Ep. 40 "A (Not So) Secret Superpower" - Guest Debe Terhar (Part 2 of 2)

Navigating a child’s education is challenging for parents and teachers. Parents have the job of teaching their children values and character; teachers have the role of challenging children academically and broadening their view of the world. It’s not an easy balance. And today’s guest on The State of Education understands that. Debe Terhar advocates for the parent-teacher relationship and for the real focus of education: our children. Keep listening to learn more about how Debe helped improve education in her home state of Ohio and put children first!
 

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Transcript

ADAMS: I’ll just throw in personal experience here, because it may be helpful to someone who is listening—because we have these challenges all the time. A number of years ago, my wife and I moved into a community where we heard that the schools were great and so forth, so we said, “Ok, we’re going to enroll our kids” and one of our boys, in the early grades, and like in his first few days of school, [00:30] came from from school and he was frustrated and confused. 

What had happened was, the teacher asked a question—kind of an open question—and our child was very competitive and had his hand up, wanting to answer the question, and the teacher acknowledged him and he responded to the question based on the values he had been taught at home. 

And the teacher responded, “Well, no, that’s not really the answer we’re looking for here”[01:00] and then proceeded to, in a sense, give a different answer that tied in with what the curriculum was or whatever. And our child was frustrated, came home, and I could tell it was a problem. 

A lot of times, teachers are bound by policy things and mandates that are passed down to them. [01:30] They are required to teach certain things sometimes because there’s testing and measurements that the kids are supposed to get. 

So when they’re doing that, whether they agree with it or not, then sometimes that creates a conflict within the child with what they’re being taught at home or someplace else. And in our case, I had a simple decision to make [02:00] as a dad.

 If I left the child where he was, I was leaving the child where he was literally being torn between “Who’s right—my parents or the teacher?” Well, we want our children to respect adults, okay? And when they’re in a conflict like that, somebody's going to win, somebody’s going to lose—and that is not a healthy place to have a child in. [02:30]

And so we decided to take the child out of the school and put them in another location where we knew that school would correspond to our values at home. And so this is an issue that happens everyday across this country and to families over and over again. And that’s where parents have to step in and make the hard decisions, but we cannot let our children be torn. 

And I think we also need to work on policies and things, so that [03:00] our teachers are not placed in a position like that where they are adding to that conflict. 

TERHAR: I agree 100%. The role of a teacher is not to insist on your take on an issue. It’s to facilitate the conversation of, “Well, you could consider this too.” It’s part of the learning process. [03:30] And then you can discern for yourself what is true and what is not. And if you’re given that option, then you can go home to mom and dad and say, “Well, I said this, and the other thing was this—what do you think about that, Mom and Dad?” Well, then you can decide for yourself what’s best for you. 

But I think the idea that we’ve come to a point where there is an effort [04:00] to use a political agenda to indoctrinate our children is not good. 

ADAMS: That’s absolutely true. 

TERHAR: And it’s happening. It is happening. 

ADAMS: And unfortunately everything has become political these days. And in one sense it’s unavoidable, but in the other sense, it really should not be. There should be some things that [04:30] we should be able to unite around as people that are above politics and are ultimately for the good of our children. 

TERHAR: When I was on the state board (this speaks to what we were just talking about) we were looking at one of the testing companies to do the tests. And I was at a meeting [05:00] of state board presidents and vice presidents, in Washington, and the testing company came and they presented a question that was to be considered for highschool. And it was regarding the National Endowment for the Arts, and should funding be provided for the National Endowment of the Arts? 

And they listed three sources. Two were magazines and one was the Washington Post. And I looked at that question, [05:30] and it just was a red flag for me. And I couldn't help it, I just stood up and was like, “I’m gonna tell you one thing right now. If that question shows up on a test in the state of Ohio, I will do everything in my power to get your contract cancelled.” I said, “That can’t happen.” 

And the state of Texas stood up and stood up and he said, “I’m with Ohio.” And other states stood up too and said, “You can’t do that.” I said, “This is a political agenda here [06:00] that has no place in our school systems. That’s not what we should be doing.” 

ADAMS: Yeah. 

ADAMS: What were the most significant challenges faced by the board during your tenure?

TERHAR: For the board, what we were faced with, we rolled out a new teacher accountability model. We were asking teachers to do a lot more to become prepared for the classroom. 

There was a lot of pushback. They felt that it was asking too much of them—that they were already burdened with having to deal with [00:30] the children, now you want us to do extra work to prove that we’re good teachers?

So that was a difficult thing. We worked on the A-F report card. That was another big challenge. Our challenge with that was going from a system of, okay we’re an improving district or continuing improvement or we’re okay… It just didn’t work. We said that A-F makes it clear. That’s what everyone’s report car looks like [01:00] so we could do that at the state level. 

ADAMS: Yeah. 

TERHAR: It was very difficult to get people to understand. There was a lot of pushback from the districts on that. They didn’t want to have to explain it to the parents because parents were starting to find out that our school district isn’t quite as good as we thought it was. So that received a lot of pushback. 

ADAMS: It’s interesting—back in the day [01:30] when you and I were in school—it was A-F, okay? And C was considered average and F was a failure… and F was like 60% or something in that ballpark. In other words, if you didn’t get at least that many right, you failed! And that whole process has shifted so significantly [02:00] in many locations and it’s really an A-C. There is no D to F because we don’t fail anybody because it might not make them feel good…

TERHAR: It hurts their feelings.

ADAMS: ...or we just can’t keep them in the system and we gotta keep moving them through the system. And so the lowest grade you get is a C and so people that are actually failing miserably are getting a C and moving right on with the rest. [02:30]

I don’t know if parents know that that is such a huge disservice because we are rewarding failure from the standpoint of teachers and students. And all that does is reinforce [03:00] bad behavior or reinforce practices that are not serving their intended purposes. They’re not helping that student. In reality, they’re setting them back for the whole of their life. 

TERHAR: I look at this too, one of the other challenges we had was: we implemented the 3rd grade reading guarantee. I pushed for that so hard. [03:30] And I said, “You need to be sure that a child knows how to read by the end of third grade. Otherwise, you’re setting them up for failure. Because they’re not going to be able to read the stuff that they have in 4th and 5th grade, and then by 6th, 7th, and 8th grade, they’re done! They’ve had it. 

So I remember giving a speech up in Cleveland, to the new [04:00] local school board members—about 250 people in the room. And I finished my speech and this one lady raised her hand and she said, “I’m just really worried about that little 3rd grade girl who isn’t going to go on to 4th grade because she can’t pass the reading test. She’s just not going to feel good about herself not being able to go to fourth grade.” [04:30]

And I told her, “I will guarantee you that if you allow that little girl to go on to fourth grade not knowing how to read, she’s not going to feel good about herself for the rest of her life!” People just went berserk, they applauded…. Finally someone said it outloud. 

And I was the State Board President, I said, “That’s my gut feeling, we have the statistics [05:00] to prove it true. We base our prison population on the third grade reading scores. And it correlates. You got 30,000 kids who can’t read at third grade, and you end up with 30,000 prisoners. And that’s how they apply the numbers, and it correlates, and that’s just sad! It’s sad. 

So we don’t have to do it, and that goes back [05:30] to the early childhood piece. You get that early childhood piece in there and those numbers drop substantially And I think too, with the 3rd grade reading guarantee, the wonderful thing about that—for me—was that if a child is not on track for reading in the first grade, you set up a plan, and that child has that plan and doesn’t get off that plan until he’s on track.

Now if you end up at the end [06:00] of third grade, it is no surprise whether that child is going to pass that test or not. It comes as no surprise to the parents, the child, or the district.  So you’ve got to be able to be prepared for those students. 

ADAMS: How does the state board relate to the federal part of education—to the executive and legislative branches of state government and to local and regional school boards? Now I realize you’re talking from Ohio and this will vary somewhat from state to state, but in general, it will apply. 

TERHAR: Right. So, the state board of education really doesn’t have anything to do with the Federal Department of Education. Federal dollars [00:30] are passed through the state department of education, so that’s the only contact we have with the feds. The feds have their mandates, their testing requirements and all those other things that they bring down from the federal level. 

That all goes through the department and you have your bureaucrats at the department who handle all of those things. And that’s why it’s important for the State Board of Education to hire a very good Superintendent of Public Instruction! [01:00] Because that person is the one who implements all of these programs and plans and does the pass-through dollars. 

The executive branch drives its own priorities; we’re not a member of the executive branch. I worked very closely with governor Casick on Early Childhood and it was a fabulous thing, but it was not something where he directed what we did. [01:30] He worked closely with his appointees, and they brought things to the table which were considered. Quite often we would agree and quite often we wouldn’t, so it was a good thing. 

The board works with the legislature on education policy. I was very privileged to be married to a state legislator, who was in the legislature at the time, so I developed a very good repore [02:00] with the state legislators—both the House, my husband was in the Senate, and I worked very closely with the senators. And I still enjoy that today. I have a very close relationship with them today and we discuss education issues. 

Local and Regional Boards—we are a local-control state—so the local boards are in charge of the curriculum that they [02:30] provide for the students, of course that has to go along with the state mandates that must be followed. So I think it all works very nicely in Ohio. Regarding curriculum, we have a model curriculum that was developed by the Department of Education for Ohio, so it serves as a model for the district to look to. It’s not set in stone. It’s not [03:00] what they have to do, it’s just what you can do if you wish to do that. 

But it’s also the local level. They’re responsible for the materials that they purchase to provide instruction for the children. That really is the key. It’s the actual instructional materials that you present to a child that develops their education. So that’s where parents, in my mind, [03:30] come in—parents need to review the educational curriculum materials that their children are provided. 

They need to go through it with a fine-toothed comb because unfortunately there are so many things that are printed today that are inappropriate for children to be exposed to. And that’s just my feeling, but I’ve seen it. And you know [04:00] when it’s right and you know when it’s not. 

ADAMS: Yeah. 

ADAMS: So here’s a question for you: what specific accomplishments do you feel you had that made education better in Ohio because of your service? 

TERHAR: Well I did mention the third grade reading guarantee—I am very proud of that. When I was there—when I began—Early Childhood being my interest, of course, I had asked the department about the publicly funded [00:30] “slots”—slots for early childhood education. And the State was funding 5,000 children for early childhood. 

And I asked, “Well, how many children do we have who are of that age group—the 3 to 5 year olds?” “500,000” “And we’re funding 5,000—okay, we’ve got a little work to do!”

ADAMS: One percent! [01:00]

TERHAR: Yeah, whoop! I was very pleased that by the end of my four years we had tripled that—it was only 15,000 but I thought we had hit paydirt to be able to get 10,000 more children involved in publicly funded early education. 

The other thing was the A-F report card. I thought that was essential to make it clear to parents where their district is, how well their kids are doing, [01:30] and if they’re going to be prepared for college or for any other kind of secondary education. 

So those are the things I was most proud of—we have also implemented new graduation requirements and that was an uphill battle, but it was great. And then I think it was when my husband was in his last year in the senate in 2019, he was instrumental in [02:00] tweaking the graduation requirements for our kids, so I’m very pleased with what we did during the four years that I was on the board and I think we left a pretty good legacy. 

ADAMS: Well congratulations and thank you for the work you did there;I know that you are continuing your involvement with education. At the Noah Webster Educational Foundation, we promote Core Principles and Best Practices in Education. We focus on the roles of instruction, parents, government, faith and morality, and facilities. Do you have any specific thoughts you’d like to share on these points? 

TERHAR: I tell you what, Melvin, [00:30] every one of those aspects is a critical element that is essential to a prosperous society. And I think what you’re doing is fabulous! Every single one of them is important, not one of them is more important than the other, and it’s got to be a cohesive blend of all those things to make us successful as a country. 

And I think that’s what it comes [01:00] down to: we’ve got to be an educated nation to be able to compete in the global world. 

ADAMS: Yep. So, based on your experience and your ongoing commitment to improve education in this country, what would you say (now as closing remarks) to parents, educators, and legislators about things that need to be happening in education—or their involvement, [01:30] we should say? 

TERHAR: Well, their involvement is critical. I think we need to remember that the child is our focus, not a political agenda. And we need to provide the opportunity for them to be able to be contributing members to a society, and the way we do that is through education. 

They need to have the knowledge and skills [02:00] to provide for themselves and their families—no communities and society in general. And that’s what our role is. It’s not to be an activist, it’s not to be a social justice warrior, it’s to give a child a solid foundation that will help them be successful in life. 

ADAMS: Wow. Well thank you. We agree on those things [02:30] and I hope that parents—especially parents—but also educators and legislators… all of them carry such a significant role in the life and development of a child, whether they realize it or not …. 

TERHAR: Melvin, can I just say… ?

ADAMS: Sure! 

TERHAR: When you mentioned the teachers—I want to commend the teachers in the United States… 

ADAMS: Absolutely! [03:00]

TERHAR: … who have done a fabulous job in trying their very best to help children this year in the most difficult time possible.

ADMAS: Debe, thank you so much for talking to us today. Thank you for your work over the years to improve education. Hope you stay engaged, there’s still a lot of work to be done—together, we’re going to move this ball down the court. [03:30]

TERHAR: That sounds like a fabulous idea; I look forward to it! 

ADAMS: Excellent! Well thank you again for your time and thank you for speaking to us today. 

TERHAR: Thank you for having me, Melvin. Take care!