On May 2nd, 2023, the Writer's Guild of America or W G A   went on strike On July 14th, 2023, the Screen Actor's Guild and American Federation of Television and Radio Artists, or SAG aftra also went on strike. As of this interview recorded on August 18th, there is still currently no agreement reached with the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers, or the A M P T P.

The W G A is apparently back in discussion with the A M P T P today, so we'll see how that goes. But for this conversation, we're focusing more on the SAG after strike. I'm joined today by three working actors who are sag after members from Washington, dc, Maryland, and Virginia for a discussion about the real and felt effects of this strike.

We hear at Women in Film and Video. Stand in solidarity with the strikes and hope to not only shed light on these effects, but also discuss why the strikes are so important. So without further ado, I'd like to welcome to Wanda Underdo, Gabriel Koble and Keith Flip into the show. Welcome everyone.

Nice to

Thanks, Canice.

so to  begin and so that listeners can hear who is who, can you each introduce yourselves and let us know where you're based.

So Towanda, you can start.

my name is Towanda Du. I'm based in Maryland, 

I'm Gabriel Koble. Thanks Candace. And, I'm based in Washington, DC.



Hey, I'm Keith Flippin and I'm based in Fredericksburg, Virginia.

 Okay, women in Film and Video is based in DC and so we, we do tend to deal with the Mid-Atlantic a lot, so welcome, great representation for all of that. and then can you each tell us when you first became, a member of SAG AFTRA and your current involvement? 

Sure. I, joined in, 2009. I joined AFTRA before the merger. and, I started doing, voiceover work, which is my bread and butter. And I, do a lot of corporate educational work and, background in standin work since then, in the Washington Mid-Atlantic area.

this is Towanda. I joined and. 2001, I believe. I've been around a while and I currently serve on the local board of the Washington Mid-Atlantic on the National Board for Zag aftra, and I'm also on the TV theatrical Negotiating Committee.

Excellent.

This is Keith. I became a SAG member in 1988, was eligible to join in 1992, and became a, an after member in 2002 just after the commercial strike. And then I've been here since they merged and, and I am currently a board member of the Mid-Atlantic Local and, sit on a couple of national committees. And I am currently the secretary of the local.

Wow. Wonderful. thank you all for everything you do. okay, so what were each of your first thoughts when you found out that SAG after was officially on strike? And did you have any, projects that you're working on that were halted? Obviously you don't need to say specific names if they were struck projects currently.

I will say, so this was already a slow audition year for me. Typically, in a year I'll read four 50 film and television projects. by the time July hits, about half of those reads have come in. And this year, because of the anticipation of the strike, I had only had four reads. Which was a huge hit, in opportunity.

I was lucky enough to have a recurring role in a show shooting in Pittsburgh, from December through February, which was nice to be able to put a little money away before this hit.   But my first, reaction was about time, to be honest with you. there were a lot of, outstanding issues that have been.

Fixed in incremental ways, in past agreements, and I felt like this is the time it's now or never. So I was actually very happy

to do that, although the work prospects were, dismal.

Yeah. Towanda. Gabriel, how was it for you when you first found out?

Gabe, you can go.

Sure. I think, it's a very solemn, hard thing, but it's also, as Keith said, I think I felt like it was, I. The right thing to do and the necessary thing to do. I also think, given that we had an almost 98% strike authorization, vote, and the strength in knowing, our deep solidarity around needing to fix this contract and tamp down, the, essentially the wage theft and exploitation that was taking place in our industry, with the advent of streaming, It felt like the right time.

And also against the backdrop of the, much needed resurgence of the labor movement in this country after the pandemic sort of laid bare, the deep division, amongst, the needs of the working class and how they're not being met. It, it felt like, A hardship, but something that is completely needed and, part and parcel, part of the growing labor movement that we're going  through now.

I think in terms of exposure and solidarity and consumer awareness, and the fight that goes on and showing the public now that. Labor organizing and unions are becoming more of a, boring, deeper in the public consciousness. it was something that I felt was really, needed and that we were ready to fight for.

And Tawanda, how about you?

I come from a little different perspective being  currently on the negotiating committee, being in LA for like five weeks. Literally sitting across the table from the studios and the executives and negotiating, trying to negotiate a fair deal with them. we were optimistic going into the negotiations, but as it went on, we were seeing that they were not being very transparent.

With what they're making. 

Mm-hmm.

trying to come in with a fair deal. They were playing a lot of games and it got down to the last day. We even, extended our contract a little thinking that would move and we extended it by 12 days and 10 of those days they didn't even wanna meet with us. So it became apparent we were there at.

1159 of the last day, literally sitting across the table from them. And it was obvious when they told us, we said, we may strike that. They told us we were uncivilized for doing that. The, that, we were about to go on strike. So we immediately left that session and we put in our vote and we're like, we're going on strike because we need a fair deal.

And they're playing games, yeah. 

Yeah. so SAG AFTRA is asking for minimum earnings to keep up with inflation for protections with respect to the use of ai, residuals for streaming services, improvements to wages and working conditions, and so on. you can see all the specific demands listed online at. Sag after strike.org, but essentially these are reasonable and necessary evolutions and updates to the contract.

so to you, what are some of the most important reasons for this strike? are there any that stand out among what is being asked or is it collectively all or equally as important to you?

for me, there, there's so many issues. We're covering the bases of all those that we serve, whether it be, stunt performers. Whether it be singers, dancers, audio description, we're covering the bases here. We're talking about diversity, transparency in casting. there's so many services out there now that's like a pay to play.

Kind of a thing, which it shouldn't be. And with a lot of the casting offices closing, it's making it so that we, the performers have to set up a studio in our own home at our own expense. a lot  of that is going on our, is on us and it shouldn't be. And. we're fighting for, justice in all of those areas.

Of course, ai, that's a big topic. They're wanting to scan our images into their computers and say for background, they pay you a half a day's pay, and they can use your image in perpetuity on any project, not just the one that you're working on just forever. And of course, that's not right. yeah, there's a lot just making sure that we were asking for 2% of revenue sharing because the industry is moving more from network to streaming, and the studios actually don't wanna tell us how many subscribers they have or how much revenue.

And then they all say that they're bankrupt, but their CEOs are making, some of them are making $78,000 a day. So how are you rewarding the c e o who is managing a business that's not profitable? that doesn't seem right. So there's quite a few things, but I'll let my colleagues speak on it and we can, have a conversation.

But yes, a lot of this, yeah, we're fighting for the rights of all of our workers. Yes.

Yeah, I think it's so important to highlight, The, our incredible background community, I think they're, that's where the rubber meets the road. And I think they're often one of the more, they're the most disrespected and abused, members of our performing community. And they're such the backbone of so many of these.

Large productions that, are really doing gangbusters for  studios now. and, you know, the digital double and scanning has already been happening. fast company just had this article come out the other day where, there's all these, anecdotes of background workers essentially being coerced, and pressured to be scanned, with sort of the false, Promise of, you're gonna get this amount of work, you're gonna be featured in this, these many films or this many days on set and then never hearing from them again.

on productions, star Wars, Disney, Marvel type things. and. I think it's also important, to highlight, this is our likeness is our worth. And the idea that not only would they studios want to use that in perpetuity for such low pay without any form of, consent or, proper compensation is obviously, incredibly unjust.

But also, I wanna shout out. Our incredible colleagues in every aspect of production, right? all of the workers on set, the tech on camera in every department, wardrobe, makeup, all the folks who support us on set, our comfort, food, PAs, catering, these, this isn't just about the background aspect isn't just about.

Us. you think about a film like Oppenheimer or Barbie that has thousands of extras, period pieces, large scale blockbusters. We're talking about days and weeks of work for makeup, for wardrobe, who are handling all those background workers. So if the ideal of these studios is to essentially eliminate.

Our ability as workforce to show up and to earn and to represent ourselves. it's about us, but it's also about all of the other, production workers on set who are gonna lose the opportunity, to work and to earn, because. they're trying to eliminate us as, as human vessels. So I always like to highlight that.

I don't think a lot of people think about that. And I also just wanna shout out our family in the W G A and in every production department who's suffering right now, because there is so little work. and this is about solidarity between. All of us because, especially when it comes to background, it has deep implications in terms of the AI usage for everyone on set, and a reduction in our ability to work and earn.

Yeah, these are clearly necessary things for moving forward that need to be figured out because this technology is continuing and as you pointed out, it's people are already being, taken advantage of. and this is again, highlighting the importance of unions in general and making sure that everyone gets, gets fair and just, treatment.

Absolutely.

We just

The 

the minimum so that we can, it can meet with inflation what's going

Our dollar is not, buying as much as it was a few years ago, and we're

for sure.

and. Over time, there's been a significant reduction in the take home pay that actors receive because of residuals. the majority of the studios have been in pursuit of a method by which they can bypass traditional distribution models and the associated talent compensation costs that go along with those.

And so streaming was a beautiful opportunity for them to do that because rather than have a network rerun. A show goes to their siloed streaming service and the rates of compensating actors in a hit show and a streaming ser streaming service are much lower than they are to have a network. Primetime rerun and AI offers that other opportunity.

So I personally, lemme just say for myself, having been an actor for 30 years and having experienced what it was like to get network residuals on primetime reruns, those things would pay my bills. They would pay my rent. and now I'm working just as much, but the residuals payments are much, much lower and I have to work that much harder.

I have to work twice as much to earn overall just as much.

you're getting less, but the cost of living is continuing to go

that too. That too. but it is the net take home pain. Not just because of inflation, but because of these ways they bypass distribution and also background. Nobody ever talks about this. people, background work, actors do, their principle actors to be, and if one is scanned as a background actor and they become a principal actor, Have lines.

They go on to do larger and larger roles. There is no sunset on the retention of those digital images. I shot a, a show for a universe of. Shows, let's just say. and after we were done wrapping, I was headed back to the wagon. They say, no, you've gotta go to the trailer. what do you mean?

And I stepped into the trailer and there's this panorama, this diorama of cameras, and you have to stand in this position and this position. And I got to the end of it and I said, okay, I get that you need this for my episode, but how long does this company re retain this image? And they said, you're the first person that's ever asked that question.

I'll try to get you an answer, and I never got one. And that tells me that there is no limitation on how long they can retain the data. And I am not data, an actor is not data. We are not being compensated for being turned into data. And that's the issue.

exactly.

No, for sure. and it is, also important to, as you've been highlighting with everyone involved in any production that, it is great to have these big famous names and a-list celebrities out there picketing and bringing attention to this strike, but the vast majority of members are people that are just.

Working and struggling to pay bills and all of that, and that is who is most affected. and yeah, have any of you personally been out doing any picketing or been able to get to any of, the demonstrations or sharing a lot on social media or how are you showing your support?

Wow. We've been doing everything.

Talking three. Strike captain.

Yeah, exactly. We're

I know we just want some specifics and also what we're gonna tell our listeners as well how they can help and is as well. But what have you been doing so far? Because also it's important to note that none of you are in New York or LA and a lot of times people, at least outside of the industry feel like those are two hubs of what's going on right now.

But there are, there's plenty you can do outside of there as well.

Go ahead.

I would just offer for those interested in our strike actions to which people are invited to come and stand with us and, leaflet and hold signs. they can go to, sag after strike.org. You can look at the calendar, therefore the mid-Atlantic local Washington, mid-Atlantic local, and you can see upcoming events.

but we've had Leafletting events at, the M P A in DC where they've had screenings of, what was it? Barbie,

Blue beetle,

blue beetle, and there was another bug animal.

the cat noir.

Cat Noir. Thank you. and, Amazon HQ two in Arlington. And then we just had a rally in Wilmington with a huge turnout of about 300 people,

And then we just had a rally in Baltimore.

 And also, I was also on the picket line in LA as well when I was out there. and thousands of people came out. It was like a mob. It was just like, and it wasn't just SAG AFTRA members, it was all of our sibling unions. W G A D G A, teachers unions, every, I was almost getting emotional.

there was so much support. They'd been calling this, hashtag hot labor summer. and that's right. we're all out supporting each other knowing that, we all have some of the same wants and desires and we're a viable part of the labor force, and, we all need to be seen and heard As you were touching on Candace.

86% of our membership does not make the $26,000 a year it takes to get health insurance. And sometimes in the press they make it like it's all Hollywood and everything else. These are, we're just people trying to make a living, pay our bills, put food on the table. And with all of these, things that they're doing, especially with streaming, there are performers who have leads on shows.

That are making residuals that are $10 and things like that, as opposed to network, which I've worked network streaming, all of it. I'm still getting my residuals from the network, those larger amounts. And then you look at the streaming one and you're like, what is happening here? We need to be able to share in the revenues that these.

Corporations are, bringing in, and when they say they don't have any money, we see in the press that they're telling their shareholders it's a blockbuster year and we've brought in billions, and then they come to the table and say, we have no money. It's come on.

Yeah, I think, the public is certainly seeing through some of this as well. when you look at, if they were to meet the demands, it's one or at most like 2% of their annual revenue or something to accomplish it. That is really highlighting this. It's interesting to think of what the sort of social currency they're losing or if people is.

People are gonna just forget once. These are hopefully resolved in a just manner, but I personally find it encouraging that this is shedding a light on these massive imbalances and these injustices and com, like encouraging more unionizing and all these people to come together in solidarity and realize, yes, these.

Big studios and companies and whatever they are, corporations of all different types, they don't get their profits without the workers, like how important the workers are, like what you all do is how they are successful. So I really appreciate that you all are, striking and doing all of this, and sacrificing your yourself right now for the good of the future, the future for yourselves and for future performers.

So I really, we really appreciate it as well. We definitely stand in solidarity.

Thank

Thanks.

so yeah. So how have, there's been some instances for getting work in the meantime with things like the interim agreement, which it's not a waiver, it's an interim agreement. It's people that have, yeah, it is people that have agreed to the terms. for anyone who wants to see who has. gotten that interim agreement that is constantly updated again on SAG after strike.org.

have any of you had any, fortune of being able to work on or get work with any interim agreement projects currently?

I actually am currently, working on an interim agreement project. I have one of the leads in the movie and yeah, so I've been taking advantage of that and it's been great. And one thing that I wanna highlight about it is what's in our interim agreement, which is, in between. When we finally get a, an agreement, the same terms that we were requesting from the studios are what's in this interim agreement.

So what they say they can't do independent, artists, film makers are able to sign it and say, yes, we can abide by what's in this agreement, but the big corporations say that they can't. No, you can do this.

It's proving that it's reasonable and viable

reasonable and fair?

yeah, and you've got little ones. You've even got, some as big as 8 24, which is still, dwarfed by comparison to, the Netflix and Disney's and Apples and Amazons. But it's, it's encouraging. Maybe this will help, more of those independent companies get.

More, more work and visibility and build up and prove, Hey, if you treat people fairly, then you get the work.

In the studios can't use an excuse of, oh no, these, we can't meet these demands. they're unfair. No. People with way less budgets are using it and say, this is this, we can do this. So yes, you can do it as well. 

Yeah, and they've just increased some of the streaming rates to consumers as well, so they're automatically already getting more money. It's if you have all that extra money, maybe give it to the people who are creating

that was

the projects that you're

Yeah, we would look at the trades, of course, reading it while we were negotiating, and then as they said, there was no more money. The next day we would see the subscriber rate went up again. It's really? You're all, you're gonna, you're gonna make a deal. You're playing to get the money back that you're gonna give.

It's come on, stop playing games.

Do you feel like that though, what you're in hinting at there that they're buffering that money right now? we don't know what's happening now as today, WGAS apparently in discussions again, and hopefully because all of the, The, so the support of different unions that help each other.

I know SAG AFTRA is not, offering interim agreements to anything that conflicts with W G A and all of those, their demands. hopefully that will help push things forward. Do you guys feel like there's maybe imminent sometime by the fall or anything that might indicate when this

I can't speak to that. Being still on the negotiating committee

that's true. Yes.

can't say, but we are the leadership of, both unions are in constant communication. I will say that.

And is, has there been a decent amount of respect that you feel back and forth in these conversations? Okay.

yes. Very much 

Yeah. It seems like everyone does want these to end, but it's just, a

Yes. We want it to end. Go ahead, Keith.

Gabe posted a, an interesting article today about the, pension, systems of New York City and that they collectively, what was that, Gabe?

just the push for solving, the wor the worry about. solvency of the pension fund, and

and not ours, but the New York City, workers' pension funds that are heavily invested in these producers.

Yeah. And, basically saying to the studios, you really can't let this drag out without, some deep damage here.

that's true. It's, this is, it affects more than people would even realize necessarily. right off the bat. It's not just, some actors, it's a lot of people beyond actors. It's, it's where that web of, connection continues beyond this industry as well.

The only thing we have as a membership and as a union is solidarity and resolution in the face of the a PTPs resistance and their refusal to return to the table. There's nothing we can do to leverage them or co coerce them back to the table other than to show that we are unified. That we are willing to wait this out.

And the nice thing when a city says, Hey, look, we're heavy. we have hundreds of millions of dollars invested in you guys and if you keep this up, it's gonna make us rethink that. That kind of pressure is what may change their minds. Otherwise, we are just waiting and. If this is all going to end up in our favor anyway, the producers are just delaying the inevitable, and I believe it is going to end up in our favor because we're just, we're not asking for anything absurd.

It all makes sense what we're asking for. Just makes sense.

And it's basic respect. yeah. and, so did I, do either any of you wanna talk a little bit about the importance of things like the entertainment community fund in helping, keep people able to pay some bills while all of these things are going on, and how that helps you all continue staying in solidarity and not having to break because you're, unable to pay a bill or eat or anything.

That's right. We contributions are, are wonderful to the Entertainment Community Fund. Also, the SAG After Foundation, is accepting donations as well to ha to help our performers here, while they're on strike, to pay their bills and manage until the strike is over.

it helps everyone continue as long as necessary. and because it's so important to not give in. And I know that, nobody seems like in any of these communities, or unions, nobody wants to give in. Nobody is, they're all standing strong together. and as Keith was saying, yeah, it's only a matter of time.

They're delaying the inevitable at this point.

And every little bit helps. Nothing is too small. I know recently we had some high profile names, give some big donations, and that's greatly appreciated, but. Everything, every gesture is, greatly appreciated. Yes.

Sharing our stories and spreading the gospel that, I'm so appreciative that, you brought those pieces up, Candace, that, just fighting the stigma that we are a group of. Laborers that are wealthy or famous or elites that, when in fact we are a majority working class labor force.

And again, just helping us fight the stigma that it's not just a Hollywood, issue with all love to our beautiful, la local. and that artists and creatives are your friends and family in every corner. Of the country, small towns, big cities, and we need support amplification and platforming everywhere.

Yeah. So not only if you are, again, that kind of goes back to the solidarity and support with things like picketing and social media presence and on all of that, that, you don't have to be a member. You could be a future member, you could be someone who just respects.

Proper treatment of humans. could be any of that. But yeah, please do what you can. And I, we're gonna link in the show notes, the, all of this stuff as well where you can go to donate and find things. But again, sag aftra strike.org has all of that information as well and is very up on all of those different things.

you think, In general like this, Gabriel had brought it up earlier, but this is highlighting again about unions in general. do you think this is maybe like a turning point in our society at all, for other industries and everything getting involved? Or is it one of those unfortunate?

once this is wrapped up, people will just. Dive right back into the way things were. we knew that even the pandemic we're like, this is gonna change things, and so much went right back to the same from before. how do you feel in terms of what this is going to be as a potential turning point moving forward?

I think this is a pivotal point in our history, and we'll look back at this moment and see that it's gonna change. Change the landscape for future generations. there's so many, labor unions on strike, fighting winning deals and things like that, and it hasn't been, this way in decades. So I think, yeah, things are gonna change from here on it.

I don't think we're ever gonna go back to the old way of doing things. Yeah.

I also think, at our labor actions, one of the, the great silver linings of community and connection is that we have members in our local, because we're located where we are, on the borderline of Right to work states and Union states, that people seeing this solidarity. Changes the trajectory of their career path and in favor of becoming full members of a union that represents them and that helps support. Their ability to earn a living. And I think people are seeing that everywhere. This is epidemic of loneliness. I think that's come out of the pandemic that has, a lot of us feeling isolated and to see that coming together not only is a thing that satisfies our need to belong, but. Can change things for the better is a powerful message.

And I think that is what's spreading across the country right now. And I think that's, we exemplify, we and the W G A and the Teamsters who just satisfy their agreement with u p s and what we're seeing with the, hotel workers in LA and with the, flight Attendance Union and with so many others that have stood by our side as we've pick, as we've picketed and as we've had strike actions.

It really is an awakening, I think, for the entire country.

Which personally I think is great. Yeah.

to touch on what Keith was saying too, when we were in la, the hotel workers were gonna go on strike. Their contract was actually ending on the same day that our contract was ending for SAG aftra and in solidarity with them, we, when they were going to go to strike, we literally. Checked out of the hotel and went to a different one.

Literally the next, because we supported our ying siblings here, brothers and sisters, yeah, exactly. we're all in it together. We're like, okay, and with like hours, no, it's just nope. It's, oh, they're gonna strike. We're leaving. we packed up and the next morning we're like, where are we?

It's great. it's a great strong community of people, it's everyone, 'cause also the hotels, that's a thing your community deals with all the time. You're traveling a lot for work and everything. 

And we value the work that they do. Yes,

Yeah.

and our members are prepared to show up at their strike actions and their labor actions, and we've already been having those conversations extensively. It's a great coming together, not just for our members with ourselves, but with so many other people fighting similar fights.

Because even before sag, after went on strike, we were on the picket line for W G A D G A and all of the other unions as well. Where yeah.

Yeah, it's, it's really great what you, what, what is happening here. hopefully the fact that this is something that most people can understand and wrap their head around, and people, d people watch things. They, they get out there. Also, it should be known that it, as it stands now, there's no boycotts.

So people listening, please. Continue to go watch movies and shows and point out the importance of this industry and how powerful it is and how many people partake. so yeah, it's a thing that's great that it, it shines a light on that a lot of people are. Excited to learn more about and wanna know.

And that's why, partly why we're doing things like this podcast to let people know a little bit more about what's actually going on. Because if they know there's a strike happening, but they might not know some of the specifics or what they can do or what this truly means. And it's important, I think, to educate people about how important this is.

so we're running, okay on time now, but before we, wrap up, is there anything that, any of you. Specifically wanted to add about this or make sure we mentioned or covered while you're here,

No.

if not, I do have one other question that maybe we can sneak in earlier. Just out of curiosity, since you mentioned you have, what does a strike captain do compared to just someone

Oh, there you go.

someone just picketing. Yeah. So what is the role of a strike captain?

To keep people off the sidewalks, to make sure they stay hydrated. to not make sure people don't impede traffic. making sure people are engaging the public in a positive way, representing the face of SAG aftra, and educating people in good spirit about our, our agreement and what we are asking.

And to try and encourage them to apply pressure to the producers to get them to return to the table if they can. But other than that, it's all herding cats.

Yeah. it's an important job. especially when groups of people gather in large numbers. You do need people to corral a little bit and keep things safe and, focused and all that. So again, thank you for all of what you've been doing, and we definitely, Definitely hope for a fair and just resolution very soon.

Maybe by the time this comes out, but we'll see. and yeah, so for any listeners looking for ways to support the strikes, SAG AFTRA has, as we said before, been encouraging members, future members, non-members, everyone to join demonstrations, pickets, be vocal online about your support. again, there's no boycotts right now.

So continue to do all that. There's the Entertainment Community Fund and the other, SAG after, we'll link all of the things in our show notes as well, but those places you can donate, which provides emergency assistance and for all the continually updated and current info, like who has interim agreements and such, and even a social media tool, you can go to sag.

After a strike.org and this will all again be in our show notes. So thank you so much for all of what you do, and and continuing to fight the good fight and stand in solidarity. And thank you so much for talking with us today.

Thank you Candace, for your

Thanks, Candace. Yeah.

for this opportunity to speak to your,

Of course. and it's all because of women in film and video as well, 

here. More power to women in film and video.

Yes.

Yeah.

in film and video.