Where I Left Off

Fake Out Make Out with Author Kate Williams

• Kristen Bahls • Season 3 • Episode 12

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Thanks to author Kate Williams for taking the time to talk to me about Fake Out Make Out. 

Fake Out Make Out is available June 4th (eBook, Audiobook, and Paperback) for UK listeners. 

For US and Canadian listeners, purchase the eBook and Audiobook June 4th, and the paperback will be available March 2027. 

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For links to the books discussed in this episode, click the link here to take you to the Google Doc to view the list. 

For episode feedback, future reading and author recommendations, you can text the podcast by clicking the "Send us a message button" above. 

For more, follow along on Instagram @whereileftoffpod.

Welcome + Current Reads

Welcome back. I'm Kristen Balls, and you're listening to Where I Left Off, a Bookish Podcast. And today I'm joined by an author of several different genres with works such as The Infinite Infinite, Interview with the Van Lifer, Enemies of Peace, Anne Heifer, and many, many more. Today we're talking about her upcoming release, Fake Out Makeout. Thank you so much for joining me, Kate. Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to be on this podcast because there was a time, like a couple months ago, I was actually listening in the car. I was like, I think I need to get over and like send her an Instagram message because I was like, oh, like I'm in conversation with you. I'm like, no, this is a podcast. Like, so now we're actually gonna get to talk. So, yes, I'm very excited to be here. This is the best. And I hold you in such high regard. You are so helpful to all of the authors that you meet, and your resources are fantastic, which of course we will get into those and they'll be linked down below in the show notes for anyone that wants to take advantage, because I would highly recommend it. Thank you. I appreciate that. So, of course, you know, since you're a listener, the first question that I always ask everyone is what are you currently reading and or watching right now? So, right now I am reading the Jezebel list by Alyssa Dean. So, part of the launch for Fake Out Makeout is I joined the Discord server of 2026 Debut Authors because this is a debut for me, even though I've been around a while, uh, because it's a new pen name, it's a new genre. Um, so I got to join and a lot of the romance authors we got together to do what's called like an arc tour. Oh, that's so cool. So each author has like a sheet on a spreadsheet and they send it arcs around. So I've been getting to read all year these amazing arcs of fellow 2026 debut romance authors. So Jezebel list, I'm currently reading. I am hooked. I am so excited. I have a stack, a mountain of arcs to read though, and it is intimidating, uh, but also exciting. That is like the best ever. So to get on that Discord list, uh, did your publisher send you a link and so that way you could meet with others, or did you kind of find it on your own? I found it on my own. So I joined a private Facebook group called On Submission when they got makeup, went on went on submission from my agent to editors. And so usually at some point, you're seeing authors post like, oh, I have an offer. What's the Discord server for my year? Um, and so there's always somebody that has that. Or if you're not part of a group, I think you can just do like a Google search for 2026 debut, 2027 debut. You'll probably find a website. Usually there's one really organized person in the bunch who will make the website and they had a Google form to fill out to say, hey, are you a debut author? What's your genre? Um, so they do vet everybody coming in to make sure they're legit. There's not just some looky loo trying to get in there. But then the that server's been amazing just to coordinate doing collaborations on Instagram posts, just connecting with each other. Also a chance to say, like, is anybody else having XYZ happen to them right now? Or am I in the wrong here for thinking this timeline should be different? So it's just been so helpful on so many levels. So yeah, if you are debut author, um, you can just search debut and your year and find a server for that. That is amazing to be able to not feel like you're in a vacuum just doing everything by yourself. And like you said, especially when you're like, is this accurate? Is this supposed to be happening this way? It's nice to hear other voices too. Absolutely. It's it's helped me calm down a few times to be like, okay, this is normal. And I don't know if we just got lucky this year or if every year there's one or two in the bunch, but there's a few people who are debut authors who also work in publishing. So they've been really helpful to be like, this, yep, that's fully normal, or I've seen this. And so kind of that extra person who, again, has no vested interest in your book to be like, yes, this is good, or like, no, I'd reach out to your agent on that. We're just, you know, commiserating with each other and collaborating with each other has been really great. Okay. I'm so glad that you found that. Yeah. So, what can you tell us about your current work in progress? So I was already with this answer because I saw your questions and I was like, I am working on nothing right now and it's really hard for me. My big thing with when fake out makeout got a deal was I was like, okay, I am going all in. I am not going to get distracted by a new project. I'm just going to focus on marketing this one. I did write a book while this book was on submission because I needed to stay sane. So that's done. That's like sitting and it's like you're going to rest for a bit stage. And I was like, I'm not going to write anything else until this book gets published. And then we're into summer now. So my daughter's on summer break, and I was like, I know me. And if I start to work on something, my brain's just going to spin up all these ideas and I'm going to get really invested. And I wanted to hold off on starting a new book until the fall when she starts school. I have some that I want to outline and start to like jot down nodes, but not start. And then Thursday night, I was in bed and it was like a lightning strike in my head with an idea for a follow-on to that book that's now sitting. So I may have a work in progress starting soon, despite my best efforts. But I'm actively trying to just focus on fake out, make out because with my previous self-published books, wearing all the hats, doing all the things, I always let marketing slide. Like by the time I got to the finish line, I would just be like, hey, it's out. Wanna read it? Like I was just so exhausted and I was like, I need to do the full court press here. I've been doing that, but I do still have an idea. Yay. I'm glad that you're giving yourself a break, even though it's not really, really a break when you're spending so much time on marketing. It's just replacing that writing time with marketing time, but still, at least you're not trying to just tack on stuff. Yeah, I feel like there's just so much pressure on authors to keep writing, writing, writing. And why aren't you quick enough? And you need to write more. But it's a creative process. It's hard. It is. It is. And like I know how I get when I'm engrossed in writing something. And it just, you know, my husband tells me all the time, like, if I'm in the middle of writing a book, we'll just be like sitting at the dining room table and look like you were like dead staring off for two minutes. And I was like, Oh, I was dropping dialogue in my head. I thought I was being really chill about it. Guess not. Um, so I do try to be aware of that now. No promises on if I will be able to, you know, not fall into temptation with writing new stuff, but I'm going to do my best to not dive fully in until the school year starts. We will see if I make it. Hey, you could do whatever you want. I know. I can. I can. It's up to you. It is. Yeah. I can't remember who told me this, but they were like, the rules are made up. The rules are made up. I'm like, yeah, they are. They are. I have to remember them. They're all made up. So because you write in so many different genres, if you don't have a lightning strike that just hits you, how do you decide where you're gonna go next? If you want to stay in a genre, try something different, or not that you can't ever go back to the same genre, but I feel like that could get difficult when you have almost like too many objects in front of you. So I have a list of ideas of what I know I want to work on next. And one thing I did a couple years ago was I actually started to change my desktop background to almost be like a mood board or like a vision board of like here's the things that I want success-wise. But then I also have like a list off to the side of the big things happening this year. So it was like FOMO launch, which is fake out, make out is FOMO. And then like outline pitch this idea, outline pitch this idea of like the nickname I have in my head. So if there is a time where I'm like, okay, like what do I do? Like I have more than enough ideas that I could start to just pull at and play with. And I also have just enough administrative stuff to do with like keeping up with the backlist. Oh, right, I have to market my backlist because I have full-on ignored it for months to promote FOMO. So there's always something to do. I've also really enjoyed writing short stories, and I have a lot of short story ideas. So I I'm hoping, if anything, this summer, like that's something I can work on. One of my big goals a couple of years ago was to finally get some of my short stories published in literary magazines and journals. And I've now had two. So that's been really exciting. Yay, congratulations! Thank you. Thank you. And so that's something I'm building for my more upmarket cli-fi speculative fiction pen name, Mary Kate Williams. So uh yeah, there's I know not saying MK is so yes, it's like it's all me. Like I'm I am three people. Like it's all, it's all me. Okay, talking a little bit more about fake

Fake Out Make Out by Kate Williams

out makeout specifically. So can you tell me more about how like endurance sports are really a key aspect of this book and of the plot and why you decided to write it that way? So the initial idea came when I was working for a large endurance sports company that would put on really epic triathlons. Um, they acquired a major marathon company. So that was like just life. Like, so much of the like setting for fake out makeout, I would say was just inspired from that memory of like walking through the office hallways, and there's just like finish line photos and like the grueling, like, oh, I did it, like finish line, you know, like excitement and the wall of bibs and the metals and like all that kind of like endurance culture. Um, so that was where I had the idea of like this would be a great front for a Mission Impossible organization because like everybody here's really fit and can speak multiple languages because we have offices around the world and we have contacts with every major world city because that's where we go to shut down the roads and the waterways for these events. And oh my gosh, could we be doing this? So that was part of the seed of the idea. I did really want to keep that within the book, though, right? Because I could have decided to make any other type of company a spy organization, right? I liked the idea of specifically with sports romance and having it be an open door romance. I do find that the physicality that is in sport and the mindset, and then when there are those physical challenges of just like having a sports injury, having a chronic illness, where you are questioned, is my body gonna do what I need it to do? That plays into the decision to then have the open door romance where like it actually speaks to like the growth of that character versus just being like gratuitous on the page fun. So I did want to keep that in there with that athlete's mindset to understand Charlie's journey as well as Declan's. So that was another layer to it. I also just think like every other sport is getting their romance moment. So like the marathoners and the tray athletes need theirs too. And obviously, um, Harriet Ashford when she did the trouble with love and coaches for her Iron Man romance, like I was all about it. I was like, girl, like I cannot wait for this. Um it was it was really fun to to go back into that world a little bit for endurance sports. And you've done endurance sports for a little bit, right, as well. Yes. So I mainly do half marathons. I did do an Iron Man 70.3 relay. I did the run. So I do have an Iron Man finisher medal that I earned. Well, not just that. I picked up for free in the break room when there were leftovers, but I did earn that one. So I mainly do the half marathon. I just like the distance. Also, like I do have two autoimmune conditions, so I do have to watch how much I push myself because I know like there's that tipping point of like my body's fine, my body's fine, my body's mad. That was also part of like my own journey. But yes, I do, I am a runner. I do like to run. I did a half marathon in February and at like mile 11, I like stopped at the aid station to get water and I messaged my husband. I was like, mile 11, never let me do this again. And then when I finished, I was like, but this other race has a really pretty metal, and I think I want to do it. He was like, wait a minute, you just said just said not to. Yeah. No, oh, and I do love all the chronic illness rep in there. I thought that was great. Even just from I remember there's one point where Charlie was uh looking at a menu and she is gluten-free, and she's like, I have to check if they have corn tortillas or corn tacos. And I'm like, oh my gosh, it's it's insane how much just hyperfocus you have to have constantly on every little thing like that. Yes, because it all could like add up. I think that's the thing that a lot of people who don't have a chronic illness don't get like, yes, there are medicines, yes, there are doctors, but then there's like the every single choice you make during the day, especially when you're getting used to what your condition is, what the triggers are that you have to like go into like a flare for any kind of autoimmune, you question everything. And then it takes years to build up the habits where it doesn't seem like it's taking up so much brain space. So yeah, I'm very happy to incorporate that. And I think of the posts I've done, marketing, fake out, makeup, when I mentioned that there's chronic illness rep, autoimmune rep, that like I put my own autoimmune like experience in there, those get way more shares and comments because I think there's so many people out there who have that experience that they're they're hungry to see it represented in books. And I know there's a lot of other great books out there that have that. Molly uh McCarthy has In Your Eyes, where the main character has two autoimmune conditions. I read It's All in Your Head This Year by Sabina Norquist, and that has amazing chronic illness representation. So there's a lot of books out there with that too. And that's been so great to read and to know like we're all here together. I think that where Fake Out Make Up is really special is it really captures like Charlie's thought process all the time, not just like, oh, I need to add some chronic illness here and here and here. It is very realistic of it, does kind of inform a lot of the decisions she makes, especially nope, that I think that's a spoiler, especially if she were to do athletic activities and push herself in that way. Yeah, yeah, thank you. That was good, that was a good like, wait, yeah. I'm like, okay, don't want to say too much. So, what aspect of Charlie and Declan's relationship felt the most rewarding to be able to develop? I started with the concept for the idea, right? Like, okay, this cool company could be like a spy organization, but then I was like, well, what's the story there though? And so I just had in my mind of like, she trusts everybody except herself. He trusts nobody, especially her. And I was like, that is their dynamic from the beginning. So I think getting them to the point where she could trust herself and trust him, and he could trust her, that was rewarding to like build that in, move the chess pieces, right? Like you're slowly just inching them closer together. I think it was really rewarding to see how it worked out and how some things just came together. Like this was the first book that I did like a true like outline. Every single chapter, I had different different highlight colors of like pink is like the romance element, and green was the spy elements to make sure we didn't go too long without certain things making sure. But I think there were some things that just came together without me planning it. And I was like, hey, that worked out. So that was really rewarding just to see that it could all come together and be smooth and seamless. They learned to trust each other. And I love their anti-me cute, and you're sitting there going, How on earth are these two gonna eventually like each other? And like you said, they just get off on the wrong foot so much that to see the chess pieces move and see how they kind of turn the tide a little bit, you're like, okay, okay, okay. I can kinda I can see this start to work out now. Yeah, I think it was one of those things where I was like, even writing it, I was like, how are we gonna get past this? And I was and I kind of knew it was gonna come ahead. And I was like, well, there's gonna be like big moments where like they have to work together. So it's a it's a meat cringe. It's a I'm super sweaty holding sandwiches. Please let me in. Absolutely not. You're a security risk. Like, okay, what do you want me to do? So yeah, that was that was really fun to write from both of their perspectives. I feel like that's a really hard line with romance as far as not making the MMC come off as jerky or something that's gonna make the readers go, no, absolutely not. And then they can't switch over, but also making it to where it's understandable for the FMC to start out frustrated and mad at him. Yeah, or just that like that true, like it's not a miscommunication trope, but that like at the beginning, they're both so set in their mindsets that like you see why Declan can't can't make that leap to trust her, and that like he does eventually have to like trump trust himself, trust others around him, that like he really was very still um rattled from things that happened prior to the start of the book, but that like we allude to throughout to see like he's not a bad guy. He's actually a very good guy who's been burned and like getting him to like get back to his his trusting ways. So yeah, I love that. So, what is your favorite spy trope to write? Since normally you do kind of have like thriller elements and stuff. Was that fun getting to include that in the romance? It was. It was very fun to do the spy stuff. And I think for so long, like when I first had this idea, it was like 2017, 2018. And my initial thought as I because I had written Nail Biters, which was very dark science fiction, I had written Enemies of Peace, which was a thriller. I didn't yet have the idea for Infinite Infinite, but it was like I knew I wanted to be in the sci-fi space. So when I had this idea, I was like, well, I don't write spy, and most spy stories have a romance element. I don't write romance, so like I can't do that. It was like that limiting belief. So I was really happy that I got to the point as a writer to be like, no, like I want to challenge myself. Like I want to try something new, I want to try something fun and like understanding that like all the conventions that we see in romance of like the like how they meet has to be memorable. We need to see certain touch points, we need to have a happily ever after or a happy for now, like all those things, those exist within the spy stories too, right? Like they have very set tropes, they have very set, like these things need to happen in a certain order for it to really be considered a spy story. So that was really fun to research. Um, so I did read a even more spy books than I had previously. After I got the deal for fake out makeout, I rewatched the entire Mission Impossible series. So it was really fun to dive in. I will say the most fun thing to write, which is not in this book, it's called a trouble entendre, which is when they're kind of saying normal things to each other. So like an outside person would be like, Why are these two talking about verbs so much? But really, it's like some code names of like, oh, like this is gonna happen. And that's how they're communicating secretly in front of others. So it's not a double entendre, it's a trouble entendre. So those were fun to write into here. And I I'm hopeful that if we get really strong sales or fake out, make out, I can do that again in book two because I have an idea for what that's gonna be. Oh, yeah. So this may not be a standalone, it may be a book in a series. Okay. Correct. Yeah, so that was how we went out and pitched it, was that it could be the first in a series. I think it stands alone by itself. I think it could end here, but there's some more fun things we could do. So um, I'm really hopeful that we could extend this world a little bit. Well, we've talked about it a little bit, but how do you truly kind of balance that suspense with the romantic arc and keep them both kind of afloat the entire book? This took some finesse. So this was the first book I wrote having an agent signed on with. So when I wrote Heifer, I wrote all that, edit it, pitched it to an agent, got signed, yada yada, yada. So like they weren't there from the conception. So with this one, they were kind of like, hey, like let's work on this outline together. So that way when you send the book in, I'm not telling you you need to do all these rewrites before it goes on submission, right? Because I mentioned like this is gonna be a growth challenge for me. This is gonna be something new. So I wrote an outline for the first time ever. Like, usually I'm more of a discovery writer. I get the idea. I'm I'm working my way through. I'm about like 70k words in. And then I'm like, well, let me just do like a pencil outline to make sure things make sense and move things around. So having an outline really helped, knowing that there are certain touch points I needed to hit for the romance and for the spy element, color coding it really helped because I could see I'm like, well, we are really romance heavy and nothing has been moving the spy platform. We need to move things around. And I think realizing that so much of the romantic tension could be built in within kind of all of the spy stuff that was going on. Like, yeah, I didn't need to force it. I didn't need to give them an extra activity to do or thing to go do that was gonna make it romantic. It's like, oh, like they're kind of in these high stakes situations that already kind of elevates it a bit. So they did blend really well together, but I think again, like I'm a very visual person. So having the color-coded outline really helps me to be like, okay, or like there were a few times I'm like, this is all spy and there's no romance. Like, we need to have like a beat here of like emotion and like what is happening. Did you do your outline like on paper, write it down, or did you use like Scrivener or one of the other tools? I did in Google Docs. I just work better with like Word and Google, like Google Docs. Like I have access to some of those other tools, but I just I like those. Um, and that was easier to kind of make sure, like, hey, to my agent, like, are you good with this outline before I write this? Because again, we don't want to get to the point where I send her the whole manuscript and she's like, okay, there's like some big things that need to change um if we're gonna go out and try to sell this. So um having her input was great. And obviously with Google Docs, being able to collaborate and add notes. And so it was interesting. Some chapters, I would just have the bullet points, what's gonna happen, and then I'd have a huge comment of like, and here's all of these things that are also gonna happen, but I'm not gonna put it in the outline. But like, just so you know, here's some like dialogue I already have left out. It made it easier than when I switched it to my Word doc to write the whole thing of like this chapter, okay, all these things stay together. It does make it easier. I'm used to an outline. Why I have Team Pro. Yes. So okay, this may be a dumb question, but for someone who's not in traditional publishing, so do you have the same agent, even though you're doing like heifer's a different genre than fake out makeouts? Do you technically have like the same agent and then they're just pitching different publishing houses that match that genre? Yes. So when I signed for Heifer, I signed with Perez Literary Entertainment. Um so Christina Perez is the principal there, and I signed with her. Um, so she did a great job, really like worked with me to tighten up Heifer before it went out on submission. At the same time, her assistant, Isabel Lineberry, was training to become an agent. That's kind of more of like an apprenticeship for like how agents get trained and move up. So Isabel worked with me on Heifer as well. So when I pitched, I was like, hey, Heifer's out on submission. I need a project so I don't go bonkers. You know, I pitched some other darker books that were along the same flavor of Heifer. And then I threw out this idea for fake out makeout as like the third. I was like, I would be happy to write this. However, it's another new pen name, it's another new genre. And so they both said, okay, we love that idea. Isabel is actually going to try to build up a romance list as an agent. So why don't you work with her directly? So I've pretty much had two agents all along for the price of one, um, which has been great. Um, just to have both of their insights. Because then you know them, they know you, that is awesome. And like you said, they know your pin names, they understand each book and what it entails. They do. Yep. And they understand my backlist too. So, like, there's been times they've had conversations with like, hey, like, we're gonna go into a meeting. Like, can you just send me the first couple chapters of this book again just to see if we could do something with it? It's been really helpful just to have two people who and be in meetings with different people at the same time, kind of pushing that out. So it was really great that they were on board with the idea of doing something new with me. When I had the very first like the call with Christina, so for anybody who goes through traditional publishing and querying, ideally, an agent says, Send me the full. They love it so much they want to have a call with you to talk about it. And so on that call, Christina even said, like, where do you see like other genres? Like you write sci-fi, you're now writing Heifer, which was much more like dark, speculative, a bit more upmarket. Like, what else do you see? And I even mentioned romance on that call. Cause at that point, I was like, I think I need a break from the darkness. I think the other side of my brain needs to shine a little bit. So they both knew that that could be something I pivoted to at some point. So it was exciting to kind of dive in with them on this. So same agency, they have multiple lists, they have multiple contacts. So it's it's been really exciting and fun to work on this together and then talk about potential next books, which is like, do I dive back into the dark side? Do I stay on the light side? Wow. Um, I'm so glad that you found them and that they can champion you because that is fantastic that you have so many different genres, but I could see how it might be hard for agents if they don't truly know your work and haven't really like dived into it all. Yeah. And that they're they're a bit more of like um a smaller agency, and I think that's great. Like, obviously, there's all different agents out there, they all do their best, like a great job. But I I did worry that if I somehow got signed with like a really big agency, it was much more like, no, like I am your agent. You can't talk to this other agent, like a bit more like competitive between them, or just like they have so many clients. How is that gonna work? So um, I'm excited that Press Literary is growing and there's more, but I'm also just like, don't get too big. Don't forget about me. So they're so they're they're such a great team and they're they're so responsive. Um, so I'm really lucky to work with them and that they're on board with like trying new new fun things with me. So yay, I'm so happy for you. So, of course, listeners always request they love hearing about traditionally published authors' journeys and specifically with you. You have such an extensive background as a hybrid author, which I don't know that I've ever really had a truly hybrid author like you with such an extensive backlist on. So I'm very interested to hear kind of how your journey went to becoming hybrid and having both self-published and traditionally published books now. Yeah, so I mean, when I first wrote my very first novel ever, which will never see the light of day, it was so bad. It was so bad. I I went through the traditional process, right? Like this was back in back in the old days, 2011, 2012, of like trying to get an agent, just hearing nothing and really frustrated. And at that time, there really hadn't been like the Kindle revolution yet. Like self-publishing was still just like, no, like, you know, if you want to be a quote unquote real author, you don't touch that. Like you're not you're gonna be blacklisted, nobody's gonna want to work with you. So I thought I had to do that. Ah, si. I know, right? Like it was, I I've been through it. Like, I still like get the eye twitch sometimes. I'm like, y'all don't know what I've been through on this journey. I've been around. And so I did finally decide to self-publish. This is kind of like part of my origin story. I went to the library. There's gonna be a local author talk, and I was like, yes, I'm gonna make some author friends because I was a bad millennial. I didn't think to like go and find a Facebook group and like a writer's group. Like, that didn't occur to me. I was like, I'm gonna go to the library. There's an author event, and she writes a gymer genre than me, but like hopefully we can still be friends. And like I went up to talk to her afterwards. I said, Oh, like I'm a writer too. And she's like, You're what, 23? What could you possibly have to say? No. And I was just like, oh, dagger, right? Like, just like so mean and like putting me down. And like I was expecting rejection from like the publishing establishment. I was not expecting it from a fellow author. And so that like threw me for a loop. And so it was eventually at the time my boyfriend, who's not my husband, who noticed that I was like not writing as much, not doing all the things I had been doing to try to get published. And he was like, why don't you try self-publishing? And I was like, You don't understand. I was like, let me pull up all this research I've done to show you. And at this point, you know, Kindle Direct Publishing, KDP was available, all these things. And I looked and I was like, oh, he might not be wrong. Like this, I might be able to do this. And I think I've always been a very curious, hands-on learner. So I was like, okay, let me give it a try. Like, let me, let me see what I can do. Um, and so then the next book I wrote was Nail Biters, and I self-published that. So that's how I got started out with it. And I grew to really enjoy the process. I'm a very much like I have a creative side of my brain, and I have a very like project management process-oriented side of my brain. And I think self-publishing played to both, which I really enjoyed. And then after several books, getting more questions, that's why I started the YouTube channel. And it was really what I've noticed is that my audience is for like first-time self-publishing authors. When I've tried to do talking about multiple books later, kind of a bit more with the lingo and the jargon. They don't like that. Like they just want to know, like, this is my first book. What do I do? And like that's great because I didn't have that. I couldn't find that when I was getting started. People reached out to me, like, could you just help me self-publish the book? That's great. You're explaining it to me. Like, you just do it for me. So I built up so much of I'm self-publishing, I'm enjoying the challenge of it, I'm enjoying learning it. I truly thought there would never be a point that I would want to go traditional publishing. I was like, why would I give up any control? Why would I, you know, do any of those things? Like, especially once my brand was really becoming like, I'm gonna help people learn to self-publish. I was like, I don't think I can. And then I also realized, like, well, I can also do whatever I want. Like that there are no rules. There are no rules. It helps both. And a lot of your YouTube videos, you'll say, like, if you're traditionally published, you would do it this way. If you're self-published, you would do it this way. So you really give both perspectives. Yeah. And so I've been trying to do that more, knowing I'm on this journey. So I probably had I never had the idea for Heifer, I probably would have kept going on self-publishing and never thought of it differently. But you know, as I am writing a book, I'm I'm starting to think about how I'm gonna market it, how I'm gonna position it. And what I realized with Heifer was that like the market for that book finds their books through like the big traditional recommendations, right? Like not that they turn their nose up at self-published books, but they're just not in a place. They don't have time to dig deep into the Rex. Yeah. They're they're not on Bookstagram, like looking for the greatest indie find. Like those kind of readers are looking for somebody to be like, hey, this is the the book club picket of the month and things like that. And I was like, to get my book in front of those ideal readers, I need to be traditionally published, right? And so then I was like, all right. And so again, having in the back of my mind is not great experience querying back in Yee old days and things like that. I was like, all right, I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna try it, I'm gonna record it for my channel. So hopefully I don't crash and burn to put that process out there to kind of show it. So I knew again, if for whatever reason I didn't get signed, I would still get some videos out of it. So I kind of went into all of it with just a learner's mindset. It's been more positive in ways that I wasn't expecting. It's been challenging in other ways. I think also the timing of it coincided with, you know, my first idea for Heifer came in like the exhausted nights after having my daughter and just that newborn fog of delirium and no sleep. And so that's how you get a weird idea in like heifer. And so now, you know, she's actually gonna start kindergarten, like full-time school in the fall. So I think this transition from self-publishing, having to move really quickly to traditional publishing, moving slower, it was kind of at the time of my life where I didn't have as much time to be like pumping books out. So I think it all kind of worked out timing-wise. So it's exciting to see this transition. I don't think I'm at a point to say, like, I'm never gonna self-publish a book again. I probably will. I'm gonna have to at least keep doing updates to my backlist. Yeah. So it's it's been a journey. It's been a ride. I'm very excited about it. Well, I also wanted to just point out to any listeners that MK does have nonfiction books as well as her YouTube channel. And one of the things I I promise, I'm not trying to make this an ad, but I just have to shout it out. It's so hard to truly research and find all of your options. And a lot of the resources that are out there are very biased, of like, I did it this way. And so you think that that's just the only way to use it, whether it's a tool, a website, whatever. And so her videos and her book are really her books are the first things that have truly broken it down of these are all of your options. This is why you would pick this one, this is why you would pick another one. Like her YouTube videos, the titles are so well labeled that you can literally find a short video on any random thing that is making you want to throw your computer out the window. And you can find that easily, quickly, know all your options and find a solution where a lot of other author resources are just not that way. So you have completely crafted something so amazing in addition to your books and I love your writing style. So just shouting that out there that if you have not checked out MK's books, you're gonna love her writing style and her fiction books, but then her YouTube channel and her nonfiction are really so incredibly helpful, whether you're self-published, traditionally published, whatever stage you're at, like some things just pop up and they're new and you don't have time to read a huge, massive book about, you know, whatever insert random publishing thing is happening now here. And she has a video on it that you can easily digest and figure out, and she always answers comments if you have questions. So just throwing that out there. Very long-winded way to say you're awesome. Yeah. I might just cut that and put that on my channel. Testimonium. Yes, that was that was the idea of like selfishly, the idea behind the format for the YouTube channel was I'm getting the same questions a lot from people. I want to be able to answer people and make them feel like they're getting my time and attention, right? I didn't want people to feel like I did when I went up to that first author and was just like totally shut down. But I was like, I don't have time to like custom write all these emails. And like even if I just had like pre-written ones, like I was spending time to like customize it and make it feel nice. I was like, I bet if I did YouTube videos, I would save time. Yes. And then I could get back to writing. And that's like literally the whole thesis of my channel. It's like, I just want to get back to writing my fiction books. So I'm hoping that I can answer every possible question. We don't be over here writing. So that that was the thesis for it. And the books came about because I kept seeing the same questions on YouTube videos. And I was like, there's gotta be a way that I can answer these questions for people where they could just get them all at once. And I was like, Oh, I could write a book. Like I wish I could say it was some like strategic business decision, or like, oh, I've always thought about writing nonfiction. No, it was like, oh, how can I answer all the questions in one place? Of course, one more thing to write. Right. So um the books have been updated recently. I did I pushed updates last year. Um, so they've all been revised as of 2025, which is they're already out of date because of all the updates that are happening in the world of self-publishing. But um, I do try to keep them up to date. And yes, the videos are more up to date. So always look at the published date on the video. But yes, I appreciate everything you do for the author community. So thank you. Thank you. But also talking a little bit more um about your background and moving kind of more towards traditional publishing, you're still marketing a lot. So it's not as if you're not writing and marketing and constantly talking to agents and trying to keep your numbers up and all the many things that you have to worry about just on a totally different scale than a self-published author. So I feel like it's almost not less work, it's just different work. It is, it is different work, and I think with this also being a different genre. So I think there's a few things. I never truly like found my people when I was trying to self-publish and like market my science fiction books. It just took me a while to find them. And like I found some of them now, and I'm like, yes, like I really found a little sci-fi club, like let's be buddies. But I think with romance, there's just different reader expectations, there's a different volume of books that are coming out. There are different ways to market that are kind of accepted in the romance genre that like I don't think I would do to market like the vampires or the time travel or things like that. Everything's been new. And so I was even talking with my husband last night about like the different experience and the different marketing. And I was like, I think I'm a better marketer now than I was at book one, book two, book three. But I also think the type of marketing required and the type of marketing that I can do now is totally different than what I would have done in 2015 for nail biters. Like Bookstagram wasn't as much of a thing then, and like the different ways of like just positioning, like here's what's gonna happen with like tropes or like different things to look out for, like that wouldn't have worked for like a dark sci-fi back in that time. So it's it's constantly evolving. There, there it there is no break. Even if you just want to write as an author, like your one perfect book and that's it, it's like, well, the way you market it at launch is gonna be totally different than two years later because ever everything keeps evolving. So yeah, I'm I'm constantly learning a lot and having to unlearn old ways that I'm like, that doesn't work anymore. So that's the hardest thing of knowing when to switch. And speaking of that, what are your feelings on when you want to decide to switch platforms? So, of course, many authors are considering switching or have already moved from KU to Cobalt Plus Unlimited. How do you determine when it's time to switch up your strategy without just like jumping ship when something is, you know, trendy or happening or popular and you want to get on the ground floor? Yeah, so I make a lot of decisions based on a couple things. So I will look at the financial impact. So like I had Enemies of Peace in Kindle Unlimited for a year. And I noticed always at like day like 80 of that 90-day contract, so many page reads. And then it would drop back down. And so I'd be like, well, I may should keep doing it. But like at that time when that book came out, like a domestic suspense financial thriller was not what people were looking for in KU. That may be totally different now, but I was like, all my other books are out wide. It feels weird just to say this one is only available on Amazon. I was like, I think I want this wide. Like for me, it was also the ease of like anywhere you find books, anywhere, oh, except for this one, like that felt unnatural. So yeah, I would look at the financial, I would look at the time level of effort of like, hey, if taking something from being exclusive on one platform, it's much easier to go exclusive to being wide, right? You just click a button, wait for the time to be over, put it out everywhere. It's much more difficult to go from being wide to being exclusive. So that would certainly be another factor of like, hey, how quickly do I need to move this ship? And if I need to be able to move it quickly, going wide makes it more difficult. What do I value more? Like more page reads and money coming from that. But then I'm kind of beholden to this one platform versus I want my books available at libraries. That was kind of like a guiding cornerstone for me. It was like, if my book can't be at a library, then how would I be bit of power of it? Right. Like I love reading at libraries. I will buy books, of course. But like sometimes I will get a book at the library, love it so much, and then buy a copy of it. Yeah. So um, that was something that was also important to me. So I make my decisions based on multiple things. It's usually never just one thing, it's never just the money or just the time savings. I do look at multiple things. So I would say if you're an author and you're in KU and I know there's been a lot of hullabaloo about are the reports showing correctly, or now there's just this influx of like AI slop. So everybody's pennies are getting smaller on the page reads. Moving over to Kobo, it's like, well, do they have similar policies? Are they allowing similar things? What's the benefit you're gonna get? Like if you sign up for like their sales days, you still have to market that the book is in the sale. You still have to market that it's in that promotion, just like you would anywhere else. So um, there's no platform out there that's gonna do the work for you. It's just deciding which set of rules you can live with. And so for an author who's made the decision to change, if it works for you, awesome. If there's an author who switched and is like, biggest mistake my life, I'm going back. I'm like, I trust that you're making the right decision for your book and your audience. It really is like a choose your own adventure with self-publishing. And that's exciting and it's also terrifying because like I have to choose. I mean, I do, I don't know, somebody else tell me. So I think I do always caution people to be strategic, like to never make a knee-jerk decision. There's also been pricing changes now with ACX and for audiobooks and with draft to digital. And my mantra to everybody is like, don't react the second you read that email. Take some time, look at the numbers, make a rational business decision. Because if this is your business, like if you were the CEO and you were just constantly making big shifts, your employees would be like, What is going on? Like, why can't we stick with the strategy? And so even if it's just you're your only employee, like, take some time, take a week, breathe, or like set something on your calendar for like once a year. I'm gonna review my strategy. Does this work for me? So that way it doesn't feel like a panic decision. So yeah, that's always my wisdom advice. That is really great advice. And I think especially calling out how you said that with Kobo to make sure that they're not doing the same things that Amazon have. So then it's not gonna just turn into the same thing that you're already experiencing in Kindle Limited, and you took all that time and effort to scoot everything over, which it is the biggest pain in the butt ever to actually truly move those things over like that. Yeah. Yeah. And especially especially once you've developed a backlist. Like for me, I have 12, I have 12 books on all my platforms. 13. I have 13 books. I don't know if wow, I have too many books. For me to move something to a new platform, I'm like, there's gotta be a big reason to do it. There has to be a really big incentive for me to do that because I got a big, bulky ship, right? It is hard to maneuver this thing. So I think as you get more of a backlist, it becomes harder to make moves. I think the authors with one or two titles, you are a bit more nimble for that reason. Don't be like me, kids. But they say it's all in the backlist. So, you know, it is it is great. It is in the backlist, it absolutely is. So, like I yeah, it's a it's a blessing and a curse sometimes. Have you found um that you've enjoyed doing in-person events lately, or a lot of it is a lot of it your online marketing, or you like kind of doing both? I have done two in-person events this year. I did one in-person event last year, and I've been really enjoying them. Like getting to talk to people about my books. It was also a great way to like adjust and get immediate feedback on like my hook for a book to be like, okay, like everybody really is liking this one. Usually people like this one. So maybe I need to say something different to catch their attention for this book. That's usually my bestseller and things like that. So great instant market feedback, just great like connecting with readers and talking. Don't love schlopping things in the Florida heat back and forth, but it's been fun, it's been exciting. I'm excited to do more things in the future. Yeah. So I I want to be able to do more in person events. The downside is we're getting into like the hottest, most ungodly heat season in Florida, and people are still doing outside events. And I'm like, excuse you. No, I will see you in November or I will see you inside. Um, so like the two events that I've all three events that I've done, um, I did an author signing at a Barnes Noble in Sarascan. Last December, that was inside. It was also chilly, which is fine. I did a craft show in March, and that was inside. And I did an event at the Oxford Exchange in Tampa, which was inside. So that was all very helpful. Um, I think also looking at the timing for events, like I do have a daughter who, like, if I'm at an all-day event, that means her dad is with her all day, and then like he's exhausted and she's exhausted, and I'm exhausted. And I'm like, I I need a helper at some of these events. So, like, if he's helping me at the event, who's with our kids? Because I I don't know if she's ready yet to come to the events and not do what toddlers do. It's hard. That's hard for that many hours. Yes, yeah. Or like, you know, she gets bored, she gets antsy, she gets fussy. Um, all the things. So hopefully, as she gets older, it gets easier to be like, okay, you can tag along and you can actually help. So it'd be amazing. So I'm excited to do more in-person events and meet people. I think I also realized I need more stickers. And I don't know if that's just gonna be a new obsession for me or if it'll actually help move more books, but I I think I need more stickers. Where do you get your stickers printed? Um, I've been using sticker mule. Oh, nice. But if anybody has better recommendations, of course, send them my way. Sticky brand tends to have a lot of sales, like really good sales. Yeah. And they'll just randomly like switch up which size of sticker gets a sale so you can just hop on it right as soon as you see it. And I liked the quality. I thought it was good. We'll get to that. That makes it easier for me to order lots of stickers. A recommendation from shocking an author print. I mean, we all just help each other out, right? Like that's where my first few years of self-publishing, I really just felt alone on an island and it was miserable. And like realizing, like, oh, like I need author friends. That's right. Like that that's been like just a huge game changer to like actually just connect with other people and to nerd out about books and yes, like help each other out. But like I think it's also just the nerdy excitement of like, ah, this look. I agree. Even just like chatting with readers at Imperson Events um about books, and I've gotten some really good recommendations from that. I'm like, okay, or like I keep hearing about a book and they're like, oh, I just finished it, and so they can tell me about it. Yeah, it's it's amazing. And I feel like there's just such great camaraderie among readers. Like, I was even at my husband and I just went to my husband and I just went to like a books a million last weekend just to like walk around. And I was like, Oh, like I want to see where my book will be when Fake Out Make Out releases in the US. And we were walking by, and these two women were talking about if they should get 112263 by Stephen King. And I just thought I was like, You're gonna love it. It's worth the payoff. Like, like just going on, like hand selling this book to them as I'm walking by. And my husband's like, Okay, like I was like, no, like it's a bookish thing. Like, I had to tell them you have to help you. Okay, I'm so jealous that you have a BAM near you. I think the closest one to me is like an hour and a half away. I don't know why they don't have that many in Texas. I mean, it's relatively close. It's like close to my in-laws, and we were at my in-laws, so that is perfect. Yes, I have I have hand sold a book of tired. Just be like, Do you work here? No. You can't help it. No, absolutely not. Well, when they're standing right there and you hear them talking about it, and you're like, I know, I know that you're gonna love this. I need you to know that you're gonna love this. Trust me, I have no vested interest in this. I just think we should read it. Yeah. There was one time, I think it was in an indie bookstore, and um one girl, we were in line, we're in the signing line waiting because an author would come in. But of course, they're this particular bookstore has just a massive amount of self-published, traditionally published, like it's a romance-only bookstore. So they have a massive variety of books you were just never going to be able to see all in person at the same time. So it's kind of overwhelming because the shelves literally go like up to the ceiling. Yeah. So we're standing in the signing line, and she was asking for book recs, and we were talking about our favorite books. And I mentioned, of course, You with the View by Jessica Joyce, because that's one of my favorites. And literally, not five minutes later when we got done, I was looking for, you know, just like searching the shelves, and I see that book on the shelves, and it was the last one. And I'm like, you know what? She seemed receptive. Let me take it and walk over and grab it and hand it to her. And I did, and she bought it and she put it in her cart. So, you know, so because she was like trying to write it down, but you know, when someone throws titles at you, sometimes you remember it, you don't. And it was just sitting right there waiting. Like, why not? So it does work. Yeah, yeah. That's that's what you gotta do. We have to look out for each other as readers. So yeah, that's perfect. And then readers that love fake out makeout can go up to their friends and be like, um, hello, do you see this book? Like you you need this book right now, and then there you go. This cover, can I tell you? It is so good, it's so good, and like there's a spot, UV. So when it comes to the US, like just get ready for it. There's like a spot shine on the characters. And that's oh my gosh, it's so and it's on the side. Like, I never would have been able to do that or afford that self-publishing it. Like, no, like that's good, it's so pretty. And then the little race bib. Oh, that's cute. The chat, like, it's so cute, it's so cute. I love it. Um, it's so pretty. Like, she's a pretty girl, yeah. Like, and she knows it. I love how her hair is like flowing in the wind a little bit. Yes. Um, or like I think that's where with the launch, we're recording this before the book launches. Future people listening. Like it's gonna be out in the UK in paperback and audio and ebook this Thursday, June 4th. But like in the US and Canada, we have to wait till like March 2nd of 2027 for it to be in paperback. And I'm like, I know a lot of people read romance and ebook and audio, but like I really like I want to walk in and see it. So I'm March 2nd next year, I'm I'm gonna be doing Zoomies at all the local bookstores. So excited. So for readers that are in the US, can they pre-order from the UK and it'll just be maybe like more of a shipping fee, but it would still come to them or I don't know. I I wonder if you could. Because I hear about people doing it, but I don't know how they do it. I don't, I'm assuming that yes, if you want to give Amazon the ex extra money or like Waterstones or Bookshop.org the extra money to ship internationally, they might, but like I don't, I don't know. You could try it and let me know how it goes. Yeah, I was gonna say, I feel like that's definitely like a trial and error thing. Because I hear a lot of times about people saying, like, I bought the UK cover, but they didn't go to the UK, they somehow got it shipped to them. They disordered it over it, yeah. So there's gotta be a way. Yeah, I think it's gonna be the same cover when it comes out in the US. I don't think you can't outdo this. Like, no, it's not pretty. I think I don't, I don't know. At the time that we're speaking, I do not know. Um, but I assume it's gonna be the same and it's gonna be beautiful, and I can't wait. And yeah, I have like my author copies, so I'm probably gonna do a few like paperback giveaways because like I have the only print copies on the continent right now, and I feel really exclusive and really fancy. But they're so pretty. I don't want to let them go. That's huge. That is so cool. Yay. Is there anything else that you would like readers to know? I want readers to know that you're awesome and you rock. You're the reason why authors do what we do is we want to help you feel happy or feel the things that you need to feel in our stories. Um, you're amazing. If you want to find out what's going on with my multiple pen names, because there's always stuff going on. I have an Instagram, I have a YouTube channel at symbol1, MK Williams, everywhere, because there's only one of me, but I've got three pen names. But the truly the best place is my newsletter. I only send it once a month. So that's gonna be everything you need to know for that month, what I'm working on, what's coming out. I used to work in email marketing. So like it hurts my brain to think about it, but I know it's important to connect with people. So I do send it once a month. I will not spam you. I will not send multiple emails a month unless something bonkers, crazy good deal is happening. And then I respond when people comment back on my newsletters. I will respond to you and like same thing on my YouTube. So like chat with me. It's fun. Sign up for my newsletter and check out Fake Out Makeout everywhere you find great books. I hope you love it. Yay. Well, that's it for today. Thanks for listening to Where I Left Off, a bookish podcast. So you can visit Kate's site, add her book on Goodreads, follow her on social media, and purchase her novels anywhere books are sold. Fake Out Makeout is available June 4th on eBook, Audiobook, and paperback for UK listeners. And for US and Canadian listeners, you can purchase the ebook and audiobook June 4th, and the paperback will be available March 2027. Yes. Thank you.