Omar 37:04

I'm curious to know if he said to you well , you know you're hanging out with kasparov , and he says , daniel , what's your , what's your chess vice ? What would you tell him ,

Chess Study Methods and Ultimate Wish

Omar 37:16

and would your answer be the same if you were talking to somebody else ?

Daniel 37:19

yeah , it'd probably be the same , I don't be , the same . I can't lie to the legend . I don't want that on my conscience .

Omar 37:26

I can't mar the experience with that .

Daniel 37:27

I had a great time except I lied to him once , so my answer to that question , though , would probably be too much opening setting .

Omar 37:39

But it's weird . Yeah , it's weird because I defend openings why is that bad ?

Daniel 37:43

that's a good question and that's debatable . Whether it's bad because it doesn't help you improve after a certain point , right , like to some degree it does , but then like , if you keep doing it like you get diminishing returns is the idea , but that's an interesting point though , because maybe , just maybe , we should just be doing what we want to do in chess .

Daniel 37:59

There's that point too , but I think if you want to label it a vice , it's probably that . I mean , if you wanted to name something that I do , it's probably that , because I definitely do it more than people advocate . But I also kind of don't care because I like it . There it is . That's my answer . Yeah , if someone said Dan , you're spending too much time on openings , I would say yep , I know , but I like it .

Omar 38:22

You know it's funny . I have a similar vice . It's not openings , but it's buying courses on openings .

Daniel 38:30

Ooh , that's similar , that is yeah that is .

Omar 38:34

You know , that is my vice . Like cause , I'm always looking for the silver bullet . Well , if I learn this , then I'll know this , and then I'll be able to win all the games , and then nobody will play any of the lines from the course that I just started studying . If you could just upload it to your brain , you'd be yeah , exactly . It works better for white , because you can kind of dictate a little bit . You know , I've had the most success with that , with the Bishops opening .

Omar 39:00

You know , but I've had the most success with that , with the other bishops opening in terms of studying that and getting some of the main lines down . It really helped me . I didn't realize how wrong I was playing it for so long and then all of a sudden I'm like I got this course , Maybe I should look at it . And then you start playing what's in there , you go oh , I'm winning now . Imagine that it kind of helps to study the thing you paid for you know on that so , but don't ask me how many courses I have , because I have all of them well , you forgot .

Daniel 39:29

You forgot to mention the most , the strongest , most indefensible argument you have for getting them .

Omar 39:33

I did that way , you have it that way , yeah , that way , I have it , that way you have absolutely yeah , yeah . That is what can anyone say to that I have run that into the ground so much that people think that I came up with it . I'm like no , no , no , no . That is that was gifted to me by Daniel Lona Stops people in their tracks .

Daniel 39:51

right yeah , they're like man .

Omar 39:52

Cause , here's the thing , Cause they're like that's wow , that is true , I wouldn't have it , it's true , yeah , now you do have it if you need it .

Daniel 39:58

So yeah , all right .

Omar 40:00

So I think I know the answer to this one . I'm going to ask you anyway , like what is your favorite way to study or work on your chess ? I think I know this , though , but I'm curious to see if it's what I'm thinking it is .

Daniel 40:12

Okay , there's two parts to this .

Omar 40:14

Okay .

Daniel 40:14

First part studying an annotated game book . Going through an annotated game okay and then second doing it over the board with my , my nice wooden chess set okay , I had the second part . That that was yeah when you put those two things together . That's my favorite way . It's like it's just so relaxing to me . Yeah , chess isn't often relaxing no , no , it is not no , it's many great things , but it's not relaxing , it's not , yeah , yeah but when you yeah , like you just get like a nice beverage to go with it , it's peaceful .

Daniel 40:46

Maybe mid-evening take out the set , yeah , you know , go through a game and just just watch somebody else's genius and try to understand it . Honestly , it's like peak chess for me , peak chess experience all right .

Omar 40:58

So I'm gonna ask you one more , and you already know where it's coming you know , and I'm terrible . I'm kind of nervous about this because I know what I said when you asked this to me and I feel like I might pay for what I said to you on this . If a chess genie existed and could grant you any one chess wish , what would you wish for ?

Daniel 41:23

Being on the receiving end of that for the first time . Yeah , the hardest part of that is , I think , picking , just picking one . And now I understand why Julia Rios , when she was on the show , said wait , don't I get three , cause it's . It is very hard to narrow it down to one . But I'm not going to go with an improvement answer . Those are great , but I'm not going to go with improvement . I'm going to go with something bigger than that for the game . How about growing the game ? It's basically going to be that . So I would love for chess . My wish is for chess to become as popular and mainstream throughout the world as , say , any of the biggest sports . I would just love it to just have that level of participation , fame , respect , excitement .

Daniel 42:11

It feels a little strange to say like everybody plays chess , like I feel like not everybody likes the same thing , but I just want it to be huge , as huge as any other sport out there , because it deserves to be , as huge as any other sport out there . Because it deserves to be , because we love this game . Obviously you , me and everyone listening feels it's worthy to be on that same level and we're just trying to get it there . So I would love if we could just , you know , fast forward time , boom , we're there . Chess is huge to the off-world . I would agree with you . That's my wish .

Omar 42:40

That's a good wish , that's an excellent wish .

Daniel 42:44

A small part is . I mean , this show is trying to play a small part in that we're trying to grow the game through the show . We all have our different ways of doing that , whether it's like teaching a family member or whatever the case may be . The show is an effort to get us there . Tiny effort in that big picture , but yeah .

Omar 43:04

No , that's a wonderful thing . What's funny , man ? You made me think of this . The appeal for chess for me when I was first getting started four years ago was that it felt like it was one of the few things left , that from a sports perspective . That , mind you , this is all pre scandals and cheating and all those things , but if you take that out .

Omar 43:27

Of it and you say let's just say everybody's being above board . It's one of the few things left that there's you can demonstrate . It's . It's skill-based . You , you're either better than your opponent , or they're better than you , or you're equal . And there are no other parameters , there are no other factors . It's you study , they study , let's see who knows what , either through memory or through tactics or through oh , I didn't see that . And the thing I love most about it is even after you , you know , have battled over the board , the person that becomes your that is , your opponent becomes your friend . You only don't root for them during , whatever the time control is for that match . You're rooting for them before and you're definitely rooting for them after , just not during . And that's the beauty of it , man , your opponents become your friends . Jiu-jitsu is very similar . You're a martial artist , so you know exactly what .

Omar 44:27

I'm talking about Like the people you compete against become your friends and you want the best for them , except versus you . And even if they do well against you . You're like wow , you were really good today on this .

Daniel 44:40

Yeah .

Omar 44:43

It's amazing . To that end , I would love to see the game grow as you described , become the most popular game , but I would love to see an addition to that man , if anybody who had interest had the opportunity to become a professional player .

Omar 44:57

And that to me was sort of the appeal . I'm like , wow , if I just get good enough , I can actually challenge and play the top players in the world . It's just a matter of me . I can do that sitting right in my house and improve , and if I'm good enough I'll get those opportunities .

Daniel 45:14

There are very few things like I can't go into the NFL ?

The Universality of Chess

Daniel 45:21

I'll never be good enough . You got to be born right to be able to do this With chess .

Omar 45:24

You just have to study . Now , there's some natural ability that you have to have , but if you train it , you can become good enough at chess at really any point , and that , to me , is one of the most beautiful parts of the game is that it truly is accessible to everybody , if we act right .

Daniel 45:44

Yeah , yeah , I totally agree .

Omar 45:45

If you act , if you're just a kind person , the game's accessible and it's beautiful and it teaches you so much about life , which is why I don't understand why there's so much gatekeeping around . It kind of blows my mind , yeah , but I would love to see your wish come true .

Daniel 46:01

I really would , and I hope it does yeah , you brought up a lot of great points . On mine , we probably must have a whole episode , just on that one topic , right , yeah but one of the things that I do love about it that you hit on is any two people can step up to the board and play each other , and it's not wrong , it's not weird , right . Like you don't want like a-year-old prime specimen dude boxing a little kid , right ?

Daniel 46:26

Like we can't share boxing that way or something like that . Or you know , there's like other sports where it's just like the disparity is too much .

Daniel 46:33

This isn't right you know Right right , but with chess it's never wrong for any two people to step up to the board and play each other , and I think that's what gives it one of its great features . It's so accessible to everybody . Everybody comes here . It doesn't matter age , gender , race , background , anything it's all irrelevant . We can all come together and play this board and play chess together . It's just such a beautiful thing .

Omar 46:56

It brings people together in ways that a lot of other things cannot it's one of the few things left , man , that it has the unique distinction of being ice cream and pizza . Like we don't argue about the greatness of chess , we argued the semantics of chess . What time control is best ?

Daniel 47:14

What's your favorite opening ?

Omar 47:15

What's this ? It's those things .

Omar 47:17

And again , if women were treated better then it would be perfect , but again , but we're working on that and we're going to continue to work on that . I mean , we're going to continue to be intentional . We got guys like you who are amazing , who are , who are focused on that . But , that withstanding , it's one of the few things we have left that unites everyone in the world . I've met so many cool people because of chess all over the world and I wouldn't you know again , I wouldn't trade it for anything and I I to like to your point , man , I wish that everybody could see that . I wish everybody could experience that . It's a gift and it it teaches you , not just about the game , but chess . Chess will teach . That's why it's , compared to everything , it teaches you life lessons , right they're , they're just they're in there .

Omar 48:05

And , and you know , I just uh , I hope that we can . You know , we can grow the game . I really do .

Daniel 48:12

Yeah .

Omar 48:13

Yeah .

Daniel 48:14

Yeah , absolutely . Well , I mean , I think , I think you are Omar , like I think what you do .

Omar 48:20

I mean , I think you are Omar . I'm trying , man , I think you do , you do .

Daniel 48:22

I mean we all do it in different ways . I mean you bring that welcoming spirit , you bring the passion , you connect with people , you're accessible , you talk to everybody who wants to talk to you about chess and , yeah , we all play our roles , so I think we will . I mean , the game is growing . That's the good news .

Omar 48:39

The game is growing .

Daniel 48:40

We just wanted to grow even more , that's all . Yeah , we want to grow even more , you know .

Omar 48:44

I'm right there with you . Well , dude , look , as much as I want to hang on to this , I feel like .

Omar 48:49

I have to give you back . I have to return it . That which belonged to you was always yours . Your show is amazing , man . Just I want to tell you thank you for the opportunity to get to do this for you . The just even being able to be a part of this has been one of the great joys of you know my chess journey , uh , and your show has definitely been a favorite of mine and it's it's helped me , like I said just to . It's just so inspiring , it's so unique , and what you've created , man , is a beautiful , beautiful thing . And especially now , to hear even more about what some of your motivations were and what you were intentional about , that was so interesting . What I love about it is you were intentional but you weren't on everybody's face about it , you just kind of did it , you didn't ask for credit .

Omar 49:38

You just say , hey , I'm going to do this and I'm not going to sound it from the rooftops , I'm just going to let you see it to a point where it's like it's there and it's like it just felt normal , like I never thought oh , he's got another female guest on this week . It was , oh , my God , he's talking to Jen Shahadi . I can't wait to hear that the fact that you're doing it and you're normalizing it is the best way to make the game accessible to more and more women . Is that ?

Omar 50:07

this is how it should be . It's not . Oh , we're doing this just because we have to . We're doing this because it's the right thing to do and we're not going to make it weird . We're going to make it you know , we should have been doing this and I love that man , I love it , and that's the way it's supposed to be and you're you're the pioneer in in that regard . So just kudos to you , you know , and just thank you . Thank you for doing what you do .

Daniel 50:34

Yeah , absolutely . Thank you , Omar . I appreciate the kind words .

Omar 50:37

Yeah , absolutely .

Daniel 50:38

Yeah , it was well . Let me tell you it was an honor to have you host this episode .

Omar 50:41

Thank you , man .

Daniel 50:42

And take the interviewing , the oh yeah , just the host seat and interviewer seat for this episode . And yeah , I just thought I thought it would be fun to celebrate the third anniversary of the show Crazy man . Three years , Three years . It's beautiful . So , yeah , very proud of that , very excited about that , and yeah , just , I'm going into the fourth year with an attitude that the best is yet to come .

Omar 51:05

It is , it absolutely is , man . Like I said , I can't wait to see what you're going to do just in this video space . I'm remembering when we talked about this and it was like man you should stream . You should do this , you should do that , and you were like it's coming , you know , we'll get there , we'll do it yeah . And so I'm excited that it's here . Man , I'm excited that it's here .

Daniel 51:25

Yeah .

Omar 51:26

Yeah .

Daniel 51:27

Thank you , thank you , yeah , lots of

Closing Thoughts and Gratitude

Daniel 51:29

good stuff .

Omar 51:34

And yeah , thanks for being part of that debut too .

Daniel 51:37

I gotta say that I feel a little sheepish because I'm like hey , I've launched a YouTube channel . Who's the first guest ? Me ? No man , you know , say what you , just me .

Omar 51:49

I'm coming up in here to do it yeah , I'll say it for you .

Daniel 51:53

This just worked out that way in terms of timing .

Omar 51:54

But there you go no , man , but it's the right way to do it , because if you're launching like it , what better way to introduce ? The show to a new audience than to say hey , this is what you know , this is what we do , we did , here's what we're doing .

Daniel 52:13

And that's a beautiful thing , right , that's a good point .

Omar 52:14

Yeah To to the people who will be new to it Hit like and subscribe and notification bell and all things you're supposed to do on YouTube right , exactly , exactly Awesome .

Daniel 52:25

Thanks for doing this . Thank you , man .

Omar 52:27

Thank you , my pleasure , man .

Daniel 52:32

Thanks for listening . This has been a production of my Business , adult Chess Academy , and that has a website with the same name . If you want to look for it , you can also find me being way too active on Twitter by searching my username , lona underscore chess See you next week .