S1 Ep6: Students at the Center: Linking Learning to Life for All

Throughout most of the twentieth century, high schools were seen as the end of formal public education. After high school, some students went to college, mainly those interested in the professions—medicine, law, architecture, engineering, and so on—but most went right to work or started a family. There were some vocational courses offered in high school, mainly because there was federal funding and it was often viewed as an outlet for students not perceived as academically inclined, but by and large, vocational education was not viewed as a means for students to develop and explore career interests or link what they learned in school to their desired futures.

Today more than 75% of good jobs, jobs that can support a family, require a high school diploma and additional post-secondary schooling or training.  Currently, though, about 30% of high school graduates attempt to go into the workforce. After high school, they want to work. It's an honored family tradition and they want to get on with their lives. But by age 21, most find themselves working part-time jobs with periods of unemployment and not making enough to fully support themselves, let alone a family. They realize the world has in fact changed, and they now need to go back to school for a degree or additional training to expand their range of opportunities. But they've been out of school for several years. And so they struggle to succeed when they go back, and they often pick up debt along the way. 

There must be a better way, a way for high schools to connect students with stable futures post-graduation, and we're here to dig into how this can happen with Anne Stanton, President of the Linked Learning Alliance (CA), an organization which works with schools to help them integrate college preparation and career development to give students pathways to adult success. 

Transcript

Bob (00:00):

Hello, and welcome to the Designing Education podcast. In today's episode, we're talking to Anne Stanton about how we can better link what students do in high school to the futures they wish to have. We can't wait to jump into the conversation, but before we start, we want to take a moment to remind you to subscribe to the Designing Education podcast. Wherever you listen to podcasts, we're available: on Spotify, Apple, and Google podcast, just to name a few. Subscribe to the Designing Education podcast, and never miss an episode.

Bob (00:31):

Welcome to the Designing Education podcast series. I'm Dr. Robert Balfanz, director of the Pathways to Adult Success program and the Everyone Graduates Center at Johns Hopkins University. Delighted to have you join us today. This is the sixth episode in a series of conversations we'll be having with education leaders, thinkers, and practitioners from across the country. We'll talk about what it will take to create an education system that truly empowers all young people and sets them on a pathway to long-term success. In today's episode, we're excited to be joined by Anne Stanton, president of the Linked Learning Alliance. Throughout most of the twentieth century, high schools were seen as the end of formal public education. After high schools, some students went to college, mainly those interested in the professions—medicine, law, architecture, engineering, and so on—but most went right to work or started a family.

Bob (01:21):

There were some vocational courses offered in high school, mainly because there was federal funding and it was often viewed as an outlet for students not perceived as academically inclined, but by and large, vocational education was not viewed as a means for students to develop and explore career interests or link what they learned in school to their desired futures. The world has changed dramatically since then. Today more than 75% of good jobs, jobs that can support a family, require a high school diploma and additional post-secondary schooling or training. Currently, though, about 30% of high school graduates attempt to go into the workforce. After high school, they want to work. It's an honored family tradition and they want to get on with their lives. But by age 21, most find themselves working part-time jobs with periods of unemployment and not making enough to fully support themselves, let alone a family.

Bob (02:09):

They realize the world has in fact changed, and they now need to go back to school for a degree or additional training to expand their range of opportunities. But they've been out of school for several years. And so they struggle to succeed when they go back, and they often pick up debt along the way. Surely there must be a better way, a way for high schools to connect students with stable futures post-graduation, and we're here to dig into how this can happen with Anne Stanton, president of Linked Learning Alliance, an organization which works with schools to help them integrate college preparation and career development to give students pathways to adult success. Welcome Anne. 

Anne (02:40):

Hi Bob. I'm delighted to be here.

Bob (02:43):

This is going to be a great conversation. Before we dig into it, though, here at Designing Education, we like to start things off by asking: when you were in high school, what was a good day?

Anne (03:00):

That's a great question. I was really fortunate to be a scholarship student in a private independent high school. So let's start with that as a fact. A good day for me was that I always had the opportunity there to do independent study, and I was very passionate about the arts and about theater at that point. And I was given the trust and the bandwidth and the mentorship there to be able to direct a play: pick one out, figure out how to get it done, make sure that ultimately the product, the deliverable at the end game was the show. And so I think that those experiences, the trust that you put in young people, the ability for adults to say, okay, go find it, do it, ultimately is what I would like to see every young person in every high school have the chance to do.

Bob (04:09):

Yeah, that's really interesting because you know, oftentimes when parents have the opportunity to send their child to any school, they often look for schools where what we often refer to as extracurriculars or enrichment are really embedded into the school day. And that's a little bit what you were talking about, right? So it just becomes part of your lived experience in high school that you're doing these experiential and more independent activities; it's not just your cut-and-dry, “here are your six classes and get at it.”

Anne (04:43):

A hundred percent. And it was about integrating all the things you were learning academically. And I was studying academically, but the instantiation of it was right in building a production, right? And that enabled you to look at all sorts of elements of it, from English literature and Shakespeare to, ultimately, what were the historical factors that needed to be there in terms of costume design or—this is just one example. So I think it is a very rich underpinning for why I believe that the work of Linked Learning is a mission: to make sure that more and more young people have these experiences that link what their sense of discovery and purpose is to why they're in school; what are they learning there and to what end?

Bob (05:43):

Yeah. So could you just actually expand on that a little more and tell us how the Linked Learning Alliance is trying to take what was a special opportunity you had and make it more the norm.

Anne (05:52):

So we are—and I say this boldly, but it's what we believe in our hearts—the Linked Learning Alliance is really leading a movement to help every young person determine their own future through linked learning, which is a proven approach to education that integrates rigorous academics with real life learning experiences and also, equally important, strong adult supports that help prepare all young people for success in college and career and in life. That began as a vision about 15 years ago in California. And we were trying to animate the “and.” In your opening comments, you talked about the “or”: there was a choice, there was a fork in the road; and some young people went here, some young people went there. We wanted to see what would happen if you put those two together.

Anne (06:48):

Ultimately, we have really focused on the power of plus: that college and career preparation make learning incredibly more relevant, more engaging, and connect young people to their sense of purpose, give them the chance to discover what that is, and also prepare them fully for a full range of post-secondary opportunities. And ultimately, we believe this has to be part of a bigger conversation in this country about what we believe high schoolers should be able to experience. So we work with K-12 districts, higher education institutions, and employer partners that are all really dedicated to providing these accelerated experiences for more and more young people. And for us, the focus has really always been that these experiences don't exist in spite of the system, but because of the system: the system's working toward developing these experiences more and more for young people.

Bob (08:17):

Wow. That's really important and impressive work. One of the things I want to build on is that it seems self-evident, but what we don't often step back and say, is “Why would students connect what they do in school to their future? Why would they assume that one is connected to the other?”—when it's so important that it is. And we also know that when kids are adolescents, they make that decision: “Is schooling for me? Do I think it's going to take me somewhere such that there's value in it? Even if it's sort of boring and challenging or not interesting at times, do I see the point; or is it just something I'm trying to endure for as long as I can?” And central in making that decision that “[education] is for you” is really seeing that connection to your future. So can you build on that and say why, that's such an essential thing, and why it's not built into the everyday structure of schooling without some work on our part.

Anne (09:11):

I think that sometimes systems, and I say this with all due respect to them, you know, ultimately systems develop over time and sometimes they are also serving, more fully sometimes, the needs of the adults. And I think what we need to try to get back to is putting students and their experience at the center of everything that we do. And I'm not saying any educator doesn't start there. I think over time systems build up; we get used to doing things the same way. And ultimately, I think we have to get back to understanding truly what connects a young person to their sense of purpose. And having enough room to discover what that is. And I think that educators, no, I know that educators know that there are turning points in the academic journey that young people have that really do have the potential to change their trajectories forever.

Anne (10:09):

So the transition from eighth grade to ninth grade; and the transition from what you experience in ninth grade, and are you going to continue on to 10th grade? And if we don't pay attention to that, and the experiences young people have… we are obviously the ones informing whether a young person thinks it's worth my time to stay here or not, and, what am I getting out of this? Or am I just showing up because somebody's going to check my attendance, or do I really come to school with a sense of purpose of out of all of this? I'm going, I understand why this relates to what I'm trying to do or think about or what I hope to do in my future, or at least I'm given a chance to discover some of those things.

Anne (10:55):

And then we do it again in high school, you know: after high school, what's the next step? There are often big chasms between these transitions. People don't pay attention to that space between them. And so ultimately I think we need to understand from a student center: how do we create a continuum of experiences that are seamless, that build on each other, that scaffold with a student's experience at the center? 

Anne (12:02):

I really believe, if we think about it from a youth development perspective, instead of just education, we know that young people between the ages of 14 and 24, it’s this decade of difference, right? They're developing their core dispositions, their aspirations, their sense of their self, their sense of purpose, their brains are changing in ways that they haven't changed since childhood. They're making connections that are going to allow them to engage in more complex thinking. So I think we need to really look at and demand learning environments that depart pretty significantly from the way we're doing things right now, because I think they're confining young people, they're confining teens, right? And they're also not connecting to them to the purpose of education, which is workforce and post-secondary et cetera. But they're all tied ultimately to what gives a young person joy, and infuses their day with a sense of passion for what they're doing and interest in what they're doing and the adults around them see who they are and help them continue to find that purpose.

Bob (13:34):

And to build on that, when you think about it, the other big shift is that when the great American high school was developed, it was very much assumed that different kids would take different paths and there was a way to get there. And now we know that everyone has to have a pathway from high school. There really isn't that pathway where you just go to work and there's a super successful way to the middle class from that. But as you've pointed out, our systems haven't really adjusted to that reality. And they still leave it a lot up to the kid to find their own way. I don't think it was purposely done this way, but it's almost this education of adult responsibility. To create those pathways to adulthood for the next generation. So I wonder if you could share some bright spots where schools have actually been able to redesign themselves and get away from what they were built to do to what we need to do now, and what were some of the steps they took to make that redesign happen, so there really was this connection kids got in school between what they were doing and the futures they want to have.

Anne (14:38):

Yeah. So I think we have a lot of bright spots and I would say there are some common denominators for those bright spots. I'll give you a couple of examples. Oakland Unified School District serves approximately 36,000 students, with very diverse languages at home and over 70% receive free or reduced lunch.

Anne (15:29):

Student enrollment is very diverse in that it's 24% African American, 13% Asian, 42% Latino, and 7% other ethnicities. And if you think of that as a pretty good portrait of what an environment can look like, it's a good place to look. They adopted Linked Learning across the board about 10 years ago: wall to wall pathways, and they have created partnerships. It is a community endeavor. It is the way they do high school, and that is how they talk about it. And from that emerged some really incredible partnerships. I'll give you an example. There was a partnership called the Oakland Health Pathway Partnership that focused on about 1500 kids over a number of years. And they wanted to work together to see what would happen to diversify their workforce so they began to look at how did they ensure that they were connecting with black and brown boys and girls? And ultimately, could they create something that provided not only learning and connecting it to their school, but also really intensive internships? And what we found is that it doubled the number of students in health pathways. It increased the, percentages of low-income American and African American students in health pathways. It improved the gender balance of students in health pathways. And for students themselves, when we put them in the center, they earned more high school credits. They graduated high school at higher rates. Their academic achievement was higher.

Anne (17:39):

And ultimately, they enrolled at college at higher rates, just because the work was very much focused on helping those young people see what was possible. And Oakland does this every day in a variety of, of their pathways. That's just an example in healthcare, but I think what it shows is that you can do it right, and you can do it at scale for all kids. 

Bob (18:51):

Yeah. And what I really appreciate is the emphasis on the need to do it at scale and system-wide. And not just one shining star here or incremental improvement there. And this was really driven home to me recently. We did some work in Baltimore trying to calculate how many students needed better pathways from high school to adult success. And we came to the stunning conclusion that there's about 5,200 kids entering ninth grade class, and currently about half of them might have what you would call a reasonable shot at a pathway to adult success. There's a room for a lot of improvement in those pathways. There's a lot of room to make them much stronger. But the bigger news was that about half the kids had nothing. And when you consider that, it just tells you, it's not about incremental improvement. It's not about just adding a few more internships or a few more apprenticeships, or a few more job shadows. You have to think systematically: how can we have every year, 2,500 better new pathways for these students? 

Anne (20:08):

And I think it takes vision; it takes leadership; it takes the commitment to turn some things upside down from the master schedule of how you do things. To whom are you shutting your door as a teacher and saying, I'm the person that's delivering this content? Or is it a collaborative experience where teachers are having the room to plan and work together, where the leadership is supporting their ability to do that, so that families see the difference that it's making for their young people and young people experience a different day-to-day where they actually think the adults know them and see them. And  one of the things that's great right now in California, Bob, is that in the governor's budget proposal, there was a $1.5 billion proposed investment for Golden State pathways, which are focused at the high school level to really link students to these experiences…

Anne (21:15):

… at a level in this state that could not be more transformational. And it's very tied to the principles of Linked Learning, the evidence base that we've seen. 

Bob (21:23)

Wow.

Anne (21:24)

I think this is also very timely and reflects the fact that young people at this point in time, have gone through the pandemic and had experiences that, honestly, no group of young people have had. And we're still seeing the effects of that. So whatever we can do at this time to invest with the kind of dollars we need to integrate all of this federal money and make the dollars locally a coherent way to make this vision [come] alive for more and more young people at a time that is extraordinarily important for us to reconnect young people… and this sounds dramatic, but we are at risk of losing a generation, right?

Bob (22:21):

Yeah. And speaking of a pandemic, there are clearly ways that it's provided some opportunities, but it's also complicated things. And some of the data I gave in the introduction here was from about the youth labor market before the pandemic. And one of the shifts is that now in some places, students can graduate or even drop out and make $15 an hour, which to them seems like decent money. So why is this not an okay path to adult success, you know: work or invent your way to the top? Didn't some of the tech Titans do this? How do we explain to our kids that this may seem like a path, but it isn't really?

Anne (23:00):

Honestly, if we think about it, the fact that so many young people voted with their feet during the pandemic to disengage… honestly, I say it's kind of a fair decision to make; it's a coping capacity. You do it. And then the labor market where you're getting, in California, you know, you're getting starting wages of $20 an hour.

Anne (23:58):

I mean, it'll make sense, Bob, you know that. It’s like, well, I get it. [But]as you say, in the long term, that is not a strategy that gets us to economic justice. Because it's very hard to reconnect back into systems when you have basically left on the road there. So ultimately, and you know this better than I do, the proof is in the data. So, I think one of the things that disturbs me a little bit, Bob, is that I think the pull of the strong labor market has caused people to disengage; but there is promise there, right?

Anne (24:49):

Young people were finding that they were more than capable of working, you know? And there were skills that were being developed in that process, right? [But then] going back to a classroom where I have to sit and receive is very hard to swallow again, when I've already shown that I can go and do things on my own. [So] we need to do everything that we can to reengage young people to their educational pathways, and make them rewarding, accelerated. And ultimately, I think we have to try really hard to say, we can't go back and do things the way we've been doing them, that actually hasn't worked for so many, many young people.

Bob (25:57):

Yeah. We have to really hope that we'll take the right lessons from the pandemic and not the wrong ones. It really showed that the level of agency a high school student is capable of is much more than we built into our systems. We talked about, right, where we still treat them as slightly older children, and we have to have them very scheduled and prescribed in brief chunks of things, all in an organized way where they seldom have to think for themselves. And they really show us that, hey, they survived a pandemic. They were out there working, navigating, helping their families, and still keeping up to a degree with their schoolwork. And one of the things, I know, that many students told us was, that was because in high school, a lot of the work they did was, the fancy term was, asynchronous.

Bob (26:42):

Which basically meant you got an assignment and did it on your own time. And they found some agency in that because they could then do it when they weren't working. And they could find a way… and now some of them struggled when they went back, when it became more face to face and in person again, because they wanted to keep up their work hours, but the work hours and the school hours didn't coincide. So in a way they were trying to create the mix together. They just didn't have the systems and the supports to do it. And we that's really our job. But we have to learn from them that they really saw how those two things could work together with flexibility. But we have to do it in a way that leads somewhere, and isn't just sort of getting both done, but not in a way that's additive or powerful.

Anne (27:30):

I think that's a hundred percent what we need to be thinking about right now. So when we expect young people to come back and ultimately discard everything that they learned during the pandemic… Ultimately, at this time we have a couple of choices. We can say, we're so exhausted by everything. We just have to go back to what we know and do it over it again, because we don't have the brain space to do anything that might really focus on what we've learned and put students at the center.

Anne (28:28):

Particularly high school students. [But] we have another path we could take, which is to say, we learned a lot. And so how do we really lean into accelerated opportunities for young people? How do we really place emphasis on the importance of learning and earning models? How do we think about the use of time? Why don't we value—and this is heresy that I'm saying this—somebody who's doing an internship and give them as much credit for that as somebody who's taking an AP course? There are ways that the system has been set up about who values what, and what's valued, that we just really need to think about in work and the opportunity to use your brain and your skills and apply them in a way that allows you to see what you're good at and know what you don't like.

Anne (29:34):

Those are really powerful things and I think we can ensure that we come back with those things in mind: what have we learned? And ultimately, where can we be creative? How do we look at time differently to allow people to do this? How do we value the experiences that young people have, and not just in the world of workforce, but why don't colleges value the fact that young people actually have experienced the applied opportunity to test theory in action? These are just real basic questions about what we should be thinking about. And [for] a lot of those lessons, young people have taught us to be honest in the last few years. 

Bob (30:33):

Yeah. And what's really interesting about that is that it just remind me of another [case], a rural school in Northern New Mexico, and their goal was to create more internships, but they were determined that these would be internships in management positions. As opposed to just any old thing. And this is a struggling town. But they were still able to find enough management internships to give them to a large number of a class. And one of the things they said was learned, both from their end and from the employers who did this, was that when these students were put with someone for example who's approving loans for houses and stuff…

Bob (31:18):

… that after a while, they were giving the kids significant roles. Advisory roles. “Read this, tell me what you think.” And they were impressed by what the kids could do, even in these management roles. And that just really struck me as to how we underestimate what an adolescent can do. And what struck me as an old-time history major was, that if you go back to the 19th century, most businesses were started by folks in their late teens and early twenties. It wasn't 35-year-olds starting those businesses then. So we've tended to downgrade what we think kids can do over time. And I think that's part of this bigger story.

Anne (31:58):

I could not agree more. if we really rethought what we as a nation think a 16-year-old is capable of, we would rethink the way we deliver educational experiences for them. Because I think we can look to other nations and we can criticize some of the things that are happening, but the fact is that ultimately compulsory education ends at 16 in some other nations. And then you get tto have a say in what is the next step of what you want to do with your life. In the best of those systems—not those that are just replicating tracking—I think there's a different sense of what a young person at 16 should be capable of, is capable of. I think we could put a lens to this country and say, You know what, actually, they are capable of way more than we think they're capable of.

Bob (33:14):

Yeah. And, building on that, I think the other thing I want us to talk about here a little bit is that we renamed vocational education as “career and technical” education and pathways, and we talk about it and envision it as a very forward thing. That's very advantageous for everybody, right? We're saying you want this, both college and career preparation, but we do have to acknowledge that vocational education over time got a bad rap, in many cases deservedly so. Because it was initially used really to separate people: minority, low income, even female students, [to say], you're going to be manual labor or clerical labor, and it's these white male students that are going to college over here. I remember that the very first vocational classroom I saw in a bigger urban high school was in Baltimore, in the 1990s. And literally it had row after row of these large industrial Singer sewing machines at a time of globalization when it's not the greatest job to become an industrial sewer, but all that industrial sewing was happening not in the United States at that time yet. That was the vocational course still being offered. Because it was historically... So how do we move beyond this, both acknowledge this legacy and make sure we move beyond it?

Anne (34:29):

Oh, I think we have to recognize a shameful history. And I think for me, the vision of Linked Learning was really a hundred percent created to stop the harm that was being done to generation upon generation of young people, particularly marginalized groups. And ultimately the way you're either deemed college material or not. So many millions of young people tracked away from degrees, high paying jobs, ultimately economic and social mobility. So I think we really wanted to start with, what would happen if you animated the “and.” Really animated the “and,” and made sure that you are you uniting college and career curricula in a way that leveled the experiences; sorry, not leveled, [but] actually raised the experiences for everyone.

Anne (35:34):

So I think the evidence shows, and the work shows, on the ground young people's voices say that we have succeeded in a lot of ways to try to disrupt that shameful history in the past legacy. But Bob, there is so much more to do, and ultimately, the work is never done. I find for me, it's very difficult for me to honestly hear the change in dialogue when we've moved from all of this effort to be on the “and” in college and career. Those two together, they're larger than either of them are ever individually. And we've now, I guess, gotten back to, oh, we just do career pathways. We do career readiness.

Anne (36:34):

Because we don't really need— why do we need college? Like, oh, college is bad. Like we're now saying college is bad, and I think we need to all just say, that is a dangerous conversation to be having. Because ultimately it is going to get played out, not on children of privilege; it's going to be played out on young people in marginalized communities. And that's not okay. So we tend to take a pretty hard line on, show me the data [that says] you don't need something. You don't need a postsecondary credential. Because ultimately I think it takes us backwards. 

Bob (37:37):

Yeah. And I think it's just so essential as you do. And Linked Learning Alliance is so strong on saying it, these go together; these are not inseparable. And to your point, for all the complicated things of the cost of college and the debt people have afterwards, it's very hard to imagine that any family of privilege would be the first ones to say, my kid doesn't need college. And until that happens, it's really hard to see how you can have a quest for social justice and [yet] say, well, we're back to college for some. So I think that's really important. We’ll keep that at the forefront. And where I want to bring us in conclusion is that we focus in this series on designing education, but in the case of connecting what happens in high school to the future students seek, this also involves employers and mayors and workforce development. How do we get them to collaborate more deeply with schools and to see as part of their work to provide students and their community with dual experiences of college and career readiness, and pathways that involve both?

Bob (38:45):

So every graduating student has a good place to go; and that's the work and the job of the community, not of the school system?

Anne (38:53):

I think that's exactly right. It is part of a community vision. And ultimately that's about, what do we want our young people to know and be able to do when they graduate from high school? If we are not all at the table, we, we can't get this done. Because it's not just on the back of a teacher, it's not just on the back of a principal. It's not just on the back of one high school. It's about the community that surrounds it, and the view and the aspirations that parents have for their young people, and ultimately everything that happens does honestly happen locally. So ultimately that ownership is seen in those communities, by the employers who step up and start from early in the eighth and ninth grade to say, I'll show up and I'll talk about what it is that we do. I'll give you a chance to come see what it is that we do. I'll provide externships for teachers. I'll do interviews for you.

Anne (40:41):

I will offer you many, many opportunities to scaffold your understanding of how what you're doing in a classroom applies in the real world. I'll help teachers understand and build a curriculum that actually is more forward thinking than Singer sewing machines. All of those things are just really owned fully in the communities where this has taken hold, where it's sustained. 

Bob (41:28):

Yeah. I mean, it's really about, just keep making the case that it's hard. A public education system working with this community has to prepare the next generation to lead that community. And that means they  have to be able to be employed in jobs that support families and that they feel a sense of connection to their community, and they want to give back. And that happens by the community helping them. And so I think we're heading there, and I really want to thank you, Anne, for a very insightful and ultimately hopeful conversation about how we can link what happens in school, so students really see the connection between that and the futures they want to have, and how their community understands that that's the future for all of us. So as we close out, are there any last words you'd like to share with the audience or let them know where they can learn more about what we discussed today?

Anne (42:25):

I think that we welcome every everyone to join the movement, [at] linkedlearningalliance.org. We have a ton of information about what it is that we're doing, and the communities that are doing this, the educators that are leading this work, the young people's voices that talk about its impact on them. So we want to expand understanding publicly of what can happen if you really connect these dots, connect the dots between college and career and college and high school and middle school and high school, and really put students at the center of it. So we just encourage folks to learn more. Let's look at where it's happening. Let's look at the evidence that it has, and let's just expand this sense of what's possible, because it's such an important moment in time to be able to do that for young people, for communities, and frankly for this nation.

Bob (43:30):

Yeah. Thank you so much for that. And to bring our discussion to a close, I would like to thank Anne again for sharing how high schools can be redesigned around the mission of providing all students with a strong and secure pathway from high school to the futures they seek: to make it a jumping-off point, not an end point. In a poll that was taken this fall, when high school students were asked what they wanted their high school to do for them, the greatest number said, prepare them for a career, but an equal number said, help them think critically. Some might see this is the difference between the sacred and the profane, but what the students are telling us is that to give them the future they want and to help them achieve it, we must create an educational experience that prepares them for both.

Before we let you go, we want to ask you to please subscribe to Designing Education, to stay up to date on all the revolutionary work happening in education. If you're enjoying the show, leave us a five star review. Also, please share the show with a friend or colleague or on social media. This has been Robert Balfanz from the Everyone Graduates Center and the Pathways to Adult Success project, thanking everyone for listening, and inviting you to listen to the other episodes in our Designing Education series, wherever you listen to your podcasts. Onward, and be well.