Navigating Film Festivals

While simply making a film is a passion project and can take years of work, getting your finished movie into a film festival can be nothing short of a miracle. In this episode, host Sandra Abrams takes a deep dive into film festivals and how to navigate the festival circuit for maximum exposure and a possible ticket to Hollywood. She  speaks with Heather Waters, who is the founder and producer of the Richmond International Film Festival (RIFF) and runs the RIFF Arts Institute. In 2022, RIFF runs from June 7 to June 12. She then chats with Jon Gann, considered the guru of film festivals, who runs DC-based festival business, Reel Plan, and is the author of two books on the topic.

For tickets or to volunteer at the Richmond International Film Festival go to www.rvafilmfestival.com and for more information about Heather, visit: https://www.riffartsinstitute.org

You can learn more about Jon Gann's company at www.reelplan.com and his 2021 film, Miss Alma Thomas: A Life in Color here: www.missalmathomas.com.
His books, "Behind the Screens: Programmers Reveal How Film Festivals Really Work" and "So You Want to Start a Film Festival: Conversations with Top Festival Creators" are available on Amazon.

Transcript

 Welcome to media and monuments. I'm your host, Sandra Abrams. Well, just making a film as a passion project in years of work, getting your movie into a film festival can be nothing short of a. Film festivals, offer directors, screenwriters, and producers, and opportunity to showcase their work, get noticed by distributors and film critics and expand their network.

In some cases, festivals have become a ticket to Hollywood, especially for independent media makers. For this deep dive. We'll talk to John GaN. Who's considered a guru of all things to do with film festivals and Heather. The founder and producer of the Richmond international film festival or riff Heather Waters is a media maker who wears many hats.

She's the founder and producer of the Richmond international film festival known as R I F F or riff one of the largest competitive film festivals in the mid Atlantic region. She's also the director of the riff arts Institute known as R a. is a nonprofit organization that seeks to foster development and promotion of artists, filmmakers, musicians, and writers.

Heather is the past president of the Virginia production Alliance, and she's also the co-owner of the creative world awards. Plus Heather is also in her spare time, a writer, director, and producer immediate projects. Welcome Heather. 

Thank you, Sandra. Thank you for that lovely introduction.

I wanted to ask you, you grew up in Richmond and you moved to LA then to Atlanta. What was it about Richmond that you said, yes, this is home and I'm going to start up film festival. 

A crazy idea. Right? I look at. I look back on it now. And, and really I had no intention whatsoever and starting a film festival, but I have grown up in the entertainment industry since I was a young girl actually, and started out for many years on the performance side and did the whole route grew up in Nashville, um, music film, the whole works and did Atlanta a couple of times in between went to Los Angeles and.

 I had moved to Atlanta, was thinking about relocating back to California and happened to be introduced to Richmond, Virginia by, um, a guy I was dating, um, which he loves to claim credit for this. But. He was wonderful. I came here and really saw so many incredible things happening in the city and really across the state of Virginia, um, we would go to festivals and lectures and I would have conversations with a lot of creatives.

And a lot of those events that I would attend and being a promoter of other artists when I'm not creating myself, those conversations would, tend to go, like, what are you doing with your music? Or what are you doing with your film? This is incredible. Are you on the festival circuit or, and so on and so forth.

And oftentimes the answer to that question was almost like seeing deer in headlights, like. I don't know, we're not, what do we do next? And so I was really inspired by the creativity that I saw and also at the same time, a need, um, for film filmmakers, uh, across the state to have more platforms that would really help them know what the next steps are.

Once you've created your project or written that script, what do you do next? And at the time, while we had some incredible festivals in Richmond, we didn't necessarily have one that was a competitive festival submission based. and those are really meant to be career launchers, you know, for, for the filmmakers and writers and stuff.

I said, okay, well, let's, let's get this started. And I moved here and I think started the festival three weeks later. So it was very quick,  saw that need turned around, created it. And now here we are. 11 years later.

Well, I did read you started the festival in 2011. Now, one of the things I found interesting was that you have the word international was that some type of fortuitous thinking here on doing it, like lot of people would have just said the Richmond film. 

 it was very intentional, you know, when I first moved to town, I had all these incredible creative things about the city, but one thing that I came across as it seemed to be a little closed off and,  I felt the need to bring something international, to really expose Richmond and the Commonwealth, you know, to different cultures and communities and artists from around the globe.

At the same time, I saw it as a way to show off our beautiful state, increased tourism, build our brick and mortar companies. the production community. Talented crew,  that's across the state. Also give them more opportunities and so expanding and broadening casting that net wide was very intensive.

Well, speaking of casting that net wide,  how do you determine the films that are going to go into your festival? Is it all right this year? The theme is this, or this year we have this panel speaking or, you know, these group of readers. And they're saying we're seeing a lot of this happening. 

What goes into determining those facts? 

You know, all festivals, I think do that a little differently. One of the things that I knew I really wanted to do it riff,  right out of the gate. To make it a very fair process and to not play politics or favorites as far as who gets in and who doesn't. So at rip everything is submission based.

We use, um, film freeway back in the day, it was without a box and now it's film freeway. So all of the films, or at least 99% of them occasionally will curate and do like a studio or a pre-release that kind of thing. But everything else is submission based. They go through judging on a set criteria that we have based on our own internal scorecard and,  the preliminary judges, uh, do the first rounds of judging.

And so it could be a brand new filmmaker going side by side. You know, uh, a more seasoned, uh, award-winning filmmaker, but everybody gets equal playing field when it comes to riff and. That's how we start the process. Sometimes in the end, it can be a little heavier weighted towards some of the more experienced filmmakers.

I mean, we've got golden globe award winners, Oscar award winners, and then we have first-time filmmakers and then everything in between. So what we'll do at the end once the preliminary judging has finished is I'll kind of come into the mix and go through and also look for. but other than that, everything has a judging process that we stick to. So they're, they're judged on, on merit, you know, and that includes, you know, production, quality, acting, the writing, and many other things that,  go into making a great film. at the end is when we determine what our theme is going to be.

So we'd like to do that as a very organic process at riff and oftentimes, um, it's me kind of leading that particular component. Cause I'll look and see. If there's a particular thread or a theme already running through the program. Sometimes I find even at creative world awards in our, with our writers, you'll find kind of a common universal theme that people are touching on in the material.

And then we look to go, okay, how's that? To Richmond, how's it relevant to Virginia? How's it relevant to what's going on in the world right now? And from there we select a theme that doesn't necessarily represent all of the films and it definitely doesn't what it, the theme really does is celebrate the heart of the creativity and the spirit running through the festival, through the projects at that time.

And then we'll pick out a few events during festival week, um, that highlight that thing.

One of the things I read was last year, you had about 160 films from countries around the world, but you also had the festival in September of last year. And now here it is June. You're going to be doing that sounds like an awful quick turnaround.  how do You do that? 

You know, I'm asking myself that same question, Sandra. Um, you know, we have been really impacted by the pandemic and so our normal.  festival dates are the last week in April. And because of the pandemic, the last couple of years, like many other festivals around the world, we kept having to postpone the festival.

And so then we ended up going both of those years, the last two years to September in order to be able to do the festival. And then. Last year, we had to plan two festivals at once. So while we were doing the 10th year anniversary planning for that last September, we were already open for submissions for this years.

And it's because we had a shorter time period. Usually the festival itself takes a full year of planning, but we're operating on like nine, 10 months. So it's been, it's been really. Intent we'll say, but,  but normally it is in late April. And so this is, you know, one more year and in 2023, we should be back to our late April dates and back on scale.

One of the things that you have as part of your festival is a screenwriter's competition and the creative world awards. And I wanted to know if you could expand on that a little bit, because most people are submitting films. This is just focused on screen, right?  how did you start this award and, and how this came about? 

I'm so passionate, about riders. I mean, as we all know, every great film begins with, you know, a compelling story. And so you can't really get a film off the ground without it. And over the years and working in the industry, I really came to.  just love working with writers and so creative world awards, which is my other company.

 that's going on 16 years old.  we develop writers  in that company. And so it's an international competition and then we. Oftentimes work with them beyond the competition to give them development notes, to get their scripts exactly where they need to be in order  to pitch them to executives  or producers.

And it's tough being over. There's not a lot of platforms that exist,  that allow filmmakers,  to be in the same room with the writers and writers to be in the same room with the filmmakers. And so when I'm thinking about the festival, I'm thinking about how can we. Make this full circle and create a win for all of these creatives.

So it's almost essentially like one-stop shopping.  the same goes for the music, addition that we added a few years ago to the film festival side.  every grade,  film or filmmakers looking for that perfect title song or,  pieces of songs that can make, certain scenes come to life.

And, and yet there's not a lot of platforms for musicians to connect with filmmakers. So it's the same, intent behind,  helping create platforms to bring these,  groups of creatives together to hold. Forge new working relationship.

Well, it sounds like you, you're not only just put it all together, but you're also saying, and here's a writer I can introduce you to, and here's a music person. I can introduce you to. 

Absolutely to me, that's the most fun part about what I do. One is, is, you know, of course entertaining people, you know, in front of the silver screen, the other is to create meaningful conversations. A lot of these. Films just are on topics that,  create that chatter, you know, in the audience.

And people are often talking about them through the evening, after they've seen the film and it's the same way with our writers and, and the musicians. We want to be able to bring them, um, into the mix and create those platforms to help them, build on their relationships and hopefully ones that lead to.

I know it sounds great. Sounds like a lot of fun, but it's also a lot of work. Tell me, how do you go about getting the sponsors for your film Fest? 

in the early days it was extremely tough  and rightfully so, you know, you have two. as a festivals, sort of earn your stripes and, and gain the respect of companies and local organizations that  are able to align with your, your vision and believe in what you're trying to do.

 so it was tough in the early years. We are fortunate and blessed now where we have those relationships established from people that have been with us since the beginning. And, each year they've graciously upped,  in many cases, their sponsorship amount, which we are very much dependent upon in order to be able to operate year round.

 but it's an ongoing challenge too, because. There are so many expenses that go into a festival and it really is a labor of love. In many regards. It's not a big money maker, you know?  it's about creating  and building on those,  relationships with your sponsors. And we just continue to try and find new sponsors every year that can join,  and supporting us and what we're doing, you know, at riff and.

 meanwhile,  the ones that we have had on board, we love to continue to build on those relationships, but it's definitely a very important part of making a film festival, run year round.

So, what about this year?  how many films do you have in there?  how many musicians are you showcasing this year? and what's going on as they are going to be,  an award being given out the creative, world award being given out for the screenwriter. Is that what also is happening during the. 

Well, the screenwriting competition at riff is actually separate from creative world awards.  you'll find some writers from CWA definitely,  get involved in and riff too, because it's wonderful to have that physical event,  sort of is the pinnacle. The end of the week, every year at the red carpet awards at the bird theater is when we do the grand jury awards.

 that takes place on the Sunday evening to close out festival week. And we. Give a ton of awards at, at riff. some are standard awards, like best of, in their category, whether that's narrative feature,  a doc feature, the narrative short doc shorts, experimentals, and so forth.  and then we, for the writers, we do, you know, different genre awards, and then the overall.

Grand jury award winner of the year. And,  and then additionally, we, we do individual merit awards. So those are on the writing, the genre side on film it's things like best directing,  best score, best original screenplay, best actor, actress. And so.  the last thing that we do, and I think  it's one thing that has always,  drawn a lot of wonderful documentaries for the most part to riff is we have outstanding merit awards for particular projects that are.

Going above and beyond to create impact globally or within a certain field, whether it be human trafficking or lots of different topics that, that kind of stand out to us from year to year that are also honored, at the red carpet awards that close out,  festival week.

Okay. All right. You keep talking about red cards. So I want to hear, do you have the big guests coming to the red carpet? You know, what's everybody, what designer clothes are people wearing? Tell us about this 

Yes. Yes. So it's funny. I just got a call this morning from somebody who is planning all of their outfits and literally calling me, from a boutique asking me that very thing. It's a big deal. we do several red carpeted events during the week. Opening night,  is a red carpet. Event on Tuesday, June 7th and then closing night, is always the red carpet, which goes right into the red carpet awards of the year.

 and then we have,  a handful of other scattered in, um, in the middle of the week. But, you know, with those, those events, we love for people to get dressed up. It's usually.  upscale chic, you know, uh, casual, we'll say up to black tie. And, um, we have several special guests that are coming in this year.

They're still actually being added day by day, but for opening night and closing night, we've, we've got some, um, special guests coming in. From the UK and, uh, Los Angeles that are around the film song for hope, which is a beautiful actually music documentary, which is new for us this year to lead out with that.

But we're going to have a special music performance open,  the film premiere. So that'll be a, a very special night closing night. We also have the same, special guests coming in from as far as.  way as Australia DoDEA tasks, who's a brilliant Australian director. We'll also be here for oh, leg. few other people.

I can't mention just yet, because they're not a hundred percent confirmed and I don't want to get in trouble. like just some of them are celebrity. 

Are we going to tell where we're just know, that the media and monuments podcast come on. 

I, I would love to get them, get their names out there in the press because it, people will really get excited. But of course, we're, you know, I have to wait for the PR their publicist to give us the sign off, but some really exciting names, both on the film director side and actors. and then,  Musician side, we've got some bands, one bands coming in from Belgium, a blues player, uh, the blues messenger, which is really cool.

Another one family. Who's a hip hop artist coming in from Germany. Um, and of course others from all over the country, that'll be visiting bands. On the filmmaker side, we have 171 films this year, which is the biggest ever,  festival today. And believe it or not, we have another 30 on a wait list that we were really dying to get in, but we just don't have room.

So it's going to be a real. Packed year,  at both bow tie cinemas and the bird theater, and then around town, we have 10 other venues going on from morning, till night, all over the city.

So tell us about the size of your team. It, because it sounds like it takes a lot of people to put on a film festival. And if you have over 171 films and you've got all these different venues going on around, around Richmond, what's the 

Our staff is very small and consists of myself and an assistant and one other part-timer, which is crazy.  I don't usually like telling people that because they really think that we're crazy. so that's year round doing, carrying a lot of the heavy lifting, and we've kind of gotten it down to a science where we know the drill now and what needs to happen when.

 each sort of leg, monthly throughout the year. And as we get closer to the festival, we then bring on our core team. And,  our core team is instrumental and helping us do things like outreach, working with local organizations to spread the word and create awareness around the films and the bands.

 of course, all of our local partners jump in with us to help cross promote and get the word out. And then,  some of the volunteers come in the month before and will assist and things like,  D a week of logistics. So we'll train them from year to year. A lot of people repeat, they come back year after year on the volunteer team  it's gotten to be a,  a large festival. So we are always in need of great volunteers. And it's actually a, it's a wonderful opportunity. A lot of the volunteers end up getting some work out of it  and it's fun for them because,  they. Meet new people and develop relationships.

And we love that. Um, but we're always in need of great volunteers because at this point we are still heavily dependent upon that. Not so much in the core part of the planning year round and what we execute on that end, but certainly as we get closer to our festival dates,  so we would love.  if anybody out there listening is interested in volunteering, please do reach out to us.

We would love to chat with you.

I wanted to ask you.

about, is there any special moments? So you've been doing this probably for almost a dozen years. Now, do you have any particular outstanding, special moments that you want to share? Whether it was about a film.  a special guests that you had 

Well, oh gosh, there are so many lovely ones. I think there's a couple that come to mind right away.  one was the governors. one year we had governor Terry McAuliffe, who was our pioneer award recipient for all of the amazing work that he has done through the years,  with the military and kind of helping them,  they went at sort of combat.

 homelessness and the state of Virginia and McAuliffe was,  doing a lot of cool initiatives to help with that. And a part of that included,  folks that who had come out of the military helping expose them to film. Cause oftentimes they're looking to pick up a new career and they don't have experience in film.

So he got the pioneer award,  one year and governor Northam,  was the one. Who gave McCullough governor McAuliffe, the,  pioneer award at the red carpets at the festival that year. That was special. Really, really cool.  the other thing that comes to mind is Danny Glover. You know, he was our legacy award recipient.

 Three or four years ago and what a lovely human being he was,  it was just a treat. We had a film of his buck out road that was in the festival  you never know how, you know, the stars are going to be when they actually get to the festival on site in. And he was just not only,  one of the most articulate.

 human beings I've ever met and kind, cause he does a lot of humanitarian work, but just a joy to be around.  so that was special. I'm actually looking at a picture, right, right here that one of my staff snapped of me and Danny Glover. So I think of him often as I see this picture, but there are so many moments like that throughout the last 10 or 11 years, that really.

Come to mind often,  a lot of our panels that we do and creating awareness around some of the topics that are in our films are particularly impactful. And in some cases have led to policy changes, or at least been a part of that process on. Things, across the state that, and even country us that need to be looked at closer.

but those are just a few examples of some of the ones that come to mind right away.

So from,  an idea to three weeks later to now you're showing films that have policy impact. That's quite a journey. 

Yes, it feels, I think if he would have told me, Hey, Heather, go out and do this from day one. I'm a might have gotten a little overwhelmed and said, I don't know who you're talking to. That won't be me, but it really has felt like such an organic. Process and with each expansion  that we've done from year to year and a lot of those different areas, it just seemed like the natural next step and fit.

And oftentimes I felt the need, I'm always looking at that and that, that part of it for me, feels like. It's where my passion and purpose lies. And it really is probably the thing that keeps me going year to year, because,  as John,  in many other festival directors will tell you it is truly

Quite a feat to put them on. And so when you're passionate about those things and you see the payoff and see how it's impacting, not just your local artists community, but also other businesses, your local brick and mortar. Sometimes policy changes. It will, it, it sends goosebumps,  up and down your spine.

It's really inspiring. And I feel grateful,  to be able to do what I do and at the festival from year to year,

Heather you're inspiring all of that. So I Thank you Heather, for sharing your insights and in to starting and running this film festival,  the Richmond international film festival starts June 7th to learn more, to get tickets or even volunteer, go to www R V. Film festival.com.

Thank you so much, Sandra.

John GaN is a native Washingtonian and runs real plan, a DC-based film festival business. He's also the founder of DC shorts, a nonprofit organization that seeks to promote short filmmaking and the creator of DC shorts film festival. John is the director of several award-winning films, including the 2021 documentary Ms.

Alma Thomas a life. She became the first African-American woman to have a solo show at new York's Whitney museum of American art. He's also the author of the 2015 book. So you want to start a film festival conversations with top festival creators. He's Considered a guru of all things, film festivals, Welcome to media monuments to. 

Thank you for having me, Sandra.

Well, you've written a book about film festivals. It seems that every city and little municipality has started a film festival. Why. 

 So back in the nineties, it seemed to be a big economic development tool for Smaller and mid-sized cities. They saw the success of Sundance and the beginning of Tribeca. And some of these festivals that have been around for a long time that were sort of established to the industry and thought that they could.

Yeah. Drive some economic engine towards their downtown areas by creating film festivals. And that was the first wave then in about 2000 or so, the second wave started and that's when people who just love film decided, you know what? The local film festival isn't addressing mine. Are not showing the types of films.

I think my friends and I want to see, and that's when we had the second boom of film festivals. You know, unfortunately I think now there's probably too many festivals, especially in big cities. I know, like in Washington, DC, we have three independent film festivals, there was one and then two other started because they.

The one that was there. And as opposed to trying to join the organization and try to change it internally, they just decided to do something else. And we see a lot of that around the country. And I, I I'm thinking that with COVID and a lockdown and the way we are changing the way we're consuming media, some of those festivals aren't going to survive this, which is fine.

Actually. I think that there's too many out there as it is. Which sort of dilutes what the purpose of the festival is, which is to, to, to at least in my eyes, it's to expose audiences to works. They're never going to see any other way that especially films that we'll never find streaming distribution or theatrical distribution.

And it's a way for filmmakers to connect with audiences, to learn about audiences and what they're actually watching when they're watching this.

So you see consolidation in the future for these film Fest. 

I do. And I'm, I'm hoping,  it's one of the things I've been sort of trumpeting for the past two years is to sell festivals. Maybe it's time to start working with each other to, to try and bring these together. I think it would make everyone stronger in the end.

Well, that's what we want everybody to get their message out and get their film or their media project out there. Oh, what should people know when they're considering entering a film Fest?

Well, okay. So the first thing is I have this Axiom and there's a festival for every film that your film is not for every festival. And you have to really understand what that means. And what that means is I know you think your film is for everybody, but it's. And not all film festivals are for everybody.

When you go to a festival website and you look at the photos of people who are at parties, they're very different. We're different, different from festivals, even within the same city, they each target a specific audience. And you need to understand who your film is for. Go to see it in a theater and in a festival setting, especially now, which, you know, the Venn diagram of those who are COVID concerned.

And those who would go to a film festival is pretty much the same circle. You have to really understand who the audience for your film is. And then you can start coming up with a strategy for submitting to a festival. I meet way too many filmmakers who call me too late in the process and say, well, I've You know, I've gone to film freeway and I just, you know, I, I submitted to 150 festivals.

What do you think my chances are? And I said, well, you just wasted a lot of money because instead of maybe, you know, just sending out Willy nilly to 150 festivals, if you had done the research and found the 20 or 30, that actually. Your film and the audiences who would probably pay to see it, then you probably get down to 20 or 30 festivals and you would save a lot of money and  your success record would probably be much higher.

There's a lot of research that needs to be done. And I know that by the time filmmakers get to the festival part of their filmmaking journey, they're tired. They're run out of money. They, to them. I don't understand why I can't just apply to 50 of them and hope to get into all 50 of them. It doesn't work like that, and you really need to do the research.

And that research is much more than going to film freeway. I mean, the caveat on film freeway is all provided by the film festivals. Of course, they're all going to S  smell like roses. You it's about going to each individual website and really looking at the catalogs of the films they've programmed in the past.

Is your film anything like those films? If so, you probably have a good chance if. Then you don't have a good chance because the programmers, what they're trying to program for and program to doesn't necessarily change every year. So if you are not kind of in line with what they're thinking, then you don't have a really good chance.

So there's a lot of research and a lot of that research is to watch other films. And if you're not watching other people's films, then you really don't understand how the festival circuit works and you can't expect.

You talked about doing a lot of research. Is there some insight into when that research should say. 

Well, yeah, it should start. When you put pen to paper to write your script. I mean, when you write your script, you should know who your audience is. There's no such thing as a film for everyone. The wizard of odds is not for everyone, right? for an audience it's for specific audience is mostly for that.

You know, for kids, it's kind of growing up to be campy and other stuff, but, you know, in general, every film has a specific audience and you need to understand that going in this idea that my film is for everyone is a crock and it will lead to ultimate failure.

Well, one of the reasons I wanted to talk to you that Melissa had mentioned was that you had sat on panels for the selection process. 

Yeah. I've sat on lots and lots of panels and lots of juries.

So sitting on a jury you know, sitting on a panel is sitting on a jury. What is that experience? 

 when you're on a selection committee, if you're trying to find works that are unique works that are different. The more important you're trying to find works that work with one another. aye. Tell filmmakers festivals don't program the best. We programmed the best films that are first available to us that are a fit for our audience that are sometimes a stretch for our audience.

And it's the type of thing as a programmer. We want, we need our audience to stretch, to see that play well with each other, because you can't have films that are compete with each other, especially shorts on a block. They have to work with one another that are the right length for the story. You're trying to tell Are made by nice filmmakers.

I mean, if you're a jerk and you present yourself to a festival as a jerk, you're not going to get into a festival because no one wants to deal with you. There's a lot of other factors, but you know, there's, there's a lot to consider and sometimes we don't take the best homes. Sometimes the films of score are 98 or 99.

Don't get programmed because maybe it's a 20 minute version of a runaway bride story. What? I have three other versions, a three minute animated and a seven minute comedy. I can show my audience. Runaway bride story a year, which is it going to be? And I need to think about the amount of screen time I have and then number of films I want to show and again, who my audiences.

So sometimes the best films don't make it. Sometimes it's the films that fit in with the programming. And that's an important thing to know too, if you. The film and you understand how it fits into programming because it's been programmed at other festivals, et cetera, that gives you a leg up. You can go back to other festivals you're submitting to and say, Hey, by the way, I know that like three other filmmakers I've shown with in the past are coming to you with their films too.

Did you know that like the five of us together make a really great show and that we know each other really well. And if one of us can't be at the festival, the others can speak about. You know, my film, that's a big selling point to a festival because  it's hard to travel filmmakers in most festivals can't afford to do a lot of it especially now with the COVID restrictions.

And so I think that whatever you can do to sell your film to a festival, to make it easy for them to program is huge.

So now you are there. You're doing the research to make sure that that festival is Right. for you, but. Do the marketing aspect and say, 

Yeah. 

here's your, marketing or selling points,

Right. So as a festival, you know, you know, the three or four films that you can sell to the media, right. You know that a there's very limited media coverage anymore anyway. Right. And you know, the three or four that are going on. Yeah, the Washington post or wherever the big newspaper in that town is going to pick up.

And so there, you know, the other 150 films in a festival, they're asking the filmmakers to do that marketing, and you have to know how to do that marketing. It means you're gonna have to spend some time figuring out what's the best social to get people to that audience because the festival is going to do what they can write and they can do only so much.

Right. They're not omnipotent. They, they, you know, they don't, they're not on marketing geniuses. so they're expecting you to do some of that work. That's part of the partnership. I mean, most filmmakers go to festivals or put their films in festivals because it's there for the most part, the only way they're going to get distribution.

 And it's the way that they're going to connect with audiences. Well, if you want to connect with audiences, you got to have, have butts in seats,  Or, or eyes on a screen to watch it when it's streaming and you're going to have to make that happen. Cause the festival is only going to do so much.

And so there's, you know, there's a lot of work to your film. It's way past. And I think that's where a lot of filmmakers get frustrated because they'd like, well, I'm done. It's,  my mother says, it's genius. Therefore it's going to play everywhere. And then they start sending it out to inappropriate festivals and get rejected and then realize it's not playing everywhere.

And what have I done? And just a simple switch and how you're marketing your film or,  and reaching out with it makes a huge step.

 let's say I'm the first time filmmaker and I've got my film finally into a film festival. And what do I need to do to have a successful experience? And you're saying it's It was the research. It's the marketing. And then now you're at the film festival.

What is it that You need to do to make sure

that's successful? 

present. You can't be a wallflower. You need to go out there and you need to meet people. mean, before your screening, don't just talk to your friends, like walk the aisles and say, Hey, thank you for coming the festival. the way, my film is like the third one showing I hope you really.

 That goes a long way, especially if there's an audience ballot,  Because people want to vote for things that they, they know someone. But go and talk to filmmakers and talk to audiences. I always tell filmmakers when your film is on screen, don't watch the screen. You've seen your film turn around and look at the audience and see how they're reacting to your film.

 Cause maybe they're laughing at the stuff you didn't think was funny or they're really serious during what you thought was the comedy. Or maybe they have a different reaction of you from you on different scenes. And it's really important to understand how audiences are perceiving, what you're writing, what you're directing, what you're acting in, because that will help you in your future projects, much more than you looking at that screen and saying yourself,  look at the good job I did.

Yeah. Fantastic advice for people to do, to take those steps as opposed to watching their film. Cause as you said, they've already seen it. They know where every line is. So why do that? 

Yep. 

great. I wanted to ask you you started the DC short film festival. What was the big challenges you found when you first started? 

Well, I, so I started the festival because I had a film. Did quite well in 1999, 2000, if it played about 50 festivals, it was at the time, the most successful gay theme and short film to play it. It did great. But I was really frustrated by film festivals and too many festivals to me were about money and parties and sponsors, and they weren't about films and filmmakers.

And since I made a short, they definitely weren't about me. And I found that really disheartening. And so, I went to one festival that was sort of. Plead opposite of the rest. And it was the Ashland independent film festival. It was their first year. And maybe it's because they didn't know what they were doing.

And maybe cause it was like the first festival after nine 11 that, you know, so people could finally be together and there was that sort of nine, 11 after glow or that I just, it was magical. And when I came back to DC, I turned to a friend of mine and I said, listen, I don't know how to run a film festival.

But I know. I know what it should be in my mind. And so I want to create something that's about films and filmmakers. And if we do that right, everything else will fall into place. The money, the sponsors, the parties, all that other stuff will happen. But I want to create an event about filmmakers and film and films.

And so I had no idea what we were doing the first year was a. You know, a crapshoot, we will show 33 films in three screenings. I was lucky. I had a friend who worked at the Washington post who mentioned it in the weekend section and we sold out all of the shows and it was, it just kicked off a, you know, a very successful event that,  I grew, I left after probably about 12 years.

Cause I had grown tired and I wanted to do other things and start working with other festivals. Yeah, we had grown it to be the one, the largest sort of home festivals on the east coast and in the country. So I'm very proud of that work. And I'm very proud that we were able to elevate the importance of short films, not just the DC audiences, but to an international audience.

Well, that's fantastic. I wanted to talk a little bit about first say, congratulations, you're a filmmaker of the month for November by the DC film office. And I know you were in. DC radio, but it is a huge deal, especially because of our organization women and film and video. So, to be named that, what tell us about that.

How did that come about? 

Also after shutdown I had nothing to do. I was a consultant for film festivals around the world, and all of a sudden then when needed film festival consult. Or the type I was doing. Getting people to go. Digital was easy. But the other stuff I was doing wasn't necessary and I had nothing to do.

And so a few of my friends sort of conspired they knew the curators of an upcoming exhibition about Alma Thomas and Convinced them that they should do a film about her to go with this traveling exhibition and then tapped me to make the film. And I said, well, this is great. I would, I haven't produced a film in 20 years, but I I'm sure I can do this.

I just can't direct any, you need to find the right director and that sort of, I me off on the path and I ha I loved every minute of it. I forgot how much I enjoy producing. And of course, producing a story about such an incredible woman with such a. Incredible. Full rich life. Not just as an artist and not just as an African-American woman, but as a Washingtonian was just fascinating.

And I completely fell in love with, with Ms. Thomas as did everyone else who worked on the film? It was. Pleasure and an honor to make that film. You know, we, we made specifically for this traveling exhibition, so we knew it was going to be seen by hundreds of thousands of people as they saw this exhibition.

The festival circuit to me was sort of an afterthought. I figured I would throw it to some festivals, especially to some festivals of friends. It was picked up. It's now I think scheduled for 33 festivals. It's one about four or five it's you know, it's, it's, it's exciting. I have talks to, with an educational  distributor next week and a possible PBS.

And so th the film. It just took off like crazy. And I think it's, you know, it's the right story at the right time. That's that's 90% of filmmaking is right story, right time. You know, and so I it's, it's been, it's been a fun journey. I'm looking forward to finding another project to sink my teeth into.

That's fantastic. One of the things that you talked about, you said that it was easy to get people to go digital. During the pandemic for these festivals. Why was it easy? 

Well, I mean, it was easy in the sense that there was no other alternative. I mean, is that or cancel? And the tools were, they. People just didn't were reluctant to use it. I've been espousing for a decade or more. That digital has to be part of the festival experience. People like, no, it's not the same.

I'm like, no, of course it's not the same, but it doesn't have to be the same. And I still think moving forward, digital is going to be an important aspect for film festivals, because I think that festivals will be able to program specific films to be shown in a theater. And specific films to be shown online because they could probably bring a certain type of audience to a theater and another type of audience to watch online.

just because your film is selected to play online only doesn't mean it's less than any other film. It just means that that festival thinks that they can find the right audience for it. like in the past. No. I used to get complaints all the time. How could you program a film to play Sunday morning at 9:00 AM.

Who's going to 9:00 AM on a Sunday. And I said, you'd be surprised how full that theater is. Right? You made a film it's for an older audience. They're there, They've already been up since four 30. They're there they're the theater, like it's mid afternoon for them and filmmakers don't get that. You know, programming, you have to trust program and say, they know what they're doing.

They know when to program films and what theaters, et cetera. And to me, digital is just another theater and about picking the right films to play in that specific medium. I think watching films online is it's a godsend. It allows you to see many more films than you were ever able to see before. Yes, there's a little bit of overload and, you know, And yes, the experience isn't the same.

You can pause it whenever you want and go to the bathroom to get some more chips and arch the dog and I get it, but you know what, that's how you're consuming media in any way. That's how you're watching series on Netflix and that's how you're watching live television. So, you know, this idea that you have to be in a dark massive room with a huge screen, I think is a.

And I think that yes, that's what we want. That's the romanticism of filmmaking, but the reality is are 99% of the people who have watched your film are going to watch it on a small screen or screen that you think is inappropriate. So you better make sure that whatever you're shooting looks good that way.

Oh, so you have to see, imagine it as a big screen, but also on the small screen as well for a 

Right. 

items. Yeah, no, it makes a big difference, especially when the fact that there's not that many theaters. I'm, I'm a native portion, Tony as well, but I moved to New York and lived in New York for 20 years.

And when I came back, there was to DC, as you know, probably in New York. There's, you know, you can go see an independent film on the east side, west side, uptown, downtown, the east village Greenwich village. You know, so here in DC, there was not as many, and now there's even fewer places to 

Right. 

independent films.

So I think having things online can make a can get there more people can get that distribution now. 

Yeah. I think the way we're consuming media in general has changed. And I think that they obviously, the younger you are. That shift is even greater. I mean, I have nieces and nephews who are 18 to 22, who might go to a movie theater twice a year. Like it's just not in their wheelhouse to go to a movie theater, which I find incredulous because when I was a teenager, we were at the movies every Friday.

So it's, you know, times have changed. They they'd rather watch, you know, they'd rather consume media on their phones or on their computers or with, you know, are watching with friends remotely,  the way it's consumed as different. And I think that a lot of, especially older filmmakers don't understand that and don't, and to them, it's this gold standard of big screen, and that's not a reality.

It just isn't. And so either you have to learn the new reality or you're gonna set yourself up for a lot of disappointment.

You've been to a lot of film festivals over the years. Is there one that was a favorite of yours or you had a great time? 

Oh, I've been, I've been to hundreds of film festivals. I know. I mean, I don't, I don't necessarily have a favorite anymore. I have, I like festivals in which I feel. Like they're reaching out to filmmakers and that their event is for filmmakers and that they're doing everything they can to get filmmakers, to meet one another and to.

To work together. You know, it's funny, the greatest compliment I ever got for DC shorts. And I got it a few times is when a filmmaker would call me years later and say, Hey, I have a new film for you. Do you remember that year? I was there. I met this other filmmaker. Well, we became like best buddies and now we've made like three films together.

We want you to show this film to me. I mean, that's when I start to cry. Cause to me, that's when I know. It's done that. I have brought filmmakers together to work together, to find their tribe and to make the films that they want to make. And I think that festivals and events that do that part of the huge winners, the ones that are concentrating on sponsors and parties, I mean, yes, it's flashy and celebrity is lovely, but  having a celebrity at the festival doesn't.

Great. At least not to me, it might make it to, to someone else who that's, what their priority is, but my priority is for filmmakers to interact and build a community. And so any festival that does that to me as a winner,

 any other words of wisdom that you can partake for people looking to enter film festivals or at the film festival, any other advice that you can offer? 

 the big one is don't rush it and do the research and, you know, your, your film has a much greater shelf life than you think. I know everyone thinks that, you know, my film is I got six months on the festival circuit. You've got 12 to 18 months. You have some time and maybe your film just isn't right for that festival this year.

And maybe it's right for it next year. But again, it's really about understanding your film in who it's for, who it's really for, and then looking at festivals and who are they really. And when you find that they overlap, that's when you have a really good chance of getting in. I mean, if you've made a slasher film, you're trying to get into a festival.

That's never showed a slasher film before, you know, you don't have a chance in hell, right. But if you, you know, you make a really heartwarming story about an elderly couple and it, you know, you want to get into a festival in that their audience is all over, you know, or mostly 55 60 plus then that's probably a really good fit for you, you know, films about.

 young people are really hard to program because a lot of film festivals are not geared towards younger audiences and won't get those audiences in and their older audiences won't understand the film or appreciate it as much. Some festivals that are different than others, but in general, I think that's a good role.

I think it's really important before you put pen to paper to really think about that market who, who your film is for. And it's your story right for now? I'm morning, everyone. Now, if you're making a pandemic film or a film about life during, COVID forget about it, don't want to see them.

There's already thousands of them flooding the channels. And again, we can show audiences one or two. And a festival, but we can't show them a lot more than that. And so, you know, to me, that's a film for like five years, 10 years from now, but that's not a film for now. Right? I get it. You would need to make it.

It's a personal thing. You gotta get it off your chest. We all went through this experience. completely understand, but it's not a marketable film at this point. You know, festivals are trying to program films. That relate to their audiences and we'll bring their audiences in, especially now that audiences are reluctant to go back to theaters.

about finding films that will make them want to go to a theater and see it. So do take your time and do that research. you know, if you need to bring in a festival consultant, bring in a festival consultants, some are really great. Some not so good. You really need to look at their track record.

But you have to, there's a lot of work just as much work goes into the festival and distribution aspect of it as does writing and pre-production and production. It's not an afterthought. It's a big integral part of the process. And if you aren't treating it like such and budgeting for it as such, then you are really shortchanging yourself 

John. Thank you so much. This has been wonderful chatting with you and to contact John, to www.realplan.com to learn more about his recent documentary, go to www.ms. Elma, thomas.com. 

That's right. Watch the film. It's great. You're gonna love it. You're gonna fall in love with her just completely fall in love with her.