Episode 36: When You Have an Affair… and Still Become Friends With Your Ex

Support, tools & coaching for stepmums: https://stepmumspace.com

Our second male guest on Stepmum Space is Tom Nash, known online as @mrdivorcecoachuk — and his story is truly one of a kind.

Tom shares his journey from marriage, to an affair, to separation, to building a new relationship and ultimately creating a functional, respectful, genuinely friendly blended family with his ex-wife and her new partner… who also happens to be his current partner’s ex.
(Yes — you may need a pen and paper to map this one out!)

In this refreshingly honest conversation, Tom talks openly about:

• navigating separation after infidelity
• co-parenting when emotions are raw
• building trust again — with yourself and others
• blending families in a way that actually works long-term
• why he’s such a strong advocate for dads showing up as equal parents, not just the “fun ones”
• what helps couples communicate better during separation and recoupling
• how to move from conflict to collaboration with an ex

Tom brings both his personal story and his professional insight as a divorce coach to this conversation, offering practical, grounded advice for anyone navigating blended family life — from stepmums to dads to co-parents.

A fascinating, honest, surprisingly uplifting conversation about accountability, repair, and what’s possible when adults put the children first.

If You Need Support
Book a free intro coaching call: https://stepmumspace.com/booking

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Instagram: @stepmumspace

Keywords: blended family after affair, co-parenting after infidelity, amicable ex relationship, dad as equal parent, high conflict separation help, stepmum support, divorce coach advice, rebuilding trust after affair, blended family dynamics, stepmum podcast

Healthy blended families are possible — and this episode shows how.

Transcript

Katie South: 0:01

Hello, I'm Katie, and this is Stepmum Space, the judgment free zone, where we talk candidly about the fairy tales and scary tales of Stepmum Life. So whether you've been a Stepmum for years, you're just starting out, or you want to understand the Stepmum in your life a little bit better, this is the place for you. Now before we get into this week's episode, I wanted to give a special shout out to all our stepmum spacers in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and anywhere else that has just had Mother's Day. I hope you are appreciated and recognised for all that you do, and know that your Stepmum sisters in the UK are sending all a love. It's just crazy how many of us across the world are going through the same stuff. If you want to connect online with other women going through the same thing as you are, you can do so via the forum at stepmumspace.com. It's free to join, you can sign up anonymously or with your real name, and it is a truly judgment-free zone for you to share whatever's going on in your world, and perhaps we can all get together and support each other. You can find it at www.stepmumspace.com and click on forum. Now, today we have our second ever male guest. So without further ado, let's get into the show. Today I am so excited to welcome Tom Nash, aka Mr. Divorce Coach. Tom is a child of divorced parents, so he grew up in a step family, and then he has subsequently married, divorced, and set up his own STEP family. So he knows firsthand the roller coaster of emotions and practical challenges we all go through on this journey. Tom's also a coach. He works with people um around this topic, and I am so excited to talk to him today. So, Tom, welcome.

Tom Nash: 1:58

Thank you very much. Lovely to be here.

Katie South: 2:00

How are you doing today?

Tom Nash: 2:02

Very, very well. I've done my school run. I've got my dog walking, I've met some clients and very busy, but I'm good.

Katie South: 2:09

Great. So look, a divorce coach, what's that?

Tom Nash: 2:12

Yeah, a new concept somewhat in the UK still. Divorce coaching is uh one of the kind of what I call the kind of the triad of support that someone going through a divorce or relationship breakdown separation needs. Um, of course, if you're going through divorce and things like that, you need legal support, whether it be mediation, solicitor, etc., you need financial support from financial planners, IFAs, pension specialists, etc. But the really important part that unfortunately, again, myself included did this many years ago from own divorce, the bit that we tend to forget until some point after or when things are going really, really horribly wrong, is the reality, the emotional side of it, how it's impacting our lives on a daily basis, our mindset, our focus at work, our practicalities around communication with our ex, particularly where children are involved. So, my role is to effectively be that partner with you, your thinking partner, help you unpack everything, understand it, process the emotions, not remove them immediately, but unpack them all, understand what they're how they're teamed to you, so you can learn to regulate them, you can start to make more congruent decisions and thought processes, rebuild your confidence, your self-esteem, and then look at the parts that we're actually playing, like the accountability piece, what we are bringing to the situation, and so we can start to look to ways to improve it. And ultimately, adorse coach is there to help you get through this process in the least scathingly way possible and help you work towards a more positive outcome.

Katie South: 3:42

Sounds so good. And I think it's fantastic that there are more of these offerings available to people because we know so many people get divorced and you kind of bury your head in the sand, go through the practicalities, and then you might wake up in five years later and think, you know, what the hell happened to me along the way?

Tom Nash: 3:58

Yeah, yeah. I get I get that comment all the time when I say I'm a divorce coach. I get one or two comments. I hope I never need to speak to you again, or where were you five years ago?

Katie South: 4:06

Yeah. And I should say for the ladies listening who are in those happy relationships, Tom isn't here necessarily to talk about your divorce, but one of the reasons why I was really keen, well, actually, there's a few reasons why I was really keen to have you on the show. Firstly, because we know a lot of the women who listen to the podcast are with men who are separated but may still be married. So it's quite challenging for a woman in a stepmum role. Well, the irony, I don't know if you just heard my phone ping. That was my ex-husband texting me. But yeah, so a lot of the women that are listening are are with somebody who may be going through a divorce, and that can be an added pressure for the new partners. And secondly, Tom, because your parents separated when you were young, so you grew up in a stepfamily and subsequently formed one yourself. So why don't you share a little bit about your sort of personal journey and what brought you here in your family?

Tom Nash: 4:58

Yeah, cool. Um my parents separated when I was quite young. Um, and I grew up with my dad, my two sisters, and my then later stepmum. Um, got three old stepbrothers, uh, and then my dad and my stepmom had one together. So a blended family in 1986, 1987, it it didn't exist, or it wasn't called a blended family then. We were just the Waltons of our village because there was just so many of us. But obviously, having grown up in that environment, really happy childhood, love having like a huge array of different personalities in my siblings and my family, uh, and we're a real close unit. Uh I didn't particularly know or have much contact with my biological mum when I was quite young, but then went looking for it when I was a little bit older, late teens, etc. Fast forward a few years, I meet someone, fall in love as you do. So we meet in the summer of um 2005. We get engaged that December. Um, she's from Italian Heritage, and it's when you meet the parents, you meet them because you get married. We were married by the following September. And then we had those first early years of both the great honeymoon period, but also learning to figure each other out because we didn't live together before we got married. We went to two years until we had having children. Uh, and we had our first, Will, 2009, and then Sam, our second, in 2012. I spent around 15 or so years in a city in London, uh, working in the recruitment industry, building my career path, doing the thing I was thought I was supposed to be doing, or the thing I'm told by society to be doing.

Katie South: 6:32

That classic.

Tom Nash: 6:34

Yeah, yeah, climb the ladder, get the house, get the car, do have a lifestyle, etc.

Katie South: 6:40

And then you kind of go, oh, okay, I've got this, then not sure I'm that happy.

Tom Nash: 6:46

Well, yeah, it's uh what's the void? Actually, what are you what are you doing it for? Myself and and my wife equally, for different reasons, weren't very happy on a marriage. We didn't necessarily vocalise it in the right way to for the other one to understand it and really have those kind of more grown-up conversations. Admittedly, I'm said actually more so from my part, admittedly. I think that's one of the things about growth, like you've got to own your stuff, right? Um, I was drinking too much um because I was unhappy. Um, I was doing stupid hours in the city, uh, avoidance tactics, etc. Uh I was because of the hours and etc. I was for all intents and purposes a weekend dad, if you like. Um, but that's not to say that I wasn't a present or engaged dad, right? I am and always have been and always will be like a completely devoted dad. I'm a big kid myself, but almost 40, almost 40 years old. Um, but I absolutely love kids, uh uh nieces, nephews, etc. Um, but it was at that point that there was a breakdown in communication, as you tend to find in a relationship when it's uh when it's starting to break down. That actually stems from, as I now understand it, from all my training as coaching and psychology, etc. It was that that stems from a breakdown in connection, um, not being able to communicate. I met someone else, I fell in love, we did have an affair. We've been through me and Max Wife, we went through the bitterness of courts, lawyers horribly emoused to each other, pretending that we know what we're talking about, the one-upmanship, thinking you know better. It it all came to a head, and at some point something had to give. And it would have been what we separated in the March 2017, we were divorced by the following February, and finances sorted. April 2018, we went into trial arrangement order proceedings. I had reevaluated, I'd stopped, looked at myself, and said, Hey, what the hell are you doing? What were you actually doing all that other stuff for? And actually, it's because I wanted to have the nice life for my kids. But what's underneath that? Because I care about my kids. Actually, what I wanted to do, because I hated working in the city, I hated the hours that I did, I did not like, I was good at what I did, but I didn't like what I did. What I actually wanted to do was take my kids to school, was helping with the homework. Okay, meant Googling it because I don't usually know the answer.

Katie South: 9:08

Oh, I hear you. I'm like, year eight maths is too much for me.

Tom Nash: 9:12

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, Google's a fantastic teacher for parents when they help to make this with their homework. But yeah, I I I wanted to be there. I wanted to make dinner, iron uniform, right, and be involved. Uh, I I didn't want to be resided to the weekend McDonald's dad pile. I wanted to have conversations with them, learn about their day, reward them, reprimand them, give them life lessons, make memories, etc. And it was at that point I just finished retraining and coaching and various things because I was going to go and use these skills in the corporate world. Uh, my partner said, Why don't you use these skills to go and help other people going through divorce or separation, particularly other men. Let's try and change the notion of men don't talk because they do. Sometimes they just don't know where or who or how to go about it. I had a counsellor when I was going for my divorce, she was fantastic, but that was dealing with a lot of looking at past and history experience. What I actually needed, more so, I needed to take all that background but understand how do I apply that now? How can I be better? What am I doing that's not helping this situation? How am I more accountable? What support do I need? What resource? I needed, I didn't know to need to know the why, I needed to know the solution-based or the option-based answers to those questions. And that that kind of led us to become Mr. Divorce Coach.

Katie South: 10:35

Yeah, and I think there's so much value to be had in kind of saying, okay, where am I today? Where do I want to go? What's holding me back? All those big questions. And that's a lot of the things that I work with stepmums on is that type of area because you know, counseling and therapies are brilliant and they definitely have their place. But I think speaking from my own personal experience, I was kind of like, okay, I sit on this couch every week in counseling, and then I go, Yeah, and what? And what? So I know when I went through coaching myself, I found it very powerful at sort of mapping out my own future and taking back a bit of that control that I think so often we feel we don't have. So I'm interested. I mean, your story is incredible, and there's a slight chunk that we missed, and I know there'll be women listening who get who kind of say, yeah, okay, so he had an affair with somebody, and then he got divorced from his wife. And it sounds like that was quite tricky because there was court involved, but the three of them they must get on okay now. So, how how did you manage that? Because a lot of what I hear is women who are like stuck in conflict and they might not want to be best friends with the ex, and their husband might not want to be best friends with the ex, but they they want to have a constructive relationship. How did you navigate the minefield and get there?

Tom Nash: 13:02

Well, to give that to get to that point, give that question an answer. You kind of there's a last little bit of context actually. My ex-wife's boyfriend is my girlfriend's ex-husband.

Katie South: 13:13

Okay.

Tom Nash: 13:13

So we all kind of swapped around. I obviously have I have two children, my two boys. Well, I have four children, as far as I'm saying. We'll get to that when we get into the step-parenting bit. I have two biological children from my first marriage. I have two amazing bonus children. I prefer the term bonus as opposed to step. Two amazing bonus children. We have this little melting pot of four kids that transition between two homes. And in each home is the alternate set of bio and non-bio parents. So we had to find a way to work together. It was so difficult, so acrimonious, all the outside influences that everybody gets. What it really came down to is starting to step out of your own way, stop creating your own obstacles, look at that reflective piece that I was just saying I love about coaching. What am I doing that I could do differently? And it was also, but how do you put that into context of a situation? And it's looking for any opportunity to open the door a little, be vulnerable again, looking for a new form of trust, being the one that extends out that olive branch, whatever cliche you want to use. People say this to me all the time, yeah, but now you will get on. But we didn't instantly. Someone had to start doing something differently, and each of us started doing our own things differently. But again, it's someone has to lead by example, someone has to start recognizing there's a bit of a change, a bit of a difference, and it's real simple stuff. One example that I I always use is the other dad in Scenario, lucky guy, I think he's brilliant, really good friend of mine now. He was going through a really challenging time over something at one point. And I remember clear as day, I was me and my partner were making dinner. He was dropping off his two at our house. My two boys were already there. And I turned to my partner and said, Look, obviously it's her ex-husband. I said, Look, go outside, invite me for dinner, be you, and don't take no for an answer. So she goes out and she says, like, come in for dinner, park the truck, and come in. And he's said something along the lines of no, it will be weird. And verbatim, my loving partner's response to us, it only has to be weird if you make it weird. So he pops up and he comes in, and there's me, my partner, her ex-husband, not my ex-wife at this point, and the four kids. And it was the weirdest dinner we ever had. But get through the awkwardness. Anything worth doing isn't easy. Yeah, it's gonna be difficult. It's good, you're gonna have to risk putting yourself out there, and not just once. You've got to be consistent with this. And then, like with my ex-wife, I would consistently, when she would drop the boys off, I would consistently always say, Do you want to come for a coffee? Do you want to come for a coffee? Do you want to come for a coffee? Whether it was the first two or it was the first 35 times of saying no, or and again, because of her own fears and her own worries of being vulnerable and being exposed to what that might look like and coming to my new home for the first time and what that might feel like. I completely get that. But again, at some point she had to do her own bit of going, you know what? Why not? What's the worst that could happen? And actually, what you can then start to create is an environment longer term where actually your kids get to see you in the same space. They become more safe and comfortable to be able to talk about the other parent in your home and talk about the time in their mommies or daddies, right? They need to see through actions and behaviors, not you just saying something nice about mum or by people saying, but I never slag off the other parent. Okay, but that's great, but also you're not doing anything positive. So what are the kids learning?

Katie South: 16:38

Yeah, and I mean that's one of my pet peeves, I guess, is when biological mothers will say, Oh, but I've I've tried to encourage them to have a relationship with their dad. And you think, well, you might have said that three or four times, but in every other action and every other eye roll and every other tut, comment, little you know, niggle, you are teaching your kids something about their dad, and that that is hard. So I I I really sign up to that idea of continually reinforcing through actions and behaviours. Tom, how old were your sort of four kids at this point when you were in the beginning of bringing your families together?

Tom Nash: 17:23

Uh so they would have been youngest would have been five. So next one up would have been seven, just about, next one eight, eldest eleven, just turned eleven.

Katie South: 17:35

And did the four of them go together as a four? Were they always at the same house, the children?

Tom Nash: 17:40

Not in the immediate earlier stages. They were uh sometimes on and off, yes and no. So myself and my partner, we moved in together quite quickly. So when they were with us, they were, but even that, that then that we there was a disparity. So my partner and her ex went to an immediate 50-50 the day that they separated. And again, just for context, I would actually say co-parenting is a 100-100, it's not 50-50. That's schedules, that's not about co-co-parenting. But for the purposes of dates and where the kids are, they were on a 50-50. Myself and my ex-wife were immediately on an alternate weekend. And in the very early stages, a weekend, as, and I say this very respectfully to her, as I was allowed at the time, was Saturday morning about 10 a.m. till Sunday, 3, 4 p.m., not including the time that they're sleeping, so less than 36 hours, for which 10 of them they're asleep. So there was a disparity that caused a lot of problems, a lot of challenges for the parents and the adults, but also for the children. What you're getting is one set of kids who are there less frequent, so they're going, well, why do they get to stay? You've got the ones that are staying that are going, well, why do they get to go back? Because my other mum or other dad's at the other house. So do they love them, do they love them more? And it creates this disparity in the ranks. And that is not what we all in business terms talk about today: equality, diversity, inclusion. That is not creating any form of equality. That is not any form of inclusion, and you're not, and you're creating the the opposite of the diversity that you want to create, really. That caused a huge amount of problems and anguish for all the kids in, and it came out in many different forms, behaviourals, etc. That was a real dark time and really hard to navigate. You've got one set of kids that you're dropping off who are balling their eyes out because they want to stay and they don't want to go, not just because they maybe don't want to leave you the parent, but they also don't want to leave the other kids. They see they're growing this bond of this new sibling connection. And you've got another set that are also sitting there crying and say going, Well, why are they going back?

Katie South: 19:40

That's something that so many of the women I speak to battle with. And I think, you know, I see it in my own family. So my husband has two daughters from his first marriage. I have a son from my first marriage, and we have two little ones together. So we have two who are here all the time. And then, you know, my son, who's probably here more frequently than his girls. So it's very, very different in terms of who's coming when. And you know, my my little daughter said to her big sister the other day, Oh, are you having a sleepover at ours? And I was like, No, it's her house as well. Like, this is her other home. But it's very difficult for them to sort of get their head around it because if they're not there all the time, how does that work? And I think that that, how do you manage with children who are always in the home versus children who aren't always in the home? It's something loads of step stepmums do really struggle with. Have you got any tips?

Tom Nash: 20:37

Well, uh, what that also creates as well, the difficulty is about the behavioural shifts of the different rules and house operations and things that they need to do or don't do, draw wise, etc. It creates disparity there as well. What I would say is how could whoever's listening to this with you, how can you look at the part that you're playing and look at where can you create a more even balance? How do you make things more inclusive and engaging for them? How do you make this experience of them make it make them part of it? That it's not actually they're just being dragged along for the ride. How are they going to view this? What lessons are they going to take from it? What will they then put in place in their future relationships? How they parent? What can you do that could be better, right? And I get that that sounds easier said than done. But if we go back to do the consistency thing again of the olive branches, okay, so how can we find a more even cure of equality, whatever that might look like for any listeners' unique situations? How do we bring the other parties to the table? Because the other thing is, and I suppose we're going to get to it in a minute, is what's the stepparent's relationship here? And how do you make that inclusive and how do you do it respectfully? So I used to do something really simple. Every time, I'm gonna say counter dad, the dad on the other side, every time he would drop the kids off, I would always make a beeline for my stepkids when their dad's dropping them off. It wasn't Spanish Inquisition, I'm not interrogating them, it was about interest and respect. This person is one of the most important people in their world. It doesn't matter that he and I at the time did not get on and couldn't stand each other. It doesn't matter, it's important to them. So I would make a beeline for him when they come through the door. Hey guys, did you have a nice time at daddy's? Like, what did you do? Or I don't know if he's got a new car, or I know he's going for a job interview, or anything, or they're about to go on holiday. It doesn't matter what it is, like the product is irrelevant. It's about you showing the interest, that positive intention, nicely. I and I called him daddy. I have from day one, he's daddy. Like, oh, how's daddy? Oh, so he's got a new truck, that's cool, I like that. At the time, there was this seven-year-old little boy who his hero has just dropped him off. He's not gonna see him for two days or five days or he's out. What can I do to make him feel happier and more positive about the situation? How can I show him through action and behaviour what I do that makes him think your dad's a rock star, I know he's your hero, I think he's awesome too. Didn't matter, I didn't think it at the time. I do now because he's a lovely chap. But it wasn't about me, it was about the kids.

Katie South: 23:10

Yeah, and I think a lot of the women who listen to this show and and who I work with will say they will do that and they will constantly do that. But a lot of what's experienced is being undermined by the other household. So it it then kind of confuses the child, brings them back thinking really negatively, and that's hard.

Tom Nash: 23:30

Yeah, there is again, it's dependent on the unique the listener's unique experience, the relationship they have with their ex. So once you've got through a lot of the kind of more formalities and legalities, and you're starting to learn to live within this world, start to think about how can you get into let's say the business of co-parenting, right? How can you make this a bit more formal? The other thing is nice to know about get through weirdness, get through walknesses like that dinner. Could you, hypothetically speaking, could you and your former spouse, former partner meet for 15 minutes for a coffee once a month with a preset agenda? Ideally, you probably need a bit longer, so if you can do it for an hour, great. How could you get to start instigating a new approach, going with a pre-agreed agenda of the topics that you need to talk about, about little Timmy's swim meet or whatever it has to be? Start creating the new form of normality. Can you then work that into a later stage of and it's so that you can start rebuilding that trust, learn to communicate better, set some boundaries, some rules and guidelines about what you do and don't say, like the inflammatory topics and conversations. Both coming with an open mind and consideration about what it is for the child, not your emotions, their emotions. Your anger, your upset, your hurt, your fears, your guilt as the parent. If you if your child is witnessing that, that emotion morphs, right? Your anger or sadness or upset, that becomes their anguish, their internalized self-resentment. When you speak derogatively about the other parent, even mildly undermining, like you said, that child internalizes it subconsciously, they know they're 50% mum, they're 50% dad. You play down the other parent, you're playing down 50% of them.

Katie South: 25:22

I think that's such a powerful thing to remember. I was reading something about this the other day, and it really made me stop and think because I'm lucky in that I have a good relationship with my ex-husband. We're nowhere near your levels of friendship, but we're pretty low conflict. And you know, when we do have conflict, which is inevitable in any relationship, right? And even your current spouse, we can get out of it pretty easily. But sometimes there will be things that I think, and I just have to like bite it and think, just don't say it, just don't say it in front of your child or say it to someone else, you know, a friend or something, because it is that thought. And then no matter how much you uh don't want to put your kids uh in a difficult position, we can do it inadvertently. Like, I I can talk about these things quite uh well with my son now, he's nearly 13. And he sort of said to me um the other day, we were chatting about it and I did a thing on GMB around uh can a stepmum be truly accepted? And and I said to him, So here's the question, what do you think? And he was like, Oh, interesting. And uh his dad is in a serious relationship, he doesn't call her his stepmom. But I said, you know, what about you and insert her name here? And he said, Yeah, he said, I just always felt really guilty, like about liking her, and I just felt like I was betraying you, and you'd never even said anything, you were always nice about her. But he said, and then we sat down one day, mum, and had a conversation. And you said, just because you like or love her, it doesn't mean that you're betraying me, or it doesn't mean that you love me any less. And he said, and then like everything changed. There is something like in there about having these conversations, and I guess all we can do is control our bit, our role in it. Yeah, you know, like we and I know for stepmums, this is a huge source of anxiety about what goes on in the other house, you know, what are the kids exposed to, what are they told, what are they allowed to do? Forget it, you can't do anything about it, and that's so hard.

Tom Nash: 27:31

Yeah, I mean, there's a whole host of things that like dads have the stepdads have a lot of the same thing, and the biodads when they're back at the other house, we all go through a lot of the same stuff just differently and have different approaches and thoughts and feelings, and that's what the emotion bit comes out. But no, you're right, you're you're absolutely right what you said about your son. There was nothing ever that was said or done that would make him feel he should feel guilty about loving in certain name, but they universally will because it's it's also the other thing is when you go for a relationship breakdown, separation, particularly with kids, they want to protect you. All children want in life is for their parents to be happy up until they hit teenagers, and then they just want to focus on themselves. I know that's and I say that with love.

Katie South: 28:11

Yeah, big big shout out to any stepmums of teens. We've got your back.

Tom Nash: 28:16

Well, now have a 17-year-old girl, soon to be a 14-year-old boy, soon to be 13-year-old boy, soon to be 11-year-old boys. So girls just coming out a bit, lovely, flourishing young woman, and we've got through some really horrible stages. Um, and now we've got three boys that are just crash coursing straight into the teenagers. But yeah, there is a whole host of things that they're going to go through. And again, it's that they want the parents to be happy, and again, part of that, they're also thinking, oh well, that they're not happy with each other, even again, if you're not vocalizing it, doing anything, purposely slacking off anything like that, even if you just stay new on the topic. But again, because they're not what they're not seeing as the positive interactions between a separating mum and dad, they want to protect both of you. So it's I want I kind of aligned to mum today. They get to dad, they're kind of aligned to dad. But what they're both doing is they're not purposely trying to do this. This is their version of trying to create a self-preservation for you, right? Trying to protect you. You have to remember when you weren't separated from force, when you still lived in this nuclear family. My kids used to do it, and I used to do it to my mum and dad. Five minutes before dinner. Can I have a chocolate bar? Dad would say, No, I go upstairs. Mum and dad says I can I can have a chocolate bar before dinner if you say it's okay. Right? They play us off on each other, right? That's a key.

Katie South: 29:32

So true, so true.

Tom Nash: 29:38

Right? That is only gonna massively amplify when you separate your divorce.

Katie South: 29:42

Yeah, yeah.

Tom Nash: 29:43

So it's they're one, they're protecting us, but two, they're still testing those boundaries, and it's this little quandary than trying to figure everything out. So it's up to us to lead that as hard and as painful and as challenging, as much as we we don't want to do it, we drag ourselves kicking and screaming to be the bigger person. What is it, Michelle Obama? If they go low, you go high.

Katie South: 30:02

Oh, yeah.

Tom Nash: 30:03

But again, so what am I doing? How can I do this better? You mentioned earlier about when you're talking with your son, and I mentioned about I always call the other dad, I always call him daddy. I have a bit of a saying about when it comes to co-parenting, not parallel parenting, I'm not talking about high conflict, I'm talking anything below medium and lower. And I I hope this doesn't come across my way, but I always say with co-parenting, there is no place for pronouns. When you start to refer to that other parent use of pronouns, it quite very often becomes in a negative connotation. You're not calling them daddy or mummy or even by name. He always does that. Did you see her? What happens to the kid? Yeah, looks at the floor, tone changes, shoulders drop. Yeah, I was like, I saw him. Or again, if they think that that's something that they have in common with mum, that's part of me that dad doesn't like dad doesn't like me. You're gonna then they're gonna internalize that and it's what they're taking from it. Um, like I said earlier, your emotions will morph when it comes into them and what they take on. So if you we call them daddy or you call them mummy, continue to do so. He's a right, he's a great. Co-parenting tip when it comes to the use of names and stuff. And this is real-world everyday life stuff. Ever been in a Tesla or a car that has Bluetooth technology? They talk to you, right? Just think if you changed your their name in your phone to say derogatory. That woman or he's a whatever. I've had this with clients who have said they were driving along the school run and a text message comes in and a car reads it to you and it says, That blah de blah person says I'll pick the kids up at poor. So the kids are sitting in the car going, Well, that's not very nice. I have them as daddy, I have them as mummy, right? Everybody's labelled. But yeah, just think about like what you're doing, what you're bringing to the table.

Katie South: 31:51

And I think as well, you know, that's very good advice. And I think we would all rationally and logically know that that's the correct thing to do. I think there'll be women listening, including myself, to be really honest, who have said and done things that they're not proud of, that they wouldn't do again, that they feel bad for. And I think nobody's a perfect parent, just like nobody's a perfect step parent. So forgive yourself and learn.

Speaker 1: 32:19

Yeah.

Katie South: 32:20

Because I know there'll be women listening who'll be like, oh god, but I said this once about her because I was, you know, I said this once about their mum because I was so frustrated about everything that had happened. And but ladies, gents, forgive yourself. We're all human and learn.

Tom Nash: 32:37

Go one step further from forgiving yourself. When you're forgiving yourself, and this is a great way to forgive yourself, to really put it in action and understand it. Think about the life lessons again that we're trying to teach our kids forgiveness, love, compassion, empathy, vulnerability, trust. Whilst forgiving yourself and in that process, acknowledge the fact again, situation and age of the child specific, think about your situation. But your kids need to learn that actually parents are wrong as well. If you've said or done something that you're not proud of, own it. There are times, and again, I've done things as well myself. I'll give you an example about a haircut type of thing in a minute. This happened years ago, and I had to go to my kids. Long story short, the kids, I was going to take the voice for a haircut. One of them said, Mummy says you can't do that. And I instantly went, Well, I can do what I bloody well want. I'm your father. And I just this is really early days before I knew better. I then had to catch myself, in all honesty and all fairness, it was actually my partner when I told her about it. She was like, No, you need to rectify this situation. So I firstly told my ex-wife and apologized to her that I had reacted in that way. Secondly, spoke to both my boys, showed some vulnerability, showed them that I am not infallible, but I learned from my mistakes and I rectify my mistakes. And that wasn't the right thing to do, and those are the reasons why it wasn't right, and I will try to be better in the future.

Speaker 1: 34:04

Yeah.

Tom Nash: 34:04

They now don't have to own that dad's pissed off with my dad doesn't like my mum shouldn't have said that, whatever it might be. I've gone fair cut go. I shouldn't react to that. And the bit that came out in the watch was my ex-wife was actually trying to do me a favor. What she was saying was, tell your dad not to take them to that bar because they're twice as much as that one. She was actually trying to do me a favor.

Katie South: 34:26

And that's the thing, isn't it? You know, and it's one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about changing the narrative of step-mums and biological mums, because there has for the longest time been so many negative connotations, much like divorce, you know. And actually, nobody gets married setting out to get divorced. But this is a fundamental fact of society, just like step families, blended families, bonus families, whatever you want to call them is. But we have to change that narrative of two people at war. You know, divorce doesn't have to be two people at war. It can be two people who realize their relationship isn't fit for purpose. And like, thank God we can get divorced. And likewise, step-mum and bio mum, you know, I'll often talk to women and we'll work out actually, there's just two quite vulnerable, hurting people underneath it all, you know, but somehow it's not okay to express that level of vulnerability. Do you find that with the people you work with?

Tom Nash: 35:21

Yeah, I mean, I I work with both men, women and couples. I mean, there is a whole host of that from a dad perspective, and those fears of another dad, another man, another male role model, teaching my son or my daughter, or walking her down the aisle or playing football with him, or whatever it might be. And I I did actually have someone say to me in the really early days, how are you gonna feel one day when my youngest he's a he's a he's like me, he's a hugger, he's an affectionate type of kid. And um, this person says to me, How are you gonna feel one day when so and so runs over and throws his arms around another guy that he sees as a deaf and a father figure? And I kind of like pause for a moment and was like, Can I just clarify the question? Are you asking if I'm going to be annoyed and angry and upset that someone else in the world loves my kid the way I do? Surely the more people that love and care for him, the further he'll go, but the more support he'll have. And actually, there are unique parts about whether it's bio or non-bio relationship with children, bio and non-bio children, that you should be forging. At the weekend, my youngest went with my partner to BM to go and do the shopping. And he asked, he was like, Oh, can I come with you? All right, in an ulterior motive, he wanted to stick a load of stuff in the trolley, but they but the point was they still did something by themselves, right? Yeah, it's really important that when you're step-parenting and you've got other kids, or you haven't, or you're blending the two families together, you've got to do the together stuff to find a bond. You still got to do the individual stuff. You would do this anyway, again, in a new traditional family. You would do you would go out for a meal or go on holiday together, you would also go and go to that kid's football or whatever it might be. You do the together things and you do the unique connection things, and there are things that are again, and as our children evolve, there are changes and interests and passions change. And there are things that I have in common with that kid and that kid and that kid and that kid, but they also then have an alternatively different interests that aren't mine that they have with that parent, that parent, or that parent. So actually, they've now got these lovely, unique relationships where all of their interests and passions get serviced by four different people.

Katie South: 37:34

And it's interesting because when you sort of said, actually, you said to the person who asked you, how are you gonna feel when your child hugs someone else? And you said, Oh, well, it sounded like you were saying, Well, the more people who love my kid, the better. I rationally see that, but I still think people struggle with it. And I'm curious to know whether you felt like that right from the beginning or whether that was something you worked on.

Tom Nash: 38:01

No, that's that's not to get all too kind of sciencey, that's neuroplasticity, that's rewiring your thought processes, doing the thing to make the change. You want to you like you want to bulk up, you have to lift the weights and do the work. You know, it doesn't just happen because you think it you want it, like you have to do the hard bit, and that is having to catch yourself, change the story, change whatever it might be. You have to work to become a climatized to it. Of course, I didn't want to go out like another guy going, oh, it's my young daddy. No, of course I didn't want that, but I also had to recognize that this is the situation that we are in, and I have a choice here. I can fight it, and I can get wound up about it, I can act out against it, or I could find some kind of peace to make it less negatively impactful. So I could get to a phase of you know what, I'm okay with it. I don't love it, I don't like it, but I don't hate it anymore, and it's not triggering or whatever you want to call it. Once you get to that bit, you can then start to appreciate the positives that come from it, which help you get to the stages that we're at, where actually it's great. And actually, now if they're around or we're over there, or whatever it might be, we're saying goodbye in whatever shape, shape, or form the kids are gonna be with us, and one of them hasn't said goodbye, and I'll be like, You haven't said goodbye to your other to your other daddy times or that you know, go give him a hug. I didn't used to do that, I used to look for where I could support, it's just looking at how would you like to show your kids that you can be a good human being? Yeah, how would you want them to act in that situation? I say when I'm working with parents, I'm working with a couple, or even an individual actually, and they're talking about co-parenting and blended families and step-parenting, and I will say forget the here and now co-parenting, right? Forget how do you become that step parent. Just go to future focus from there. How do you want to be a co-grandparent? How do you want to be an extended blended family? What would you like your kids to do if they end up in this situation in their own relationships?

Katie South: 40:21

And I think that's so powerful because you know, I've heard lots of friends of mine, as I'm sure you have, when they were getting married, kind of saying, Oh, but I can't, I really want to sit with my mum and my dad, but my they won't be on the same table together. And then I I would really like my stepmum, but my mum won't sit there if my stepmum's sitting there. And I remember really early on thinking, I really don't want my son and whoever he chooses to marry, if he chooses to get married, to have that on his list of things to worry about. I just want him to do whatever he wants to do, and that kind of big picture can massively help us, I think.

Tom Nash: 40:59

Yeah, no, absolutely. Because you it's it's intergenerational, it carries on for decades and it continues to filter out with every other child, grandchild, nephew, niece, etc. It just continues to expand. How do you want to live in this?

Katie South: 41:15

So, Tom, can we talk a little bit about Disney dadding? Because this is Disney dadding, because this is something that comes up time and time again, whereby dad, more often than not, has the kids less than he did when he was married. And as you said, a lot of dads won't want to be the weekend McDonald's dads, but they'll really want the kids to be happy at their house, so they'll do everything under the sun to try and make them happy. And we see this causing a lot of conflict with women because they'll kind of go, Oh, I don't recognise my husband. Who is this guy who's like fun and movies and let's do whatever you want, kids? If there are either men listening who are in that boat, and if they were really honest with themselves, thought, yeah, I am a bit Disney dad, or women who are with a guy who suddenly changes when his kids come over, what's your advice to either party?

Tom Nash: 42:10

What I would say is we kind of go back a little bit to what we were talking about earlier in terms of the disparity, right, of where the children are located in frequencies. If you're experiencing whether you are the Disney dad or whether it's your whether it's your former spouse, why? What's the motivation? Are they not having an equal amount of time? Is that because they need to change something, their workouts, whatever it might be? When you tend to find if someone is weekending kind of Disney dad, because they're trying to win back their affections and show whatever it might be. There's again, there's a multitude of reasons for this, and they're not all not they're not all the same for everyone. There's also various things of kind of them actually thinking they have maybe they have stepbacks and go, do you know what? Maybe I didn't play enough of a part. I want to be a bit better.

Speaker 1: 42:56

Yeah.

Tom Nash: 42:56

But at the moment, if they've only got the weekend, they only really have the opportunity to be a Disney dad because school uniforms are done, they don't maybe know much about their daily routine of their life, so they've got they're left with the cinema McDonald's and whatever. In some respects, that that's all they've got left. What I would actually say, and my this is more of a kind of societal-based question, is why is it still the case that dads are seen in a lesser value of a parenting hierarchy? Everybody in modern-day society is as far as I'm concerned, is completely in agreement in all forms of equality. Women in the boardroom, gender pay gap, all of this stuff completely agree with you. But you can't have that until you also have the opposite end of the spectrum of parenting equality. So if you want to remove and eradicate a weekend Disney dad, make him get some responsibility, make him disney uniforms, make him take him to school, let him actually live in a real life, right? Because actually he's going to be just as exhausted as mum is when she can't be Disney Mum at the weekend because she's knackered from doing everything. Let him do that. Like get some reality, get some reality check. The other part is a huge amount of fear. If you think about it in the context of, let's say, some traditional kind of cave people mentalities. We are society-wise, look at it anything, whether it's East Enders, Disney, whatever you want to look at. Dad will, the good dad. And you again, mums might see this all the time. I see posts on social media about how annoying it is, and I completely agree. When someone goes, they see a dad playing with their kid in the park. Oh, isn't he a great dad? No, he's just a dad playing with his kid in the park. Oh, he makes clear, isn't he a great dad? No, he's just doing exactly the same as what mum would do. He's just because he's a parent. Yeah, don't glore, don't glorify it.

Katie South: 44:46

This happens to me the other day. I'm going away for a friend's birthday for a few days, and somebody said to me, Oh, isn't it great that Dom's gonna look after the kids? And I was like, Well, yes, he's very happy to continue being a parent. Like, what's with that?

Tom Nash: 45:00

But eagerly, then you've got the other side of it where so let's take that example where someone goes, someone sees a married dad in the park and sooner, whatever. Isn't it great? Isn't he not a really engaged dad? If he's a divorced dad, it changes and society goes, look at him, just showing up at the weekend. I I have to be honest with you, like I work with obviously quite a lot of men. All dads want to be is treated as an equal, on an even kill, have an equal opportunity. They want to be present, they want to get to know their kids, they don't want to be excluded and exiled. They might not yet know how to do those some of those practical steps. I had a client once who, in his first session, his homework was to learn how to iron get himself booked on a cookery clause. So he would know how to do the stuff he needs to do as a as a dad, not a father, right? The real stuff. Um, and again, it's so how do we make it more accountable?

Katie South: 45:57

I think that's really powerful because there are again a lot of stepmums out there who will feel like the kids come at the weekend and they end up doing the cooking, the cleaning, the laundry because dad needs to have quality time, quote unquote, which you can't see if you're listening, because he's not seeing them in the week. And actually, it's about no, being a parent is doing the shit stuff as well as doing the great stuff. And it's important that your children see dad can do that as well. So I think for these men who are thinking, you know, but all I want to do is play with my kids, I want them to love me, I want them to see that I'm fun. Actually, they need to see you doing that practical stuff to look after them as well, don't they?

Tom Nash: 46:39

Yeah, this gets mentioned on things on social media sometimes, and some people that I know take a mic out of me. I am one of those really weird people that like signing.

Katie South: 46:46

Okay, right. Uh whereabouts in the country do you live? Because I am one of those people who hate signing.

Tom Nash: 46:53

You're saying about like the the the dad wants the kid to see them as fun and etc. But you're absolutely right. What you're talking about is they also need to learn those other life skills, right? And again, going back to equality, how if you've got you've got a boy, how is your boy going to learn what equality is between human beings? The reason I actually love ironing, this is really weird, is when I was a kid, my dad used to do the ironing, and he used to get home from work and put on his music, and you could literally hear it from the other end of the street when you're walking home from school. Like you walk home from school, you're like, oh, dad's home doing the ironing. You'd walk in the door, and dad's standing there doing the ironing, music bluring out, that was his thing. He used it, it was this little joke within the family, but actually, it's a thing that I've now brought forward and gone. I are I love to wine, so I iron the uniforms, I put the music on in the kitchen, I have half an hour up, do my thing, and actually it is something that and now my boys, bio and bio, go, oh there's a man with an iron in his hand. Yeah, I can I can do that too. They can be better prepared for their adult relationships that they can actually go, well, I can do that. Yeah, I can yeah, I can help I can help lighten the load.

Katie South: 48:02

Yeah, I mean, I'm forever saying to my friends, like, I don't, I've got two boys and a girl, and I don't want my boys to grow up to be, you know, those men that my friends talk about now in less than pleasant terms. Um, so one of the other things I wanted to talk to you about before I let you go was around how your partner found it moving into the quote unquote stepmum role. In your situation, things were, I imagine, particularly difficult for your ex because of the situation. I wondered how that played out for your partner in the early days of bringing your families together.

Tom Nash: 48:41

I would just like to caveat this with by saying, and I'm sure this has probably come up on your podcast before, if I don't know it has being a stepparent is infinitely harder than being a biological parent. How far, what can I do, what can't I do? Like, where's the line? What am I, who am I to this person, right? And again, looking at how we kind of put our two families together, it was helpful making sure what we were focused on first and foremost is about putting the children in the centre, not the middle. When they're in the middle, there's a tug of war. When you're at the centre, you're both focused on them, right? Whether it's you and your ex or it's you and your new partner in terms of a blended family. So one of the things was that we do lots of little different things that are kind of quirky little things to us as a family. So, oh my god, my other heart's gonna kill me for sharing this because it's a certain idea. We do something every dinner table, every every every dinner time. At the end of dinner, we do what we call best and worst. We go around the table, and to be fair, my other half's idea was because modern-day kids they're stuck in their iPads or phones or TikTok, whatever. It was a way to find out about what's going on in their world in their day. But equally, it was also an opportunity to help them learn from maybe some of their worst, their mistakes, or whatever it might be, but also celebrate their wins. But it also helped all of us learn to dialogue with one another, get our own little in jokes with one another, our own unique connection points. So we do this thing every night, and you start with the person who went last yesterday, and what's your best and worst?

Katie South: 50:11

So your best and worst about the day or about the day. Yeah, okay.

Tom Nash: 50:15

What's your best and worst that day, or if they haven't been here for a couple of days because of transitions, what's your best and worst since we last since we last did this?

Katie South: 50:22

Love that.

Tom Nash: 50:23

And loads of stuff comes out. My youngest about two years ago said about this new kid at school who kept nicking the football or something, and so it was like and it was really, really annoying to everybody. And we said, Well, hold on, he's a new kid at school. Like, what if you asked him, does he want to play, but can you please not do that thing? And lo and behold, now they're really good friends. But again, it's just an opportunity to dialogue, to connect, to understand, bridge the gap. And yeah, there are really horrible times of you're not my dad, or you're not my mum, or it's going to happen. You have to and you can't be all roses all the time, but you you have to anticipate it. But again, like I'm not trying to be my bonus kid's dad. They have a dad, he's a great dad, right? And me being supportive of him being a great dad and being a great human being helps me build that relationship and trust with the kids. And I think that was that was the thing with my other half, particularly because of how we got together, particularly because, of course, we're worried about what's being said or done on the other side. We had to come up with our own house rules, we had to synergize with some that are on the other side, but of course they're not all going to be the same. We also had to help each other learn through talking with one another, but also through talking with the kids to help them understand sometimes about maybe when we've got it wrong or when we've got it right, but also the parts and roles that we play in each other's lives. And actually, that again goes back to the respect thing. When you've got, let's say, your bio kid having a dispute or calling out or saying something nasty or derogatory to their non-bio parent. What are you doing as a parent? How are you managing that? Are you allowing that to go unchecked so it becomes a socially acceptable approach for your child to talk to them like that? Especially if you're you're authentically trying to create this blended family when you and your ex are together, would you let them talk to their mum like that? Of course, they wouldn't. Same united front.

Katie South: 52:13

And that's important for the kids, right? The parents should show a united front.

Tom Nash: 52:18

Oh, hugely. I still do it now, even with my ex. Third time, I always work under three-strike rule. Like the third time with mum saying, Boys get your shoes on, dance here. After the third time, I'm I'm in there and I'm like, boys, go and apologise to your mother, put your shoes on, do you talk? My job to back her up.

Katie South: 52:33

That sort of team dynamic, I think, is so important. And a lot of what gets missed, I think, because in those early stages of bringing families together, you haven't yet formed that team. You're not you're not bonded as a family. So you've quite often got stepmum over here, dad over here with his kids. If stepmum's got kids, there are these kind of like two little families, you know, and and and that bit can be really, really challenging. So I love the idea of sitting around the table and saying, like, best and worst. Um, we used to do this thing where we would all have a little post-it note and we'd all write something that we loved about somebody else in the family and put it in a jar and then take it out and read it, and just those types of things. And I think, you know, obviously it all depends on the um developmental age of the kids and stuff, but just to try and focus on things that you can do to bring your family together rather than focusing on the conflict. Because in a nuclear family, there's arguments all the time in a first family. You don't sit and reflect on them. You, you know, my kids were telling me last night, we love granny more than you. When when we do these things, granny doesn't get cross with us, but you do.

Speaker 1: 53:42

I'm like, yes, guys.

Katie South: 53:44

But I thought to myself, it's funny. For me, that was like water off a duck's back. I thought, I know I'm a good mum. I also know that their granny gives them a little bit more, you know, flex than me, because that's what grannies do. But I tell you what, if it was my stepdaughter, I would still be like mulling that over and still be thinking, I'm a terrible person, what have I done? What have I done? You know, so it's so, it's so challenging. And I think the work that you do is so interesting and particularly important as a man to put yourself out there and say to other men, hey, look, I've been through some stuff here. You might have been through some stuff, and let's start talking about it. So just applaud you for that. I think it's it's it's so, so good. So, look, Tom, thank you so much for chatting to me today. I've really enjoyed it. I've learned a lot. I'm sure lots of people who have listened have too. And just thank you so much for your time.

Tom Nash: 54:36

It's awesome, lovely. Thank you. So I've really, really enjoyed it. This has been fantastic. Really loved it.

Katie South: 54:41

Well, let's do it again because I'm sure I'll get a lot of questions in from people after this.

Tom Nash: 54:46

Yeah, good. I'm off for that.

Katie South: 54:49

Another huge thank you to Tom for chatting to me and for sharing his experiences, both personal and professional. Often, we spoke about our passion for coaching and how it's had a huge impact on both of our lives, well-being, and happiness. It's such a positive and future-focused way of living through life, and it gives you back so much of that control that we often feel we are losing at that moment. I went with all genders separately and coupled together, so do check out the website or get in touch directly if you are interested in finding out more or have a display request to be. If you've enjoyed this episode or any other, please do write over view the podcast wherever you're listening. And don't forget to spread the word by sharing on your socials. It really, really means the word to me and help spread the word of Stephen Spite getting it to women if you feel many of the same feelings that you hear on this show and that you've probably had yourself. And finally, if you've got a story to share, please do get in touch through the website or on Instagram at stepmontbite by for now.