Episode 53: Parental Alienation, Court Battles & Loving Kids You Can’t Always See

In this episode, we hear from Katy—a stepmum whose journey began when she met a father of five through work. What followed was a life-changing experience filled with love, loyalty, and heartbreak.

Katy opens up about the emotional toll of parental alienation, the reality of family court proceedings, and the pain of being separated from stepchildren she’s grown to love. Her story is raw, honest, and deeply relatable for anyone navigating the complexities of stepfamily life.

We explore:

• What it’s like to support a partner through custody battles and alienation
• The emotional impact of not seeing all your stepchildren
• How Katy held space for her husband while protecting her own children’s wellbeing
• The tension between wanting a united family and feeling like the sacrifices aren’t shared
• Why stepmums often feel stuck between love, loyalty, and boundaries

Whether you’re dealing with high-conflict co-parenting, feeling unseen in your role as a stepmum, or simply trying to make sense of the emotional load—you’ll find something here that speaks to you.

If you’re a stepmum searching for support, advice, or just a reminder that you’re not alone—this episode is for you.

If you're looking to book coaching head to www.stepmumspace.com or send an email to katie@stepmumspace.com.

Don’t forget to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It helps other stepmums find these conversations. And if you have a story to share, I’d love to hear from you.

🔍 Keywords: stepmum support, parental alienation, family court, custody battles, stepfamily dynamics, high-conflict co-parenting, stepmum advice, emotional support for stepmums, blended family challenges, stepparent boundaries, not seeing stepchildren, loyalty binds, stepmum podcast

Transcript

Katie: 0:06

Hello, I'm Katie and this is Stepmum Space, the judgment-free zone where we talk candidly about the fairy tales and scary tales of Stepmum Life. So whether you've been a Stepmum for years, you're just starting out, or you want to understand the Stepmum in your life a bit better, this is the place for you. Before we get started, I just want to say a huge thank you to everybody who's taken the time to rate, review, subscribe, share about the podcast, tell their friends about a podcast. More and more people are listening, and I'm getting so many lovely messages from people saying, you know, I just stumbled across your podcast, and that is all because of people like you sharing. So massive thank you. And if you haven't had the chance yet, I would be so grateful if you would take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe to the show so we can get to more women who need us. On to today. My guest is Katie. Yes, brilliant name, we know. When she met a father of five through work, she had no idea how much her life was about to change. In this episode, Katie shares what it's been like navigating court proceedings, parental alienation, and the pain of not seeing all of her stepchildren. We talk about the impact on her husband, how she supported him through it, and the emotional complexity of being a stepmum in a family where the dynamics are not always straightforward. As always, it's an honest conversation with lots of layers to it, and I know you'll take something meaningful from it. Welcome to the show, Katie. Good morning. How are you doing?

Katy: 1:49

Yeah, well, thank you. Yeah, very well. Bit concerned that my stepdaughter might be burning the house down with her vegan pancake cooking, but you know, it's alright.

Katie: 1:59

So look, you've been through a lot over the last few years. How did you and your partner meet each other?

Katy: 2:07

Um, my husband and I met when we were doing a project together. So he was working for quite large developers, and I happened to be purchasing some houses through this development um developers. Well, you started off very much as friends. From the moment that we sort of met, it was really obvious that he had a lot going on. I mean, he was like up to his eyeballs in it. One day we were signing some paperwork, and you know, when you get that sense from somebody that they just need to go, and I just said to him, let's let's just stop, let's just have a coffee, and because you look like you're about to collapse. And anyway, I I think I touched the button, which sort of made him just completely enough to leave, I think, decompress. And he sort of just told me the ins and outs of his situation, and I was a bit like blindly shocked. I I'd had friends that had been in relationships where there was children involved, and the relationship was sort of very um on edge, going in cycles of behaviour where for a certain period things would be fine, and then things would blow up, and then everything would be out but basically a bit out of control. And it sounded like um my husband had been going through these the this motion for some time. He sort of said, like, for the sake of my children and my own mental health, I need to do something about it.

Katie: 3:28

So at this point, was he separated?

Katy: 3:31

He basically was one step away from being separated. He had uh acquired a house through a friend which he was moving into on the 1st of January, and I think he was sort of just needing reassurance that he was doing the right thing, and I think that's why everything has sort of built up. And it was funny because some years later I found an old phone of his and um was going to recycle it, and I sort of opened it, and as you know, the woman sort of started having a little bit of a note through. And at the time when he was telling me what was happening, I was thinking, no way, it can't be that bad. I'm sure it's fine, I'm sure it was, you know, I'm sure you're just being a little bit, you know, over exaggerating. And then when I saw the messages from the mother of his children, I was like, wow, and that was obviously a few years later. So what he basically was saying was was quite true. And when you've never met somebody before, it's it's easy to paint a negative picture, but I always try and be positive and think of you know what she must have been going through, just the experience that I've had with dealing with the children. I mean, they're really lovely people, but to have five children, the stress of that, and then ones which may or may not need a little bit more care than others, to try and find that balance. I I did feel for her a lot. Um, but then when I saw these messages, I thought, you're also not helping yourself because it does, as I found out, it does take a village to raise a child. And in order to be able to do that properly, you need to have the support of your partner, and your partner needs to also be supportive of you as well. And I think the breakdown of their relationship was that there wasn't enough support, and both of them, because of their they were sort of victims of their own upbringings, where they both came from broken families, and because they'd never both sat down and had some some sort of therapy, you know, the therapy that you have to have when you've come from a broken home, no matter what anybody says, neither of them had had it. So when dealing with each other, it was like this rather than trying to sort of understand each other's views, and then you've got the poor children stuck in the middle who are sort of you know victims of circumstance, and I it just sort of I think just got to the point where one of them was gonna have a breakdown, and it just happened to be that it was my husband.

Katie: 5:52

You've touched on something really important then, which I think a lot of the time stepmums do miss out, is that we often only hear our partner's version of events, and we know you know, a man is not gonna paint himself in any negative light when he starts dating a new woman. I think sometimes men can have a tendency to um overeg the negative points of their ex. Do you know there's a lot of jealousy that stepmums can experience or insecurities around being the second wife, or did he love her more? And I think that leads even more so to men saying, you know, she was crazy or she was awful. And sometimes it's the combination that actually is awful, or a bit of both. But of course, there are obviously situations where yes, the ex was awful.

Katy: 6:42

Yeah, I mean, I must admit, my husband did say that that his ex was a fantastic mum, and I'll be honest, he never said one bad word about her until 2009, uh 2021. And I'm talking never one bad word. He had always explained it that he was in a stress situation and that there was a lack of support, but he would never say, he would never use any bad language about her, no matter how much stick she was giving him. And when I'm saying like messages that uh essays when you have to keep scrolling, and then it says read more, you know, even then you can see his face, the anxiety, but he'd never say anything bad about her. It was only when she started to really vomit her emotions over the children, and the children started to change. That's when he was like, What the BF is she doing? This is ridiculous. And unfortunately, now you know, we're several years on, and he really, really has uh a deep dislike for her, but it's only because of the situation that she's put the children in emotionally.

Katie: 7:54

So it sounds like there was quite the change over the few years. How did it all play out?

Katy: 8:00

So um, so when my husband left slash got pushed out of his family home, he was on his own for some time. I was there supporting him as a friend, but I just was like, this is too much of a mess for me. I've done quite a number of years, uh nearly I think 31 years or so, avoiding kids, avoiding like messy, dramatic, shameless type situations. So I said to him, you know, I really like you, but I can't, I can't do this.

Katie: 8:33

And five kids is you know, yeah, yeah.

Katy: 8:35

Well, uh given two of them actually aren't his, but he raised them from there from age five and 18 months. Wow. So when him and his ex met, he was 17, 18, and then he had his first child when he was 20. So yeah, he was very much on his own for probably a good year or so. And I actually was engaged to somebody else, but sort of in the background, because of how much he'd explained the situation to me, I felt, you know, I felt sort of deeply sorry for him. So we remained friends, and I sort of remained in a bit of a sort of sounding board. And then just after COVID, we sort of both were like, you know what, you only live once, and it's about damn time we started being happy and allowing ourselves to be happy. So we got together officially. He wanted everything to be as fluid as possible, and so he told his his um the mother of his children just after we got together, and um, she was sort of like, you know, that's fine, but you know, I don't know why you need to tell me. And he was like, I just want to be respectful.

Katie: 9:39

That's one of those situations where you can't do right for doing right.

Katy: 9:44

This was the other thing. She'd actually asked him, as and when you meet someone, you better tell me. And then he did, and then she was like, Well, don't know what you're telling me for. It's like, you know, 13 for 13, you can't you can't do right for doing wrong. A few weeks had passed, and she'd obviously had time to think about it. And uh, he received a message basically saying that um, you know, you move on, etc. etc. But that woman is to have nothing to do with the children ever, that she'll never be accepted in their lives, keep your personal life out of the children's lives, etc. etc. And he was a bit like, well, how's that going to happen? Anyway, it all sort of went a bit quiet for a couple of weeks. We were both keen for me to meet the children, but we wanted it to be in the right circumstances. We'd also then confirm that our relationship was solid, so it wasn't a case of like, oh yeah, we're not sure, but let's meet the children, you know. Like, so we did we we waited as long as we could and we consulted a mediator to ask what would be the best way for us to for me to meet the children, and she'd very much said the children need to be in an environment where they can essentially run away uh from you or be in a space where they can get away from you, and it was like, yeah, that makes sense. Um, so we'd organised to go bowling again. The mediator had sort of said not to make it a big ordeal, you know, sort of just tell the children that your friend's going to be there and then they'll just meet her, etc.

Katie: 11:06

etc. Because I guess if it goes wrong, you've got a lot of heavy bowling balls that could get chucked around there.

Katy: 11:12

Oh, yeah, for sure. And um, actually saying that it wasn't the bowling balls that got chucked, it was the emotional bowling balls that went, oh, it was it from what was such an innocent situation, it got obfuscated into this enormous scene where my husband was ripping his oldest daughter from the car and she couldn't have her phone and she was crying, and this happened, and she was traumatized and could now never go bowling ever again. It yeah, it actually was fine, but when she obviously got home and told her mum it became like this big thing. And that was basically the start, that was like the beginning of the end.

Katie: 11:55

Yeah. And at the time your partner had already told his ex that he was seeing somebody, so it's not like you know, they went out with their dad and came home and said, Oh, by the way, I've been hanging out with Daddy and Katie.

Katy: 12:07

Yeah, it it was just, I think, just based on what our biological mum is like, she wants control of everything and she wanted control of that situation. I think she wanted it so that she didn't want anything to do with me, but I think she wanted it so like we would be in a park and I would then meet the children with her overseeing it and all that kind of stuff. And because my husband didn't sort of say to her, This is what's happening, he just did it. It was something which was out of her control, and thus, of course, she had to take back the control by putting into the children's heads what happened, right? You know what I mean? Endless amounts of court documents at different tales of what happened at the bowling alley from one child being punched in the face to the other child screaming and crying, when actually none of that happened. There was a little bit of tension initially between my oldest stepdaughter and her dad, purely because she was 13 years old, she was very conscious of what she was looking like, she was meeting somebody new, her personality is a little bit different to the other two children. She's a bit of an introvert, but she's also quite flamboyant and cares a lot about her appearance, what people think, and all that kind of stuff. So for her, it was, of course, it was a big deal, but it wasn't the big negative deal which it's which it then went on to become through the court process, etc. And I think even she knows it now that it was really blown out of proportion. And it also then led on to mum saying, That's it, you're not seeing the children now, and then we didn't see the kids for eight months. It went from being just quite innocent, us trying to seek advice and doing things properly, to again, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Katie: 13:56

Yeah, and all of the different narratives that people tell can actually reshape what kids recall as the truth.

Katy: 14:04

Oh, 100%. I mean, our our youngest two now, they we've not now seen them since November of 2022. Um, and the last sorry, sorry to interrupt.

Katie: 14:15

And how old are they, Katie?

Katy: 14:17

So they are now soon to be 13, as in next month, and nine. Um so they're they're the last people that saw them, which would have been either the guardian or social services, where they had to tell like the story of what's happened. It's insane because this bowling alley and the meeting of me, the incident is still being talked about four years on, and it's still being like the the bad things that daddy did to us, even though the other two children weren't really involved and they were fine, it's now in their heads that it was like the worst thing that they've ever experienced. It is sad because we know the truth, and the fact that my older stepdaughter is now living with us, she knows the truth. But the person that we need the most to understand and to accept the situation for what it is, is mum, and she just won't. She she that her her hate for us is uh is higher and is above the love for her kids. And that is what is really, really, really sad. And it's and it's telling now because uh my stepdaughter who's with us, she's very open. We've got quite a bond of trust, which has formed through us talking and us being very open about pretty much everything from boyfriends to periods, sex, drugs. And how how old is she? She's 16 now. I would say more sort of mentally 13, 14, because of what she's been through. There are elements of her which is very, very mature, and when you catch her in one of those sort of mature moods, it's a really good time for us to chat about how she actually is properly feels about stuff and where it's all sort of sits in her mind in terms of the views of her mum and dad. See, she's a therapist now every Monday, because again, we are very we're advocates for therapy, especially when situations like this, because people don't talk about it, you know, childhood traumas. They just go, Well, here's the carpet, brush it under. And then whoever you end up with in the long run, your husband, wife, whatever, is the one that ends up unpacking all of those bags. And sometimes there can be so much to unpack that it can really damage your relationship because the other person has no idea how to deal with you or the situation. We sort of said, you know, it was important for her to do the therapy.

Katie: 16:50

So you've mentioned that you've got your elder stepdaughter living with you and you haven't seen the younger two for a couple of years, and then you mentioned uh earlier that your husband was stepfather to his ex-wife's children from a previous relationship. Does he see them?

Katy: 17:09

No, no, no. So just to be clear, they weren't married. Okay. That's the only thing she didn't get from him with his name. When they met, he was 17 and she was 27. She was already married and with two children. I know it's all the plot thickens. When my husband and her got involved, I think she was, in all honesty, I think she was suffering from a from postnatal depression. And not saying that my husband was a crisis, but I think for a woman of that age and with two children and a husband to then go for a teen, I think that sort of screams you've got some issues.

Katie: 17:48

I'm just sitting here thinking, how did his parents feel about that? Because I can't imagine any parents of any teenager of either gender would be very happy with them getting together with someone a decade older with two kids.

Katy: 18:01

Yeah. I I think that it's something that not that my husband's mother uh will ever openly admit, but I feel like she feels deep regret for allowing him to pursue the relationship. I think he's very different now to the person that he was, but I think back then he was quite cocky, a bit sure of himself, and I think there wasn't anybody that could tell him it would have probably been difficult for his mother to turn around and say, you know, you're not gonna be with that woman, because he would have been like, well, I bloody well am. And that's unfortunately the result. So by the time he was 20, um, she'd gotten divorced, and they were, I think, living together, and then they had their first child who's living with us now. I think it helped him in a way form as a person because then he then was pushed to get a career because he had a family, etc. But he did lose out a lot in the respect of that period of growing up to be a dad.

Katie: 19:03

Once he's separated with his ex, you guys are living together. You've you mentioned you've got the older stepdaughter living there permanently and not seeing the younger two. So mum just decides, right, dad's not seeing the children.

Speaker 2: 19:17

Yeah, yeah.

Katie: 19:18

You know, I obviously hear this happens a lot. I can't personally wrap my head around it, but I but I do know it happens a lot. What yeah, what did you have to do in that situation?

Katy: 19:31

Oh gosh. Um, so before you can go to court, you have to try mediation. And of course, we did that. The response from mum to the mediator is that this isn't needed. If dad wants to see the children, he needs to contact me.

Katie: 19:48

But surely he had already done that.

Katy: 19:51

Well, he'd said to mum on several occasions, if we can't do this just you and I one-on-one, maybe we should go to a mediator so that they can then thrash out everything between us and so we don't have to keep going into these uh long text message battles. And it wasn't a threat, it was just him wanting to have a bit of support because our biological mum is a very powerful character. She comes across as being all sort of like sweet, innocent, and butter wouldn't melt. And as soon as you don't do what she wants you to do, then you have to sort of uh brace yourself for the consequences of that. And so my husband was just like, if we can maybe have a mediator, it might just be able to help because someone's gonna be giving a non-biased opinion to both mum and dad, and it will be it could work. And she was just like, no. Anyway, after obviously all those months, it just gotten to that point where she's obviously done what we thought she was gonna do, withdrawal contact, so we didn't have a choice, we had to go to a mediator. They wrote, she wrote to mum a couple of occasions, spoke to mum on the phone. Mum was like, not interested. So then she then signs off on what is known as a C100 form, which then allows him to go to court. So at the time we were still, I think we're about to go into our second or third lockdown for Christmas, so of course, everything sort of took about three or four times longer than it would normally. So we didn't actually get a court date until 20 January 2021, which was fine. But mum had started to do things like she changed my stepdaughter's telephone number because as far as she was concerned, if dad wanted to communicate, dad should communicate only with mum. How old was your stepdaughter then? At the time she would have been just turning 13.

Katie: 23:00

Yeah, that's not on. I mean, I don't understand how one parent can just decide, right, I'm gonna withhold my child from the other parent, like mum or dad, either way. Like it's I I mean, that should surely be a crime of some sort, unless there's an obvious safeguarding concern.

Katy: 23:20

It should go down as child abuse, because the reality is that all children need both parents, and like I said before, it takes a whole village to raise a child, of which one of those needs to be a mum and one of those needs to be a dad. But for some reason, our bio mum feels like she can do it all of all on her own, but the reality is that she cannot, she doesn't have the ability to be able to do it on her own. So once you'd got this C100 form, so that then goes off to the court, and then the court write to you to say, here's your court date. My husband had had a couple of calls from I think CAFCAS, I don't think social services were involved at that at that stage, but sort of just to phone to say what's happening. We'd also consulted with a what they call a McKenzie friend. A McKenzie friend is somebody that goes to court with you, they can't say anything, they're not a solicitor or anything like that. And they sort of just point at court documents and say, Do you remember this? Then the first court hearing was over Zoom. Um, basically them asking what dad wants, what mum wants, and of course, it was whatever dad wanted, mum didn't want. Going into it, what did your husband want? He just wanted access to the children. He was quite happy to have what he'd had before, which was for him to pick the children up from school on a Thursday, return them to Mum's house or to school on a Monday. That that's what he wanted. Every week? Oh no, every other week. Again, to please mum. Every 10 days we'll see them for four, not problem. For him to apply for passport so we could do a little bit of travelling, um, for them to to see for him to see them on Father's Day, for him to for the children to see their mother on Mother's Day, um, sort of alternative birthdays, depending on where they were at the time and when their birthday falls. So all of this sounds entirely reasonable. There was not one thing on there, Katie, which was unreasonable. It was all very bulk standard. If anything, I would say he probably could have should have asked for a bit more access, but he just had mum's thoughts and views and opinions in mind all the time, which was like, oh, don't want to upset her by having too much contact with the kids. But the biggest thing was that he wanted to have the two girls, both of an age where they could have mobile phones, so he said he'd provide them with mobile phones so that they could call him, text him, unrestricted access. His son, given the age that he was, um, he said he'd provide him with a kiddiecom. Basically, mum said no to all of this, and the court were like, Well, you need to give us reasons why. And she was just like, They're my children. And the court was like, Yeah, well, we understand that, but they're also his children, and thus you need to find a way to put whatever it is, your personal feelings aside. Because during the court process, she was very much he had an affair, he hadn't an affair, he shouldn't have a see his children because he had an affair, and they said, Whether there was an affair or not, it doesn't impact on dad's ability to be a parent. You're bringing your own emotions into this, of which you need to withhold. And mum was obviously not very happy about that at all, but it was the reality of the situation. So then there were two subsequent hearings. Contact was then finally reinstated, which started off at being like 2 pm till 5 pm. Oh, it was just ridiculous, and then finally there was a share cared order which was granted, with the court being very reluctant to make either parent the primary carer because there were concerns that about mum's ability to be able to co-parent.

Katie: 27:10

Okay, so can they not in that situation have joint custody?

Katy: 27:16

So he my husband would have got joint custody, but because of where he was living at the time and the age of the children, the judges sort of said that it wasn't appropriate for a 13-year-old to she needed her own space. And he only had a two-bedroom at the time. If he'd have had a three-bedroom, they would have 100% given him joint custody based on all of the evidence which had been been presented. The school had written as well, and basically confirmed that he was a good dad.

Katie: 27:42

During that time when he's going to court to essentially fight for access to see his kids every other weekend. Was he having any contact with the kids during that time period?

Katy: 27:53

No, there was no contact until the court had undergone their investigations, you know, like CB Yong checks and all that kind of stuff.

Katie: 28:02

Okay. And what was the kids' attitude like to dad at that point?

Katy: 28:08

Okay, so on the first meeting, he took them out for milkshakes. Mum had had it written into the recital that I was not to be there, that that that dad was to spend time purely with the children on his own. Can you even do that? A recital and actually an order are two different things. So recital is just what we would like to happen, but the order is what must happen. So the court was sort of like, well, we can't put it in because whoever dad decides to spend his time with, as long as they're not a rapist or murderer, or they're going to cause the children any harm, you can't dictate that. So, anyway, for the comfort of the kids, just based on what they'd experienced and everything, and also obviously their first meeting of me being a success/slash disaster, the infamous spoliali. I was at my husband's house and he was at the park with the children, and he asked the children, because this is another thing which have been noted that my husband's very much doesn't care, that doesn't ask the children what they want. It's not it's all about what he wants. So he asked the children directly, Katie's at my house. Would you like to come back? And all of them were like, Yeah, he said. I'm sorry, okay. They came back, little rays of sunshine. They were all sort of looking at me like excited, but sort of holding it back, but sort of like a bit anxious. And we were sat on the sofa and we had some donuts and some sweeties, and we all just sort of chilled a bit. My older stepdaughter was a little bit more reserved. She was very chatty with me one-on-one, but not so much when her brother and sister and her dad were there. My husband at the time had a dog and asked the kids if they wanted to go for a walk. My older stepdaughter said no, she was gonna she would want to stay with me, and so it was like, oh, okay. Anyway, we just sort of chatted and that. She was sort of saying that it had been quite difficult over the last few months, and then she sort of clamped up a bit. And I thought, oh, let's let's talk about something else, let's talk about singing or music, or you know, let's take the edge off this. And then literally that was it, the hours were gone, and dad was driving them back to their mum's house.

Katie: 30:13

It's so difficult in that situation because you you you feel sometimes like they want to open up, but also like their loyalties are so conflicted. If they open up, they're kind of going against their mum.

Katy: 30:26

Well, that was evident on the second time we saw them because they were their attitude towards me was completely different. They were like, you could tell that they'd obviously gotten back and they'd been grilled to no end about what happened, what was said, who was there. And surprise, surprise, an enforcement notice got put through to the court to say that I wasn't to be with my husband when he next saw the children. And obviously, it got dismissed because the court had already said, but the fact that mum paid 250 quid for this enforcement notice, which just meant nothing, it was just like I I am I could. Understand her her anxiety in the respect of the children her children meeting somebody new, but the fact that she'd never engaged with me or want to engage with me in order to find out who I am as a person, I do get it. She sees me as competition, and there's nothing that I will ever be able to do which will change her mind about that. She thinks that I'm riding around on some like unicorn made of gold and I've got like all this money, and just that I'm able to give her all her kids all the things that she can't give them. And it's like, well, it's not that's not the case. I work really, really hard and I like nice things, but she would be able to do the same if she got herself a job. Do you know what I mean? Especially, I mean, the fact that our youngest son is now nine years old, she's been able to have a fully functioning lifestlash work, a job, for at least the last five to six years. And she just chooses not to. She would much rather obtain the money from the government and make the children suffer by saying that they need to go to food banks and uh spend money on alcohol rather than what the children need, but then it's all mine and their dad's fault. And it just is not the case. We just work really, really hard for what we have, and also we're disciplined. You know, I think certain things which has made this process so much more difficult is how how different our households are. You know, mum's household is very much in chaos and there's laundry everywhere, and just they they've just there's no structure. Whereas our house is regimented, probably a little bit too overstructured. But as far as I'm concerned, we won't be able to do all the things that we need to do if we don't have that structure in place.

Katie: 33:12

I feel like you've just described my house during half-term and then my house after half term.

Katy: 33:19

At the end of the day, you know, you have to relax at some points. And I am I won't, I I I have found it very difficult, but having the children in my life has done is that it's actually made me a lot more relaxed about you know, if the floor isn't pristine, it's okay. You know, if all pushing isn't done, it's okay.

Katie: 33:38

It's so hard. So I I'm like one who I love structure and routine, and well, I I I actually don't love having it, I just love how it makes me feel and like the output. So I cannot bear piles of anything, I cannot bear like overflowing laundry baskets. Like I can't even really bear it when I know there's stuff in them. So I have to do the washing all the time. But what I find that does do is it makes me feel a lot more kind of tense when I see chaos around me. So I think in the in the I was saying to you when we were chatting before we started recording in the half term, I made a very conscious decision just to tidy up once at the end of the day. Because I was like, otherwise I'm gonna spend my whole week just tidying constantly. Um, and also saying to my kids, no, you're not having the TV, you're not having any screens, you're not having anything like that until you've put your toys away, until you've hung your clothes up, until you've done this. And then actually, you know, you'd be surprised how quickly they can do it when they're not allowed to watch gladiators until they've done it.

Katy: 34:45

Oh, yeah, for sure.

Katie: 34:48

Oh, honestly, but yeah, I, you know, and you hear it a lot with um stepmums and bio mums having different house rules. It's normal in pair in in any families, you know, no two families are the same, but it can be really hard when you are the the sort of more routined house and you are putting back together the pieces of chaos from the other house.

Katy: 35:13

Yeah, and that's pretty much what we've spent, you know, the last few years doing. Um and that and that is in every respect. One of the things which has been highlighted is about the children going to school and the lateness and just I mean, uh it it's not to be it's not to be rude or disrespectful towards mum at all, but when you've sort of pride yourself on being a mum and that being your one and only job, getting the kids to school on time and in uniform should be a given. Yeah. But the amount of times that my husband had messages, these late notifications on the apps about the children being late, not being in uniform, they've been running off to this learning zone because they can't cope with the anxiety of being in the classroom. Just they basically have taken on so much of mum's bad habits, the her general day-to-day bad habits, into school, and now it's sort of going into their general lives. Mum was diagnosed with depression a long, long time ago and takes anti-anxiety medication, etc., which is which is fine. But the fact that now I don't know about her older son because I've never had any interaction with him, and to be fair, I haven't had any interaction with her older son, uh, oldest daughter either, but I've known enough about it from my husband. She suffered from anxiety, from eating disorders, etc. etc. All the things which have come along from the um behaviours of alienated children, because that's essentially what our what our children are, they've been alienated, and whether his mum has done it deliberately or not, one of or a number of the uh say consequences of alienated children is that they do suffer from anxiety, they do suffer from depression, and it leaves them a little bit more open to all of these sort of disorders.

Katie: 37:23

Essentially, through the building of your relationship with your husband and his desire to see his children, his ex-partner, it it sounds to me, almost alienated them.

Katy: 37:39

Yeah, very much. Um, whether she meant to do it deliberately or not, she she very much did. I believe that initially she was using the children as an emotional crutch, which made them not want to leave her. I believe that they heard a lot of things like the phrases of, oh well, if mummy's not here when you get back, know that mommy loves you so much, that sort of thing.

Katie: 38:04

Oh my god.

Katy: 38:05

Um, because otherwise, why would a seven or eight-year-old boy sit at school worrying about his mum?

Katie: 38:10

Oh my god. The impact on the children must have been huge.

Katy: 38:15

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, they said that the children said to a number of professionals, you know, mum would cry before contact, mum would cry after contact, she would blame anything and everything on dad, and somehow I would also get dragged into it. Because we're dealing with three children here with all very different characters. So my older stepdaughter, she's a little bit more emotionally frail than her sister. Uh was a very, very strong character, even at the age of uh, you know, that nine, ten, eleven. She sort of said that there's nothing that will ever stop me from coming to see you. And she at stages uh was set on coming to live with us because she wanted to spend more time, very much a daddy's girl, spend more time with her dad, was really enjoying the activities that she was doing when she was here and didn't want to live in an environment which was sad for her words. My stepson he was too young to know exactly what was happening, but he he was very aware of what of the situation and how unhappy mum was and all the bad things that we had we had done. Allegedly. In mum's eyes, all the bad things. In mum's eyes, yeah, uh all the bad things that we had done. The girls were more aware because they were older, so they'd been told details of what mum felt we had done wrong. It was all fuelled more by the lack of support from the family court, the misdirection of on so much information which mum had given to the court. It just made it harder and harder. Um, like for instance, my steps, he was very he'd be very upset whenever he was going to have his hair cut, but then after he'd have his hair cut, he would be like, Look how handsome I look. But then it would be followed up with an email from mum to dad saying about how he shouldn't cut his hair and shouldn't do this and shouldn't do that. It somehow made it into a court recital that dad was not to cut my stepson's hair, but there was no enforcement of mum taking away our middle daughter's mobile phone for the 10 days so she couldn't communicate with dad. So again, misdirection and things like that. As a child is becoming more and more alienated, they need to have more and more contact with the other parent, and that's what the phone was for, so that she was able at any point she would be able to text or call her dad when she needed that bit of support. But the court just wouldn't enforce these, you know, important things like communication, but they would but they would push for things like not allowing dad to cut his son's hair.

Katie: 41:13

That literally, my stomach turned when you said that I can't imagine taking away. I mean, I I I gave my oldest son a phone in lockdown, and he was younger than I would have wanted him to be to have a phone, but I wanted him to be able to pick up the phone and call his dad whenever he wanted. He could have always used mine and he knew that. But if I'm honest, I don't really want to be a go-between on text message from my son and his dad. It's easier for them to have a direct.

Katy: 41:53

As it actually stated in the court documents, uh, she didn't want the children walking around her house on the phone to their dad. And so it's things like this that slowly, slowly got into the children's heads. That dad and I being like the worst possible thing. And despite how much progress we were making when the children were here, you know, if anything, we were building really nice relationships, we were building a nice routine for ourselves, but it was like every step forward for us, mum had to make sure that she was pushing 10 steps back. Things like um my husband had a big back operation, um, which gave him like a new lease of life. He'd asked if he could speak to our middle daughter because she was very concerned about the back operation. By this time, uh our oldest daughter had said, Don't want anything to do with you, don't ever want to see you again. So we just had the two younger children. Our middle daughter had said she wanted to speak to dad after his operation to make sure that he was okay. Somehow, when my husband woke up, he had a message like this from mum making it somehow his back operation all about her.

Speaker: 43:08

It was like okay. It was that sort of classic, you know, me, me, me, me, me, me, you, you, me, me, me.

Katie: 43:16

You know what I'm thinking? As you're talking, I'm just thinking, this woman really needs to get a job. She's got way too much free time.

Katy: 43:22

Oh, well, you know, my husband's got a saying, it's called empty mind, shout the loudest. I like the reality is that our mum's mind is very empty. So the fact that you can send a seven-page email about somebody else's backup operation, it's just like and all he all dad wanted was just to basically speak to his daughter after the operation to say, yeah, all is fine, no problem. But again, because it was something that he was doing and it was being him making progress, mum didn't like it. So at that stage, the alienation kind of then took a next step up with her um saying that I wasn't allowed to attend sports day, it's only for mums and dads. Um, and if you're going to come, then you have to come alone and all this. It was all just a bit like, right, okay. And then in the August of 22, we got married, which really was a that was like the worst thing which could have possibly ever happened. Because as she said to the psychologist, I think she'd always hoped and prayed that their relationship they would get back together again. Him getting married was like a firm seal that this is never you're not getting back together.

Katie: 44:31

If if she wanted him back, she was probably going about it in the wrong way from the start.

Katy: 44:36

Well, I said this to my husband on a few occasions. I said, I feel sorry for her in a way because somebody needed to take her in the hand to say, you know, if you want a man back, you don't freaking shout at him. You know, you've got to be nice to him. Like, you're not no, you've got to be nice to a man if you want if you want something for him or you want something done, you have to be nice.

Katie: 44:56

Even from what you were saying, it sounds like she didn't have a healthy support network who would turn around and say, Do you know what? He might have really hurt you and he might have moved on with somebody else. And we get that that's painful, but do you know what? If it wasn't Katie who was moving on with, it would be somebody else. And you've got to think of your kids.

Katy: 45:13

Yeah. I think everybody that she associates herself with is scared of her, and that's why she associates herself with them. She wouldn't want to associate with somebody who was going to say, have you thought about doing this? And it's and it's it's evident with our oldest daughter now living here because as soon as she started to question mum's behaviour, you know, mum, you can't afford school shoes. Have you thought about maybe not going out this Saturday? Have you thought about maybe getting a job? And as soon as she sort of started to say things like that to her, her mother is very much like, How dare you? You know, you don't know anything about life, you don't know anything about what I've been through. And it's like, well, maybe I she doesn't, but she knows what's right and what's wrong and things which are essential, e.g., school shoes, versus going out and spending, you know, 150 quid on fishing rocks for your boyfriend.

Katie: 46:02

Yeah, you can't really argue with that. And it must be very impactful for your elder stepdaughter to now realize actually what her own mum was doing to her.

Katy: 46:15

Yeah, yeah. And I think also where she's been doing the therapy, and she's been doing the therapy on her own because all the other therapy which had been offered from CAMS and social services, she'd always done it with mum. And of course, I mean, you're not going to want to sit there and do therapy with somebody who you know as sort of is causing some of the issues because she's then got to look at them an hour later in the same household.

Katie: 46:38

I'm really surprised that they didn't offer her counselling alone.

Katy: 46:43

Katie, I think they probably would have, but I think mum would have been like, no, she's too mentally ill to do it on her own. She needs me there. I have to be there. If I'm not there, it's not happening.

Katie: 46:57

Sorry, I'm I'm I'm you you can't even see this, let alone anybody who's listening. But I've got my fists clenched like this under the under the table, like how can people do this?

Katy: 47:09

Yeah, oh yeah. It's it's ever so sad because all the all the all the institutions which are there to support fathers and mothers are just so underfunded and are not able to give the right support that they should be doing or that they should be. And so I I just like sort of remember the notes that one of the social workers that we saw was writing, like scribbling down. And I just thought, you know, we've we've been talking for two hours and you've got maybe a quarter of a page of notes. There's no way that you're going to have remembered everything which has been said, and of course they didn't. So then when the documents have come out and we're looking at it, God, you've missed so much detail. And with our case, it's it's it's it is very complex. You know, you're talking about three children who've all got on average a space of four years between them, and a dad who has been a victim of domestic abuse, and a mum who has just somehow been able to get away with so much, even though we know you know I'm looking at this timeline, and it's like, how could they not see what was happening? I mean, I know that there's no single definition of alienation, you know, you can't just say, Oh, it's this, but the one child, especially my middle stepdaughter, the alienation is clear. She's gone from being like, Love my dad, best thing since sliced bread, nothing I I dislike about him. In fact, I want to spend more time with him to literally, Katie, two days later, I hate you, F off out of my life, you've destroyed everything, you ruined my uh you hurt my mum, you did this, you did that. It's literally like black and white thinking. And it's because it's like they're having an internal fight, and the fact that they've already lost one parent, they will not want to do anything which may possibly damage the relationship with their other parent, especially if that parent is their primary carer. And so our message is that never ever just don't give up because we were we were teetering on the point of giving up. I mean, we we stopped court, and at that stage we'd spent just over 50,000 pounds, and we'd had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, nine court appearances. And the fact that my stepdaughter came back of her own accord when she'd started to figure things out, it was like what the bloody hell did we do all of that for? The one thing I could say that the court did offer, which was the IFCA service, which is like this chances give choices, it's like the very last thing that the the court will ask for, even though it should actually be the very first thing after mediation. They introduced my stepdaughter back to us, and it was it was quite slow and gradual. But but the fact that that happened in August, and in January, she had her bags at our front door and was moving in. That they do no matter how bad things get, kids do figure it out slowly but surely. And now in our case, we're just waiting for our other two children to to somewhat figure it out. I don't know, I don't know whether it will be as easy as it has been with my stepdaughter, my older stepdaughter, because of the difference in characters. My middle stepdaughter is very, she's quite a feisty one, and that's why she said she saw us for such a long time and was very much like, nothing is gonna stop me from seeing you. But also, she's also been the one that sent quite nasty letters. I mean, the last letter that we received was last month, and it basically was sort of like, I'm never coming back, you ran off with another woman, you ruined everything, I'm never gonna see you again. And she's now sort of constantly asking her sister, you know, did you give dad the letter? Did you give dad the letter? And she she gave it to me, and I just said, I told my husband, but I was like, We we don't need this. So I sort of like saged it and went around the house like a witch.

Katie: 51:40

Well, don't forget, you are a witch, you're a stepmom, you are a witch.

Speaker 2: 51:44

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah.

Katie: 51:46

So you get that sage out, go.

Katy: 51:48

Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. But then, you know, dealing with horrible things like that, but then having my older stepdaughter come to me and say, you know, thank you so much for giving me a second chance in life, and because of you, I'm no longer depressed. You know, it was just like, okay, this is really hard work, but just those few words mean so much and make it all such so worthwhile.

Katie: 52:17

And does your eldest stepdaughter still have a relationship with her mum?

Katy: 52:20

Yeah, but this is the thing now. This is where you can see that it's mum's personality because she went back to the house, her mother's house, a few weeks ago to get some more of her belongings. And her mother sort of just closed in on her with very much like, oh, I see you you're wearing new boots, oh, they can give you what you what you want, I can give you what you need, but then very much like, well, the house has been you know, much better spirits since you left. Wow. Um, but then next thing, next minute, crying on on her shoulder, but then next minute, oh, let me help you pack up your stuff so you can you know get out quicker. And then the boyfriend is standing at the bottom of the stairs with his arms folded, looking like some kind of bodyguard, very hostile. It just sounds so unhealthy for them. Yeah, yeah. And and now, you know, that she's she just she just said to me before I came out to speak to you. She said, Oh, I've I've messaged my mum about Mother's Day. I don't really want to go to the house because I don't want to have to deal with all of the you know the toxic vibes there. And I said, Well, why don't you meet your mum for a coffee and a cake or to have lunch or something together? It'd be nice for you to just have some one-on-one time without her boyfriend, without your siblings and that. She was like, Oh, yeah, I see, I see what she says, but I doubt it very much. And she's basically now, as my stepdaughter said yesterday, she feels like her mother is playing mind games with her, you know, very much sending her pictures of the past and miss you, love you. But in the next breath, um mum's sisters came over from the island that they live on. My stepdaughter had arranged to meet her aunties down here, they were going to get the train. Don't know how, but somehow it suddenly became about me and my husband with the whole are you mad, thinking that my sisters would want to get in a car with your dad and with Katie after everything they did to me. Oh, and you children. This was supposed to be about my stepdaughter and her aunties, nothing to do with mama. Yeah, she's starting to understand how dad felt, which is good, but also not good.

Katie: 54:40

We've been through an awful lot, and it's it's a lot to pack into a short conversation. So I hope we've been able to do it justice. But I'm just curious, like, where do you go from here?

Katy: 54:54

Where do we go from here? We're just gonna have to just basically keep going as as we are. So we've got my stepdaughter into um a tutor. She's she goes to this really amazing place. Um, it's like a log cabin in the woods where they specialise in in um tuition for children who have missed school or education and that sort of thing. She goes there on a Tuesday, Wednesday, and a Thursday. She's a therapist on a Monday. Um, me and her go to the gym on a Friday for the PE aspect of school. But she was basically been deemed too damaged to go into mainstream schooling because of all of this. She's missed roughly three years of school because of depression and her mum not properly supporting her with it. So right now we're just picking up the pieces of which what we thought was going to happen, and we'll probably have to do it with each child as they get to that age. And we're prepared, we've prepared ourselves for that. We're just thankful that at least one of the three children is back in our lives, and we have no doubt, based on how strongly my stepdaughter felt towards us and the hatred she felt, the fact that she's now here. We know the other two children, in some ways, my older stepdaughter had a very, very small excuse for her behavior, and I'm talking like microscopic. The other two children have no excuses for their the for their behavior towards us because they know that we always loved them, we always cared for them, and they had a really nice routine when they were here. Yeah, so as and when they do come back, and I don't I don't doubt it, I know that they will, but just when and what state they will be in, they will remember, they will recall all the good memories that we made, especially the fact that my stepdaughter we didn't get to make that many nice memories. But the fact that one of the reasons why she came back was because of the nice memories she's she remembered. It was like, okay, over the two years, the younger two children, we certainly made some wonderful memories. So we're just kind of just having to play the waiting game and doing what we can when we while we can. But we would like to ideally have a child of our own. I can't pretend that this whole scenario hasn't somewhat put me off, but it's also given me the tools that I've needed to cope with some of my own like childhood traumas and overcoming it, but also that we've basically dealt with like the worst part of having children. So why don't we try it and see what the nicest, like the nice parts are? And if the and if these are the worst parts, and I don't think anybody would say that we had not been through the absolute mill with all of this, it it would be nice for us to be able to do it and nurture and bring up a child the way my husband and I would want to.

Speaker 2: 57:51

Yeah.

Katy: 57:51

Because I don't really think, even though my husband's got three children, I don't think that the way the children have been brought up has been his choice.

Katie: 57:58

I see that with a lot of dads um who I work with who will, you know, they obviously love their kids, but they see how they've grown up and they wish they could have had more of an impact on you know, helping shape their values, their views of the world, what they think's important, and and it's really difficult. But look, Katie, thank you so much for being so honest and sharing everything you've been through. It's such a lot, and I wish you every single happiness for the future and potentially a baby of your own. And I hope your other stepchildren do come back into your life as soon as as soon as as possible and just you know feel for you all and sending loads of love. And obviously, there'll be people listening in the same or similar situations who I'm sure will have taken a lot from just your strength in handling the situation.

Katy: 58:47

I think one thing I will say though is I've read a lot about stepmums and not feeling supported by their husbands, partners, etc. And honestly, if you're if you're not supported by your partner and it and it's their and it's their children that you're dealing with, get the hell out of there. Because unless they are supporting you, you're not gonna get this is the one job that you are not gonna get one ounce of thanks for ever. So you've got to do it, you've either got to be in it 100% or don't be in it. And if you're and if your partner or your husband or your wife doesn't support you and your views, then you seriously need to question whether you should be with them or not. Because being a stepparent is I don't want to say that it's harder work than being an actual parent, but it is bloody hard work because you're contending with somebody's, you're you're you're dealing with somebody's most precious asset, even if they're not doing the job that they should be doing to uh help that asset, so to speak, you've got to put your feelings towards that person aside and do what is best for the child. If you're in any way not feeling connected to your husband or to your wife, and it's their kids, then you're not going to you're not going to do your your best. You're going to be feeling resentful, you're going to be feeling bitter, and kids feel it. They can see it. Then they and they know, and they will they will they will use it against you by either taking advantage of you or by being horrible to you.

Katie: 1:00:36

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And we talk a lot about you know having empathy for what the kids are going through and having empathy for how difficult it is for your husband or the ex or your husband, wife, partner, but it doesn't mean that you have to take everybody's emotions as the family punch bag.

Katy: 1:00:53

Yeah, absolutely. And I I won't lie, I mean, I I I felt at times like I can't do this. This is this is shit. I can't do this. I'm I'm packing my bags and I'm I'm leaving. I can't, but actually, it's probably More because I hadn't dealt with a lot of my own childhood traumas which were triggering me. And once I'd actually dealt with what was wrong with me, I then was able to find the strength to be able to help and deal with everyone else. And my mother has a classic saying, which is, you know, the whole when you're on an airplane, you put your mask on first before you help other people. And that's one thing definitely I could say about being a step parent is you've got to have your mask on first before you even attempt to help anybody else. Because if you don't, then you're basically just gonna you're gonna drown.

Speaker: 1:01:45

So it's not it's not worth it.

Katie: 1:01:47

So, you know, as we always say to step-mums, get your own mask on, take care of yourself. It's not selfish to look after your own needs. You need a partner who has your back. That doesn't mean they can't have their children's back, but they certainly can't be put in the middle of you, and it's just never gonna work. So I think what you say is spot on. And look, I wish you every happiness for the future, and thank you again for coming on.

Speaker 2: 1:02:15

Thank you. Take care now.

Katie: 1:02:27

What a brilliant conversation with Katie. Five stepkids, that is a lot, and it really just highlights how complex these dynamics can be. I hear so many stories of alienation and how painful it is for dads and stepmums to witness it happening to children they care deeply about. If any part of this resonated with you, I'm sending you love, you are not alone. If you found something here that spoke to your experience, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. It helps others find us. And of course, if you've got a story you'd like to share, I would love to hear from you. We're recording series eight as we speak, so please do get in touch at Stepmum Space on the socials or details in the show notes. Thanks for listening. Have a great week, lots of love.