Where I Left Off

The Retirement Plan with Author Sue Hincenbergs

• Kristen Bahls • Season 2 • Episode 47

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Thanks to author Sue Hincenbergs for joining me to talk about her debut, The Retirement Plan. 

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Speaker 1:

Welcome back. I'm Kristen Balls and you're listening to when I Left Off a bookish podcast, and today I'm joined by Sue Hensenberg, the author of the Retirement Plan. Thank you so much for joining me today, sue. Thank you for inviting me. The first question that I always ask everyone, because authors just have the best recommendations what are you currently reading right now?

Speaker 2:

Oh, let's see, I've always loved John Grisham, so I just finished reading one of his books. And then one of the authors I've just discovered, as I've been visiting a lot of bookstores, is SA Cosby. I was in a bookstore in the South and they told me about him. I'm like, oh, I have to look into him. So I just finished reading, I have to look what. It was my Darkest Prayer.

Speaker 1:

And now I'm reading Blacktop Wasteland and then I know he's got another new book coming out shortly Nice, and you talked a little bit about visiting some bookstores. You've kind of had this whole book tour going for the retirement plan. How was that?

Speaker 2:

book tour going for the retirement plan. How was that? It was great. You know, book people are kind of the best people. You go in and then you just start talking about books and like that was one of the things is like to discover like a whole new author I'd never heard of. I don't know if it's just he's not that well known in Toronto and Canada or what, but it was just really good. And then in like another state, I was reminded about Pat Conroy, who I used to read when I was much younger. Like, uh, gosh Conrock was one of his books. I forget the others, but um, anyway, like I picked up one of his. I'm dying to read too, uh, south of Broad.

Speaker 1:

So it was, it was good, it's just and that was just somebody mentioning it, you know that and reminding me about how much I enjoyed those books and it's funny how you could kind of like default to your normal authors if you know you don't think about like branching out, and then all it takes is someone to talk about someone else and you're like, oh, I need to give them a try.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, exactly yeah.

Speaker 1:

And what can you tell us currently about your work in progress, if anything?

Speaker 2:

Well, I've finished it and it's just in revisions and it's on the same tone. It took me a while to figure out, like exactly what my voice is and what I, what I liked and and I hopefully what my readers will like, you know. So I wanted to keep them, something as a good follow-up to the retirement plan. So it's the same kind of thing a crime, friendship, marriage and in a neighborhood type thing.

Speaker 1:

So working on that, Nice and do you know if it'll be out next year? It's supposed to be out 2027.

Speaker 2:

The winter of 2027 we're aiming for.

Speaker 1:

Nice. Yay, wow, that's quick. He was really quick.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, Really, Because for me it seems so long it's like you know, the longest pregnancy ever.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, but you know, your book is just coming out and then you already have revisions on another one.

Speaker 2:

That seems quick or a trad pub yeah, and actually I'm glad I did it that way. And another author I was having dinner with and she asked me about the second book and I said, oh, I've already handed it in and without even realizing it. She said that's really smart, because once, like now, I'm tied up with retirement plan, like so I'm so distracted from writing that I'm looking forward to like things quieting down and then I can get back back to it.

Speaker 1:

Do you already have an idea for the next book once you finish book two?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, kind of yeah, that's more like a family thing. I find like I think the strength of the retirement plan is the humor, like it's a really good tight plot, but then I love that there's I've layered humor in on it. So I was trying to look for another good situation scenario that you could mine for a lot of humor and, like you know, I think I found one that I'm waiting to dive into.

Speaker 1:

And overall like how do you balance humor in your book with kind of serious subject matters too, Because that seems like a hard balance to strike.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think what's most important is plot. I think if I stripped away the humor, the book would still, I think, be really strong just on plot. And to me the humor is just like buttercream frosting, you know, it's just like it just makes it better. Buttercream frosting, you know, it's just like it just makes it better. But the book could stand alone on plot and keep, keep people surprised and engaged. But the humor is just, it's like the most fun for me, like as much as I enjoyed the plot and piecing together the puzzles, like it's like a jigsaw in a lot of ways.

Speaker 2:

If I could make a scene interesting and make it funny, that's what I would do. Sometimes I would have a scene that would just be business, like this is what has to happen in this. But then it's like how can I make that funny? And whenever there's friends there's, there should be funny, like even in, like the, the worst moments of something there's, like there's something about that they'll make your, your friend can make you laugh, and so that's what I tried to do and I love those, those kind of movies too. If you ever watched Die Hard, you know the old Bruce Willis movie, like that's, that's the same kind of thing right, it's like strong plot, lots of action, and yet still he's in the ductwork going go to LA. They said it'll be fun. They said you know, and that's the the what I took away from that movie. I liked those kind of moments.

Speaker 1:

That's a good point. I mean even in like all the Oceans movies, it's pretty intense, but you have a lot of humor in there and that's why they resonate.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it just feels like you're watching the plot, you're caught up in it, but when you're laughing with them, it just. To me it takes it from like a six to a 10.

Speaker 1:

That makes sense. I never thought about it that way. So something new, yeah. Can you tell me a little bit more about your author journey as a whole and kind of how you went from a TV producer to an author?

Speaker 2:

It was a dream I'd always had. So it was finally just realizing I had to get going on it. You know, I wasn't getting any younger. I was asked when I was retiring and it was just like I was. I was floored because I thought how old do you think I am? And then I had to think about. I remember thinking about it on my way home. I was like, wow, I am that old. I should be thinking about that. And the one thing I'd always had in my mind was in my retirement I'd always pictured myself writing. And here I was, I was almost 16. I'd never written anything like not since, you know, high school and university. So it was like I better get going on that. So I had a break that summer, just six weeks in between shows, and I thought like, if not now, when? And I just started. And then it wasn't easy from that. Like it was, I started writing really bad books and then then and then it just kind of evolved from there so the retirement plan wasn't the first book you wrote no, I wrote it

Speaker 2:

was the third book. So I wrote two, queried them and, as I said, it took me a while to find my voice and figure out it was the, the dark humor and the crime and uh, and then allow myself to like make it funny. So yeah, the second book I wrote I thought was not bad, like I queried it widely but had no luck getting an agent and I really did feel like it was as good as some things I'd seen on the shelf but still it didn't hit. So then I just set it aside and I thought like well, what else could I write? And I know I was.

Speaker 2:

I really felt I was as good as what I was reading some places but I just hadn't found it yet. So it's just like I said about Die Hard, right, but that's the kind of movie I like to go to. So I thought I'm going to read a book like I'd want to see in a movie and just with the twists and turns, like I like the Coen brothers and I like Tarantino, I like Elmer Leonard, I liked Get Shorty. I read Get Shorty just before I started reading, writing this book, and I found I like the pacing, I like the surprises.

Speaker 1:

So I just kept that in mind as I approached this. And of course you know, with film story structure I feel like that helps too, and with your background it makes it a little bit easier to kind of take that and adapt it into a fast paced book.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, because the people only have so much attention and that's what I learned in TV is that you have to catch them quickly and keep them, and it's the same in in writing. You know it's less. You can't indulge yourself into thinking they're going to want to spend time with you, because time's precious and people want. They're very careful about how they spend it. So if you can't hold them and grab them, like they're not just going to read to, you know, to humor you. To get to the next chapter where things happen.

Speaker 1:

And with the second book that you queried, that you liked, would you ever self-publish it or revise it, or is it just kind of on the shelf for now?

Speaker 2:

No, it's totally gone, because it's kind of was a blessing in disguise to not get that book sold, because then I probably would have written at that level forever, and it not being able to sell it just made me elevate, you know, my ideas and think a little bit tighter. I think, as opposed to it was low hanging fruit, I think that's the way to say it. I think that second book was a really well written, low hanging piece of fruit, and so I'm happy to have said goodbye to it. And now I've kind of know I don't know what readers want, but I know what I'd like to give them.

Speaker 1:

And where did the specific inspiration for this story come from?

Speaker 2:

Well, it's about four couples that have been friends for 30 years and the humor is in those friendships and also in the marriages. Right, so I've been married a long time, but her friends we made friends 30 years ago when our kids were little, and in sports, and even though our kids are kind of they're older, there's some they still hang around to see each other periodically. We still see those same couples. So there's eight of us all together. We're having dinner one night. They're all around my kitchen table and we just a lot of fun. Like it's the kind of group when you get together you look at your watch. I was like, oh my God, it's four in the morning. Like you know, we got to get home, you know what's going on?

Speaker 1:

It feels like five minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it just like flew by.

Speaker 2:

So with that I was at the kitchen table and I looked around and I was looking at them and I remembered how my parents had really great group of friends and when they started passing away, how sad it was. And I thought about my friends and I thought, geez, I wonder which of us will die first. And that's like essentially the first line of the book.

Speaker 1:

And that was a very powerful first line of the book. Whenever I read that, I was like wait, what you liked it. Yeah, I liked it, I liked it.

Speaker 2:

It caught me from the beginning. Oh, that's good, it was pretty much the same, like I never changed it. That was like essentially the first line and I held it. The only thing I added to it was, if you remember it's Pam licked margarita salt from her lips. I added the margarita salt like on the third pass because I just well they're drinking like to just let you know that it's like a fun night, what kind of table it was and kind of what evening it was, give you a better sense of the atmosphere.

Speaker 1:

That's really funny that in all the revisions that stayed the same, because I've heard that the first chapter gets the most you know demolished.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I know well, you spend so much attention on it, right, because that's the one that will get you through the gate. So it was pretty much the same. It got tweaked a little bit in editing, like the professional editors. When they came on board they asked for a little bit more information in that, but it's pretty much the same.

Speaker 1:

So, in your opinion, what are some of the biggest pitfalls in a thriller and how do you try to avoid those? Because thrillers are kind of a hard genre. I feel like you either really like it or you really really don't. Kind of thrillers, mystery crime, all of them.

Speaker 2:

I'm not an authority on this, I just have, like my own feelings on things and I thought it's um, it's kind of revealing and teasing. It's like you want to seed something but the question is, how much is too seeded? Or you know what I mean. It's like at what point do you start to annoy people and that you hint at something? How long can you drag it out? So I tried to find a balance with that, where that I didn't kind of impose on people too long that they hadn't. But mind you, like you said earlier before, we were talking about how the one one thing you wonder about the whole book you don't find out until the very end, but still I think everything else. I tried to have payoffs come pretty quickly so that you did wonder about stuff. But I also think it's really important that I think every loose end should be tied up, and I think I did that. I really tried to, because otherwise you walk away from that book and you're like wait what? What happened there?

Speaker 1:

true, I didn't walk away with any questions, so I got everything answered for the retirement plan, and I am also one that tends to go wait a minute. I really want to know what happened with that.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I thought that's kind of the beauty of it when things can dovetail and you can have like little surprises, like that's what I love in those movies and I see it more in movies than I do, than I've read in books actually but where there's a little payoff, and those are, to me, are worth their weight in gold, and so I've tried to have a few of those.

Speaker 1:

Well, if you love payoff and surprises, you need to try Allie Carter's books. Those are so good. Oh my gosh, the Most Wonderful Crime of the Year. The Most Wonderful Crime of the Year Okay, that one. It has a payoff in the middle. That threw me. It threw me in the best way. I'm writing that one down, thank you. I cannot give up a book. So, with the retirement plan, what was the biggest challenge when writing the book overall?

Speaker 2:

It came pretty quickly. To tell you the truth, I did have to when I was almost finished writing it when I realized it needed, it needed a dog. So I had to go back and add the dog in because essentially, the villain says I'm not a villain. And I thought, yeah, like how did I actually like sat here and I thought maybe he isn't? How do you know he is a villain, like I know he's a villain but the people in that room don't know.

Speaker 2:

And then I thought, well, save the cat, the save the cat mentality. Right, if you want to know a character's decently, a decent person, you have them. Save an animal. So I thought, well, it has to work. Conversely, if you want to know they're vile, you have them hurt an animal. So I thought I need a dog and I literally like looked beside me and there was my dog, who's like a middle aged, scruffy rescue dog who has a lot of personality and quirks, and I just started writing him into the book. That's amazing, elmer was born. Yeah, I know, I wish I could say it was. He was from my imagination, the way he's missing half his teeth and he's a really weird body shape. He's long and short and scruff and he just he spits out treats and he always flops down on the air conditioning. But all of that was my dog.

Speaker 1:

So what famous dog would you say is most like Elmer, even though he was kind of adapted after your dog? If you were going to pick one, either in personality or looks, I guess.

Speaker 2:

Gosh. Well, it's funny People. When I walk my dog, sometimes we'll say he's like a Disney character. So there was an old dog named Tramp. I don't even know what kind of sitcom he was on, but he was just one of those dogs who was just always around and into trouble. So he's kind of like he definitely could have been named like a Tramp type of dog.

Speaker 1:

What is your favorite scene that you can't wait for readers to get to?

Speaker 2:

I kind of love like I love the friendships and I love the chatting, you know, and just sitting around and the dynamic of the women and the men too. But the one I think I was really I really liked is when the women try and hire a hitman, you know when they're in their minivan, and I just thought that was. I loved that one and I just love the different layers in that and that we have it from the hitman's point of view that he's like what is going on in here.

Speaker 2:

In their donuts? Yeah, that's right. Their donuts in their water, yeah.

Speaker 1:

Okay. So with such a character centered story and such a strong friend group, what kind of like research or pre-planning did you do kind of on each character before writing them and did their personalities kind of surprise you as you got going?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I knew there had to be kind of distinctive and because there's the four groups in my mind really, I thought off the bat people don't really have to differentiate each of the women. They just have to know there's the husbands and the wives and they know that these groups are going forward and then as they get deeper into the book they'll learn more about each character. Because you know, it's just the two trajectories the men have one plan and the women have another. So I hope people didn't get too caught up with trying to think, well, who's Pam and who's Nancy? You know, you just know it's all the women and then you'll. You'll sort stuff out with them. But as I've tried to differentiate them, there's different women in every group, right, there's when you go out to lunch with your friends. There's always somebody who wants to figure out how much everybody owes and there's always somebody who's late. So it's just like they're kind of superficial. But they're those kinds of things that you think about.

Speaker 2:

The research I did for the men was just in the sense that I wasn't sure, like I know how women talk when they're together, and I had an idea about men. I have three sons and they're all like right around 30 now. So and brothers and all. So I've been around a lot of men and I know how they talk. But I would ask my husband, like if four men were in a boat and talking about their marriages, like what would they say? Would they say this, like, would they really reveal that, or is it kind of quieter, closer, more cryptic? And so I got feedback on that, on how those men would handle conversations, and I think it was pretty realistic. From what I've heard, people seem to think oh, that's pretty relatable.

Speaker 1:

I thought it was realistic. Yep, I agree. Okay, speaking of the women, so if they were in high school, what cliques do you think that Pam, nancy, shalisa and Marlene would have belonged to?

Speaker 2:

Well, they wouldn't be the cheerleaders, they probably had been the student council people, the people who just like organize things and know what they want to get done, and they they know what kind of party they want to go to, so they they're take charge, so it'll be that kind of party Like they. They want to make sure that it's not like a Hawaiian theme. So you know, whatever, whatever their, their preferences, I think that I don't think they'd be athletic. They wouldn't have been like sporty gals. So, yeah, they'd have been kind of running it, but probably not doing a really great job at that either. There probably would have one of them would have been done doing more of the heavy lifting than the others.

Speaker 1:

I could agree. And then, of course, if they're student council, then they'd have to plan the reunions, and Pam has so much practice planning different events in her house, so that that would work really well. Yeah yeah, that's right. And then overall, what has been the most rewarding experience throughout the entire process so far?

Speaker 2:

The way my friends have jumped on board as happy as I am for me. It just like blows my mind how happy they are for me. You know, just in terms of the social media, like the support there, the emails, the flowers I've been receiving you know a lot of flowers and that just really excited, like especially the friends of whom, like the four couples, it's kind of you know, was lot of flowers in that, just really excited like especially the friends of whom, like the four couples, it's kind of you know, was the loose foundation for the book. I had to kind of let them know early in the process that I was writing a book and it was kind of you know some of our quirks of our friendship are in that book.

Speaker 2:

And then like there's a pedicure scene. That pedicure scene is almost verbatim, you know the four of us lined up in the pedicure wondering who's going to get Marlene, you know who's going to have to do her feet, stuff like that. Like we have laughed so hard in those chairs. So I told them, let them know about that and they were not one like hesitation or anything, it's just all like all, all in on all for it. So it's been really gratifying that I can make them happy too.

Speaker 2:

And then is there anything else that you would like readers to know Well it's, it's been quite the journey, it's been really fulfilling on it and it's it's working out for me, like right now I'm a number one bestseller in Canadian fiction, in Canada. Congratulations, thank you. And like, who would have thought that? Like I didn't? You know, I sat here and I didn't have a clue if I could do this or if I should. You know, I started thinking like it's taking a lot of time, should I not be doing something else more constructive? It was a dream I'd had and I thought, well, why not Like, why not me? And so, and if not now, when, why not me?

Speaker 2:

And then I came back to the thought that the only thing I knew for sure is, if I didn't try, nothing would happen. So I just kept at it. And then, um, I changed, so I didn't keep at it doing the same thing. It's like you can't just keep trying to write the same book or queering the same people, like you have to change things up and do the research. But by doing that, somehow or other, it hit. And you know, and it's out there now in the world. And who would have thought? It started right here, with just me laughing by myself? And now, like you know you've read it and you seem to have liked it, so that makes my day.

Speaker 1:

Well, congratulations. That's a huge accomplishment to have a book out in the world.

Speaker 2:

Thank you. Yeah, it just shows you right If you go for things that can't come true.

Speaker 1:

You never know what will happen.

Speaker 2:

Exactly.

Speaker 1:

That's it for today. Thanks for listening to when I Left Off a bookish podcast. You can visit Sue's site, follow her on social media in the links below, and then you can purchase her novels anywhere books are sold.