Expansion Pack: Jakub Wiśniewski's Turn (Glass Cannon Unplugged)

Following up from our UK Games Expo meet and greets we've got another belter of an expansion pack with another special guest.  This time Jakub the CEO of Glass Cannon Unplugged joins Adrian & JP for a chat around "Engineering Adaptations" of IP's into board games and more about the upcoming title Don't Starve.

GUEST PLAYER: Jakub Wiśniewski
PLAYERS: Adrian & JP

In this episode you'll learn:
- how Jakub got into the tabletop space and how Glass Cannon Unplugged began
- more about the collaborations between GCU & their partners and how they make it a continuing success
- more about Don't Starve, their upcoming title launching on Kickstarter in September 2025
- more about their other titles including Apex Legends, Dying Light, Frostpunk and more.

LINKS REFERENCED IN THE SHOW
Glass Cannon Unplugged website - https://glasscannonunplugged.com/
Don't Starve Kickstarter Page - https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/glasscannonunplugged/dont-starve-the-board-game/

EPISODE CHAPTERS

0:00 - TURN 1 - Player Count

0:33 - TURN 2 - Introducing Jakub & GCU

1:03 - How did you get into the hobby?

12:19 - TURN 3 - Glass Cannon Unplugged

12:35 - How GCU approached Don't Starve as a design?

21:36 - How have you approached turning 2D into 3D this time around?

25:57 - Working with IP's and openness that GCU have experienced

27:30 - How has GCU approached the rogue-like mechanics?

32:49 - Who are the characters in Don't Starve?

36:02 - How do the dice and monster interactions work?

40:44 - Some Don't Starve teasers

43:18 - Expanding GCU collaborations and working with more Studios

51:49 - An aside on Apex Legends

1:06:28 - Respecting backers

1:07:51 - Chatting about Dying Light

1:14:25 - TURN 4 - What's Coming Up

1:19:09 - Thanking Jakub

1:20:09 - TURN 5 - The Final Turn

Chapters

• 0:00 TURN 1 - Player Count
• 0:33 TURN 2 - Introducing Jakub & GCU
• 1:03 How did you get into the hobby?
• 12:19 TURN 3 - Glass Cannon Unplugged
• 12:35 How GCU approached Don't Starve as a design?
• 21:36 How have you approached turning 2D into 3D this time around?
• 25:57 Working with IP's and openness that GCU have experienced
• 27:30 How has GCU approached the rogue-like mechanics?
• 32:49 Who are the characters in Don't Starve?
• 36:02 How do the dice and monster interactions work?
• 40:44 Some Don't Starve teasers
• 43:18 Expanding GCU collaborations and working with more Studios
• 51:49 An aside on Apex Legends
• 1:06:28 Respecting backers
• 1:07:51 Chatting about Dying Light
• 1:14:25 TURN 4 - What's Coming Up
• 1:19:09 Thanking Jakub
• 1:20:09 TURN 5 - The Final Turn

Transcript

TURN 1 - Player Count
0:00
Whose turn is it anyways excited to announce the Devon board game weekend at the Fox and Hounds Hotel in Edgesford
0:05
near Exat. This event begins on Friday the 17th of October to Sunday the 19th of October. For more details on how to
0:12
get tickets, follow the link in our show notes and we'll love to get a game with you there.
0:18
[Music]
0:32
Hi, I'm Adrian from the Who's Turners Anyway podcast and we have one of our expansion episodes. So today with me I
TURN 2 - Introducing Jakub & GCU
0:38
have uh JP from the podcast. Hello. And Jacob from Glass Cannon Unplugged.
0:45
How are you doing? Hey, hello there. Thanks for having me. No worries. Anytime. So, we caught up with you at
0:51
the UK Games Expo and said it'd be lovely to talk to you all about all the wonderful IPs you've worked with and
0:56
just sort of what that experience is like. And you guys kind of said that's great cuz we've got a a new shiny
1:02
Kickstarter coming out soon. And we thought that sounds like a great time to get you on the show. So, here you are.
How did you get into the hobby?
1:07
Um, and yeah, can't wait to can't wait to catch up with you all about the IP stuff. So,
1:13
before we get started though, we always like to know a little bit about um the people on our expansion episodes. So to
1:18
start off with, how did you get into board gaming? What was your entry into the into the lovely world of board
1:24
games? Well, it was unexpected. Um,
1:31
and it came from um from books actually because um just
1:36
before I got into board games, I was um um working as a translator in my own
1:46
startup publishing house. Like I was kind of late to the party. uh
1:53
uh publishing houses uh the successful ones they're established for roughly
1:58
hundred years. So I wanted to try just
2:03
just missed it by just miss it by a bit several generations. Um so basically uh I when I
2:12
was still studying journalism I ran into um uh one of the professors who said hey
2:19
you're a translator because I finished English philology before uh and you like
2:25
fantasy and weird fiction and horror just like me so why don't we start a publishing um house. was like
2:31
sounds better than teaching people English and trying to find uh um some
2:38
some you know small translation gigs. So there I went uh not knowing to what uh uh incredible
2:45
madness I was just signing in my soul. Um and um after a few years of draining
2:55
all my savings and um and trying to uh to do some stuff and succeeding with
3:02
quite a few I've met a guy uh called Miho or who is the author of Neoroshima
3:09
Hacks of of Neosroima the role playing game Monaster and quite a few other um
3:14
ingenious uh games. and one of the people who started the modern board game
3:20
design with Ignatal Shvichek from Polal uh in Poland.
3:25
And uh Miho is an absolute uh orchestra of a man. He's a brilliant designer.
3:32
He's a graphic designer. He's an illustrator, a photographer and you know what everything. And he became my mentor
3:40
and a friend uh in the process. And um once the publishing house, spoiler
3:47
alert, uh went bankrupt uh after after we did our biggest uh
3:55
biggest hit and and the distributor run away with our money, uh I
4:04
wanted to look for a new career puff and uh I went to a very small uh convention
4:11
uh called Nantastic in Poland in Prz in my home city uh which is the same place
4:17
where uh Techlant is based uh the video gaming company
4:23
and I met the owner of Teland and his art director and one of his lead designers there and the owner of
4:31
Techland right now is one of the richest people in Poland and in Europe. So back
4:36
in the day he was still speaking with mortals like myself. Um walking without
4:41
you know bodyguards and all. And I said, "Hey, I just um finished working with um
4:50
with with books. I'm a met translator, did some stuff. I worked with Miha. Uh
4:55
you might know him from Neproima and Monastery." And you're like, "Yeah, just send us some stuff." And that's how I
5:02
got into Teland basically and start into writing. And it turned out that I'm
5:07
quite good at it. Uh, you know, like the saying goes, if you listen to a lot of
5:13
music, you're not a good guitar player, but apparently it's not like that with writing and and reading. So, it worked
5:21
for me. Um, and Miho, my mentor, uh, he
5:26
said like, uh, I I had his email printed and on my desk for a while, and he
5:33
basically said a lot of nice things to me about the way I I wrote stuff, and it
5:39
inspired him to work with me on his dream project, which was creating a board game that was
5:46
something more than another game about Knights, Dragon, and killing and looting
5:53
and sending people to dig coal for you. H So that's how this war of mine, the
6:00
board game was born. Uh it's it's a love child of of of our many adventures with Miho and um I wrote
6:10
the the texts for it. I wrote the the book of scripts, more than half of it,
6:16
and helped to to design uh some of the mechanics of the game, but obviously
6:23
Miha was the lead designer, and that's how I got dragged into board games
6:28
basically. Um I was there when Awakened Realms just started. Uh had some share
6:36
in it, uh with with this of mine being uh mine and Mi House project. Uh so then
6:42
we split up and Miho decided to stay with Awaken realms and kind of follow the dream. I tried to my uh
6:51
um I tried to use the money I've earned uh to start another small business uh a
6:58
video gaming company uh called Glass Cannon. Uh uh and uh we created a game
7:08
uh a mobile game uh called Jars and then we tried to find a publisher for it. Uh
7:15
failed miserably but we sold the game. Uh we kind of uh got some experience two
7:22
years of life but uh came out uh a little bit on top of it. And then
7:29
the way Glass Cannon Unplugged was born was basically um my business partner
7:36
Pavo uh who's a financial guy because every creative guy needs a financial guy
7:42
otherwise. Oh yeah, we're doomed. Trouble. Uh yeah, absolutely.
7:48
Um uh so uh he he told me, "Hey Kuba, we
7:55
failed with the digital game, but when you actually succeeded, it was with a
8:00
with a board game, so why not try it again?" So I called my my my mates from 11 bit
8:07
Studios and said, "Hey guys, um I heard that uh you want to do a board game with Frostbank." and
8:15
they said, "Yeah, we're actually, you know, announced like a small uh beauty
8:20
contest for it. So, you want to come in and try and, you know, present your
8:26
design?" I was like, "Yeah." So, I fought long and hard, spoke with
8:32
Miho, and he said, "Why don't you call Adam Kapinski, author of Nemesis, and
8:39
ask him if he doesn't want to do it with you?" And I was like, hm, sounds like a
8:45
cool idea. So, uh, at the same time, we decided with PAVO to apply for a
8:51
government grant, uh, European, uh, government grants. Um, and, uh, somehow
8:57
we succeeded. Uh, I had a small child at home and had to travel to another part
9:02
of Poland by train twice a month to to to get that grant.
9:09
uh and write a lot of weird stuff uh that wasn't connected with board games
9:15
but with business and business plans and all all of that. So learned quite a lot. Yeah.
9:20
Yeah. Yeah. But somehow uh we managed all that
9:28
and that's basically how with this word of mine uh and the frost punk later on
9:34
glass cannon plug was born. Wow. That's uh in a nutshell my my uh
9:42
entry into the board game world. I love the fact that your entry into the
9:47
hobby is is is just landing, you know, uh a hit of this war is mine and then
9:54
following up with a bit of another hit with Ros. I've arrived
9:59
here. Love it. I mean, having played this war of mine, I can tell you that that script
10:05
writing is is very good because I spent the entire time going, "Oh, not another problem." Which is perfect for this war
10:11
of mine, it's just bang on. So, yeah, great job on that on that system. Same with Frostburn, right? There's
10:17
there's it's one of the board games I don't mind getting repeatedly kicked in the balls over and over again. It's
10:23
Frostbug and I keep coming back for it. It's just it's brilliant. I actually
10:28
with Frostbug I actually got into that uh the board game before the computer game. So I knew it was based off a a
10:34
video game IP, but never really kind of got round to to playing it. But I have now played
10:39
the video game um on Xbox after purchasing the board game. But I I just I love getting all the bits out on the
10:46
table because I'm I'm an analog gamer anyway at heart. So So yeah, but yeah, it's it's a real
10:51
roller coaster of emotions. Well, I love it. It's good fun. It's really good to hear that, guys.
10:58
It's just Yeah, we've had a load of fun. Obviously, we'll talk about it in a bit, but we've been playing loads of Apex as
11:03
well and really enjoying that. And that was another game that neither of us had played as a video game before. No game.
11:10
We We're all um too old and geeky to play Apex like like
11:16
it should be. Like I I I I played uh PUBG with my friends
11:23
uh before we went into Apex uh four of us and once every 10 games or maybe twice
11:31
we would actually win a match because one of the guys was really good and we were just sort of trying not to
11:37
stand in his way. But but but we were able to do that and from time to time um
11:43
even shoot somebody or hit them with the pan. Yeah, but when I first started playing Apex,
11:50
they rolled over me so fast. I I I went there thinking like I'm a mediocre
11:56
gamer. Like maybe they won't just, you know, rip me to shreds. Nope.
12:02
My only kill up to this day is when I was hitting somebody with the butt of my
12:07
gun. And probably only because they were logged out.
12:14
Yeah. They're just running around in circles just brilliant.
TURN 3 - Glass Cannon Unplugged
12:20
Yeah, I suck at those games, I'll be honest. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Like I think Counter Strike Go
12:25
was the last play was the last um time I played a competitive shooter online
12:31
competitively. Yeah. Real tournament. Now ages old. There we go. Throw me age.
How GCU approached Don't Starve as a design?
12:37
Nice. So anyway, so yeah, let's let's talk a little bit more about Glass Cannon Unplugged then. So, two hits
12:43
straight out of the gate. A third one hopefully on its way um with Dying Light. And now we've got Don't Starve.
12:51
So, I'm intrigued by this one. Again, another one that I hadn't played a lot and then sort of saw the board game and
12:56
now I've sort of got into the the video game a little bit more. Giving it a go and had a look and see what it's all about. So tell us a little bit about
13:03
about that one cuz it sounds like you and the studio have been working hard to sort of deliver a good experience but
13:09
something that isn't like a direct like a one for one translation of the video game. So basically this is um glass canon
13:17
stands for engineering adaptations meaning that we're with each title we're trying to improve
13:23
and sort of like recap do a postmortem of everything we did before. Um,
13:30
and maybe it's um maybe it's a mistake uh that we aren't just, you know, doing
13:38
another expansion for Frostbank or or uh focusing on the same thing uh over
13:44
again. But um in terms of development as as people, as
13:52
a team, as a company, this is this is an absolute you know booster like with each
13:58
title. We work with different companies like the their size differs, their
14:03
approach differs. It's sort of like maybe not learning the same thing a new
14:08
but um just going through a process and and seeing how different it's done all
14:13
over the world and with different studios and different people. Um, so
14:19
with Dawn Starf, it's um, uh, what I like to think our most, uh,
14:28
conscious uh, uh, game, uh, so far. um
14:33
in terms of uh the audience uh and and how we think which will be proven soon
14:41
um we've matched uh the game the mechanics the to to to to the fans of
14:48
the digital game and toward gamers because what we always strive for is and
14:55
this is I I think what you said before JP is sort of like a confirmation that
15:01
we succeeded uh to make the board games we do great
15:06
for people who don't know the IP and this is the same with you for Apex. Um
15:13
uh and obviously we want the true fans of the video games and of VIPs to feel
15:20
right at home, but the trick is to make a good board game without making a clone
15:26
or or skin off or or or something like that. So that's what we spend most time
15:33
with. And with Donarf, we went sort of the same way we went with uh Frostbank,
15:40
meaning that uh it was even the same people, Rafa Petrinsky, who's the um
15:46
developer of of um Frostbank and and Apex, he was involved in and he's the
15:53
author of the of of Donar uh for us. So, we we had a
16:01
game we're happy with, but uh we engaged uh ourselves, but also our publishing
16:09
partners, some some some fans to see where we landed. And it turned
16:14
out that we're quite close, but not there yet. Meaning the game was a little bit too
16:20
complex, had too much components to handle. And you know, you have to
16:26
observe the industry and see how it reacts to certain things.
16:33
If we were doing a game in just for board gamers, it might have been
16:40
right there. Yeah. But with the fans of the digital game who might not have had experience
16:47
with the with board games before, we had to, you know, uh make it uh less of a
16:57
way stone for them to to to lift once once they get to it. So that was quite a trick, especially with, you know, uh
17:05
components and and the the game is basically about crafting and and survival and getting all that stuff. So
17:11
you have bucketload of components um because there's so many recipes, so
17:17
many items and and and and etc. Uh so the trick was to kind of narrow it down
17:23
in a way that you don't lose anything from replayability.
17:28
Uh but on the other hand, you're not uh entering uh a product that is
17:37
overwhelming for you as a as a first time player. Nice sense. So that's why Donerf was announced two
17:45
years ago, but we're only coming uh to it right now. Also uh a lot has
17:52
happened. We have our uh wonderful tariffs. Uh we we have our our wonderful
18:01
geopolitical situation. Yeah. Uh and um
18:09
the other thing is that uh I also try to observe the industry like we all uh get
18:17
those board games that uh you know guys like us we we have whole shelves rooms
18:24
dedicated to our board games but but not all of the people who re will reach out
18:30
for for our games are like this. Yeah. So, uh that's also something we took
18:37
into consideration with Don. But the game itself, like the the the video game, it's team Barton uh meets uh video
18:46
games. It's an absolute uh uh beauty in terms of of of how how it looks, of the
18:53
graphics. Uh the game play is mean. It's doesn't tell you anything at the
18:59
beginning. Good luck. And I and I've just spoken with quite a few hardcore gamers who
19:05
were like, "Uh, yeah, it was the game I was so angry with that I uninstalled it
19:12
more than I played it." Uh, and you know, um, it it it's just quite magical.
19:20
And I think and it's reflected with with the amount of followers we have on Kickstarter. I think it's the the best
19:28
match for uh board game adaptation. Um
19:34
so far like uh obviously this were mine frostbang they they were great uh hits
19:40
but uh we're reaching 50,000 followers for for don't starve obviously our
19:45
marketing team has been big at work raising those numbers uh every week but
19:52
you know there's uh only so much um you can do if if if people aren't into
19:59
something and here they obviously are. Uh, so it's
20:04
same with Diablo. We're I told my team when we got the licenses, when we signed
20:09
the contracts, like we're screwed right now because if we botch it up, if if if
20:16
we don't deliver on any of these, we can change the industry, change our
20:23
names, I can shave off my beard and and become, you know, uh uh
20:29
somebody else. So with great power comes great responsibility.
20:35
Yeah, absolutely. You got some like real good the golden egg of of IPs in your
20:42
hand and it's that that is that is some responsibility.
20:47
So so with Don Surf approaching because we we we're launching the game in uh uh
20:53
the end of September. Um, we're super excited on one hand and then
20:58
we're going to follow up with with the upload the role playing game hopefully by the end of of this year. Uh, so
21:06
there's a lot of work here at GCU headquarters. There's, you know, the the
21:11
guys are uh it's we're recording and it's 8:00 p.m. in Poland and the guys uh
21:19
below me in our basement are playing uh some prototypes and and some other games
21:25
just, you know, um get some reference. Um yeah, it's it's a wild ride. It's
21:31
it's a very uh curious year for us as a company. Um, so I'm really excited on
How have you approached turning 2D into 3D this time around?
21:39
one hand and I want to sleep really badly on the other.
21:45
It'll all be worth it hopefully once that Kickstarter launches and you get all those backers. Lovely lovely
21:51
backers. So I the first you sort of mentioned those timber and aesthetics and it was one of the things that sort of stood out
21:58
to me a little bit as as probably different to what you've had so far. So, so far you've had sort of 3D models of
22:04
things because of the games you've done, IPs are all 3D models and you've had to 2D them or do like work with art
22:10
studios. I'm guessing this one it's a 2D medium but you've had to 3Dify some of it. Is that a different process? Is that
22:17
a different sort of style of of of sort of creativity that someone has to dig
22:22
into because it did stand out as go the only one that where you've done 2D to 3D rather than 3D to 2D sort of thing.
22:29
Yeah, that's absolutely true with uh characters from Don't Serf. Fortunately, Corey from Clay
22:36
Entertainment, the their um head of licensing, you could say the the the the
22:41
shepherd of all the licensing at Clay Entertainment has been uh playing at um
22:48
at it for a while and he did some cool collabs with um um companies that made
22:55
miniatures. So they already had some reference plus Clay has been helping us
23:01
a lot like all our license owners the the people
23:07
with whom we work they're they're great and they try to uh put up uh some some
23:13
some extra effort into uh what we're doing in the collaborations but we haven't yet met
23:20
anyone who could match Clay in terms of that because these guys um they they
23:26
just um approach their game differently. It's it's been going on for over a
23:31
decade now and people it's still in in in top 50 played uh games every day on
23:38
Steen. Um the way their their community works and then the way they support it, it's
23:45
just something uh else and they drew the they drew the cover. We have original
23:52
new art for the cover. uh they've actually implemented the board game into
23:57
their lore. So, we're gonna have like a new we're actually for the first time ever, we're actually co-creating some
24:05
lore with the license owner, which is something out of the world. Um because not like no other IP owner
24:14
would do that. Like they were this is the cannon, stick to it. if you
24:19
stray, we're just going to cut it because, you know, we have a whole process. We have a whole team and you
24:25
guys uh you know, we are always super respectful to the original. Um but
24:30
sometimes it's like, oh, I'm I'm making stuff up. The other company that um allowed us to do that
24:38
was 11 bit studios, obviously, because uh you know, we're really good pulse and they knew we could uh we I know them
24:46
personally and they said, "We trust you." uh Kuba and you're not going to stray from the cannon. So for Frostbank,
24:53
we actually did uh the Tesla City which is an original piece. Same with this
24:58
word of mine, but that was a long time ago in a different galaxy. But but yeah, generally it's not very often
25:06
that you get the licenser to allow you to to to to double in their IP. And here
25:15
uh they're also doing some stuff I cannot say yet about. But uh when I
25:20
heard how many people on their side are involved, I was like
25:26
I don't know if I can afford to buy all of them lunch.
25:31
Like that would be literally our budget for a month. Uh but um and and we went went there to
25:39
visit them in in Vancouver in Canada. Uh, which is great. By the way, we we
25:45
shot some really cool videos. We played um the prototype with them. Uh, so so
25:51
our guys are working on editing the the video right now, so we'll have it for Kickstarter, you know, seeing the guys
Working with IP's and openness that GCU have experienced
25:57
who created the the the video game to play the board game and get their butts kicked. It's always super cool.
26:06
I was going to say he's got his original meanness still in there then, which is Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
26:11
Now you get it. Yeah, absolutely. It's a huge sign of respect though, isn't it? If if someone's like basically
26:17
here, hold my baby sort of thing. Don't drop it. It's quite a big sign of trust. Yeah.
26:24
And you know, obviously we've with there's different IPs, different companies like but we're also like super
26:30
surprised by how open and how warm and welcoming Blizzard was because you know
26:37
that doesn't there aren't many bigger companies than they they are and and you know you hear all those stories and
26:44
legends but then uh we jumped on a call and there were more people there than
26:50
you know our entire company um And uh I was just laughing that you know probably
26:57
with the amount of sea level people and people whom you know from YouTube videos there uh we were just you know that hour
27:04
cost more than Yeah. the project. Yeah. The project
27:11
hopefully not. Um but um jokes aside um they they they're super super dedicated
27:19
uh to to that and and you know uh we are approaching this as as as a fragile egg
27:25
that needs to be carried with with you know uh extra care because Diablo is is
How has GCU approached the rogue-like mechanics?
27:32
it's a legacy. You know we we've played it when we were small kids and we're
27:38
grumpy farts right now but and still playing it.
27:45
Still playing an iteration somewhere. Nice. So, obviously the game is a is a
27:50
rogike sort ofesque game where you just sort of keep keep going and going and hope you survive. We've seen a few board
27:57
games take on rogike um versions and adaptations and stuff like that. How how
28:03
have you approached that for for Don't Starve? because they so far some of the quite the few few of the rogue likes
28:08
have been treated quite sort of differently and the way they've developed is clearly a different approach in each of them even though
28:13
they're sort of similarish bases um with that rogike. So how how did how was that process for you? How did you sort of get
28:20
to that? So in don't surf the characters uh that
28:26
you play with there's a limited pool and then they're all very unique. They some
28:33
of them have hidden mechanics because um Don Surf is all about uh surprises and
28:40
and and mysteries. Even the lore of the of the game of the
28:46
world, it's hidden. And people have been uncovering it over the years. And uh
28:52
when we were at Clay, they told us they have like a a bunch of people who are like don't
28:58
serve detectives and uh sometimes they will launch something and and these
29:03
people will like have like code run through their website to look for hidden
29:10
stuff. It's like mental. Wow. Um uh but in a good way. And um with this
29:18
kind of dedication uh you know all all these characters they they need to come
29:24
at at a very uh uh unique angle and that
29:30
that's one aspect. So the characters uh they don't uh
29:37
these characters they don't uh get developed like in your classic like I know in Hades or or some some fighting
29:44
games. the way they kind of um get more powerful is with equipment with your
29:50
knowledge with your blueprints and and the stuff that you gather and your knowledge of the world and of its
29:56
mechanics. So with that knowledge with that keeping that in mind and that we
30:03
want this game to be extremely replayable like it's uh original version
30:09
we knew that we wanted to make the game scenario based so that uh when you play
30:17
a scenario uh it's not going to be so long like a campaign and that when once
30:24
you you fail at that uh which you will uh at a certain point maybe you know
30:31
just at the beginning when you realize when you realize you haven't built armor and it's like the most important thing in the game that
30:37
kind of there's a smile obviously you know we're uh we're we're
30:42
with the the we want to do an onboarding process so so you know especially the
30:48
digital uh players they won't be get discouraged too much but on the other hand they will have advantage over the
30:55
board gamers knowing uh how the world works. Yeah. Uh
31:01
so so getting back to to the topic, the the scenarios they um they'll uh they do
31:10
compose like a complete uh story. They overlap with some stuff and there is a
31:16
meta progression factor. But uh you can play a scenario many many times with
31:22
many different people because uh the map is procedurally generated and so are the
31:29
setup and conditions and and all of that stuff. So it's never like repeated.
31:36
Also with a different character you'll have an completely different approach the completely different way of starting
31:42
the game. And uh the roguel likeness is
31:47
that uh in uh in done stuff together when somebody dies there are ways to
31:52
bring them back. So we approach this with the effigy uh that you have for
31:58
your character. There's a special token that uh for a scenario uh you can die
32:05
one character can can die uh once. So if you're playing with a group of three
32:10
friends and one of them dies, we sort of assume that you were able to kind of bring them back,
32:16
but this is the one last time. Uh so the next time you guys some somebody falls,
32:23
the whole group is screwed. Um so that's how we approach the
32:28
rogikeness uh factor. uh obviously some scenarios can uh can can twist that or
32:36
uh you know uh the way we've it's something that I'm really proud of my
32:42
team uh the I think all of our games so far the the design has been so modular
32:48
that you can sort of install um different modules to to it. So uh with
Who are the characters in Don't Starve?
32:54
some expansions we hope to do in the future or maybe unlock during the campaign. I'm sure there's gonna be
33:01
plenty of ways to to enjoy those mechanics. Yeah. Nice.
33:06
Nice. So, if you kind of for those that don't know the characters in in Don't Starve, obviously you kind of alluded to that
33:12
they they've got hidden little traits and maybe not go into some of that cuz we want we want backers to experience the game and
33:18
experience those things, but generally like uh what can you tell us about the characters? Who have we got that don't
33:24
know the IP? Uh they they're some of them are super funny. Uh, all of them are really
33:30
creepy. Uh, there's a there's a girl uh who who
33:36
has a dead sister uh and and and sees dead people. Uh, there's another girl uh
33:43
who's an arsonist. Uh, there's a guy uh there's a boy uh
33:48
who is a spider or basically he was eaten by spiders and lives inside the
33:54
spider body and all the spiders like him. But the pigmen don't. Yeah.
33:59
And you know, there's the there's so much stuff going on there. Uh um and you
34:07
know, one of the characters, one of the guys whom uh obviously we're on a podcast, so you won't see it. Uh but um
34:18
this guy Wilson. Wilson. Yeah. Uh he he he his power is
34:23
that he grows a magnificent beard and he's magnificent as well. Yeah.
34:28
Yeah. And and uh and in the board game as well as in the digital game, you can uh shave off the beard and actually use
34:36
it as a as a resource. So, you know, there's uh there's so much uh so much
34:42
cool stuff to to play there with. Um, and and as with all things we we've said
34:50
about, you know, being inspired by Tim Burton, by the grotesque and and the macabresque. Uh, there there there's
34:57
really um some some cool stuff with the scenarios. For example, the scenario
35:02
we're demoing at UK Games Expo, uh, The Feast of the Pig King. I love it how our
35:09
our um uh copyriter Richard made sure that everything is written in pros. So
35:16
when when you when you read the lore of the of the scenario, it's like reading
35:21
this this weird poem and uh and there there's a miniame inside the scenario
35:28
because you need to deliver um ingredients for the feast. uh and uh on
35:35
the scenario card uh you mark them and it creates sort of like a bingo
35:41
but it has like another layer that you learn of after you've completed certain stages that you were like oh we probably
35:48
should not have filled that row. So we'll know that for the future but for now we're screwed.
35:56
That's it. Try by error. That's how that's pretty much how most rogue likes go, right? Let's try my error. Just keep
How do the dice and monster interactions work?
36:03
going, iterate, improve. Yeah. So, we're we're really enjoying
36:08
the working on on on the title and, you know, finding all the cruel ways to to make the players miserable.
36:17
Love it. Nice. And I keep going back to the image that's on the front of the Kickstarter
36:23
page, and there's some really funky dice. Do you want to tell us anything about those dice? Cuz they are really
36:28
like we've seen custom printed dice before, but they do look really funky. Yes, they are. Like uh when we started
36:35
the prototype, it had like 36 dice and was like, "Guys, uh I want this game to
36:42
be sold at retail stores, not so we many custom dice probably going to
36:50
reach some very high numbers and that's not, you know, where wanted to go with the price of this product. So, we had to
36:57
find creative ways to to to limit the amount of components there. Uh, and
37:03
that's how we came up with with some of these dies. Um, there's basically um
37:09
two types of dice. One set is for the characters. It's their success die and
37:15
it also combines uh um the the numbers
37:20
uh so it determines uh how successful uh characters were in finding loot uh
37:26
during their travels uh throughout biomes. Um, it uh
37:33
works for combat because you need successes because to win a combat with a monster, you need to uh uh exceed the
37:41
amount of successes um the monster has. Um on their dice. Um and the third thing
37:49
the the character dice do is they tell you if your equipment broke. uh because
37:55
uh the as any good crafting game, the equipment gets uh damaged and and
38:01
destroyed and you need to repair it and there's ways to do that or craft it again. Uh so it's free things hidden in in in
38:09
one set of dice. And the second set of dice is the monster dice. Um, and these
38:16
uh basically are used to also measure up against all dangers of the world because
38:22
sometimes you will enter some place that's going to be dangerous or infested with with with monsters of different
38:28
kinds and and and quantities and to see how um to reflect how much uh you were
38:37
forced to run away from them and to get how much damage you got or or or or you
38:44
know how difficult it is to to slaughter a a huge monster before you get equipped. Uh we needed some kind of
38:51
mechanic to to reflect that. And that's the the set of uh monster dice.
38:57
Nice. So so with some of the monsters, they kind of have a a preset attack pattern and stuff like that, don't they?
39:02
And so you can kind of know how to predict and kite them about and stuff like that. Have you been able to include any of that in the board game or sort of
39:08
replicate that in any way? Yeah, absolutely. So, uh, some monsters are stronger during during the day or
39:15
during the night because we also have day and night cycle like in almost all
39:20
of the games we did so far. Yeah. Yeah. Common. Uh
39:28
um but generally um the the the thing is that uh uh for example uh uh poll uh
39:38
it's weaker during the night because it doesn't see so well in in in uh in darkness and then there's plenty of
39:45
stuff that's murderous uh when you meet it uh uh when it's dark uh especially
39:50
the shadow creatures. Uh so um also some
39:56
creatures will steal items from you. Uh and all of that is reflected in in in in
40:02
their mechanics and attack patterns. Uh also the type of terrain sometimes will determine uh um how you will defer in
40:11
combat. So um we managed to include all of that in in in the board game.
40:17
Nice. Wow. Sounds great. Yeah. to kind of pack all that in, especially with only, you know, if you only got a few dice to use
40:23
as well really as as sort of other bits and pieces. That's exciting. Like for me, achievement. Yeah. I've not played the video game and
40:30
uh I've watched a few streams of I think the early prototype um on on gaming
40:36
rules actually. I think Paul did a a stream of a while back and uh yeah, it looks cool. Like it's like a quirky
40:42
little world. It's something to get lost in and like you said, get murdered uh over over and over and over and over again. for me that it's like that little
Some Don't Starve teasers
40:50
Frost Punk vibes coming back going, "Oh, yeah. You thought you were done with the ball kicking." No, no, it's there's more
40:56
here. So, yes, it's great. That looks cool. Can we be cheeky? Is there anything we
41:02
can ask of that you can tease that's not currently on the page? There must be something.
41:07
There's plenty of stuff. So, um I can tell you guys that um
41:14
the how Clay approached this uh doesn't only
41:19
end at art and lore. So, we'll have uh some ex exclusive for the board game uh
41:27
skins for the uh for the game because uh the game is like you buy it and you own
41:35
it. there's no DLC's like paid stuff or whatever, but people when they play it for like 10
41:40
years, they want to look different. And there's a lot of some a lot of skins and and you know, stuff like this that you
41:46
can make your sort of game uh unique. So, and and apparently I didn't know
41:53
that it was so crazy, but uh some of the skins uh go on eBay uh being worth more than
42:02
your typical board game. Uh that's that's yeah, that's that's that's
42:07
bonkers. like uh we we got this miniature from like a plushy from from the guys from Clay and say
42:14
they said do not lose the uh
42:19
QR code or something QR code because it's worth like five times more than the plastic like what
42:26
like what like you know for a board gamer it's like kind of weird right we're used to
42:33
the physical thing being worth something because you can touch it you can Apparently it works differently. It's
42:41
the same for Apex, right? Yes. This case, but but here we we are
42:46
actually going to have some some really nice support from Clay. Uh so all the buckers can count on some exclusive uh
42:52
cool stuff and all also um we you funny you've mentioned uh how
43:00
how to you know bring the 2D um uh art to to a 3D miniature because uh we
43:07
really want to do a solid with miniatures here. So um uh there's going
43:13
to be some some options for that uh like in teeth. [Music]
Expanding GCU collaborations and working with more Studios
43:19
exciting stuff. Exciting. Exciting. Exciting. No, that's cool. Got to love a bit of extra info.
43:27
Yeah, we all do. We all do. Always got to find that little exclusive.
43:33
Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you've got an amazing working relationship with with those publishers then. So, and and one
43:40
of the things that we're kind of interested, we were talking about this before we went live, was when you
43:45
started the studio, obviously you you knew it through computer games. So, you launched the first sort of two games
43:52
you'd worked on through computer games. Was your mind then on, well, this is it. We're going to keep working with IPs and doing computer games and all that kind
43:58
of stuff. And if if so, sort of what are those relationships like? How how do you sort of get involved in that further than the
44:05
sort of couple of studios, you know, you know, how do you how do you approach the next one? So the the story differs from company to
44:13
company and from game to game because uh some some some of it is like super
44:20
opportunistic. Uh uh one of the people with whom we worked on a game that
44:27
worked in a studio changes their um job and went to just goes to another place.
44:35
And then after a year, we hear from them and they say, "It was really good
44:40
working with you guys. You you knew what you were doing and you know, I'm working on this title right now. Would you like
44:46
would you consider working on it?" And sometimes it's like, "Oh my god, we really wanted to work on I know Hollow
44:54
Night." So, um let's reach out and see whom I know who knows someone. Um or
45:01
maybe I met them at some convention or a digital uh game um meeting like Gamescom
45:08
or something. Uh because I I do travel to them sometimes and I and I did travel to them um back in the day when I was
45:15
doing the small mobile games. um uh and
45:21
uh having worked in in in that industry almost a decade ago now when the world
45:27
was smaller uh all of not all but a lot of the people I've met working in teand
45:34
and briefly working in city project uh or a company that was both I I I always
45:40
keep laughing that I worked in city project for a day because the company I I worked um in uh got bought by CD
45:48
Project and and uh the day I I finished my uh contract with them uh they became
45:55
CD Project u in my home city. So nice um
46:01
I I basically know all these guys over the years uh who are based in Poland and
46:07
and some outside and uh it it's just like any other business um I I I think
46:15
it is uh any other business um relationship it's based on your opinion
46:21
on on on your work and your work ethic. So I I always try to be like super fair
46:28
and open uh whenever we're talking with studios or their representatives
46:33
and you know I think the key is just just open communication. So sometimes we
46:38
get approached by uh companies and I had to say more say no to more than one
46:46
opportunity that I really wanted wanted to work on but we simply couldn't
46:51
because we are just a limited amount of people. We grew from a team of four or
46:57
five people to a team of third over 30 people right now with some freelancers and some friends helping us from from
47:04
different u industries. But uh I I always said I I I
47:11
think that a person can keep control maybe not control but oversee a company
47:18
up to 25 30 people and this is what we are right now. So, I think this is like
47:23
a perfect size for a studio of of of what we want to do right now. Yeah.
47:29
Um, and I would really love to to keep it that way. Um, and only then I can I
47:37
can feel uh confident that if I'm talking with somebody and promising them
47:42
something or saying no, we cannot uh I am sure of it because uh I do have my
47:49
hands dipped in all the aspects of the company. And um I still get to enjoy some private
47:57
life from time to time. not very often uh w with that but um yeah so so I was
48:06
just saying uh I think it's just an open relationship and and and uh sometimes uh
48:12
uh people approach us sometimes we approach them uh sometimes it's uh the
48:17
agents licensing agents because of the certain IPs of of certain level they
48:24
it's impossible to approach them and say like um hey I want to make a board game.
48:29
Can we do this? And I'm really good at it. And here's the games I did. And they're like,
48:34
"Yeah, so what?" Like, I've got 50 other people waiting here. Uh, and you know, y
48:40
uh so you you can go and uh stand in the queue or or or whatever. So
48:47
uh it's with each game, it's a different story. It's a different relationship.
48:54
And just trying to be sane. um we need to limit it somehow. Um and I think the
49:02
plan is for the next few years obviously we will we won't stop where we are but
49:08
especially with Diablo and and and Dawn Starve um and Frostbank because uh uh we
49:15
do want to continue working on that and there are some really cool opportunities especially with you know 11 bit studios
49:22
being so close uh uh to us in our hearts. uh
49:27
that we we want to take some time to kind of uh uh look back at what we did
49:35
and try and continue uh doing a little bit more in terms of growing
49:40
um to the expansions and revisiting some stuff, remastering maybe. Um
49:48
uh but uh also doing doing a little bit of
49:53
new um titles on the way. I I have my eyes on on on two
50:01
games. I cannot say yet. No. [Laughter]
50:06
If only if only I could. If only I could if only it happened. But
50:11
but yeah, definitely, you know, it's it's a it's a dance. It's it's a dance
50:18
where you need to balance if if you you're not going in too deep or, you
50:23
know, uh look back if you haven't lost your partners along the way. So, um it's
50:29
uh it's quite tricky, but I it's also really exciting. Yeah, it's also that that thing is it's
50:35
knowing when to say no, isn't it? And and it's hard sometimes. cuz I can imagine that you just get an opportunity
50:40
that's lands and you're like I really want to do it though, but you just know if you're being realistic about it and
50:48
what that would actually mean to not only yourself, the team and everything else, you want to quality products.
50:54
Yeah, absolutely. And some projects are just too risky, you know, like uh um if it was just me uh one or two of my
51:03
friends, it would have been different. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, one of the biggest
51:08
responsibilities besides being a father for me is uh feeling that I'm you know
51:14
my decisions will reflect on on uh my employees with whom, you know, we have a
51:19
really tight uh relationship and we are um we all like each other here. So yeah,
51:27
uh when I'm making a decision together with Pav or or or some of the other
51:33
guys, we we always try to be uh super conscious
51:38
of what we're doing. Uh uh we're not playing uh uh here in a
51:45
game just, you know, to fulfill our egos or something. It's it's uh
An aside on Apex Legends
51:50
it it's it's become uh too too serious of a thing to to to just you know uh uh
51:57
be a clueless uh uh guy walking through and and trying to you know make some
52:03
cool stuff. Yeah, we get that vibe, you know, when we we kind of meet you guys at the the
52:09
conventions, whether it's UK Games Expo or whatever, you know, we speak to your team and they've just got that that that
52:16
passion's there. doesn't matter who you speak to. They're they're like they're really hyped about it. And I remember we
52:21
we talked to um one of the team about Apex Legends, right? I'm going to say I
52:27
shouldn't like this game. Like this this game is not like I don't play the video game. I'm not a big first person shooter
52:33
and actually I'm not really a skirmish kind of uh you know guys in a miniature shooty
52:39
shooty kind of game. It's not my game. But I love it. And it's like I don't know what the hell you've done to to
52:45
sprinkle some of the magic sauce in this game, but you it it just works and it just creates stories. Um I mean we we
52:53
played recently, right, Adrian? Um we did and and we was on opposite teams and I
52:59
think I was playing two legends cuz we had a guy drop out unfortunately. I was like, "Oh crap, I'm
53:05
going to have to do two legends now." And Adrian Curley on the other team and oh it it was such a blast. I was playing
53:11
was it Crypto and Lifeline and and you were who were you Adrian? Pathfinder.
53:17
Pathfinder and uh and Jibralta was playing. That's it. So yeah and it was just some
53:24
funny shenanigans all over with, you know, just bombardments and Adrian
53:29
getting pushed into his uh his teammates bombardment zone and then he's hooking me into my own uh EMP field. Like it was
53:37
just it was carnage but in the best way. And and I think that's what that game really excels at is just the stories it
53:45
tells within a relatively short play time really what kind of go once you get
53:50
the hang of the rules it's you're flying and yeah but it's that it's that the guys are like yes as your
53:58
team like yes it's another one but yeah they're great great bunch we love coming to see you guys
54:04
I I'm I'm really happy to hear you you enjoy it so much and and you know um I
54:09
hope the the word will spread about the Apex because it's it's it's been uh a a
54:17
really um cool project for for it was our second project after Frostbank
54:24
and um so much um dedication went into it and
54:29
and and uh our development team uh you know uh the guys who started as
54:36
testers uh on this project they're Now, you know, one of them is the head of
54:41
development right now for for us. Uh, and and then there's Rafa and Jesek who
54:47
are the designers uh for um
54:53
for Don Starf and and and um on Apex they were the main developers. So, um
55:00
there's absolutely uh it's been a learning experience, uh but
55:06
also great game, a huge a huge box of of
55:12
passion. Uh and I've put a lot of my uh uh myself in in into their product with
55:18
uh with some other team members. uh you know like uh the diuramas we did uh the
55:24
the boxes they people were like what is it why are you
55:29
making it but when when it's u when you actually have it and and and you're using it it's just looks so nice and
55:36
just adds to the to the whole layer right um so it's it's really nice for me to to
55:42
to hear that uh especially as you said non non video gamers enjoy it but also
55:49
on convent ventions whenever you know there's a father with a son approaching and and and I can see that
55:57
the lad the lad plays uh Apex on PC and the father is a board gamer and whenever
56:03
they get the chance to get drawn into this oh my god it's it's it's great
56:12
you mentioned on like don't starve that obviously it started off a lot more complicated and I think you definitely would have had it I am a skirmish war
56:19
gamer like I love my sort of bands of nine or 10 that sort of go on a table and move all about. So having two
56:26
characters I imagine cuz I would you'd want to pack every rule in possible to make it the most accurate representation
56:32
of the video game but you've done such a great job of keeping it fun and yet streamlining it
56:38
and there's like I won't get into it too much because people can just go out and play the game, right? like find it. Yeah.
56:44
Duration and cool down, the to hit modifiers and how the how the the lack
56:50
of rolling dice for me was a big sales point cuz it it's it can be a bug bear of mine
56:55
in some skirmish games if I'm honest. So So not seeing a single dice on the table and just having that that deck of cards.
57:02
I think I think you've done a great job of of boiling it down yet keeping it so each playthrough can be different and
57:08
unique and each character has flavor and all that lot. So you can see that you've clearly learned that there and
57:14
it's something you've been able to take on to your next projects, right? Abs. Absolutely. And you know with um
57:19
especially with um uh once you get deeper into the game because um
57:27
the publishers when when we did the language editions they they came to us and said guys this was supposed to be um
57:36
an accessible board game, a skirmish game in a box. H but the manual and the
57:44
scenarios it's like 200 pages. And we were like, "Yeah, but the amount
57:52
of stuff that's in there, it's going to last you a decade because all the play
57:57
modes." uh we we just, you know, at a certain point we knew that uh we
58:05
we'll have to pack everything uh we want inside this because who knows if there's
58:12
going to be a new addition. uh how you know we're working with a
58:19
huge company here right with with EI and um people change their management
58:25
changes you know a lot of different things can happen so we we we wanted to
58:32
be sure that when we release the game it's going to be what we wanted to say
58:37
with it and especially the the designers they they they went the extra mile to create the the testers to create the all
58:44
the playing modes to to come up with some really creative stuff of of using those um
58:51
components and that's the that's your modularity of design. I I was talking uh
58:56
as well as what 12 playable characters at the moment. Yeah, there's 12 playable characters. There's there's so many uh game modes to
59:04
play with two players, four, six, and so on. And I've heard people playing with
59:10
more uh there there there was this team of guys. Yeah, they had like two copies of the game and they I think they placed
59:17
10 10 people or 12. They just, you know, made they they they home ruled a lot of
59:23
stuff. But uh yeah, it was like over a weekend and they were just so excited about it. So
59:30
it's it's it's great. We got two copies. JP, you want to get
59:35
We could do it. Why not? Well, we we both got the the the board expansions, right?
59:40
So, you you could just create some monthly madness of a of a map of, you
59:45
know, four life tiles or something. Who knows? Let's do it.
59:50
I'm not sure we have the time. That's the usual. That's Yeah, that's the biggest uh restrictor, right? Sounds fun. I'm down.
59:58
Absolutely. Now, you talk you're talking about the 200 scenarios and it remind me actually I think I've seen three versions of the
1:00:04
line of sight for that game. because line of sight is hard in skirmish games. It always is. Doesn't matter what you
1:00:10
play, what war game, whether it's on a grid or not, it's always difficult. So to sort of see it slowly come down in
1:00:16
number of pages that it took up. And it's now kind of it's quite easy to understand and get into for line of sight, I was quite
1:00:23
quite pleased with. It's what it's like three pages with examples, maybe four pages with examples. And that's I think that's a
1:00:29
pretty good feat, especially from say when I saw the early one and I think it was like nine pages, I think I remember reading online site rules. The the the
1:00:36
thing with line of sight in all games like this, it's u
1:00:42
always the biggest uh pitfall for any kind of quarrels and misunderstandings
1:00:49
between players. Yep. Um uh we all played
1:00:55
and know I I'm sure Adrian you played 40k. Um, yeah. So, you know, the the
1:01:03
amount of uh fights over, hey, I see you, no, I don't see you. It's something
1:01:09
that can ruin a really good game. So, we we knew we wanted to to make it
1:01:15
as as straightforward as possible, but, you know, with uh multiple elevations,
1:01:20
with with obstacles, and without simplifying it too much, uh uh we had to
1:01:27
look for a golden middle. And uh and I'm I'm I'm quite happy personally with
1:01:32
where where we are uh with Apex. Uh glad to hear it. Uh you guys um say so as
1:01:39
well. Uh it could have been probably a bit simpler, but then it wouldn't take into
1:01:46
account uh so many things like the uh the projectiles, the grenades, the
1:01:52
bombardment, the the elevation difference, and so on and so on. and wi
1:01:57
with the superpowers those characters have teleportation setting up all that stuff. Um I mean um I think I think the
1:02:06
game uh and and it comes uh without any fake modesty because uh I wasn't
1:02:12
designing it. So uh it's only a praise towards my my my team. Um the design the
1:02:18
game is at the best place it it it uh can possibly be uh within such a like a
1:02:24
limited product line. um meaning that it's supposed to be uh a wholesome
1:02:31
product, not something that you will be buying like we you know
1:02:36
our money is being drained on our beloved Warhammer stuff uh over a period
1:02:42
of Yeah, forever. Yeah, forever. U and uh we we just knew
1:02:52
we wanted to make a a wholesome product here. Uh, and coming back to the
1:02:58
scenarios, um, uh, I don't know if it's prudent of me to to to mention it by name, but there's there was, um, another
1:03:05
skirmish game released in in a very popular science fiction universe. Um,
1:03:11
uh, not not not long um before Apex Legends. And
1:03:18
a lot of my mates who play competitive 40k and and and kale team and so on,
1:03:24
they said uh it's a really good design. And is it that it only came with one scenario? Is that what you're going to
1:03:29
say? Yeah. Yeah, I know the game. Yeah, fair enough. Yeah. And it was sort of like the biggest downfall of of of that whole
1:03:37
product range, right? Um, it's put it back I think it's put that again we'll we'll talk in riddles here
1:03:43
but I think it's put that whole line back by about a year absolutely by coming out people tried it you got
1:03:49
the buzz you got the hype of a new game coming out you play it you've got one scenario to play for 3 months I think it
1:03:55
was four months oh I think I think even longer because uh from what I heard the the the new
1:04:00
stuff was sort of like the same but with some smaller twist uh basically
1:04:07
basically Um we we wanted to avoid uh that and and we had some uh guys who
1:04:15
play uh competitive 40k help us with the tournament rules and everything. So what
1:04:21
we served in in this this this meal is like a it's like a superfood. It has
1:04:28
everything in it. And uh uh although it wasn't the biggest financial success for
1:04:33
our company, nor nor is like the the best seller right now, but everybody who
1:04:39
who owns it and and who played it, um I have yet to meet a person who would say
1:04:47
it's a bad product, it's a bad game. So, everyone has been like super excited
1:04:52
with it. And it's just great to see that, you know, especially with the
1:04:58
Kickstarters we we all order. Uh and I I speak it as not as a CEO of a of a
1:05:04
studio but as as you know a board gamer uh you you get those huge boxes and uh
1:05:12
and when for us and it's it's even a motto uh among my my team like
1:05:21
we we feel obliged to our backers that if they wait they they they leave us
1:05:26
their money uh for one year two years almost free in terms of of Frostbank. Uh
1:05:34
so once they get that product, once they get that game, we owe them like uh
1:05:40
at GCU it doesn't happen that we we make uh for example a scenario or something
1:05:47
that was promised without, you know, testing it well or making sure it's
1:05:52
there for a reason. Yeah, because uh I I've heard I've heard it
1:05:58
said that, you know, some people never open those boxes. Maybe it's it's true, but I I like me nor anyone here at GC,
1:06:08
we would never gamble with something like that. We would just feel really uh bad with it
1:06:14
knowing that we haven't made our best effort to to bring the the game. And you
1:06:21
know, there's probably with with Apex, there's probably going to be like 10 20 people uh who who will play all those
Respecting backers
1:06:29
scenarios, all those different modes, and uh enjoy it as as as as well as they
1:06:34
can. Uh but knowing that it's it's there, it's just, you know, really
1:06:40
important for us uh as a team. That's amazing because again, I've had massive all-in
1:06:47
Kickstarters and and I've not opened half the boxes. Right. But the the number of boxes the boxes I
1:06:54
open will be precious to me but someone else will open different boxes that's precious to them like what
1:07:00
they want to play or whatever. So it's important that everything is is fully built even if only a quarter of backers open that one
1:07:07
box. Yeah. Those quarter of backers will care about that one box. Absolutely.
1:07:12
It's it's uh I think it's something really important um
1:07:18
to to to pay homage to and um also that's why Don Starf is being uh
1:07:25
developed a bit differently. So yeah, it's not going to be like if if you go
1:07:30
for an all-in, it's not going to be small, obviously,
1:07:35
but uh we're not making it uh like uh you know, a middlesized coffin like we
1:07:42
did with Apex. Uh it's a good it's a good weight lift system when you get the
1:07:47
game out there cuz I actually I actually saw it up high on the the shelf because obviously it's quite a long box.
Chatting about Dying Light
1:07:53
So every time I'm getting that thing down like Yeah. Because no pain, no gain. It's it's the only time we w we nerds
1:08:00
use those muscles. Absolutely. And then it's then it's the most important one which is Oh yeah, absolutely.
1:08:07
Um yeah. So uh with with although I cannot promise it will be the case for
1:08:13
dying late because I think this is going to be massive as well.
1:08:19
We've played the prototype um or at least I know I have sort of thing a borrowed a borrowed copy of it sort of
1:08:25
thing and that had enough in it and I was like this is like one scenario. What's what you can do with the rest of
1:08:30
it? Yeah, it's it's going to be like but I'm I'm also uh I think for Dying Light uh
1:08:39
for me personally uh it's one of my my favorite games uh read it because of how
1:08:46
accessible it is. The I'm a huge fan of of the dice system
1:08:51
um came up with with with Bartk, our designers. Uh it's just this this whole
1:08:59
uh emotional cycle cycle of rolling the dice. It it matches dying light so well.
1:09:04
It's like roll and see what you what what luck gets you and what you can make the best
1:09:12
out of it with the amount of symbols and and and stuff you you have the dice
1:09:17
allocation there. It's it's I love it. Um and it's about keeping that showing that
1:09:22
you're keeping that pace to get the extra dice, right? Like it's that that was the bit that came through for me was it's like okay I've got to keep
1:09:28
I've got to keep moving. I've got to keep doing stuff cuz it gets me extra actions, which is kind of what you need
1:09:34
in order to succeed, right? And how the game changes in later stages when when you're reaching like when
1:09:41
you're in the fourth or or uh or sixth scenario, the way the game changes and
1:09:48
how the um how you as a runner have different opportunities to do stuff and how many
1:09:55
more infected you can run through the progression. I I mean, I love it. It's It's just really fun to see that.
1:10:01
Nice. Yeah. And I think as a studio, one thing that really stands out to me as well is that
1:10:08
um every one of your games has re heavy replayability.
1:10:14
Oh yeah. So you look at Frost Punk with all the scenarios and the expansions. We talked about Apex already. You know, Dying
1:10:20
Light, we know there's a bunch of scenarios in there. It's clear if you just say if you get a demo somewhere, it's clear that that's going to be
1:10:25
infinitely not infinitely, but it's going to be very expandable and unique. And and you know, we've talked about Don't Starve, and that's
1:10:32
that's definitely set up to be that um that sort of is it the last wish? I
1:10:37
think you're calling it as the mechanic, that last wish scenario sort of thing. It's um it's showing that you guys are
1:10:44
sort of centered around that. And that makes me really excited for Diablo as well because I if you can keep producing
1:10:52
those experiences and it seems something that you you guys there are just fantastic at doing. If you can continue
1:10:59
to show that and put that into Diablo and all your other projects in the future. Uh it just makes me really
1:11:04
excited for for those kind of upcoming projects as well. Thanks for raising the uh the bar even
1:11:11
higher. No pressure. Yeah, no pressure. No, but I I I I I do appreciate it, Adrian. And
1:11:19
uh I think it follows the same uh pattern of thinking like I said with the
1:11:25
with all the uh additional stuff unlocked during the campaign, the
1:11:30
replayability, especially that like I'm not saying that
1:11:36
cheaper games don't have to be replayable. I'm just saying that with uh
1:11:41
the games we make uh or made so far uh they they were always an investment for
1:11:47
for people and uh uh uh the amount of repability is is I think u
1:11:55
something that uh for many of us uh if we spend a certain amount of u money on
1:12:00
a on a board game um uh uh and play it like 10 20 30 times And then we do feel
1:12:10
like I do have friends who literally played the the cardboard of their board games like
1:12:16
they had to laminate them or something and it's always uh such a praise for the
1:12:22
creators I think that that that the game gives them so much uh fun.
1:12:29
We've talked about it a little bit on the podcast before. There's sort of that magic number. It seems to be like between three and five games. If you can
1:12:35
get if you can play if you play three or five games quite often you're going to play it a lot more. It seems like sort
1:12:41
of once you've got to that point you've decided whether it's going on the sale pile or it's sort of going on the shelf
1:12:46
for eternity sort of thing you know. So if you create that ability to have it replayable and and after two or three
1:12:52
scenarios you think to yourself ah there's still more I can get into there. You're going to hopefully pass that
1:12:58
magic number. Right. That's kind of I suppose part of it. Absolutely.
1:13:03
So JP mentioned it sort of early on in the show, but I saw you kind of running
1:13:09
around if I'm honest. I think I I think I walked into you by accident about nine times in three days at Expo and not on
1:13:15
your stand. It wasn't like I just kept coming back to your stand. I think I went there twice. Yeah, I think I went there twice.
1:13:20
every time it was just oh
1:13:26
you part of it is that um at the for the first uh years of of of
1:13:34
our company um and me going to conventions it was uh work and whenever
1:13:40
you go to a convention and you have a booth uh it's a different experience
1:13:46
than going to a convention as a convention goer. Yeah. And uh since uh last year uh I I have
1:13:54
the sort of um luxury I could say of of of not having
1:14:01
to do everything uh on the booth. There's there's other people there helping and and taking care of it. And I
1:14:07
can finally run around and and enjoy the convention a little bit. So I I I I do
1:14:14
get excited about games just like you guys and running around to see all the new stuff, meet all the people I see
1:14:20
sometimes once a year. Um I think it's one of the best things of uh of going to
TURN 4 - What's Coming Up
1:14:26
conventions for me, seeing all the new titles, how how the industry, how
1:14:31
colleagues uh from from different companies are able to come up with new creative solutions to to to make board
1:14:39
games. It's uh one of my favorite things. Yeah. So, where where can they see you running around next? Where's the next
1:14:45
convention? Where can they nor your ear off about Don't Starve the Well, obviously the the the biggest show
1:14:52
it's going to be Essen. Uh we're going to be after the just after the uh campaign
1:15:00
for uh for Don't Starve. So, we'll be um probably uh uh doing some some
1:15:06
follow-ups like late pledges. um but also showing off the the prototypes to
1:15:12
to everyone who's backed or or or is still deciding. But also we'll be presenting um March of Empires uh uh a
1:15:21
title we announced at Gen Con, but it's been um sort of like um maybe not
1:15:28
overshadowed uh but with the amount of projects we have um it's something for
1:15:34
uh we're planning on releasing next year. So, we're not focusing communication wise on it so much for
1:15:41
now, but it's a project I'm really excited about because um it uh it's a
1:15:47
collaboration with Game Loft and not only did they hire Hoff Bjönson, the the
1:15:54
mountain, the guy who played the mountain in Game of Thrones to be the face of the game, uh but also the design is is um uh
1:16:04
absolutely magnificent. It features hourglasses that are used to represent allocation of actions to your units and
1:16:12
buildings. Uh but then when the combat is triggered, it's uh initiative card
1:16:18
based. Um and uh I'm I'm just a huge fan
1:16:24
of competitive games like these skirmishes and and battles. And uh I think uh if the game if if we
1:16:32
manage as a as a team as a company to to show um all if it's good sides to to all
1:16:39
the players it's going to be received really well um uh because uh whenever we
1:16:46
play it uh everyone is so excited. There's a lot of shouting and sometimes swearing uh in the office uh and
1:16:54
everyone is like uh moving around uh really rapidly when there's a play
1:16:59
session saying who's going to win. So yeah, that's that's something I'm
1:17:04
really also looking forward to. A I'm glad I'm not making it this year, am I? So I'm really gutted that I won't
1:17:10
be making essence. So no, I am. You are. So I expect full reports on
1:17:16
on this. I'll get a full report on everything I can find. Absolutely. But yeah, I'll definitely swing by and
1:17:22
uh yeah, see see what what goodies are on offer for sure. And uh yeah, hopefully get a little uh a demo of
1:17:29
Don't Star. That'd be cool. So, what else have you got? Anything else you're looking forward to or on the
1:17:34
horizon or anything you just just want to be excited and talk about? So, um I think the uh the the most
1:17:43
exciting uh stuff for now is uh the stuff that's closest, meaning don't surf. Uh but also, um Diablo, the role
1:17:52
playing game. It's something that uh we're working on with uh Joe Leav from
1:18:00
Genuine Entertainment. He's uh sort of uh an expert on a shadow broker of RPGs
1:18:06
and and and he's he's helping us, you know, he's basically producing the role
1:18:11
playing game uh with us uh with so many uh incredible people um involved uh
1:18:19
being artists and and and designers. I'm not gonna, you know, start even
1:18:25
pronouncing them all because it's it's a list that's gonna take like five or 10 minutes to beat through. Uh but u
1:18:33
you know who you are. Yeah. Uh but basically um this is
1:18:39
exciting new chapter for Glass Cannon uh because it's uh going to be uh the first
1:18:45
role playinging system we we publish and a massive one at that. Uh uh it's the
1:18:52
first one but not the last one. Uh so yeah
1:18:58
um there's plenty more fruits in the basket where it came from. Uh but we'll
1:19:04
have to save that for a later date. Another day. Yeah. I mean it's caught Adam um at UKG
Thanking Jakub
1:19:11
as well as yourself and he was clearly pumped for the Diablo role playing game and what everything had to offer there.
1:19:16
So yeah, I'll be keeping a keen eye on that myself. So glad that you guys are
1:19:22
excited for it. Yeah, great news. Awesome. Well, just yeah, a massive thank you to
1:19:27
come on the podcast, Goober. It's been great catching up with you. Um, obviously good luck with the Kickstarter. We're big fans in case
1:19:33
people hadn't realized um of of everything you do um so of everything you've done so far. So, we're really
1:19:39
looking forward to sort of your next couple of chapters. But just thank you for your time. Much appreciated and best of luck with the Kickstarter, as I said.
1:19:46
My pleasure. Thank you. Thank you for having me, JP and Adrian. Uh uh you know, it's it's always a pleasure to to
1:19:53
chat once we meet uh the conventions, but uh this this has been really great.
1:19:58
Uh so I hope we can repeat it uh uh next year with some new uh stuff I can reveal
1:20:06
uh and see how many of the of of the surprises I I mentioned come to
TURN 5 - The Final Turn
1:20:12
fruition. Yeah, anytime. We'll put something in the calendar definitely. If not, we'll get you at Expo, so it's
1:20:19
fine. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you so much, guys.
1:20:24
Thank you. [Music]
1:20:33
And that's it from us here at the Who's Turning Anyway podcast. Please follow Don't Starve on Kickstarter. It's
1:20:39
looking like a great project. Please go and have a look at their page. As always, we appreciate it if you interact
1:20:44
with us on all of our socials. So, find us wherever you can and just say hello.
1:20:49
Maybe let us know what you've enjoyed of Glass Cannon Unplugs Games and and sort of if you're looking forward to Don't
1:20:55
Starve. As always, if you enjoy our podcast as well, we do have coffee um that where you can just throw us a few
1:21:01
pennies to keep doing what we do and just helping us to improve hopefully what we do. And that's us. Thank you
1:21:08
very much and until next turn, whose turn is it anyway? Heat.
1:21:13
[Music]