Ep. 35 - Surviving Long Enough to Win with Chris Grimes

In this episode, Fahd sits down with Chris Grimes, founder and CEO of Fundmore, to explore his journey from 20-year mortgage industry veteran to building one of Canada's fastest-growing fintech companies. Chris shares how firsthand frustration with a slow, paperwork-heavy mortgage system led him to walk away from a secure career and take on the entrenched Goliaths of banking and lending as a small, scrappy David.

From bootstrapping through survival mode and pivoting during COVID to winning the trust of massive legacy institutions one customer at a time, Chris discusses what it really takes for a David to survive long enough to break into a highly regulated industry. He also shares insights on leadership, learning to lead through people instead of as an individual contributor, and how naivety, nimbleness, and sheer persistence can let a small company punch far above its weight.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I've said this before. If I knew what I knew today, would I be here today? Probably not, because I'm not sure I would have done it. We were told there was no more money coming. The second half of the investment wouldn't come. And it put us into a really difficult position. We're 90 days from running out of cash. But I'm also glad I didn't know what I was getting into. If I had this in a book, I could read it. I'm like, there's no chance. Only idiots do that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Hello and welcome back to the Unicorn Leaders Podcast. My name is Fod Altab, and I am here today with a guest that didn't necessarily start in tech. He started in the trenches of Canada's mortgage system. Watching deals. That should have closed days, drag on for weeks, buried in paperwork. Chris. Chris Grimes. Chris, I've been lucky to get to know you over the last few years. We've been doing some work together here. We met through Invest Ottawa's network, and we've been able to really watch and see this company of yours fund more AI, an AI AI-powered platform, build you know how you can modernize, modernize lenders, approve loans faster, automate the underwriting process, and help mortgage teams make faster, smarter, and more consistent decisions. What's cool is that we've seen that this is a story of resilience. This is a standard story of David versus Goliath, of a small tech company out of Ottawa trying to make its way into these entrenched giants of the mortgage industries, these banking industries that are these Goliaths that have existed for so long and are archaic in many ways. And you've had to win their trust to build from the inside. And uh you've had to bootstrap for a while to survive and survive long enough to be one of the you know fastest growing fintechs now. I believe you've you've uh really you've gotten that award recently. So in this in this conversation, we're gonna unpack, you know, why you walked away from uh the the previous career to build something entirely new. What was that, what was that conviction that you had, and how was the fear in it all? Um, you know, how funmore's team has pivoted during COVID when you've had to reinvent the business several times, a business model, and this culture of survival. Because I believe that there's this adaptability and survival culture that Funmore has that is a key characteristic of these Davids that we we find um across industry. The breakthrough partnerships that really transformed reputation. I think there's a few stories around how you've really brought in some customers as real partners, and that has able to really uh allow you to break into the industry. And then your leadership mindset. You've built the team, you've had to rebuild the team, you're leading this, and I want to understand the scrappiness, the humbleness, and relentlessly customer focused piece, and how you've you know dove into this. So, this is the this is the story that I want to get into with Chris. And Chris, we're lucky to have you. So say hi to our guests. Thanks for being here today in this in this cold Ottawa morning.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

Yeah, and thank you for having me. It's uh it's it's certainly been uh an interesting journey to get you know to January, whatever day it is today, and um still be sitting here five, going on six years, I guess, in this journey. And I guess you could actually argue probably eight in some ways, when I think back to kind of putting down the uh or taking off the mortgage broker hat and deciding to kind of venture into a new world. Um it certainly wasn't technology at the time, but uh that's where I am today.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

So yeah, but again, so you spent 20 years in the mortgage industry before fundmore. That's sort of the what I what I gathered from our research online, so you can correct that if it's wrong. And and but take us back to the moment that you decided to leave that the security, that that sort of successful mortgage career to to build a startup. This was sort of new for you. It's a pretty big leap. What was the problem that you saw that pushed you to take the leap? What was the conviction that you that you had? And and you know, what was that decision making like? Uh and how did you overcome some of those fears? Like take me back to that those moments.

SPEAKER_00 4:12

Yeah, so I you're yeah, you're right. I've been in the mortgage industry. I think my I funded my first deal in like 2003. Um and so that I've been around uh the mortgage space for a long time. Um, worked at some of the banks in that space too. So that's sort of where I really got my feet wet into it. Um always found that that's in itself a an interesting story, but maybe for another time how I actually got into mortgages, but it wasn't intentional, it happened. Um, like most things I would say in my life, most things have just sort of been in some ways or another hap happenstance where I decided to keep following the path, whether it's right or wrong. Um and you know, when I when so I'd been in the mortgage industry, um ran a couple mortgage brokerages, and uh it was around I I won't go into the full detail, but there was a time when I was I'd sort of I was sort of adjacent to the mortgage industry running a different company, um, a company called Nearly Home in the rent-to-owned space. And um it was we'll say that was an interesting business. Um, some successes, some challenges. Um and it was uh after after six years of grinding through that business where you know I ended up taking a year off of what I call um like a life sabbatical.

unknown 5:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:36

And uh my you know, after about a year of that, my wife said, maybe it's time to go back to work. And so I got back to what I knew, which was coming back to mortgages. And um and so I I was I was maybe surprised, but probably not, that not a whole lot had changed, even though I was, like I said, I was sort of adjacent to it and I was working in this uh around it. I wasn't really finding a lot of loans at that time. And um when I got back to the other side of it and really dove into the mortgage space, I was shocked that you know nothing had changed. And yet on the peripheral, and what we saw was that there was a lot of what I thought was evolving technology and um things that probably should have made the job easier for both the Canadian or you know, wanting to buy a home, um, the the people in between that are doing the the job to actually get that loan funded and processed. And there's countless people in that process from you know the first person you engage with to the very last person that's you know registering on title of your, you know, uh because it's it's a very manual process to do that too. That entire um entire thing um takes a lot of time and a lot of people are involved. And and what I learned was that there really wasn't any technology to support um an evolved process or a faster process. It it didn't make me want to get into technology though. Um, you know what, but but I did believe that you could probably at least enhance the way a borrower would engage with a financial institution. And that was sort of version one, I'll say, of what wasn't called FunMore, but of FunMore. And this was you know, through 2017 into 2018, we decided, look, we could probably build out a digital mortgage bank. And um, we started the journey by uh hiring some people in a call in a in a mini call center, which you know, some would probably maybe argue was more of a sweatshop because it was literally over top of a factory that were making closet in the basement. But anyways, and uh we would we would generate leads online, we would call these customers, help them find mortgage mortgage solutions, pretty much brokering, but brokering um and lending at the same time. And then, you know, with a vision to slowly start transitioning this into a full mortgage lender. Well, where where this story probably changes or does change is you know we really had to then look at what technology existed for for the back office. And you know, we'd had some tools that supported the engagement process. And at that time, we had brought in tools from the UK, the US, and Australia to support that um upfront uh process with the borrowers. And then when we turned to the back office, so this is where the underwriters and the fulfillment teams and people that are doing the dirty work that you know the average person would never know, but always gets frustrated at because why does it take so long to get an approval when you've gone to your bank rep or you've gone to your mortgage broker and you've given them all this information? It goes into this back office, which is sort of like this black hole because it's not a transparent process. Nobody knows what's happening back there, but it's critical because they're the ones who are making the actual decision, they're the ones who are holding you know those keys, those virtual keys to your door, you know, in their hands effectively, um, for you to be able to buy that home. And they're running on technology that's 30 years old. And there was nothing out there to really support a modern journey to support it. And and so, you know, the where we're and I'll say again, this is not what triggered, none of this actually triggered me wanting to go build a technology company. It was uh I was still pretty you know headstrong on thinking that you could build out a digital mortgage bank. Um and and so you know what we decided to do is well, could you parse pieces together? Because there were little bits of you know, some maybe automation in between. And again, we brought in two or three more pieces. But the part that actually you know made the pivot was understanding that there's no money in this game. You know, and it it sounds crazy, but you know, the average mortgage lender in in Canada on a regular five-year mortgage that Canadians gonna walk into are lucky to break even. Like that is that's the target for a bank to break even on on the origination.

SPEAKER_02 10:22

Really?

SPEAKER_00 10:23

And you know, that's probably and and it's like I said, I worked at banks, frontside, backside, I worked in the broker space. I never really truly understood how little margin it is because most mortgage lenders they have to throw so many people at the problem to get this thing processed that their their goal is to actually break even and retain the asset. Because they'll make money on the asset in the future, but on the origination itself, there's very little margin in it. And and so we're sitting back and realizing, okay, for every every mortgage we bring in, an underwriter has a capacity to really underwrite four loans. That is your break-even point. It didn't matter. If you and if you were to give them a fifth, you get zero output on a monthly basis. And and and or and so they because they can only hold four at a time, and it typically takes about a three to four weeks to actually go through the entire adjudication process, you're really you're really stuck. And uh there's a lot of complexity, and there's a I mean, uh, if anyone's gone through the mortgage process, you know, you're aware of the thousands of documents that that a lender will ask you for, which seems like 12 times in a row, not once.

SPEAKER_01 11:39

And um, I remember I remember I remember giving them a Google folder saying it's all here. Can you just can you go get it? Because it's the same file you've asked for me. I don't know why you guys don't have it.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

I remember the specific because you're gonna look at it and say, Well, I only gave you 2015, 2016, and 2017. Where's the previous three years of the you know the next three years or whatever it happens to be? Or, you know, this one's dated, you know, 29 days instead of 28 days. And there's all this, and I mean, look, it's it's uh Canada's done really well in the mortgage, you know, it in housing, and it's it's a major driving you know sector of our economy and has been for a long time. And a lot of that has to do with the fact that it's a very regulated but secure process and and you know allows um, I think the the safety and the security for Canadians to know that their home values for the most part aren't going anywhere, even with these sort of ups and downs that we're kind of feeling right now. But yeah, um, yeah, anyways, getting back to this story. So I'm so we're we're we're going through this process and and when we you know when the light bulb went on in sort of the end of 2018, so we're a solid full year, or I guess sorry, end of 2019. So we're about almost a year and a half into this journey that thinking we could build out this digital mortgage lender, we're like, okay, well, the only way we're gonna do this now is if we figure out how we could build some technology for ourselves. Again, I'm not intending to sell anything. And that again, I was naive in understanding what that meant was you know, building out back office technology. You know, there was a reason why nobody does this. And certainly nobody does this as a small little fintech. I mean, there's examples where some some more modern solutions have done this, you know, very heavily backed by PE or or um or or you know, some like a good example is a company in the US called uh uh Vesta, so doing some really cool stuff in the same sort of space we're in today. Um they came out of a previously successful um mortgage technology business, which really focused on the front end. And so this is where most of the energy and effort had been was this sales engagement process, right? These tools that allowed, or I would say, that felt like you as a borrower or you as a salesperson engaging with the borrower um made it a simpler process. Again, I'll reference the fact that nobody makes money on this because the technology in the back office is broken and it still takes you four to eight weeks to fund these things. Um, and so you know, you you had these group of people that came out of that company and created this new company called Vesta. On the success of their previous company, they were heavily invested in by um by a uh a huge um Valley uh BC. And so they they came out of the gates with like 30 or 40 million dollars US in their in their pocket to build out this type of technology. And I would imagine I haven't really paid attention recently, but I would imagine if they haven't raised another round, they will be very shortly, just because what we've learned in the last five years is that it's almost impossible to execute this without real financial backing. Um there was uh you know another company in Canada that also tried to go down this path. Um and unfortunately, you know, unfortunately, I think for the Canadian market, um you know, ran basically ran out of capital, had to unfortunately for one of the banks because they were able to acquire it and bring it in as an in-house solution. But the story there was um, you know, they that that that I'm just kind of referencing is that it's this technology ended up costing way more money than any of us ever envisioned. So we were out in we're out in market. Sorry, weren't in market, we're trying to build a solution for ourselves. And you know, quickly realized that, holy geez, first of all, this Canadian mortgage market is much bigger than we thought. All of a sudden, now you have, you know, we have these three sort of groups. We have this, what we you know we kind of refer to as this long tail. Probably in the average Canadian wouldn't even know this exists, but there's thousands of these lenders which operate from like a mom and pop, you know, individual lenders to more formally somewhat regulated lenders in this private lending space that you know probably represent today around 6% of the mortgage industry. And there's lots of them. And then you have this sort of mid-market, and this is again a bunch of names that I think if I were to knock on my neighbors' doors, one and three might know, might know if I listed the entire list of these 40 lenders, might recognize the name. And then you know, the names that everyone will recognize today, you know, you walk down Bay Street, the RBCs, TDs, C I B Click that, um, sort of on the on the other end. That sort of represents the Canadian market space. And then we had to realize we had to decide, well, oh, well, which one of these spaces are we actually trying to build into? Because I think at first we were thinking we would operate in the sort of mid-market, lower end, you know, sort of a niche kind of lending product for there. Um and uh quickly realized that building a software for that space was probably more complicated and more expensive than than we thought.

SPEAKER_01 17:18

Um for a customer that can afford less.

SPEAKER_00 17:23

Yeah, for sure. And and like I said, we weren't looking to sell this to anyone. We were trying to build this for ourselves. Um, but you know, then so then we had to go out to market and and try to raise capital for this mortgage lender, which is what we tried to do. Um craziest thing I ever put on a deck with a dinosaur dinosaur, and not sure how the hell that ever happened, but it did. Um, anyways, sorry for another.

SPEAKER_01 17:50

But you're your initial so you're initially still raising capital on this digital mortgage lender idea. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and at this point, you hadn't actually given out any mortgage on that. It was you're just building the infrastructure. You were still building the back office, you were still building like had you actually processed any customers.

SPEAKER_00 18:11

We were we were processing, yeah. Throughout that year and a half, we were processing loans. You know, this is where I learned that you could only do four at a time.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Um, so we were basically breaking even more or less. Um, you know, losing, I mean, there's costs to originate and everything else. So you know, depending on the month, some months were good, some months were bad. Um, you know, on the whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

And your insight here was if I can increase the capacity of an individual underwriter, I could be more profitable. So really with a draw, uh a drive to sort of increase the profitability of this new business that you'd started, this mortgage, uh digital mortgage lender.

unknown 18:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Yeah, that's really the that's really the genesis of all of this. I really believe that you know, if you could get to a point where you could double it, all of a sudden this is a huge margin game, and you still get the asset, which is what all these banks are trying to accomplish. Right? Hold the asset because the asset retains value, and you can renew the mortgage and you can get new sell new services, everything else that goes along with that today. Uh, but it really, you know, that that was the thought process. And so, you know, we we uh yeah, that's what we started doing. We we brought in um um a CTO at the time uh to help us, you know, reinvision a mortgage loan origination software. And um interesting story there. He um was working with my co-founder in in all of this in a previous business and um based in Romania, but happened to be on a mini Canadian tour with his wife and um sort of the circumstances aligned that I was able to uh meet with him here and in once in Montreal and you know, a couple of dinners and cocktails later, and you know, he's he's excited for what modernizing mortgage lending could be as as you know as exciting as that can be. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But you know, there is there again, we you know, thinking about about that process, and you know, I the story I think I actually I can tell for how you would evolve the mortgage process from a from a lending perspective, I still think it's a hell of a lot sexier and exciting than the one that tell that I would tell if I'm selling a loan origination software. It's just you know, one's the plumbing and ones is the front-end kind of cool, exciting. You know, um imagine walking into your house, uh walking into an open house one day or you know, doing a virtual tour on online and clicking a button you go in the home the very next day. I mean that that you know, there's there's there's there's a way to execute that and and a way to sell that story to uh you know on the front end. And that was really what we were trying to think about. Was we're still thinking about the Canadian walking into home. How the hell are they gonna get their home the next day? Um, not thinking about all the back office challenges that would evolve and occur to actually execute that. And so that was the story I told uh Bogdan, and you know, he was quite excited, and his wife Christina seemed to nod and you know, I guess we're gonna go down this journey, and and she seemed to be you know excited for him and and about it, and that was it. So we were off and we were building um a technology stack for uh for our mortgage company. Um like I said, we'd raised a little bit of money and and uh we're we're this is now entering the pandemic, and of course, you know, twenty twenty happens and um it i it it was crazy time because we we at at the end of twenty 'cause that also was a was

SPEAKER_01 22:00

A housing frenzy, right? Like 2020 happens and it it you know disrupts a lot of things, but interest rates continue to drop and you know you get the lowest ever. So yeah, how does that uh where does that put you guys?

SPEAKER_00 22:14

Interest rate drops, governments flooding the market with cash, um, flooding not not just not just people. Uh when I say flooding the market with cash, they were making they they provide a ton of capital to financial institutions um to be able to lend. Um and so it it flooded the market with cash. And and when when that happened, coupled with lower interest rates, it just became a freeding, a feeding frenzy for houses. That's part of the issue we have now where homes sort of superinflated um during 20, 20, 21, and 22 was because of these couple of actions. But you know, it looking back at it, you know, what we decided to do was we're gonna need we need to pause the mortgage lending idea and concept. And so at the end of 2019, we basically closed down our call center because we were okay, we need to build this tech first and then come back with a new new idea, new branding, new everything else. And and and uh and so that was the goal. The goal was let's pause this, let's build out this solution, and then let's see what's and and you know the end we we estimated it would take us about a year, and then at the you know, end of 2020 or 21, we would you know come back. We had all the we had we knew what it we knew what it worked to get a mortgage in the door and to fund it, could we automate it now?

SPEAKER_01 23:41

Yeah. Um and so you know, unfortunately, you still weren't trying to sell the software, you still were just building it for yourself, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:51

Yeah. And uh, you know, unfortunately, that decision probably, although you know, we may have been out of business because we were trying to we needed a cash to build now. Um we we missed out on that frenzy you mentioned because we closed it at the wrong time. You know, if if we had made this decision four months later, we never would have closed it. Because between the deals we would have brokered and the deals we would have funded, we we would have been able to sustain that business as a completely um uh you know the the cash flow would have funded that business and we would have bootstrapped that whole thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:28

Um we chose not to be timing on that, right? Like that is that is just a roll of the dice. That's uh it was.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

I mean, who like there was no way of predicting anything like that would have happened um because the market in 20, you know, really 2016 through 2020, the beginning of 2020 wasn't strong. It wasn't a good housing market, it was just there. And I know I think part of that probably led into what happened in 2020 and 21, but um it uh yeah, so so we shut down we shut down the lending business. We were with the goal of re opening it up again or starting to build this technology, we're building out this team in Romania, which seemed exciting and cool and you know 8,000 miles away, but you know, some very talented developers that had worked with my co-founder. Um and uh and so we were off in building. Coming to the, you know, it came to the end of 2020. Um, and these guys were great. I mean, frankly, they worked for nothing for six months of that's of that six months. We really were capitally capital efficient. Um, they were still working full-time, so they were able to do this, but they were basically working two full-time jobs. Um, you know, we we gave them some some equity on the back of that. And and uh, you know, what we realized though, and this was sort of coming back to you know how maybe naive I was in in what we were actually building, was this was way more complex and complicated. That there's a reason why nobody had done this, and there's a reason why nothing existed in Mark in market that we could just go and buy um off the shelf that would actually you know help and solve our problems. That um there's four or five hundred features that have to be in a software like this. Wow, and so we're now looking and saying, well, what have we built? Okay, and so we went, and and being in the market for as long as I had, I picked up the phone and I started calling um some friends of mine, and you know, most of at the time were owners of these, like I mentioned, that sort of mom and pop small private lenders. And I said, What can you give me some feedback on this? And and you know, maybe, and again, it wasn't necessarily what they thought that we would sell it, but just kind of understanding how far away am I from one from from anything? And if we were to pivot our model a little bit, could we go into that side of this of the mortgage space? The response was probably maybe surprising or or exciting. Most people thought if something like that existed in market, they would be interested in buying it. And that was sort of a different statement, right? It was what do you mean you'd be interested in buying it? Because I think at that point we had MVP is a strong word, but we had something. Um and uh and so they you know, the the because we had this response, they said, well, you know, and one and one actually said could could I actually test it? And so I'm like, well, maybe. So I call I call my CTO and I'm like, so I have somebody that wants to buy this from us. He's like, What? Um and and you know, I I also probably learned at that moment that okay, well, what we were building is more of a prototype, not really a full, not really a product. This was probably maybe seven, eight months into this build, and uh, and and you know, needed a bit more work. Because I went back to this this friend of mine. I said, Look, um, can you give me another three months? That was sort of what the estimate was. And you know, and I'd let you play with it. He's like, Yeah, I mean, I've got nothing to lose. I'm using something else. So we spend the next three months, and you know, what we actually did was tore it down and rebuilt it because now we're building because now these guys are building for someone else.

SPEAKER_01 28:27

Yeah, yeah, building for internal, it's not internal tooling anymore.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Yeah, yeah, and and of course it's much longer than three months. A lot longer than three months. It took another eight months. So eight months later, we have this thing now that okay, supposedly would work. And so I go back to this guy, he's like, Well, he goes, I I I never heard from you. I thought you just gave up on this idea. I I actually just got this other software and put it in my system. I was like, oh no, no, fair enough. Damn, I guess, but fair enough. Um and and then we went to uh to um a couple of these other people that I'd spoken to in the past. I said, Well, I have this thing. Would you know, is this of interest to you? And uh one of it was the um a friend, someone I knew for a long time, uh actually owned her own technology company um in the similar space, but further downstream. So if like we're where we're focused today, it's very much in this of that entire journey where I talked about you know application, then you get into the the back office, the plumbing. Well, the plumbing is actually broken up into three big chunks. We're sort of the first of those three chunks. Um, and what she had was sort of the second of those three chunks without getting in a lot of technical detail, we'll stop there. Um and uh, you know, I was saying, you know, what what did she think about it? And was there a space for that maybe to connect? Because we would be replacing something she had, but hadn't really focused on, because her her real business was the the servicing part of these loans. And um and she was interested in in finding a way to do that. And so that was sort of our our first four way four foray into any of this because I now have this established business partner in industry selling successfully into one segment of this private lending market. And uh, and so then she was kind enough to introduce us to several of her clients and and um January of 21, um we get in front of uh a company out west and and they liked what they saw and said, Well, I'll take that. And so everything sort of changed in this moment because you know, even though we we we believed we were gonna build our own mortgage lender, um we we now have this partner out west that would like to resell us. And we have this lender now that's saying, I I want to buy that. And and it was it was well, I guess we're a tech uh technology company or or maybe not. I don't know what we are at this point, but I know we're probably pivoting away from the idea of building out a mortgage lender after uh two and a half, three years of thinking this is what we were gonna do. And that's why I said at the beginning of all this, you know, maybe it's eight years, maybe it's five years, because you know, it really wasn't until that inflection point where I had a customer saying, I'm gonna buy that from you. And oh, by the way, I'll actually sign a contract today, which is basically what happened, and you know, for for for this company to completely change. And so that was the that was the real inflection point for for how we got to become funmore. And you know, the you know, the company's still working with us today, you know, we onboarded them, I think it was 90 days later, and and off we were now telling the market, hey, we have a software to sell and who wants to buy it. And so for then, you know, between January and April and June, basically on the phone, talking to everyone I knew in the industry, um, again, looking at the private lending space because we knew there was a fit there. Um, we sort of understood what the market would accept and you know that our product would fit in the cost and everything else around it. And uh, you know, that was sort of the the origin story of Funborn.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah. That's that's uh I love that. I love that. I I mean I think I think what's cool as as I sort of just reflect on it too with you here out loud, there's a there's a number there's a number of there's a number of themes. There's a number of themes that pop out. I mean, we talk about you know, we talk about being customer focused and and and chasing where that is. Like oftentimes you're solving the problem for yourself, right? A lot of these Davids, I'm trying to solve the problem for self. We're trying to build a a mortgage, a digital mortgage lender, and it takes us too long to actually give out the loan, it's not profitable enough, so we're trying to fix that, and along the way, someone else wants us to fix it for them, and that's that's you know, that's the the pivot there. Now, you face a lot of challenges during these early moments from funding and capital and everything else, and and really you go into this extreme survival mode for a little while. Where's the where's that piece that fits into this? Is this happening before that first customer, after that first customer, software customer? Uh describe that that mo those moments for me.

SPEAKER_00 33:51

Yeah, um I I would say being new to the technology world, having spent most of my life in in financial services, and you know, even up to that point, I'm not sure I knew what I was getting into, which was part one, but you know, I think that's true for most things in life, anyways. But where it none of the challenges happened then. I mean, we still had this small mortgage practice that we were brokering, we weren't really lending, we were brokering in. So there was money coming in. We'd raised a little bit of money. You know, it was, I wouldn't say it was all rose-colored glasses, but you know, it wasn't terrible. You know, where the where the story changes, and it's exciting, but you know, challenging, was um, somebody I knew for a long time in the in the mortgage uh through my mortgage practice um was a gentleman named Kevin Clark, and he's now our chief revenue officer here at Funmore. And he was running a another business, and um, but well connected. I'd spent 30 years on you know, ELT team at um Scotiabank. And you know, I think I sort of say this um facetiously, but the truth is I think most risk officers in this country worked for him at one point. Um so he's very well was very well connected and still is today. And and uh, you know, we we we had brought him in as an advisor and just to help make new connections in the space that you know I maybe didn't have reach to or didn't didn't know. And um, you know, he he suggested that we should we should be talking to like I talked about those three buck those three buckets in Canada, sort of that mid-market, at least, if not everyone. And so he was gracious enough to make some introductions to some people he knew and former colleagues and things like this, and we're having conversations about you know how we would envision the future of mortgage lending from a from a lending perspective, and um and we get into an RFP process with a significant bank here in Canada, and I I don't know, some for some reason we won that deal.

SPEAKER_01 36:02

Um that first that first one that you get is always always a fluke. You know, you're like, I don't know how we got it. We probably priced it wrong, uh, we probably had no idea how to actually deliver it, so they thought we knew something that everyone else didn't, you know, like that's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah, in this case they priced it for us, they didn't give us a choice. It's like you're we will pay you this. Okay. Um and it was it was a little unique though, because that not only did they say we will price it this way, we're also going to invest in you. That was the stipulations of the deal. You can sign it, or we're not moving forward. Um and it so we have and it was a substantial amount of money for you know for us at a time where you know I think that we'd raise maybe a quarter million dollars at that point, and all of a sudden someone's wanting to give us a million dollars, and it was like, what do you mean? Um that's a big difference, that's a big uh a big statement. Um and you know, I remember you know my uh co-founder, Dinesh and I, this is this was late December. It was we end up signing this thing around December the the first version of this contract around like December 30th or something like this. And I remember sitting there, and I can still remember where I was sitting in my house having this conversation with him, uh, you know, on the cell phone saying, Well, why do we need this money? And him, you know, is like kind of saying the same thing and and uh and but not having a choice. And so, you know, the only thing we were able to sort of negotiate is what the terms around what that investment would look like. And um, you know, looking back, I it was probably a mistake as well, but not knowing any better. We pushed it into a safe. Um, so it gave us some more flexibility. Um, or at least it felt like we had flexibility. Two and a half years, two years after that, I would say that was the worst decision we one of the worst decisions we made, and we should have just taken the cash for it for a valuation on the business.

SPEAKER_01 38:08

But um, and that's that's that's interesting, though. That's like most people would say the safe is the better decision early on when you don't know. But why what's the reflection here that because of how long it just took to build? So is that is that what you know your reflection is on it?

SPEAKER_00 38:29

So so we we we we moved forward with this company. This is the end of 21, takes us three and a half years to build out the software. But that that wasn't the uh that wasn't the reason why I why the the the the sort of I don't know I want I don't want to call it a regret, but you know, the the sort of learning, I guess, looking back, if I could go back in time of like, no, we're gonna set a value and we're gonna move forward. Um probably because values were still crazy in 2020 and 2021. And and um and you know, also, you know, it because it took so long, and you know, all of a sudden, the idea of running a mortgage business on the side of running a technology business, once we on once we decided to sign a bank, that mortgage business couldn't operate. It was impossible to operate both businesses, we weren't big enough. There was you know, three or four of us around around the team at the time, you know, a growing group of engineers, limited cash, nobody's making any money. Um, you know, we're just trying to survive because it felt like if you could get these guys live, the revenue on the back end of this would be enough to sustain the business. It's a substantial contract.

SPEAKER_01 39:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

And um But that was it.

SPEAKER_01 39:54

If you can get them live fast enough, it wasn't even just you can, you know, if you can get them live at a certain time, that's can you so you know, and that's it that comes back to it. Like, can you survive long enough to actually see the fruit of your labor?

SPEAKER_00 40:07

Like that's yeah, and and this was something we had an experience because at that point we had only sold to these private lenders, which you could onboard in 30 to 90 days. You would I mean a smaller contract values, but you'd see the money coming in relatively quickly. On the other end of it, you're now we're now we're now having to integrate into these really big core banking systems, again, very archaic, and all these kind of integration points and these different all of a sudden you're bringing in not what was uh you know, sort of a very finite business where you know they they're only they're operating in one very niche market, you're now trying to support an entire institution. There's a lot of moving parts, and you have to deal with change management. Well, you didn't really deal with that in the other part because you're we are we're really ripping and replacing old tech. And that impacts, well, what we learned is it impacts a lot of different groups in these institutions. Um, and so you know, I where where where we wanted to, and and and you know, I think where they wanted to was really look at this like a partnership, which comes back to the reason why they invested in us too, because they looked at us as a long-term partnership and solution to modernizing what they do. And um, but I'll tell you at times it certainly didn't feel that way because you know, they're this massive bank, this Goliath, like you've mentioned, right? And you know, we're this little 20-man company trying to, you know, they they had 20 people in in in one small department of the group that was basically overseeing us, you know, that they just put in place just for this project. And that group reported to the the bigger ecosystem. And so you had uh, you know, we're we're their pilot project was bigger than your entire company. That's basically it. And so we're we're trying to uh um and and I mean the truth is they're still processing their loans and they're still making money, and this is a cool idea for them to, you know, thinking of thinking about how they would evolve. But if we didn't survive, their investment, I mean, it they would have written off a loss, but it wouldn't have impacted their long-term, you know, their long-term growth plan. Um, and how they would have done it, they just would have continued doing what they would have done, and this would have been all we tried. Um and and so, you know, there's there was a lot of support from them, but there was also a lot of you know things fall on deaf ears sometimes as you're moving forward in these these these big uh big big game, you know.

SPEAKER_01 42:45

See, that's that's really interesting because you know, in a number of these in a number of these stories, see one of the stories that that comes to mind here, Chris, as I'm listening to yours, is is one of our other uh local friends, Anvil, who's here in Ottawa also. And so similarly, they sort of realize there's archaic uh archaic data systems in our defense industry, basically like uh you know, DD and the uh Canadian Armed Forces all still using Excel spreadsheets to keep track of really important data and information for the safety of Canadians and abroad and so on and so forth. And basically they go, no one's building anything for it because it's so difficult to actually just break into it. But here's a here's a way, like we can just digitize this. Sort of your same thought, which is like this is all done manually, we can just let's just digitize this. And then as you get into it, the two challenges are okay, well, there's a million features here to just digitize this, and actually selling into this industry and gaining the trust in this industry is extremely difficult. So you sort of have to gain a partnership. And so you sort of get married over to an investor, slash a right. In in in Anvil's case, they don't they don't really do that, they but they get married to the to the cat the Canadian Armed Forces. They sort of find a way to get in there and so that their success is your success. And so the the the customer has skin in the game. But as you're reflecting on this, you're sort of saying, Yeah, the customer had skin in the game, but we were a nice little bug that if they had to flick it off, it was like not that not that much skin. It was just a nice little project. And so it actually, in a way, made it more difficult for you to find some success in that.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

I I I think that's a great analogy, and really of how how this thing how you know there was certainly a lot of leadership in that institution that was pushing for the success and really driving, and that's from the CEO down. I mean, they wanted this to succeed, they were putting capital in and you know investing resources internally. Like I said, they basically put up a team of 20 people that just worked on this project for three years. So it wasn't it wasn't like they went into this with, you know, well, we don't really like they were they were dedicated to it to make sure this succeeded, but on the same time, you know, it like you said, if if it didn't succeed, well, they would have moved on. Um, and and like I mentioned that other Canadian story that you know, it and that's what happened to them. It was, you know, I um we we had a very similar uh they may have started a year and a half before us in this technology space, but we sort of had the same story in listening to the CEO, the the former CEO of that company. You know, he the the the this the similarities between how the path they went down and the path we went down. It just happened to be that the two largest players in this particular space in the mortgage industry, we had one customer, they had the other, and we both went down this path, and you know, it just seemed like it didn't matter what we do, they would not go live. That every box had to be ticked. And and look, rightfully so. This is a if our platform were to go down, people aren't funding loans. If they're not, if the lends aren't lenders are not funding loans, Canadians aren't buying homes for this particular bank. And you know, there's not only is there impact of to you know the Canadian trying to get their home, it's huge regulatory fines and everything else that comes around this. So yeah, and so I appreciate all all all of the reasons why it's just frustrating or or challenging as a you know the small little fintech trying to say, Well, please go live because I need that revenue, right? I mean, again, not even knowing how to contract back then because it was never our intent, but it's what happens.

SPEAKER_01 46:33

So you sort of yeah, you sort of end up selling this huge enterprise software, essentially, when when really what you you want it to be as a startup and as an early David is sort of this iterative, small piece, you know, like hey, sell this, get it live, try the next piece, iterate on it. You couldn't you couldn't do that, you couldn't do this iterative process to software building because it needed to be perfect or close to because it's in such a highly regulated industry.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

Yeah, yeah, and and and the the additional requirements that were we had to build for that that level of institution didn't exist in the a private lending bucket. We went from 100 features to 400 by the time they went live. Um, you know, we went from one group of individuals working on the system to eight within a group. We went from five people in a bank to hundreds of or in an institution to hundreds of people using our software um in different departments. So it the the magnitude of scale was significant. Um to make it more complicated, um, and and you know, we were fortunate enough during this three and a half years to win two other RFPs. So, you know, a massive um US brand was entering the Canadian markets, um, went through their RFP. You know, they were kind enough, I say today, to select us and you know, buy into what our vision was for this software and for the mortgage industry, um, as well as one of the largest credit unions in Canada. And and you know, after that, we didn't make another sale. So from 21 to 20 to to you know, basically the middle of 24, these were our three customers. We had a few, a few private lenders, you know, uh, a couple of them still are you know customers today, and these three relatively massive brands because in each one of their buckets, they were the market leader. And you know, which and we're still a team of 25 people. But now money's running, we're we're we're running out of money. None of these customers are alive, but we have huge build requirements. Um, and and you know, this is where you know, coming back to the the question 15 minutes ago where you asked me, you know, where where does the pain really start? Well, the pain really starts when we sign that third customer because we had um or or this, you know, maybe the second customer. We we we really needed to raise um funds to be able to support this. And so we did. We went out, um, I guess it was uh this would have been in the end middle of 22? Middle of 22. Um and so we're about 18 months into this journey. Two customers signed and and in and uh um and ra and we raised funds. I mean, it's a it's a story that would probably take me another hour to tell you about how we even got to that, but we ended up raising money. We just chose to go through another strategic. So we have uh we have now have two strategic um capital partners on our cap table. Um and um which made sense to me at the time, you know, they have they would be customers, they would provide market access, things like that. We um we were supposed to be uh, you know, we we were we'd planned to raise a certain amount of money. We only really received half that those funds, and it put us in a really tough position because uh um you know it's probably uh another lesson in life. You know, spend what's in the account, not necessarily what's coming in the account. And we spent as if money was coming in the account. And by January of 23, um we were we were told there was no more money coming, the second half of the investment wouldn't come, and it put us into a really difficult position. We were 90 days from running out of cash. Uh, we'd expanded the team, I think at that point we were close to maybe 35, 40 people. Um, most of that on the on the implementation side, trying to get these customers live. Um, we had just signed the third customer um with a promise of delivery, you know, uh uh coming up, um and and uh and then you know entering this RFP with this big credit union that I was talking about. And so we were we we were up against it.

SPEAKER_01 51:20

Um had to you've got signed a third customer, second half of investment not coming in, team grew to 35, and you got 90 days left of cash.

SPEAKER_00 51:30

Yeah, and and no customers live. I mean we we signed this one private lender who'd gone live, you know, right away.

SPEAKER_01 51:37

Which means that you're not really getting paid from your customers either yet, because your your your your real pay comes in the processing of these mortgages.

SPEAKER_00 51:46

Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, faced with the the end of end of times, we you know had had to we had to cut back, um went back to zero salaries, you know, what whatever it would take to kind of find a way to to get to get a customer live, yeah. Or raise more capital. Um you know, as it turned out, um, you know, we were able to um to find a way to get get another another capital injection, um, albeit you know not huge, but enough to to keep us afloat um long enough. And and then came and and and you know, there was this it was uh at least for the 23, like w while we were trying to negotiate sort of the future of fund more and what it would look like, and we had looked at everything from should we sell, you know, was it was there enough assets in the in the product to maybe to you know sell the asset. Um and um we were able to to put a line of credit together to keep us alive. Um and and then we again, it's almost like someone was looking over our shoulder and we won this credit union deal. And the credit union deal, you know, we'd we'd learned enough from these previous uh contracts to understand how to price these things.

SPEAKER_01 53:16

And that you know, you isn't that the isn't that the funny part, right? You realize that like your first your first three, you probably priced as your first two or three, yeah. You just you you sort of put in a finger in the air trying to test the wins, how much can we get for this, right? Like Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:31

Well, like I said, the first one we didn't get a choice, it was just this much you're gonna pay. Um, you know, the second one on the back of that was this, like I said, massive US brand. And you know, they had a lot of power in what was going to be put into that that deal as well. And you know, the third one's small uh it was us uh another small lender in that sort of private space. And um anyway, so we so we had these groups of of of banks and and and lenders, and um and then we won this credit union deal, and you know, it it um again and you know they fortunately um for those that have been in the credit credit union space, you know, it's it's uh both as a customer and maybe as a vendor, it's it is a very different um mindset. Um still very aggressive, still need to get the job done, but certainly one of you know that that they they they value the partnership, I'll say. Um and and it was it it was really you know that that allowed us to sort of get over the hump, which you know still took us another six months to actually um you know launch a customer. Um and or to to fully launch them. And you know, the the next challenge was both the bank and the credit union made the decision they were gonna go live on the exact same week. I remember and so we've we've never deployed a a customer to begin with at of any scale. We still only have this one private lender running on our system, and now we have these two massive institutions telling us we're going live in the exact same week. We're still only 35 or 40 people.

SPEAKER_01 55:20

Wait, and you guys had uh you guys had some you guys had a big trip planned during that same time.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

My uh my co-founder was celebrating his 25th wedding anniversary and you know had a big party planned in Bali for the exact same week.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

So no perfect, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:37

The team isn't it is not well, not all of it, but some of it. Um, you know, uh two these two decide to go live at the same time, same within three days apart, and uh you know, with the whole company basically being on the line. It was one of those moments, and I mean, I'm not the technologist, there's very little I was gonna control in that. Um you know, we had our CTO on site, we had a couple other people on site with the customers kind of in these war rooms as we watched what would happen from you know 12, 13 hours away. And all I remember is waking up in the middle of the night, checking my phone, thinking, Well, nothing, nothing went down.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Nothing went down, we don't have a million emails coming in, no five, no fires.

SPEAKER_00 56:25

That's exactly yeah. I guess we survived. Um, that was a thought process, anyways. And uh, so we got back and um, you know, it's uh it's it's you know, it's it's been interesting because you know, we we had these success stories now. We have these, you know, three customers live, and you know, but that was only like part of it because they still hadn't deployed the entire institution. There's still parts of it that need to get rolled out, and there's still more building requirements um to actually get to full revenue on these customers. And you know, so we're in in in uh in all those cases, we're still uh well the credit union is into their last phase. We another big successful launch recently, but they're uh they're um it's it's incredible when you're working with these big financial institutions how slow they will go. Um, even though for us that moment in you know May of 24 felt like okay, we're on the other side of it. Well, we're not really on the other side of it. We just so we just proved that this thing will work at scale. No one's going out of business. That that that you know, we we didn't put the bank out of business, if you want.

SPEAKER_01 57:45

Um but to them, you proved the MVP.

SPEAKER_00 57:49

Yeah, that's exactly it.

SPEAKER_01 57:50

Like you thought you were launching to them. That was that's a good MVP. Let's let's keep this rolling.

SPEAKER_00 57:56

Yeah, yeah. And so um, but on the back of that, you know, it that was the proof story for, you know, I would say what seems to be the most the proof story for a lot of these Canadian institutions to have um made the decision now to reevaluate what they're doing. And you know, we've we've been super fortunate in the last 12 months, um where it certainly felt like you know that because it we we've gone through this, you know, it's we're we're at the end of 24. We don't sign, we hadn't signed, like I said, another customer. There's been these sort of three kind of um or four, I guess, customers, and um and uh sitting there at the end of 24 and and I'm I'm on a call with you know my chief of staff, and I'm sitting there is it was December, I was so frustrated with everything. I actually took all of the last December off. And but I remember getting on the call after about three weeks of my sort of sabbatical, if you will, or longer big longer break, and saying, I don't know what we're doing. This is not a company. Because my entire life I'd been primarily on the sales side, a little bit on the corporate side of these financial institutions or or brokering. And it was always, well, if you need to make more money, you just go sell something. And here it didn't seem like you could sell anything. You know, like what kind of world or what kind of business are you operating where you can't sell something? And that was really what it felt like. Um, and you know, we had even though we spent months and or or you know, in huge amount of time and effort meeting with all these senior executives at all these banks, and um it never it didn't materialize in anything. And I'm thinking, well, okay, we we accepted that it was gonna take us a while to build out a a product that could be recognized in market. We we proved that it worked. You know, what else do they need to sit there and and and maybe take a step forward? Um and it was the same moment when I'm ready to shut this whole thing down for real, that uh we get a call from another bank. And it kind of draws you back in. It's just, oh, now we're gonna, and so you know, we and and we end up signing that in early 25 and you know, onboarded them. Now our onboarding time is getting smaller, is you know, five months, and you know, then we signed another one and we signed another one. And so um, you know, it it it was sort of this little inflection point, I guess. It just it took a while, but once we proved that this thing could work at scale and you know, people could get their head around what uh what modernizing their back office of the bank would look like, um and and putting the you know the pieces in place, that it there is an evolution coming or a revolution coming in this Canadian mortgage space. Um and it's not just us, there's there's a lot of technology players now coming in, and these banks are are ready for it and and and and starting to make these changes, which is exciting because you know we did all this because we believe there was a better way to get Canadians into a home, thought we would do that as a mortgage lender, and now ended up being part of this ecosystem that's really starting to modernize it. And I I do think in the next couple years, it won't be difficult anymore for you to get a mortgage. It there's there's enough friction, there's enough traction in a very friction forward industry that it's starting to break it down, and you know, we're starting to see that sort of smooth road ahead of us, and I think it's exciting times um for the mortgage industry and and really for you know homeowner, homeowners and people that want to be homeowners.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:44

Yeah, yeah. And you've been a big part of that, you've been a big part of of envisioning that, of bringing it forward, of surviving long enough that you started to get these these big customers to kind of start knocking at doors and and willing to to implement. Um uh going live in five months. That's a big that's a big uh that's a big feat. Like that's uh what what's what's what's the goal now? When you get a new customer, what how much time do we try and and and uh actually be able to go live compared to the first one, which took three and a half years?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Is uh Yeah, three and a half years. Um I mean our our goal is to figure out how we get it down to 30 days. I don't know if it's ever gonna be possible. There's too many pieces that are out of our control. Yeah. Even in that five months, um, you know, we had a really willing part party on the other side, I'll say. That was really driving the the driving that. The product is at a point where it has most of the core components. And and I think the other thing I've learned working with these larger institutions is that it doesn't matter. You think you can be at 100%, you're never gonna be at 100%. I think it's it's this is not a product or selling it at least selling back office software. We sell a few a different couple products now to these to these banks, that it doesn't matter that you'll get 70% of the way there because there's just so much there's so many components that are unique to any to these financial institutions that you really will always be building 20 to 30 percent. Um and which I think which makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:23

I mean you look at some of the big software enterprises. I mean, Salesforce has these big implementation teams, right? Like because this is a reality with very large enterprise software, right? It's uh they need a ton of custom workflows and a t a ton of custom pieces to integrate into the existing system.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:41

Yeah, yeah, I think that's a great example, right? And you know, I think that's you know, that's that's the piece that you know it would be it would be great to sort of get to the other side of it or find a new market where you could put this thing in where think about Salesforce, where you can sort of deploy the the basic CRM or you know, you deploy this enterprise side of the software. We haven't figured that that out yet. And I think you know, even going back to how we started with the private lending space, there's probably a story there that fits that that kind of niche, or but we haven't found it yet, mostly because we've been selling to these enterprises. Um, and so you know, trying to get it to that 30 days, I don't know if it'll ever be possible, but that's the goal. Um yeah, I mean, they we we you know, with our our last couple customers we signed, they have pretty aggressive timelines. Um, so there's there's a willingness, I guess, on on by these institutions to try to hit these targets, but we'll we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

That'll be fun. Um so let's let's let's reflect on this journey because you've given me the whole journey here, which is pretty, pretty fantastic. I I've got a few you know thoughts I want you to reflect on, some lessons for us to kind of take away, maybe. But moving from from mortgage broker to tech CEO, right? Like uh over that eight-year span, um you know, how did your leadership style shift, you know, from sort of what you had as a mortgage broker, kind of working in the industry from the first business that you had to to to going back and then and then really developing the the digital you know mortgage lender and then to the tech really kind of CEO? There's really a few evolutions of of Chris's role here as CEO, but also like the sort of leader that you have to be. Were there any moments of things that you had to unlearn? Any habits you have to unlearn, so any new approaches to to to to manage, especially being the non technical CEO having to to build tech here for these these you know huge enterprise banks. So how what what's your reflection on that?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

So I'm it's interesting. I I think when I when I look back at um this evolution, you know, I'm when when I think about my broker days and and I did that running teams, I did that as part of a team, I did that as an individual. You know, it it's it's a very it was still kill what you eat. It was more of a sales leader type role. Even when I was running a you know a small mortgage brokerage, it it it was, you know, helping people figure out how they're going to get their next deal. You know, there wasn't a lot more to it. Obviously, you have your little admin in accounting and all those other bookkeeping things that everyone's got to do when they run a small business, but it was never um, it certainly wasn't what is what this is. Where I find maybe more similarities to what I do today versus um versus what you know, the mortgage side or you know, running those small businesses, things like that, is more from like coaching days. And I've I coached at a bunch of different levels and um in the in the soccer space and certain you know, kids as young as five and you know, early adults, sort of 18 to 20 year olds, and everything sort of in between. And you know, I I I think there's a lot of lessons that I took from that when I think about how you know uh you know how I would how I've evolved, at least on reflection. Um I am probably not the easiest boss to work for, and I don't mean that from being like an asshole or anything like that, but really from uh from from a just a perspective uh a perspective of expectation and the and an assumption, right or wrong, and I'm probably wrong by assuming this, but I assume people are more capable of that than than what people will give people credit for. And and so, and and I, you know, I'm not someone likes to provide too much um maybe too much guidance. You know, I'm like, well, here's a problem, go solve it. And I don't really want to hear anything until it's been solved. And, you know, and and everyone in, you know, besides here's the parameters, let's go and figure it out. Mostly because that's how I approach my everything in my life. I just, and you know, and so when I think about how I've led this team, it's probably put us in some challenges. It's probably also part of the reason why we're still here today. Um and I and I like I think back on um, but I think back to that, and the reason why I reflected on coaching is because you know, I I was always I was always impressed what you could get a seven or eight-year-old kid to do with a soccer ball and a team to do with you know with a soccer ball. And you know, you would the the general consensus, I think, at least in this country, maybe not in all countries, was that in growing up, certainly around the sport, this is the way it was. It was, you know, you you were very finite in what you were capable of understanding, and you could maybe dribble a ball and maybe you could pass it, but you probably couldn't put that um contextually around a team and how they would actually move and and and play together as as a group. Um, but a lot of that was empowering the the kids to actually or you know, or or the you know, adolescents or the adults to go and accomplish whatever it was you were trying to, you know, put them in a situation to go and accomplish that outcome. And so, you know, I when I think back to it, that's really how I think about everything. I think about you know, these teams and these groups, you know, I I as part of a the same way I think about a team that I would have been putting together to go win a match or whatever it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:59

And, you know, with with the same sort of guiding principles that you know you should be able to figure it out. It shouldn't be me telling you how to figure it out. And um, you know, I'll put the I'll try to put the walls up so you know, you know, this is the area you have to, this these are sort of the the principles you have to work within. But it's your job to figure out, you know, maybe in some cases, what you're at what the game actually is and how you're gonna get out of the game. Um right or wrong, I don't know, it's just the way I am. And you know, I probably it it doesn't work for everyone. It comes back to my point where I'm probably not the easiest person to work for because I because I just work in those confines. And certainly when I don't agree with it, I will let you know. But if you do well, I'll let you know too. It's just been it's just the way I am.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:54

I think that's been all yeah. I mean, I'm I'm noticing one of the things here that that that maybe I'll I'll I'll pick on is sort of shifting from individual-based coaching to team-based coaching, right? So sort of like your early mortgage broker days, like it was sort of an individual sport. You had maybe a small team, like you said, you had some admins, like catch what you you know, you you you you you know, what was the saying used? You uh you eat what you kill, right? So so then it shifted to I have to lead through people, I can't just right like and I think that's your frustration when you think of the December 2024 moment of like this is not a company, I can't just go sell. It like this was your superpower, your ability to go sell and get the deal, but you had to work through people to get to the next stages, right? Versus sort of Chris as the individual contributor and Chris as like the individual sort of you know, using his superpower. And I I I like that you've used the sports analogy with the kids, because again, it's sort of now you can't get on the field and kick the soccer ball for them. You've you really do have to get them to be able to solve a problem on the on the field, to learn to work with each other, to be empowered to actually make those decisions. And so a big shift in your leadership, I think that I sort of just reflecting back to you is from that individual sort of leadership lens to a more collective team leadership lens.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:21

Yeah, I think that's that's fair. I mean, I I think I'm still learning on the job as well. Of course. Um you know, certainly some things I've done over the last three years probably won't do again.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:36

Um what are some of the what are some what are some of those lessons you're willing to share? What are what are some of the this is this is what I've learned over the last few years that I probably wouldn't do again.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:51

On the spot, I I mean I'm I'm I'm I'm not uh I can't even say I won't do it again because I know I just did it a few weeks ago even though I shouldn't have. Um you know I have uh I'm I'm actually I don't I don't get not it never really gets I never get stressed. I'm I'm uh nothing really bothered me at that at that level. However, I also only I have one I only have two modes. I'm pretty relaxed till 99% of my life. And then for moments, I will go from zero to a thousand and explode. Um and and it's not like there's a buildup of tension that you know I feel like oh, and then I just snap. It's literally in a moment. I just so I'm I'm really working on trying to you know not let that thing happen. Then I'm just why did why did we do that? And then jump to the other end of it. That's a lesson for me. Yeah, um, that's just something I'm I'm trying to, you know, it's it's probably a a combination of it's frustration and passion and everything else at the same moment, but I'm uh not not a great.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:01

But you're you're you're com you're competitive, you're a competitor, right? Like I think I've met I haven't met an entrepreneur who's not competitive and doesn't want to win, right? Like I said, the ones that win are competitive, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:11

So it's fair. Um but it's not good for the team, you know, either to that's the balance of someone there, yeah. Snap all snap like that. But I will say my uh those moments are way, way less than they were um when I first went down this path. Um you know, I I I think I think one of the things too, at early days, you know, I'd mentioned sort of putting up these walls or the the guide rails. I wasn't very good at that at the beginning. Um I think there was it was it was too much of a an open field and and free-for-all, and I think it probably led us down, you know, some paths because I think I I assume people would think the same way I thought. Um I kind of reflect back on my coaching days because you know I think it's the same type of thing. It didn't really matter like whether they were five-year-olds or 20-year-olds. You needed an outcome. You needed to provide you need them to solve to come up with the outcome, otherwise you're doing all the work. But you also need to give them sort of, okay, here's the rules of the game. And within the rules of the game, you can figure out the game and figure out the outcome, right? And and so that was something that I like when I think about how I think today versus five years ago or three years ago. I think I'm a I do a better job of that. I'm not sure I'm perfect at it. I think I'm getting better, but I um it is something that you know when I think about you know, trying to provide more more rails, if you will, that that we have to play within um to people on my team so that you know people are uh are aware of of what it is. I'm I do my best today to to get out of the way, because I think that was something else for a long for a long time. And uh I I would do, I would spend you know way too much time in fr almost in front of people, even though you know saying what I said. Um that's something else where I think I've learned over the last little while that it's it's okay. Um get out of the way, whatever happens, happens. Most decisions are reversible. Very few things that you're gonna do are really gonna impact anything, um, whether you do it or someone else does it. So, you know, let you know, and and and I think the other part of it too is trying to get other people on my team to to see that as well. That's another thing that I've it's uh it's it's something else I I've ex thinking back on it and and really trying to pull myself out of it is now looking at other people on my team and saying, well, why are you doing that? How do how do we get you to start thinking um in a way so that you let these other empower other people to do this this work, you know, and because we have these other people. It was one thing when there was five of us or six of us around uh, you know, around this company, or even one where there was 15 of us, but you know, you get up to these bigger numbers, and not that we're that big, we're 45 or 50 people, but you know, it's still you're you're you can't do everything. And so you you really need to um be willing to trust the people on your team to execute. And so that's something else I've been working on with some my own team is to say, well, let them work on that, and you know, you you provide the rails for them to figure out how they're gonna solve it and just trust that they will.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:44

Yeah, yeah. Give them space, give them direction, give them space, allow them to be empowered. Now, now uh Chris, your story is a story of innovation, right? So you're going into an old archaic sort of industry and you're trying to add some digital tooling and innovation. What are some of the innovative pieces, some of the features, some of the software like that that you are proud of? Or do you or do you also see it as, you know what, it feels innovative looking from the outside in, but honestly, we were adding fairly basic tech tools that just didn't exist because the industry was so old. So when you when you think of innovation, you think of the space that you're in, what are the thoughts that you think fun uh funmore has had a a role in playing?

SPEAKER_00 1:18:31

Yeah, you know, it's it's funny that I think when we we go to version one, um, you know, it was it was a pretty early versions of AI native solutions, why this thing was called Funmore AI. It wasn't, you know, the it wasn't just some moniker that we stuck on there. It was because that's how we that's what we were putting out in, you know, to sort of solve um for ourselves because we thought there was opportunity to look at these different uh different analytics and and and things like this to to predict and and and make decisions on. It was only when you know we we started selling it and and getting the feedback um that things sort of that part of the business felt like it started falling away. Um and and it almost became what you know the the second part of what you were saying there, which is you know, is this just one step further from where they were, and that's enough. Um I would say we're not one step, we're probably 10, but in some ways that's really what it was. It was taking them out of an on-prem, very old manual labor process where you know the average institution would work through 17 or 18 different systems to execute the loan, bringing it on to one.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:56

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:57

And so is it innovative? In some ways, yes. In some ways, no, because we were because it's overly regulated, you probably see this in healthcare and yeah, things like that. There there's only so much you can actually do in in in at least I'll say in the when when you're first selling to these institutions that well they do it this way, so they want to see you do it this way. Even though, and so but we're still trying to go up to here, but you know, they only under they still want to work here because this is what they've always done, and this is uh you know what they'll accept. And so it you know, I it I always think this one was interesting. We had this this this one of our first customers, and I won't say who, but you know, had this very aggressive goal to automate everything. And we were still building the platform, it was one of our first big customers, and you know, the that three kind of year journey. And we built 80% of the of their of what they would use as an automated outcome. And then when they get into their UAT, they're like, Well, how do I do it? Well, you don't, the system does it. Well, why is this why can't I change that number? Because you told us you didn't want to, because you wanted to automate this end-to-end. So we automated it. Oh no, no, no, I need to do that. And so we we and this again, learning from how you contract and everything else, some of the gaps and not being in technology prior to this, but anyways, um, we built out this uh, so we ended up having to rebuild or or build new functionality on you know, so that one, you could automate it or you could manually do it. And and which comes back to your point, is it a leap or is it a a step? And I feel like in some cases a step, in other cases it's a leap. Um, you know, bringing 17 systems into one doesn't seem innovative. It's a huge leap, but it's not innovative. It's just taking all this process they do, just sticking it into one package, that's why we have 400 features. Yeah. Um you know, putting in some of these automated steps so that they don't have to actually do them anymore. Well, that's an innovation that allows processing to get faster. Maybe one day you get to this idea that you can have sort of a a one one day one day process. I think one of the things I'm most proud of in all this, though, wasn't necessarily what we've really done for these institutions, although it's improving their life a lot. It's it's really what we've done with ecosystem partners and having and working with them to reenvision what they do as well. Because when you go to get your mortgage again, you know, you're gonna talk to a bank, you're gonna talk to a mortgage broker, whatever it is, you're gonna they're gonna ask you to fill out an application or they're gonna fill it out for you, or and they're gonna ask you for that Google Doc of infinite documents, and they might ask for it six or seven times, but it is so small in the process for funding a loan, like that process, even though it feels encumbering and it it's just a terrible process, but it it's what's required. What happens behind the scenes is you know, on an average mortgage, there's at least it's kind of counting off the top of my head, but probably seven or eight other institutions besides the ones that are actually getting in a mortgage that are involved in your transaction.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:33

I didn't know that. That's a big ecosystem.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:36

It's a big ecosystem. And so you have all the other players that it's all part of the reason why this thing takes so dang long to fund and why it's so complicated because you know it's going out and it's pulling. I mean, look, it could be as simple as added your credit agency, so an Equifax or TransUnion that would be one of those income systems. But there are other more complicated ones where you know it gets into the title of the property or it gets into um, you know, the there's uh like a whole fraud group that works around, and there's three or four ecosystem partners that are evaluating you, you know, from from a from a fraud or a or a um a risk perspective. And there's and none of these things are owned by the institution. They're all third-party groups that actually operate, like the Equifax and Trans Union, just in these particular kind of um kind of different markets. And so they all have to be part of that that decision because it's regulated so, and so they're all there. Um, and all these other institutions are all all these parties are all regulated in some way or another. Um, and so they all have to follow their standards, which has made it difficult for them to modernize what they do. But you know, the the one thing I think you know we've done very well um is to help rethink that entire process and sort of be at the center in some ways of of those stories of how these different components are re-evaluating their tech stacks, and which comes into this um where where I think we're probably having the most um direct impact is is you know, thinking is working with them to solve their problems too within our within our own platform, um, which ultimately helps the the bank, which ultimately helps the borrower. Um and so that that that's where I see, you know, I think if I the last five years where we've had the most innovation, it's been in that part of the journey.

SPEAKER_02 1:25:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:30

Um, the greater ecosystem. I think where we are today is now we're finally at this inflection point where, you know, with the way we think about AI today and and you know what the possibilities are of these of these agentic solutions and you know what the next two years are gonna bring forward is that you know we built we built the the back end for a solution that could remove that that could be faster, that could put people at the um at a point within the journey that they're confirming rather than doing. Um and I think that's sort of the next innovation, the next leap, whether it's us or someone else in this mortgage ecosystem, that that that's where we're gonna see the biggest impact. And I think you know, getting to this this goal of that sort of same-day mortgage or you know, next day mortgage is is really going to be around this concept because you can now have these agents doing the work. And and nothing in a mortgage is as complicated as it seems, nothing's actually complicated in it. It's a very, it's just there are you know 12 people that work in that journey of a mortgage. Well, how many of those tasks can be confirmed rather than done by a human? That's where I think the the the the evolution's going. It's too regulated to remove the human, so it's never gonna, this is a pretty this is a job where people will be involved for a very long time. Yeah, however, they don't need to be doing the work. And that's sort of, I think, the met the next message we're telling, you know, our next customers and our current customers. You know, how are we gonna help you evolve you know what your people are doing today into an agentic kind of solution? Um and and I think we've built the groundwork both with the lenders and our partners and the greater ecosystem to actually hopefully execute it.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:26

Yeah. And the trust. I feel like you know, coming in from the outside saying we're gonna build an agentic system would have, you know, uh especially for these enterprise legacy banks, like, ah, no thanks. I don't want you, we don't want that. We don't want what's messing with our data, we don't want, we don't know what's gonna break. We don't like there's just too much risk. But knowing that you've got success in building software with them, already embedded with them, you know, doing some of these experiments, doing some of these agentic experiments on existing customers could really be a path. uh because of the trust that you've established with them.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:04

I I think that's fair. I think most of this entire journey's been built on trust. I mean, you know, our we're not we even that first bank that took a risk on us you know a former executive at that bank, you know, and I I sat down with her and I, you know, asked her over lunch why? Why did you take the risk on us? You know, she'd moved on and so she was maybe a little slightly more free to to say um you know and she's like because I could look you Kevin Dinesh in the eye and I believed you wouldn't screw me over. And you know and and and you know the the the the extra the the extra piece of that was really coming back to Kevin and and you know his experience in the Canadian market, his relationships he had and that trust that he was bringing to the table. And if someone like that was working with someone like me there was probably something there willing you know that that was willing to bet on. And and but it came back to trust. And I think you know since then it's it's a big you know going in because we're small with a partnership mentality from day one not from a transactional one has been beneficial. We had turned down deals because it didn't feel like the right fit having if we had 300 people and 40 million dollars in the bank I would never have turned down those deals. It just we'll figure it out. But you know 35 man team and and uh and knowing that any one of these companies could break us it was really important that at least with the first um you know half dozen or so that you know they understood who we were and and you know they were at least from a perspective of of giving us the benefit of the doubt you know whether it was going to be rocky or not was was really important and and you know I think certainly they were betting on us because you know if it went sideways I'm you know like I said it probably would have affected the greater institution it would have affected the leaders that bet on us. Yeah um and so it's you know it's it's been important to us to help them succeed and and and vice versa. So it's for the most part trust has been a big part of it partnerships been a big part of it and um you know we continue to to try to build that that relation those relationships with others in the ecosystem.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:41

Yeah. I think you you sort of hit on my last question here Chris which is usually ask you know what what was the competitive advantage of being small of being the David the strategic advantages it allowed you to punch above your weight right like what what was it allowed you to do things differently because you weren't a behemoth Goliath incumbent but you were sort of able to be nimble small and what one of the pieces that'll offer up is sort of I think as a leader you're you know you've mentioned a few times you're like well I was naive to not to not know this not know that but perhaps your naivity is is the reason you were willing to do a lot of the things that you did right like it it sort of is like yeah had I been a tech CEO before maybe I would have known better but also would you have been able to even get those deals if you you know if you if you try like the the naitivity often allows these Davids to do things that most people don't think is possible or even worth it uh because they go not you know not worth it they overevaluate at the start of a decision before halfway through you're like I I guess I gotta get through this you know so yeah I think that's I think it's a really fair comment um I I've said this before if I knew what I knew today would I be here today I I would say probably not because I'm not sure I would have I would have done it the the the risks and we didn't get into all the details and the and the moments of of um of of clarity where you sat back and really said what is this for for and you know are we gonna get here will we will we exist tomorrow I mean there are countless you know uh events like that throughout the last five or six years that you know I I equate this to a roller coaster.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:32

It's just it's crazy. Where you know having I've had three other businesses that have you know done all these other things nothing's ever felt like this it was pretty like I said it was pretty easy. You just I don't know gonna go do this and this is going to be the outcome and yeah it's not easy but it's not it it's not crazy.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:52

Or this thing is just crazy. Like I I I I don't know I don't know why people do it. But you know I I get the concept the concept is oh there's this great potential outcome and but man do you risk a lot you know you're putting everything from uh not not just financially like you're you're putting your health you're putting everything you don't sleep anymore you don't eat properly you travel too much you you uh you know you you you put all kinds of things at risk and um to find a balance in that is is is a challenge and so you know when like I I I'm happy I'm sitting here today and you know but I but I but I'm also glad I didn't know what I was getting into because I'm really I you know I'm not that risk ever really bothered like I'm I'm not adverse to risk or certainly and I'm not adverse to challenges and working hard and all those things but I if I were to total everything up with the last five you know since 2020 since you know we made that since that guy said hey I'll buy that from you um if I were to you know sitting uh if if if I had this in a book I could read it I'm like there's no chance only idiots do that stuff um but uh you know I but you know like I said but because I didn't know and you know it's it just it was just another another problem on a Monday morning that had to be solved.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:26

Yeah it was just let's just chip away that one okay well what's the next problem and you know and then it's like oh look this is a great week there's no problems we client we signed a customer only to end up by Friday night something happened right well that's it right you're you're you get you get into you get into all of this just trying to solve the next problem which was we have a back office problem to make ourselves more profitable. Let's just try to solve this problem. And I think like I'm reflecting on this as I sort of wrap up this episode is like you're trying to just solve the next problem for yourself. You get a whole bunch of constraints and the constraints force you to sort of focus you're naive enough to try at the time and just like take the next piece. You're small enough to build trust because when you're smaller as you said I I got to look at you in the eyes and I knew you wouldn't fuck us over. I knew you'd you'd do well by us and and then you find a way to survive long enough to just and another customer and another customer right just like one to keep tipping over and and and then I think you get enough partners that have skin in the game that want to see you succeed. Sort of the this mix of all these little pieces that that get you to this point where you've you've started to have momentum and this wave and and and some real exciting opportunities. So so let's end this episode Chris with like what's next? What's 2026, 2027? What are you looking forward to? Where is the team focused? What's the what's the next act of Fundmore? Yeah I think our you know our our next one is like probably like the last one which is you know we sign the the the banking institutions make all their decisions in the last quarter of the of the calendar year and you know we sign a couple more customers so this next uh foray is let's get the next one live it's the same sort of mantra um I think uh you know be beyond that it's um you know looking now beyond beyond Canada you know exploring uh new markets and new opportunities we're sort of at that point now where I think you know we're stable enough to uh to sort of jump into the next ocean um certainly you know taking on um these sort of you know taking on this this AI world um and and really looking at you know how we can start building more optimization and and innovation into the product and you know really put that AI or dot ai back into our product and it's there a little bit but really thinking about how how we can we can solve that in the next next little while um you know looking at you know what a new capital partner could look like in in the company that's another big uh big objective for this coming year too I love that I love that well Chris this has been fun thank you for sharing your story with us story of innovation story of building a team story of pivoting over and over again um and uh I'm sure I'll be back to ask some more questions as we continue to take this story put it into our book try to understand the different themes the different pieces around innovation around building uh you know building in a in a in a world where breaking into an industry like the one that you broke into was so difficult so archaic and took you know so much time and effort um and I think there's some key lessons here for our listeners and key lessons for me um as I take away from this so thank you Chris for your time for your energy for your enthusiasm about modernizing the mortgage industry um and uh that's it for now.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:10

Yeah thanks very much appreciate uh and I hope I didn't go on too long.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:14

No, I think it was great. That was fantastic.