There Is A Method to the Madness
This is a podcast where I will be discussing all aspects of physical fitness. I am an exercise physiologist and personal trainer and owner of Maxwell's Fitness Programs for the last 25 years. My passion is health and fitness and I am excited to share my views, some stories, interviews and much more with you.
There Is A Method to the Madness
Intrinsic vs Extrinsic: The Science That Drives Your Actions
Welcome to the Fit, Healthy and Happy Podcast hosted by Josh and Kyle from Colossus...
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Welcome to there is a Method to the Madness. My name is Rob Maxwell and I'm an exercise physiologist and personal trainer. I am the owner of Maxwell's Fitness Programs and I've been in business since 1994. The purpose of this podcast is to get to the real deal of what really works and, most importantly, why things work. Hence the name there is a method to the madness. Before I get to today's show, I want to thank Jonathan and Lynn Gildan of the Gildan Group at Realty Pros. They are committed to providing the highest level of customer service in home sales. Why don't you give them a shout and figure out what your home is worth? 386-451-2412. 386-451-2412.
Speaker 1:Let's talk a little bit about motivation today. I think motivation is a very critical thing. It's very important and I'm going to explain it from many different angles today. Hopefully. Let me start with a little story.
Speaker 1:I can remember when I was in my what was it probably my senior year of college. I was majoring in psychology and I pretty much knew I was going to go more into the performance side of psychology, or at least I thought I wanted to. That's before I got my master's degree in exercise physiology. I wanted to get into sports psychology and I was leaning towards it. I wanted to be more in the physical realm of things. But anyway, I took a class called motivation because it was more in the tract of performance or sport psychology, which was my greatest interest, and it was a great class. I remember it was a night class, that's neither here nor there, but I just remember the class very well and Dr Fisher was my instructor. He was really good, I really liked him, I had him for other classes was my instructor and he was really good, I really liked him, I had him for other classes and I always tried to take him when I could because he taught also along the realms of the motivational or performance psychology. And the class literally was just called motivation. It was a, an elective for my psych degree and, um, I went in and we sat down and it was, you know, night classes.
Speaker 1:If you had them in college you know that there tend to be a little more relaxed for some reason at least they were then and everybody sits down, he kind of, you know, halfway greets everybody, and uh, he just writes up on the board and I believe it was a chalkboard then, I'm pretty sure and uh, he writes you can't motivate anybody and this was like human motivation was the name of the class. And uh, he starts out with a bang like you can't motivate anybody and it's like okay, so like why are we taking this class? And you know he obviously it was a good, good class starter, good conversation starter and you know you can't I mean you can't motivate them to become more physically fit. They have to motivate themselves. You can assist. You can't motivate somebody to go to a doctor. You can't motivate somebody to do anything. It has to come from within. So let's talk about where that comes from and then what you can do potentially to take some of these tips and make your life better.
Speaker 1:First off, let's define motivation. Motivation is defined as the reason or reasons one has for acting or behaving in a particular way. If you look back on the original origin of the word, to motivate means to move. So your motivation is the reason you have for acting or behaving in a certain way. So what is your motivation? I've said before in regards to health and fitness that if you know your why, the how becomes easy, and I think that's very true. So why do you want to get in better shape? Why do you want to lose weight? Why do you want to run? Why do you want to strength train? Why is the same thing as? What is your motivation for these things? And I think people have sort of an idea what their motivation is, what their goal is, but maybe we don't give it quite enough thought.
Speaker 1:All right, so now I want to talk about different types of motivation. We have intrinsic and extrinsic motivation. Now, rarely are people all or none Like, rarely is it black and white. Rarely are you all intrinsic in your motivation in everything, and rare is it that you would be all extrinsic in your motivation in everything. And rare is it that you would be all extrinsic in your motivation in everything. Is there a better or a worse, or a good and a bad? There's probably not a good or a bad, but there is a better or a worse. It typically is better to be more intrinsically motivated, and I will talk about why here as I close this up. But it's not like being extrinsically motivated is all bad. There are pros and cons, so let's first start with the one that's maybe not the best.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about extrinsic motivation. What is it defined as, how does it show itself and what are the pros and cons of extrinsic motivation. So extrinsic motivation is defined as engaging in an activity to obtain a separate outcome, for example a reward, or to avoid punishment, rather than for the inherent enjoyment of the activity itself. So you are looking for something. When you're extrinsically motivated, you're looking for either a reward like money, like a trophy, like praise, like a pat on the back, mvp award accolades from your boss. So that's all like how extrinsic motivation shows. That shows itself. It also is defined as trying to avoid punishment. So that could be. You don't want to not get your bonus, you want to make sure that you're not cut from the team, you want to make sure that you get playing time. If you're on a team, you want to make sure that you don't, for example, say, have to pay a speeding ticket, right, because you're trying to avoid punishment. So like you don't speed, not because you feel like it's dangerous yourself. That would be more extrinsically motivated. You don't speed because you're trying to avoid a ticket, right? So extrinsically motivated. You're either trying to get a prize, you're trying to get a reward, you're trying to get something positive, or you're trying to avoid the negative. That would be extrinsic motivation. So where is it good?
Speaker 1:So extrinsic motivation could be good for initial activation of an activity. So usually we see it more in younger people, like in kids. So you can use extrinsic motivation positively to try to get somebody engaged in an activity. Like if you're a teacher in school and you want kids to say, sign up for, like the debate team, because you think it's going to be very positive for them to learn how to make cases, to learn how to debate, to learn how to handle confrontations, those types of things you know. You maybe can't just say oh, you will like it and they won't know why. You have to try to get them engaged in the activity. Extrinsic motivation could be a very good tool for that. In other words, if the kid signs up for the debate team because at the end of the cycle or the month or however you do it, they get some kind of like pizza party for those that participated, that's not a bad thing. So usually using extrinsic motivation in the initial stages of something has a huge benefit because the person may not know that they like the activity yet. They may not know that this is something they want to continue to do. So it works for that. It's also good for the people.
Speaker 1:This is kind of like an oxymoron, though I think it's good for the people who are not motivated. So if somebody is not motivated intrinsically, then extrinsic motivation, I guess, is, you know I say I guess because it's like to me it still sounds a little, you know, like you're on shaky grounds, you know. But it's a way to get somebody to do it and they could say, well, at least I'm doing it, even though I'm only doing it for this reason, so you know. So, yes, I would agree that being extrinsically motivated in that case is better than not being motivated at all. The cons to being extrinsically motivated, or more driven by that, is obviously there's a decrease in intrinsic motivation. So, kind of like, the more extrinsically motivated you are, the less intrinsically motivated you are. And again, it's not bad or good, but it's better or worse and it is better to be more intrinsically motivated. So if you're trying for yourself to get more intrinsically motivated, the more you set up paradigms where you're getting extrinsically rewarded or punished, the less likely you are to become intrinsically motivated. So one of the downsides or the cons to being extrinsically motivated is it takes away from your intrinsic motivation.
Speaker 1:The other one I see a lot is task quality really, really diminishes, and I see that a lot. Again, it's, it's it's a degree. I have people that are like really, really, really. When I say I have people, I mean clients, people I coach. I have people that are really, really intrinsically motivated. And then I have people that are really, really extrinsically motivated, and then I have a lot of people somewhere in between, which is probably where most people are most of the time, the people that are the most extrinsically motivated. I see the worst task quality in them. It's something that we always have to work on and I point it out a lot.
Speaker 1:It's like the form on, say, strength exercises is the worst in extrinsic motivation, because all they're trying to do is win. They're trying to hit a task. How many am I doing? You're doing 10. They're trying to get 10 done because they think that's how they get the pat on the back by the coach or they think that that's what they're supposed to do. And then you bring other people into it, like if there's more than them doing it. If a couple people are doing pushups, it turns into a competition and extrinsic motivated people tend to let their form just go out the window, which you know is bad, because in the long run then you're decreasing your ability to win in the end. But extrinsically motivated people tend to have a hard time seeing beyond what's directly in front of them, so task quality really decreases. With extrinsically motivated people, the quality just won't be there, the focus just won't be there. Everything becomes a completion of a task versus doing it the best you can in the moment. All right, so that's the pros and cons of intrinsic or extrinsically motivated people.
Speaker 1:Now let's get into where I would love to see people get more to and again, it's not a black or white thing, more of a degree of more intrinsic motivation. I think we do need some extrinsic motivation, right? I mean, I need to get paid. I need to get paid for doing my work that I do. You need to get paid for doing the work that you do. So there is always a sense of that that it's not like, oh, none of it matters, it does matter, it's just to what degree. I mean Ivo's personally is just totally not studied, not statistic. This is just my opinion on many things. Is I like the 80% rule in things all the time, like with diet? Like be 80% really, really clean on your diet 80% of the time. So that's an example. Well, I would say the same thing with motivation. I would like to see people get extrinsically motivated only 20% and intrinsically motivated 80%. So if we can get more in that direction, I think that would be ideal and then we can take steps to do that, which, again, I will close up when we are done today trying to give you some steps on how to do that.
Speaker 1:All right, so intrinsic motivation is the drive to engage in activities because they are inherently enjoyable or satisfying, rather than seeking any form of external rewards or punishment. So it is doing something for the sake of doing it itself, because you enjoy it and it is satisfying to you. For example, I feel like I'm pretty intrinsically motivated in many things. I do like to run. I like to run because I like to run. I don't always love to start to run, but I like to run, love to start to run, but I like to run Once I get into it, once I'm warmed up. I'm doing it for the sake of it, for the labored breathing, for the focus on basically the footsteps in my breathing. It's a meditative thing for me. It gives me better health and fitness. It makes me feel better when I'm done.
Speaker 1:I'm at my worst when I turn it into an extrinsic thing and I'm worried about, say, a 5k time, or I'm worried about beating somebody in a 5k. Do I think these things sometimes? Yes, like I said, my goal is 80% and sometimes I can get more than 80% or less than 80% and then end up being too extrinsically motivated and I pay the price for it because it becomes less enjoyable. So I like to run for the sake of running, strength training, just the same thing. I love it. Of course I want some extrinsic motivation on that. I want to see the weights go up. That's not really even extrinsic actually up. You know, that's not really even extrinsic actually, but you know again, it's not.
Speaker 1:It doesn't have to be perfectly all intrinsic, but I just like to strength train for the sake of strength training. I like to do it mostly by myself. I like to feel the burn, I like to feel the pump, I like to meditate as I'm doing it, for example, focusing on the form. I just like to do it. It is a good activity for me, so like for me, that's it fits the perfect definition of doing something for the inherent nature of enjoyment. I do enjoy strength training. I enjoy running.
Speaker 1:I'm intrinsically motivated to do these podcasts. I like doing these podcasts. I like doing the emails. There's a sense of satisfaction when I complete writing an email or a portion of a book or whatever, and it's done and it's edited and I look at it like there's a sense of that Like, do I have to get paid for it? I mean no, and I often don't. I like to do it for the sake of doing it. That is intrinsically motivated, all right.
Speaker 1:So now let's look at the pros and the cons of it. So the pros of intrinsically motivated people is, basically, it just increases your engagement in something. You are more engaged. You are doing it for the sake of doing it. You can see it in somebody's face when they're more intrinsic, you can see a better focus in their eyes. You can see a better focus in their facial expression. They are more engaged in the activity. They seem to be following the flow of what is really going on. They are definitely less distracted.
Speaker 1:People who are more extrinsically motivated are more distracted. People who are more extrinsically motivated are more distracted. People who are more intrinsically motivated are more focused. The other pros are the quality of the task. When you're doing something for the sake of doing it, you put your heart into it, you do it right. If you're doing laundry because you like to do laundry a task I don't like to do but you're going to do it with more quality, you're going to make sure that you put the spray and wash on certain things before you put it in. I mean, that's just a silly example, but it doesn't have to all be about working out on big things. We can be intrinsically motivated in tasks that we're doing because we just enjoy doing them and they're the right things to do. We stay focused and we improve our quality of task. When we're extrinsically motivated, we are distracted and the quality goes down.
Speaker 1:Now, the only real con to intrinsic motivation for us people that measure it is it's harder to measure. How do you know? How do you know, like, how do you go? Oh man, I'm intrinsically motivated. It's like well, how do you know that? Do you like it? Well, yeah, I like the activity, but I also like the on the back. It's like oh, I mean. So it's hard. It's just harder to measure. It's harder to help students or people that are trying to learn how to get there. It's harder to help them know. So it's just more subjective. It's harder to get people to really feel it All right, so there's really not much we can do about that. It's just understanding that. The con is you may not know. When you're there You're getting a good idea that you know you are getting closer to it though.
Speaker 1:Genetics wise, you know, it appears that Most of being extrinsic or intrinsically motivated is learned. So most of what we know about this is a learned phenomenon. There is some sort of genetic link to being more intrinsically motivated. There are some personality traits. People that tend to be more extroverted, people that tend to be more adventurous, tend to be more intrinsically motivated because they like to do things for the sake of doing it. So that's kind of genetics. Like your personality trait is definitely more genetically inherited. And then there's also some science on the dopamine system. So people that tend to be more intrinsically motivated have maybe a slightly healthier dopamine system. So they get more rewarded with dopamine naturally by doing good acts or doing things that they know they should do, without needing the extrinsic motivated system of a pat on the back or money or a trophy. So there does appear to be some genetic predisposition towards intrinsic motivation, but ultimately the science, the social science, says that both can be learned.
Speaker 1:So how do we learn how to do it? I mean, I'm going to sum it up really simple. The first thing is you have to understand the importance of it. You have to understand that extrinsically motivation, you have to understand that extrinsic motivation is only going to carry you so far. It's good to get into an activity, but if it continues to stay your motivation, you're probably going to drop out of the activity. You're probably not going to get much better because your O is consciously measuring yourself against other things or things you can't control, and you're probably not going to do a very good job at the things that you do. So the first step is you have to just acknowledge that it is a potential problem.
Speaker 1:The second thing is you have to pull yourself out of activities where extrinsic motivation is the only reward. You have to go well, you know what no-transcript give yourself pats on the back for a accomplishment that feels good about yourself. If you know that strength training is good for you and you want to get more intrinsically motivated in strength training, then you should strength train and then be able to blow your own nose, so to say I mean, look, people that go to a trainer need some motivation, help, they need accountability. That's different and there's nothing wrong with that. We just also need to get to the point where we know what we're doing feels good for ourselves and we know how to say okay, so I didn't hit the eight reps my trainer told me to hit. But at the same time, I know I did my best and you can give yourself a pat on the back for that because you know that you gave your best. So that is the final step is understanding that. How do you learn to do things and then give yourself that kind of reward and or, you know, punishment, in other words, have some self-discipline to say I could have done a better job with that, all right. So let's see what we can do to become more intrinsically motivated this week, because I do.
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