Unicorn Leaders
The Unicorn Leaders podcast takes a deep dive into the world of building a billion-dollar company (a unicorn) in every episode. Join us while we explore the leadership and environments that create unicorn startups straight from those with first-hand experience (startup founders, VPs of talent, and more). The podcast is hosted by Fahd Alhattab, the CEO of Unicorn Labs and a millennial workplace expert who specializes in providing transformative leadership and team dynamics training for high-growth startups. Fahd has been researching what creates high-performing teams over the last five years. Join him as he asks his guests the hard questions to uncover what it means to be a leader in our fast-paced, information-based world.
Unicorn Leaders
Ep. 8 - Productive Conflict with Shawn MacDonell
Shawn MacDonell shares his unconventional story of saying yes to experiences from sports coaching, to facilitating tools for teaching in Columbia, to branding strategy, to professional coaching, to founding a creative agency.
He speaks to how all of these offered him the experience of not being afraid of conflict and instead reframing it to curiosity and exploration. To understand why people make certain decisions and encourage them to learn to ask the same questions.
In episode 8 he shares with us how to reframe conflict from being a dirty word, the importance of believing in yourself to try new things, how illusive giving good feedback actually is through our communication pitfalls, and more.
Tune in to hear some truth bombs from the ultimate holder of the mirror and reflect along on your own beliefs and whether your current actions and practices are holding you back.
I think conflict's a dirty word. I think people are shy away from conflict, and we have conflict studies and conflict management, and we study all this stuff, and it's like, wait, what? How to have an argument? Is that what's happening? You know, and I think we learn that from like shitty politics, like of this backstabbing stuff. And I'm like, no, no, we can have, we can disagree. Nobody, we don't have to disagree. We don't have to agree on everything ever, always. Like, you know, so I'm all for it. I'm like, hey, conflicts in the workplace means the workplace is going to grow probably.
SPEAKER_02:Hello and welcome to the Unicorn Leadership Podcast. My name is Fahad Al-Hattab and this is where we interview leaders on how they create high-performing teams, how they create high-performing cultures and how they have become more effective managers and leaders. Our goal is to bring you the insights, the tools, the different methods and frameworks that they've had to try and the mistakes that they've made so that you can learn from them and you don't have to make them yourself in your leadership practice as you build a team and you build your startup. This podcast is brought to you by Unicorn Labs, where we help develop managers into leaders that create high-performing teams that help businesses scale. You can check us out at unicornlabs.ca. And today, I'm excited to bring you Sean McDonnell. He's the founder of Creative Vision. He's actually a really longtime friend and mentor of mine, which makes it a lot more exciting to speak. It was a ton of fun to hear his stories on his pod. He considers himself and describes himself at one point in his career as a professional ass kicker, which I think pairs really well to his approach on conflict and difficult conversations. And that's what today is really all about. That's what today's episode is about. How do we lean into courageous conversations? I'm so excited for you to listen to this episode because Sean's ability to not shy away from conflict because he reframed his views on feedback. He shares a great wisdom on how others can follow his lead in their approach and ultimately pull people out and pull them into a growth mindset due to these conversations. See, I share a little story for myself on when I realized the importance of embracing conflict in a team. I was president of my student union in my university. I went to Carleton University. I was president of the student union there. And, you know, we were, the year of the student union, there was a federal election happening. and we wanted to encourage students to vote and so we had come up with all these different ideas and campaigns to actually get students out to vote I remember sitting down with my team and we were there and different people were saying all we should do we should have a debate on campus like that's a great idea we should do all these posters on campus great we should do some marketing online to encourage students to vote all these different ideas it was great and then Two folks who were on our team, one of our friends, Maddie Adams, and another one, Abel Hazon, who both came up with the idea and said, hey, I think... I think we should try and do a music video to encourage students to vote. I remember thinking, I'm like, hey, that's weird. Like, what do you mean music video? No, we can do a rap. We can do a music video. We can do a whole parody. We can make a video, a fun video that will engage students who don't typically want to come to debates or get the conversation going about voting and the importance of voting. I was a bit hesitant, but I was like, you know what? This is going to be a fun idea. This is cool. All right, sure. hide out. So we took Maddie and Abel's lead and we kind of dove into it. And so we had we had started coming up with different creative ideas. And we wanted to remix a song. And so we found the song, I'm on a boat, which I'm sure many of you know, Lonely Island song, I'm on a boat. And we remixed it to, I'm gonna vote. I know genius, right? So we remixed the song. They ended up writing all this lyrics on about voting and showing up to vote. We had a friend who had a studio. So we went to record it there. And we had a friend who had a number of different video cameras. So we wanted to make a whole music video, we got backup dancers, all our friends. We even had a little iPhone taped to a stick so that we can get like a drone shot. We didn't have a drone, we get a drone shot. And we wanted to really copy frame per frame the I'm on a boat kind of video and really make that go viral. And we thought this is gonna blow up, this is gonna go viral, this is gonna be amazing. And so we created a video and we Send it out. And we put it on YouTube. We put it on Facebook at the time. And we were so excited because we were like, this is going to blow up. This is going to be amazing. And within two days, we had over 60,000 views on YouTube. And it was blowing up. We had CBC contacted us, Globe and Mail, Ottawa Citizen. We had all these different newspapers. Everyone in the school essentially had seen the video in two days. But the article headline... We got on Vice News. We even got an article on Vice News. And the article headline on Vice News was Worst Canadian Music Video in History. We were trending on Reddit, subreddit cringe. People absolutely... A lot of people absolutely hated the video and thought it was absolutely cringy. I mean, to us, it was a parody, but I think a lot of students thought it was real. And here we were, the leaders of the student union on camera having this parody. Now, here's the part I didn't tell you. We actually, you know, the music video, Lonely Island, I'm on a boat, is filled with profanity. Like every third word is a swear word. And we thought, well, we're university students. We can make our own decisions. We filled our song with profanity. profanity. So it was like, motherfucker, I'm gonna vote. Look at me, bitch. It's just like, it's still on YouTube. We had taken it down for a while. And actually, more recently, I had re-uploaded it because it was a story we started to tell. But here's what was interesting. When all the negative feedback started coming in, I had a student call me at our office and say, Fahad, you lowered the value of my Carleton degree because of this video. Some people really didn't like it. Well, I was kind of taken back I thought hey this was a good idea this was a fun video this is cute like a lot of humor it'll engage a lot of students but the the backlash seemed so much and and something I didn't predict so we called a team meeting we got everyone together all your executives all of the student elected and I said guys what do you think we should do should we remove this video um and and how do we react to this right like we thought we were doing something okay but but we cut all this negative feedback and a few members spoke up and said, yeah, Fahad, I didn't think it was a good idea in the first place. Another person spoke up and said, yeah, I think we should remove it. I think it's a bit offensive. I don't know. It's not a good look. And I was really surprised because I was like, well, what do you mean? Well, you didn't say anything in the first place. You knew this idea was happening. Why didn't you say anything? And one of them looked at me and said, Fahad, you don't always create the space for us to disagree with you. And that moment was powerful for me. He said, you don't always create the space for us to disagree with you. I think a lot of managers and a lot of leaders who have really strong personalities, who have ideas, who want to drive the boat forward, who want to drive innovation forward, we don't realize that the silence we're getting at times from our team is the thing that's going to eat away and kill us. It's going to kill our innovation. It's going to kill our progress. Ed Catmull has this fun line. He says, if there's more truth at the water cooler than there is in your boardrooms, then you've got a problem. If we're not actively creating space for people to embrace conflict and debate, then we're not building a high-performing team. See, I think I thought, well, I asked people's opinions. What do you guys think about this music video? And just because I asked for opinions and didn't hear anything back, I thought, okay, you're fine with it. You're cool with it. But I didn't realize that there was dissenting opinions that were being held back and I didn't pull them out. I didn't give them space for it. And I think our relationship with conflict is going to be a big determinant on that. Today in this episode, we're going to discuss how Sean's journey and his lessons came to shape his take in philosophy on conflict, how it relates to coaching leaders and the coach approach that we talk about, how ultimately leaders are mirrors for their team, and that leadership by example becomes so important, and how important it is to take personalized communication approaches when we're giving feedback, when we're embracing conflict and we're creating space for that. And so as I went through my lesson with my team and understanding the importance of embracing conflict and giving space and creating that, Sean goes through some of his own lessons. So let's cut away here to hear a little bit of Sean's experience when he was coaching rugby and one of the things that he came to.
SPEAKER_01:athlete and saying like how instead of me just giving him negative feedback I was like well what what did you see out there on the field because like what he did was not the thing I wanted him to do which you know is totally like could have been a conflict but I was like but what did you see or hear that made you do that and the thing that happened for me was it was a young athlete and I was a young coach and the athlete really didn't have an answer and And I was like, okay, I need you to be a thinking athlete. So we need to have these conflict and these discussions, because I don't want you to just do the rote thing. And then that trickled into everybody that's ever worked for me.
SPEAKER_02:And so in this episode, Sean is going to share some of those stories, share his unconventional story of saying yes to experiences from sports coaching to facilitating tools to teaching in Columbia to branding strategy to professional coaching and finding a creative agency. He speaks to how all of these have offered him the experience of not being afraid of conflict, but instead reframing it as curiosity and exploration. And that's what I love is that I don't, just disagree with you. I'm curious as to why I disagree. I'm curious as to what you have to say. I'm a detective in that process. And to understand why people make certain decisions and he encourages them to ask the same questions and he asks to learn more about people. This is episode eight for us. He's going to share how to reframe conflict from a dirty word to a word that you want to embrace, that you want to believe in yourself, in trying new things, in having courageous conversations So tune in to hear some fun truth bombs from the ultimate holder of the mirror and reflect on along your own beliefs and whether your current actions and practices are the ones that are holding you back. Let's dive into the episode. All right, Sean, welcome to our Unicorn Leaders podcast. I'm excited to have you on this. We have a ton of phenomenal conversations when you and I just, you know, whether we're planning work like the podcast or whether we're doing some of our own crazy projects. We've done work together for over a decade now from youth empowerment work and leadership work to even, you know, one of my earlier startups, Frank is a phone, where you played a big role on that. So Sean, I'm really excited to have you on this podcast with us because I know we're going to have a fun conversation. And today's theme is all about productive conflict. It's all about feedback. It's all about candor. It's all about making sure that we engage in these discussions. And I know you've got some really interesting opinions on this and I want to dive us right into it. So let's dive with opening up the big question as we always do. What is your take on conflict in the workplace.
SPEAKER_01:My take, well, thank you so much for having me. It's like super exciting to be here. And my take always is like, I actually, I love conflict. I think it's the best thing. That's like, please give me more conflict. I want to hear thoughts and opinions. And as someone who's like employed people for 18 years and been coaching sports, it's like, I don't want you to agree with me. I want you to challenge me so that we can all grow. And it's like, I don't think you can grow if we don't have... healthy ways to manage that and like healthy ways to have conflict. I don't think, I think conflict's a dirty word. I think people are like shy away from conflict and we have like conflict studies and conflict management. We study all this stuff and it's like, it's like, wait, what? Like how to have an argument? Is that what's happening? Like. You know, and I think we learn that from, like, shitty politics, like, of this backstabbing stuff. And I'm like, no, no, we can have, we can disagree. Nobody, we don't have to disagree, we don't have to agree on everything, ever, always. Like, you know, so I'm all for it. I'm like, hey, conflicts in the workplace means the workplace is going to grow, probably.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you bring together extremely talented, smart people with trying to solve a complex problem, they're not supposed to agree. You get really smart people with a big problem. How do we expect them to agree? And why is that the case? So let's dive into a little bit of that because you've got quite a bit of experience from sports coaching to running your own agency to team development that you do. Tell me a little bit about where your philosophies on conflict developed.
SPEAKER_01:so early early on I think anything that's happened to me in my life it's been through sports and I started coaching sports I'll try to keep this really brief but I tried to coach I started coaching sports really early on through conflict actually we had virtual at the school that I was at which meant like school was over at whatever time it was 305 that meant like everybody got in the bus go home teachers get out of here no extracurriculars and I remember I was a really quiet kid up until that point but at that point I was like no way this is crazy like what do you mean there's no extra school sports like that's that's nuts I was like you know you've just made it through what about all the grade seven and eight year old grade seven and grade eights that have like made it to the school and like in elementary school you don't really have a team right like you make the team you play the sport the season's over like there's no real team dynamic there and I was like this is nuts so I remember speaking up and like being really mad about it and I was talking to the athletics director at our high school actually who happened to just because I grew up in a small town happened to be my neighbor and I was like this is friggin lame and he was like well teachers don't have to be the only ones that can coach you can coach Or you can get anybody from the community. And I was like, well, who would that be? And he was like, well, you should do it. And I was like, okay, but like, where do we do it? And so he was like, I'm going to help you. Like, I'm going to give you all the plans, although you can't tell anybody. And then I had my first bout of conflict. And it's fully, I fully remember all of this, actually, with the principal, who was like, No, the gates are closed to the school. You can't use the land to practice. And I was like, that's ridiculous. That doesn't make any sense to me. The soccer field that I was coaching on was actually... part of the recreation association and actually not even the high school so I went to them back and forth and then I felt very empowered actually in this conflict to cut the lock and so I cut the lock as like a 15 year old I cut the lock and opened the gate and we had this discussion and I remember the principal being really mad at me and I remember having this back and forth but he actually treated me like a human being and Like we had, we were able to have a conversation in this, like, it wasn't comfortable, you know, and it was my first realization. And then like sports just kept pushing me and kept teaching me things. And I think really, for me, developing conflict is okay. came from watching a lot of movies and like watching sports as a kid and seeing like the typical coach was supposed to be someone that was like kicking water bottles and smashing like playbooks and like throwing shit and it's like
SPEAKER_02:gotta break the clipboard right like
SPEAKER_01:yeah yeah yeah you gotta break it across your knee you gotta like pull out your hair and yell and be angry and I I totally was like yeah this makes sense to me and that's how we like motivate people and when there's problems like you're supposed to yell about it And then over time, I remember as I grew up and grew up as a coach, and then as I was opening up a business, which happened kind of simultaneously while I was doing some of this stuff, somebody said to me, or I think it was Simon Sinek that I was watching, and he was like, why? And I remember that why question being in there, and then I remember that filtering into my brain. And I remember sitting with an athlete and saying like, Instead of me just giving him negative feedback, I was like, well, what did you see out there on the field? Because what he did was not the thing I wanted him to do, which could have been a conflict. But I was like, but what did you see or hear that made you do that? And the thing that happened for me was it was a young athlete and I was the young coach. And the athlete really didn't have an answer. And I was like, okay, I need you to be a thinking athlete. So we need to have these conflict and these discussions, because I don't want you to just do the rote thing. And then that trickled into everybody that's ever worked for me. I'm like, well, how come you did it that way? And I was curious. I've like, I changed my brain from being mad angry boss which like you know and even even boss is like in leaders and managers on tv right like what's the image of always like ah you're slamming the phone and making the deals and you know and that's supposed to be the boss right and it's like why is that the boss like that that seems crazy and and you're gonna have a lot of heart attacks you know for problems that aren't probably big problems and it's like can we not just have conversations with people and and for sure we're not going to agree like oh my god i've employed hundreds of people over the years and i've had hundreds of athletes and i'm like oh my god if every single one of them agreed with me that that would be something wrong with the world right like we don't need more of me out there that's one is enough
SPEAKER_02:i'm sure we could do with with another one or two you know that's um maybe maybe one or two more um You know, what I find so interesting, Sean, as you share that, I think it's very powerful hearing you in your youth, you know, at the age of 15, finding agency in yourself too, right? Like that sort of, hey, the adults aren't always right moment, you know? Like you're wrong and you know what? I'm going to learn to speak up for myself. I think is actually something we want to also teach employees and staff members that like, hey, your managers are not always right. And we might just do things because this is just the way it's been done or we figured it out one time and we kept on doing it this way. Right. And nobody's ever challenged it. And I think that that agency. mixed with willing to debate the existing idea is what we call conflict but really it's just finding your voice and I really like how you place it because that's kind of and even your shift it was like shifting from conflict with my you know students or the people I'm coaching to like a discovery like you're a detective why are you doing this right and I like that because as you said conflict is a dirty word but I think if you reframe it in those two pieces right finding one's voice or seeing it as like a detective trying to figure out why someone did something, you already have a completely different mindset in approaching conflict. I really like that.
SPEAKER_01:Most times people don't know why they're doing the thing. That's what's empowering for me as a manager, as a coach, as a leader. I'm like, if I ask that question and they don't have the answer, then that's an awesome opportunity for me as a leader, as a coach, as a manager, as a whatever, to say, okay, great, well, let's dive into that. Let's talk about that a little bit more because if you're not a thinking athlete or a thinking employee or whatever, then what value are you? I want you to think. I want everybody who works for me, they need to be entrepreneurial.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. Now, Sean, we have a little bit of history, so I know a little bit about your career journey, but maybe let's share a little bit about that. You've obviously been coaching sports for a very long time, but you've also got a very entrepreneurial kind of, I know we used career journey, but career is maybe a more stagnant word, and your entrepreneurial journey has been many different projects, but let's give the listeners a little bit of a back background. I'll start us off. You finished school, you went into computer science, and you hated it and dropped it. That's where the story I know starts, you
SPEAKER_01:know? Yeah, that's where it all started, yeah, yeah. And thank God, thank God I hated it. You know, now I'm where I am. So yeah, so being in high school, I think, and you know, you know my thoughts about the school system, but it's like, it's there, but it's like, are we helping people find their things so like for me it was always like I was good at math I was good at computers so everybody pushed me towards that and also we were at a time when Nortel which is like a local technology company was blowing up and people were making hundreds of thousands of dollars my cousin was in there and it was like oh that seems alright I guess I'll just go do that and I was coming from a town of like 1200 people and like 20,000 cows so that gives you an idea where I was coming from
SPEAKER_02:and people right
SPEAKER_01:and it was like oh my god like computer and computers weren't really like not everyone had a computer unlike today um so it was kind of new and it was interesting so I went down that path came down to Ottawa the big city uh you know and um Yeah, I did computer engineering. I hated it because of the solitariness of it. It was programmed from here to here and then pass it off to the next person. And you don't know who the next person is. So the thing that broke the camel's back for me was, it literally was a project that was like... your person B in group three and like you're gonna code this many lines to this many lines and then when you're done you're gonna put it in an envelope and you're gonna stick it in a slot and then the person whatever three or four is gonna come and they're gonna grab it and then they're gonna work on it and it was like there's no connectedness um so that's where I was like alright I think I'm out I don't I don't wanna do this but that's my life
SPEAKER_00:yeah
SPEAKER_01:and so I came back uh came back moved back to Shavo um You know, I didn't know what I was going to do. A friend of mine said, oh, I wish my kid could learn how to read better. And I was like, school sucks. I could teach your kid how to read through baseball. And two weeks later, I called her up and I was like, I'm going to do it. And she's like, what are you going to do? I was like, I don't know how I'm going to do it, but I'm going to teach your kid how to read through baseball. So we started with like 26 baseballs, A to Z. We started taking kids to the park. We threw in all the mandatory reading because I was like, nobody was excited about that, right? Like these are six-year-olds, seven-year-olds. They're not excited about reading. whatever they're reading. So they were excited about baseball. They were excited about sports. These were kids that I totally connected with. And I was like, great, let's read far advanced past you. So we were reading all kinds of like little articles and we were playing games and skip ahead many months. I'm back in Ottawa and there's a friend of mine and his aunt is running an English for second language program with Colombian students here. And Colombian students are coming up. They're learning English. And she knows what I've done. And was like, hey, would you be interested in helping run part of this program? And I, being me, said, yeah, duh, yes, of course. And I loved it. I can figure that out. Yeah, I can do that. I totally know what I'm doing. And at the end of that program, the Colombian group came and asked me, hey, would I bring my... company down to Columbia to help work on other projects and I was like yeah of course and then I quickly ran home and typed into the computer how the fuck do you start a company because I didn't know what I was doing I didn't have a company convinced two of my friends to take a semester off but we went down to Columbia we taught English as a second language and then kind of two years of doing that kind of thing and massaging what that looked like we started teaching math and geography and any subject we could we were teaching it in different ways and really getting people's young people because they're curious I think this is and this is where I think you know the school system really fails a lot of people is like and I think workplaces also to a larger extent like we fail people because they're curious and then we bash out their curiosity to do it the way we want it done um you know and that gets squashed and you get afraid to make a mistake because oh my god what if i get graded and i have an f or what if i what if i don't do a good job on this project they're gonna fire me and it's like why would they fire you why wouldn't they take the time to encourage you you know so in that process, uh, people were like, wow, that's really creative. Would you be interested in doing, uh, and this was at the time when like YouTube was just starting to come around. So it was like, you know, would you be interested in doing some marketing or branding or helping us with a strategy? And I was like, yeah, of course. Yes. Duh.
SPEAKER_02:I have a company for that one too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Let's, let's do it. Let's dive in. I can do it. I'm very creative and I hadn't really thought of myself as creative until people started saying that about me. And Yeah, I'll believe you. Let's go down that road. That's
SPEAKER_02:so interesting. Just if I can pick on that for a second, Sean, because it is the single word I associate with you, right? Yeah, Sean's like the creative guy. He's the most creative
SPEAKER_00:guy.
SPEAKER_02:It's just as far as I've known, right? But it's wild, and I love hearing that because I think it's so good for everyone that's listening. It's just like you didn't even associate yourself with that word when first getting started, right? No. Our leaders so many times struggle with that. Don't associate with, oh, I'm a leader. I'm a manager. What does that mean? How do I engage in that? A total disassociation and then kind of leaning into it. Cool. Keep going. I'm loving this.
SPEAKER_01:No, no. It's true. I didn't really realize that until people started saying that. And then I was like, yeah, I am and I do and I want to be. And it was like, all right, cool. So now we skip way ahead and I'm studying psychology. So I've left machines and now Now I'm studying humans. It's like go total opposite. And people were like, wow, did you ever feel like you wasted time? And I was like, absolutely not. When I was doing the computer engineering, it was very much if this, then that, like the engineering language. which is 100% relatable to everything I do today and everything I was doing back then of people like, if this, then that, you know, and if this, then that, then this, then try that, you know, and just keep going, right? And it's like a perpetual cycle of that. And I remember going in to do, or I had been approached to apply for a marketing project. And I was like, yeah, we're going to do it. We're going to do this marketing project. And I was kind of scared, but also I'm always just whatever. So I was like, we're going to do it. So I remember going into the pit and I remember thinking, I stood in front of some folks and I was like, Okay, all the people outside, they have marketing degrees. I know nothing about marketing.
SPEAKER_00:It's
SPEAKER_01:a great way to start off. I was like, I know nothing about marketing, but I've been studying humans, human behavior, and working with humans for a very long time. I know everything about people. And I was like, they're all going to give you something slightly different or, you know, similar, like, but it's slightly different. I am not going to even remotely touch what they're going to do. I want to go this way, you know? And I remember the, one of the guys at the table was like, he just said, finally, you know, it was like something fresh, interesting, good. Right. It was something new and shocking and, And yeah, so that's been, and then now, yeah, so now Creative Vision's been around for 18 years, which has been a creative agency that has had its toes in marketing, branding, anything creative, we've kind of done it. And I say we being, it could have been anywhere from like 23 full-time employees to probably 40 like part-time contract folk working on different things. And the history just goes on and on. And I've had my hands in 14 other companies. And I've coached everything from rural little town soccer and volleyball to national level rugby.
SPEAKER_02:I love that. That's so awesome. Thank you, Sean, for sharing your story with us. No, genuinely, I think it's refreshing and it's encouraging and inspiring for many folks who are... I
SPEAKER_01:think it's the story of just saying yes a lot. Believing. I don't know. I never believed in myself until this day. It was John Petty who was like, hey, why don't you go coach this team? And I was like, Oh, I could do that. Maybe. Like, and it was like one single person that said one thing that like flipped a switch. And then it was like a host of a couple other people that were like, yeah, we do believe in you. Or yes, you can do that. Or, you know, it was just like... It doesn't take much, you know? And it was this, like, just say yes idea that was, like, that really has served me well. Like, say yes to things. I don't know, like, what's the worst that's going to happen, right? Like, just, yeah, okay, sure, we'll go to Columbia. You know, and I didn't know what was going to happen. Like, so what if it burns and fails? Like, let's just try it.
SPEAKER_02:Let's just try it, yeah. You know, and Sean, I see you take this nudging coaching approach to all of it. do in life, with your staff, with your team. Your style of conflict is, why don't you try that? Give that a go. Here, try it. Push it to hit. Just put it out there. See what happens. It's that nudge that sometimes people need. You know what? That's another, I think, reframe of feedback. Today, talking about conflict and feedback. That feedback that you got saying, hey, why don't you try to do the team? Hey, do you want to try to do for me? Just a little piece of feedback, and that's You took it and said, yeah, you know what? I'll try it. I'll do it. And you take that approach. So maybe let me dive back into that. You've got a little bit of a coach approach to how you do things. You were a professional coach, executive coach, specifically a professional ass kicker. I think that was your title. Tell me a little bit about those days. Tell me about your professional ass kicking days and how that shaped you as a manager and as a leader.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah. I mean, so I took everything that I was kind of doing in sports and I had mixed it with business. Right. And I've been doing it for a while. And I just started realizing that friends and like friends of friends started asking advice. And I, you know, and we always would go into that. I always said yes. So I was like, yeah, let's meet. Let's chat. I'll give you time. And because I felt lucky because people had always given me time. So I was like, I'm going to, people have given me time. I'm going to give you time to talk about this. And it was like, when I started out, I remember like being, I don't know, almost nervous because I was young. And I think that's where you and I have always related because I was young when I started doing coaching and they're like, how, why are you 20 something telling me a 40 something? And I'm like, well, but if we go back, um, everybody has an opinion and an idea and like the world experience that you have can impact your views, right? Like I don't care if you're 50 or 80 or 10. I don't know what your life's been like. Maybe you have a ton of information and knowledge that I don't know and you probably do, you know?
SPEAKER_00:So
SPEAKER_01:I started coaching and working with these people and it took a few times to like believe that I could even give feedback to people. Like I remember putting, putting my little sign up there and working with some people and, and like working with peers, but then starting to work with actually some peers, like aunts and, uh, like older folks that, and they would come to me and I, I would just kind of tell them my story. And I, I almost just let them believe in this, like the ability to say yes and, and like just asking and like I would just prod little questions like, well, what do you like to do? And I remember we dove really deeply into life maps and I just want to talk about that for a second because when I dropped out of computer engineering, I did every single one of those retesting things or whatever that would tell you. Career tests. Yeah, right? So I did all of those. I did every single one of them. Do you want to know what every single one of them said to me in the mail when I got the results and things?
SPEAKER_02:I feel like you're
SPEAKER_01:setting it up for a
SPEAKER_02:good computer science.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, they all said I could be a computer fucking engineer. And I was like, I already did that. And I don't like it. Because I was good at that. And that was my aptitude. But I had to really, the first time, and I don't even know... This is something I don't remember. But it was like I sat down and I actually was like, okay, I'm going to draw out my life map. Where did I start? What were the highlights? What are the lowlights? And I remember doing that activity for myself and coming up with like, well, I like being social. I like being with people. I like being outdoors. I like having my own time and doing that kind of stuff. And I remember challenging older people to do that because they would often come to me and they'd be like, here's my resume. Here's my cover letter. This is where I've worked. I'm like, great. I don't care about any of that. I was like, tell me about you, the person. And I remember specifically, there was this one woman, she was in her 50s. And she had been a mom her whole life. And she kind of had given up a career in science to be a mom. And now she was coming to me and this started happening often. It was like, all of these people that just wanted me to tell them like what, what to do you know it was like just tell me what to do and they wanted this like feedback of like you must know you're the guru like you know and I'm like you know I don't know
SPEAKER_02:all things
SPEAKER_01:right I don't know anything and I all I did was I remember like sitting there and being like I am an excellent Holder of the mirror. And I was like. This is my feedback for you. Tell me what you like to do. And like really tell me. And people didn't know. And like people. Like I remember that woman sitting in front of me. And I remember her crying. Like breaking down and fully crying. Because she had lost herself. Because she didn't know. Because she had been a mom. Her children had grown up. She had worked in a couple different jobs. And it was scary for her to say. And I kept pushing her. To like. go deeper, go deeper, tell me, tell me, you know, and I remember her crying and I remember I remember having that conversation and a previous me would have felt uncomfortable. And I'm like, great, you're crying. That's awesome. Now we've hit real gold. I was like, I like, you know, and I, and people, I think sometimes see that as, um, not very empathetic or, uh, or maybe I'm, I'm mean or cold or whatever. And I'm like, no, that's, we had to get to the bottom of that, you know, to get that breakthrough. And it was like, I'm okay with feedback like that. I'm okay. We're allowed to have emotions, um, you know, and like feedback sometimes Sometimes it's going to strike a nerve because I think we're so coddled and I'm working right now in a project with a bunch of people who are like encouraging each other to join an online world and I don't think it's right for everybody, you know, and I... I think it's okay to ask people why they're doing it. And when I ask those people why, they don't know. And it's uncomfortable. And instead of just... People say, oh, but why don't you encourage them more? I thought the whole... Because I'm also working on this Do More Cool Shit project. And I'm like, yeah, do more cool shit. But... but do it in a way that like serves you and like means something to you. And like, I'm not going to sugarcoat something for you. Maybe you're not good at this or maybe you're not ready or, or maybe you don't have the right why. And that's fine. And it's, it's going to be hard to hear it, but like, you need to hear it. And like cutting athletes. Oh my God. Like I've done that for years. And it's like, that's not comfortable, you know? And it's like, there's nothing wrong with not being, how do I like, had somebody said to me, like, really sat down with me and was like why do you want to be a computer engineer I probably would have never did it because like had somebody really told me like oh you're going to be solitary like I would have said like oh I want to be with people I want to be outside I want to have my time I wouldn't have just been sugar-coated and said like you're going to make a lot of money and you're good at computers and you're good at math why why does being good at something mean that's the thing you're going to do I hate that.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. No, I love that, Sean. I think there's a, there's such, there's a few really good nuggets that stuck out for me as you're sharing here. You know, one, I think you mentioned is you just, you just held up the mirror by doing the life map exercise. And I think that sometimes, you know, as leaders, we think we should have the answer for our teams, but it's like, I don't want the answer for you. I just, I'm going to hold up the mirror here so that you see it and ask you the right questions. And I'm going to say, tell me more. I'm going to dig Tell me more. Tell me more. Let's dig. Why isn't this working for you? Why isn't this working for the team? What's wrong here? And really unpacking that. And then you get to a breakthrough. And what really hit me here, I was taking notes and I was like, the best feedback I've ever gotten was extremely uncomfortable. And the best feedback I've ever given was extremely uncomfortable. If it's not making us uncomfortable, it's probably not that great of feedback. Like it's still, sometimes you need it, little bits here and there to sprinkle, you know, just get around. But the good stuff, the stuff that was transformational was uncomfortable. And that is powerful. And becoming comfortable with that uncomfortability. You probably will never get comfortable with that uncomfortability. But perhaps instead make it a sign of like, hey, I just gave good feedback because I was uncomfortable. I'm going to lean more into that because that's the right feeling. Instead of saying, oh, I'm going to avoid that feeling.
SPEAKER_01:And also sometimes it's just my opinion. I know cutting athletes. And I know there's athletes that have thought I've been unfair. and I'm like yeah maybe I'm wrong I don't know it's just it's my personal opinion and like that's what I think manager have to remember too is like I'm a person they're a person people are all messy we're not one dimensional like there's a lot of different layers maybe I don't see anything everything like I would like to think that I see and know all the things about all the people that I'm working with whether it's athletes or whether it's employees or but I don't know that I don't know I don't know why Jenny came in late three days last week like maybe she doesn't want to tell me that she's having a problem with her partner right like i i don't know but so like all i see is like how it's affecting work and it's like yeah but it's messier than that it's not easy right and it's like maybe she's a little bit more on edge that day and it's like
SPEAKER_00:yeah
SPEAKER_01:maybe i have to when i'm giving feedback think about that right and and maybe if she gets angry at me Maybe it has nothing to do with me giving feedback to her. That's also a reality. It's like, that's okay. It's okay. We're all people. We're all allowed to have emotions. And I don't pretend to know why everybody has the emotion and the reaction that they have. But I have to remind myself sometimes. I'm like, wow, she took that really bad. And I'm like, did I do something wrong? Or I really don't like the way she took that. And it's like, I have to stop myself and think, okay, wait. Maybe I have to ask another question. Or maybe we have to have another different conversation on a different day. When she's feeling better about the same thing. And so oftentimes I've found, especially with new or I want to say young, but not young in the way that like age wise, just younger in like stepping into the workplace. Yeah. often find like maybe they have their own personalities or their own like I think this is the way everything should be done and that's fine that's great I'm okay with that I was there too like I did that but it's like let's have more of these conversations and like when I hire someone young and I love hiring someone that has you know just the gung-ho to do whatever the heck they want like try stuff and I'm like I try to really encourage people to go ahead and just fail or to lean in. And I remember, this goes back, man, there's so many parallels here. A sports coach saying, if you don't lean in far enough when you're doing a pivot skate around a circle that you fall, then you're not leaning. You'll never know how far you can lean in. And I was like, oh, that's true. If I don't push myself far enough and like, let's try this thing right to the edge, And that edge is going to be different for everybody. Then you don't know where the edge is. And I think that's hard with feedback. It's like... some athletes that i had and some employees that i have want really direct feedback so i try to remember that and some people want it in a written form some people want it in a sandwich form right where it's like give me the good give me the bad give me the good but i remember as like and all you have to do as a manager is think about how you like feedback like how do i like getting feedback i don't like feedback i i just want to hear the truth like i just for me i'm like don't sugarcoat anything. I don't need to hear that I did a good job last quarter. Just tell me what I'm doing now. But that's my personality. There's, I don't know, a million different personalities out on this planet. Sometimes they're going to clash. How do you give feedback even? Do you have any other method other than one? I find a lot of managers that really suck at giving feedback. have one method of giving feedback. And it's like, well, that's not going to work if you have 30 employees because 30 employees don't hear that feedback the same way.
SPEAKER_02:got to have more tools in your tool belt there and how to give feedback yeah and
SPEAKER_01:that's why you gotta hire Fahad
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:that's why you gotta hire Fahad to help you develop those tools
SPEAKER_02:that's it that's it it's good always be plugging right like
SPEAKER_01:but it's but it's true though and it's true because like you do have to like work on that yeah I don't I don't think anybody can not work on that right and I think oftentimes people get put in these positions like my favorite thing is having an athlete or having a young person come into my workplace and say what do you like to do and then they'll list off or what are you good at right and they'll list off all the things you're good at and I'll be like great today you're gonna do the total opposite just to see what it's like
SPEAKER_02:yeah
SPEAKER_01:you know how do you
SPEAKER_02:react when you're in a beginner mindset yeah how do you take feedback on things you have no idea what you're doing when you have no idea what you're
SPEAKER_01:doing yeah and like knowing those different parts and like I'll dive in a little bit deeper probably a little bit longer or a little bit later but there's like some very astute projects that I've worked on that have that ability or have that opportunity. And it's like, that's when you really see success and you really see growth.
SPEAKER_02:Well, let's go to one of your projects, John. You're working right now doing a significant amount of team development with some hospitals and long-term care facilities you've mentioned. And you're working with a lot of young managers who are leading for the first time and we're working through some challenges challenges there. What do you see as kind of some of these common patterns in regards to feedback, productive conflict for young and inexperienced managers in the teams that you're working
SPEAKER_01:with? they only have one style like that is like they they have only ever developed one style they know the way that they worked and i'm like yeah yeah but now you're taking a leadership role now you're taking a manager role like you were able to work like that for five years and be really good and that was probably fine but now you're the one in front of the room so it's like how do you manage how do you how are you going to reach every single team member and and you might not and also that's okay you know but like it's a try hard like you got to try hard to reach all those things. So I've been doing team development with different hospital groups and different long-term care facilities for probably seven or eight years now. And some of it's been continually ongoing. And it's been great. It's really interesting to watch how that's worked and progressed. And I really wanted to bring up this one exercise that because we talked a lot about feedback and we're talking about conflict management and there's long, long histories of people that are working together. Some people have been in that place or in those places for like 10, 20 years. And like they forget. So like number one thing I always do when I get in there is I ask them why they got into nursing or personal social work or whatever their field is. It's like, do you remember even why you got this job? And if you can get them to like, Connect with that again that brings a little bit of humanity and and then and then I do this exercise with with this group or with these groups that I When we're trying to give feedback and we're trying to give information So one of the exercise that I love is peanut butter and jelly sandwich, so I walk in there's probably like 20 or 30 people in a room at a time and I might do this exercise probably five times a day and with different cohorts of people coming in and out. And I sit there in the front and I say, okay, you're now all the managers and I'm a newbie on the floor. I need you to tell me how to make a peanut butter sandwich. Please, in detail, write out the instructions from one till however many steps you think. So they take time and they write out their little steps and then throughout the day I'll periodically say, okay, Janet, can you tell me how to make a peanut butter sandwich? And she'll say, take the peanut butter and put it on the bread. Okay, so I take the peanut butter and I physically put it on this stack of bread.
SPEAKER_00:And she goes,
SPEAKER_01:yeah, I just put the whole jar on the closed bag of bread. Yeah, on the sleeve of bread. And she goes, well, that's not what I meant. I said, that's exactly what you said, isn't it? And she's like, okay, yeah, I didn't know you were an idiot, right? And like, that's the response we get, right? And it's like, okay, but I'm trying to learn. I don't know anything. Pretend like I don't know anything, right? So it's like, okay, open up the bread. you know and like take a slice out so i just take the first slice which is clearly not the way to make a perfect peanut butter jam because it's got the crust on the end and she's like not that piece we're gonna put that piece but it becomes really funny for for people because i i tell them like you you can jump in you can help your peers right And they'll say like, take a scoop of peanut butter. Well, what do you think I do? Put my hand in there.
SPEAKER_00:And
SPEAKER_01:they're like,
SPEAKER_00:no,
SPEAKER_01:no, I did it with a knife. I didn't say with a knife. So then I'll, okay, grab the knife. So now I've got a knife in my hand full of peanut butter in my hand and a knife. And they're like, no, wash your hands. I was like, nobody told me that. And it's just like, it's really, really hard for people To give... the proper, clear feedback instructions to get in my mindset. Like, and that's what I'm trying to prove to them is like, I don't think anybody's going to do the job like this, but like we're in a hospital and we're in, we're in a facility where there are real consequences to this. I said, thank God, you know, at the end of the day, there ends up being like 15 peanut butter sandwiches and there's peanut butter everywhere and honey all over the place. And like, I'm a mess and the table's a mess. And like, you do this
SPEAKER_02:several times.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. I do that throughout the day. Yeah. It just gets messier and messier.
SPEAKER_02:Do people get better and better at it, at least?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah. So that's the hope, right? Is that people will change how they're going to communicate with me. And what's very interesting is sometimes people only have four steps written down. Because I always get them written down. But then the person beside them can have 15 steps. And it's like, I've given you the same task twice. and you have given me vastly different set of instructions and that's what like feedback and where conflict is going to come because it's like well she takes too long or he doesn't explain it enough and it's like okay great so let's do that with a peanut butter sandwich as opposed to an employee or to like a patient you know let's have that conflict and hear about a stupid peanut butter sandwich as opposed to like oh like real world problems where it's like because then we translate this into how do we um prepare a patient to be toileted
SPEAKER_00:and it's
SPEAKER_01:like everybody and like the person who's been there for 30 years probably only writes down three steps because they have it all in their head and they've been doing it for 30 years whereas like the person who is maybe brand new might have 20 steps because they read it in the book and they have like jotted it down and it's like The person who's been there for 30 years is like, holy shit, Janet takes 20 minutes to toilet a person. That should only take five minutes. I'm like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then like, you know, a week later, two weeks later, you're throwing that phone all over the place. It's in the bottom of your bag. It's underneath the seat of your car. You don't even know where it is half the time. And you're like, you've already forgot what it was like to have that brand new moment. Right. And I think that's where like lots of conflicts happen and lots of, you know, feedback loops happen where you're just like, oh, God, like. can we remember that and it's tricky because that's my that's that's my hardest part is like trying to remember what it was like when you were younger or trying to remember when it's the first day on the job or trying like that's why that's why now i say what did you see what did you hear you know And it's like, oh, you saw it that way. Oh, yeah, no, it doesn't actually mean that. Even though you're reading it that way, it actually means this. And that's where we get to have this conversation and this flow. And I'm like... you know so when you say take a piece of bread out what you actually meant was take a slice from the middle a little bit we don't want like those are all the little micro steps that you forgot to say because you've made a peanut butter and jam sandwich for your whole life
SPEAKER_00:yeah yeah yeah yeah exactly exactly
SPEAKER_02:oh I love that that's such a good exercise that's a really good takeaway well maybe I mean Sean you're full of activities and exercises you know for our folks that are listening you know what is maybe an exercise that they can do with their team to try and improve their feedback and and their candor you know like if there's a manager listening to this and it's like okay i don't know if i want to do the peanut
SPEAKER_01:butter you mean they don't want to yeah you don't want to get messy with peanut butter and yeah i was like do that man pull it pull it pull it no but like no there are other ones um a really good one that's really simple and easy actually is to put a pen and a paper in your employee's hand and to say come up here and and explain to me how to uh go from this facility whatever like go from my office to the grocery store and just draw like tell me how to draw that path and like the amount of feedback that and like you could do that with every single one of your employees and they're going to explain it totally different and by the end and I have some of these maps I wish I had them handy but I have some of the maps that are like from the facility to a grocery store where everybody knows and it's like oh my God, when you look at those maps and how someone explained something and how somebody drew it, that tells you a lot. And people also, the best part about that is when everybody holds up the map and then you say, do you think you did a good job? And oftentimes people are like, I did an amazing job. And I'm like, look at the maps. It sucked. It's like none of the maps... If you did a really good job, it's very, very clear. If you did a really, really good job, all the maps should look like Google Maps or Apple Maps or whatever. It should all look the same. If you did an impeccable job, it should all look the same. And they don't. This one looks like, where's that taking me? And they forget... little minute details but that's something easy that you can do really quickly in a team meeting five minutes even quicker get people to even quicker if you want a quick one Monday morning meeting pull everybody in get everybody a sheet of paper and a pen and get them to draw a Christmas tree or a tree just a tree just draw a tree and everybody's going to draw a tree and they're all going to draw don't look at each other's paper you know whatever okay great show me the trees They're going to hold up the tree and all the trees are going to look different. And it's like, that's the, you're now just as a memory. Remember, these are all the different trees that people saw when you said the word tree. You said one word, you said tree and they saw 50 different trees.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. You know, and probably none of those trees are exactly the same. And it's like, okay, those, you have to deal with all those different people.
SPEAKER_02:and how they see things. And I think you, I think you, you know, you said this earlier on, but, and we emphasize it so much, but it's so true. Like our leadership approach has to be personalized to each individual. And so is our feedback approach and our conflict approach. Like how do, how do we have good candor with each other? It's going to depend on how Sean likes feedback, Sean's personality, how many years Sean's been on the job, right? Like it's going to depend on what kind of feedback he wants. Right. And, and how much, how granular the feedback is. You know, what's, it's interesting is that I often didn't hear from a lot of the high-performing teams we work with, and they'll say, we don't get enough feedback. I wish we got more feedback. It's not even that I'm getting too much and it's hurting my feelings. I don't even know how I'm doing. I don't even know how well we're doing. That
SPEAKER_01:happens a lot, I think. Actually, that just struck something. I really have to share this one. I'm working at a vet clinic. It's a big vet clinic. There's tons of people. There's four doctors and a hundred different nurses and whatever. They all serve of all the doctors well all the doctors obviously have different ways of doing things so I go to this place and there's there's a lot of conflict in this place and and I said okay great like and I started asking people like what what would help or what what have you guys doing I'm like what do you guys talk about when you have meetings and they're like oh we don't have meetings I'm like, what do you mean you don't have meetings? And they were like, well, we don't have team meetings anymore. I was like, well, okay, explain to me why you don't have them anymore. You used to have them. Why don't you have them anymore? And they were like, oh, well, we don't have them anymore because people used to get upset and cry. So now we just don't have them. And I'm like... oh cool so now we just don't have emotion here like so what do you think like what do you think happens now you think people are just happy like you know it's like oh if we don't if we don't have a meeting then it's fine we just don't look at it it's fine yeah and they're happy right they're happy and I'm like no they're not happy like they're not happy and they're not telling you that and and you've squashed that idea of like even allowing people to have a feeling and I like I That's the thing. I think like, I don't know, we get into this cold world of like, I don't know, business is business in the bottom line. And it's like, fuck, like, can't, can we not just remember that we are humans? Like, you know, and I've said that enough times in this podcast, but it's like, we're all humans. Like, who knows what that person's going through? You know? And there's like, I have a million more stories about all that kind of stuff where it's like, it's impacted. And all I had to do was hold up a mirror in front of somebody and just say, hey, I know your manager yelled at you the other day. what do you think that person might be going through? And they're like, well, I don't give a shit. And I'm like, no, but you should. And it is a tricky balance because you do want to come to work and you want to be professional. But yeah, you're going to be affected somehow. The world is going to affect you. And it's like, I get that you want to bury some of that and leave it at the door, right? Yeah. But it's like, yeah, but you can't always do that. Sometimes it's going to get there and it's like, okay, Fahad's having a pissy day today because something happened in the real world and he's just upset. He's not upset at me. I don't have to take things personally. I think
SPEAKER_02:that's so powerful. I mean, giving people the benefit of the doubt. I say believe in the inherent goodness of people that No, Sean's a good person. He's just having a tough day, right? Like it's inherently trust and believe and give them that benefit. I think that's so powerful. Yeah, I think you said it. We can't separate professional and personal. Even in a remote world, we're all working from home. So you're at your home working. So what are we separating really, right? Yeah, I think that's good. Now, Sean, for one of our last bits here, you've got a good scene. You've got a good saying. You've got a good question that you ask yourself often when giving feedback or when deciding if you're going to give feedback. I'm going to let you share that question and maybe walk us through some of the thinking that goes with it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. I mean, work, life, it's all very serious stuff. Or we like to think it's very serious stuff. And I like to think, like, we've made all this shit up. Like, everything we've done, everything, all the stress, we've made all this up. I mean, there was a time in our world when we used to just, like, you know, roam the land and, like, fight elephants. You know,
SPEAKER_02:fight food. I don't know if we fought elephants, but...
SPEAKER_01:Just fight
SPEAKER_02:food.
SPEAKER_01:Well, you know, to get the food. You know, we had to fight things. We had to fight something. I don't know if we fought elephants. I mean, there's, you know, I'm pretty sure there's caveman drawings or something. Like, but you know we had to find food you know and then we made all this stuff up and we made ourselves really comfortable and and this whole idea of like you know when conflict is happening and i think we we take it to an extreme or like you know and it's like my question has always been and i i've always said this is like okay that person did this and i wouldn't have done it that way i used to get really upset about that kind of stuff and then i was like you know what as a leader I have to ask myself, is anybody going to die because that happened? And it's like, that's the thing is like, is anybody going to die? So if the answer is no, because I'm not a doctor, you know, do I have to come? Do I have to rain down the arches of hell upon this person for doing something that, you know, did they try something? Did they die? Did they express an emotion? I don't know. Can I put that into perspective? Can I put all of the things that we're doing into perspective and really respect that person as a human being? And it's like, if I can do that, then okay, cool. Now we can have some fun and we can learn and we can grow. Because now people aren't afraid to make mistakes. And it's funny, and I think you've seen this before, but A long time ago, I had a young student that worked for me, and she was awesome. I loved her. And we worked together so well. but we always had this like hilarious camaraderie and almost every day I fired her you know as a joke for something not like nonsensical right and at the end of our time together she came to me and she was like Sean I made you something I think it's funny I think you'll find it funny I hope you don't take a personal it's just a little joke I did it she's a graphic designer and I was like Maddie would you please just show me the content thing you made and she flips it around and she's like teeing and giggling and she like turns it and it's a it's a logo it's an image of my face with just my beard my hair and stuff and underneath it it says pleasantly mean and i thought that was absolutely hilarious because i'm like yeah i and and this word mean or this word like direct is because i'm direct have you like anybody that's listening have you ever watched a panel or listened to a panel about anything it doesn't matter what the panel's about i hate sitting at a panel presentation whenever he goes oh yes i do see your point and i think that's great but then this and i'm like where's the passion where's the energy I love having like I said at the very beginning like I was bringing it right right right round circle like I love having passion I'm like man if you're just gonna agree with me like I'm gonna fire you like I don't want you here it's like I need you to have thoughts and opinions and ideas I'm like I think the best managers are know or believe that their team is awesome and believes that their team has great ideas and it's not always gonna match up. And if that's what you want as a manager, you're not gonna be a good manager. You're not gonna be a good leader. If you just want everybody to agree with you, then it's gonna suck because you're gonna have a lot of conflict and people are gonna be really mad. Or you're gonna have a very mediocre service or practice or whatever because you're never gonna push forward. you know I love having a disagreement and it's like can we not learn to have disagreements and realize that no one's gonna die you know because we've had these disagreements you know so I don't know that's I think that's so important and I think it's really important for people to remember that that's like we're all dealing with humans can we be kind and can we be honest and like honest I think sometimes it's seen as mean but But you can be kind and honest. There is a way to do it. There is a way to give feedback without being blunt and rude. I don't think I've ever had anybody... I mean, you'll have to do the research, but I don't think anybody's ever worked for me that's left working with me and been really mad. I don't know of anybody. I talk to almost everybody that's ever ventured on and... I think for the most part, it's been a great experience to just learn and grow together. And what else are we doing on this planet?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. You know, I really love how you've, you know, how... It goes from engaging in productive conflict and feedback to fostering that in our team to it is a method for coaching and learning and growing, right? And I think that connection that you've made between those ideas, ultimately that's what you do as a coach is you make people grow and learn by uncomfortable breakthrough moments of feedback and intention that helps that get to the next stage. And I bet tons of people that work for you, maybe at the time, at the time would have felt like, oh my God, I don't, alright Sean or I'm frustrated about this but then see it right or kind of take it in and like oh yeah I get where he's coming from or where I'm learning and that directness is so powerful.
SPEAKER_01:But I know a lot of them were like just tell me the answer right and I was like no I don't want to tell you the answer and I think that happens a lot with athletes especially and especially younger athletes it's like give me the playbook I'm like I'm not going to give you the playbook because I can't control the exes that are out there like I don't know you're the and they're the exes. I don't know what the exes are going to do. You know, I have a good idea and I can show you lots of things, but I want you to think. And it's like, I want, I'm going to challenge you. I'm going to challenge you. And I remember having athletes and we, you kind of brushed on this actually earlier, but it was like athletes would come to the door with a problem and it could have been a problem internally with the team. It could be a problem with something that they've done on the field, whatever. And I would say, have you thought about it yet? Like, what's your solution? And if they said no, then I'm like, good, get out. You're not welcome here if you haven't thought about it. And I do the same thing with people on my teams. I do the same thing with anybody that I'm working with. It's like, okay, you're coming to me with a problem. I'm not the grandmaster of all knowing things, even though some people in my life would say I probably assume I am. But it's like, have you thought about the solution? Have you put any energy into thinking about a solution? And if they just say no then I'm like great get it like go go get it that's the thing you have to do first like if you have a conflict with somebody you have to think about what you can do not what they can do or or not what the manager can solve for you right it's like I think managers I think we're power hungry I think leaders power hungry managers are power hungry coaches are power hungry we're all we're all power hungry right we all want that power and like oh I know the answer and I'm gonna tell you how to
SPEAKER_00:do it
SPEAKER_01:I'm like maybe I do have the answer but what's the what's the value in that what's the value of with me telling you how to solve the problem that you came with. And I'm like, wouldn't it be much better if I could just hold up a mirror like we've been saying and say, well, what do you think? And what do you think is such a powerful statement, even
SPEAKER_00:though it's such a- So simple, but
SPEAKER_01:so, yeah. And I think a lot of people think that's weak. And I think they think, oh, that's not, you don't know the answer. And it's like, no, no, it's not that I don't know the answer or not that I have an answer. But I want you to think about it. And I think people really think that's weak. And I know that has happened for sure. In some of the coaching settings I've done with teams, because they'll say to me like, Oh, we can't say anything to the manager because they don't know. They always just put it back on us. And I'm like, well and then do you think about it you know and i think managers are afraid to do that because it's that fine balance between like i have to be the boss and yeah i have to know i'm yeah i have to know i'm expected to know yeah yeah and it's like you you do have to have that fine line um but i don't think there's anything wrong with like fostering that culture of like hey we're all thinking here like i just have the title you know but we can all be thinkers
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we'd all be thinkers. And I think if we can tie it back into your initial story as a 15-year-old wanting to use the field, I think it's about giving agency to each member of our team so that they can be the thinking athlete, so that they can have the voice, so that they can engage and debate and discuss. And that ultimately makes our teams better. Well, Sean, this has been fun. I always love our conversations And you've had so much to share, such good nuggets. Tons of clips for us, I'm sure, to share. But thank you so much. I don't know if you've got any last thoughts, any last messages to our listeners. But it is always a pleasure and always an honor to have you here with us.
SPEAKER_01:yeah no it was great I really appreciate the time that we've spent together over the years and this is super fun and it's like yeah my only last message just I want to re-hit over the head is like be kind and be honest you know be kind and be honest that's like I can't say that enough but especially so I thanks so much for having me and I look forward to hearing all the other episodes
SPEAKER_02:thanks Sean remember be kind and be honest and thank you Sean for being on our podcast I mean it's kind of a fun full circle moment, Sean also helps produce our podcast and has been helping us bring this to life. And he joined us as a guest to be able to share his wisdom because I've learned so much from Sean. You know, one of the things that we didn't really talk about on this episode that I learned from Sean really is his, I say his ready, fire, aim philosophy, right? It's ready, fire, aim, which means take the shot before you spend so much time trying to aim at it. Just get things out there. And I think with a lot of the skills that we're learning throughout these podcasts, I would say that same philosophy, ready, fire, aim, which is to try the skill out, try the difficult conversation, try the drafting vision and values, try to improve recruitment. without trying to overthink it. How can we take some of the lessons that we're learning here and try them right away? And I think if we do that, what happens is that we can then calibrate afterwards. And so the aiming comes after you've taken your first few shots. And I think it's actually true when you play sports, right? Play soccer, play hockey, play basketball. You just go up there and you take your shot. And based on how that first shot went, you then adjust and then you adjust and then you get a feel for it. And you're like, oh, okay, I'm finding my rhythm from this spot. And so I think a lot more times we've got to take that shot and I know that's a personal life lesson I've learned from Sean over the years thank you each and every one of you that are listening that have been supporters of our Unicorn Leadership Podcast if you've got any questions and you've listened all the way then please feel free to message us you can find us on any of our social medias you can find me Fahad Al-Hattab or you can email me directly at fahad at unicornlabs.ca that's it for today thank you so much for tuning into our Unicorn Leadership Podcast episode You can find the show notes and transcripts at unicornlabs.ca slash podcast. Be sure to rate, to review, to subscribe, tell a few friends. And I will leave you with this question to think about. What peanut butter sandwich moment have you had? When is the last time you've, how do you make your peanut butter sandwiches? But in more of its analogy, when have you given instructions to individuals and team members where they can make their peanut butter sandwiches? there was such a gap that you were surprised by the gap and the knowledge that you were surprised by how your communication led to a completely different way and a completely different answer. What peanut butter sandwich moments have you had to reflect on? Thank you. And we will talk to you soon.