Where I Left Off

The Ex-Vows with Author Jessica Joyce

• Kristen Bahls • Season 2 • Episode 29

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 USA Today best-selling author Jessica Joyce joins me to talk about her latest release, The Ex-Vows, a contemporary romance. We cover the book, her publishing journey, writing process, and much more!

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Kristen Bahls:

Welcome back. I'm kristen Balls and you're listening to where I left off, a bookish podcast, and today I'm joined by the usa today best-selling author of you with a view, a risk worth taking, and her latest contemporary romance novel, the E, jessica Joyce. Hi, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, thank you for having me. So the first and most important question that I always ask anyone that is on is what are you currently reading?

Jessica Joyce:

Oh my gosh, I'm reading so much.

Jessica Joyce:

I um, and the vast majority of them are 2025 books. So keep that in mind, I need to like write a list of books that I've read in the past that are coming out now or just came out this year, cause I'm like I'm on a totally different, I'm like on a totally different timeline. I'm like sitting in 2025, 2026. I have a highlights tab on my Instagram profile where I talk about books that I'm recommending. This one just came out, august 6th, and it's called the Great Dating Fake Off. I didn't just read it. I read it ages and ages ago because Libby Hart, who wrote the book she is one of my critique partners but it did just come out. It's amazing. It's fake dating with a twist, because the female main character and the male main character are fake dating other people and they like, yeah, so it's like it's, it's fake dating with a twist. It's so brilliant. So you get like sort of that like forbidden love element too, because it's like they obviously can't show interest in each other because they're fake dating these other people.

Kristen Bahls:

Oh, wow.

Jessica Joyce:

And it's set at a wedding, like during the wedding week of friends, and it's amazing, it's so funny. I think Livvy Hart is like one of the true sort of rom-com writers she writes with like really impeccable comedic timing, so I adore that book. And then I also didn't just read this one, but no One Does it Like you by Katie Shepard, which is her latest that just came out I want to say, last week. It's Second Chance. If you read her previous book, Sweeten the Deal, Sweeten the Deal, You'll find characters in this book that were in that book. They're connected standalones. I'll say so, anyway, love that book. I love Katie Shepard's writing Sunshine and Spice by Aurora Pellet I think that's how you say her last name. I've actually like she's a friend of mine and I've never heard her last name spoken out loud, so I should get on top of that. But her debut just came out. It is again Fake Dating, which I love and let's see.

Jessica Joyce:

And then some 2025 books that I've read recently. First Time, Caller by BK Morrison oh I love that, yeah, which is amazing. Insp Holler by BK Morrison oh I love that, yeah, which is amazing. Inspired by Sleepless in Seattle, I read Tara DeWitt's 2025 release, Left of Forever, which is again sort of like a connected standalone to Savor it, and it's second chance. It's amazing. She does like she's just brilliant. I recently listened to Between Friends and Lovers on Audible, which was amazing. I have Regina Black's 2025 release on my Kindle. I just started it. It's called August Lane and it is about it's again a a second chance. I love second chance, so I'm like I will eat them up every time and it is about a country singer who goes back to um connect with his like old high school love who helped him write like his sort of like one smash hit and he is a country singer.

Jessica Joyce:

So, yeah, I don't know. I've been reading like a ton and they're all over the place that that sounds like a ton. Yeah, but they're, they're all amazing. I feel like I'm I'm constantly like the embarrassment of riches so a second chance.

Kristen Bahls:

Your favorite trope or fake dating.

Jessica Joyce:

I think Second Chance is probably like one of the top ones for me. I do love fake dating, of course, but I think Second Chance and like Enemies slash Rivals to Lovers are sort of my like, really really favorite ones to read.

Kristen Bahls:

Because they might have. Friends to Lovers and Enemies to Lovers are top. And then Force. Proximity and Fake Dating are right underneath and then forced proximity and fake dating are right underneath.

Jessica Joyce:

I know, yeah, those are so good too. It's hard to pick, those are so good.

Kristen Bahls:

It is, it is really hard to pick. Oh my gosh, wow, you are reading like a lot, a lot. I know, yeah, I got a lot on my plate. How do you keep up with everything?

Jessica Joyce:

You? No, not very well, I mean.

Jessica Joyce:

I um, obviously you know, when you're a published author like you, have opportunities to blurb books and I feel like I'm always sort of like being like, yes, send me this book, oh, yeah, I'm going to read this, and you know. And then, like I always miss the deadline to blurb and I'm like sending in my blurb, you know, two weeks late or whatever, so, and I'm also a pretty slow reader and so it just takes. Yeah, it takes a lot of time to actually, you know, get it done, but I have been reading or listening to a lot of audio books lately and that's helped me, like sort of like, not for the 2025 releases, but for like 2024 books, books that have just been released that I've had on my list. That, like that, helps me sort of get through them.

Kristen Bahls:

What speed do you listen to your audiobooks on?

Jessica Joyce:

I'm so I'm kind of new to audiobooks and so and actually I like posted this on threads last, like a month ago or something someone was like someone got mad at me for being like oh, like, I like it's amazing to me that people can listen on like two, you know 2.0 and plus you know an over speed. But I am like really impressed by people who can listen that fast. I am at currently 1.4. That's pretty good and that's about all I can handle, but I really would like to get up to like 1.8 maybe, but I'm, I don't know, I'm okay.

Kristen Bahls:

I'm okay with 1.4 for now for me it kind of depends on the narrator. Sometimes I can listen at like 1.75 or you know two but, you just lose some inflection there. So you know, and if they're a fast talker, then you don't, you can't process it. So yeah, yeah, I switch, I switch.

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, it's hard, it's like you know, my brain at some point my brain just doesn't operate that quickly and it's like wait a second, hold on. I missed like that entire paragraph. I don't even know where we're at right now.

Kristen Bahls:

So or you like, stop what you're doing and just kind of stand there and listen, because you just can't, totally. So we got a little teeny tiny preview at the end of the X-Files of your next book, the Soulmate Charade. What can you tell us about that?

Jessica Joyce:

Well, I can tell you that the snippet that's in that book is not correct anymore. It's out of date. So, um, I'm, you know I'm rewriting it, because I got I probably got like 40,000 words in um to my draft and I was like, oh wow, this is all wrong, so, which is like always such a fun realization, and so so, yeah, so I'm, I'm kind of redoing it and and I also sort of learned about myself that, like, when I share too much, then my brain is like, oh no, I don't want to do it that way anymore, and so it's so hard because obviously I want to share everything. Like I am, I'm such an oversharer, like I will tell everybody anything that's happening in my brain at any given moment. But I have learned that, like I, I can't give too much away when I'm still, you know, in the process of writing a thing, and so I can't say much about it because I feel like I'm still sort of in the discovery process.

Jessica Joyce:

I will say that I did post in like one of my carousel posts on Instagram, I did post like a little portion of the playlist that I put together for it and like a little snippet of the Pinterest board, because those things for me like always sort of come first, like I'm always playing around with you know, sort of the the media part of of drafting a book before I actually dive in. So it might give you like a little hint of what you know the vibes are. But I don't even like I don't think I even really have the tropes nailed down yet. So I can't be like I don't think I even really have the tropes nailed down yet. So I can't be like it's this and this and this.

Jessica Joyce:

It was originally supposed to be fake dating and now I'm like I don't know, I don't know if it's going to be that or not, so I don't know. It's very interesting to write on contract and to write books that, like you know, are going to be perceived by people and that, like, people are actively waiting for. Because, like I, you know, prior to this, even when I wrote the Ex-Fouse it was before it was before you With a View came out, you know, and so I was sort of writing those those books a little bit in a silo because nobody was really like knocking on my door for little bit in a silo because nobody was really like knocking on my door for the ex-house, because which is a kind of fun place to be to not have to have the pressure.

Jessica Joyce:

yeah, yeah, right, like there are just less expectations and, in fact, like the only expectations are my own, right, like what, what do I want this book to be? And so I think that was an interesting sort of discovery with this third book, because, you know, it was sort of like and now people were like, oh, shoot, like I really want this book and I'm like, okay, but I don't know, you know, I don't even know what it's about. So, yeah, it does. It's like the expectations definitely add a different kind of pressure, like I think there's always an inherent pressure to writing a book, right, because it's like such a huge undertaking. But the awareness, the external awareness, I'll say, is like an added like, an added thing to think about.

Jessica Joyce:

So that has been interesting to try and balance that with like writing a book that I want to write and writing a book that I know people been interesting to try and and balance that with like writing a book that I want to write and writing a book that I know people will want to read, and you know, all of that it's, it can be, it can be a really complex like mental game, honestly, that's weird, and if something changes, like the tropes, and you decide to go a different direction, can you just like tell your editor and repitch it, and then they give you carte blanche to kind of go your own way again yeah, I mean my, my agent definitely does.

Jessica Joyce:

And you know I I did go to her and I was like, hey, knock, knock, um, this is wrong. And she was like, okay, and you know, we, we did a lot of brainstorming and and ultimately I was just like, you know, I'm just gonna see where it goes. And she's very much she is, she's so cool with that. And you know like, uh, even with the X-Files, I had submitted a synopsis, like a 10-page synopsis or something, of the book before I started drafting it. Like that's one of sort of the milestones of of a book contract is that you turn in a synopsis and then that gets approved. And it's like a check mark on the um, the deliverables and the synopsis that I provided with her and the book that I ultimately ended up turning in Essence was there.

Jessica Joyce:

But like, so many of the details just changed in drafting, and that is just my process. Like I am a very chaotic drafter. I discover so much in the drafting and so I can tell you that the book is gonna be one thing at the beginning, but then by the time I'm done, I'm like, oh, actually, like it went totally in this other direction direction and it just kind of like is what it is. It's very weird, like it's. It's weird to like talk about my, my brain and creative process as its own, like separate being from me or like having its own free will, but it kind of does, like it just the characters just take you and they go where they want to go.

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, they do, they really do it's. It's pretty wild actually to like be in that experience and obviously you know, you know as a writer, like it just yeah, like they just are like nope, we're gonna go do this actually, and you're like, yeah, okay, that actually does make a lot of sense for you and your art.

Kristen Bahls:

So thank you, and after reading that little snippet, um, I kind of got a possible like magical realism vibe. Is that something that's in there or is it more just kind of like the energy of the place? And of course you know it could change yeah, you're not, it's, it's.

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, there's.

Jessica Joyce:

No, there's no magical realism.

Jessica Joyce:

I mean, there is still a psychic element to it, like there is this psychic, an actual psychic, a person, but the the story itself, I think is really rooted in to. To be honest with you, I'm a very woo-woo person. Like I have tarot, like I'm sitting here with tarot decks on my on my desk. So I believe in you know, like I believe in signs, the universe doing its thing, like obviously we all have free will, but like paths are carved out for us if we want to take them, that kind of thing, and so so I think I kind of always well, I played around with it a little bit in you with the view, because there was a chapter with um or a scene with a tarot reader and you know I talked a lot about, like you know, her grandma giving her signs from, yeah, yeah and stuff like that, and so I think this sort of plays around with that too, of like the universe sort of doing its thing, but ultimately like we do have free will over our lives and we are capable of making choices, basically.

Kristen Bahls:

Yeah, yeah, makes sense. Yeah, I couldn't tell you know, it's one of those things where you read a chapter, I'm like Hmm, I don't know, it could go either way. Yeah, it could go either way. It could go either way, but it sounded really good, so whatever you let it on it'll, it'll be good. I appreciate that. So, talking a little bit about um you with the view for a second, so there was bo's pov chapter um that you let out for newsletter subscribers yeah when I got it on the pre-order um incentive, I mistakenly finished it like right before I was going somewhere, and I don't know why.

Kristen Bahls:

I thought I wasn't gonna cry. I've cried every book, but I was like oh, it's fine I'll just finish it up like I only have 10 pages left. I think yes, I only have like two pages left, and so I read it and I just could not stop crying. I was like Jessica, why did you do this? So it is amazing, but it's available on your newsletter for everyone to view yeah, yeah, widely released for anyone who wants to read it.

Jessica Joyce:

And you know, I originally, I originally planned it to be just like one scene, like a scene from the book from his point of view and, of course, like everything you know, it just sort of ran away from me and all of a sudden it was like 32 pages and 8,000 words and like this whole, this whole concept, concept, you know, of five vignettes, of when, you know, he thought about loving her so um, but it was really fun.

Jessica Joyce:

It was fun to write and it was just so fun to like be back with them. You know, because I I wrote you with a view back in 2021, so it's been three years since I've touched those characters and, yeah, it was really fun to to visit them again, see them happy and I'm actually rereading you With a View right now, and it's kind of fun, after having read that POV, so soon going back and reading it.

Kristen Bahls:

There are little things that I didn't notice the first time that what did? Noelle say she said something the other day like, um, uh, no one's ever loved me like that or something, whenever she was talking about her grandma. I'm like, oh, I didn't catch that before and so now you know you can kind of catch all that.

Jessica Joyce:

So it it's really fun to read back yeah, I love those callbacks too, like I really wanted to include, like some of those callbacks that that you know tied back to um, to to you at the View, because I feel like readers are always so savvy about like catching that stuff, um, especially when they have a sort of the additional context of of Theo's point of view. So, yeah, I loved, I loved all making all of those little connections back to the original book.

Kristen Bahls:

Focusing on the expo, yeah, so okay, you've said on social media that you know a lot of like mundane things about all of your characters, um, so this is quite a question. But if you would like to share something about, of course, georgia and Eli, um, I mean, if you can think of something for Noelle and Theo and Claire and Connor, um I would. We would all appreciate that too. But anything you want to give us about them, that's something that maybe we haven't heard before in the books lately.

Jessica Joyce:

It's so funny because, like, I'm always like, I'm always just like sort of randomly thinking about, about stuff like that, like I was thinking recently about which of my characters would be most likely to like leave a function without saying goodbye, and I'm like, well, theo Spencer. Of course he would be like I don't even want to be here in the first place, like goodbye, um. So I think that he is like very much that type of person. Um, I think that I don't know, like with Eli, I put so much, so many like just like tiny tidbits of information. Like he loves puzzles and like he loves you know, he loves like getting inappropriate snacks at the airport, like, you know, eating chocolate at eight o'clock in the morning morning, and so I think, like you know, if someone, if someone like asks me a leading question, I can be like, oh yeah, like this person would do this and this person would do that, or if I see something happening, you know, in in the natural environment, I'd be like, oh, I think, I think Noelle would do that, like I think Georgia would organize her, her books, in rainbow order. You know what I mean. Like that I'll see. I'll like sort of like I'll see a post about that and be like, yeah, georgia would so do that, or like you know, just stuff like that.

Jessica Joyce:

But I've thought about like putting, like literally having a worksheet where I just like enter in random information and like put which character would do what under you know, like the Irish exit thing, or like who would let their gas tank get to zero before going to fill it up again and who would, like you know, at half a tank, would be at the gas station filling it up. You know, like all of that sort of stuff. Maybe I'll do that. I think it's like such a fun little thing to think about. Like you know, just them doing, like these very human things you know. So I do always think about that, yeah, but I need to write it down so that I can remember it.

Kristen Bahls:

And then every time you send out a newsletter, just include like one character's thing in there. Hey, I know, like here's your latest random tidbit. Yeah, I love that. Oh, oh, yeah, I forgot to even tell you earlier. Um, I have a book spreadsheet that I use that helps me keep up with like all the books, and I put little notes, little random things like that so there you go, you could have that and then you could also have a book spreadsheet for your book.

Kristen Bahls:

So then you'll, you'll have so many spreadsheets, you won't have time to ever update them in any way but you'll have them there and you can feel like yeah, I.

Jessica Joyce:

You know I love a good spreadsheet. I'm not good at them, but I do. I do appreciate them for what they are, for sure are for sure.

Kristen Bahls:

So georgia, theo eli and noelle they all went to the same high school.

Jessica Joyce:

Wait and claire also went to that high school, correct? She didn't, or she did not? No, she didn't. Claire and claire and connor aren't directly linked to them, um, until until connor goes to to work for Theo's company in the novella. So they're like a later addition to the universe. But yes, noel and Theo and Eli and Georgia all went to high school together, although actually Eli didn't, because he comes to Glenlake sophomore year and Noelle and Theo. In my head Noelle and Theo were seniors when yeah, when Georgia. So Georgia and Adam went to high school with them, but Eli missed them. So they would have graduated, yeah, in high school?

Kristen Bahls:

Yeah, that makes sense, I don't know why. Graduated in high school? Yeah, that makes sense. I don't know why, claire, for some reason I was thinking that there was something where she said something about Noel without saying Noel. I am totally wrong, but I don't know why. That's why I was thinking like she said something, I don't know. I felt like she said something about a girl from high school but, honestly, I could totally be wrong. That was Georgia. That was Georgia.

Kristen Bahls:

Yeah, that was Georgia what I was thinking of, claire. Yeah, I need to go back and reread. Yeah, I mean, if you must, yeah, oh man, um, so do you do? Do you intend to like continue in future books to include all the easter eggs all the time and kind of relate the characters, or is this next one going to be a little bit different?

Jessica Joyce:

No, I definitely like.

Jessica Joyce:

I just love, I love the concept of like invisible strings, and so I love the idea of there being sort of this continuation, like obviously they're not these books aren't are standalones, they're not sequels of each other in any way, shape or form.

Jessica Joyce:

But I also love the idea that, like, the world is much smaller than we think it is and that we could, you know, have even just these like really temporary connections with people, whether it's like you went to high school with each other and you still, like follow them on social media or or whatever. So I do want to still sort of have those, those little strings from from story to story, and I think you know it will evolve. Like I do love the idea of Theo and Noel sort of being like the original source material of, like all of these little connections, but I imagine, like at some point, like it will, you know, as more books become, get written and stuff like that, like that that sort of web will expand. So, yeah, I do. I do want to do like something in every book that people can be like oh my god, like that's you know whoever?

Kristen Bahls:

yeah, because I know people are always looking for those especially and I like how you never name the characters, so it's like a little extra treasure. Yeah, you have to try to remember exactly who and who did what. So what does your um initial kind of like character development process look like? I know you said it's kind of hard to talk about. You know what goes through your brain, but when you're kind of first deciding what a character like, should or shouldn't be, is there?

Kristen Bahls:

are there certain things that you think of first, or it's just kind of as you start building them.

Jessica Joyce:

I mean, usually what I do is I think of, like, what their emotional wound is. And so you know, like for Noelle, obviously, it was on one hand like her grandma dying and on the other her feeling like she wasn't successful, that she peaked in high school. And then, you know, for Georgia, it was really like this sense of feeling like she couldn't hold on to people and like couldn't be messy and like honest with her feelings or that you know, more people would leave her. So I usually start with some sort of emotional wound. I always call it like a thesis a little bit. You know, like what is the thesis of this book? And and, and that usually helps me sort of flesh out who these characters are, who the main character is for sure, like at first, and then usually what happens is I build everybody else around her Like it's her world and everyone. You know, it's like she's Barbie and everyone else is just Ken, you know. But I do obviously want to create depth in everybody who's on page, especially the love interest, and so I do tend to build everything else around like what is that core wound? You know, how would she behave Like? What would her personality be like if this was who she was Like.

Jessica Joyce:

For Georgia, an easy example is like if she's afraid to be messy and like, show people who she is, you know, for fear of them leaving her, then she would totally be a people pleaser and like, very sunshine and helpful and like let me do this, I'll do this for you, like, and never asking for help herself. And and so you know, some of that, just like think, comes naturally once I've identified what the wound is, and then some of it just sort of comes to pass as I'm writing the book. A lot of it, like I said, is discovery. I learn things about characters, main characters, secondary characters, whatever. As I'm writing too, I'll be like oh my gosh, well, I didn't know that that's the way you felt, but sure I'll put it down. Yeah, so that's typically how I approach it, and then everything gets fleshed out as I go.

Kristen Bahls:

Is there a character in the Ex-Files that kind of surprised you the most as you were writing it?

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, cole did. Who's Adam's cousin? You know the stirrer extraordinaire. Who's Adam's cousin? You know, mr Extraordinaire. And it's funny because I got an email today from somebody who had just read the X-Files and she was like please write a Cole book.

Kristen Bahls:

You know like I was just about to ask you, yeah.

Jessica Joyce:

Like I want a book about Cole.

Jessica Joyce:

So I have, I have heard that and he like, when I sort of outlined because because I never really I never outlined the way I think most people outline which is like here's what happens in chapter one, chapter two, I'm like, well, here's what could happen in the first three chapters, and then after that I don't know, like don't ask me.

Jessica Joyce:

And so you know, when I was sort of outlining and doing a synopsis of the X-Files, he like didn't even exist in my mind. But I did realize as I was drafting and as they were sort of getting closer to Blue Yonder, I'm like there needs to be somebody there who is gonna like keep them on their toes. And and so Cole, really, you know, sprang from from that need of they need to have somebody there who is going to like be suspicious and like force them to work together. You know, it's not enough that Adam and Grace are, you know, 60, 70 miles away expecting them to help out. So he kind of sprang from that and then, like I don't know, he just like took on a kind of sprang from that and then, like I don't know, he just like took on a life of his own from there.

Kristen Bahls:

All of a sudden, him and Eli were like friends and he knew all about you know what, and he had a little sweetheart side to him too does yeah, and honestly, like those are kind of my favorite characters where, like they present one way and like on the inside are just like soft and gooey.

Jessica Joyce:

So it would be cool to like to to play around with him in a full-length book, because I think that he does have like so many layers to him. He could wreak a lot of havoc, I think, which would be fun oh yeah, that would be a lot of fun.

Kristen Bahls:

It's on my list, I was gonna say, and he's kind of perfect because you put him in there just enough to where we know his personality, but you didn't like pigeonhole him into any one thing to where you could really kind of like take him wherever you want, want him to go exactly.

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, that that is by design. Yeah, I don't want to be.

Kristen Bahls:

I don't want to be stuck to anything that would be the worst, especially with your drafting process being stuck to.

Jessica Joyce:

That sounds like it would just kill your creativity, oh my god totally.

Kristen Bahls:

Yeah, that would be terrible. So if you were going to cast a film adaptation of the X-Files, who?

Jessica Joyce:

would you?

Kristen Bahls:

pick for Georgia and Levi.

Jessica Joyce:

This is such a good question. I've gotten this a few times recently and I always say first of all, I'm not good at, like, face casting my characters. I like I always have a clear idea of who they are in my head, but they don't look like a person that actually exists. But I think that, like with that, actually exists, but I think that, like with that in mind, I think that I would want two virtual unknowns, like I would. I can't think of anything like anyone super famous that I would be like oh, I would want them. You know, like that, that is my Georgia, that is my Eli. I feel like having somebody like people who don't have a fan awareness to them could be yeah, like they're that type of actor and they're yeah asked in this kind of role right exactly so I don't know.

Jessica Joyce:

I can't think of anybody off the top of my head that I'm like that, like that's Georgia, that's an Eli, but I, I'm also willing to be surprised, like Netflix. Call me and we can like, if you want to hire someone famous. I will get on board.

Kristen Bahls:

I had to, but this, like you said, it's so hard. I don't, I don't know you're. You might be like, nope, that's, that's not, but okay, okay here here's what I have. So they are a little bit on the older side, but if you think about it, you know there are like 30 year olds playing high school kids and the magic of like makeup and all that kind of stuff you know the the world's your oysters.

Kristen Bahls:

So I'm thinking possibly for Eli, I don't know why. I kind of saw Chase Crawford a little bit oh yeah, I could see that I thought that he might kind of have that like really attractive, but a little bit of like that smirk, that that kind of like trouble air. And then for Georgia, I was actually thinking like maybe Rachel Bilson, oh yeah, so I don't know, those were kind of my yeah, I could see that. Yeah, totally that I was playing around with.

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, I always love hearing what other people think, cause I'm like I see the vision. I totally see the vision.

Kristen Bahls:

And you're so close to it that I'm sure it's really hard, when you're that close to it, to ever look at any actors or actresses and pick anyone. Yeah, 100%.

Jessica Joyce:

Because I'm like, well, I know all of these things about them and it's more nuanced than that, but it really isn't. I mean. You know, when it comes down to it it's not it really isn't.

Kristen Bahls:

I mean, you know, when it comes down to it it's not true. And hopefully, if the actors, like, had the screenplay in their hands, then they would adapt to totally so. It is hard to pick, you know, based on who's done what exactly out there. Oh my gosh. Um, so in in the acknowledgements of the ex-files, you talk a little bit about how the book changed from the original and, like you said earlier, so you wrote the ex-files, put it away yeah wrote you with the view and then kind of rewrote it and came back with it.

Kristen Bahls:

Yeah, how, how did that work? And how did you part with the characters that you had before?

Jessica Joyce:

it was hard, it was really hard at first and I rewrote the first, you know, the first third of that book like three different times because I was just like I don't know who they are as this version of people, you know. And so the first version I wrote was it was friends to lovers, wrote was it was friends to lovers. It was still. You know, adams was a piece of the pie for sure, but like Eli and Georgia got together halfway through the book and then the rest of the book was them dealing with like long distance um dating, and it just didn't follow sort of like the natural beats of a romance book that I think you need in order to maintain tension and like intrigue and all sorts of stuff. So in hindsight I see why it didn't go anywhere. I'm like, oh yeah, duh. So I had that sort of in mind when I decided to reimagine it. I was like, well, that like the stakes need to be higher, the tension needs to be higher, and I think Second Chance has like such a natural tension to it and it's very emotion-based, which I love. Like I love digging into character emotions, I love like getting in the mess of it, like I just I love, all of that, and so having them be exes versus friends felt like an easy way for me to take it to the next level, and I do think that friends to lovers can have a ton of tension the way I did it. It didn't so, but I read plenty of friends to lovers that I've been like on the edge of my seat. So it was it's not the trope, it's me, but I felt like, you know, second Chance really did have that, that level up that I wanted for the book and so but yeah, it was hard because, you know, obviously I had written this other version of them, the friends to lovers version.

Jessica Joyce:

He was a lot more jokey and like sort of like devil may care, and in the second chance version obviously he's pretty internal, he's quieter, he is a lot more serious, he's dealing with anxiety, you know, and and that felt like it's sort of a necessary change because I wanted like, even though Georgia knows, like she knows him so well, there had to be an element of him, of her not knowing a piece of him this present day and I think like a quieter personality fits that a little bit better.

Jessica Joyce:

So I had to sort of reimagine that too and it was very hard. For a while, I think, probably until I got like halfway through the book, the draft, I was always sort of in my mind, referencing that other version and being like, oh, but in that version they do this and like, am I really going to do this instead? And I, you know, once I got sort of halfway through, then I'm like, okay, well, this is a totally different story, so I'm just like thinking about them in a different way. But it was very difficult for sure to like get to that point. It was very painful, unfortunately.

Kristen Bahls:

I can't imagine, and I mean like you said, it really does work out better, because not only did they lose each other, as like in a relationship stance, but they lost that friendship that, yeah, they had for so long, and it's you feel it a little bit greater and why she's so totally destroyed, because it's just a total loss.

Kristen Bahls:

Yeah, exactly, yeah, that would be so hard, but it worked out at the end. It worked out in the end, was it? Was it you that kind of made the decision to change it, or was it like feedback from other people or what kind of like tipped the pendulum a little bit?

Jessica Joyce:

Well, when I got the deal, when I got the book deal with Berkeley, it was a two book deal and they had asked, you know, in the process of talking to them before I signed the contract, they were like you know, do you have an idea for a second book?

Jessica Joyce:

And I'm sort of like it's hard for me to come up with multiple ideas at once, like if I'm, if I'm working on an idea, like that is my entire life, that is my world, and so I didn't really cause I had just been, I obviously had just come off you With A View, and so I didn't really have anything like anything new in mind. But I knew that I had Georgia and Eli and I knew that I had to write it differently. And so, you know, the second chance element and all of that sort of came from me, cause I was like, well, I know that it has to be stronger than this, and so that was the concept that I, that I pitched to, that my agent pitched to to Berkeley. But you know that the second chance element of it definitely came from me in terms of like this is how I want to reimagine it.

Kristen Bahls:

That makes sense. I mean, and you changed my mind, second chance was not my favorite. And you, you changed my mind, second Chance was not my favorite and you changed my mind.

Jessica Joyce:

I love it. That's the ultimate compliment.

Kristen Bahls:

Every time I hear that I'm like, yes, okay, perfect. I actually had someone else that we were chatting and they were like I mean I don't love it, but you know, I'll read it because I'll read anything, especially if it's, you know, by someone you like and it sounds good. And I had someone that was like I will not read second chance, I won't read it, and I was like just read, it and they were like okay, okay, fine, fine, I'll add it so it was on their TBR and obviously.

Kristen Bahls:

I am just like patiently waiting whenever, like, they get there. So how are we feeling? I, yeah, I appreciate your reading, I love it. So how? I mean we talked a little bit about it, just the pressure in general.

Jessica Joyce:

But how do you kind of like keep writing fun for yourself when you have all the pressure and the deadlines yeah, I mean I, it is really hard and I think I'm still trying to find that balance right of like, how, how do I protect the joy of writing with, um, you know, writing books that are palatable to a market, um, because ultimately, like that is also important for better or worse, and and so I think you know sort of where I'm landing. Is that? And this is the spirit in which I think I wrote you With A View, and the Ex-Fahos is like ultimately, I have to write a book for myself first, um, and you know I can keep in mind the elements of something having a good hook and being compelling and all of these different things. But but it's also important that, like, I'm interested in the book that I'm writing because I'm going to be writing it every day for months and months and months. I have to be compelled by it, and so I think a lot of the things that I'm focusing on now are like what are the little moments that I love as a reader, that I can infuse in as a writer? Like, what are the scenes or moments that I can look forward to? What are elements that I want to push myself with or just play around with, or whatever you know, I do like to challenge myself to write, write in a way that is obviously still me, but like I don't know, I just I like I want to push myself creatively and and and not worry about the risk of of what that means, you know, commercially. And so you know it's a fine balancing act because I think, as a published writer like you can't fully turn that voice off. That's like this book is going to be read by other people Like I.

Jessica Joyce:

I think in the past I've been like, well, just don't think about that. And it's like well, no, I have. Like I can't not think about that. That's not something that I can, you know, forget, but but I can acknowledge that and honor it and still recognize that for me what's most important is that I'm loving it first, because I think when I love a book, if I love the book more than anyone else, like that feels a little bit like a protection against, against burnout, or like getting my feelings hurt if I'm tagged in the negative review or whatever it's like.

Jessica Joyce:

I mean, I find that annoying but I'm not going to. Like, I think that I'm not going to be swayed by someone else's opinion because ultimately, I know what my opinion is of the books that I write and I love them so much and I'm proud of them, and I always want to write books that that feel like that and so sort of. For me, it's like writing amidst the noise and remembering what my number one priority is, which is to write a book that I love. Um, and it's a constant reminder, uh, that I don't, I don't think, probably, it probably never goes, goes away, but it's, I think, very important.

Kristen Bahls:

That makes sense. That actually reminds me of something that Rachel and Solomon said whenever she was trying to figure out one of her YA books and she said that she got stuck and she was like I realized that I didn't like the chapter and I was like how?

Jessica Joyce:

is anyone?

Kristen Bahls:

else gonna like the chapter if I don't like the chapters she's like, like then I decided to just change it and go a different direction.

Jessica Joyce:

I'm like wow you know, those are the things that you don't think about until you're in it and then yeah it just it helps and it seems like so obvious, but it isn't always because, again, like you are so aware that there is an audience out there, um, but like you're the audience too, you're the audience for yourself and you're the first audience and you know it has to pass that check before it can go on to anyone else.

Kristen Bahls:

So can you tell me a little bit more kind of about your, like, overall writing journey, how you got from fanfic which twilight yeah, okay, twilight fanfic to going trad and yeah getting a deal and kind of how you ended up there.

Jessica Joyce:

I wrote fanfic in, I think it was from like 2009 to 2011, and that was like really the peak of of the Twilight fandom and um, and so I sort of exited the fandom as it was, I think, starting to to cool down and I took a break, you know, from sharing my writing. I didn't move on to any other fandoms. I never wrote fanfic for anyone, you know, any other, any other fandom, and you know I had a kid and I, you know, had another job, and so I think I got sort of like obviously wrapped up in that part of my life for an extended period of time and then, when the pandemic hit, I was just kind of like, well, you know, this has been a thing that's been in the back of my mind for a really long time and I just, like you, just never know right, like what's going to happen in life, what things are going to hit us collectively or individually, and I just need, I just need to see if I can do this, you know, and and I I guess at that point I was just like I don't want to leave anything on the table and so in 2020 slash early 2021, I wrote that version of that other version of of Georgia and Eli. I. Um, I got onto Twitter, which at the time RIP to it, but at the time it was like a very robust resource for the writing community and the romance writing community in particular. So I found, you know, my critique partners, I found beta readers.

Jessica Joyce:

I, you know, revised the Georgia and Eli book and then started sending it out to agents. I think I sent it to like 15 or 20 agents at the most. And I had a sense pretty early on because at the time I was surrounded by other writers who were querying and stuff. So I could see like when the querying was a success, I could see sort of the speed at which it was happening and like the volume at which agents were requesting, and you know, manuscripts and stuff like that. And that just wasn't what was happening for for me with that manuscript and so and I also I run on like a hundred percent gut instinct, like I'm zero strategy, but I was like I just know something's off, like something isn't right, and so I started writing you With a View in May of 2021. I wrote it through the summer. I finished it in September.

Kristen Bahls:

Wow, that is so fast.

Jessica Joyce:

Yeah, it was so fast. I will never be able to do that again. I honestly wish that I hadn't written it so fast, because and now I know that I'm capable of it, but like I will never do that again, like it's just not, it's not realistic, but so anyway. So I, you know, queried again just like a handful of agents, you know, because I had my other experience in the back of my mind and I'm like, well, I just want like a small data sample to see if this is viable. And I remember I submitted it to one agent in particular on September 23rd and she wrote me back on September 25th, which was my mom's birthday, and was like I, I devoured this book, like I want to talk to you, yada, yada. I talked to a few other agents and ended up going with, you know, the agent that I have now, samantha Fabian, and by the end of October we were on sub, on submission with with you With A View, and I had signed my, or I had agreed to a deal with Berkeley, like right before Thanksgiving. So it was very fast. Yeah, that is so fast. In that instance it was very fast and I think, you know, I'm glad that I have. I mean, I wasn't glad at the time but now, in hindsight again, I'm really glad that I had that, you know, that first experience to know that like it's just, it really depends on the manuscript, like it could, you know, it could just be right time, right place and, and for you with a view it was, and so so, yeah, yeah, things did go quickly.

Jessica Joyce:

But I also know that speed isn't necessarily an indication of success, because I know so many writers who have been on sub for six months or nine months or a year or whatever, and still ended up with great deals. Still ended up with with great deals, and so it it's just, it's so funny to to look at everybody's sort of path to publication and see how different it is. You know, and now there are a lot of, um, indie authors who end up going um, traditional or hybrid, and everybody's path is so different, like there are a million, literally probably, different ways to get published and they're all so valid. Especially, you know, when I was sort of in the querying world, like traditional publishing was the thing that you did and it was like I want to get signed by a big five house. This is what I want my advance to be. This is like dah, dah, dah, dah.

Jessica Joyce:

And now I think, yeah, and I know we were talking about this a little bit, but now I think it's like you have so many different options and they're all, like all you know, a possibility for success. Like I don't, I don't think necessarily one one way to do it sets you up for success more, more than another way, and I think I think that we're we're lucky to sort of live in the landscape that we do now with writing, because there there are just so many options and they're all like very solid options. So I love that, like if, like I told you, if I were, if I were in that seat right now, like if I were querying right now, like I would be looking at indie too, I think you know, they're all just such great ways to to get your work out there into the world and obviously, like it's all such hard work, like, not to say that like, yeah, there's no easy way at all.

Kristen Bahls:

There's no easy way, but there are lots of great ways but they're all very hard. Let me be clear. Um, yeah, so not for the faint of heart at all. Yeah, so not for the faint of heart at all. Not for the faint of heart.

Jessica Joyce:

Not at all, but it is. You know. It is definitely rewarding when you know people reach out to you and are like I read this book and I love it. And here's why and you know, they give you sort of personal accounts of how they're feeling about the work you put out. It's just like no other feeling.

Kristen Bahls:

And I'm sure seeing all the collages and all the cool stuff, that yeah that's next level. Cool. Yeah, it's amazing. It's just, it's so. It's like a dream. Oh, and didn't, wasn't there an animation?

Jessica Joyce:

for the.

Kristen Bahls:

X-Files. Yeah, I forgot about that for a second.

Jessica Joyce:

That was so cool. Yeah, the bookish animator, julia, she's amazing. She had reached out and said that she was going to do something like that and I was just like, oh my God, that's amazing. And then she posted what she had created and it's phenomenal. Just the amount of talent that's out there like people like and people doing this stuff for free. I think is is just I don't know. It blows my mind.

Kristen Bahls:

it really does, oh yeah okay, well, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to me. Thank you, of course, and that's that's it for today. Thanks for listening to where I left off a bookish podcast. You can sign up for jessica's newsletter, which I would highly recommend, and you can purchase her novels through the links in the show notes. Stay tuned for next time, thank you, thank you.