Episode 51: There were pictures of his late wife EVERYWHERE!

For stepmum support, workshops and coaching, visit: https://stepmumspace.com

In this episode, Katie sits down with writer Sheena Wilkinson to explore the real and often unspoken experience of marrying a widower and becoming a stepmum — after choosing not to have children herself.

Sheena shares what it was like to move into her husband’s former marital home, where every room held reminders of his late wife, and how she navigated the emotional weight of building a future inside someone else’s past. She talks openly about the shift from living independently to suddenly sharing space with two men, and the unexpected challenges that came with joining an already-formed family.

This conversation gets into the messy, human side of stepfamily life:

• navigating a house full of memories
• the emotional strain of not feeling fully accepted by extended family
• shouting matches, misunderstandings, and imperfect moments
• the discomfort of feeling like an outsider in your own home
• finding your place without erasing the woman who came before you

Sheena is candid, warm, and sharply honest — and this episode offers real validation for any stepmum navigating grief-shaped family systems, inherited spaces, or complex loyalty dynamics.

Find Sheena’s writing at www.sheenawilkinson.com
and on Instagram and Substack @sheenawilkinson

Transcript

Katie: 0:08

Hello, I'm Katie, and this is Stepmum Space, the judgment free zone where we talk candidly about the fairy tales and scary tales of Stepmum Life. So whether you've been a Stepmum for years, you're just starting out, or you want to understand a Stepmum in your life a little bit better, this is the place for you. Before we dive in, I want to tell you about something that could genuinely shift how Christmas feels this year. And it'll also give you tools to use throughout the year. Your Calm Christmas is a three-hour live workshop happening on Friday, the 3rd of October, and it's designed to help you feel calmer, clearer, and more in control this festive season. It's not a passive webinar, it's a fully interactive space where you'll get personalised support from me, therapeutic tools you can actually use, and real connection with other setmans who understand the emotional roller coaster, the pressure to make it magical for everyone else while quietly wondering if there's any space left for you. We'll build your calm Christmas plan together, set boundaries that protect your peace, and make sure you're not the only one doing all the work only to end up feeling invisible. If you're ready to stop bracing yourself for Christmas and start shaping it on your terms, this is your invitation to join me. Head to stepmamspace.com or tap the link in the show notes to book your spot. I'd love to see you there. Now let's get into today's episode. My guest today is Sheena Wilkinson, smart, funny, and refreshingly honest about what it's really like to marry a widower and step into a life that already existed. Sheena had known her now husband for years while he was married to his first wife, and she was friendly with them both. After his wife passed away, Sheena and her husband grew closer, eventually marrying and moving into the home he once shared with his late wife and son. In this episode, we talk about the emotional complexity of marrying a widower, what it's like to feel not quite accepted, and the delicate balance between honouring a stepchild's mother while also making space for yourself in their home and in their life. It's a conversation about grief, belonging, and the quiet negotiations that come with building a life in the shadow of another. And Sheena brings humour, insight, and a lot of clarity to it all. You're gonna love it. Let's get into it. So, Sheena, it's so nice to see you again. How are you doing?

Sheena: 2:45

Oh, I'm doing very well, Kitty. It's lovely to be here. Thank you.

Katie: 2:48

I've been looking forward to this conversation a lot because we've spent some time together in the past in coaching sessions. And as a novelist, you always have such an incredible way with words.

Sheena: 2:59

So no, no pressure there. I'll probably be completely incoherent now.

Katie: 3:06

No, no, no, you won't. So why don't you start by just telling us a little bit about your story?

Sheena: 3:13

Okay, so um, yeah, so my name's Sheena, and I'm probably one of your older listeners. Um, I'm 55. And until I was 50, Kitty, I was basically single, celibate, and completely happy that way. Um, certainly for the years between 30 and 50, I was completely on my own. I didn't go on dates. I was just a very kind of happy single woman. I didn't have a strong urge to have children, which I think was probably very helpful because it means that I didn't have that pressure to find a partner. And I didn't deliberately set out not to have a partner, but that's kind of how life turned out. And I really was very, very happy. Um, I won't say that I was never lonely because negotiating life as a single person for so long in a society which is very much geared up towards couples, it does have its challenges. And um, although I wasn't lonely, I had to work at that, you know. And then when I was 49, my a very good I'm kind of a woman's woman, you know. I'm not one of these women that has lots of male friends, but I have a couple of good male friends, and um one of them, I'd known him for many, many years, about 27 years. We used to run a folk club together in the 90s with some other friends, um, met him through music. And um, we'd never had romantic feelings for each other. I'd always thought of him in when I was in my 20s, I thought of him as, you know, the kind of boy that, well, man, that your mum would love. You know, he was really good living and kind of clean and respectable. And um, I'm probably making him sound a bit boring. And if I'm being honest, when I was 25, I probably didn't think he was a bit boring. He was just, you know, like you're you're really like good man.

Katie: 5:10

Oh, you know, it's so funny. I was having a conversation with some girlfriends the other day about guys when we were in our 20s that we wish we fancied.

Sheena: 5:20

Exactly. We just didn't. So he was that guy. He was that guy that I wish I fancied, but I I didn't. Anyway, fast forward a couple of decades. So he he met his wife. I was actually there when he met his wife. I mean, they were actually set up by mutual friends, and he'd never had a girlfriend before. And um, within two months, they had arranged to get married. Within a year and a half, they were married, and I just continued to be friends with both of them, and she became a friend as well. And although my friendship was mostly with him, you know, she she did become a friend as well, and that was all fine. And we would have seen each other maybe a couple of times a year, usually at a music session or some sort of a reunion of the folk club, that kind of thing. My parents knew him, they thought he was lovely. And you know, very often um my mum would say, How did you not either meet him or meet somebody as nice as him? And I would just laugh it off because honestly, nothing was further from my thoughts. And then very, very sadly, his wife got cancer, um, aged 49, and within a year she was dead, which was obviously, you know, really just awful and tragic. They had a teenage boy by this stage, and I never thought I'm I'm gonna end up marrying him, but that's what happened. Um, within a year of his wife dying, um, we had got together. I know that some people will be thinking, oh my goodness, that's so soon, that's terrible. Um I know that widowers do often get together with another woman quite quickly, and that that is often not for the best of reasons, and it often doesn't work out. In our case, it did work out, and I think one of the reasons why it worked out, probably the main reason, is that I had known this guy for 27 years. Yeah, I knew that he was fundamentally honest and decent, I knew he wasn't a player. I didn't know for certain that it wasn't too soon and that it might all go horribly wrong. And there were a few times when I thought that perhaps it would. But I always knew deep down that he was that his feelings were genuine, and that for the first you can't really put um an actual measure on these things, but certainly for many months, there was definitely a sense that he was, you know, the the the love, the new love and the grief were sort of walking side by side, sometimes jumping into each other, sometimes it's tripping each other up, sometimes in surprising ways. But if a friend of mine had told me that she was in the relationship that I was in with someone whose wife had only been dead for a year, I would have been thinks, oh I don't, you know, I don't think this is a good idea. But it it all worked out. We've been married now for two and a half years. My stepson is almost 19, and um it's it's been the most difficult time of my life, but it's also been the richest and most rewarding time of my life.

Katie: 8:36

Yeah, do you know that's such a common thing that stepmums will say. Um, definitely always the hardest part, and when it works out, it's often the most rewarding part. So I'm really interested to understand a bit more about when you obviously had made the choice to be single for all those years, and then suddenly you've picked this guy who you haven't had feelings for before, but you've known really well before. Like what what was your inner dialogue during that time?

Sheena: 9:04

Oh, kiddie, it was all over the place. Um, it was strange because I think I would obviously he was my friend and I wanted to support him um when such a terrible thing had happened. And because I'm so I'm a writer, so I'm freelance, which means that my time is basically my own. So where other friends would have perhaps gone to visit him after his wife died, and they'd maybe had, you know, they were calling up after work or they they knew they only had one hour to spare or something, I would call up to visit him for lunch and end up staying till dinner or into the evening, just because I had so much time. And obviously, what he wanted at that time was company, and he wanted to talk about his wife, and he wanted to just talk about everything. So we became close in a way that we never had before, and I think also because I was single, we talked a lot about being on your own and about being lonely. I often made the point with him that for me I didn't really feel no feel lonely because I wasn't missing a particular person, I didn't have a partner, I'd never had a very serious partner, I'd never lived with anyone. So I wasn't missing or grieving for an individual. I was just living a single life which I'd got very used to. Whereas when he came home and closed the door and his son went up, you know, to play on the PlayStation and not speak to him, he was feeling that emptiness because he was looking up and seeing the empty chair, you know, and everything that he was doing, he was having to do for himself. Well, I was used to all of that. So we talked about loneliness and about being on your own and about relationships and everything in a way that we wouldn't have done normally because you know we were good friends, but we weren't, we didn't have sort of deep and meaningful conversations. And the bottom line was I just started to fancy him, you know. I mean, it was I mean, I was obviously very, very much drawn to him emotionally, and he's very emotionally open and had become more so because he like a lot of men, he he wanted to kind of you know, men often want to fix things. I mean, I I I also am a kind of a fixer. So he he did all the things, you know, he he went to bereavement groups, he had counseling, and all of that helped him to be very kind of emotionally open and and talking about things, which was very, very attractive. So I was part partly drawn to that. I also could see he had a great deal of strength and he had the strength to be open about how, you know, about how sad he was and how bad he felt. Um, and he was able to articulate it, but he wasn't kind of just sitting there feeling sorry for himself. He was getting up and he was doing the things and he was making an effort, and and I I saw that real strength. And you know, strength is very, very attractive. And I thought that's the kind of guy that you would really like to have in your corner.

Katie: 12:13

Do you know what I'm thinking? As you're talking, and when I've worked with quite a few women who've married widowers, they talk about the fact that they've been the widow has been to counselling and kind of process that and is ready to move on. And it's just kind of occurred to me that when a marriage breaks down or a relationship breaks down, very rarely do men go and get counselling. And very rarely do men kind of work through the guilt that they feel about leaving their children. I I say leaving their children because that's how men feel mostly when I talk to them, not because they are, because we all know they're leaving their wife, but a lot of men can say, you know, I feel like I left my kids. I'm just wondering whether it would be easier for women who end up with a guy who's got children when the mum is still alive and well, if these men had processed it and been through some kind of therapy themselves. Probably.

Sheena: 13:06

Probably. I mean, it is kind of a truism that that widowers make make good husbands, but I I think it's it's certainly been my experience because you know, my husband he wanted to be married, he he loved his wife, he they had a very strong, good marriage, they had a very different marriage than the marriage we've got because you know we're all very, very different people, but um he didn't choose not to be married, and she didn't leave him, he didn't leave her. So there wasn't that kind of guilt and messiness, and you know, I listened to the to your podcast, I was so happy to come across your podcast, and at first I only listened to the stories of of widowers, and um, but there were there are comparatively few of those. So then I started listening to all of them, and it was so interesting because I had often felt, and I'm sure we'll touch on this later, but I had often felt the kind of um I suppose jealousy, which is ridiculous, because how can you be jealous of a dead person? But you know, the obviously when when someone dies, and particularly when a woman dies young and leaves a child, obviously everyone thinks about her as if she is an angel and as if she is perfect, and that can be really, really hard for the next woman to deal with. But even though I very much felt that when I listen to your podcast and hear the experiences of women where the ex-wife or ex-partner is still around and sometimes making things difficult, I feel very, very grateful that my predecessor is kind of safely dead.

Katie: 14:53

Yeah, and and I I understand that I think a lot of women, you know, wouldn't wish something awful to happen to somebody, but it is quite difficult when you're dealing with trying to run your home, but also you might have a home that's run completely differently, and the children are going between two, and you get emotional mind gains and you get all of those. But but to touch on your point about feeling jealous of a dead person, that's what we hear a lot, and I don't think it's ridiculous because it's complicated emotions, you know, especially because in most situations the husband didn't choose to end the relationship. So you've got all those question marks, you've got all those question marks around, you know, what what would have happened? And I'll put a link in the show notes, but Sheena, you wrote a beautiful, hilarious, moving, tear-jerking, candid, brilliant account of stepmotherhood when you are with a widower in an essay, and you won a prize for it as well, didn't you? Uh yeah, it won first prize in um competition. I think one of the things that was so brilliant about your piece of writing on stepmotherhood was just like the rawness and the candidness, and you lean into those really uncomfortable feelings that a lot of women then cushion with an extra layer of guilt. And so I I will link it. And even if you are not with a widower, I would urge anybody listening to go and have a look at it, go and read it. It's it's brilliant. And I know you'd said it was the first time you'd written something that was actually factual.

Sheena: 16:34

Yeah, I'm used to making things up, and um, it's it's definitely easier to make things up. But when I was going through all of this, I was sort of professionally I was in a situation where I'd finished a novel and it was on submission. Um, so my agent was trying to sell it, but it was locked down and everything. Well, you know, we all know how things were. So I became quite interested in writing memoir for a change, um, partly because there is so little out there about this kind of experience. So I decided that I would that I would write it. Um, so I had a few pieces published on that kind of theme, and I basically wrote the story that I would have welcomed reading when I was at the beginning of this experience and things were, you know, pretty. I mean, the things were fantastic. I was so, I was head over his in love. But at the same time, it was also, you know, it was also tough. And I really would have welcomed reading something as honest as this. And I am, you know, I am a very honest person. Um, I suppose when I write fiction, I I I want people to laugh and cry. So when I write about my own experiences, then I again I want to make it a story and I want to make it something which will be as raw and honest, um, but also kind of well crafted and thought about as possible. Um and I've always been used to being kind of in control of my own narrative, you know, both professionally as a writer, obviously in my personal life, because I didn't have anyone to think about except myself. And then suddenly you fall in love, you fall in love with someone who's got the baggage of a dead wife and uh grieving and not always easy for obvious reasons, teenage child, and suddenly you're not in control. There's somebody else who's at least a co-author, and there are these tricky characters who don't do what you want them to do, and that was very, very difficult for me to get used to.

Katie: 18:40

Yeah, I can imagine, and that kind of coming into a relationship and being so excited, and you'd waited so long, you weren't you were waiting for the love that was good enough to take you away from your life. Except I wasn't even waiting.

Sheena: 18:53

I mean, I honestly had from I was about 40, I had thought, right, that's not for me. And I didn't date. I saw a lot of you know, particularly middle-aged women having awful experiences on kind of the dating scene. There didn't seem to be any way to meet people that was normal. And to be honest, I was living on my own. I I was traveling a lot, I was just really, really busy making a living because I had left a very steady, sensible day job in order to kind of make a living as a freelance writer. So that obviously brought a certain amount of pressure. And there were times when I was working seven days a week, and I remember in my 30s when I was still kind of, I guess, young enough to maybe have kids if I wanted that. I do remember saying to myself when I was about 35, hmm you're about 35. Do you want to have kids? Because if you do, you probably need to do something about it. And I was like, no, I'm not really that bothered. I'd rather have a book deal. So I decided that by the time I was 40, I wanted to have a book deal, be a professional writer. And, you know, if a man came along and I could manage to fit him into my life, that would be fine, but it was not a priority. And of course, by the time I was 40, I did have a book deal. I was a professional writer. And kitty, men weren't looking at me. Um, because you know, I was 40 and I wasn't, I just wasn't interested. So it was such a shock when at 50 I'm suddenly in a new relationship. And, you know, I mean, I I talk about this in the in the memoir, but you know, I was I walked down the aisle in a in a nice wedding dress, um, but I there was a HRT patch underneath it, you know. So I'm I'm suddenly getting into a relationship. No one had seen me naked for what 20 years, and suddenly you're getting into all of this again with a 50-year-old body. So, you know, there was I know that this podcast is more about the kind of stepmother side of things, but you know, that was a thing.

Katie: 20:56

I'm laughing to myself because I often say to my husband, it's such a shame you didn't get to know me when I had a really fit body in my 20s.

Sheena: 21:04

And well, the funny thing is actually, I'd say I'm fitter now than I've ever been because um one of the things I did, and this was probably influenced by the fact that I was I knew that you know I was gonna be getting my kid off. Um I started running when I was 50. I mean, I'm not a good runner and I don't particularly enjoy it, but I do it three times a week. And um, yeah, I say I'm leaner, fitter, meaner machine now than I was when I certainly when I was 35 or 40.

Katie: 21:36

I definitely feel more comfortable in my own skin than I did in my twenties and early 30s. You I think you just become more accepting. And I don't know if you've read the book Mark Manson, The Art of Not Giving a Fuck.

Sheena: 21:52

But I definitely approve of the title.

Katie: 21:55

So I read that book and I loved it, kind of gobbled it up, and it's all around the premise of, you know, you've only got so many fucks to give in life. So what are you gonna give a fuck about? Like exactly the important stuff.

Sheena: 22:06

Exactly. No, that's very, very much how I feel. I've always been quite I've always been quite good about sort of boundaries and um not taking on other people's crap because you know, you've got your own crap and you there's only as you say, there are only so many fucks that you can give. And this might lead on to something which I know has been talked about quite a lot on the podcast, and it was certainly something that has been part of my experience, which is negotiating the other family. Now, in my case, it's not an ex as such, but obviously the the family of my stepson's mother.

Katie: 22:46

Yeah, so let's go into this a bit more because you know, one of the things that regardless of whether you're with a widower or a man who's separated, that a lot of women find hard is that their excitement and joy and happiness has come about because of the stepchildren's loss or grief or separation of their parents. Yeah. And that's a complicated mix to balance. So t talk us through how it was for you.

Sheena: 23:10

Very, very difficult. Um yeah, I mean, on one level, every so often when I was feeling very happy, I would sort of come up against that exactly that fact, you know, you only get to have this because someone died. And you know, she died very young and it's very tragic. But actually, that's not my fault. So I quite quickly I I decided that I wasn't going to let myself feel guilty about that because, you know, it's not my fault. Um, I, you know, I didn't kill her.

Katie: 23:44

And did you take particular steps to rid yourself of the guilt that you felt, or did did it just kind of come?

Sheena: 23:52

That's a really good question. I think one of the things that helps is that my husband and I would be very honest about these things. Um and we talk about his late wife all the time. And that has never really been that difficult. Um, and I and it's always been important for me that we talk about her with my stepson. Um, so for example, I will say, Oh, that pink sweatshirt is really nice. Your mum, your mum likes that colour, you know, she was really into her bright colours. So, you know, little things like that. And that's never been an awkwardness. And I would ask my husband even like little questions like, uh oh, I don't know, like, did she like chocolate? And you know, did did she get period pains? And you know, just I suppose it was like a kind of a getting to know her, and that all of that that openness has definitely helped. But yeah, sometimes you do just come slap against that feeling that I'm only getting this because someone else didn't get it, and that can lead you to thinking, oh well, I'm I'm just a plan B. But I just think that that that kind of thought is just not very helpful because you know, the reality is that very sadly she did die. That's not my fault. I'm here now, I'm as sensitive as I can be to the whole kind of situation, therefore, I we have to deal with how things are now, and we have to sort of move on from where we are now and just be realistic about it. And I mean, I'm I am a pragmatist, so I I am pretty practical and and realistic about things. Um and my husband's exactly the same, so that's that's really helpful. But obviously, there is kind of in the shadows, there is another family there who lost a daughter, who lost a sister, and that that has been difficult. You know, I don't really see them, uh, have seen them on a couple of you know, sort of slightly awkward occasions. And I suppose the thing that I find sad from a stepmothering point of view is I can understand that they are grieving, although, you know, it is six years, but anyway, I can understand that they're grieving, and I can understand that they might have had concerns that my husband took up with me quite quickly, but as things kind of settled, I would have I'm disappointed in the fact that they haven't seemed to be able to acknowledge the fact that given that the situation is as it is, and you know, and she has died and she's not coming back, they always come back to her, oh, it's all about, you know, the child, it's all about him, it's you know, and we're so concerned about him, which is fine. But if they were really that concerned about him, I would have hoped that they they could see that actually he is in a much better situation because instead of living with a lonely, grieving man, he's living with a happy, fulfilled man and a woman who nurtures him and looks after him and loves him and who gives him good guidance. My stepson and I have a really, really good relationship, and I think that that could be so much comfort to his mother's family if they allowed themselves to open their eyes and see that. But um I don't think they do. And again, you know, that's something that I definitely struggled with. And when I had some coaching with you, Katie, that's something which did come up more than I expected it to. So it was obviously there annoying me, but it doesn't really annoy me anymore. It occasionally raises its head, you know, because obviously there's always going to be flashpoints around anniversaries, birthdays, particular occasions, but on the whole, I'm not choosing to give any fucks about that because, as you say, you've only got so many fucks to give, and that's their stuff. And you know, they've got their shit, I've got my shit. And I'm as I say, I'm quite good at drawing those boundary lines.

Katie: 27:52

Yeah, and as a pragmatist, did you find that lots of emotions came up in the early years of your kind of stepmothering?

Sheena: 28:01

Oh my goodness. Um, yes. I remember the night that we had what my husband and I call the conversation, where for a couple of months I had kind of accepted, yeah, you do have feelings for him. You would like something to happen, nothing's gonna happen yet, it's much too soon. And you have to wait for him to make the first move, which was very difficult for me because I like to just get in there and do things. Um, so I was very much waiting, thinking maybe in a year, you know, and I and I I'm not I'm gonna be perfectly honest about it. I was kind of, I did by this stage think that he did a feeling for me, but that that it would be a long time before he could acknowledge them. And I was kind of, you know, we always joked about him having a list of, you know, who the second misses whatever was gonna be. So we always joked about, you know, where I was on that list. But in all seriousness, he he's a very practical person. And I genuinely believe that if I had said no, he'd have been very he'd have been very sad, obviously, because you know, I was a great catch. But pretty soon he'd have gone to the next person in the list. I'm quite sure about that. But anyway, so I was kind of on my guard, you know, bide your time, you can't make the first move, but just you know, be aware that you know that there could be other people on the list and make sure that they don't, you know, get climb up the list and make sure they're number one. Anyway, he he then had the conversation with me much, much, much sooner than I thought he possibly could, where he told me about his feelings. And um, it was quite sort of sweet and old-fashioned because this was just under a year since his wife had died, and he didn't want us to kind of start going out just yet. But he was kind of, I suppose he was it's gonna sound awful, he was staking his claim. He seemed to believe that there were all these other men that I was meeting at literary festivals and that kind of thing. I can tell you, Kitty, there really weren't, but it's nice that he believed that. So we had a kind of an understanding for a few months, didn't have a physical relationship, but we did grow very close emotionally and we We talked every night and you know I saw him when I could. But I remember that that first night he said to me, We I was just leaving, and I remember him standing at the front door and saying, Oh, I'm you know, I'm not I'm not young, free, and single, you know, I've I've got the baggage, and you know, the baggage was the son who came downstairs to say goodnight. He'd known me all his life, of course, which probably has also helped. And I remember saying, Oh, yeah, yeah, don't don't worry about that. Because you know, I was I was high on on this exciting new possibility. And whether you're 20 or you're 50, when you've really, really fallen for someone and you find out that they fallen for you as well, it's a powerful emotional dopamine hit.

Katie: 30:41

Oh my god, totally.

Sheena: 30:42

In the middle of all that, I was like, Yeah, yeah, yeah, baggage, what's that? I don't, you know, it's fine. I didn't really think about the realities of being a stepmother, which is bizarre because my parents separated and then divorced when I was quite young. And I mean, I just grew up with with two fathers. I was very, very lucky, really. And I have a my father's dead now, but I have a wonderful stepfather who I adore. He gave me away, you know, when when I got married, and um, you know, he's he's just been you know one of the most important people in my life. So I had that model of excellent step parenting, and yet the whole kind of being a stepmother thing, it didn't really hit me for a while that it was a thing. I mean, I I I knew, of course I knew I was going to be a stepmother. Maybe it would have hit me more obviously if he'd been. So at the time we got together, he was 14. If he'd been four, it would have been different.

Katie: 32:47

Yeah, and I guess you do. When you when you're falling in love with somebody and you know if you're gonna get with somebody with a child, you know you're serious about it because women don't muck around with guys with kids for fun. And you do go into it with all that, oh, it's gonna be great, you know. I'm I might not have wanted kids of my own, but I really like kids. I know this kid, he's a good kid, you know, all of those things. And I think we don't anticipate the fact that actually there's other people in this situation, a bit like when you were talking about your writing, you just think, well, I'm okay with it, so everyone's gonna be okay with it. Yeah, exactly. Yes. How did you and your now husband sort of announce, if that's the right word, to your stepson that you guys were in a relationship?

Sheena: 33:34

We did it reasonably quickly within a couple of months, um, because he was older, he was a teenager. Um, I was obviously starting to spend quite a bit of time there. And when my parents divorced when I was young, I was completely happy with them divorcing because they used to fight, and I was actually happy when they split up. But one of the things that I didn't like was my father was quite secretive and he wouldn't have told us things. So he had this on-off girlfriend, and we really liked her because she had daughters our age, and then we and we were all very good friends, and it was, you know, we thought it was great. We thought it was like being in the famous five or something, having these other two girls to play with. But the relationship was on and off, and he would never tell us. So you would be looking for the clues, you know. So sometimes they would come on holiday with us, and sometimes they wouldn't, and you didn't know, and you couldn't ask him because that's the kind of man he was. And I hated that, and I hated the way it made me sneaky, it made me listen and eavesdrop, and I didn't want that for my stepson. So, although I didn't want to hit him with too much information, I did want to be as honest as possible with him. I didn't want him second guessing, I didn't want him worrying and wondering. So I think we got together like officially in May, and at the start of June, he told first of all his um his late wife's family, and then he told his son. And uh he remembers him saying, he said, Oh, but but you but you're not allowed to um get engaged or married or anything. And my husband just said, Well, I I can't promise that. You know, when when people get together, they don't they don't know how things are going to turn out. From an early stage, I think we knew that we this was serious, you know, we were heading towards marriage. But you know, we just let them get used to sort of a little bit at the time. And I mean, we've had the usual teenage stuff, you know, there's no doubt about that. You know, we've had we've had rows and I've called them everything I've, you know, can I swear in this podcast? Well, I think I already have said, You selfish, we bastard, how dare you treat your father like that? You know, I've run up the stairs after him, you know, raging. Five minutes later we've been fine. And I think that's you know, it's it's no different. I mean, my husband says that when his when his mum was alive, she often ran up the stairs after him, you know, calling him everything. So there's something about that that I think is quite normal. At the beginning, we would have been very much on our best behavior with each other, and now we're not, because you know, I mean, I wash his pants, you know.

Katie: 36:17

So how do you manage that? Because I hear from a lot of women who will say to me, I've done a terrible thing, I've called my stepchild something awful, I've had a massive argument, I've slung mud their way, and they feel so guilty. And the relationship either takes a long time to repair or sort of doesn't repair. So, how did you manage that repair part? And do you think it was easier because there wasn't a mum somewhere who he could go to saying, Sheena did this, Sheena did that?

Sheena: 36:47

Definitely, yes. Um, uh yes, the fact that there was no one that he well, I mean, I don't know. I mean, he he he he could have all sorts of people that he complains about me too. I don't I don't think that's the case. Um I think one of the things about my stepson that I I value and it it it makes me smile actually is that he he's quite volatile and you know he's grieving, you know, there's there's no doubt about that. And um he's he's had counselling, which has definitely helped him. Um so he he can be quite angry and he can be quite volatile, but it doesn't last for long, and I'm quite similar. I will explode, and then five minutes later I'll want to make friends, and he's exactly the same. So he'll go storming off, banging doors, and then five minutes later, he'll kind of well, maybe not five minutes later, but he'll sneak back in and then he'll go, so um uh so have you you guys got any plans for today, you know? And he just he wants to kind of come be back in your good books, which is quite endearing, actually. And it's also something that you can work with because he doesn't want you to be fallen out with him. But another thing is I remember one time early, early, early, one of the things we haven't touched on, but it has been maybe the most difficult thing, is the fact that we're all living in what was their family home. For various practical reasons, we're not going to uproot a teenager from the area and the home that he has lived in all his life. My husband and I are both from a different part of the country, and we do plan to move back there in a few years, but the time is not right yet. So we always knew that I would have to move up to this area, and again, being pragmatic, it didn't make sense to move to a different house within this area simply because it was a bit difficult moving into what had been my predecessor's house with all her stuff and her taste, which is extremely different from my taste. So negotiating the space in the house was an issue at the start. It's a big house, but to give an example, my stepson was in the habit of coming into so we've got a it's gonna sound really posh, okay, and it's just the way it is. So there's we've got a a dressing room and an ensuite as well as our bedroom. And he would never ever come into our bedroom, obviously. But before I moved in, he was in the habit of using his parents' dressing room to dry his hair, and he was in the habit of using their ensuite, and I was just wasn't having that, you know. It was very difficult to go from living on your own for 24 years to being in the space with especially with two men, you know. Yeah. So I was drawing a line.

Katie: 39:34

How did your husband respond to that?

Sheena: 39:38

Um he just kind of accepted it. I think I mean to be honest, I did sometimes, and I maybe this is a bit mean, but I did often actually play the I've moved 60 miles from the place that I love and the place where I really want to be to be with you, so you can, you know, you can give in to me on this. But yeah, so he would have so he was in the habit of coming in and like throwing his dirty clothes down, you know, because there was a laundry basket in that room. And I would just like to throw them back at him and stuff. And so anyway, there was one day we kind of had a ri about it. And I said, Look, I don't, you know, this is our space, you've got plenty of space of your own. Don't come in here and put your dirty clothes in our laundry basket. And I bought him his own laundry basket, all of that. So anyway, so it was one day we had a big rye about it. Like, I can't remember what we said, but we did have a big rye. And then half an hour, and I was ironing his clothes, and half an hour later, I went to his bedroom with you know all these iron t-shirts and things and said, Oh, you know, here's your ironing. And he kind of looked at me like we just had a ride which she did my ironing, and I said, I said, Look, I was annoyed about something. I told you I was annoyed, but I'm not gonna stop looking after you, or or you know, that the two things are completely separate. And I could sort of see him registering that the the difference, but you know, just because I'm annoyed with a thing that you've done, and I did say to him, Look, this is difficult. We're all learning to live together, and we're gonna make mistakes, and you know, there are gonna be difficulties, but but we will we will just have to learn a different way of of living together and it will be okay. And it and it has been okay, you know, it's it's certainly not perfect. Anytime we have a row, it's always about it's always about my stepson. Anytime you and your partner row.

Katie: 41:30

Yeah. When you have these rows with your stepson, what role does your husband play? Because I hear from a lot of women who will have a row with the stepchild and they will feel that their husband totally undermines them and supports the stepchild and suddenly they're out on their own.

Sheena: 41:48

Yeah, no, that that doesn't tend to happen when I think about it. What is more often the case is often I'm actually, I mean, I talk about this as we don't have mean we don't arrive very often, but if we do, often it starts off between my husband and stepson, and then I might intervene. Quite often, funnily enough, quite often I will intervene as a peacemaker. That's very interesting because one of the things that I found fascinating about this whole experience is learning new bits of myself, you know, even in my 50s, um, aspects of myself, both good and bad aspects of myself that I didn't know I had or that you know I've never had to sort of use before. So obviously, quite a lot of nurturing, which I mean, I've always had animals, I've always loved animals, I've always, you know, nurtured my animals, but I've never really nurtured people. So that's been quite a that's been quite a nice thing. But um, but yeah, quite often, you know, because that you know, they're both men and they've both got tempers and they'll, you know, you can imagine the kind of like locking antlers kind of thing of, you know, of of of men. And then quite often I'll come in and say, let's calm down and uh you know, let's talk about this. And also when I'm in the wrong, and I'm quite often in the wrong, you know, because I'm I'm human and I'm a bit of a mouth. So quite often, if I'm in the wrong, I will say, like, we did we did him of a big row recently, and we were all at fault. My stepson had done something out of line. I was really cross about it. I started on him the minute he got in, which I shouldn't have done because as it turned out, he did a bad day at work, he was frustrated about something at work. He came in, I started on him, and then his dad started on him to kind of back me up, I suppose. And it all ended up in a big row. And it takes more out of my husband than it does out of me, I think because he's not my child, I suppose. But then he apologised, and I apologized. I said, I shouldn't have started on you the minute you got in. Daddy shouldn't have shouted at you. We're all at fault, but look, we're all friends again now, and it's and it's okay. Although it was difficult for him to get used to the idea of his dad with someone else, I think the fact that he's known me all his life, he knows that I knew his mum, and I will often talk to him about his mum. And also we kind of we kind of honour his mum's memory within the house in a way which is comfortable, I hope, for everybody. It used to be I used to, I used to come here on a Friday and stay for the weekend, you know, before we were married. And on the one hand, I'd be thinking, yay, get to see him, you know, and this is lovely. And but every single time as I drove through the gates of the house, my stomach would plummet because I was so conscious of the fact that I was coming into this space which was full of so many pictures of her. And I I find that very, very difficult. And gradually, obviously, that has it's no longer the case. We've got still got a couple of pictures of her, but there's one in particular where I always keep a bowl of roses in front of that picture, always. And I do it because I think it's a nice thing to do. I do it for my husband, I do it for my stepson. I mean, I don't know if my stepson notices, but I think at some level he does notice. So that's but it's a very kind of controlled way of okay, we're not gonna have 38 pictures of her, we're gonna have this nice picture in a prominent position and it's got a bowl of roses in front of it. So I think all of that helps. He's never seemed to actually really resent me. He's never said when we have, even if we have a rye, he never says, like, you're not my mother, you don't get to tell me. There's never ever been anything like that. And I appreciate that, and I tell him that I appreciate it.

Katie: 45:29

It's interesting that you mentioned the word control, like we're having this bowl of roses in a kind of controlled way. And I wonder whether that that helps you because it's a way of honouring your stepson's mother's memory in a way that feels comfortable to you.

Sheena: 45:47

Yes, definitely. Yeah. When I used to come here before it was my home, there were certain rooms I didn't like going into because of the pictures that they had in them, particularly pictures of the two of them together. And you know, there were certain like I'm talking to you now from the dining room, which is also now my study, and it used to have loads of pictures of her. And there were only certain seats at the table that I would take because if I sat in other ones, every time I looked up, you know, there she would be. I mean, it seems quite funny now.

Katie: 46:16

Yeah, the the photos is a really hard thing to navigate, and you're trying to lead with empathy and understanding to the loss that your stepchild has been through, but also like this is your life, and exactly, yes, yeah.

Sheena: 46:34

That's that's a been a big, big thing. It's the first time, I suppose, in my life where my feelings I've often felt that they've come last. And I know that that my husband, I mean, he's he's very, very good and generous and thoughtful, and you know, all of those things I wouldn't have disturbed the equilibrium of my life for him if he hadn't been. But um, but for a long time, not not so much now, actually, but for a long time, yes, it was as if I definitely came last because you've got you know the bereaved child who comes first, and then you've got the bereaved husband who comes second, and then you've got the memory of the perfect angelic dead wife, but she's somewhere in the mix, and then finally, finally you've got me. Um I'm probably quite a selfish person. I think if you've if you've had to live on your own for all those years in this society, you know, you you kind of have to become selfish because nobody else is going to do it for you. Yeah, you've got to be in your own corner.

Katie: 47:36

From the way you've been talking, it's not even like you had to live by yourself. Like you made a choice. I'm happily I was very humble, yeah. Happy to live by myself, and then suddenly you're living with two other people, both male. Oh, that's got its own challenges, and you've got all this extra layer of grief and complication to deal with.

Sheena: 47:56

Yeah, and plus at the whole at the same time going through the menopause. So you've got a menopausal woman coming into the situation, you've got a hormonal teenager, you know. So it's a potentially explosive situation. But I would say now we've we've we've shaken down pretty well. I'm very open, so if if something's annoying me, I will say. And I think that's pretty healthy. And I think I think my stepson knows that what he sees with me is what is what he gets. I think he appreciates that I'm honest with him. When it's appropriate, I'm quite affectionate with him. And I think he knows I think he knows that I care about him. And I tell him, you know, I tell him that, but I also show him because I think I used to think, well, I'm never gonna love this child, so but at least I can, you know, change his bed and and and do his laundry and make sure he has really good food and all of you know, I can do those things. But actually, I I would say that I did love him now, and I think that that's partly because you you do like love is like an action, so you do the things, and through doing the things, some sort of feeling emerges, and that probably makes the repair easier once you've had the big blowout because there is you know warmth and genuine emotion towards each other.

Katie: 49:19

I always love speaking to you and hearing from you. What I would love to ask you is there'll be women listening to this who are in relationships early or midway, you know, with a widower, who will be thinking, How do I get to that point? So, what advice would you have for somebody who's struggling with either jealousy of the predecessor, as you call her, or any of the other challenges that come with dating a widower?

Sheena: 49:49

One of the things that I have really learned, and it sounds so obvious, uh, but it's just that things don't stay the same, but everything changes. So it is such an obvious thing to say, but when I was at the beginning of all this, and you know, my stepson was, you know, a young teenager who we couldn't, you know, we couldn't really, we didn't have many nights out, for example, because you know, he wasn't old enough to be left on his own. And now we go away for a week and you know, I think it's just to accept the fact that things don't always stay the same. But also, I would say if there are things that annoy you or upset you about, for example, things like photos, I think say, I think don't be afraid to say. I just think that openness is is really, really important. So, for example, one of the things that bothered me, and and I'm sure that this would be the situation for so many of your listeners in who are dating widowers, um, is my husband wore his wedding ring. And at the beginning, it didn't bother me in the slightest because of course he would be still wearing his wedding ring. But then it did start to bother me. And there was one night we were out in a restaurant, and we were we're we're both really interested in people and people watching and that kind of thing. And um, we were looking at some of the people's people around us and thinking, oh, I wonder like what relationship they're in, or are they two friends, or are they possibly partners, or you know, that kind of thing. And I said, I said, Well, anyone looking at us will see you've got a wedding ring and I don't, so they'll think I'm your bitten side. And it was the first time I'd ever mentioned him wearing the ring. It was it was really interesting because he had obviously thought about this, and he said, When I put a ring on your finger, I'll take this one off. Now, I knew that he meant when he put an engagement ring on my finger, he would take off his wedding ring. And I remember thinking, Well, that's not the time scale that I would want. I would prefer him to be taking his wedding ring off now, really. This, you know, we'd been together for almost a year at this stage, but he's obviously thought about it. He has made a decision that works for for him, so I I can live with that. Now, as it happened, COVID came along and really plans were kind of postponed and that kind of thing. So he actually took the ring off before we got engaged because there was a time when it when it did then start to bother me.

Katie: 52:22

And I told him it's all about that communication very much so both listening and talking. So I will always say to a lot of the time it's the men who I work with in coaching, like you have two ears, one mouth, use them in that proportion. And that opening up and being open to not necessarily your narrative about what's going on for somebody else, but really, really, really listening to them can be incredibly powerful.

Sheena: 52:49

Very much so. Yeah. And it's interesting that you use the word narrative because that's, you know, when I was preparing for this conversation, that's I was thinking very much about how as a writer I'm I'm in control of narratives, and then I'm in this situation where every we've all got narratives, you know, we've all got our own stories and our own points of view, and even the I call them the legacy in-laws have got their point of view. Yeah, it's just having those listening ears for everything that's going on and just and having empathy, but also not being afraid to stick up for yourself because women often put themselves last. I never did, and I didn't really understand the dynamic of being a woman in a family where actually your needs often did come last. That was a big, big shock for me.

Katie: 53:40

You know, we've got a lot of children in our family, and different people's needs will come first at different times, depending on what exactly, yes. Just depending on what's going on and what everybody's needs are, and that can be difficult to juggle, but also that happens in first families as well. Nobody's gonna come first all of the time. But it's sort of okay in a first family, but in a stepfamily, sometimes it's like, God forbid you put the adults' needs first, you know, these poor children who've either lost their mum or been through a divorce. And and I think actually it helps children to see grown-ups sometimes putting themselves first.

Sheena: 54:20

Yeah, I completely agree. And also I think you can't you can't help other people until you've helped yourself. It's the idea of you know, you put on your own oxygen mask before you help somebody else with theirs.

Katie: 54:33

I always used to like preach that mantra, but I never used to do it. And I remember we were at Euro Disney and I was saying to the children, like, where do you want to go next? What do you want to do? And one of them said to me, What do you want to do, mum? You never say what you want to do, you just always ask us. And I said, Well, I want to go on this big scary ride, but you won't like it and you won't like it. And they're like, Well, we'll wait, you know? And you think, actually, then you are teaching them, you don't always come first in the world.

Sheena: 54:58

Exactly. That's so important. My stepson was um an only child. He came along very, very, very many years into their marriage. You know, they've sort of given up on having a child, so he he spoiled, I would say. And um that has been quite a challenge for me. But then we joke, and we my husband and I talk about, you know, all these. If I had had children, obviously they would be perfect in everywhere. You know, we do we do laugh and and and joke about that.

Katie: 55:26

I said actually the other day, I was I found myself, Sheena, cutting with a pair of scissors the crust of a circular crumpet for one of the children. And I was doing this thinking, what the fuck am I doing? And when I was raising my hypothetical children, I would never ever have been putting in the crust of a bloody crumpet. But there suddenly you are like looking at yourself from the outside in going, like who did you and what happened? It's just nuts. Well, look, I've loved every minute of talking to you. Thank you so much.

Sheena: 55:58

I used to always listen to the podcast, and I used to think, I'd love to talk, I'd love to talk on this podcast.

Katie: 56:04

Well, I'm really glad you offered. It's been a pleasure. And and if anybody else is sitting there thinking, I'd love to talk on this podcast, please do get in touch because we can only make the show if women are courageous enough to sort of put themselves out there and speak up. So thank you so much for doing that.

Sheena: 56:19

Thank you for having me, Kitty. It's been really, really enjoyable.

Katie: 56:27

Oh, huge, huge thanks to Sheena for sharing her story with such honesty, humour, and insight. These conversations are not always easy, but they are so important, especially for those of us navigating the layered realities of stepfamily life. I hope you took something from this episode, and if it resonated with you, please share it with someone who might need to hear it. And if you'd like to hear more conversations like this, hit subscribe, leave a review, or come find me on Instagram at Stepmum Space. I'd love to know how you're enjoying the series so far. And if you're a Stepmum bracing yourself for Christmas, don't forget your Calm Christmas workshop is happening on Friday, the 3rd of October, and bookings close on September 30th. This is your chance to get real support, build your plan, and make sure you're not the only one doing all the work only to feel invisible this Christmas. You'll find all the details at setmumspace.com or in the show notes. And of course, if you've got a story of your own that you'd like to share on the podcast, please get in touch. I'm always looking to amplify real voices and real experiences. Thanks for listening. See you next week.