Episode 40: Marrying a Widower… and Becoming a Family of Six Kids!

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In this powerful and heart-opening episode, Katie talks to Parm (@mrssinghspirational) about her extraordinary journey from being a married mum of three, to a divorced mum of three, to becoming a stepmum to three children who had recently lost their mother.

Parm shares how quickly their blended family bonded, how deeply she cares for her stepchildren, and how she approached joining a family in the midst of grief with compassion, respect and intention.

But alongside the joy, Parm also opens up about the painful moment when her own biological daughter struggled with the changes and ultimately decided to move in with her dad. While Parm supported her daughter’s choice wholeheartedly, she speaks honestly about the heartbreak and feelings of rejection she experienced.

Together, Katie and Parm explore:

• what it’s like to marry a widower and honour the memory of a child’s late mum
• blending two sets of children who are all coping with big emotions
• supporting a child who chooses a different home
• grief, loyalty, identity and love inside a large stepfamily
• Parm’s commitment to keeping her stepkids’ mum present in their lives — without feeling overshadowed
• how she navigated her own emotions while holding space for everyone else

This is a beautiful, uplifting, deeply human conversation about love after loss, blended-family bonding, and what it truly means to show up for children — yours and someone else’s.

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Keywords: marrying a widower, stepmum to grieving children, blending large families, stepmum rejection, my child moved out, high-emotion stepfamily, stepmum support, widower remarriage, blended family grief, stepmum podcast

Love can expand a family in unexpected, beautiful ways — and Parm’s story shows just that.

Transcript

Katie South: 0:01

Hello, I'm Katie and this is Stepmum Space, the judgment free zone where we talk candidly about the fairy tales and scary tales of Stepmum Life. So whether you've been a Stepmum for years, you're just starting out, or you want to understand the Stepmum in your life a little bit better, this is the place for you. So welcome everybody, how has your week been? I have had a lot more messages about the summer holidays again this week, with Chloe writing to say she hates the constant changing of goalposts regarding her 13-year-old stepchild's summer plans. And Farah telling me that as a teacher she's expected to spend the summer looking after her stepdaughter, even though she doesn't have biological kids herself and would rather be doing other stuff. In her words, I'm expected to do everything a parent does except have a say in important issues and get the recognition when things go well for my stepdaughter. It's caused so many arguments with me and my husband, and I just don't know where to go next. Well, Farah, Chloe, sending you and everybody else who wrote to me loads and loads of love. Holidays are a massive pressure point for us stepmums, and as with a lot of things step-related, there is so little support. If you'd like some one-to-one coaching on how to get through the holidays with ease and grace, or any other issue you might be facing, do get in touch. And if you're interested in finding out more about some of the self-guided tools that are available through Stepmum Space, then subscribe to the website at stepmumspace.com to find out more. Now, my guest today is Palm, aka Mrs. Singspirational. Palm is a mum to three children and a stepmum to three more. Palm's husband is widowed, so with six children in the family home, as you can imagine, it's a very busy and bustling place. Palm's story really is one of love, of pouring love out into others and of creating a family where others can love and be loved despite the different genetic ties and biological bonds. I was close to tears a few times during this recording, and I know you will love this chat with the wonderful Palm. Enjoy the show. Hi Palm, thanks for coming on the show. Hi, thanks for having me. So look, when you got in touch with me, I was like bowled over by your story. So why don't you start by sharing a little bit about how you and your husband met?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 2:34

Yeah, so I'm divorced with three kids, three girls, and my husband's uh widowed with three children, also. And we met a few years ago because my divorce was just finalizing, and I actually saw his advert on social media that one of my friends had posted that he's a will writer and you know does all that kind of thing. And I thought, right, I really need to get my things in order. The divorce is nearly final, I need to just protect my assets, and I need to make sure that things go to my kids and just have everything in place because it's things that you just never really consider when you're a full family unit. When you become a single parent, there's lots of things that a whole new world just opens up to. Oh my god, I'm the sole responsible person because these children are with me all the time. And so, yes, I got in touch with Raj to say, Oh hey, yeah, I'd like a will. And I didn't know who he was, I hadn't checked his social media, and it wasn't until after we spoke and set a meeting that I went and checked his social media and then realised, oh, he's widowed and he's got three children. And there was a lot of stories that he'd posted up about one of them was being out with the children, going out for a meal, and the little boy needed to go for a wee, and then he didn't know what to do with his girls. Like, do I leave them at the table? Do I take them with me? They can't come into the men's. Do we go into disabled? But what if somebody else disabled needs to use it? And he took the little one in, you know, to the gents and he had the girls standing outside. And literally every five seconds, he's like, Girls, you okay? Yeah, Daddy, girls, are you okay? Yeah, daddy. And I thought, God, that's me. I have to do that, except I can take all three girls in to the same loo. But I thought the number of times I'd left a table and then thought, what if the waiters think we've left and they start clearing our food away? And but why can't kids go for a week before the meal comes? Yeah, well, that's the bigger question, isn't it? And I said to him, Oh, you know, next time you do something with the kids, I'll come. And he was like, Oh, okay, hello, who is this? You know, I remember I was considering taking the girls on holiday if I thought, would that be really, really tough? I've never done it on my own. And how old were your girls at this point? At that time, my eldest was 12, and then my middle one was nine, and my youngest was six. Their dad, we'd separated three years before that.

Katie South: 4:59

So you've gone to get a will, you've gone and looked up the guy on social media, and sound so stalkerish now. Oh, I think it's let's call it fate. And you kind of said to him, Hey, I'll come with you next time you guys go out. What happens then?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 5:16

Yeah, so we started the whole conversation about the will. Then I think it was a bank holiday weekend or something, and I think I asked him, Oh, what are you doing with the kids? They're off on Monday. And he said, Oh, yeah, I've forgotten about that. And and I said, Well, there's a really cool circus in town in Oxford, near where I lived. And I said, Why don't you take them there? And and I said, I've had really great reviews, and it's on a farm, which on the farm, they've got these you can go to the petting zoo after it's you know, it's very, really nice, nice day out. And he said, Oh, yeah, thanks. I'll think I'll do that. Then the night before he messaged me saying, Well, what are you doing with your kids? And I was like, Oh, I haven't really planned anything. And he's like, Right, so you've planned my day out, but you've not planned anything as well. So he said, Why don't you come with yours as well? Then I was like, Oh, okay. So, and this was, I was telling my sister, I was like, Oh, I think I'm gonna do this with this guy and his kids, you know, we're just all going out together. And then my sister raised the point, like, if this becomes something, I think you should tell your ex. And before that point, I hadn't even considered my ex as a part of the equation. Then I thought it is the right thing to do. I saw my ex, he was bringing dropping the kids off on Sunday, and I said, Listen, I've been talking to this guy, he's widowed, I don't know if anything's going to happen. But just to let you know, I'm taking the girls out with him and his kids tomorrow. Are you okay with that? I think he was a bit like, Why are you telling me? But it just felt like when my sister brought it up, it felt like the right thing to do because I'm not one of these to do things behind closed doors, or I don't want there to be any kind of animosity, or my girls go back to their dad and be talking about the day and he doesn't have a clue what they're talking about. So I think it was nice. I think he appreciates the fact that I, you know, mentioned it to him.

Katie South: 7:03

And at that point, did you kind of have a little bit of butterfly feelings for this guy, or was it all a platonic thing?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 7:08

I did. From the first time I met him, it was like we'd known each other for years. You know, we had so many similarities and things that we both have this strange thing with a few words. So I don't like the word hope because I think it's got negative connotations attached. I think hope is something half-hearted. Whereas I like to say, you know, I wish, I pray, I would like rather than I hope this happens. Or, you know, I get very, I don't even like the kids using it. And I think for my husband now, so many people said to him, because his wife passed away from stomach cancer, so many people said, keep hope, you must have hope. You must, and he's like, hope isn't a real thing, it's not something tangible, it's not something you're working on, you can't work towards hope, you know. So for him, he's always he doesn't have hope. And I think I mentioned it, and then I thought, oh, I'm gonna sound so weird to you now. And he's like, No, I don't like the word hope either. You know, so I was like, Oh my god, there's another person in the world like me that doesn't like the word hope.

Katie South: 8:11

And I think that it just kind of transpired from there. You feel that there's like a bit of a connection, and and you take your kids off to the circus.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 8:18

So we took them off to the circus, and we literally had the whole road because it was eight of us, right? So I had this running joke that we were the circus the whole day, and there was like a park in the farm as well. So after the circus, like I put on a picnic, the kids all went and played in the park, and they all just kind of like paired up and just went off and played, and we just thought this is really nice, you know. The kids have all got somebody that they're getting on with. And how old were his kids at this point? Four and a half, six and a half, and about nine. So pretty similar to yours. Yeah, so not too bad. Yeah, not too far off after the day had ended. His kids were like, Oh, can we go back to Palm's house? Please, please. He was like, Um, I don't know, can we go back to Palm's house? Meanwhile, Palmer stood there, like, oh my god, what does my house look like? Is it in a decent state? Did I clean the kitchen before we left?

Katie South: 9:14

I was just thinking, a woman would never invite herself on an unplanned play date, would she?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 9:20

Not really, ever. Even then, it would be like three weeks in advance. And I just said, uh we've got a cat as well. So little boy Viran, he was like, Oh please, I want to meet George, you know, please can I meet George? So I was like, Well, it's not, it wasn't really on their way home. But I said, Look, why don't you? Why don't you just bring the kids and you know, feed them dinner and then leave after the traffic? And so, yeah, so then they came back and then they were begging for sleepovers, and he's like, I'm really embarrassed. He's like, My kids don't do this. He said, They're never asked to go to someone's house. He goes, let alone someone they'd just met for the very first time. He said, Now they're talking about sleepovers. He said, My kids have never had sleepovers apart from my grandparents, you know, they've never slept at anybody else's house. So that was that was quite nice. That felt nice to me, you know. The kids were all playing, they were in and out of the garden. And and he kept saying to his girls, stop wandering around the house, you know. And I was like, it's fine, it's okay. And they're like, We're looking for George. And he's like, How are they so comfortable to a place they've never been to before? And that's why, you know, like he said, I think it was fate.

Katie South: 10:27

So obviously, the kids had connected really well. How was it for you guys? How did you sort of officially become a couple?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 11:43

Like so many people ask, and I just feel like it just kind of naturally progressed into that because I think we were very mindful, even though we liked each other, we would never have done anything had the kids not have gelled so well because they they were all so young and it would be such a huge aspect of our lives. And I think for the kids to have all been through something fairly big in their lives and traumatic anyway, it would be difficult to force them into a situation that they weren't comfortable with. So, well, soon after that, I think we ran into lockdown, so we didn't really get to see each other much. It was it was during lockdown that we decided, right? Yeah, I think we're gonna be together. I remember sitting down speaking to my girls, one of my daughters, she was just finishing year five, and and I said to her, look, you know, I'm thinking of moving, you know, so we move closer to these guys. I just don't know when to do it. Should we do it, you know, next summer so you finish primary school? And she said, Well, if I'm going to go from primary to secondary, I think I'd like to have friends first. So I think I'd like to do year six in the new school. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then my elder, she was going into year nine. So she's like, I think I'd like to do year nine in the new school rather than do year nine here, and then go off and do year 10 and 11 because I guess GCSEs, they start them so much earlier now. Then I was like, Oh, right, okay. So I was thinking we will move next summer. Then the kids have just given me a shorter time scale to say we want to move this summer in the middle of COVID, you know. That's why you should never give your uh kids the choices. That's it. Then I was thinking, well, if we were to move a year before, I thought we would just live in the same town, and then over the course of a year, we can all just spend a bit more time together. So I rented a place um just down the road from him and his parents. So we all kind of lived a couple of roads apart. And I remember the day the truck came, we offloaded, we moved everything in, set the bedrooms up for my three girls, and and his kids were over as well. And I remember saying to the eldest, Naveen, you know, these are my set of drawers. I'm going to keep this drawer empty for you guys so you can put pajamas and toothbrushes and clothes in there. So when you come to visit, if you ever want to stay, and they never left from the day I moved in. So he was still going back and forth to his house. His house was empty. So we were all of us in this really small three-bedroom house, and then um within a week we've changed all the bedrooms around again. So instead of a double bed, we've got a bunk bed. All the kids paired it up. So our younger two, they were on the bunk beds, the middle two were together on two single beds, and the older two shared a room on the with a king-size bed, and then we converted the living room into you know, sort of our bedroom.

Katie South: 14:32

I was just about to say, where did you guys end up? Like, did you get a nice get a nice hotel or something?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 14:37

Well, for the first week, they all wanted to be in the same room, so we we did the whole old school thing with all the duvets on the floor, but it just got a bit too much of like unpacking and packing every day, putting these beds out.

Katie South: 14:50

I mean, this sounds like the absolute dream getting together of a family, everybody gelling really well, everybody wanting to be together all the time. Like this is what 2020, 2021. Where are you guys now?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 15:04

Now we've moved into a much larger home that accommodates all of us. There's enough space for all of us. So last year we did hit a bit of a bit of a bump in the road. So my middle one, Rookie, she didn't seem too happy. She was having a few issues, she was getting social anxiety, first of all, when the schools fully opened up. And this is something that I'd never really realised before, she'd never shared. But we were interviewed by the BBC, and I remember the interviewer saying, What is the thing that you're least looking forward to? And so she stepped forward and she said, Well, the thing that worries me the most is um how crowded the schools are going to be. It's going to be really loud and crowded because during the second lockdown, she was still 50% in school, so there was only four or five children in her class, and it was children she'd never really spoke to, so she managed to have a bit of a connection with them, you know, they started getting on really well. And I think she enjoyed having just the quietest space and the attention of the teacher for just a few of them. And I thought, oh, I never knew that that bothered her, or that was something that she thought about. So when she went off to secondary school, you know, these anxieties started to come out, and she wasn't really enjoying it, and then waking her up to go to school is becoming really tough. I mean, there were days we would wake up at five o'clock just so that we could slowly start waking her up. And with Rookie, she's very her moods go very up and down. So when she'd get into an argument, she would always end it with, Well, I never chose to live with you, I want to live with my dad. And I said, Well, it wasn't an option for anybody. You know, he said the girls should stay together, therefore they should stay with you. He was going to live back with his parents, I had the space. So it was never really a conversation that anybody really had, it was just a given.

Katie South: 17:05

And the girls maintained a regular good relationship with their dad? Yeah.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 17:10

Yeah, yeah. So we didn't go through the courts, it was a mutual decision. Um, we did the divorce ourselves. That's why we kept getting the paperwork wrong and it took so long. But we don't have court orders in place. We've always said that the girl should be able to go visit him whenever they want to visit him and so long as he's available. And to be honest, 95% of the time he's said, yeah, I can have them, you know, no problem. We meet halfway. Yeah, with Rookie, we just started realizing that actually it's just it was just too many people. And she even had these issues when it was just me and the girls, but I guess I just didn't see it because maybe she didn't communicate them or she wasn't able to, or nobody outwardly asked her those questions. You know, you ask, oh, you know, how was school and who did you play with, and you know, things like that. I didn't realise that she actually fears walking in through those gates. I didn't realise that was something she was going through is until we started delving into it. And then, yeah, last year it just got to a point where she would just break down, she would not get out of bed for school in the mornings, and it was just becoming it was taking its toll on all of us because then the whole household was upside down and you know, out of sorts. She was 12 at the time and she would just be screaming, and I couldn't get her to calm down, and then she just kept saying, I just don't want to be here, I just want to go and live with my dad, you know, and that it wasn't an option to begin with. And we tried a lot of things, you know. My husband's parents lived nearby, um, they've got a spare room. We spend a lot of time here, it's close to the kids' school, so they help out with school runs.

Katie South: 18:51

How did it feel to hear her say she wanted to go and live at her dad's and she didn't want to be there?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 18:57

It's the worst form of rejection, I think, that I've ever had in my life. I think that any mother, any person can feel because you think they're a part of me, they've come from me, and I'm the one they don't want to be around. You know, and she said some really nasty things, which in hindsight, you know, it was just her acting out, being angry, but I'd never experienced anything to that extreme. We'd have arguments, you know, when we lived just the four of us, and she'd always storm off and say, Oh, I don't want to live here, but I thought I always just thought I was just something she's saying. But this time it seemed like it wasn't something she was saying, it was something that she really wanted. And then we just had to sit on a phone call with her dad and say, Look, this is what's going on, and it's happening more and more often. It's getting difficult to take her to school, you know. And the school were really trying to help, but she just made up her mind, this is not where she wanted to be. So last year, February, she asked her dad, I said, You have to ask him. I can't be the one to ask him because it's something that you want. I said it's something I want to work on, but this is what's something you really want. So you have to be the one to ask him. Yeah, eventually he said, Okay, you can come and live here, but you've got to go to school, and there's certain things that you you know you have to do. So she moved out last February and she stopped going to school in October. So they had both decided that she was going to be homeschooled. I didn't think that was the best option because in a house where there's just there's two grandparents, her dad and just her, there's no children, there's no, you know, where is she going to develop her friendships from and things like that? So since last October, she's been homeschooling, and it was about a month ago that I took her out because I try and spend some as much time with her as I can. I took her out and she said, I think I want to go back to school. And I said, Wow, that's a really big step, you know. And I said, You know, how have you come to this decision? She said, I'm just getting really lonely, and I really don't want to grow up with this social anxiety. I don't want to be an adult and not know how to be with people. And I thought, wow, that's it's taken a while to get there, but at least it's something she's realized herself on her own.

Katie South: 21:23

And that's the most powerful way to do it, isn't it? Because she's the realization from herself and nobody's pushed her. And it sounds like, you know, as you say, the rejection of hearing your child say, Well, I don't want to live with you, I want to live with my dad. But it sounds like you've been able to really put her needs ahead of your own.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 21:44

Yeah. Marge and I both have to sort of say to ourselves that actually this has got nothing to do with us, it's her journey, and that's what we have to remember. That this is something, albeit she's a child, it's something she has to go through herself, and at least she's got her dad there. She could that's an option for her. She's only visited us a couple of times. I think she still gets a bit anxious when coming back home to the house. So we've met her like at my mum's house or my sister's house, and we've gone out a few times like that.

Katie South: 22:15

And what's her relationship like with her sort of full biological siblings now?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 22:20

I think it's taken a while to rebuild that because even with me, I felt like she was still rejecting me early days. I'd message her, I'd try and call her, she wouldn't answer, or it would just be one-word replies, and I can, you know, with my hand on my heart, say that it's taken up until now to feel like we've got that mother-daughter relationship again.

Katie South: 22:45

Yeah. It's so difficult, and I know that there'll be step-mums listening who will be interested in that from the other sort of side of the story. So it's really nice to hear from a biological mum how those feelings kind of land when your child says, Well, actually, I want to go and live with the other parent, and you do what's best for the child, but that doesn't make it easy for you.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 23:07

No, I remember that day when Raj dropped her off to her dad's and he came back. And I remember I was making this roast dinner and I was just bawling my eyes out. And then I just say I kept saying to him, I just say, I feel like I'm grieving, or why am I feeling like this? It's a decision we all made, it's okay. But you know, you have so many things going through your head thinking, am I a failure? Where did I get wrong? Did I do something? Could I have done something differently? Whereas now I can sit here and not sob and not cry and be like, you know, I did the right thing by her. And she was the most important person in the equation. At the time, we very quickly become very judgmental of ourselves. And I think sometimes we just need to say, take a breather, take a step back, it's okay. I think it's a work in progress, you know, even life.

Katie South: 23:57

Yeah, exactly. And you know, I was saying to my husband actually the other week that parenting, it's not zero to 16 or zero to 18, it's the rest of their life. So you're building a relationship with this young person that you want to last the rest of their life, and actually, even if it goes through stages where you know you might not see them as much as you want, you're building something that's forever, you're gonna be there forever for them.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 24:23

So yeah, and it can ebb and flow, and you're instilling these things in them that they will then turn to when they're grown up. You know, the kids now we sit around the table and they all just look at each other and they're like, God, we can't imagine a small family anymore. You know, my girls will say, Can you imagine if it was just us living in Oxford by ourselves? And Rajas kids would say, Oh my goodness, if we'd still be sitting in that old house, if you hadn't have come along, we don't know where we'd be or who would be in our lives.

Katie South: 24:57

It's really interesting to hear about your story with your own daughter and how that panned out. How's your experience been as a stepmum?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 25:07

So I think I'm one of these really over cautious people, I think which a lot of stepmums are, um, because you don't know where it's right to do something or say something. Like early days, I have to say I didn't discipline them at all. It was all very nice stuff, and I would overcompensate by telling my kids certain things so it could be heard by all the kids because I didn't want to be rejected, I just wanted them to accept me. And I was also trying to make sure that I wasn't stepping into their mum's shoes, you know, and I made it very clear to them I'm not here to replace anybody.

Katie South: 25:41

And how long ago had their mum passed away by the time you met them?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 25:44

It it hadn't been long, it made about a year and a half, yeah. So not long. So it was all still very raw, very real for them. I mean, the youngest we're only, you know, he was only like four and a half, so he took to me quite well. I think just having that female figure about all of the time. They had their nan and their auntie, that was a huge part of their lives. That when their mum passed away, their auntie lived with them for a while, but then you know, she got married, she got pregnant. So obviously, her life was starting a new chapter as well. So it kind of all probably happened at the right sort of time. The eldest used to say to her dad, Daddy, please don't get married again. Please don't get married again, don't ever replace mummy. So he I remember him saying, How would I even introduce you? But then it all just happened by itself. I remember saying to him, Don't tell the kids about me. And I don't, I didn't think we were all going to meet so quickly, but I said it the kids should be able to learn who I am. Because when somebody tells you, Oh, she's really nice, and you really like her, you just kind of sit there all skeptical, like, am I really gonna like her? Yeah, especially if you're a girl who said to your dad, don't ever get married again. So we spent a lot of late nights talking. You know, she was really young at the time, she was almost 10. So I think she was quite understanding for her age, and when we met, she just felt like she'd known me for years. Before I even moved up here, she would message me first thing in the morning, last thing at night, say goodnight. She'd be video calling the girls, and although she had, you know, lots of family around her here, she just had this instant connection with us. I mean, now the older two, so my eldest is doing her GCSEs right now. Naveen is 14, Barja's eldest. Even if we just mentioned to Naveen, oh my goodness, Aisha could be moving out in two years, she just starts crying because they are inseparable right now. They're so close. The number of people that say to me, you can't actually tell who your biological kids are and who's not. And for me, I think that's the biggest compliment I can receive from outside. Not that it matters, but you get to see how you're perceived amongst people. You know, we had a wedding this weekend, and honestly, the kids are all just laughing, joking, and I always have this running joke that we don't need outsiders because there's enough of us. You know, we have a kids' party, and half the kids at the party are always my kids, you know. My brother and my sister always say, make sure you come because you guys make up half the party.

Katie South: 28:18

I say that, you know, our kind of really good friends of ours, they've got one child, and a lot of the time we come with four children. Um, you know, whenever we go around there for a barbecue, I'm like, we'll bring loads of food because there's so many of us. Like, you can't, you don't have to cater for us all. And you know, it's amazing to hear that those bonds are formed between you and the kids and the kids themselves. Has it always been that straightforward for you guys?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 28:46

Sometimes I think, oh, it doesn't sound great that we're saying this to people because they might think, oh, she's lying or something. But honestly, apart from Rookie wanting to go and live with her dad, it has been pretty straightforward. I mean, you probably get it as well. Like, how do you manage, how do you cope with that many of you? And I'll be honest, we're quite regimented, so the kids are up at 6:40, they're downstairs for dinner at 7:15, but they know that's the way it is, and they all just enjoy that. And they also know that once Aisha's grown up and fled, it's like a you know knock on effect, then it'll be the next one, then the next one. Every couple of years, there'll be somebody moving out or doing their own thing. So I think they are just enjoying this time, they all enjoyed the fact that we all sit down and have dinner together. It's hustle and bustle in the mornings, but they all they get themselves ready, and I probably do less around the house now than what I used to do before because Raj is very much like no, there's certain things they need to learn and do themselves. Vieran's, he just turned eight and he loves making his own eggs in the morning. So they've all got their own frying pans, and there they are, stood there making their eggs in the morning. And I thought it's good because they're learning how to do things, and these are life skills that they need to know. Whereas before, I would be typical mum. No, no, I have to do everything, I have to hang out for them, I have to tidy everything away. And now, even if I go towards the vacuum, Raj is like, nope, they can do their own rooms. The oldest, yeah. He's like, the older two can do them all ways, and I'm not right. So then I'm like, what do I do now? You put your feet up and relax. Yeah, finally, yeah. But it's good because then you know, everyone pitches in to with help with the kitchen and things like that. So it's nice, no one's being spoiled, they're all learning their way.

Katie South: 30:41

I do think that's really important, particularly. I mean, in any family, it's important that the children learn so but particularly in big families, because there's just so much more stuff to do. What so much washing when you cook a meal, and with the cost of going out at the moment, you know, a lot of people are staying in a lot more. I will always say to all of the kids, right? Come on, you can all help, you're all pitching in, and they don't actually complain about it, or if they do, it's Very much quickly done, and then you're on.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 31:10

Half of the time they're coming up to me. Can we do something? Can I do something? I'm like, right, okay. Sometimes it's hard to navigate, right? Who's doing what? And right, right. You chop the veg, you chop the salad, I'll stand by the cooker.

Katie South: 31:25

Yeah, exactly. And how has it been? Um, because a lot of the women that I speak to who marry a widower will kind of say that that presents some unique challenges. Have there been any situations around that that have been a bit more bumpy for you?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 31:42

I've always been really open with Raj, like from day one. I was very open about speaking about his wife, about what she was like. And I said to him, Because if I don't know her, I don't know you, and how will I ever know the children to that deeper level? And I think he actually found that a bit strange to begin with. He's like, Well, why do you want to know? You know, and I said, Yeah, but it's nice for me to know how she was with the kids, show me videos. I said, Because how am I going to keep her memory alive if I don't know anything? I don't want to be sat there like, oh, so now I'll remind the kids of that of a story. Oh, you know, when mommy did this, and they'll say, Oh, yeah. And it's almost like I was there, even they forget I wasn't there, but just because we've shared so many stories and things. And he thought he had dealt with it, but I I said to him very early on, I said, it's going to be something that you heal with and you keep on healing. It's not like a tick box, like that's it, I've grieved, and that's done, and it's out of the way. And so there were moments where he would dip in and out, and he'd even say, I don't know why I'm feeling like this. And I said, Because you've not dealt with something. I said, You went straight into survival mode, which is what I did when my ex-husband left. I went straight into I've got three kids and the swimming lessons and the piano lessons and school and homework and all these demands and work. And I said, You did the same. Getting these three kids to school, squeezing in work, feeling overwhelmed, and just being like, oh, you know, just getting through it each and every day. But I said, So long as we talk about it, I remember saying to him, Have you ever cried in front of the kids? And he's like, No, no, no, no, I don't want them to know that side of me or see that side of me. And I said, I think it's really important because what was happening with the kids now is that all they saw that he's really happy with me, but how was he with our mummy? I said, So what we've done is we've reminded them of all these stories of them and their mum, but not of the family unit. So I said, now it's creating something else in their minds, and they're thinking, was he even happy with mummy? Or what happened there? And you know, did daddy get over mummy that quickly? Palm came along, and you know, mommy's forgotten about like they see the things that I do, but they couldn't see what is daddy doing in all of this. Like I will on Mother's Day, I will always put on a spread in the kitchen, I'll always have you know her photo up on the kids' birthdays. I will always, you know, put different photos up next to the cake. There's quite a few photos that we've got up in our house all the time. And so I said to him, it's really important that you open up and you speak to them. You know, so it was like last October, we all just had a huge crying therapy session, like together. But I think it was really nice for them to see that vulnerable side to their dad, something that he'd been suppressing. And he said, you know, a few days after, he goes, I felt so much lighter after that, and I didn't think that's what I'd feel. He thought he would feel like somebody that's let them down. And I think it's that whole male thing where you've got to be butch and strong and not let your guard down and you mustn't cry about things, but it was it was really healing because for the first time they saw their dad miss their mum because that's how simplified kids see things, they're not looking into the depths of oh, he's not strong anymore. All they're seeing is, oh, daddy actually misses mummy, you know. And I said to him, it's really important for you to still be able to talk about her, and you know, sometimes he'll come up to me and he'll poke me and he'll say, Are you real? You know, I'm like, no, of course I'm real, that's why I'm talking about these things. I said, if they're important to me, they must be even more important to you because if I've thought of them, you must already be thinking them. And so for me, I'm like, it's not just doing right about us too, it's doing right about these six children that we have. You know, my kids, they've still got photos of their dad, they talk about him quite openly, we all talk about him, you know. And I'm like, just because we've we're in different families now, we mustn't forget that at one time that was our family unit, and that was their family unit, you know, now we're in a different family unit. But it's okay, have it all sort of coexist.

Katie South: 36:04

Yeah, it's so I'm just gonna say it's so unusual to hear somebody speaking like this because you know, all emotions are totally valid and welcome. I always say that, but a lot of women who will marry a widower will feel some element of kind of not necessarily jealousy, but like uh I'm second. What would you know? I'm only here because somebody else isn't, all those types of things. But it seems that your approach is really quite different.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 36:35

Yeah, because I think there's no way she can come back to this, you know. Bless her, she is not here. We can't take away from that. And I've always said to the kids, you know, I said, Mummy will not be our weakness, mummy will be our strength, and you will tell your story for years to come, and people will be inspired by you. You know, Naveen's done quite a few like Instagram lives where she's had like hundreds of people watching, and she's talking about her mum, and you know, how inspired she was by her mum, and you know, she was a businesswoman, she was a mum, she was a family person, and she was very creative. And and I said, This is what I mean when I say mummy will be the strength of you. So I I know the things that their mum was into, and you know, she loved to sew and stitch, and things came, creative things came to her really naturally. She was a makeup artist. So I bought the girl's sewing machine, and I was like, right, okay, this is something I'm not very good at it, but I will give everything a go, you know. But mummy used to love doing stuff like this, so we're gonna sew some pillows today because I don't want them to ever feel like they don't get to experience the things that their mum would have done with them. So I said to Raj, this is why it's important for you to speak to me about what she was like. You know, my kids will always get whatever I'm passing down to them, but your kids will only get what I'm passing down. What about what their mum would have passed down to them, what she would have spoken about, things that she was interested in. So, and I and I think that's really important. Like for me, someone did say to me, You'll be living in the shadows of a dead woman, and I was like, What? And for me, I didn't see it like that because maybe I didn't want to see it like that, but I don't see the point of seeing it like that because that person's gone, they're not here, and it also depends on what your partner's like. Whereas I think Raj, he wouldn't have spoken about so many things had I not have asked him, because he didn't know how it would make me feel. And I even said to him, I'm not here to replace her, not even for you, because she was somebody else, I'm somebody else. But I think it just so happens we were both very similar. She was the eldest in her family, both very much into like the kids and cooking and the house and being a certain way. So there's quite a few similarities that came about that found out afterwards.

Katie South: 38:55

I felt really emotional hearing you talk about, you know, your mum will be your strength. What a beautiful thing to say. As a mother, I'm sure she would be so happy that it's you who's with her children now.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 39:08

Yeah, yeah. I I pray that she would feel like that. And you know, and I say to the kids, you know, mummy's always looking down upon you, and you know, we pray at night time, and you know, like when they miss them, they've got certain things of hers. And I said, Look, she will always live here within you forever. Even my youngest, she'll she'll write her notes on Mother's Day near Mummy, and you know, she writes notes to her as well because you know, she'll say it's not her fault, she's not with her children, but at least we're with her children, they'll say things like that. So I feel like all of these kids together, they've all got to experience so much by being together. One from being from a divorced family and being from a widowed family.

Katie South: 39:52

And how has it been for the kind of dynamic of some of the children having their biological mum and their biological dad, obviously, on the scene as well, albeit not in the house, and the other children not having their biological mother? What's that dynamic like?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 40:08

I think my kids have been so good, they've been so understanding. Like Virin, he's very cuddly, he likes a lot of hugs. And to be honest, there is not a single time that I can remember my kids saying, Oh, but she's my mum, or oh, he's always hugging you, or she's always hugging you. Honestly, hand or heart, there's not a single time. I think they all just really understood. You think I remember sitting with mine once saying, Listen, they don't get to see their mummy every night, they don't get to give her a kiss good night, they don't get to say, We'll see you after school. I said the time they say goodbye to her, that was the last time. And I think that really hit home with them, you know. And large as kids, they are very cuddly, whereas my eldest kind of lost that and now is finding it again because she went through that awkward phase of like, can't touch you, mum. And um, and and it's been really nice that they've been like that. Sometimes my youngest Sophia, she'll grab me and then Vera and will come and then make a little sandwich around me, and they just think it's the funniest thing in the world and poke all my podgy bits. And so I'm really grateful that my kids have not been jealous like that at all.

Katie South: 41:18

It it's incredible, and again, probably quite unusual. Like our oldest three, you know, I would see my son would get jealous if if he could see me paying the girls a little bit more attention, and I probably, if I'm really honest, paid them a bit more attention because I really wanted them to feel comfortable. And not not so much now they're all older and that there's not that at all, but yeah, I mean it's an incredible life lesson for your kids around empathy and understanding as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 41:47

They're huge, and we say to them that guys, we need to be really grateful for the situation that we're in because we're experiencing so many things that other people won't get to see this or feel this, and I think that is one thing they do all really, really appreciate. Like we do this thing at dinner time, we go around the table and we say, What was good about today and what we're grateful for. And the number of times they will say, I'm grateful for us, for you, for me, for us being here with your dinners palm. You know, we don't have to eat freezer dinners anymore, you know. It's really great, and that's what makes you feel like, okay, do you know what we're not doing too badly, we're doing all right by these kids.

Katie South: 42:30

Sounds like you're doing incredibly. Have you got any advice for any stepmum who is married or in a relationship with a widower who's finding it hard to kind of find her place in that family?

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 42:44

I'd say be open, communication is the key, and I'll be honest, I found it very hard to communicate because I didn't like confrontation, and it does not every bit of communication has to end in confrontation, but for some reason that's what I had in my head as a young adult. I would say just be open and honest with your partner because that is what I was like, and it made things so much easier. It just opens pathways to explore so many more things together, and then the moments that you have together because of the fact that you decided to share how you were feeling. Because do you know what it's not wrong for you to feel a certain way, it's okay. That's it's a part of life. It doesn't mean you're nasty about a certain situation or that you have hate within you or something like it, doesn't have to be something so negative, it can be something really beautiful, and I'm glad that I realized that myself that I speak started to speak about the kid's mum and asking questions and things like that because it just opened up a whole different depth of our relationship. Don't keep it in, don't keep it in.

Katie South: 43:55

Yeah, oh I'm a big, big believer in talking it out, and I think you know it's interesting. I was chatting with somebody the other day, and they were saying, Well, how much should you tell the kids about what you're feeling? Because you don't obviously want to give them all your adult problems, but equally showing a bit of vulnerability as an adult and saying, Hey, like I'm finding this thing a bit tricky and I'm feeling a little bit like this can actually be quite helpful in strengthening the bonds between you.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 44:18

No, definitely, because sometimes kids they just see as the adults as the people that just get on with things. Sometimes we have to say, guys, hey, like I've had a bad day because I was particularly emotional about this or this came up or this triggered that, and then they start to treat you like human beings, not the robots that they think you are. Yeah, and I just say it gets them thinking as well, like, oh okay, because for me to say something that I felt vulnerable about something you know to do with their mummy, it it kind of brings everything closer together as well. It it connects the dots a little bit better for them to realise, oh, actually, we're not just a certain way once we grow up, and then that's it, we don't have particular feelings or emotions, or we're always angry because the sugar was not put back in the sugar pot or something. You know, we do actually have bigger problems and issues, and I think it actually does help them realize things from your perspective.

Katie South: 45:15

Yeah, I agree. And I often think if you don't fill in the blanks, then the kids will fill them in for you and probably get it wrong.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 45:22

Yeah, and then it just explains, yeah, definitely.

Katie South: 45:26

Wow, well, look, Palm, it's been so uplifting and beautiful to talk to you and hear about your incredible family. You must feel super proud of where you've got to.

Parm (@mrssinghspirational): 45:39

Yeah, I'm really I'm proud of them, and yeah, like you said, and us as a whole. You know, it's been a long journey, and I think it is for everybody. But do you know what? Just keep going. Everyone should just keep going, keep putting the effort in, even with my middle daughter. It was very difficult to keep being the one to reach out to her. But I had to keep remembering that I've just got to be consistent with her because if I step back, she will think I don't care anymore. Where our relationship was a year ago and where it is now and where it's going, it's a much better place. So just keep consistency and persistency, I say, are the two key things that we just got to keep going with. So yeah, no, thank you so much for having me.

Katie South: 46:21

You're very, very welcome. Thank you so much for talking to me. It's been lovely, thank you. Wow, what a positive and uplifting story. Thank you so much, Palm, for getting in touch. It's really, really nice to end series 5 on a Stepmumming fairy tale. But for those of you who are living in scary tale territory at the moment, please do not fear the Stepmum Space Forum is available 24-7 and there is plenty more support available at stepmumspace.com. The platform's constantly evolving, so do subscribe to be notified as soon as new content is added. If you've enjoyed any of the episodes of Stepmum Space, please do drop a rating or a view wherever you're listening to the show. I make the podcast myself with a bit of help from my hubby. There's not a big team behind the scenes who do the work, it's all us, and we are so passionate about continuing to offer this space for men and women to speak out and be heard, and also for experts to join in and share their tips. So please do support us by rating and reviewing so others can find us. I'll be back in a few weeks with another new series. Please do get in touch if you'd like to share your story, either as a stepmum, a bio mum, a dad, or maybe even as a couple. I'd love to hear from you on the socials at Stepmum Space or through the website stepmumspace.com. In the meantime, a huge, huge thank you from me for all your support over the past five series. I absolutely love hearing from you all, and I feel so so privileged to be trusted with your stories. See you soon.