Ep. 50 "Exploring How to Champion School Choice in the US" - Guest Terrye Seckinger (Part 1 of 2)

It’s national school choice week in America. And today, we’re going to celebrate through a conversation with Terrye Seckinger. She has been a champion of school choice in her home state of South Carolina for years. Always caring for the wellbeing of youth, Terrye has served in multiple roles that directly impact the education and overall trajectory of young generations in her state. Today, she has lots of practical insight and advice to share with us about America’s need for school choice and academic accountability. Keep listening to learn what you can do to champion school choice too! 


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Transcript

ADAMS: Terry Campson Seckinger is a native of Chrleston, South Carolina and now lives in Mt. Pleasant. She is a graduate of Ashley Hall School in Charleston and Clempson University with a B.S. in Business Administration. She is married to R. Stan Seckinger; they have three sons, two daughters-in-law, and four grandchildren. 

While at Clempson, Terrye was a student athlete and co-founded Clempson’s Fellowship of Christian  Athletes with Wide-Receiver Malcome Marler and Defense-Back Gary Webb. It is now the largest FCA on any major college campus in the United States. 

In 1994, she served as chairman for an abstinence conference on adolescent sexuality for first lady Mary Wood Beasly—the first time in the state for such a conference. From 1995 to 2000,  she served as a member of South Carolina’s Board of Juvenile Parole. 

She also served as South Carolina’s 9th Judicial Circuit Governor’s Youth Council—a collaborative effort—to support at-risk youth with wrap-around services, enabling them to succeed in their communities and schools. 

She also served as a member of Governor Beasly’s Maternal Infant and Child Health Parenting Committee, was a member of a task force to revamp the South Carolina Department of Juvenile Justice, and served on Attorney General Condon’s commission on gang activity, and on Obscenity and Pornography and Internet Crimes vs. Children in South Carolina. 

In 1998, she became actively engaged in education as a charter education instructor and served on the Founding Parent Committee of Palmetto Christian Academy in Mt. Pleasant,  South Carolina. 

She has served on Charleston County’s School District Health Advisory Board, Charleston County’s Council appointee to The Charleston County Library Board, Served on South Carolina’s State Board of Education from 2003-2007. 

While on the board of education, she chaired the subcommittee on charter schools. From 2007-2009, she served on the Board of Visitors for Charleston Southern University. 

From 2008-2015, she served as an appointee by the speaker of the house to the South Carolina Statewide Public Charter School District Board, the Statewide Authority for Charter Public Schools in South Carolina, and on the advisory board to the South Carolina Association of Charter Schools. 

From 2015-present, she serves on  South Carolina’s Commission on Higher Education Board: a coordinating body for all public institutions of higher learning in the state. 

So Terrye, it’s a real honor to have you with us today. Thank you for your years of service to the state of South Carolina and to our country. We’re eager to tap into your experience and your knowledge. 

SECKINGER: Melvin, it’s a privilege to be here and connecting with  the Noah Webster Foundation. You all are doing wonderful work for the country and it’s just a privilege, so thank you. 

ADAMS: So let’s jump into some questions. Let’s start with this one: how did you become a member of the State School Board and later a Commissioner of Education in South Carolina—and really, here’s a big part of that—why did you do it? 

SECKINGER: Well, I have been involved in politics in our state for a long time. My father served in the house, he was a lawyer. My brother serves in the senate and was in the house prior to  [that]. He was also a policy advisor to one of our governors. 

And when gubernatorial candidates win, they have the opportunity to ask—they have one appointment on our state board. State boards are appointed either by judicial circuit or judicial districts, so we have a 17-member board. 16 of those are the judicial circuits or districts and one is the governor’s appointee. 

And I knew this governor, since college,  and he knew that I had been involved—my husband and I—in starting a Christian School: Palmetto Christian Academy here in Mt. Pleasant, South Carolina. So, he called and asked me to serve on the state board. And I had been familiar with boards, I was asked by a previous governor to serve on the Board of Juvenile Parole—and that was the biggest education I ever had, serving on that. 

So I had already learned about how boards work  and that they’re policy shops, they’re not operational shops, and had a template understanding of state government… and so that’s how I was appointed to the board, and the governor’s appointee doesn’t have to go through betting or anything else, so I was placed on the board for a 4-year tenure of his gubernatorial-ship. 

It was a very strong eye-opener for me, having started a Christian School, to be involved with the public schools.  And so that’s how I became involved. Originally, just being involved in politics and knowing people that are players on the stage at the state level—the legislator and the executive branch—is very important when you want to place yourself in nomination, and when people are thinking about who they should nominate, they will possibly think of you. 

ADAMS: So it’s the same thing true of your appointment right now as commissioner? 

SECKINGER: That’s very true. As a matter of fact, my commission appointment is from our state legislative delegation in the first congressional district—so it’s beyond Charleston county; it’s Charleston and Birkland County—and my brother is in that legislative delegation; they didn’t even notify him until after I was approved for appointment because I knew so many people and they knew me and they knew that my background  was in education, and so that’s how my appointment came to be. And the governor affirms the appointments that come through the judicial district. 

ADAMS: So as a follow-up question (you said you’ve been involved in education; that’s your background) so how would you define education? And what role do you think that government oversight should have in it? 

SECKINGER: Melvin, education to me is pursuit of knowledge through the skill of learning. And it’s the development of character, as well as the appreciation of freedom, through the development of personal responsibility. That’s what, really,  the mantra of Americanism is all about. It’s understanding and the freedom to be responsible. And so to me, that’s what education is.

The role of government is very unique in education. It’s state driven—so state government—but the government has a very strong interest in educating its population of the state for the economy. To drive the state’s economy. Therefore, there’s a compelling interest in the states to have public education. Now, public education has to be paid for by tax dollars, so we are all stakeholders in our public education system in every single state.

But that does not mean that we can’t have private schools and other schools. The issue, I think, in today’s understanding of public education  is a one-size-fits-all, and that— I have seen through starting a charter school system in the state—is not the case. One size does not fit all.

Can you imagine prepaying a certain amount of money to walk into a store when you have four children and you have the opportunity to buy one item of education for all four of your children, who are very different? 

That’s what we’re doing in our states. One size does not fit all. And there’s a monopoly in education because there’s a sense that the state needs to control it, the state needs to release it to allow the marketplace to control it. 

And different states have different emphasis. We’re a manufacturing state; we’re starting to be a cyber-security state, and other states don’t have that interest. And that’s ok because we’re a confederation of states.

And so there is a compelling interest for public education; public education will always be there and it’s important to make sure that we are good stewards of public education to make sure that it is as smart and sharp and ready to truly educate, not indoctrinate, our children. 

ADAMS: So I think what I'm hearing you say is that the role of the state, or the role of the government, is to ensure that the workforce needs  are met so that the state, the communities, the economy, and the society can flourish. It’s about equipping citizens to be productive in their society and culture, particularly in—not just, but also—the workforce. 

But what I’m hearing you say is that too often that is a monopoly  focus, but you believe it can be improved by turning it loose and empowering more options in education, so to speak—free markets. 

SECKINGER: Absolutely. We need vocational schools, we need special needs schools, we need universities that award degrees, we need various emphasis in our K12 schools. Because, y’know what? We’re not robatrons,  we’re people, and we all have different interests and we all have different acumens. 

There are people that don’t want to go to college, they want to go to a trade school: we need good trade schools. So, years ago when I was on the State Board of Education, we got rid of most of our trade schools because everyone was being pushed to college. And that was so wrong. 

So what happened? A lot of those folks bailed out of the K12 schools, didn’t graduate from high school, and went on to try and be an electrician when they didn’t know where to go, or be a plumber…  Those folks are sharp, they’re smart, they run their own businesses, and they’re needed in the country. So a one-size-fits-all never works. 

ADAMS: Yeah. 

ADAMS: Generally speaking, what is the role and responsibility of an education commissioner and the State School Board? 

SECKINGER: Well, I think this role is pretty similar to all states. In public education there tends to be a cookie-cutter situation, where you go to another state and it’s so very similar. The organizational structure is the same. 

The superintendent is elected state-wide and so that’s a pretty strong position. In our state, actually I’d think in most states, it’s a constitutional office just like the governor [or] attorney general. 

So the Superintendent is the chairman of the State Board of Education, and the State Board adopts policies for minimal education standards in our state. Minimal standards. And it’s interesting that those minimal  standards, sometimes in the field, become maximum standards. And that’s unfortunate. 

We approve budget requests for all the state agencies and entities that deal with public education. For instance, the colleges of education who are training our teachers. We govern ourselves; we have committees where we study different things… academic standards. Anything  from things like vendors that have to deal with the state… so we police ourselves. 

We grant teaching certificates, so we’re the authority that grants teachers their license to teach. But on the flip side of that, we also hear cases where teachers have done incredibly inappropriate and absolutely illegal things, and some of these teachers were sitting over the department of corrections when we were hearing their case. 

And so we oversee and manage the teacher workforce in the state. Our state, like I would think most states have, [has] a great teacher shortage. Teachers are really uberly managed at their schools, I don’t believe they’re as respected as they should be, and the pay is not as rigorous as it should be, at least for our state. 

And so we have a massive teacher shortage in our state. Last year, we were short 550 teachers on the first day of school. So can you imagine sending your child, with your tax dollars, into a school where there’s no teacher in the classroom? 

So that is a problem and I think it has internal issues that could solve those problems. Overregulation, lack of letting teachers really soar with their strengths, putting them in subject areas where they might not be comfortable because there are teacher shortages… things like that are kind of business items that really do impact teacher retention. 

The last thing we do is very important, and that’s textbook adoptions. This has become a very complicated, sort of colluded situation because textbook adoption companies have to send out  the published books to everyone on the adoptive list—and they do this countrywide, not just my state; it’s usually the largest textbook companies. 

The smaller textbook corporations really don’t have the money to do all of that, but yet, they’re very good in their content. So immediately, we’re leaving off that part of the marketplace. 

And then, the textbooks are reviewed, they’re adopted.  And there is a leeway that our state can… if three districts ask for, I will say, a “minor” textbook (which is really not true, but it’s a minor player because it’s not as big as the McGraw Hills and Nelson Publishing and all that) If three districts approve that textbook, it can be adopted free of charge  to any other district in the state. 

And that is where it’s really important: textbooks adopted by the state are offered free of charge to the district. Of course “cash-strapped” districts will take the free-of-charge textbooks. 

I’ve been on several textbook adoption review committees—had the privilege of doing that, working with some very sharp professionals, but also seeing some horror stories in terms of our textbooks. 

The other thing I’m concerned about is this, Melvin: [05:00] when states adopt, say, a math curriculum, they might adopt an AP curricula, maybe a couple of general ed math curricula, and then they adopt curricula that really doesn’t have all of the components needed for schools that they perceive to be slow learners or rural schools… 

It is totally unfair to those students. Can you imagine getting 4/5ths of your math classes in one school year  then having to jump to the next level? 

When you don’t have all of the material, you’re not going to have all of the content knowledge you need to pursue and excel. And so that’s a real concern that actually happens in this whole process. But textbook adoption is very important.  

ADAMS So what type of people, I mean their backgrounds or professions, etcetera, make up the board there in South Carolina from your experience? And should people seek to serve? What advice would you give to a person listening who is considering that? 

SECKINGER: That is a great question! I would have never dreamed I would be on the state board of education. There really are no qualifications for individuals to serve. It is the choice of either the governor,  or the legislative delegations in your respective area. 
 
If I wanted to be on the state board of education and pursue this—which we desperately need really good minds—understand the state, understand the needs of the schools and want to improve them and be an asset. 

Really to get to know your legislators. I’ve been involved in our republican party for a long, long time and know all of my delegation and they call me when they have needs and I call them when I have questions and it’s a great relationship. 

When I see things in state government that I’m very concerned about, I’ll shoot an email to them as well. It’s very important that people get involved with a party, get to know their legislators, get to know their governor. 

These lawmakers really depend on folks in the community that are really in the know.  There are various backgrounds to my board: business people, folks who have been on a local school board, myself who had been on the juvenile parole board—of course, we do school in juvenile prison—and starting a school. 

And so there’s really not a qualification in terms of do you have to be a college grad? Do you have to be a P.h.D? or whatever … It really is pretty common sense stuff. One of the things that I think is very important if somebody wants to be on the board—now with the computer age that we have—I would recommend that you go to your state board meeting via computer. 

They’re all on the web; take a look at some of those meetings and see how they flow. It's important that people understand Robert’s Rules of Order, which is the standard for all public meetings, so you can get that book or you can just observe. One thing that’s important, Melvin, is these boards are policy boards, they’re not operational boards. 

When you go to the local school boards and you observe their meetings, the board really wants to get into the operational shop of the superintendent. You can’t hold a superintendent accountable if you try and get in their business. 

Policy drives the operations of any organization. So if you can learn how to  enact policy, which is what boards do, it will help drive the proper operational result that you want. 

And so I would definitely recommend tuning into some of your local school boards or even going; it’ll be surprising, entertaining, and hopefully enlightening. And then look at the school board. And talk with your lawmakers. 

The school board is pretty tightly managed, and when there’s an opening you serve one term and then you must leave the board. When there’s an opening and you’re interested, let your lawmaker know. They’re looking for people and if you’re interested, they’ll be interested in you. 

ADAMS: What are the various types of educational choice found in South Carolina and are there any that particularly excite you with their values and opportunities to students and parents, educators, and the community? 

SECKINGER: There is—I’m so glad you asked that question—and it's charter schools. I had the privilege of serving on the inaugural charter school board, but in our state it took us two sessions to overcome the objections from the traditional education sector to have charter public schools. These were public schools that are free of charge, they are growing in number faster than we can manage it, almost. 

Charter schools are public schools that must keep or make academic gains in order to stay open. They are public schools with accountability.

ADAMS: What a novel idea. 

SECKINGER: Right. I don’t know who would not want that. And also they are not run by the state board of education; each charter school has its own independent board, and they have a ten-year charter rotation and so at the end of that ten years, they must have met or exceeded their academic gains from their previous decade. 

So we are celebrating  two decades of chartering in South Carolina, and we have absolutely wonderful schools. People are scrambling to get into charters. 

I remember an African-American woman who came to the state board of education, and her charter school had a lottery—which most charter schools do for enrollment—and her fourth grader missed the lottery and she just wept and I just wept with her. 

It’s a hope to get out of a possible failing  public school and so charters are wildly successful and in South Carolina, we have made the national AP honor roll for drastically narrowing the socio-economic and educational deficits of lower income people. 

The charter schools in South Carolina are so diverse and they each are kind of thematic; we have performing arts schools, we have technology schools, the best  performing elementary school is a dual-language Mandrin-English school and those children are incredibly excelling. 

We have Montessori schools, K12 Montessori schools, we have dual credit offerings—now this is very unique and it makes so much business sense. We have a strong two-year technical system in our state, 16 technical schools which my board oversees, and the K12 schools partner with those tech schools so that when a child graduates, they not only graduate with a high school diploma, but with an A.S. degree! 

And this is a very unique thing, Melvin, because, human nature—children that have never been to college, their family’s never been to college—they think it’s some strange bird in the sky and they really don’t know what college is all about, and they’re pretty intimidated. 

A dual enrollment school will enable  that child who has the acumen and the desire to go and do whatever… be an x-ray tech: you’ve gotta have courses for that—they are experiencing college in high school, so they are no longer intimidated, their family is no longer intimidated and others will go to the local tech school because of that. It’s a tremendous growth opportunity and expansion of the psyche of getting people out of their box, and that’s a tremendous opportunity. 

We also have schools that educate students with disabilities. They need a unique setting, they shouldn’t be mainstreamed in our traditional schools; it’s not fair to them, it’s not fair to the students that aren’t in need of disability help. 

Charter schools in their relationship with the state, like I said, they must maintain or increase academic gains, or they’re not renewed. Most people think well, nobody’s going to really not renew a charter school… 

We have actually not renewed charter schools when they don’t perform—they must perform, it’s a mandate from the state—and so we have closed charter schools down, and I think that is a strong testament of the rigor of these charter schools. 

When you require academic performance, you’re gonna get it. See our public schools don’t...there’s no requirement for academic… they’re just there. They’re there as a provision because the state needs to provide  public education, but we need to have some standards. 

My wish would be that we would flip the systems, and that our predominant schools would be charter schools, and the charter schools would become the public schools because our system would be accountable. We could close schools that don’t perform; that would be a very innovative, systemic-change idea. 

ADAMS: Yeah.