The Resilience of Egypt: How Tourism Shaped Its Recovery and Empowered Women

Welcome back, intrepid travelers! On today's episode of The Intrepid Traveler, we embark on a captivating journey to the land of pharaohs and pyramids: Egypt. Join our knowledgeable host, Robin Cline, as she delves into the historical and political volatility of this captivating country, where presidents rise and fall amidst the backdrop of mystery and myth.

Our special guest, Ashish Sanghrajka from Big Five Tours and Expeditions, shares his insights on Egypt's transformation from a tourist-centric destination to a place that has faced security threats and incidents targeting visitors. Despite the challenges, tourism remains a fundamental part of Egypt's identity and recovery. 

Robin's personal connection to Egypt takes us beyond the surface of popular attractions and into the heart of this mesmerizing land. From witnessing the Arab Spring to the emotional conversations with local residents, she uncovers the layers of Egypt's modern civilization and the importance of critical thinking during times of change.

Prepare to be dazzled as we explore the Nile in search of Nubian villages, marvel at the architectural wonders of Luxor and Aswan, and uncover the mysteries of the pyramids. Robin's wealth of experience and passion for authenticity shines through as she guides us through the hidden gems of Egypt's culture and history.

So sit back, relax, and open your mind to the allure of Egypt on this captivating episode of The Intrepid Traveler. Let's embark on an adventure together, fueled by curiosity and a yearning for exploration. Don't forget to subscribe to the podcast and join our sponsor, Klein and Co Travel Consulting, in creating tailor-made travel experiences that will leave you with lasting memories. Let's dive into the enchanting world of Egypt, where history and myth intertwine, on this episode of The Intrepid Traveler!

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Ashish Sanghrajka - CEO of Big Five

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Transcript

Have you ever wondered how the pros put together? Epic Taylor made travel adventures. Welcome to the Intrepid traveler podcast. I'm your host Robin Cline and I'm going to explain to you just how that is done during my conversation with today's. Envision yourself driving through the Tuscan countryside in a Ferrari sipping champagne on a remote island in the Indian ocean camel treking in Kenya lounging in a luxury eco lodge in south America, or seeing the Southern cross from a dark sky reserve in Australia.

When it comes to luxury, adventure and expedition travel, the possibilities are endless. And in each episode, you'll hear from an expert in his or her field about how these experiences and more are created. This episode of the Intrepid traveler is brought to you by client and co travel consulting, a luxury adventure, and expedition travel planning company, specializing in UN Googleable experiences.

You can find us on the web at client and co travel dot. That's Cline with a C C L I N E on Instagram at Cline and co travel. We have a private Facebook group. You're welcome to join. Or you can find us on LinkedIn or catch the video version on YouTube with that said, let's welcome our guests to today's show.

We. Hello, welcome to another episode of the Intrepid traveler. I'm your host, Robin Klein and glad today to again, have my friend Ashish Andraka back with me from big five tours and expeditions. Welcome Ashish. Thanks. Good to see you again, Robin. Ah, thank you. Thank you. So some of you may have listened to episode four where Ashish and I talked about Columbia and I would urge you to go back and listen to that.

If you haven't already just to get a little more history on Ashish, because today we're gonna actually ask about the history of the company itself, how it was. Born, so to speak. And then we're gonna launch into the destination we're featuring today. That's right. Yeah. Yeah, that was, I wish I had a cool story for how the company was born.

Okay. I wish I had one and, and I actually did have one that I believed to be true. Until I was about 15 years old and I realized that it was, I was lied to . Oh, no, like Santa Claus, like you found out it was like Santa Claus. so next. February's our 50th anniversary. So my father found of the company 50 years ago, next February.

And. Trying to basically just figure out the history. So I sat down with him one day and I go, wow, the name, big five. It's the five animals. And it's so cool. Cause I was doing research on Teddy Roosevelt and everything else. So I was a kid in school here. We just moved to the us from Kenya. And I said, this is what, who theater Roosevelt was.

And that's what the name big five came from. And he's like, yes, yes, yes he did correct me Uhhuh he just kept a. And then I look back on it about 10, 15 years later, and I go, he was awfully quiet I need to find out why. So, so our 35th anniversary, this was now many years later, 35th anniversary of the company.

He was here, our, our, our country manager in Kenya. Who's the co-founder. He was here. And so I was recording a video of these two and I go. Tell me how the company was born. And, and I asked the same question you did. And I was expecting this really cool story about the animals and how a rhino pierced the side of the vehicle with it horn and flipped it on its side, like Indiana Jones and the making and whatnot.

Yeah. Like, alright, this is gonna be good. I'm holding the camera going. I can't wait to hear this is gonna be so good. And then literally I could hear the. In my head. Cause all I got back was we were having drinks in a bar after work at this particular hotel in Nairobi, we decided, wanted to work together.

We looked up the name of the bar was big five and I just stopped and I go seriously. Well, I guess it's easier to say than Sanka. Yes, exactly. Yes, I have that. What's the, I mean, what's the bill Murray phrase from Chu, so I got that going for me. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, alright with that then we will, we will say though, that big five does at least work on five continents.

Well, five, five continents, not seven. So five C well five. So we'll call it continent. That's five instead of. Yeah. Instead of animals we'll call it. Well, that's because the only thing I can clearly say for sure is alcohol was involved in the creation of the name. Yeah. And, and have to be careful why I repeat that in a sentence to make sure I venue, but I literally got done after hearing that told my father.

I go, that was a cool story. Let's never repeat that in public. Exactly. Here. I am telling you the rest of the world because they're all listening. We're all listener. Yeah. I'm gonna cut that between us. . Today, we are going to talk about Egypt. Mm-hmm and we are going, so basically back to the, the continent where big five was born.

So I'm curious to know how many times have you been to. Okay, so I've Columbia. I counted. It was 40. I'll say this about Egypt. I've been going since I was 15. So I'm second generation from Kenya, which what a lot of people don't know is my mom is actually from Sudan. Okay. My mom was born in cartoons, so, and when the company was started and this part was actually pretty cool.

Before we opened an office in Tanzania, we opened an office in Cairo. So our country manager in Egypt, T and my father opened the office. He's known me since I was, I think, what, 14 years old, something like that. And I've known his kids since they were 10 and less. And now they're, they almost 30. One of them just had another baby yesterday as a matter of fact.

Wow. So, so there, there there's that. And once a student did end New York in graphic design, so there's that cool, cool sidebar. By the way, our country manager's youngest son, who's a student in New York. One of his graphic pieces is actually being used in times square, right? Oh, I did not know that. Oh, awesome.

That's awesome. I learned that. I learned that on the last trip, so yeah, since I was 15, I've been going a long time. Yeah. I'm 40. About to be 45. I look like I'm 70, but about to be where I feel like I'm 90

you're 90. Like funny. Yeah. But, but I mean, you know, all of our family we've been going. Yeah. I took my, I took my, my wife many years ago. We went, my son was two years old, took him to Egypt and, and just it's, it's always felt like home. It's always felt special. It's always felt home because the cuisine you get in Egypt is much like Lebanese cuisine it's and the ESE cuisine.

So it's the, it's the dishes that I grew up eating. My mom still makes, I, I just had one of the dishes yesterday for lunch, as a matter of. Yeah. So it, it it's there. And then just seeing the transformation, but it was literally the second office we opened as a company. And one that I've been going to since I was a teenager.

Yeah. So it's, it's kind of home, like a lot of places to you, but maybe a little more, so, okay. Yes. Good. Yes, exactly. I actually fit in in Egypt. I actually, I actually fit in. I looked the part . Yeah. Makes sense. Yeah, there you go. Good. Makes sense. Okay. All right. Good. We're gonna talk a bit about the changes in the country, which obviously if you have been going, since you were sort of for 30 years, you've been going for 30 years, you have seen the changes from.

Before the Arab spring until after the Arab spring. And what's yeah, basically before and after. Yeah. Yeah. But before we go on with that, I just, I do wanna date this because I always do forget to do that at the beginning when I mean to, so we are recording this at the end of July in 2022, and I am gonna be fortunate enough to travel with big five in Egypt, in November and early December this year.

So that. I'm very excited about that. And we're gonna talk a bit about how that trip is gonna go. So we'll get, we'll get to that point, but to understand the country itself, kind of the people, the, the politics of it have always been a mystery to try. Most of us, we won't get into the politics, but anyway, give us just a little, in a nutshell before and after, like what, how things have trans.

Yeah, look, I, I think what I, you gotta remember that a lot of people forget when you deal with any country in Africa, Egypt included, you're not talking about the 45th president or 47th president or 50th president. You're talking about the sixth or the seventh mm-hmm or the eighth you're you're talking about a country that has transformed.

You had a president that was assassinated. You had one that was overthrown you, you, and, and, and, and everything in between the one constant. And this is something that's really, you, you it's. Common in certain places, but it's consistently unique in Egypt is that every president who has sat has served in the military.

And that's not to say that it's because the military is the ruling power. It's because there's so many countries, Peru is one of them that has now made the military part of the constitution and Egypt. It's a different element of it as well, just to keep the controls in place. So I see, I, I remember going when I was younger and, and, and it would go to, to Egypt and.

It was like any other city I excluded in the part that if you could drive in Cairo, you could drive anywhere. Which is just how the roads were Uhhuh. what you saw at the time. There was a country that was just, and even then tourism was still centric, but it was the bus tours. it was let's how many people can we fit into the pyramids?

Mm-hmm how many people can we fit into the space? How many people can we get into the country at any given point? Now you've seen a country that's gone from that to the period in the nineties, where they had unfortunate incidents, like the, the people that the people that were, that were guns and whatnot, they were, they were trying to hurt tourists, whatnot.

You see a country T. Egypt's the only country that has a true broker piece with Israel. They have, they have regular relationship. They have regular regular agreements, regular partnerships in many fronts. And, and, and, and the part that's really unique about Egypt is the fact that no matter what's happened, they've always come back to base.

And to that base is tourism. No matter what's happened. Okay. So I remember my first visit. I remember this very clearly. I was at this sounded light show. It still happens today. It was the cheekiest sounded light show I've ever been to. It was used in a James Bond movie and I was like, oh, now I know why this bond movie was, was classified so bad, like, oh, the title wrong.

But it had jaws in it. And it had Roger Moore, which I. I loved him, but he was basically walking through the pyramids. Like he was basically going through a hotel in, in Kyra, like, wait, wait, hold on. That's not how it works. Right, right. You know, but I remember seeing that, I remember just seeing just these chairs lined up and then just these buses that were there.

Mm-hmm everybody getting off. Oh, the pyramids. Let's take a picture. Let's take a picture. Let's get on a camel. Let's let's go here. Mm-hmm and I start, I remember just thinking to. There's so much magic here. Mm-hmm that there's gotta be something more. It can't just be about tourism. And I remember thinking that at 15 mm-hmm and so I came, I came back and I kept going back and.

This is more, there's more here. And so I, I remember going back with my family and, and, and with my family was something different because I watched my, my wife had never been, my wife was born in Canada. She had never been to Egypt cuz the first time and I, and we had some friends with us and I watched them, she, her eyes just lit up because she saw the pyramid.

She saw this, I watched my two year old son walk up there, complete stranger of her guide and tell her that he loved. At two years old and I'm like, anyway, even I don't get that. Wait a second. Yeah. Right, right. And there was a bond and then it clicked that. Okay. Uhhuh. It's not just, it's not just the, the antiquities, it's the mystery behind the antiquities Uhhuh.

No, it's not the Brandon treasure movies. It's not the mono movies. It's it's the antiquities behind the mystery, the myth, the, the unknown. Yeah. And so then I started say, okay, well, how do we explore that more? Now you get to 2010 and you get to the Arab spring. I mean, everybody there thinks the world's falling apart.

Mm-hmm . I mean, I I'll never forget when the Arab spring is occurring. I had a conversation with our country manager, GA Jamal is his name and I was, I was doing these radio dispatches every day. We would record of a cold one call together and we would put this call up on social media, whether it's Facebook or Instagram and, and say, look, here's, what's what the news is.

Here's what's happening and kind of listen to this, right? This is before we could really get video up there effectively because the wifi was really not functioning. So the internet, the speed wasn't fast enough to get video mm-hmm so we have to use audio. So we had that and we're getting updates and I'll never forget it was a conversation.

And he said was the protest that just happened. Mubarak was just overthrown. They were now about to go to elections and, and, and the, the, the president Morrisey was about to come in and Mubarak was actually jailed or under house arrest. And my country manager, who he is, he stoic. Right. I've known him since I was at that 15 year old.

And I've never once seen him evoke any kind of emotion except good job. Right. That's as far as we got emotion wise and he was sobbing and he wasn't sobbing because of business. Right. Which was already down the toilet. Yeah. He was sobbing because he kept saying, this is not my country. This is not my Egypt.

This is not my country. And, and I kept listening to him. Now, I want you to picture this because he has two daughters and a son, the son was too young to really know, to really know what was happening, cuz he was just starting to get there. But the two daughters were at the American university in Cairo mm-hmm and, and a lot of people don't understand is that protest wasn't about presidential.

They didn't even know what kind of change they wanted. You can see cuz we went full circle. It was about critical thinking. And I remember talking to both of them, both brilliant, brilliant. They both got their, and their graduate degrees went to Europe. One worked for four seasons, one worked for the UN and both of them said.

You asked us to, to think critically and now you're scolding us for doing just what you taught us to do. That's a big part of what the protester's about. Obviously it developed into something much worse than that, or much more than that, rather, but it started out as people asking questions now in that square, depending who you talk to, some people will tell you that everybody who was in that square were people who were just unemployed and, and, and their problem was everybody else's fault.

But these two girls were in that. Right. They were protesting as well. Okay. And in that house, they were on opposite sides. One wanted the immediate change. Mm-hmm one wanted the president to finish his term in September and a new one to come in through elections because, and whatnot. And, and really it was okay.

Well, the separate question is whether or not the elections were gonna be transparent and whatnot, that was a separate issue. I I'll I'll I'll I'll sidebar with this in a sec for, in saying that not every country. Works best with a full democracy. And I know not everybody wants to hear that. No, but it's the truth.

I, I grew up in a country that had one of the, probably one of the most corrupt presidents for 22 years in Daniel Arab Moy. Right. My, my mom and Sudan had a president there that nobody that, that was about as corrupt as well and was feared. Right? What happened in those 22 years? Nobody messed with the countries.

Nobody messed with them. There was no, there was no domestic issues the way they were afterwards. So. It's not to say that that there's a right or wrong. It's just that you're never gonna get a perfect democracy because look in our own backyard. Exactly. Nothing is a, it's not perfect. Yes. So you get into, into these protests and now all of a sudden the tourism has stopped obviously.

But everybody wants this change. Mm-hmm but nobody knows what the change is. Yeah. Then the new president comes in and everybody wakes up and I remember the country was split in half. When you look at the elections of Morris, he was elected, it wasn't a mandate or a landslide. It was spur pretty evenly. So that means that.

And he said during his inauguration speech, I must never forget that half the country voted for somebody else. And he, he did exactly that the very next day. Okay. Right. So he, he, that was the key thing. And so it didn't matter whether you voted for him or not. It was the fact that he, what, here we are again.

And, and some of the stuff that was enacted a lot of the country, holy said, wait a second. This isn't the change that we asked for. This, isn't what we looked for. Now. You went through a decade where there was some, there was just questions about stability and, and, and in that, in other elections, you come full circle.

Now, president LCC is the current president. He was the Lieutenant , we've come full circle to where we were. Right. So some people will tell you, well, then why did we do do that whole thing in the, why did we even go down that path all, and in the first place, I would argue that that, that needed to. Yeah.

It's part of the evolution. Not, not to torture local people. Yeah. But to make Egypt what it is today, right? Yeah. So what is it today? Compared to, so there's all this leading up to it. What do you see when you go today? So I, I I'll tell you, there's a picture that I, I have to find for you. And, and when we go to Egypt, I will show it to you.

Okay. So back in 2021, April, this, the, the museum of Egyptian museum of civilization had just opened. It was there for a while, but the mummies were being moved out of the old non-air conditioned Egyptian museum to the museum of the, the museum of civilization. Standard of the art, a air conditioned museum.

Right. And there was this beautiful parade that was televised. All the media were attending. It was, it was covered globally. And I remember watching it, it was prerecorded, but what was nice was we had somebody in some of the outer, upper windows around that circle around where the roundabout wasn't. We got to see them practicing.

Okay. And they were doing all of it at night. We gotta see them practicing. And it was, it was great. So as they're doing this, all of a sudden, I pulled up a picture of thre square. Thousand 10. I go, oh my gosh, that roundabout they're going about with the parades and the pyramids where the, where the mummies are going.

That is the exact spot where the protestors had covered. Exactly 10, 11 years before. Wow. That was the exact spot. If that, that can't just be a coincidence. There's gotta be a, there's gotta be something more than that. So, sure enough, I started doing more research and like I said, when we go there, I will show you firsthand when you're there.

And so I pulled up sure enough. I said, look at this. So I called up Gama like center and I said, Gaal did. And this is the second time I heard this man cry. Oh, wow. He said, I have never been. Ah, as an Egyptian, he said it is such a powerful day for us as Egyptians. Wow. Because this is Egypt. Yeah. What you saw 10 years ago.

That's not who Egypt is. That's not who we are. Right. This is who we are. Look at the pump. Look at the circumstance. Yeah. Look at the, look at the finish. Look at the, the, the classiness of how this was done. The heritage, the Myst. Right. When we talk about the mystery behind the antiquities, the, it didn't matter if, whether the one good question were the mummies actually in the two in those coffins or not, didn't matter.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. It didn't matter because there was so much pump circumstance. You have these vehicles pulling out and where they're going. And, and, and I told him, I said, 11 years ago, he said to me, he goes, Ashish, not one Egyptian in this country. And his English is broken, but he said, yeah, not one Egyptian in this country.

Has forgotten that he goes, everybody here already knows what you just said. Every single, if you have any kind of, if your heart is beating and you have blood pumping in your veins and you're pure Egyptian. Exactly. And that's, and he goes to us, the mum is moving is not the part. That's great. Mm-hmm , it's where it's taking place.

He goes, you think that this government and we as a country plan this route by accident. He goes, this is our, he said, this is our arrival. Yeah. I said, that's awesome. That was amazing. And I stop for a second and that's and he's right. Yeah. You cross reference it. It's the day. Think about it. Anybody you talked about Egypt, I wanna go, yeah, I wanna go.

I wanna go. I wanna go there. There's so much interest in the destination. I mean, for us as a company, it's our number two destination right now. Mm-hmm and, and it has nothing to do with how long we've been doing it and more to do with the fact that everybody just says it's time. This has this, this is where we get.

And I, I hate to be sounds so cliche. I sound almost like Charleston. Was it? Who's the actor in char Charles. He Charlton has to, is that the name I said, sorry. Exactly. No, no. That's OK. Has yes. Yes. I was like, almost thinking like, do I start thinking like this, the Dawn of civilization? I, I start narrowing this dramatic dramatic footage.

Yeah. Well, it. I mean, but it, but it is dramatic is, and it is, I mean, we all were, most of us are, and especially folks like me that are history junkies, know the importance of the civilization there and what it means to all of mankind. And I think it's pretty special and spectacular to. It come around like this and have gone through these ebbs and flows.

And like you said, coming around stronger, come out stronger. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. You'll love this. My, so what Al said to me, we were, we were, we were in Egypt last year. We were just talking about the world issues. This was when the issues in Ukraine were just starting. Right. Okay. It was just starting.

Everything in the world was just starting. Of course the unrest was an issue. Everything was just starting to happen. We were emerging from COVID. Everything was happening. And I looked at him and I said, how do you feel? He said Ashish. He said, and, and we have a joke because the, the there's a, there's an Egyptian song that basically goes as, as, so he goes, Ash, Ash, Ashish

So I go, yes, kingdom, Jamal, how can I help you? So he said, he said, can I tell you something? I said, yes. He said, you think we don't know? I said, what are you talking about? He said, everything. The world is going through Egypt has. Yeah, true. And he stopped, he said, he said the plague, we had unrest, we had invasion, we had politics, we had slavery.

We had, he goes everything. Yeah. So then, so then I asked him, I said, what about Samaria versus Egypt in terms of the tigers river UFR river versus where you are in Egypt and versus now stories of civilizations off theosis, Sri Lanka and whatnot, and anti and islands and everything else. He said, Show me one of those civilizations that was functional, like Egypt mm-hmm and I stopped.

And I said, once again, you win right, right. Once again. You're right. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And speaking, okay. About how functional, I mean, just, let's just talk, we'll start in Cairo and let's, let's talk a little bit about the trip now. Yeah. So, and, and how most people. Do the trip. I mean, it's pretty standard procedure arriving, chiro, staying chiro, where you can see the pyramids to begin with mm-hmm and when you're just talking about building and engineering and stuff, what more Marvel could you want than that right there.

That's right. And you're, you're staring at that. So, so you start there and then sort of take me through the process. And also as we go along, elaborate on why we are doing this by land, rather than on sure. Cruise or river crews, basically. About tour. What are the things that's so important to understand about, about tourism?

Egypt is it's not just tourism. It stands for more, but tourism is the largest employer of women in Egypt. I did not. Yeah. And it's also one LAR employers period. One in six jobs is related to tourism. Right? So that's the key, but it's the largest employer of women. Okay. So to come full circle, if you look at the Arab spring, women's rights, took a backseat.

Mm-hmm Egypt, pretty progressive country compared to other countries in that region. Okay. And women's rights took a backseat during the Arab spring, and now they've come full circle. Now tourism is driving the force between putting women in parliament and putting women at the front line, putting women every at the.

Forefront of what people are doing. Right. So, but that also means the evolution of how it's done. Right. So track when I was, when I, when I was first go Egypt, it was, yes. Let's go to chiro. Let's fly to wan Luxor, you know, let's border a dingy floating barge as I call it. Mm-hmm and go down the Nile. Yeah.

And there obviously some very nice boats now, but that, and there weren't, and, and you go and you get off every day and you're seeing the different sites you get back on the boat. And the last night you're putting on a Gallia and you're having a dance party and right. Whatnot. And then you come off the boat.

Everybody's Egyptian, until you come home, everybody has a Sarus focus of the name. Everybody has a, a little, a little Cartus with their, with their name on it. They're wearing that or has a scatter up and you're like, okay, I'm Egyptian, I'm Egyptian. Yeah. Right, right. And then you get back to the plane and go, no, I'm not, I'm not Egyptian.

Yeah. Right. Exactly. Fantasy is over. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that was the first part of Lu. But then now you look, now people want to know more about the local culture, local culture doesn't mean just the Nian culture right back then when people talked about the Egyptian culture. Oh, when we here about the Nian villages.

Thebian culture. Yeah. People want to know about the modern civilization of Egypt. Mm-hmm and the, the, the, the locals in chiro and how they have transformed themselves. Not just Kairo, but us one in Lux. Mm-hmm, how they have transformed themselves. So. The, so the, the idea of doing Egypt has now shifted and not just for tourists, even domestically, right.

There was a lot of resistance internally in the country for doing the, the, the trip by land between Lux and Aswan. Oh, okay. But if, but if you were to take a step back. And look at Egypt and, and in the triangle, obviously there's more areas, but look as a triangle, you've got your most NIC history, the antiquities of Egyptian for pharaohs in, in Cairo.

Yeah. You get to Luxor, you start getting elements of Roman architecture, Roman history there. Okay. You get to Osan, you get our elements of Greek history. Now, obviously it's everywhere, but you get elements of it. Sure. You even go out to Shael shake and to say, Katherine's monastery, you get to the, you can climb with the veterans to the exact spot where the, where Moses received the 10 commandments mm-hmm that's, that's the richness of it.

So with, with our trip, yeah, you're coming into Cairo. You're starting there as a home base and, and you, you have to break higher up into, into, into two quadrants. So you're gonna head, you're basically gonna head. To see the pyramids to see the, to see SAR Sakara, which, and, and, and the bent pyramid, the red pyramid, which I call the practice pyramids.

Okay. The ones they, they did before the main pyramids. Right, right. Get quite right. That's great. You kinda, look, you look at like how they're bent and they're like, yeah. I to look right. yeah. Somebody, somebody failed geometry. Right. That guy didn't that, that guy didn't get to build another period that that's right.

Like, yeah. I'm pretty sure he didn't live past that pyramid. Okay. and, and it's also part of it is also understanding the truth. So I, I was talking to somebody at this, at this travel show just on Monday. Who was talking about how she was just in Egypt as somebody was telling her, no, the pyramids were not built by slaves.

And she was saying what every history book says that they were no, no, no, no, no, no. We were proudly built them and she asked me and I said, look, history is history good or bad? Mm-hmm yeah, it, they were built by slaves. That's that was part of what was occurring that was there. So, so it's explor when we're in Cairo, it's not just seeing their parents they're understanding what it took to build them.

Yes. Right. It also means that no matter how claustrophobic you are, I'm six foot three. I don't like small places. Yeah. Going into the pyramid. Yeah. At least once you gotta go in, if, for no other reason, except to come in, they're getting there and go, how in the world did they get stuff out of here? Not just, not just the archeologist.

Yeah. I'm talking how in the world did looters. Come in here. And, and how, how, I mean, if you're a grave robber, what point do you come in and go, it's just not worth it. Forget. Right. right, right. You're like, you don't forget about it. You're not gonna make this fit through that opening. No matter how what we try that's right.

All right. Who measured wrong? Yeah. So, but, but, but just experiencing that plus yeah. A lot of people don't understand when you get there. It's not just the, the, the claustrophobia. It's how steep down you go. Mm-hmm mm-hmm could you imagine. So you go down to that sarcophagus to, to, to with the bottom of the pyramid, the belly of the pyramid.

Yeah, the air still. And, and I obviously nobody knows what the air smells like 2000 years ago, years, but could you imagine being down there and again, the mystery of saying. There was no air conditioning. There was no airflow. This is what it felt like. Yeah. And, and, and to step, take a step back and go in this kind of atmosphere with this humidity and this warm weather.

Mm-hmm that mummy was preserved. Mm-hmm how good a job was done. Wrapping this mummy. That that body was yeah. The evolving in the whole process. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. I mean, I mean, it was just, it was just, it was just amazing in terms of, yeah. So that's, that's, that's part of that getting into Sakara, getting into, of course, in museum of civilization, the big thing with KIRO, why we're going in November is we're gonna be one of the first groups that goes into the new Grande museum.

I know that's open. You remember this thing is four years in the making. And I honestly said, what I, if this doesn't open this year, I'm gonna go there with a crowbar and open it myself. I'm not really. Yeah, we were, we were talking. Testing legal systems in other countries before that we started the recording and yeah, I don't I'm I'm gonna say, I don't think you should do that.

well, there's some things that are work lobotomy. There's probably one of them. So, so I'll take one for the team. Oh gosh. Okay. All well, we'll let, we'll let you go first. And if you're success, I figured right behind you, way behind you. Exactly. So, so exploring Carol, one of the things that we do in Carroll that I, I love.

Those two young ladies I was telling you about FAA and no. Yeah. So they are GA Jamal's daughters. So FAA in particular got her MBA came back, worked for the United nations on women's rights. And does these walking tours okay. Where she will take you out to, to non touristy parts of panel, whether it's EMEC neighborhood, HEOP other neighborhoods.

So that's what we're gonna do, right? And it's giving you a local field, but there's two aspects to this. The one aspect is to take you to local restaurants where you get a local. local, local food, local cuisine, the stuff I ate at home, the stuff she eats at home. Yep. And having open conversations, open dialogue.

That's unfiltered. It's not formal. Yeah. She's not a professor of politic political science. Right. But to have an experiential open dialogue about politics, women's rights. History. Yeah. Anything you want. I even had one person's to talk her ear off for two years on shoes because she's, she loves shoes. So, so.

Let me interrupt you just for a second, because I wanna point out to, to people that are listening, that that is what really differentiates you all. Mm-hmm, from a lot of other tour companies because, and I find much more since the pandemic, I have people calling me saying, I want an experience. Mm-hmm , I'm not just looking to check boxes.

That's right. And so being able to do a tour like this, and I. I've said it before, it's it shouldn't even be called a tour. It is experience no it's experience as well. It's so special because that's the only way you get to really feel what the culture's like and learn what the people are like is in that's right.

In those kind of situations. And most of the time you're getting driven someplace, you get out and you have your picture taken in front of the, whatever. That's right. And you're oh, wow. Which it is impressive. But it's those relationships and those connections that makes a difference. I also help us figure out that we're all so much alike.

That's right. Every everywhere around the world. So that's exactly anyway. Okay. I've had my little, my little spiel now. well, you're spot on you. You saw it firsthand in Columbia. Yeah. I mean, this is a huge part of it because it's, it's the culture. This is the culture of Egypt and, and father is the first one who tell you, she'll say we're, we're not trying to hide our vulnerabilities.

Right. We're trying to bring them to the surface. So, so the second part of that, that, that dinner that she has it's it is the first part is of course what I just talked about the second. It's not about you. Yeah. The second part is exposing the, those local women who were told for the last 10 years that they need to be pregnant and subservient in the kitchen, the house, exposing them to the likes of you.

Yeah. To say that's not how you're supposed to live. This is how you're supposed to live. There are women that are, are being exposed to things they never were allowed to be before. That's right. And are ha are gaining independence that things never had before. And you won't meet them. They're behind the scenes could be in the kitchen, could be wherever.

Yeah. But the conversations are occurring. Yeah. You see, there's also something really special that started happening during the pandemic with both fodder and nor that, that, that our foundation got involved in, but something that we do very quietly, much like any third country, you have the country of haves and haves.

Right. There's the middle class, the middle class, but you have a pretty big separation between the haves and have nots. So what really came to surface was you know, during Ramadan mm-hmm that, that holy month mm-hmm, where there's a fast thing. You have to break your fast every day. It was astounding.

How many families didn't have enough food to break that fast. Yeah. So during Ramadan fodder and no took it upon themselves with their friends and start delivering food. Mm-hmm to all, they were feeding four and 5,000 families. Wow. These are, these are girls that I've known since they were 10, 11, 10, 11 years old.

And the fact that they grew up to be global citizens on their own. This is what I wanna do. How could you not be involved? Right. How could you not help them? How could you not? And they represent what's possible. Right? They represent that. Okay. No matter how big you get, no matter how powerful you get, no matter how successful you get, you, can't be so big that you can't stop, turn around and go.

I'm bringing you with me. Yeah. And, and that's the key. So that's also a big part of, of what we do. Right. Right. In terms of. If, if you go down to Luxor, mm-hmm, , you're talking about doing the cruises and there there's nothing wrong between not doing the crews and, and, and going, doing it by this. And there's no wrong answer.

Each one's different. Right? We like doing the Overland because of two reasons. One. You do in six hours, what takes a cruise ship to do in four nights or three nights? Right. So for us, we want you to spend more time in Luxor. Yeah. To see the value of the Kings and Queens, not just what you see off the cruise ship, but more time to actually go in depth and see the elements that are there.

And in Aswan going and, and staying at the, the old cataract hotel mm-hmm and actually staying at the hotel. Winston Churchill stayed at now. Winston church's history is not like it was in London, obviously. Right, right. It was, this was, this was before. So this was not, this is the very polarizing past. Sure.

This is where at the Christie wrote death on the Nile. Yeah. This hotel we're gonna be staying there as well. But to see the location of it, but also be in a swamp to actually just take in this paradise and stop and go. I can't believe I'm in Egypt. Yeah. Oftentimes when you go on this cruise ship you on this four night journey, you're already sailing for two nights, right?

It's a beautiful experience. Don't get me wrong, but you've, it's only for a certain caliber of people, meaning you've got to be okay with river cruising. Right. You've got to be okay with downtime or, or you have more time to go and see things. Add more time to do the cruise and. Stay and ask one and look.

Sure. Yeah. Like when you get to the end, you stay there, add some things on, get a guide at that point and right, right. Mm-hmm right. The other part of it with Egypt, that's very unique. And one that we recommend there's guides this Egyptologist. Okay. So we have one Egyptologist all the way through all we'll do.

What's called the regional one. The one Egyptologist is what we'll do for certain people. But basically that means you have one guide with you all the way through. If you are on a ship, if the ship has a guide quarter, the, the client goes in the guide quarters with you. Guide guide court around the boat with you.

But if, if the ship doesn't have a guide course, but some of the, some of the higher cruises don't, then they meet you at every stop and you have private excursions, but then you have time to have a symbol separately, which is what you get to see the temple of Ramsey and see everything properly. You're not just brushing and seeing temple after temple, after temple, right.

It's everything is spread out properly and you're getting a little time to digest it all. Yeah. That's, that's exactly it digesting all of it. Being able to really take in all of it. And, and more importantly, everything slows down. Yeah. Yeah. Egypt, Egypt is, is go, go, go, go, go. They're full itineraries because you're covering a lot every day, cuz there's a lot to see.

Right, but there's also sometimes where you just have to say, I'm still gonna cover this ground because you're doing it by land. You're still covering ed Fu and Kaumba yes. You're missing the lift lock. So if you're an engineering, if you're an engineering guy and you just, mm-hmm, , you're an engineering gal and you just want to see the lift locks.

Okay. Fine. Take the cruise. Right. But if you're a land based person, which I personally am. Yeah. I, I love land based. You're still going out in the Nile and AKA the sailboats. Yeah. You're spending more time in Awan in Luxo you're going up a hotter balloon over Luxo I know you're actually, can't wait for that.

Oh my. Oh, that's gonna be awesome. Except, and we do it privately. So it's a private balloon just for us. Nice. That go up and it's I love it. You get to do Abu symbol when you're doing Abu symbol, which to fly from Awan, but you have time. A lot of people don't really understand how good, how, how magical that hotel is.

And again, that mystery the hotel itself. Yeah, it's a beautiful hotel. It's. But this, the ambiance mm-hmm you walk into this, this, this area that the, the central areas of this old cataract hotel. It's not the hotel, it's the mystery behind the hotel that just grabs you. And it's like, almost like to ghost to the past, grab you and just take you in.

You can feel their spirits as you're basically there. And it's, it's literally, and I have a fun, such a funny story to tell you about this. So when that death in the now movie, the really bad one that was on Netflix, that, that, that with Galla, that. It, it it's, if you haven't watched it don't bother. It's really wasn't the new, the newer remake of, yeah, the newer one.

Oh yeah. I just watched it not too long ago. Yeah. It wasn't great. Yeah. It wasn't great. so when it came out, I remember I had three separate guys that are on cruise ships. Call me up. Mm-hmm all excited. They go, I can't believe that this movie's out. It's gonna promote tourism on the Nile and we're so excited and I just laugh and they go, why are you laughing?

I go, you didn't read the book, did you? Yeah. Why? No, I regret. No you didn't. Yeah. What do you. It's not about cruising on the Nile. Yeah. It's actually about being murdered, but right. okay. The only thing is, is that that's the stage, the Nile's the stage. Exactly. That's about it. Exactly. I'm like, you're basically a murder scene.

You're basically the crime scene. That's I'm like, I wouldn't go on bragging about that. Yeah, yeah. That funny. It was, but it was just, it was, it was funny because they literally took it upon. But when you spend time in Swan, I spend time in Lux. It's not just the movie, but you feel like I remember going out one of the balconies and just sitting and looking at the boats and looking at this and looking at the rocks.

And I often find myself and I, I still haven't figured out and I just kind of think I go, what was a Christie thinking? Like what the book is so good. And it's a, it's not an easy read, but it's a great book. Like, okay. What part of this view or what happened here? And she had gone all over Egypt. She was, oh yeah, she had, yeah.

She had an amazing mind for those things. Oh yeah. Yeah. But, but how do you sit here and write a book like that sitting on this balcony and, and then you, you don't know that you sit down, look at that view and go. This book would this view would inspire Hemingway from the grave mm-hmm I mean, I mean, even, even Edgar Allen poet would find positivity here.

Right? Mean it it'd be that's that's strong of a stay, so yeah. Yeah. I had a friend joke that Edward Allen poet would get here and say, quote, the Raven Egypt forever more am so excited about this. And I wanna also just for anybody that is listening, still that, to say that doing a place, a country and experience like Egypt.

With the right company with the right guide and doing it with a guide is of really ultimate enforcements. There are certainly places that you can do on your own easier than others. But if, and when you undertake this one, make sure that you do it, do it the right way. So you get everything you can out of it.

Absolutely. Right. You'll you'll see firsthand when you're there. I mean, I I'm so excited. I get to go back again. Well, thank you so much. This has been great. And I can't wait to come back and share with people about the trip and through my newsletter and other channels. And as usual, the gratuitous, if you are not getting my newsletter, you should please go to my website, which is client and co travel.com and sign up for it.

And you'll get news about my trip to Egypt, as well as alerted when podcasts are. And so forth and oh, by the way, Ashish has a podcast too. Hold the sustainable voice and that's right. You you're gonna be on my podcast. You're gonna be coming my, and, and we're, we're gonna actually carry on this conversation on that podcast.

Yeah. Cause because we're gonna be talking about Egypt some more. Well as always. Thank you. Sheha appreciate it. Pleasure. Good.