The Italian N-Word

Megan and Carrie talk with Massimiliano Canzanella about the Neapolitan language and how it is perceived in Italy.

• Asian languages and the LA fires

Chapters

• 10:10 Interview with Massimiliano

Transcript

Megan Figueroa: Hi, and welcome to the Vocal Friars Podcast, the podcast about linguistic discrimination. 

Carrie Gillon: I'm Carrie Gillon.

Megan: And I'm Megan Figueroa. Oh, Carrie, are we supposed to be enemies now? 

Carrie: Yeah. Well, as far as I can tell, yes, we are in the beginning of a trade war. Possibly more than that at some point.

Megan: 0h my God.

Carrie: Yeah, I don't know if you saw, but Trudeau was caught on a hot mic basically saying, "No, Trump is serious. He wants to take over Canada for our natural resources."

Megan: Really? I don't know what to say. I'm sorry. 

Carrie: Yeah, it's not your fault, but yes, thank you. 

Megan: I know. Yeah, as an American, I'm so sorry.

Carrie: Sorry that your fellow nation members didn't vote properly.

Megan: Yeah, I was going to say I voted properly, but yeah. I'm sorry that they didn't, or they stayed home and didn't vote at all, is what it really is.

Carrie: It's, a lot of people stayed home. Yeah. Just couldn't be bothered to vote for a black woman.

Megan: Yeah, exactly. 

Carrie: Anyways...

Megan: Yeah, anyways indeed. 

Carrie: Not that this is like a lot lighter, but, oh well, one of our patrons sent us an article from the LA Times, which I recognize we have some issues with the owner of the LA Times, but they still do some good work. 

Megan: Yeah, they do. 

Carrie: So the article says, "Asian communities face language barriers during LA wildfires." UCLA study says.

Megan: Wow. 

Carrie: Yeah. These might not be things you think about, because you're just thinking about people evacuating the fire. But yeah, there are people who do face language barriers. Any time there's an emergency, that becomes an issue. 

Megan: Yeah, disaster, anything, COVID, those kinds of things.

Carrie: Yeah, and we talked a little bit about sign language. I think it was in the bonus last time around this same issue. But it's not just deaf and hard of hearing people, there are people who speak other languages other than English too. 

Megan: Yeah, and I can't believe there's already a study on this. 

Carrie: That's true. Hey, really quick. That's true. 

Megan: Well, it's important stuff. It's important to kind of reflect on the wildfires and see where we can learn from this experience. 

Carrie: Especially yeah, and doing it quickly kind of matters in something like this. So there are 50,000 Asian immigrants and their descendants living in the four evacuation zones, which were the Palisades, Eaton, Hurst, and Hughes. Of that 50,000, 12,000 needed language assistance. 

Megan: Wow. That's not a small number. 

Carrie: No, it's pretty big, and there was apparently a, quote, "dearth of multilingual communication alerts". Then on top of that, it was just the people who were living in the evacuation zones. Across LA County, there are over half a million Asian Americans with limited English proficiency.

Megan: Wow, I had no idea. I just had no idea. I always think of the Latinos that have limited English proficiency, but not thinking of the Asians that have the limited English proficiency, which is on me. 

Carrie: Well, you have your particular area of focus, right? 

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: But yeah, like all immigration populations, immigrant populations, well, almost all anyway have people within them that have limited English proficiency. Yeah. Apparently, the fire alerts were sent only in English and Spanish. Obviously, those are the two biggest languages. It makes sense that they would be sent in those two languages. 

Megan: Right.

Carrie: However, that's a problem if certain people aren't going to be able to read either.

Megan:: Yeah. Oh my God, I'm just thinking about such important information that's being conveyed in these messages that are not being understood. It's horrifying. 

Carrie: Yeah, and apparently some people even avoided the evacuation centers because there were no interpreters.

Megan: Oh, I didn't even think of that. Wow.

Carrie: Yeah, that would be so scary. 

Megan: Yeah, where'd you go?

Carrie: I don't know. My only hope is that they're more interconnected so they have other family members that they can reach out to. 

Megan: Yeah. That's true.

Carrie: But that's not necessarily true for everybody, right? 

Megan: Right.

Carrie: Apparently also, there was no online information about the fires in whichever language.

Megan: So even if you could go online, you didn't have access to that information because of the barrier of language. Yeah.

Carrie: Yeah. So, there were some groups, like some nonprofits that were putting together pamphlets and resource guides and things in multiple languages precisely because the government wasn't doing it. No one else was doing it. So they provided this information in English, traditional and simplified Chinese, Hindi, Korean, Thai, and Vietnamese. 

Megan: Oh, wow.

Carrie: On information on shelter, housing, child care, etcetera. So there are people doing this work, but that's still probably not every language that would be needed. Those are just the big ones. 

Megan: Yeah, but at least those were good. They've got those.

Carrie: Right. But you would have to know to go to the AAPI Equity Alliances website to find that information. 

Megan: Oh my gosh, yeah. I'm sure not a lot of people knew that. 

Carrie: Right. Like, it was probably pass mouth because, yeah, I don't know. Because also, like, I don't know, I'm hoping they're not using Twitter. 

Megan: Right.

Carrie: No one's centralized anywhere anymore, right?

Megan: Right. 

Carrie: Yeah, anyway. 

Megan: We need more resources available to people during crises. 

Carrie: Yes, and I'm not saying this is an easy problem, right? Because obviously, there's multiple languages. It's a lot of work, but something needs to be done, right? 

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: We can't have text messages going out in only two languages in an area where it's multilingual. 

Megan: Right. Yeah, definitely not. That is not helpful.

Carrie: So according to LA County, they actually said that they do have multilingual staff that are helping them. So there are some materials translated into Chinese, Korean, Tagalog, and Vietnamese.

Megan: This was after the fact? 

Carrie: I mean, they're saying that they've translated some stuff. I don't know how long after the fact that meant, right?

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: But it also means if they have those staff members, that they can do better going forward. 

Megan: Yeah. That's true. 

Carrie: They can start creating materials now where they change the details as needed. Right? 

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: Then also, they say that their Twitter is regularly posted in multiple languages including Korean and Chinese. Again, I'm like, "But it shouldn't be on Twitter."

Megan: On Twitter, yeah. Why is anyone using Twitter? 

Carrie: Stop using the Nazi bar.

Megan: There's no good reason to be using Twitter. 

Carrie: Well, unfortunately, because it's still semi centralized, I guess they feel like they have to.
I don't know. I mean, because you have to have an account to read things on there now. So, it's not actually as central. I think it's not actually as useful as it used to be. 

Megan: Yeah. When you could at least read a tweet if you were sent a link to it, even if you weren't signed in. Yeah.

Carrie: So now, as of last Wednesday, the Board of Supervisors weekly news conferences will be available in more than 60 languages. 

Megan: Wow. 

Carrie: That's incredible. 

Megan: That's amazing. How in the world are they doing that? Like, I'm glad they're doing it. I just don't know how they're doing that.

Carrie: Yeah, they must have a lot of interpreters. 

Megan: Yeah. That's great.

Carrie: Yeah. So it does feel like baby steps, but baby steps in the right direction. So I do want to say, good. Let's do better next time.

Megan: Let's do better next time, and it sounds like they're on their way to doing better next time.

Carrie: Yes. Yeah.

Megan: Well, very cool. I'm glad that they seem to have learned from this experience. 

Carrie: Yeah, it seems like things are getting... Well, we'll see, but it seems like things could possibly be getting better. 

Megan: I know, but I don't know. Who knows what could possibly happen with that? It might be like a DEI issue and get slashed. Yeah. 

Carrie: Well, the only thing is that that's not federal, so...

Megan: Yeah, good point. It may be safe. 

Carrie: It may be safer, and they could even just change the name of it and call it something else. 

Megan: True. Yeah.

Carrie: So ridiculous.

Megan: It is.

Carrie: So ridiculous.

Megan: Yeah.

Carrie: Anyways, thank you, Diego, once again.

Megan:  Yeah, thank you for the article. 

Carrie: If anyone wants to support our work, support the editing and the transcriptions and the hosting, etcetera, you can go to www.patreon.com/vocalfriespod. 

Megan: Yes, we really appreciate each and every one of you. 

Carrie: Yes, and today's episode, I think, once again, very interesting. 

Megan: Yes. I learned a lot. 

Carrie: I definitely learned a lot. 

Megan: I learned so much.

Carrie: This one was a little bit shocking, even for me. 

Megan: Yeah. 

Carrie: So, yeah, enjoy.

Megan: Enjoy. 

Carrie: Today we're very excited to have Massimiliano Canzanella, who's the author of the books 'L'î ’a Vulé' and 'Nun me dìcere niente', which are also available in English under the titles 'Set Your Soul to It' and 'You Don't Say.' Through a student-run charity, Language for Water, he taught Neapolitan language and culture at Glasgow University from 2019 to 2023, and we're here to talk to him about the Neapolitan language. So, welcome.

Massimiliano Canzanella: Thank you so much for having me. Thank you.

Carrie: Oh, Thank you. We're really excited to have you.

Megan: We barely touched the more endangered languages of Europe. So let's start off with the most basic question. What is Neapolitan? 

Massimiliano: Neapolitan is the language that supplanted Latin towards the end of the first century common era. Latin was almost exclusively reserved for written purposes and the Neapolitan vernacular took over the spoken sphere. Although it was also reserved for some written purposes, such as in the case of the 'Placito di Capua', which was a document which was used to settle a dispute about the number of lands in the area. Eventually it was used by illustrious figures such as Thomas Aquinas during the length of 1273 in the church of San Domenico Maggiore. He gave a series of lectures and sermons, lectures on highly complex topics. 

It was mostly then reserved for spoken purposes, even though most scholars will say that Thomas Aquinas must have used some form of written preparation for these lectures and talks. Then the rest is history, as they say. So the rest is what happened in Tuscany in the early 14th century with the advent of this new class of merchants, traders and bankers and writers who promoted the language and the literature and their businesses with a vengeance. Just without any concern really for any other local culture. Neapolitan sound was one of the first languages that the Tuscans encountered on their way to expanding their financial aims. 

So according to the historian and philosopher Benedetto Croce, during the early 14th century, during the Angevin dynasty in Naples, the French king Charles I invited a number of bankers from Tuscany, a significant number of bankers, and that way that created the first friction, the first cultural shock. But that, interestingly, was also the very first instance of racialization of the Neapolitan language. In a letter by Cino da Pistoia, written in the year 1330, he's already referring to Naples essentially, to the Neapolitan kingdom as a survival land. A little bit worse than that, then again, Croce mentions that in a letter sent in a sonnet actually by Luigi Pulci sent to Lorenzo Magnifico in 1471, he essentially-- this is my translation-- but essentially just says, "I have heard dogs bark better than Neapolitan speak."

Megan: Wow.

Massimiliano: So it was an actual love at first sight. It's quite astonishing to see that that sort of bigotry has never left that sort of region, that sort of cultural entity that is essentially the Italian bourgeoisie has always had a specific hatred for the Neapolitan language and culture. 

Carrie: Wow. I'm still reeling over. Yeah.

Megan: The language used there is so like, I shouldn't be shocked, and yet I am. But yeah, continue. 

Massimiliano: I'm afraid that as you know, we're not living in exactly the times when people have a predilection for history. So naturally, since the identification of Italy, this information is gone. It had to be buried somewhere and Croce himself, who was not certainly in favor, was a middle class person and he was in favor of the annexation for the south of Italy by the kingdom of Italy, etcetera. But at the same time, he admitted that as a result of the annexation of the south of Italy by the kingdom of Italy, then bigotry would have seeped into the culture and turned it into something monstrous essentially, which is now has been, I believe epitomized by the forging on this new Italian N-word, which marks I think, just a really seriously perverse moment in our history as Italians and I suppose as Westerners as well. The infamous N-word that we've talked about.

Megan: Which is? 

Massimiliano: Well, the N-word essentially was introduced, I believe 1993, for the first time, and prior to the unification of Italy, Neapolitans were referred to as Africans. The Italians in their colonial aspirations, that was being there, and therefore, every single, I cannot think of one of the architects of the unification of Italy who did not refer to the Neapolitans as Africans, as stinking and carriers of the worst epidemics, including smallpox.

Carrie: So truly racialized.

Massimiliano: Truly racialized, but then eventually, after the unification of Italy, there was a huge migration wave, which was truly the very first one. Neapolitan had never had to leave their land prior to the unification of Italy. So as they made their way, particularly after the Second World War, as they made their way to the north of Italy, where most of the Marshall Plan had been diverted, the locals in Piedmont, where most of the factories where they refer to the Neapolitan says, and thereby using their own dialect or language, I should say, Piedmontese, they refer to them as simply Napoli, spelled with a slightly different spelling than the actual name of our city. So the word is N-A-P-U-L-I, which naturally stood for Napoli Naples. That essentially was the exact same as the Okie and in the Grapes of Roth, and so it stood for scum. Sadly, the Italian dictionaries don't make any mention of what it actually stands for. Actually, they justify themselves as, "Well, it's kind of old fashioned now. It's not used anymore."

Carrie: Old fashioned. 

Massimiliano: Yeah. That's what they actually say. 

Megan: Amazing.

Massimiliano: But there was some tiny online furor at the time, and that they justified themselves by saying essentially, "Well, at the end, the words, okay, was used then and then people were rationalized, they appreciate that. But then eventually the word was also used by some esteemed writers such as Fenoglio and others, esteemed Italian writers. So we cannot help but acknowledge this, and therefore we just take it. But what they did, these Italian authors, they used the actual Piedmontese word, which was spelled differently, but they thought of just doing us an extra favor by translating it into Italian. 

By being a local racist remark in their own language, they thought, "Well, this is not going to fit Neapolitans unless we actually translate it. So let's just translate it. Let's make it Italian so it's properly has ass in them day and night." But then sadly, our ruling class and intellectuals, they've been badly, fearfully, culturally assimilated so that there was hardly a response from the local media and the local intelligentsia. They just moved on, because naturally they think that we are a different ethnicity altogether.  They're not Neapolitans; they're Italians who speak Italian, who live in Naples.

Carrie: Right.

Massimiliano: Which is exactly the same stance assumed by Elena Ferrante. She said, "I'm not... " Well, she's out there, she's out there with the rest and she's making the most of this new racializing wave. This is our identity. We never associated ourselves with this language. 

Carrie: Why am I so shocked? I'm actually agape. 

Megan: You are. You should see your face. 

Massimiliano: There is a really well-orchestrated wall of Amerta around the plight suffered by Neapolitans. It's been going on for, I would say for at least, since 1647 with the revolution of Masaniello, which really instill a lot of fear into the powers they'd be in Europe, particularly the English at the time who feared the rabble and the rest. So there's been this, they worked a lot, they've done a lot of work in terms of just creating this idea of the Neapolitan savage. I noticed you were super shocked when I mentioned Elena Ferrante.. It's quite interesting because I believe she's been, well, she's been or he's been because they're saying that obviously her husband is there as well. 

She might not even be from Naples, which makes perfect sense because at the end, I think she just picked something that was easily commodifiable and sellable as similar to essentially what D.W. Griffith did with the Birth of Nation. She knew that that was going to be a hit because that was part of the culture. So if I take that trope and stick it in a country where there is an inanimate version against these savages, and I just describe them for what they people assume they are as rapists on the loose, then quite clearly it's going to be a hit because-- and millions of readers have been jipped into thinking that she's some sort of feminist headway or icon, but it's really similar to... It makes me, when I think of Elena Ferrante's books, I really think of the expression used by Chinua Achebe when he talked about the Heart of Darkness. A far-going racist, instead of using the more explicit term that he used at the time. 

I remember trying to watch, because the books aren't that explicit in terms of their racial identity, but then when you go and see what the Achebe adaptation is, it's absolutely, sickening to the stomach. I remember trying to watch it with my wife, Veronica, who's obviously been sharing every single effort we've been doing for 30 years. Veronica, she's a Glaswegian herself. Took us two minutes to realize the extent of this actual vial bigotry that was behind the story. The same applies to Roberto Saviano. Obviously, he picked different ingredients. He took the atavistic view of Neapolitans that was perpetuated through the positivist school, and then eventually with the Cesare Lembroso work. 

The rest, again, is a history of the stories that sell millions at the expense of people who are just seeing their language and culture beleaguered and fading away, in a way that is obviously going unchecked. It makes me think of one of the greatest inspirations I've had in my work as an activist are the words, Tony Harrison's words, when in her famous eponymous Nobel lecture, when she was talking about just a language, oppressive language is oppression itself. The language of bigotry. So she said, the proselytism were talking to us, to you guys, primarily. You say, yes, you have this sort of language, language of bigotry, the language that uses racism disguised as literary talent should be exposed and denounced. But hopefully, they'll get a little more exposure. 

Carrie: Absolutely. I mean, I've never read.... What's her name again?

Massimiliano: Elena Ferrante. 

Carrie: Elena Ferrante. I've never read any of it, and I have never seen any of it, but I obviously know who she is. I know some of the background and stuff. No idea. Absolutely zero idea of any of the racist tropes or anything, because yeah, it doesn't come up. I guess because North Americans for sure, don't have access to that. We wouldn't understand what she was doing. 

Massimiliano: Another major problem that we have is Neapolitans, again, we are sort of surrounded by the West. It's just the West has been our case because naturally as the Italians produce this sort of the scientific, the race science that established that we were savages then when after the migration wave to the States, the States produced their infamous Dillingham report, which categorized Southern Italians, essentially based on the racial prejudice that was created, that was forged by the Italians, by the Piedmontese administrators. That has created, as you know, it's just the Italians for a number of years, for a good number of years, they were considered as just scum in the state. It was only later on, when they were offered Columbus as a symbol of cultural assimilation. 

So they were told, "You just accept, if there is a boat for you to jump the lifeboat-- that is the Italian culture, jump on a lifeboat-- but you need to leave all those Sicilian and Neapolitan heritage behind. You need to ditch it; dump it. So that's what they did and there then there is a massive wave of internalized racism, which then causes self bigotry. So you see in many cases, it's Southern Italians themselves, who will produce highly racist work. Because as far as they're concerned, like in the case of Ellen Ferrante, let's imagine she's from Naples, but as far as she's concerned, she's not. We don't have anything in common. She will not have anything in common with anyone who speaks Neapolitan because that is a completely different ethnicity, and yeah.

Carrie: It's so hard for me to conceptualize someone who is from the same country. Like you clearly have some things that you must share. No, totally different ethnicity. It's really hard for me.

Massimiliano: Well, but that's essential. I tell you that's what the Italian renaissance was based on Greek civilization and the Greek were just as much as they were smart at fighting and colonizing, they were really dumb in thinking that the person next door was barbaric just because they didn't speak the same language. So as this idea of this alterity, this idea of just being able to stigmatize others in order to, at the end of the day, to control them.

Megan: Right. Yeah.

Massimiliano: Because they don't even think of it. They don't believe in the inferiority of the other person, just instrumental to their thirst for domination, at the end of the day. So just the one-on-one of human anthropology at the end of the day. 

Carrie: So obviously Neapolitan and Italian are both descendants of Latin, but how closely related are they?

Massimiliano: Well, the only, the similitudes that you will find are just a result of the imposition of the Italian language that really only took off after the second World War when the plebeians, up to this very day, you're reading the Italian press and local press as well, the expression, 'plebeian, the plebs', they're referring to the working class, the lower strata or the working class that referred to as plebeians, which is cowardly in itself as far as I'm concerned, especially if it's coming from the lefty liberals. But after the Second World War, these guys, including my parents, they were invited to come to school because they had to go and work in shops and therefore they had to become proletariat.

But that took quite some time because as Pasolini himself explains essentially, the TV even, for example, I was born in 1972, and I remember up until I went to primary school I hardly knew what Italian was. I didn't know except for... I  lived in one of the poorest district in, deprived districts in Naples. This is where I grew up, in one of the most densely populated districts with 80,000 people in a tiny space, really. I can't remember one person who spoke one word of Italian in naturally, we were a perfectly ghettoized area where Italians were essentially seen as aliens. These aliens we were supposed to acknowledge. So we knew that; I knew as a kid, I knew that then eventually I was going to go to this school, I was going to have to learn this alien language because it was for my own good, apparently. Even though I never believed it, to be honest, because I knew I wasn't worth the bargain. It wasn't going to be a bargain. 

The only presence that I felt, the Italian presence was the TV and the couple of programs that you've got in the afternoon, really, because the morning was just music. Then eventually, in the 1980s and 90s, this TV was pervasive. Then from being its own distinctive language, it's now turned into hardly distinguishable linguistic entity because in the past 30 years, with more and more pressure in terms of the precarious situation in terms of jobs, availability, etcetera, all of these factors have done so that people have just said, "Well, you know what? I'm just going to learn Italian. I'm just going to get myself a job". But at the same time, schools aren't that great. The facilities aren't that great, and also I think the language attrition is what they actually want. They don't want people to absolutely dump Neapolitan because they're quite happy with the students from the south, particularly from the lowest classes, they're quite happy with them struggling to even learn Italian. As far as they're concerned, it's functional for the greater good of the country.

Carrie: This is reminding me of the USCO where there's similar things happening with Spanish and I'm just blown away. I didn't know this was happening. 

Massimiliano: Yeah, and sadly we're quite close to the possibility of an extinction because again with the new technologies and all the rest and that there is a new migration wave and vast majority of the graduates that leave. But most importantly there's also this self indoctrination, the self bigotry that is induced by, is driven by this literature, and this really cunningly racist art that is all out there. It's force fed to the young so that at the end of the day, it's just I don't really need to just impose Italian anymore. They're actually doing it themselves. I don't need to minstralize their culture because they're doing it themselves. In fact, mostly, even in the States, every once and then, videos will pop up on my socials and it's mostly Neapolitans interpreting the racist tropes that have been created against them.

Well, it's just that happens, just the black and white face, the [inaudible] and the black and white things, because that's all part of the same trick. But it's hard to explain because you say, "Well, you're okay. You're in Scotland, you've got a job. I need to get on with it. I need to go on with my own things. I need to teach my children to dominate ways so that they can join forces with the oppressors." But you're oppressing yourself. Do you understand that? But obviously, fear is such a gripping force that it's hard to get through. Those who are just being basically just shackled by language oppression, which is at the end of the day, it's a form of ideological oppression. You can't think straight anymore. 

Carrie: Yeah, no, absolutely. 

Massimiliano: You have this constant attraction between these two, this double consciousness that is also the "latere" in terms of your mental health. The more you fight it, the more anguish and the more physical and mental strain it causes. So a lot of people would just rather just get on with it and forget it and pass it onto the next generation. But you never know, you never know what might happen. I think sometimes there are last-minute reprieves. 

Megan: Yeah, the details are slightly different, but like this pattern is the same across the world, right? Like the oppressors try to convince the oppressed that it's better just to give up their language for economic reasons, for power reasons, whatever it is. It often works at least for a while, but there's at least a pressure on the other direction finally, in many places. I don't know about Neapolitan. 

Massimiliano: True. Well, sadly, the thing is imagine we up until, well, even to this day, there will be, in fact, I ran this experiment, it was called essentially just an experiment on my Facebook page and it was called Speak Neapolitan for one minute, but no jokes to avoid de-minstralization. Just expand some sort of thought, just to talk about something, explaining your opinions about something without being too pathos filled. Just keep it cognitive, rational, just basic. No one managed, and all the participants were just, again, just interpreting a de-minstralized image of themselves and they were impersonating tropes, including from the Commedia dell'arte, which was... 

In fact, that's something else that we should be re-discussed as a "Commedia dell'arte" was essentially this great 16th century Hollywood that dictated that it also contributed to racializing cultures as well with all these stock characters and fixed characters. In fact, quite interestingly, Benedetto Croce noticed that from the Commedia dell'arte, that also filtered through the Elizabethan age. There are two characters from the "Commedia dell'arte", Stephano and Trinculo, which then appeared in Shakespeare's "The Tempest".
Europe is such a small world, you know? 

Carrie: Yeah. 

Megan: Yes. Commedia dell'arte is impacted, it's still to this day, you can draw a straight line to how comedy is today. Yeah. It's such a huge thing. So is there a Neapolitan character like, stock character?

Massimiliano:  Pulcinella, yeah, that was the stock character, which then in England they arrived as Punch and Judy.

Carrie: Oh, see?

Massimiliano: Yeah, but naturally, the people forget that the palace was very much in control, even though there were itinerant companies and the professionals, but the palace was very much in control of what was going on and what was being represented. But Benedetto Croce traces all the development of this character from being a member of the pleb, and then there was the buffoon. Then there was the lazy and then it became, finally now is synonymous with the idol and the buffoon. Even though there are other representations of Pulcinella, which are a lot more dignified. But they mostly come from abroad. In fact I used one of them from my first novel, 'Le Volet', and it's by a French author called Octave Feuillet, where even though Pulcinella has got a hump, quite ugly, quite freakishly looking, but at the same time, he's easy. He wants to educate themselves, and he wants to just spend all the money he makes to help his family, and the king is really nice and helpful. So the tropes are created, but then the dominant groups make sure that they actually are not only the bad ones that affect, that go in and have the impact that they should be having on the Subaltern cultures.

Megan: So speaking of your novels, why did you want to write novels in Neapolitan?

Massimiliano: I thought it was actually self-healing the first time I went. When I was at university, I realized that I wasn't capable of standing up and speaking Neapolitan without fearing to be laughed at. I realized that. So I'm at university, and I'm learning three languages. "But wait a minute, I've been taught this language, which I think is pretty amazing. Why is it that I can stand up and just have a conversation in it? Why do I think that if I did that, people would laugh at me?" So I was trying to articulate this thought, and then luckily bumped into this novel by Victor Hugo, L'homme Qui Rit, or "The Man Who Laughs". Then he all clicked in terms of stigmatization. So it's a story which also inspired the Joker in Batman. So it's this kid, essentially, an aristocratic kid who was kidnapped and sold to itinerant entertainers who carve a smile on his face. So essentially this boy just suddenly has this perpetual grin on his face. The "compras chicos" and these itinerant performers, they turn him into an attraction. So that's all he does most of his life. He's sad. He's crying his heart out, but at the same time people think he's smiling. Then I realized that that's obvious, I realized, "Well, obviously somebody did that carving on my face. So I just went and decided to reveal the act, the very act that lies behind this stigmatization.

So that's why in my first novel I just-- actually, it's quite funny because I imagined that Victor Hugo went to Naples prior to the publication of his book because he had heard that Neapolitans as well were being stigmatized as this and that. He meets, he goes to the theater where the performance of the boy who laughs has been staged and he speaks to the Neapolitan. He's been ridiculed and rendered as a buffoon, and the boy says, "Well, what can I do? Can you see? They're waiting for me to laugh. As soon as I open my mouth, actually, they're already laughing and I haven't even opened my mouth yet." In his dressing room he's actually literally shackled, chained to the wall. Victor Hugo, he's got in a couple of books, it's "Moby Dick" and the actual Pulcinella by [inaudible] He's trying to smash up the rings of the chain. The person, that was something I was trying to say to myself, and the kid just says, "What are you actually doing?" Can you not see that is actually an iron chain and you're trying to break it with a couple of books?" The message behind that is you actually need to do something about it. You can't just publish it and expect people to just act upon them. You need to be out there and show as cringy as it might sound, you just really need to be the change you want to see.

Megan: Yeah, absolutely.

Massimiliano: You need to make it happen, and hopefully somebody will inspire just hopefully before it's too late, because we really don't have much time left. I possibly have one more generation, but maybe it's not half time. 

Carrie: When you're talking, this totally reminded me. Is Pinocchio, does it have these tropes in it? 

Massimiliano: Pinocchio is one of the... I actually teach it occasionally as well. As far as I can say, it's one of the darkest.

Carrie: It's very dark.

Megan: It's super dark, yeah.

Massimiliano: Extremely dark. I think he's just trying to tell us that human beings are a lot more evil than we tend to think. I suppose in terms of just the cat and the fox disguising themselves and constant disguising that is. Also sometimes, the "Mangiafuoco" or Fire-Eater, I think is sometimes just appearances can be quite deceitful. Yeah, I suppose there's a similarity. 

Megan: Oh, okay.

Carrie: Why is Neapolitan important? 

Massimiliano: I believe that we've suffered extensively throughout the past 3,000 years. I think each language is a creative, cognitive system. So I believe it's just a way for human beings to remind themselves of how to survive, of how to use their resilience in the face of oppression. We're still there. We might disappear, but we kept at it for at least 700 years and to sort of even the mere fact that we were able to oppose this evil force then might inspire others who might be able to survive. 

Megan: So you've already kind of talked about this, but I still feel like maybe I'm missing some part of the picture. So why is it that Neapolitan is stigmatized? 

Massimiliano: I think stigmatization, I believe, is just one of those inherent features of what we normally refer to as civilization. So I think that the patriarchal civilization is founded, I believe, on sublimating emotions that some decide that should be handled by others. So Neapolitans have been stigmatized because there are some who cannot handle their own feeling, inner feeling, troubling feeling of inadequacy in terms of being unable to interpret the universe, in terms of coming up with some sort of definitive formula to interpret it. We see this out there today, folks who want to colonize other planets because they think it's all been sorted out. There's nothing else. There's no God and we should all move on and colonize and it doesn't matter if these rockets are built by some stupid third or fourth world country. God knows what kind of language they speak. So yeah, I think this, we were just, I think in many cases, it's not even a matter, it's just a matter of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. It's not that the Tuscans didn't stigmatize Neapolitan because they had a particular hatred for Naples. Had there been another distinctive, confident culture, they would have gone for the aims. So because that's the only way they can feel confident in themselves. 

Carrie: They were just in the way. 

Massimiliano: Yeah, in the way of these bullies, because at the end of the day, that's what they are.

Carrie: Yeah, 100%.

Megan: Yeah, absolutely. It seems to me what you're describing also is fascism, right? These are the seeds of fascism, and we're all participating in it too, and then we participate in stigmatizing.

Massimiliano: Well, this goes back to, there is a, it's actually very well known, but they make a point of neglecting him. Another hugely influential thinker, a speaker on Neapolitan, Giambattista Vico. It's quite interesting because you can hardly find one of the a papers on Giambattista Vico that deals with this idea of plebeian philology and how that was Giambattista Vico was also inspired by Joyce and Finnegans Wake, but it's mostly known for her cycles of history. We go from instinctual nature to a more hero, and then finally to the age of reason. 

But Giambattista Vico precisely points out that you can only get to the age of reason when human beings realize that they are equal and equality can only be achieved when the plebeians use their own plebeian philology. They regain control of their own imagery and their own presence in the world until they essentially, until they impose equality. Maybe it impose is the wrong word, but it's quite interesting that they make it precisely go around all the points that really, they want to avoid on purpose. I think Vico called it the barbarism of reflection. 

That was the stage essentially where humanity stalled and opinion, the basic sense, each person, each culture had their own opinion and that there was no way to reconcile them. The point is that the lower classes are being homogenized so much that they have lost class consciousness and there is no way, unless you regain class consciousness through your own native language, then there is no way that you can facilitate this equality that they would then bring about social justice.

Carrie: Oh my God. That's so dire.

Megan: Yeah, it is so dire.

Carrie: Because like think about how many people have lost connection to what would have been their native language, right? I've talked a little bit about this on the show, but I thought that all my ancestors until, I don't know, very far back spoke English, but I found out actually, no. There were some Gaelic speakers. I just would not have any connection. I didn't know. So anyway...

Massimiliano: That's really amazing.

Megan: What can our listeners do to support Apollo 10?

Massimiliano: Well, I was thinking about it, and I think it's about whether people are still interested in checking out the other side of the coin, which is becoming more and more rare. People are quite happy with the mainstream and they're not really willing to look elsewhere. So if you're willing to look at the other side of the coin, then you should, next time maybe-- well, I suppose give my books a go.

Megan: Yes, absolutely.

Massimiliano: That could be a starting point, but otherwise, next time you go to Naples, maybe just instead of just allowing them, because the Neapolitan, if you really have a chat with a Neapolitan, they will laugh anything off. They will just pretend that because it's really hard to deal with. Yeah, but instead of just having just a casual fleeting conversation, maybe if you really want to understand what a Neapolitan is feeling, then just wait until all the noise dies out, and listen to what they're saying, possibly they're Neapolitan, and you will understand, you will understand the emotional sphere that you couldn't access through any of the literature, the mainstream literature that you will find. 

I think there's a great quote by Fellini that says, "If we all were a lot quieter, then there's so much more that we could understand." I think it's from the La voce della luna, the Moon's Voice. If we're all shut up, then there's so much more that we could understand because we just tend to chat people up and think that the more words, the more understanding. Just shush and listen to what they're saying and trying to really get through their feelings beyond the walls of this protection that they put on to deflect the grief that they have to suffer on a daily basis.

Carrie: Yes, listen. We should all listen [crosstalk]

Megan: We should all listen to each other. 

Carrie: Listen to understand, not to respond.

Massimiliano: That sounds good. 

Megan: Yeah, that does sound good. 

Carrie: So is there anything else that we didn't touch on that you would like to let our listeners know about?

Massimiliano: No, as I said at the beginning, I'm just starstruck because I just think you two are just like... If there were language Marvel characters, you two would be just might be it.

Both: Oh my gosh. 

Massimiliano: There should be.

Megan: That's the sweetest thing anyone's ever said to us. 

Carrie: That is so flattering.

Megan: That is so flattering. 

Massimiliano: That is true. It's absolutely true. Being agreed on it, I think, and I do believe that it's tiny differences then they can make, that can produce actual change. It's one tiny bit at a time. So thank you very much for the opportunity.

Carrie: Thank you.

Megan: We appreciate you very much.

Carrie: I think you blew both of our minds. I mean [crosstalk]

Megan: I know. I usually have more to say, I think, but I'm just learning right now. Yeah, so much going on.

Carrie: I'm feeling that I understand a little bit more than Megan does about the situation in Europe and I'm still flabbergasted. Still. So thank you so much. 

Massimiliano: Thank you. 

Megan: Yes. Thank you. 

Carrie: We always leave our listeners with one final message. Don't be an asshole. 

Megan: Don't be an asshole. 

Carrie: And would you like to say that in Neapolitan?

Massimiliano: Nung fos thruns.

Carrie: Lovely. Thank you so much. 

Megan: Perfect. 

Massimiliano: Thank you. 

Megan: Thank you.

Carrie: The Vocal Fries Podcast is produced by me, Carrie Gillon. Theme music by Nick Granum. You can find us on Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook, and Instagram @vocalfriespod. You can email us at vocalfriespod@gmail.com and our website is vocalfriespod.com.

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