Episode 83: Variable Variabilities

Adrian takes us into the world of variation in board games.  We discuss the various ways and mechanisms that game design does this and whether we personally like them or not and why.

FIRST PLAYER: Adrian
OTHER PLAYERS: JP & Rob

In this episode you'll learn:
- that we have a new Discord so come and Join us on Discord and say hi
- that Adrian has can to Warp 9 in Star Trek Ascendency by Gale Force Nine Games
- that the Lacerdaverse is extended to Rob as he plays Lisboa by Eagle-Gryphon Games
- JP gets a full playthrough of The Old Kings Crown by Eerie Idol Games

LINKS REFERENCED IN THE SHOW
Upcoming Live Show on YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3GGJObgufw

EPISODE CHAPTERS

0:00 - TURN 1 - Player Count

2:37 - Join our Discord

5:00 - We're going LIVE!!!!!

7:40 - TURN 2 - Let's Talk About Hex

8:46 - JP - The Old Kings Crown

19:07 - Adrian - Star Trek Ascendency

31:39 - Rob - Lisboa

37:11 - TURN 3 - Main Event: Variable Variabilities

40:35 - Asymmetry

48:13 - Narrative, Scenarios & Chance Cubes

52:31 - Public & Private Goals

57:49 - Plug & Play Modules

1:04:26 - Deck Construction

1:10:45 - Character Builds

1:16:04 - TURN 4 - Konn4ct F4ur

1:22:34 - TURN 5 - Penultimate Turn: What's Coming Up?

1:34:44 - TURN 6 - The Final Turn

You can check out JP's new podcast called Just Play right here https://www.justplaypod.co.uk we'd love to have you and also on the new YouTube channel https://www.youtube.com/@JustPlayPodcast

ENGAGING WITH THE SHOW
- Join us on Discord

Transcript

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TURN 1 - Player Count
0:00
[Music]
0:17
Hello and welcome to Whose Turn Is It Anyway, a podcast all about our board gaming group and of course the board games that we play. I am Adrian, your
0:24
first player, and today I have with me the fluctuating Rob. Hello. and the irregular JP.
0:31
Sure. Irregular. Irregular. Yeah. Nice. On this episode, we will be talking
0:37
about variable variables. That's what are inboard games that add variety and
0:42
what we're willing to put up with as a level of variety and what we are not. But before we get into that, how is
0:48
everyone doing? Really good. Very well. Very well. Very well.
0:54
Oh, blime me. Yeah. No, it's the weekend. It is the weekend. Well, it's the it's the end of the weekend for us. It is, but it's still good. I've kind of
1:00
got past the days of Sunday going, "Oh, no, work tomorrow." That's cuz you like your job.
1:06
I like my job. So, yeah, I kind of Well, whilst I'm not like, "Ooh, I can't
1:11
wait." It's not that level of excitement, but it's not the dread either. And it's a nice
1:16
in the middle calm. I like that. I like So, Sunday Sunday evenings are quite a chill space for me.
1:22
I'm normally pretty good now, but I've got a few projects I got to go back to. Yeah. That I'm not. It
1:28
sucks. Yeah. Yeah. Hope hope work aren't listening to this. Anyone at work cuz I'm not Nobody's listening to this.
1:33
No. Every now and again someone will go, "Oh, I heard you do a podcast." And I'm like, "Yeah, just I won't mention the
1:39
name of it cuz then you might listen to some of it." Um but yeah, so I've got a couple of projects to go back to after a week off.
1:46
So not Oh god. Yeah. You've had a whole week, haven't you? Had a whole week off. Nice. What you been up to in your week
1:51
off? went off to so I did two things. I went off to London and sort of did a bit of shopping and looking around and all
1:56
that kind of stuff and walked 10 and a half miles in London which I thought was
2:02
pretty good. I decided I wasn't going to use the tube or anything like that and I was just going to wander around and did Hyde Park and sort of Leicester Square
2:09
and all those kind of areas and just had a decent wander around and then I kind of went camping over the
2:14
weekend and did a long hike and there I did six miles and now the 10 miles didn't work didn't nothing
2:21
cuz London's flat. Yes. Six miles up and down a hill and my legs are killing me. It's like
2:27
walking in trial everywhere at the moment cuz it's horrible. Nice.
2:32
But I had a great time. Yeah, that's good. It's what you want from a week off, isn't it? Yeah. We also have a Discord that we've
Join our Discord
2:40
just started. We have. It's exciting. It is exciting. It's cool. I know you kind of mentioned it on the last episode
2:46
at the end cuz we we built it into our outro. We did. Um but we thought professional outfit.
2:53
I know. It's only taken us three three and a bit years to spin up a Discord server, but hey, we we've done it. We we
3:00
mowled for a while on on the benefits of a Discord server and we thought, you
3:05
know what, we'll go with it and see what happens. Let's do it. And so far, I think I've quite enjoyed
3:10
what I've seen in there. I'm not as active as some of the others in there, but I I've enjoyed what I've seen of people chatting away in there. So, I'm
3:16
quite cool. I'm quite glad that we've started it at this point and hopefully it will just grow. Yeah. I mean, it kind of came about
3:22
because some of our supporters have mentioned this, oh, have you got a Discord server? And I was like, no, but
3:27
we've been talking about it. And I thought, you know, we we kind of meet on an annual basis. I mean, we meet more
3:32
than that, but as in formally, should we say, we as a podcast, we get together, we chat about what we want to do, future
3:39
the podcast, all that kind of stuff. And we said, sod it, now's the time. So, let's do it. And, uh, yeah, so we got
3:45
that in there. So, all the supporters got kind of early access to to kind of test it out and things. So, they've been
3:51
in there and then, yeah, we've we've kind of publicized it out properly now. So, if you're listening to this and
3:56
you're thinking, "Cool, I'd like to join that Discord server." Then check the show notes. Yeah, it's all in there. Just click on that.
4:01
You'll get invited in and uh we'll ask you a few questions just to make sure you're not an AI robot. And uh and you
4:08
more than likely or you're at least a very clever AI robot. Yeah. Or one that likes board games and can name them correctly.
4:13
Yeah. That aren't completely hideous, then we'll let you in and it's fine. Um but no, do come in. And again, for
4:20
those that are supporters, you get some um access to certain channels in there that uh others don't, which you know,
4:26
for early access links to content and other things that we're planning to do later down the line, which would be
4:31
cool. So, yeah. And someone who's a very novice user of Discord, I've actually found it quite
4:37
interesting. Yeah. Like getting stuck in with it. So, yeah, just a great way of chatting to the listeners as well. We've not we've not put anything crazy
4:43
in yet. There's no crazy rules or extra bots that do things for us that I've seen in loads of other Discord servers,
4:49
but maybe we'll add them as time goes on. We'll see how it goes. But for now, we've kept it fairly simple. Just a
4:55
place to chat about board games. Yeah. So, come on in. We'd love to have you. Yeah, definitely.
We're going LIVE!!!!!
5:00
Yeah. And on top of some exciting news, we have more exciting news. Not double
5:05
not double bubble. Yeah, it is indeed. We are dabbling in actual YouTubes. This
5:12
is kind of weird for us. Yeah, we This is so weird. Like the Discord, we sort of talked about do we dabble, do we try, what do
5:18
we do if we want to do something with YouTube? So, you can listen to all of our episodes on YouTube anyway. Yeah, all there
5:24
which they're all there, but we've tried or I say we, there's a few of the team
5:29
got onto a test sort of live stream and tested it out and talked crap for best
5:35
part of 15 20 minutes. like a stand and then and then just randomly then just went right and we're off now. Bye.
5:42
And just left. But yeah, it went well. So with that, we're going to try live
5:49
episodes, do a proper go at it. Yeah. Yeah. So it's a it's still a test, I guess.
5:55
It's still a let's see how it goes. But for now, we're quite excited to try a live episode on YouTube.
6:02
Again, we'll put details out there as and when they're available. So, please come and join us, say hello in the chat,
6:10
and yeah, ask us questions. Yeah, I think this is going to be the the first one we're going to do is
6:15
literally going to be like an ask us anything kind of um topic, should we say. So, it'll literally be whatever the
6:22
hell you kind of want us to talk about the topics, we'll talk about them. And uh this is where the Discord comes in as
6:28
well because we were already asking um uh our kind of supporters there and people who were in there uh to kind of
6:34
ask those questions as a bank as well. Um but yeah, we're just going to give it a go. We like say we did a technical
6:39
test. It worked. So we're going to do a proper proper go and I'll just say
6:44
please subscribe to our YouTube channel cuz it's very very low at the minute because we don't really do visual stuff
6:50
on there at the moment. But we'd like to change that a little bit. And not not unless you like looking at a picture of our logo for an hour and 20
6:56
minutes, which is very good. It's very stimulating. Um, cool logo.
7:01
Yeah. But no, which doesn't move or anything. Just sits there on the screen. Sometimes the
7:07
basics done well is all you need. It could be improved, but um, so no, so we're going to Yeah, let's just put
7:12
ourselves in front of the camera for all of our sins and see what happens. But yeah, please we'd love your support.
7:18
love you to to jump on and and ask those questions and get engaged because that's what really makes it uh a lot of fun. So
7:24
yeah, two exciting things, Adrian. Two exciting things on your last episode of your to be able
7:30
to say on my last of this run. Yeah. Exciting things to say. Look forward to it.
7:35
Should be fun. What could possibly go wrong, right?
TURN 2 - Let's Talk About Hex
7:48
So, this is the last of my run. So, it's the last time for a few episodes now where I get to say we're about to talk
7:53
about you and me and all the good things and the bad things that have been as we
7:59
talk about Hex. Yay. Oh, that's going to be a while before we hear that again. I know cuz we kind of jumbled up the
8:06
order cuz we have an order in which we try and we go and then everyone's lives got busy and it's all out of whack. So,
8:12
it's probably going to be a long time before it comes back around to me as a first player again. It's got it's got really out of sync and
8:18
to the point where I don't even know whose turn it is, which is ironic, but
8:23
um but you're right. Yeah, we had a flow with our order and it kind of worked for a while and
8:28
certain people get busy in certain parts of the year they can't do it and
8:34
but hey, we're making it work. We're making it work. Who knows, Adrian, you might be on sooner than you think.
8:39
So, we'll see. We'll see. It's fine. Who knows? Either way, JP, do you want to tell us about what you have been
8:45
playing recently? Yeah, I've been playing a few things um that I always talk about, so I don't
JP - The Old Kings Crown
8:51
really want to kind of bring those up again. Um but what I did want to to bring was a game of Old King's Crown
8:59
that we played the other night. Um so we got a a copy from Eerie Idol Games when we went to UK Games X-ray. Thank you,
9:05
Pablo, for for that cuz he's a legend. He's a great bloke. Um, and we sat down
9:12
for the first time to to properly play the new I say the new version, the production version of that game because
9:19
we played the prototype on previous years, two years ago. Yeah, it was a while ago now. Yeah. And I played it on gaming rules as
9:25
well. And again, the game's gone through um a lot of tightening up just like a
9:31
lot of games do when they're in prototype stage and they get to their production. Everything feels like it's been tightened up. But I'll kind of come
9:37
back to that in a minute. But for those that don't know what Old King's Crown is, it's kind of, oh god, how do you
9:42
explain this really unique kind of game? Um, the old king is dead. Long live the
9:48
new king, as it were. And you're kind of play as one of four factions that are
9:53
trying to vive for control of the the new kingdom. And the game is now split
9:59
into well, you can either play five rounds, six rounds, or seven rounds if it's a short, medium, or long game. We
10:05
played the medium kind of game. and uh which is the first change from the prototype cuz it was first of 10
10:13
influence um which is the VPs basically but they've just changed it now to a set
10:19
amount of rounds which I actually I quite like cuz you know where you're at you know how many rounds you got left
10:24
you know the time of the game you can kind of move forward um but the kind of
10:29
flow of the game it kind of goes through the different seasons of the year so you got your spring uh summer autumn and and
10:35
and winter and the kind spring beginning of the year um steps is all about you uh
10:42
bidding for uh basically there's like this road or a shop at the top of the
10:47
board. you can bid for these are kind of artifacts that are going to help you. Um, and they're going to give you powers or abilities and things like that. And
10:54
in your hand, you've got these lovely, beautiful tarot size cards. And I have
11:00
to say, generically, like the the artwork in this game is is stunning. Uh,
11:07
Pablo is the artist as well. It was great at Prototype. And I can't imagine it's got worse since
11:13
Protoype. It's better. It's just everything is beautiful in this game. just the to look at it, the board itself, it's just
11:19
really pops. It's that cartoony like Studio Gibli style uh artwork, but it's
11:26
just ah just the detail and everything is is amazing. So yeah, if you you dig
11:31
all of that, you're going to get a lot of uh kind of enjoyment in playing it. But yeah, so you got these tarot size
11:36
cards and these cards have all got numbers on from zero to um 10 and you're
11:43
bidding with these cards at the start to to basically trying to win these artifacts. And there's part of the game
11:49
there going well I can put my highest card down and we all know that everyone's got their 10 at the start but
11:54
you're going to lose that in the actual meat of the game. So you're like well I don't want to put my highest one. I want to put maybe a semi highest one but it
12:02
depends on what you're after. So, and sometimes when you're putting your card down to bid, you don't have to then use
12:09
it to take a card. You might just do it just to, you know, throw people off the scent and all that kind of nonsense. But
12:15
you kind of do that draft and and then you you kind of go to the main section of the board where you've kind of got
12:21
three rows. The way to look at it, it's like three rows and two columns. It's got six areas and they've all got um
12:29
different things that will happen if you kind of wing control in those areas. And
12:34
so you're putting this uh kind of your your grand piece onto one of those locations. So again, in turn order and
12:43
so yeah, basically saying this is where I'm going for or maybe you're just bluffing to say this is where I'm going
12:48
for wink wink nudge nudge, but really I'm actually going for something else but no one kind of knows uh what's
12:54
happening. Um, so kind of as you do that, you're then putting these uh
12:59
supporters uh which is like a for for my faction I was playing was just a load of boats, but everyone there's little castles or boats or whatever and you
13:06
have I think you have about five or six in on your board and they're going to add like military strength to your your
13:12
clash um that you have on there. The beauty in this system is the last player
13:18
determines the clash order. Um whereas like you know you're trying to
13:24
put cards down then you have to put a card down in each row. Um and the order
13:31
that these clashes uh basically initiate is is so important because you might
13:36
have a card that you put down going actually when that that clash is activated I'm going to move that card to
13:41
another clash to bolster the strength for this other region to therefore actually win the one I want to. But that
13:47
only works if someone does the middle one first and the bottom one second and the top one third. Um, but it's a
13:54
beautiful thing that the last player gets that power cuz they really just screw everything up. And on these cards
14:00
as you're playing them down simultaneously, they've all got like powers and keywords. Now, the keywords aren't too mad. They're not too many
14:06
bones keyword levels, but there's a few things that you have to kind of take note with the suit of the card. Like
14:12
some cards are like assassin cards. they will literally annihilate every other person's cards unless they have um a
14:18
shield on. And if a shield on, usually they'll kill the assassin. Um and yeah,
14:24
all sorts of different things. Flanking, you can retreat cards from the board. You can um store them out um for another
14:30
round and save them. So, there's lots of little tactical options that you can play. And really, it's just whoever has
14:36
the most military strength on that road will win the clash. And then you get to um do the ability in the location that
14:42
you you're you're doing. A lot of them are going to give you influence, which is your victory points. And and if
14:49
you've got your kind of grand piece there, um you'll get extra influence as well. And if you've got other players
14:54
grand pieces there, you get to steal influences. So there's a lot of argy I'm gonna take this from you. And so it's a
15:01
very knobby game as well because it's like I'm gonna plan to do this and you're ah I've got this thing. I can look at the cards that you've placed
15:07
face down and haha, I'm not going to let you do that. So, there's a lot of this interaction uh over that kind of main
15:14
section of the game. Um, and then what's quite nice is
15:19
they've they've tightened up the uh the main I think summer is the the main kind
15:24
of season where things all this happens and now they have like a day and night cycle which is really just to help tell
15:30
you when powers are triggering. Right. Okay. So in the day powers trigger in turn order and at night after
15:37
the day stuff happens at night all the powers trigger simultaneously. So that's where then usually the knobbybiness
15:42
comes in and it it just makes it easier to determine when things are procking and when things are happening whereas
15:48
before it was a bit woo everything's happening at once is it oh what is that happened before you or
15:54
you know it gets a bit confusing now this has just simplified it and it's cleared everything up. Yeah, I remember
16:00
there being a lot of keywords and me having to figure out what was going on with those keywords. So, it sounds like they kept a lot of the keywords, but
16:06
they just made them made them time simpler or or sort of more easy to
16:11
understand. Yeah, definitely. Definitely. So, the timing of it, it's all kind of done. And then kind of when you've done all the
16:17
clashes, you go to autumn and then in autumn you can kind of spend um your cards uh in your hand to go on journeys
16:23
and then they will give you scrolls. And this is the cool bit where you can spend your scrolls to unlock cards in your
16:30
pile. So, it's a bit like um captain's chair in that you've kind of got these these cards with costs. Uh some of them
16:36
are more powerful versions that in your hand. Some of these are just like abilities that will will give you an ongoing benefit. Um and you can kind of
16:43
unlock those as you go. So, that's quite a nice little thing. And then the other side, you've got these gavvels on your
16:49
cards as well that you can then put them into the court at the top. And then uh
16:54
the core gives you all this kind of nonsensy core stuff which is like if you
17:00
win uh clashes with your your grand piece then you'll get extra um influence
17:06
if you discard cards from the core. You're going to get your supporters back from uh that are lost cuz this thing a
17:12
lot of the cards that you play that get killed or the supporters that you use um they go they get lost. They go into like
17:18
a graveyard but you can get them back if you're playing certain cards. And there's other effects that mitigates that as well. Um, so yeah, it it's it's
17:26
quite a fast-paced game. I think it took us a good couple of hours on our first proper play. That's just cuz we're
17:32
trying to figure out what's that do again? What's that key word again? What's that symbol mean? All of that
17:37
kind of stuff. But yeah, once you know, it's fast-paced and it's just it was just silly in the best way. Like I think
17:44
if you've got that gaming group that you don't mind a bit of knobbybiness around and you want to play a game that's
17:50
probably going to be 90 minutes once you know what you're doing, it's a bit quick, then I think you'll have a lot of
17:56
fun with it. But if you don't like that kind of style, stay away stay away from it because I don't think it's going to
18:02
offer you anything new in that regard where you think you're going to win, someone then shafts you and you're like,
18:09
"No." And it's just all of that. So yeah, but it's a good game. I enjoyed it. I'd like to play again.
18:15
We spoke the morning after you played it and you said it's just it was so much fun. Yeah. You could tell that you had a lot of fun
18:21
playing it. Um and like when I saw the the box art, I was actually there when Pablo gave us the copy
18:27
and I said, "Oh, the artwork on this is fantastic." And I think he thought I was kind of sucking up a little bit.
18:33
You were? I wasn't. Cuz I I've seen the box. I saw I'd seen people carrying the box and
18:40
remarking on the artwork then and saying he's wonderful and I didn't realize Pablo was
18:45
the the artist. I had no idea. I just said, "Oh, you know, the artwork in this is phenomenal." And he kind of looked at
18:50
him and said, "Thanks." And I was like, "No, it's you know, it's really cool." And he went, "Yeah, good. I I I did." I was like, "Oh, shit."
18:57
And then you and Davey kind of came in behind and he kind of realized that I was with you guys and he was like, "Oh, cool." So, um So, yeah. Yeah. But no, I
19:04
from the artwork alone, I was like, I'd love to give that a play. Yeah. So, in last episode, I talked about Quermaster General.
Adrian - Star Trek Ascendency
19:10
You did? And on the same day, I played Star Trek Ascendancy. Oh, you did? I was hoping you'll talk
19:16
about that. So, I thought, you know what? I'm going to just talk about Star Trek Ascendy cuz I'm not a big Treky nerd and it's not
19:25
normally my kind of game, so it'll be something a bit different. Yeah. And
19:31
I played the Klingons because it was one of the like the person who bought it had like all the expansion stuff.
19:38
All the races and they they named every like they were like which of these would you like? And I was like I know
19:44
the Federation Klingons and Vulcans.
19:50
I think that's it. I think that's all I know. Oh, Romulons there. Oh, I know Romulans. I think that was about So that
19:56
tells you sort of my level of if it wasn't in the first two or three seasons of NextGen, I probably probably didn't know it. So
20:03
um so yeah, so on I don't know how best to sort of start explaining this. I
20:08
suppose the the core thing is is that you start off with your little faction and what you're aiming for is to either
20:19
gain enough of these yellow I think they're called ascendancy tokens. I think you need five of them or something
20:25
like that. And you get that through culture. And there's a base way to get culture, which is every turn to gain it
20:31
through buildings that produce culture. Mhm. Or to take over two other people's home
20:36
planets. And when you first set up, it's basically put your put your home planet
20:43
roughly equidistance away from each other, and it should be roughly a number of inches, but it's not exact. It's
20:48
roughly a number of inches. Okay? So, you put your little planet down and you're sort of looking at it and you're
20:53
like, I wonder how this is going to form a board. On your turn, you can do a number of different actions. And there's two phases. One of which is I can't
21:01
think what the term is, but you get to build things mostly. So, you build your ships, you build your uh your various
21:08
bits and pieces. And then the next one is then you go out and do things using
21:14
um you've got like a I can't what they're called now, but they're like an activation token. And that depends upon
21:19
a number of things you've got on the board as to how many activation like actions that you have. And so you'll
21:25
then spend those to actually go out and explore. So to start with, you have very little in the way of of production as is
21:32
normal with these things. So you might produce a couple of ships or whatever. And then you'll get to the your sort of
21:37
base stage and it'll be like, "Right, okay. Now we're going to explore." And the first thing you do is on every
21:42
planet, it will tell you how many exploration routes you're allowed from that planet. So all of your starting
21:48
ones are four exploration points. So you can spend four ships to kind of create
21:54
these things. You'll be like, "Right, okay. I'm spending an activation to go and explore and you've got two moves of
21:59
exploration." You roll a dice and it will say two, three, or four on it. And that is how far the the exploration
22:05
required to find the next planet is. Okay. So let's say you roll a four. Mhm. You put a forward like a a thing that's
22:11
got four segments on. You'll move two segments onto that. Yeah. Well, you're now going to spend another activation to move the next two
22:16
segments, and then you'll have to spend another activation to go and find the planet at the end of that lane.
22:22
Yeah. So, really, what you want is three segments because that there's then two
22:27
activations to get to the end of it. And when you get there, the usual thing
22:32
off the top of the pile, you'll find a planet. You'll do what it says. Some have hazards, which will just destroy your ships when they enter it on a four
22:38
up or five up or whatever. But shields, you can build up your shields and your weapons and
22:45
that will help you. So, by the end of it, I had a load of shields and it meant that I could pretty much walk into most
22:51
hazardous regions and not care. You're fine. Um, but it'll then have other things on
22:57
it that will happen and some are anomalies. I think they're called anomalies in space and you can't the
23:02
first top lot of cards can't have anomalies in. You can only find planets.
23:08
But what you can have is hazards in those top five planets. You can have a planet with a hazard. And this was kind
23:13
of my first gripe because one of the players, all four first planets they found all had hazards. So every time
23:20
they sent a ship to go and explore beyond, they were rolling fours and fives pluses and just blowing up their
23:26
ships. So they were behind for ages. That's kind of my first little gripe of the of the game. But you'll randomly
23:31
find these and eventually these anomalies will start and come out. Now, the weird bit is you can kind of put
23:36
this this lane down however you want, and you can put the planet down however you want. The only time it sticks is
23:43
when you go to put a second warp lane down. So, once you've got that one planet, you can move it anywhere you
23:50
want around your planet. You can swing it around however you want to until someone's going to join
23:55
Yeah. or off of a second warp plane. Yeah. So, what tends to happen is, well,
24:02
I'll build this one out this way. Okay, put that down. Right now, I'm going to put a second warp plane. So, this is now
24:07
frozen. What I might do with that second war plane, though, is attach it to somebody else's and I can swing even
24:13
though it's their planet they discovered. I can swing it up to connect it up.
24:19
Interesting. And you end up with this weird like lattice of planets that make no sense.
24:25
And it looks phenomenal if I'm honest on the board because it's just all shooting off and you know you might find a planet
24:31
that's really cool and you want it as yours. So you kind of swing it off behind you
24:36
but then you have to build a second planet to go out to in order to hold it there. And it's not
24:41
good enough just to have a war plane because if you leave without discovering a planet that war plane goes
24:46
right. So you have to go and discover the second planet to then freeze that one in space to make sure no one else can sort
24:52
of swing. But you end up with this weird lattice over the game and it just grows in this
24:58
weirdly um sort of natural way like an organic process to build up this this
25:05
sort of set of of of well this sort of solar systemy sort of vibes
25:10
and it's that is the really cool part of the game that I've not seen anyone else do and I
25:16
really think that someone else should produce a more euroe game of this because it is such a unique ique way to
25:23
build up a sort of a universe. And because you've got these two lanes, three lanes, four lanes, it means that
25:30
some planets are closer together. Now, you do have the ability to warp. So, what warp does is you go into warp and
25:38
then each turn. So, when you go into warp, depending upon your faction and what technologies
25:43
technologies kind of as you expect you spend, you can have a look at them. you get a load of um
25:49
sort of in progress ones that you're allowed and on your construction turn on the starting half you can just put
25:55
resources into it but you can only put one per turn into it and then eventually it builds and that some of those will
26:00
say you get extra warp so you'll go into warp and I might have two natural warp if I then come out of warp I can do it
26:06
exactly on the same turn and I can move two planets away so instead of spending all those actions
26:11
going two by two by two by two along all these walkways I can just jump two planets straight away. I can also sit in
26:18
warp. So every whole turn, not just activation, every whole turn I sit in warp, I gain another warp counter. So I
26:26
can put a whole fleet in warp and then be like waiting, waiting. Now I can move
26:31
seven planets back. Then there's nothing you can do to stop it apart from the fact that ships block
26:38
ships. So it's kind of that tie up, that eclipse pinning. Yeah, that pinning sort of mechanic. And
26:45
once you've got a couple of ascendancy and you're allowed to start building fleets and fleets will build fleets and fleets are typically anything sort of
26:52
from a group of four to nine ships and if one side will have nine or 10 ships
26:57
cuz I was clinging on so I can have bigger fleets so I had 10 on mine I think it was or so everyone could you can always pick
27:03
that side of a fleet or on the other side it'll be like you can have six ships but all bombardments you reroll
27:09
ones and each faction has different of those that they can do so it tailors those fleets to do cool things and
27:16
fleets block fleets and ships block ships. But if you've only got a string of little ships, I can just jump all the
27:21
way through those and then get to where I want to and then do my bombardment or whatever. Yeah. And on each planet, you're going to
27:27
build up you're going to spend resources and build up things to then which will then increase your production or your
27:34
culture or your science and you're just going to kind of evolve that way. Okay. And I say the two ways to end are have
27:39
five ascendancy um points, which is five lots of five basically of these culture um production
27:47
pieces or go and invade two other people. Now I as Klingons, you're supposed to be knobbyby, right?
27:53
Yeah. Just did culture. So I stuck out in my own area of space, knobbed over one person a couple of times and just
27:59
built loads of culture. Um, so one of my abilities as Klingons is I always hit on
28:04
sixes, but also that if I destroy three ships at a time, I get one culture.
28:10
Yeah. So, it was useful for me to go and start little battles all over the place. Good day to die.
28:15
But it didn't really work out that way. I just hit two massive fleets into someone
28:21
and then got one culture cuz it's three or more. It's not per three, it's three or more. So, you kind of was picking up
28:26
little bits of culture there. Now, I did win, but it felt like a real downer at
28:31
the end because there was definitely a kingmaker section in that. So, Romulans
28:37
were had been picking on the USS Federation.
28:42
Yeah. Standard um for the whole game, right? And then it was either I would win or the
28:50
Federation would win. And the guy who was playing the Federation was giving the Romulan player a lift home at the
28:55
end of the g game. and had the chance to either continue
29:03
attacking the Federation or turn around and knobble me and I would have lost. Yeah. And they were like, "Well, that's what
29:08
I'm probably going to do." And I was like, "But whichever one you go after is going to lose."
29:14
Yeah. The other one is going to win. There's kind of no if buts or maybe about this. Was doing this, right? What's that?
29:19
The three player. I was playing We were playing five player. Oh, you're playing five player. Yeah. Oh, okay. But it was there was
29:24
three of us on one side of the board and the Romulum was between the Federation and the Klingons and he had the choice
29:30
of who to make kingmaker. The other two were kind of out of it at this point. One of the others was the one I'd been
29:35
all game and he was kind of down and the other one was the one that had five hazards planets, four of which were directly
29:41
connected to his home world who basically had spent the whole game just building up enough to have a fleet.
29:47
Right. And this is that was like where I felt really bad for that player. And yeah, the other one was like, "Oh, I'm
29:52
gonna" and of course I kind of got a bit like, "Why would you do that though because you've been beefing with the
29:58
Federation player?" Well, and I thought, "I think it's cuz he's giving him a lift home. I genuinely think so."
30:04
And in the end, I think he realized that either way he went was going to annoy someone, so he just didn't do anything.
30:11
Yeah. And that felt even worse if I'm honest. So I had been enjoying the game, but had
30:18
sort of thought this is a bit too luck based. And then when it came to that kingmaking thing, kingmaking is a real bug bear of mine.
30:24
Not great. And because the person clearly realized he was going to annoy one or the other of us, he just sat there him annoyed him
30:31
and annoyed himself clearly cuz he just did nothing instead on his last turn. Whereas he could have done something cool, but just didn't want to annoy.
30:38
So kind of left it. And I ended up winning because I could get more culture. Whoever had most most culture at the end
30:45
was sort of the tiebreaker. Yeah. So I had a lot of fun. There was a
30:50
little bit too much swinginess with the planets. I feel like there needs to be like an eclipseesque
30:55
rule where you can kind of go I don't want that one or I'll draw two. Yeah, I've had enough hazards.
31:00
I think for your first couple of planets you should be able to draw two and pick one or something like that just to kind
31:06
of give you the out. But it feels like there is a house rule in there to prevent that rather than a need. It's
31:13
not like it is inherent in the game, but I feel like there's a house rule there that would get that by.
31:18
Um, but then the king making at the end really sort of nah, I think if you're fine with that and like
31:24
I know um Inish is is famed for having king making in it and some people love
31:30
are fine with it. They're happy with that in there. But otherwise, I did have a good time. There was just those couple of niggly
31:35
points that thought I don't know how much I'd want to play it again. And I think that's all
Rob - Lisboa
31:40
we have time for on Let's Talk About Hex. No, it isn't. No, is it, Adrian?
31:46
Are we sure? We Yeah, we're sure because you're missing out, Rob. Fine. Rob, tell us what game you've played recently. Well, my I I've joined
31:54
the Lasserverse if that's a thing. It is a thing. Um, and we played Lisba.
32:01
Yeah. I only I I only stepped in on this because JP wanted three players. He had
32:07
to couldn't find a third and I was like I I've had a negative experience with
32:13
the Lerta game and that was with yourself Adrian and that's partly my fault because I confused Art Society
32:18
with the gallerist. Now I did not I did not get on well with the gallerist. I think that's fair to
32:24
say. Um I struggled with it and you stuck it through there. I stuck it through because I don't want
32:29
to be that that goes oh this is you know I'm quitting because I'm not enjoying it and the you know you
32:34
who else do we play with? you two and Davey and you guys were you guys were enjoying it and I enjoyed parts of it.
32:41
The artwork was fantastic and I like the premise of it. I just couldn't figure it out. So I I reluctantly joined this game of
32:48
Lassera and after the half an hour of well this also does this but we're
32:54
getting back to this in a minute because of the the amount of um steps that were involved and and kind of things leading
33:00
to other things and everything else. So it took a while. So, after about what half hour, 45 minutes of you explaining
33:06
what everything does and me not understanding any of it, I was like, "Screw it. Let's just play it." I I'm I
33:12
I like in the first game, I like just pulling levers um and seeing what happens. So, I'm not I wasn't that
33:18
fussed. Um and I loved it. I absolutely
33:24
loved it to the point where I was thinking about it all night. I was thinking about it the next day. Um, and
33:30
what I try to do when I play a new game is I try to just farm a resource that then allows me to do other things that
33:36
that that that's my kind of starting focus. And I don't know quite know how,
33:42
but I had a very good money generation. Had a lot of gold, didn't you? I had a hell of a lot of gold.
33:47
You ended getting a lot of cash and I got discount. So, I had a lot of gold and I had a lot of discount to the point where I got free buildings,
33:54
which I I don't know if I played it correctly. I don't I don't know. I'd like to say that I strategized for that,
34:00
but I didn't. That was pure pure luck. Um, and and yeah, and I I just loved it. And I was doing a bit of this and a bit
34:06
of that. And everything, you know, there's games where everything you do seems to lead to a good outcome,
34:11
but even even if you don't fully understand how and it was that and and I thoroughly
34:17
thoroughly enjoyed it. You built a good discount engine to the point where economy wasn't really a
34:23
problem for you. Yeah. which is always a nice place to be in Lisbbor or any Lerta game
34:28
because economy is everything. If you can get the right resources or the right sort of track going in a lassera game and then you're gang
34:35
busters and just away at the race. And I I loved it. Um I had a lot of help from you and Stu helped a lot as well with the iconography and kind of
34:41
what step leads to what? And he said you sure you want to do that because if you do this Yeah, it was a proper first game. We
34:47
were quite Yeah, I got a bit of help. You know, I quite openly admit that you know you guys were great with me. I did a step
34:53
and they were like, "Actually, you know what? If you did it another way." So, yeah. And which I I think if you're playing
34:58
I didn't get that. You know what you're doing. Yeah. You're good with the Galler. You
35:05
can play Lisbar. Um to the point where now I'm like I I I've I've kind of purposefully trying to play
35:12
heavier games. Yeah. It's it's been I've said before it's an interesting watch from an outsers's perspective to watch you go on
35:19
this little journey from dungeon crawling co-ops to now playing lardas and games out there.
35:26
Yeah. And and heavier games. And I think it's one of those when you realize you can do it even if you don't do it very
35:32
well. Yeah. Realizing you can cuz for me it was do I
35:37
take away from somebody? Do I sign up for a game that somebody else is desperate to play and I might not enjoy
35:43
it and I, you know, kind of not not ruin the experience but kind of lessen the experience somewhat. So, understanding
35:50
that I can play heavier games, I can play tricker, I can play um an acrony um
35:56
and and play these games and having a lot of fun learning them. Even if I'm not great at them, I'm still having a
36:02
really good time. But I thoroughly enjoyed Lisbbor. I thought it was fantastic. And I I I think I just saw you throw up in your mouth a little bit.
36:09
The eyes flashed. Yeah. But but no, I I thought it was brilliant. I love the artwork of it. I
36:15
loved I mean, if if a city ever is hit with an earthquake, then flooded, then
36:20
set on fire, that might be a sign from the gods to leave that alone and maybe not rebuild it. Um but I loved it. I
36:27
thought it was amazing to the point where I can't wait to play again. I thought it was absolutely fantastic. So, um, so yeah, for me, I'm part of the
36:34
Leraverse to the point where I've signed up to play weather machine. Yeah, baby. Yeah. Because I'm like, well, I I
36:40
enjoyed that. And well, I enjoy that one. And to be honest, it's kind of freed me up
36:46
like mentally to try new games and think actually, do you know what? If I don't like it, that's cool. It's not because I'm I can't get to grips with playing
36:54
it. It's just that game's not for me. And there's nothing wrong with that. Good man. Well done, mate. If you could
36:59
hear smiles on a podcast, you'd hear it now. And a frown.
37:04
Yeah, but you like frowning, so technically that's a smile. It's my default setting.
TURN 3 - Main Event: Variable Variabilities
37:11
[Music]
37:19
So onto our main section and we are going to talk about variables in board games. Variable variables in board
37:25
games. Anyone who plays a board game knows that there is some level of variability. Even chess has black goes
37:32
first, white goes first. That's always the common thing you hear is that's the level of variability in chess. And every
37:38
game goes from that to munchkin or flux or whatever overly variable variable
37:44
game you want to talk about where in there somewhere is some level of every
37:49
gamer has a level of variability they're willing to accept or types of variability they're willing to accept.
37:55
And I thought it'd be cool if we talked about a few of the types of variables that we have or how games become variable and which ones we're cool with
38:02
and which ones we're not. So,
38:07
I thought I'll kick it off and just talk about one of the things that I love as a
38:12
variability. It's one of those that I'm really accepting of, which is just a deck of cards that's random things in it
38:18
and you'll draw so many off the deck and get to pick one or whatever it is. Norm I normally I like it if you are allowed
38:25
to select from a handful off a deck or if you get enough cards like in terraforming Mars or um like Earth where
38:33
you just get so many cards that you then get to select what you want out of them. But that is a level of variability I am
38:38
really happy with and comfortable that I think that gives you options but
38:45
also means that it's not you know I'm going down you know food chain magnet-esque where it's like
38:52
well here's the predetermined route you're going down. No, that will make sure that you're you're not guaranteed the route you want.
38:57
Yeah. And I think that's a for me that is one of the things where if I see that in a game quite often I'm like well
39:03
that's probably an acceptable a thing that I'm going to enjoy inside the games.
39:10
My thing that I don't like is dice for the sake of dice. And quite often if I see dice in a board game I have to then
39:17
check out what those dice are used for. How they used how are they used? How often are they used? What are they used for? And that
39:24
is a nogo for me quite often. If I can't see a good reason that dice are in a game or there is just overuse on them,
39:32
then quite often I'm like, nah. So like um so like Lorenzo El Magnico has dice
39:38
in it. It does. But they're used for a specific p purpose and it's not just the best dice
39:43
roll wins sort of thing, you know? They're being used in it to create variability. Yeah. Yeah. The dice rolls affect
39:49
everybody. Yes. you roll we're all going to have a rough time. If we roll well,
39:54
we're all going to have a good time. I I thought White Castle. Yeah. I I think that's another great
39:59
example of you roll dice and it affects the board state, but it's not just five pluses win sort of thing.
40:06
Yeah. Which is my off-putting variability, which quite often is no for me. But yeah, you're right. White Castle is a
40:12
great example, isn't it? It's dice drafting and therefore, but it gives you options. It's not just,
40:17
well, you got last on the pick of drafting, so you're stuck with the crap. It's there's enough options there that
40:22
you're going to end up, you might not get what you want, but you might you'll probably do something with it regardless. Minos was very good at that
40:28
as well. See, that's one I really want to play. It's very I loved it. Yeah, it's good fun. But yeah, thoughts, feelings.
Asymmetry
40:36
Yeah. I mean, when you talk about variability in games, like what makes a
40:42
game exciting for me to return to? Yeah. as in I've played it twice and it's the same thing.
40:48
Yeah. For me, it's uh having different characters
40:54
or or you know player powers or play styles which forces me to do something
41:00
different. Asymmetry. Asymmetry basically. Um, and that can be in its minorest form to its complete
41:09
majorist form, which is full asymmetry, as in what I'm doing is completely unique to different to you, and that has
41:16
its pros and cons. Um, I like I like the fact that I've got a character. I've got a thing. It's got a power and that's
41:22
going to nudge me in a direction that either I'm comfortable with or maybe I'm not as comfortable with, but in a good
41:29
way because it makes me learn the game in a different way. Yeah. going, "Oh, it's a different strategy I didn't even know existed." And that's quite cool.
41:37
And you kind of get to kind of play in different lanes and different routes and that. I always enjoy games where they do
41:42
that cuz every time there's a game, usually it's a base game, they don't have that and then an expansion usually
41:49
adds it in. Yeah. And it's like, "Ooh, yeah. Power." That's why it buys all the expansion. That's usually why is cuz I I I like
41:56
that that variability in in how I start and what trajectory it's going to kind
42:01
of kick me into. Yeah, definitely. So, you are you comfortable with all all asymmetry or is there a is there a line
42:08
in the sand at which point you're like actually this is too much. I've been given too many
42:14
different things. So, I'm thinking of like Root. Yeah. for instance is Route is probably one of the most asymmetric games.
42:21
Yeah. Out there that's sort of in the sort of main populace of sort of board games and
42:28
that is I know that for some people that is quite off-putting that level of asymmetry. Are you comfortable with
42:34
that? I am comfortable with it or I am comfortable with the idea of it
42:39
but the practicalities of trying to teach a game like that is is and I've done I don't even know
42:46
how I've I've done this, but once I decided in my infancy, I used to have root.
42:51
Yep. I'm going to teach my family how to play root. Thinking it has to be all right.
42:58
I regretted it like instantly because like, you know, we had two vagabons, we
43:04
had the the cats, the birds, then the the woodland alliance. And the woodland alliance are probably one of the hardest
43:09
factions in the base game of Root, ignoring all of the others that are in the expansions.
43:14
And I remember right this is how your faction works now you're done everyone else is bored
43:21
right this is how your faction works and it's like god like over an hour now
43:26
everyone's bored why did I do this this is so yeah I think that that side of it is is off-putting for sure but I it
43:33
doesn't bother me but I think if everyone's putting equal weight into the to the learn and the education of it
43:39
fine um but those games rely upon usually a
43:44
similar group and playing that game a lot of times or with at least a similar level of experience. Correct. So that you get to understand
43:51
how the other faction works and and Cloud Spire is a great example of this, right? Cloud Spire is every faction is
43:58
is so different, so unique that I have to have an understanding how your faction works in order to play against
44:04
you, let alone what mine does and how I'm supposed to play it well. Um, but yeah, so it doesn't bother me.
44:10
I'm happy with it if I'm willing to invest the time into it and it's worth like the the juice is worth the squeeze
44:15
if that makes sense. So, uh yeah, but it can be a have to really think about it though. Have to go is it is it worth it?
44:23
Yeah, you're right. You do have to put that level of everyone around the table has
44:28
to put that level of effort in. Interestingly, with asymmetry, I quite like that level and I quite like no
44:35
asymmetry. Yeah. Everyone's on the same ke same play. Yeah. quite like
44:42
I quite like a certain amount of asymmetry like but there's this weird point where there's very minimal
44:48
asymmetry and that's the bit that usually annoys me that halfway house it's like we're throwing it in. Yeah. So it's normally like a tiny
44:55
little perk and because it's so tiny I can quite often see where one's overpowered or underpowered or I feel it
45:01
more. So like Perseverance was the example like episode one I think it is
45:06
where there's a tiny very small amount of it's the smallest amount of asymmetry
45:13
and I just kept going well yours is much better and yours is much better than than mine is and
45:18
and it's just like okay I I remember it with um I think it was Shackleton bass
45:23
where I just had the one person's ability like the base person's ability and I remember going hold on mine just
45:29
gives me a little leg up in one area. Yours gives you legs up in loads of areas. Why is that? And those are the
45:36
bits that normally get me. Whereas like by the time you've got to like tracion or anacrony or or something like that
45:41
where you've got quite a bit more variability in the game that point I'm normally happier. Yeah. With asymmetry cuz it's not that very
45:48
minor tweak where I can suddenly go hold on this feels I' like normally when it
45:54
gets to that higher point if it's that unbalanced it's really obvious to everyone. Mhm. And it it I don't know why, but you
46:01
kind of go, well, that's really unbalanced, that faction sort of thing. It's normally one of the factions. Whereas quite often I'll feel like two
46:08
or three of the factions are unbalanced if it's just the very smallest part of asymmetry. Mhm.
46:14
And I think one of the other things with asymmetry is it's almost mandatory in co-ops.
46:20
Yeah. Right. I mean, Rob, you play a load of co-ops of dungeon crawlers and all that kind of stuff. Like,
46:27
yeah. You want You kind of got to have it at that point, haven't you? It was kind of your classes, isn't it? Yeah. You know, you can't have a
46:34
ridiculously strong hand to hand wizard. No, you can if you spec down that tree.
46:41
Exactly. Yeah. You have to know what you're doing and build to it. So, for me, what I was going to mention was um I
46:47
like I like having a rough set of rules, if that makes sense.
46:53
because I know you're both smiling because I I don't really read rule books and stuff and I've always said like they're more like guidelines.
46:59
I like having a constraint that you can later push against. Do you see what I
47:05
mean? I I like having a starting bubble that you can then break out of. Mhm. So, with games, I I don't do very well
47:12
when I'm left to my own devices. Right. Okay. So, for me, I'm going to go the other way and start with the negative and and you've already
47:18
mentioned it, but perseverance for me, I just go round and round in circles,
47:24
kind of like I did with the gallerist. I didn't know. I think you should give it another shot though based on based on what you said
47:29
earlier. I think you should give another shot. But anyway, carry on. So, yeah, when when I kind of haven't
47:35
got that like TM for me is great because you you've kind of got a faction and
47:41
you've got some something to start with. you can branch out from that. Um, and
47:46
that is that replayability, you know, that variability as well is obviously you've got different factions, you've
47:51
got different companies, you've got different kind of starting areas, if that makes sense. And yeah, you can
47:57
branch out, you can kind of do whatever you want. Um, so yeah, that that kind of
48:03
not restriction, but like kind of bracketing in almost for me is is an
48:08
easy is a more accessible way to play games that have different starting points.
Narrative, Scenarios & Chance Cubes
48:13
Yeah. Um, and also if it's if it's a a storydriven game for
48:21
me something like Arkham Horror where the stories can completely change the
48:26
variability of those games. something like um you know we we had one where there was very little combat. We we were
48:32
investigating loads of things and then you had the flip side of that. We had trains being sucked off into the void
48:38
um where we had to run along carriages, right? We So so the train is being picked up
48:44
from the back. So cards are, you know, the map's getting smaller. Okay. So you have to kind of do what you need to do in a carriage then the next one
48:51
before that carriage is being you know sort of discarded into the void. So the game is the same. So, you've got
48:57
that restriction of the game. You know what the game is and you know what you're, you know, you know what you're doing, but it's the story that changes
49:03
how that game is played. And for me, I haven't come across a game that does it anywhere near as well as
49:09
what Arkham Horror does. The card game, you mean? Yes. Sorry. The the Oh, okay. Yeah. You know, the the the
49:16
different scenarios that they had made that game very feel very different every single time.
49:21
Yep. So, um, so yeah, for me, story and and not being left to your own devices.
49:29
Yeah, because you're talking there when you're talking about the, um, the sort of rules to break. I didn't know whether you were talking about when a game gives
49:36
you a set of rules and then says, "However, your character gets to do X instead sort of thing."
49:43
That I'm kind of okay with. Um, again, it's understanding the game as well. Yeah. like you know if you understand in
49:49
what way your character is different for the game then that's that's cool you can understand why
49:56
um so yeah for me it's that say that framework yes
50:01
almost has to be there for me to be able to understand and enjoy it like I say when I'm left to my own
50:07
devices I just go round and round I'm I'm like somebody in a canoe that's got one ore and is only paddling on one side
50:12
I'm just going round and round and round for 4 hours and like I enjoy it but it's just it's Not as fun.
50:19
It's fair enough. Um, the other thing for me is actually slightly different to yours in that I
50:24
actually quite like dice. Yeah. In games, but I like being able to manipulate.
50:29
Yes. Dice. Something like in Star Wars Outer Rim where you can um, you know, if
50:35
if you roll a five, you can negate two. So, you have to get three and above and things like that. Also, something like
50:40
dice forge where you can actually manipulate the dice. Yeah. um and kind of build it into what
50:47
kind of area you want. Yeah, I think that's absolutely fantastic and a way of completely keeping that
50:52
variability there in in the in the in the game. That's the game is similar, but actually what you do can can kind of
51:00
really add variety to to that game. Yeah. And I quite like Dice Forge as
51:05
well cuz it it it's not just about rolling the dice, is it? And that's kind of my point was I don't want dice where
51:11
it's just like, well, the best roll you get. And there is a best roll in dice forge because you could just roll the b
51:17
if you've kept the base sides on each dice. You could just end up rolling that repeatedly. But it's less so because you
51:22
get to build the dice in the way you want to go. So there's a bit more and there's choice. Say there's a bit more choice in that,
51:28
isn't there? Yeah. It's choice of in that one. Well, in order to put a dice face on, I've got to remove one. Now, which do I remove?
51:34
Yeah. Now, what do I not care about as much right now? Which could shaft me later, but cuz look and randomness kind of gets
51:42
interjected. So yeah, there's always a a decision on, well, actually, which of the two dice do I want to change? Cuz
51:47
that one's giving me this and I want to pair that one with this one. And when they start interacting with each other as well, which some faces do. There's
51:53
yeah, some little clever choices in there, you're trying to combo off a little bit. But yeah, Kabal does it very well as well. Kapow
52:00
does. You can build into your character as well as as well as the dice. So So yeah, that probably a better example
52:06
even of than dice forge. Yeah. And again with Kapow does that mitigation further, doesn't it? Because
52:12
no matter what you roll, there's an option there. It may not be the option you want. Whereas, if I roll three twos
52:18
and I need four pluses, there's nothing I'm doing with that. Like there's no Whereas
52:23
it does happen in Kapow, but for the most part, a roll of dice will probably give you some opportunity.
52:28
Mhm. Which I quite like. Um, so another trope I suppose of a lot of Euro games
Public & Private Goals
52:36
and one where I have a weirdly divisive line is in public goals.
52:41
So they're really commonly used for
52:46
but it is a variability right it's a cheap and easy way for lack of a better term of creating a level of variability
52:53
where you're like right at the start of the game you need you know first one to get to 20 blue things and 10 red things
52:59
and a green thing whatever there's your public goals or whatever it is will then give everyone a route to
53:06
head towards and I think that for me is Great. It can
53:12
go a bit wobbly with some asymmetric powers, but public objectives I think is fantastic.
53:18
Sometimes I do not like private objectives. I have to play something with private
53:24
objectives to see whether or not I think they're okay. And Midgame objectives. I'm looking at you, Nucleium. Have we,
53:31
as we've talked about it, I quite often struggle with them as well because I find often that because you replace them
53:37
so often Yeah. that they can really skew your asymmetry down one route and a game
53:43
becomes too variable in that respect. Yeah, that's where your choices get
53:49
taken away from you. Yeah. Because either other people have looked into those lanes other than you
53:55
trying to claw your way into it, you know. So, yeah, it can happen. Yeah, for sure. Contracts, I'm assuming
54:01
you're speaking about. Yes, in the in the on the nuclear front, but there are other games none come to mind whereimar
54:08
where it's like, okay, well, I get to keep grabbing these achievements or objectives that constantly change if
54:13
they're achievements. And you're like, well, it's just first, second, third. So, like even like Luther and stuff like that had a G had, you know, first,
54:20
second, third objectives at the top of them and stuff like that. And it's like, well, okay, well, I at the start of the game, I know what I need to do.
54:27
Yeah. And it won't be the same every game, but I know what I need to do. It's a public objective. That's an end game sort of
54:34
scoring normally or something like that. But it all it might give you something for being there first. But I know what those are. It's when it
54:41
changes constantly or sometimes when it's private and you just get to keep picking things up like almost ticket to
54:46
ride style, but it's not really like that doesn't bother me as much. But
54:52
ticket like ticket to ride style. Okay. Well, I get to pick them and I might just have something that immediately works for me in the state I'm in at the
54:58
moment. Um, like viticulture has contracts in it. It does. And that can be really frustrating when you've been
55:06
building a white wine engine and all you put is contracts for red wine and you're like, well, this is no good
55:11
for me. So, yeah. So, I really struggle sometimes with that line of of it. But
55:17
public objectives tends to be one that I'm just a-ok okay with across the board. They're inoffensive. Everyone sees them.
55:23
Everyone knows what they are. But they can also be a bit meh, can't they? Do you know what I mean? Like like you
55:29
said, the cheap and easy way of throwing some variability in there. It is, but I don't mind that.
55:34
Don't don't offend me. I don't like public contracts. No. No public objectives. I I don't like
55:40
the I like the private ones, right? Because there's there's not a race then. You do.
55:47
I don't like I have to do this to be able to with not even for me get the points for some to hinder somebody else
55:54
getting the points. I have to do this. Yeah. And for me, I I don't like that. I like having, oh, that works well for me.
56:01
I'll have that one. Or at least the private goals where people can't see what you're going for. Yeah.
56:06
For me, that's the only difference. And you're coming at this from somebody who strategizes with games and you kind of
56:13
have a plan. I typically don't. I'm like, cool, I'll see what happens. But
56:19
looking at the public goals and I'm like, I've got to do that if I want to get anywhere near that or at least stop somebody else from running
56:26
away with it. I have to feed into this where I don't particularly want to. And for me, I quite like having that
56:33
individually that individual goal. Yeah. As opposed to a public one. But again, that's just me because I'm not
56:39
I'm not trying to minmax games. I'm just trying to have a strategy, a kind of
56:45
rough strategy and see what happens. And to a point that's sort of been brought up in the last couple of episodes, interestingly, is with those public
56:51
goals, you do have to keep an eye on what other people are doing quite often. Yeah. Because if someone's well ahead of you on a public goal, there's no point
56:57
going for it or it's no point prioritizing it. So, you have to watch what other people are doing. In some games, that can be quite tough to kind
57:04
of see your some people just aren't naturally good at keeping an eye on other people's board states. I think that's me. I'm concentrating on
57:09
my own so much. I'm not even thinking about what somebody else is doing. But also I find with the public goals
57:15
there's a very clear at the beginning of the game there's a very clear way you have to go here or you have to get this
57:21
to be able to do this about midway when everybody's oh this ability allows me to do this and I get
57:27
this for free which gives me this for free and then by then I'm I'm lost I'm like yeah I'm gone I'm out
57:32
yeah I'm still doing I'm still doing what he did at the beginning of the game I'm going here that allows me to do this and somebody else says I'm going here
57:38
because that gives me this that also does this and then you know it's all kind of linking in for me. I'm like,
57:43
"Yeah, I'm lost." So, yeah. Yeah, it's a fair point. Absolutely.
Plug & Play Modules
57:49
One variability that I am enjoying, uh, it's probably more recently, but it's
57:55
been it's been around for for a while is it's kind of like plugandplay modularity. I was going to ask about this cuz
58:02
you've had a couple of games recently that Yeah, I mean, the the latest versions of this is Seti and Shackleton base. They
58:08
came out at Essen last year and they both have the similar this it's like a percentage of the the
58:15
system is completely modular and you can you know take bits away and plug the other bits in and it will twist the game
58:21
up and change it up. But even going back further um Glen Moore 2.
58:27
Yeah. Right. Glen Moore 2 is a very quaint tile laying game. um of Glenn Moore is
58:35
the sequel is is built upon it and even the base game of of Glen Moore. It's
58:40
great little game and plays fairly quickly and you have a great time resources and there's a little spatial
58:45
puzzle happy days. But in Glenmore 2, what attracted me to that game cuz I probably wouldn't have bothered was its
58:51
modularity. It's like, well, here's the base game and here's 10 maybe. Well, maybe I can't remember if it's that
58:57
many, but there's a lot of modules, but there's 10 modules that you can add to it. And you don't ever add all of them.
59:03
You only add one of them. And you kind of then starts to twist things around. I
59:08
enjoy that as a variety mechanism. You just think, you know what, I'm going to do dragon boat racing with this game.
59:15
Sure, why not? Or I'm going to add mobsters in, or I'm going to add this in and that. And I really like doing that,
59:21
which now tells me I should be playing Glenmore 2 more cuz I still have not played that game enough. You said it just then and I was like, we
59:28
should have a game. We should do a bloody Glenmore beast session where we play these bloody
59:34
modules cuz I really want to. Um, but with Glenmore, they are
59:39
optional modules, aren't they? It's a base game with optional modular expansions. You don't have to have them. Whereas
59:45
with Shackleton base and setting and like I'm thinking of last week of summer cuz that's the one I enjoy. It's
59:50
mandatory. You have to pick modules to go in that game. But those modules and sometimes it's
59:58
changes up how mean the game is or how nice the game is or how much of an engine builder it is. And sometimes
1:00:05
they're quite similarish just doing different things. Yes. Yes. And I think it's it's interesting that
1:00:11
we're getting a few more games now come through with that level of inbuilt required modularity.
1:00:18
See, for me, when I heard modular, I instantly went to Tavern. Yeah. Of tingle. And it's a way of adding
1:00:26
longevity to a game that probably has no right to be as good for that long. Do
1:00:32
you know what I mean? Like like you play with your family a lot, right? for you. It keeps it interesting for you
1:00:39
to want to play it so that when you when you like when your family want to play it, you're like, "Cool, but I'm going to
1:00:44
add this in as well because it keeps it interesting for me." Yeah. Therefore adding a lot of longevity to
1:00:50
that game that potentially wouldn't be there otherwise. And the only difference with taverns, I would say, is that it's layered
1:00:56
modularity. So the way that the modules are designed is that you can't cherry pick.
1:01:01
No. So it's like if you want this one, let's say it's module four, you have to have one, two, and three underneath it
1:01:07
cuz it's kind of underpinned the complexities but it's giving people that potentially
1:01:13
wouldn't have understood that from the beginning 100% a way of being able to learn that so
1:01:18
that they they can get to a higher level of understanding with that game where you're not bored to death of it by that
1:01:25
point. Yes. You see what I mean? So So it's kind of a win-win for everybody. you can get people up the complexity levels at a
1:01:33
comfortable pace that they're ready for rather than well there's only one way of playing this game and as with everything
1:01:38
in or it's just bass and and nothing else. But yeah, I do like the fact that it is layered so that if you want this you got
1:01:45
add the next and it's just a clear progression path of how you would build it up. But I do like
1:01:50
you know the smorggas board of there's a load of variety on the on the table and what do I want to play with today? I'll
1:01:56
play with that one. I'll plug that one in. I'll see what happens. I love that. I think with like the seti and the like
1:02:02
Shackleton base thing, I like it in principle. A bit like you were sort of saying
1:02:07
earlier, I like it in principle. I think it does the rootesque thing of
1:02:14
I think experience becomes quite a big part of that. Yeah. If someone's seen a module before, they
1:02:20
know how to game it what's going to what's needed in with
1:02:25
that com like with that module. even if it's not those combination of modules, they'll know what's required of it. So,
1:02:31
it does add loads of variability and loads of replayability. I think there is just that chance that
1:02:37
if I've only played the if I haven't played any and you've played all the modules or if I've played just the bass and
1:02:43
you've played all the modules and then you go to mix one in, you've immediately got a slightly upper hand. So, it kind
1:02:49
of does, which is always the way, you know, if I play 30 version 30 games of Camb and you've only played one, that's
1:02:55
going to happen. But I think those modular like uh what's the mandatory modular
1:03:02
options do exacerbate that a little bit do make it a bit more of a thing where
1:03:07
you you kind of I feel like you almost need to all know the expansion that you're playing or none of you know the
1:03:13
expansion like the modules you play to some extent. You're right. So, in in Seti, for those that haven't played it, the the game's
1:03:20
kind of set where in the base game you got five aliens um and you shuffle them and you draw two for the game face down.
1:03:28
So, you don't actually know which aliens are present until you've found them, found traces of them, which when you're
1:03:34
first playing it's quite exciting cuz what is it? And everyone's like what is it? And you flip it over and go, "Oh, what the hell?" And you read a card and
1:03:40
it goes, "This is what rules it injects into the game." And you go, "Ah, that's cool." And but you're all on the same level then. But you're right. If I've
1:03:47
played 20 games of SETI and you've played 20 games of SETI, but your mix of the draw meant you've only seen three of
1:03:54
those five aliens and I've seen all five, then yeah, of course, as soon as that flips, I know it's those.
1:03:59
I know exactly what I need to do. I know how to to game that more and you're like, what's what do they do
1:04:04
again? What? Yeah. See, it kind of puts players on a bit of an uneven uh kill there. Yeah, I did think of it like that
1:04:10
before. Yeah. Yeah. Just a just a again, I noticed it. I felt it more wish sort of shackleton base.
1:04:16
Yeah. Forms. But yeah, I think it's one of those where it's like it's it's great, but it
1:04:22
does have a slight slight downside. I feel it does. Yeah. I didn't think of that. One of the other things that and
Deck Construction
1:04:28
thankfully mostly I've played this in co-op where it doesn't matter so much, but it's very much the Magic the
1:04:35
Gathering thing that you see in some games like especially battlers particularly is when someone can
1:04:42
pre-build a deck. Yeah, again, in principle, I love it because
1:04:48
it should allow me endless variability of if I have, you know, this deck with the pyromancer, I get to put cool fire
1:04:55
spells and all that lot in, but eventually someone's going to math that out or they might have more options to
1:05:01
cards or there might be a new expansion out that I didn't know about and all those kind of things. It means that even
1:05:08
if we're all getting to build out of the same pool, experience ends up playing for me probably more of it than tactical
1:05:14
decision making because you're building it in at base level. Yeah. And so I love that idea of okay, well,
1:05:20
I'm going to build it or I'm going to get to customize my deck slightly in some way. Um, Imperial Settlers was the
1:05:26
one that kind of got me because I love the idea of, okay, so I've got 12 different
1:05:33
nations and I can choose any of those nations and they all have a starter deck. Well, that's great. I never wanted
1:05:38
to play outside the starter deck cuz even though I had 30 or 40 cards I could add in, I'd never got to a point where I
1:05:44
was playing against someone who would know what to build into that deck.
1:05:50
And therefore, I never use that level of variability in it. And I think that's a
1:05:56
it's a weird trap because it's a sounds like great variability and yet I've
1:06:01
never I think I've never used it apart from in co-op games where I get to you're all on the same side so if I pull
1:06:07
a bit more the way cuz I've built a better deck then so be it sort of thing. I'm so like I much prefer give me the
1:06:14
the deck of this character. Yeah. Or whatever it is and you build it as you go and build it as you go. Yeah.
1:06:20
I'd rather have the same start. That's what it is. So that's why I like the Imperium system, right? You get your
1:06:26
nation or you get your your your Star Trek captain or whatever. It's the same it's the same cards every time.
1:06:32
Yeah. So I know them. I don't have to kind of what are these? Well, how do these combo? I know what they do,
1:06:38
but the variability then comes in what I do with it. Yeah. That I love. And you get to see the person do it as
1:06:44
they go. Yeah. And you've normally you're like, normally you might you might have seen a
1:06:49
once through of their deck. So like Dominion's a great example for me personally, not for people anyone else
1:06:55
in the group cuz I think they've either played it and not loved it or not played it. I like Dominion, which is that you get to kind of see cuz
1:07:01
they're playing through their deck so often. You get to see what their deck is doing. Yes. It's the same with June Imperium to a lesser extent as well where you kind of
1:07:07
get to see what their deck is doing. You get to see they're building it. You're like, "Right, you're going down a worm a worm strategy.
1:07:13
A worm strategy. You're going around an attacking strategy." And I get to see you build it quite often with these other battlers. Either
1:07:20
Yeah. Yeah, you don't know what they're You don't know what they're doing or quite often it's if it's your first couple of games, someone will explain to
1:07:27
you what they've put in their deck and you they might as well talk to the wolf sort of thing cuz I have no idea what
1:07:33
Yeah. means you got to know the meta of of the card pool in general. Yeah. Which can be vast and expansive. But
1:07:41
yeah, I I just like give me the preset. So, even with Marvel Champions, I rarely rarely went off starter decks
1:07:50
unless they were really Oh. Um, and I did sometimes if I was playing the campaigns, I would cuz you ain't
1:07:56
getting anywhere off with half those campaigns. But, but then I would just net deck them or just go on the online list and go,
1:08:02
"Right, someone else figure this out. Give me the best thing that does what I want. Douche. Get
1:08:07
the list." So, for me, I don't do that deck construction. I just doesn't interest me. Um, it it the idea of it is
1:08:15
interesting, but when I sit there with the cards in front of me, I can't bothered. Just nah, no thank you. Just
1:08:22
give me give me my character and let me see what I can do with it. It also sort of tangents me on very
1:08:27
mildly to another annoyance of mine, which is when one faction has all the gotcha cards.
1:08:33
Yeah. Yeah. So, we're all playing the same game. all the other factions are doing like things
1:08:38
and they might have the odd Gotcha card and then one is just the knobbery the knob deck where they're like no no
1:08:44
no I'm taking this away and you're just like I'd rather not play with that faction in
1:08:50
it but that is that is a minor gripe but that quite often comes with that sort of deck buildingy different deck starts
1:08:57
for me it was um when a like what you were saying about that Magic the Gathering when almost it's nerfed by the
1:09:06
company. I'm thinking I'm thinking Warhammer 40k here. All right. So, regardless if you really like a
1:09:12
faction, if you're trying to be competitive with that, but the rule set has I'm thinking to for example, they
1:09:19
haven't got a good rep or they didn't they didn't in the last one. Model's cool as hell, but if you wanted to play
1:09:25
competitively, you couldn't. Yeah. And then it's like, oh, okay. So, that choice has been kind of taken away from
1:09:31
me. meta gaming um kind of mentality is fine if you want
1:09:37
to construct the best deck you possibly can or something like that. But when you haven't really got a chance of of even
1:09:45
having fun with a faction regardless if you want to play that faction or not then for me that that's kind of yeah
1:09:51
that's that's a real bug bear. Yeah. And it's I mean slight tangent on it. It's normally the ones that are
1:09:57
shouted about the most not the actual problem units that are nerfed. It's normally someone won a big tournament or
1:10:03
something like that. And you saw it with Netrunner and other LCGs as well of it
1:10:08
was ban that, ban this. Yeah. Oh, this one guy's really good with this one list and it's this one
1:10:15
card that's clearly doing it all. So, they would nerf that. But this card that everyone has in their decks that
1:10:21
probably also needs a like a point or you know, if you're doing this faction, it's a must include. Well, if it's a
1:10:26
must include, unless it's kind of part of their must-have faction or whatever,
1:10:32
then it's probably worth increasing its value or reducing its rule or doing something with it.
1:10:38
And they that tends to be a real problem of yeah, like LCGs or battler games or
1:10:44
something like that. Yeah, I have an I have another one. Um, for me it's
Character Builds
1:10:52
kind of character builds. Yeah. So, and I'm thinking Too Many Bones where you
1:10:57
can play a character one way, you can really speck into a specialty, but then
1:11:04
the next time you play it, you know, completely go right where you went left last time and and build it a
1:11:11
completely different way and see what comes out. Now what typically happens is with especially with characters if you
1:11:17
know that works then you you you'll end up kind of heading towards the same kind
1:11:23
of outcome. So sometimes it's having the opportunity you know having the opportunity and not the bravery but kind
1:11:30
of the willingness to try something different. Yeah, I think a lot of games add value. You know, there's a lot of variability in a lot of games, but nine
1:11:37
times out of 10, I know this works, so I'm going to head down that, you know, I'm going to head down that way and do that thing because I know it works.
1:11:44
I fall into that a lot. Yeah. Where sometimes I I like where you have a character that
1:11:50
you can just build a different way. Yeah. And I find that I'm less tempted by that
1:11:57
if I have to make that choice at character creation. So if we sort of think about too many
1:12:04
bones at the start of the game, you got to put a dice in a slot or do a something or whatever. You got two choices really to produce.
1:12:10
Sometimes you can just push yourself, can't you? In a direction you wouldn't normally go at creation. It's why I quite like Marvel Champions and stuff
1:12:16
like that is because if I'm like, well, I normally go leadership with Cap, but maybe I'll go
1:12:22
protection this time or something like that. You are forced then to play it that way and you can make that decision
1:12:28
before the heat of battle for lack of a better term cuz you're right quite a lot of those tech trees you're like well I know
1:12:34
this works and if I've got the opportunity well I might as well take it sort of thing but if it's baked in or you have
1:12:40
to make a small choice as to what you're doing before the battle commences before
1:12:46
like in setup I tend to find that alleviates that and does mean that I
1:12:52
then use that variability rather than just being like you know tracerons I think actually a
1:12:57
great example of you can just go down the route that you know yes
1:13:02
quite happily but also if you pick the assistant that you don't normally pick
1:13:09
you can then be like oh I'm going to try something else you can just go I'll go down that line or quite often even
1:13:15
regardless of the assistant you pick quite often you're like well I'm going to head roughly in that direction y exactly and given a call back to you
1:13:23
had perseverance episode one where you have he's going to defend it. No, no, no. Cuz it it's I kind of agree
1:13:29
on episode one where you got your little powers. Each character's got their powers. Um in episode two where this completely
1:13:36
switches it up and each character has 30 perks. They're all the same across all all four characters. The differences is
1:13:43
how you start and where you start on that tree, should we say. Um which is the variability in the game anyway. So
1:13:49
sometimes you might start on the the second column in and sometimes it might be the fourth, it might be the third. It
1:13:54
just depends. So it's always different. But again, that's a build system because you're building your perks up through
1:14:00
the game as as you go and and that just means you can craft the the variability
1:14:07
that you want to do in that game and spec it to what you need. And that's always fun. So, it's that it's similar
1:14:13
to Too Many Bones and trying to spec this to win or give me the engine or give me the the the goodies, should we
1:14:20
say, to to get to where I'm trying to get to. But yeah, so in that episode for sure, I think that really works well
1:14:27
because you're all on the same playing field really. You might have a small, you know, footstep on something
1:14:33
different, but it doesn't mean you have to go all the way. You can still go, you know what, I'm going to take some of them from column A, some from column B
1:14:39
and see what happens. But yeah, I do enjoy that one. So that was just our bimble through what
1:14:45
variable stuff we like or don't like or you know what's out there. It was never supposed to be an exhaustive list. I
1:14:51
just wanted to sort of shoot the breeze on what do we like, what do we not like, what do we look for
1:14:57
that kind of stuff. I think what's really nice is when you don't expect to like it, you know, you don't expect to like,
1:15:04
you know, a variability aspect and it and it just works in a game or or or a particular mood that you're in and
1:15:10
you're like, "Oh, that that really makes it you should not like this, but I do. I don't know why, but I do." I think that's when it really hits.
1:15:16
You're like, "Ah, cool. All right." Yeah. I absolutely agree. I think, you know, we've we've talked about a few of
1:15:22
those games sort of more recently as well where you're like, well, I wasn't expecting to like this because it's got the wrong kind of variability.
1:15:28
Yeah. For me, but actually it's worked, you know. So, it's nice to see when that does happen and someone
1:15:35
breaks your expectation. There we go. Is there anything we've missed? Is there anything people wanted to talk about? Please drop us the socials or join our
1:15:43
Discord channel. Join the Discord. Plug plug and let us know there. Um, we always put
1:15:48
up our episode there and you can just add a thread with your comments on there or we always put it on socials and you can do exactly the same there. But I've
1:15:55
enjoyed just chatting about what we do and don't like in board games. Always a bit of a laugh. On to
1:16:02
the next section.
TURN 4 - Connect Four
1:16:13
Onto our next section which we have now dubbed connect for. Is that what we're going with? Why not? Let's go with it. I'm pretty sure that's trademark. So,
1:16:20
no, it's with a K. Oh, cool. Connect for with a K. Oh, yeah. You have to put that in the show notes
1:16:26
like that now. Lying. It's not. So, as you can hear, I'm shuffly
1:16:32
shuffling a real deck of cards as shuffling. And what I'm going to do is put four
1:16:37
cards out on the table. Okay. And we're basically going to come up with some games that connect the four
1:16:43
words or the four things as best as possible. But if it only connects two, that's fine. If it only connects three,
1:16:48
that's fine. If you can connect all four, great. Golden. And you're going to do a sales pitch of
1:16:53
that game. Oh god. Right. Okay. Okay. Of of what matches up. And again,
1:16:58
you can have more than one. So, or you can have none. So, if you can't think of anything, it is what it is. It is what it is. But we're going to put
1:17:04
those four cards out there. I'll read them out. The chances of getting all four of these is quite tough. Now, so
1:17:10
the four we have are sci-fi, action chaining, miniatures, and
1:17:15
meeples. So, try and think of games that have got at least two of those things together.
1:17:20
Sci-fi, action, meuples, or miniatures. Yeah, I can definitely get three. Just
1:17:27
go on then, JP. Three would be voidful. Right. Okay.
1:17:32
Um, so sci-fi, action chaining, yes.
1:17:37
Uh, miniatures if you have the galactic box. Yeah, miniatures. But not meeples. Not meeples. If we're going to be strict
1:17:44
about the word meeple and what it means then no meeples in there. So three. They're the ones that just
1:17:52
flew together for sure. Trying to think of all four though. Trying to see if there's something that has like
1:17:58
miniatures or meeples. Great wall did. Yeah. But that's not sci-fi. And it doesn't
1:18:04
really have action chaining. It has a little bit, but it's not what I would call action chaining. The one I first
1:18:09
thought of straight away was great uh was Great Wall was White Castle cuz White Castle does have some action
1:18:16
chaining in it. It does. Um where oh, I get to do this. Oh, I've triggered my lantern thing, which means
1:18:22
I've got that. And of course, that famously has a bunch of meeples in it. So many that they nearly didn't fit in the box. Would you class the bridge being a
1:18:29
miniature? Oh, I think that's a push. I think that cardboard bridge. You're
1:18:34
gonna you're gonna annoy me like Becky did last episode where she was like, I'm gonna make it work. Just flick flea. Flick flea m
1:18:43
and me just going stop getting Bond roll. Yeah, stop it. That's an Alan Partridge if you if
1:18:49
you're not aware. I know exactly what that is. The other thing that came in my mind was Frost Punk. It's not sci-fi. So Frost Punk had
1:18:55
a miniatures or meeples options. I actually weirdly prefer playing with the meeples in Frost Punk.
1:19:02
Um because I think they just look cuter in a game that's all about survival and death. Um
1:19:07
these are cute. Sometimes playing with them the mele side of life is it's just good. Yeah, it
1:19:12
I think it's easier when you have to sacrifice the children when they're meeples whereas whereas normally like that'd be
1:19:19
really a harrowing choice. When it's a miniature you don't have to show it's like I think it's all right. It was just weird to see you saying
1:19:25
sacrifice the children while you're smiling. If you've played Frost Punk, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about.
1:19:31
I've played it. It's Oh, it's awful. It's a game of crap choices. And
1:19:36
it's getting when they're repeatedly simulator. That's all it is. When they're mele children, it's fine.
1:19:42
But when they're miniature children, they look too realistic. They look too realistic. I can't really I can't look them in the eye. I think
1:19:48
I've got one that does all four. Uh, what? Go on.
1:19:53
Scythe. Sci-fi is a push in it. It's got mechs.
1:19:59
Yeah. Yeah. Is it more steampunk? It's a difficult one cuz it's kind of set in 1920, but it's an alternate 1920
1:20:06
plus. So, have we signed What's that thing in the middle? Oh, what the factory? Yeah. Yeah.
1:20:12
Does it have miniatures? And so, does it have meeples? Yep. Yeah, cuz the workers are meeples.
1:20:18
Oh, okay. And it has miniatures cuz the I know the I saw the miniatures cuz the mech thing. Now, action chaining. Does it have action chaining?
1:20:26
Yeah, cuz you do a top action and a bottom action. And that That's not action chaining. That is I pick one action that leads to
1:20:33
another action. Yeah. I can't remember. Right. That's not what
1:20:38
it's it's the world's smallest chain. So, we've got somewhere between two and four depending upon how much you're
1:20:43
willing to sci-fi on it because I think when you look at when you go to the factory and some of the tech and things that you're
1:20:49
getting, it is very sci-fiesque to it. It's it's kind of steampunky, but it is I', you know, and
1:20:56
if you played the rise of Fenrris, which is the only version I've played, which is true actually, then I'd give
1:21:02
them the sci-fi and that miniatures and meuples. So, there's definitely three action chaining. No, I don't think so. I
1:21:08
don't think so. See, I don't naturally go towards sci-fi
1:21:14
themes. So, I'm trying to think through my board game collection. I think there's only two games in the whole thing that were actually sci like really
1:21:21
actual like in space sort of sci-fi or or other other bits and pieces. Uh June
1:21:28
has three. June Imperium. June has meeples. Yeah, it's sci-fi
1:21:35
and it has miniatures if you buy the miniatures version. Yeah, it definitely is sci-fi. And does it
1:21:41
have action chaining? [Music]
1:21:46
You do get some of the stuff with the signate ring can allow you to then do funky things, but I don't know if it's
1:21:52
action chaining as such. Might be loose. Might be three and a half.
1:21:57
Nice. I think I think there are some times where you can combo a little bit, but it's not often.
1:22:04
No. No. But yeah, it's a tough one to get all four of those. Yeah. Soon as Mches and Meeples came
1:22:09
out, I thought actually that's quite tough. Well, that's a fun game. There you go. I'm quite enjoying it. We'll see what we'll see how this keeps
1:22:14
going. But if you've managed to match up all four cuz I'm convinced whenever I do this, I'm convinced there must be one
1:22:20
out there. There's got to be. So, if you have managed to connect all of those four words into a game, please do let us
1:22:25
know because I'm I'm always interested to see what's out there that I've not thought of. Yeah, definitely. Thanks, Adrian.
1:22:31
Brill. So, that's our that's our newest section
TURN 5 - Penultimate Turn: What's Coming Up?
1:22:37
[Music] onto our penultimate turn where we get
1:22:45
to talk about what we're all looking forward to. What are we looking forward
1:22:51
to next, Rob? For me, I've got two games of Gloom of Killilforth coming up this week.
1:22:57
Nice. Potentially three if I play it Monday as well. He's going to do it. I probably will. Uh
1:23:04
I got out last weekend uh to have a solo run through of it. And I forgot just how
1:23:10
much I enjoy that game. I think it's a well-known thing that I like dungeon
1:23:15
crawlers. and shock. You should have mentioned it before. To have a dungeon crawler as deep as
1:23:22
what Gloom of Killfor is without having hundreds of miniatures is awesome.
1:23:28
It whenever So, we've seen it a few times now at the expo, like his series
1:23:33
of games, that studio series. Yeah. All or nothing. Yeah, we have seen that out a few times and
1:23:40
every time it's out I think it looks quite dry because it's just art on
1:23:47
cards. But also I think it looks compact and I think if you get past that initial
1:23:54
cuz when you go to these expos it's all miniatures and and I think to myself no it looks a bit not basic but I can't
1:24:00
think what the term is. It looks a little bit paired back simplistic almost. Yeah, but I think
1:24:06
it's great that it's such a compact and lacking faf. The world building in it is fantastic.
1:24:12
The artwork is incredible and the the just the playability of it is it's
1:24:18
once you understand the process and the steps involved. It's it's just great. And the the the
1:24:25
variability in it, which is quite fitting for this episode, um you know, classes, races, villains, um it it's
1:24:32
just great. and you got a quest to do. So, there's kind of a story to progress. Yeah. But it's not in-depth. It's not pages of
1:24:40
text. It's a card, you know, with a paragraph of, you know, you've freed these people. Um, now you're being
1:24:46
chased. So, you have to go and do a thing to to, you know, stop the people from getting to the people you've just
1:24:53
freed in in real basic terms. And it's really accessible. And, um, I I've only
1:24:58
played the gloom of Killforth. So, you need to get the others. need to get the ninja one or the pirate one.
1:25:04
The pirate one really intrigues me now. Mark Monk tagged me in a tagged me in a status today about it.
1:25:10
Um it does really intrigue me. Um to be honest, the the um Killfor Manor.
1:25:15
Yeah, that really intrigues me. That that's got a real Arkham Horror zoomed in aspect
1:25:21
vibe to it from what I understand in seeing it laid out on a table expo. Yeah. Nothing more than that. um you
1:25:28
know that kind of that exploration around a building um as opposed to a world um really really kind of you know
1:25:36
interests me. So I think that will probably be my next one in all honesty. It is a set that I keep looking at and
1:25:42
kind of going I would like to try it. It there's something to it that I would like to give it a go at some point but
1:25:49
yeah I think co-op's definitely the way forward with that game. Yes. Rather than the not not competitive but
1:25:54
the kind of race version Yeah. of it. So, um, so yeah, I've got a game on Tuesday with another person and I've
1:26:01
got a game on Friday with two other people. Nice. So, and it's going to be how that scales up. Um, so, so yeah. So, for me, uh,
1:26:08
Gloom Killfor this week. Cool. JP, I'm having just sent some money, um, for
1:26:17
the English Channel Crossing recently. Um, basically the the road to Essen is
1:26:24
is looming. It's beckoning. It's It's coming. So, yeah, I'm Essen, I think, is is what I'm looking forward to. Um,
1:26:32
doing the most research I've ever done at previous essence. You've changed.
1:26:38
I know. I think Essen number one was turn up, see what happens. Essence number two was, oh I should start
1:26:44
looking at some games cuz Essen's coming up soon. Um, and then getting there going should have done more of this.
1:26:51
Doing Adrian levels of preparation. Um, now this is the third year and I'm, you
1:26:58
know, I have a list. Finally caught up. Finally caught up. I have a list. I've been reaching out to publishers, saying
1:27:04
hi, you know, getting meetings set up some press meetings and things like that, which has been really cool.
1:27:09
It was a thing we came away last year and said we need to do more of that future essence.
1:27:14
Got to get in early and and just, you know, cuz certain games I've got my eyes on. Um, and yeah, just I want to just
1:27:22
get a bit more prepared and and this year I'm demoing at Mine Clash again. Yeah.
1:27:27
Uh, changing it slightly where I'm going to do most of my demo hours on the Saturday. So, if you're there on a
1:27:33
Saturday, essence, come and say hi. I will be there demoing Voidfall expansion and Tracarion, I believe,
1:27:40
which hopefully will free you up because I know you enjoyed doing the demoing, but it was always sort of here's the morning done. I've got to do the morning
1:27:47
and then I've got my afternoon. And by that time, even even with a gamk, we were kind of done quite often.
1:27:53
Even Davey was sort of quite often looking a bit like, yeah, I'm losing steam here. So, you joined us
1:27:59
as we had already done a load of exploration. So, hopefully that Yeah, I learned a lot last year. Just I
1:28:05
thought I'll try and compact it to Saturday. Saturday is always the busiest day. Yeah. Um and and if you're there
1:28:10
Thursday, Friday, and Sunday, you're going to get to see pretty much what you want to see anyway. So, I thought I
1:28:15
don't mind giving up my Saturday cuz I really do enjoy demo. I I loved it last year and I'm really like stoked for this
1:28:22
year to get on Void Falls expansion cuz I did Ironwood last year which is fine but when I've been doing 12 14 games of
1:28:30
Ironwood which is a smaller game it's just like it and you have to do two games at once.
1:28:35
had to marshall two games at the same time, which was a lot cuz you get bombarded by questions. Where a void
1:28:41
fall, um I can sit down at one table, I've got two hours, it's four players,
1:28:47
and they've got my attention. Yeah. And that I'm no problem with. And uh
1:28:52
secretly, not secretly, uh equally, I'm just looking forward to seeing what that expansion offers if I'm being honest. So
1:28:58
that that's an exciting thing. Um so yeah, I just think I'm looking forward to getting back out there. I'm hoping
1:29:03
the Twisty Potatoes are back. Uh I'll let you know because that was a bit of a disappointment disappointment last year.
1:29:10
No Twisty Potatoes. Um so hopefully they'll be back and yeah, I'm I'm seeing what it's all
1:29:17
about. But we're going with Mark Monk as you said, Ninja Geek Games. He's he's coming along with us uh this year. So
1:29:23
that'd be good. And you can expect uh him on our SND brief. He's going to join
1:29:29
us. Nice. Spoiler. Uh so yeah, he's going to jump on the episode with us and uh give us
1:29:34
the lowdown of his experience as well. So that should be fun. Two things. Firstly, really getting FOMO
1:29:41
for Essen. I know it's going to be weird you not being there, mate. So I'm going to miss you in the shower. That's going to sound really, really
1:29:47
odd. It's going to sound really odd, but when you share a room with Adrian, you'll realize he is at his happiest
1:29:52
moment when he's in that shower early in the morning cuz he's up early and he's singing and he's like, "Who is this guy
1:29:59
in the shower?" And I'm going to miss it. the same and then I have to meet people in the world and all the happiness goes
1:30:06
out of it. Um that's a deeper insight into my life
1:30:12
than I was expecting on this podcast. Love it. Um but yeah, I think it's already signed
1:30:18
off that I need to go next year. Yeah, if people are going to go then. So yeah, if people are going next year,
1:30:24
I think I'm already now signed up for next year cuz I was We talked about it before. It's a money
1:30:29
thing. That's what your decision is with Essen. And it's not getting cheaper, is it?
1:30:34
No. And well, you've had to move further out in order to in order to do it. And that was also a
1:30:40
big like I don't want to have to do that. So, but either way, I think that's pretty much signed me up for next year because I didn't expect to get FOMO for
1:30:47
convention that I'm not, you know, I never get FOMO for Gen Con, for instance. I'd like to go to Gen Con,
1:30:52
but doesn't ever give me FOMO even though I know what games are coming out. I know what games are coming out or most of the what games are coming out Essen
1:30:59
and yet now I have FOMO. So first things first is that. Second of all, Watford
1:31:05
charged me £14 for six churros and they were nowhere near as good as the Essen
1:31:12
churros. And we've kind of made churros a bit of a thing cuz we always do it at UK.
1:31:18
Yeah. GE. Yeah. Or try to try to. We failed like this year, but
1:31:23
it's usually a thing. Yeah. And I've had churros at every essence now as well. So
1:31:29
when I got to Watford and smelt the churros, I was like, "Oh, let's go for it." And I was like, "How much?" It wasn't even that much at essive audience
1:31:36
that is. So yeah, get some. If they haven't got spiralized potatoes, I think churros are going to probably need to be
1:31:42
on the backup. So what about you Adrian? What are you looking forward to? I haven't played many Euro games
1:31:47
recently. What this? Yeah. So, apart from the Pandemic Legacy, which is kind of Eurogame
1:31:54
adjacent, um I don't think I've actually played
1:31:59
any Euro games in over a month. I can think of a cuddle or something.
1:32:05
You're right. They've all been war games or miniature games or like Apex Legends and stuff
1:32:11
like that. And I'm quite I've quite enjoyed the break from cubes beige cubes. Um, but I feel like it's
1:32:20
time that I got back on I was still I'm missing it now. I was enjoying the break and I still am looking forward to like
1:32:26
Apex and a few other bits and pieces, but I feel like I need some beige back in my life cuz I've I've been lacking.
1:32:33
It's been full of color and I don't like it. So, it's like re-watching Friends again, doesn't it? You know, it's that comfort
1:32:39
and security. Just go back to sepia. Yeah. Yeah, that's it. So, I talked about it
1:32:45
last time, but Hamburg is still really right top of my mustplay. Yeah.
1:32:51
Really looking forward to a game of Hamburg because I've not played it and it's Stephen Feld and I feel like it
1:32:57
should be there. So, that's really top of my to play list. And then I'm going to butcher the pronunciation of this,
1:33:04
but I know Mark is looking from Ninja Geek Games. I don't know if we've mentioned that Mark is from Ninja Games. That's his third bloody mention. Um, he
1:33:11
has managed to get hold of Tiangia. Yeah. It's the one with an X in it. It's a game.
1:33:16
It's a tea game and they're all unpronouncable pretty much. I feel like they do it on purpose now. Absolutely.
1:33:22
So, um, it's one that I caught I had my eye on for a little while before as it was sort of coming up cuz thought that
1:33:28
looks like it's doing something different. And hopefully, and this is a little way off, but hopefully I'm demoing it for Grid Con.
1:33:34
Nice. Yeah. And it I thought it'd be good to get at least one or two games of it in because I always if I'm demoing a
1:33:40
game, I do like to have had a a full playthrough of it because you get to debug
1:33:46
anything with your sort of your spiel and and sort of how you run a game. So that is also on the sort of medium
1:33:53
horizon, but it's giving me that I'm going to get some beige euroiness back in my life
1:33:59
again. So I've enjoyed my break from it and I will I think enjoy a bit more of a balance. I think it's that that
1:34:06
evolution of gaming taste is I want a bit more balance. I've I've gone from no euro to full euro and now I feel like I
1:34:13
need to go back to having a mix of 50 merit trash euro scale. So, but yes,
1:34:21
I'm now looking forward cuz I've gone I've gone cold potatoes, whatever the term is.
1:34:26
Started shaking and sweating. Yeah. For I've gone I've gone cold turkey is the correct term.
1:34:32
Like cold potatoes. cold potatoes. I prefer the cold potato. I couldn't think of the food type that
1:34:37
was I like both of them things cold. Ironically, they're both fine. So, yeah. So, looking forward to those
1:34:43
two. Well, that's me done for my third episode in my little run. So, handing over to Becky next, who's got an
TURN 6 - The Final Turn
1:34:50
exciting three episodes um that if you're a coffee supporter, you could have voted on.
1:34:56
Yeah. So, nice little segue to we've got coffee and we've now got Discord. Please
1:35:01
join that. And as always, we have our socials. So now you've got multiple ways
1:35:07
to kind of say hello, get involved, um, and make help make decisions and sort of
1:35:13
have your voice said a little bit on the podcast and what we could do next, as well as supporting us in getting better
1:35:19
stuff and just paying for some of the overheads that are natural with a podcast. So, thank you very much for our
1:35:25
coffee supporters. Thank you very much for those who have joined our Discord. And thank you very much if you are one of those that like to have the odd word
1:35:32
on social media. Thank you very much for listening and until next time. Whose turn is it anyway?
1:35:39
Becky's turn. Becky's turn. [Music]