Hannah Pearn is a fertility and women’s health acupuncturist who runs a practice in South London. She is also a passionate educator on all things women’s health, fertility and menstrual cycle related, so much so she has even designed her own online course, teaching to conceive.
In this episode we discuss how acupuncture actually works and how it can support fertility, we also bust a few acupuncture myths!
Click here, if you are looking for a fertility support trained acupuncturist near you! You can also check out the British Acupuncture Council for a list of qualified Acupuncture practitioners near you.
Hi, I'm Rachel Sherriff, and welcome to the fertility method podcast. Our aim is to educate and empower couples who are struggling with all aspects of fertility by giving you the information to make informed decisions along the way. We hope that you find our podcasts really helpful. And we'll pop our contact details in the podcast description if you want to get in touch and we'd love to hear from you. Hello, everybody, and welcome back Today we have hanapin Joining us now Hannah is a fertility and women's health acupuncturist. He runs a practice in South London. She's also a passionate educator on all things women's health, fertility and menstrual cycle related, so much so that she has even designed her own online course teaching to conceive. Welcome, Hannah. Hello, Rachel, thank you so much for having me. Thanks for coming. Super excited to have you have you in today. So obviously, I'm an acupuncturist as well, Hannah. So today, I really wanted to have you on to talk about acupuncture and how it can help fertility and women struggling with things related to fertility. So whether that's the menstrual cycle, whether that's a specific condition. So I'm going to be getting into the mindset of someone that knows nothing about acupuncture when I asked you questions today. Sounds good. Hello. Yeah. Great. Tell us a little bit about yourself. How did you get into acupuncture? Um, so I've been an acupuncturist for nearly 10 years now. And I first got into acupuncture because I had acupuncture when I was pregnant with my eldest daughter, who is now 17. And I was going to be induced, they wanted to induce me because there was some issue with my placenta, I really didn't want to be induced because I was really planning to have a home birth. And so the yoga teacher that I was with said, why don't you go and have some acupuncture and I had, even though bizarrely, I lived in China for three years, I had never had acupuncture, or really, you know, come across it or knew much about it. So off I went, had some acupuncture, funnily enough with Emma cannon, who was, you know, as we know, a really famous fertility, acupuncture and does a lot around acupuncture for fertility, and was one of the leading people to work in that area, I think, a long time ago, she actually lives locally to me, so she was my acupuncturist. And I think I had two sessions of acupuncture, went into labour, on my due day, had a really straightforward labour at home, no problems, and was completely blown away by it. And that really was the start of sort of my foray into into this world. So yeah, that was a it was a really brilliant sort of introduction to what an acupuncture could do and the power of it. Yeah, it's one of those things, isn't it that you don't, you would never sort of fall into unless you'd had that experience yourself. I know, people don't train to become an acupuncturist, unless you've had a personal experience with it. So just rewind a bit, though, you lived in China. I lived in China, yes, for three years. And I was an English teacher. And what and it's funny, because I think back now, and when I can remember, lots and lots of things, you know, I lived in very, very rural China. So there were a lot of very traditional Chinese medicine. What I now know is Chinese medicine practices that people used to talk about. And I used to think, what's this all about? So, you know, there was all that information around eating hot foods when it was cold and cold foods when it was sunny, and, you know, keeping warm and keeping your feet warm, and all these things that my students and my colleagues used to tell me and I used to think, you know, this is all just, you know, I don't know what they're all about. And then obviously, when I studied Chinese medicine, it was like, all the experiences in China made so much more sense, like the food, the food combinations, the things you did at different times of year, you know, how you lived your life, it's suddenly was like, oh, yeah, that's what people were talking about. And I sort of wish I could go back to that period of time knowing what I know now, because I'd have so many more questions. But you know, that's the way that's the way it goes. Yeah, you could have got so much more out of living in China, can you really, really kind of I did not know that that was where my life was going to take me at that point. So yeah, it's interesting how it sort of went full circle in many ways. And, you know, I always think, in a few years, I've really liked to go back to China knowing, you know, because I've got quite a good understanding of the country having lived there for so long. I used to speak Chinese. Now I've studied Chinese medicine, I'd be like, God, I'd love to go back, because I've got so many more questions and so many more things I want to know about. So yeah, in the future, that is a plan, for sure. Definitely needs doing I'll come with you. Yeah. So you've you've kind of talked about you've picked up on a key point there that I wanted to bring up. So I think we have this concept in the Western worlds that Chinese medicine is a bit airy, fairy a bit wacky, but in China and Asia generally, these concepts that we use in our practice day to day, that's how people live their life isn't out there. Their healthcare is rooted in these traditional medicine forms and theories and and I think it's really important to put Now that Chinese medicine is not just something that, you know, it's been plucked from obscurity like this, this comes from 1000s of years of people living their life this way. And people do genuinely, you know, live their life like this. If you have a stroke in China, quite often in hospital, you're treated within the hospital by an acupuncturist as well as Western medicine doctor want you to go hand in hand. Yeah, it really like an integrated medicine. So how does acupuncture actually work? Then? Do you want to sort of explain to us a little bit about you know, how it works? You know, it's not airy fairy? Yeah, to us? It's a really good question. And it's a question that lots of people obviously asked me. And I think after, you know, 10 years of doing it, and being in this practice, I think the conclusion that I've come to and that, you know, I think in many ways, this is my personal conclusion. So, but this is the way that it works for me. And it works, you know, for me to explain it is that, in many ways, acupuncture is one of the best things that it does is that it's really good at turning off stress. And it's really good, it's kind of switching off that adrenalized. Cortisol fueled stress that so many people who come to us in clinic are experiencing. And so I think when you turn off stress, so when you turn off that stress response, then what a lot, what you are allowing the body to do is sort of able to rebalance and rewrite itself to, you know, to better health on its own. So for example, a way that I think about this is, we know, don't worry that if when your body is making progesterone, let's say you're in the second half of your menstrual cycle, you're supporting early stages of pregnancy, we know that the body wants to make a lot of progesterone. And we know that one of the big blockers to your body's ability to make progesterone is stress and cortisol. So if you've got a lot of cortisol and a lot of adrenaline running around your body, your body will always prioritise making that and supporting that to the expense of making your progesterone. So if you are able to switch off the body's production of adrenaline and cortisol, then you know that the body is going to be in a better place to produce more progesterone, which is going to enable a better cycle, more support for early pregnancy, and a general better balance of hormones for a person having a cycle. So that's what I see in clinic a lot. Because obviously, we work a lot with people who are trying to get pregnant, and it is really stressful. And where do you go with that stress? What do you do with that stress. And, you know, there's lots of ways that you can deal with it, you could do meditation, you could do yoga, you could do exercise, all of these things are really good at switching off stress, you know, there's really good science behind it. But for lots of people, they can't access that they don't want to access that, you know, that their mind is too busy to practice meditation, or whatever the reason is, when you come in for acupuncture, it's a very, very quick way and a very, very effective way of, you know, have causing the body to just relax and rebalance. So, you know, that's what I say to people in clinic is sort of the big overarching explanation. But also, you know, when it comes to fertility, we know that acupuncture can really help boost blood to the uterus and bloop boosts you know, the energy that's going to the uterus and build blood, and, you know, create sort of more energy around the ovaries. So the ovaries produce better eggs and better quality eggs. And, you know, if you're somebody who's suffering with period pain, it can just help with the flow of blood. There's 1,000,001 things that can help improve your sleep, which can help improve your digestion. And if your digestion is better than your hormone cycle is better. So there's, it's like, everything is connected. You know, in Chinese medicine, everything is connected, isn't it? It's like, you know, Qi is everywhere. We are all connected to Qi, we are all connected to each other. And acupuncture is exactly the same in that somebody comes in with digestive issues, they might be digestive issues that are related to stress. So if we're sorting out the stress, it has a knock on effect of clearing their digestion, which means that if they're pooing every day, we know they're detoxifying excess hormones, so they're going to have or we're likely to support a better menstrual cycle. So it's kind of complicated and interconnected in many ways, but it's also really simple in others. Sorry, that was a really long winded answer is a great answer. I loved it. I was really into that was great. But so something I'm keen to get to the bottom of and I'm just conscious that this is something that someone who's never had acupuncture. Yeah. Think. How does putting a needle? Yeah, one little toe, for example, have such a profound impact on your body's ability to combat stress? Well, I mean, in Chinese medicine, there are the meridians. So there's 12 meridians that we work on. And, you know, stress or disharmony or pain or imbalance would be causing whatever the problem is so like headache or insomnia would be caused by there being an imbalance in one of those meridians and bye bye putting the needle in, you know, as acupuncturist we really take a thorough diagnosis, we really ask a lot of questions to really understand you know, I take a good hour when I first meet somebody to really understand how their whole system is working. And you know, look at their sleep their digestion, we really want a lot of information so that we know which meridian is the most affected, which which is where the most imbalances and, and what we would do is we would use the needles to stimulate that Meridian to create a better balance. So it might be in one meridian, there's too much energy, and it might be in another meridian, there's not enough and this is where the disharmony or let's say the headache is coming from. And we would use the needles in certain places to allow that energy to flow freely to then enable the headache to be alleviated and cleared so, so it does sound a bit crackers. And believe me, I am the most black and white kind of I like facts. I like science. I like information. So being an acupuncturist does not come easy to me, because I really like to know, Well, why is this working? And what I've learned is it it works, because it creates that fleet free flow of energy. And I see in clinical all the time. So, you know, I questioned it myself, often. And it's only because I see such good results in clinic that I feel like that this must be an explanation as to what is happening. I think I think it is kind of rooted in science in one in quite a strong sense. Because if what you're saying is, you know, you put the needle in a meridian, you're affecting the local nervous system, aren't you, you're affecting the electromagnetic fields of the body, and our body is one big ball of electricity. And by putting some putting a needle into an acupuncture point, you're you're interrupting that electric electromagnetic field, aren't you? So exactly, it kind of is quite sciency if you strip strip back some of the other theory on a very basic sort of physical level. Yeah, fine. See? Yeah, and lots of the you know, if you look at the research papers, lots of the research papers will show specific points are good for improving the blood flow or reducing the stress or improving headaches. So the pain there's there's one isn't there about pain, neuro transmitters and how acupuncture needles can interrupt that pain response that people are getting. And that's exactly that is working on the neuro transmitters. So there is a very good, you know, load of scientific evidence out there. I just can't really understand it to be honest, because can't read scientific papers so well, but it is out there. And people thankfully translate it for me. There's definitely a lot of evidence around it, and certainly acupuncture for fertility. It's a really good papers out there. I think like you said, if you can find someone to translate them, always handy. So how does it actually work for fertility, then we've talked a bit about, like blood flow to the uterus calming stress and the relationship with hormones. But what other sorts of things can it help in regard to fertility? So, you know, if someone came to you, who was about to have an IVF cycle, how would it help or someone came to you with endometriosis? You know, what's, what sort of different areas are we looking at here? So in terms of fertility, it depends on what stage of the journey you're at. So there's a lot, you know, obviously, people come, who are just beginning to try and get pregnant people come like you say, with with endometriosis people come who are going through the through the round of IVF. And so the thing about acupuncture is that we tailor it very specifically to whatever that person's journey is, and whatever their personal experiences. So for example, if it's somebody who's going through IVF, a lot of the preparation is around, making sure that we're getting their menstrual cycle working well, making sure that we're really providing a space to obviously talk about their IVF and reduce their stress. So, you know, the acupuncture can really help bring down that stress level. And we're really helping, you know, trying to get blood flow and energy to the uterus to really work alongside the stimulation drugs that they might be taking to maximise the ability for egg collection, and the quality of those eggs, blood flow to the uterus to you know, to really support that area. And really help with things like sleep because people sleep can often go and really help support their digestion, making sure their digestion stays regular, so they can help detoxify, you know, the drugs that are in the system, and just, you know, provide that sort of safe space that you're not their consultant, you're not their partner, you're not their family member, you're kind of an independent person who's sort of backing them the whole way. So yeah, each each person really is is you know, how we do it is really different depending on on how they present and what their needs are. So you tailor it depending on what part of their fertility journey there are. Yeah, yeah. So no, you could say that No, acupuncture treatment is the same. Exactly no, and no one treatment is the same because again, so for say, for example, if it's somebody with endometriosis, depending on where they are in the cycle, you know, we would treat differently in the luteal phase. They're about to have their period then we would do in the in the in the first stage, you know, in the follicular phase when their follicle is developing. So, you know, you would change it really various different stages of their cycle. So every single appointment is unique and individual to that person because no one person is the same. So this might sound like a bit of a silly question. And so if someone came to you who was trying to conceive naturally, yeah, how often would you say they need to come? Like, what would the treatment plan look like for someone thinking about coming back, you puncture, and they're thinking, I need to know, in my, in my mind what this would look like for Yeah, for X amount of time, like what? Well, it's a good question. And again, it's difficult to really be specific, because it would really depend. So say, for example, if someone came to me, and they were they've been trying to conceive for, like, let's say, two months, and let's say their cycle was normal, the cycle was regular, you know, they, they had a good understanding of their cycle. They knew when they were ovulating, they got cervical mucus, they were timing their sex appropriately, they didn't really have many issues, their real issue was that they were feeling stressed about getting pregnant that glow. So let's say that's kind of like the minimum. So that with that kind of person, and there was no sleep issues, you know, there was nothing really major that was standing out other than this sort of, I feel a bit stressed, because I've heard it can be difficult to get pregnant, that kind of person I would probably see in clinic like once or twice a cycle. So maybe in the follicular phase, maybe in the luteal phase, so twice a month. And I would always say that I like to see people for at least three to six months, so three to six cycles, because we know, it's 100 days for the egg to develop and mature and that egg to be released. So if you're given acupuncture for three months, through that 100 day cycle, you know that, you know, that egg that's released, after three months, has had the effect the cumulative effect of, you know, having acupuncture for those three cycles. So you'd hope that, you know, we could have worked on stress, if that was a factor, we just supported them as much as possible. Whereas if someone came to me, and let's say they, they've just started trying to conceive, and they come off the pill, and their cycles were all over the place, let's say, you know, they, they weren't getting cervical mucus, they were having really irregular cycles, let's say the digestion was a bit bad, and they had insomnia, then that kind of person I would be treating every week and I again, I would be treating them every single week. And I would be treating them for probably against at least three to six months. Because what I would want to see as their cycle get better, that they notice their fertile signs, the cycle gets more regular, the digestion gets better, the insomnia improves. So again, everybody is different. And the amount of treatment really varies depending on how you present. But I always say three months is the minimum time period that I like to work with somebody. So it's a good a good timeframe for people that are thinking about having acupuncture give you three months, if not six, depending on your your case history, like you said some cases more complex and others just out of interest, like what sort of what sort of patients do you like treating what gets you a little bit excited in clinic? Oh, you know what all of them, because I love them all. And that is a challenge with everybody. What I what I what I'm always really interested in is, and what I find quite nice is when I treat somebody who let's say they've just come off the pill. And actually, lots of people don't have any, you know, this is no, there is no blame here. But lots of people don't have any understanding of their own fertility. Because nobody has ever told anybody, nobody's that, you know, we've never had any education in it. It's why I made my course because people come to clinic, and they have no clue actually, about how to get pregnant. Because, you know, the general myth is, is that you take protection, you take contraception, because if you don't take contraception, you will get pregnant, it's like a given isn't it? Or that's what society kind of thinks and so, so it's always I really liked working with those people, because a lot of the work that you do is around education, actually, it's quite difficult to get pregnant for some people. And it's not as simple as stopping taking the pill and then having unprotected sex, you know, you've need to think about timing your sex, and you need to be aware that women probably fertile for about four to five days each cycle. So it's not very long. And you know, if you're not timing your sex correctly, if you're not aware of all the things that can impact your fertility, it's not as easy as having unprotected sex. So I like it when someone comes into clinic. And they're sort of, you know, they don't really know. And they're really keen to find out more because there's a lot that we can do. And there's a lot of, you know, lots of ways that you can work with people that they then take over the treatment themselves, because, you know, they sort of understand how it works and they feel really empowered into knowing that they're doing all that they possibly can. Like, it's all about empowerment, isn't it? You're empowering people and knowledge is power, isn't it? You know, you give people the information and it's that educational side of things. Yeah. And you see someone who Perhaps came into clinic feeling frustrated and lost with everything, you know, a few weeks later, leaving feeling like they know what they need to do to get you even if it doesn't happen quickly, they feel much more confident that it will happen for them because they're doing everything they can if they're controlling the controllables as such, yeah. And the other the other thing is, is that, you know, when when people and it's, you know, say people, it's always women who come into clinic, and you know, having that conversation with them about, you know, this is not just an issue for you, this is an issue to think about your partner as well, because often women assume that their fertility is them, and that the man has, you know, obviously, you having sex with a man, then that's all they need to do. But, you know, just having those conversations, the number of women that I've worked with, where we find out it's male factor, it's not, it's actually female factor. I mean, you must have the same Rachel, it is a strictly nominal, and people walk into clinic, assuming that it's there, then that's the problem. And so we know, when we do education, and we, we know, we asked to get the men tested. And you know, we do support like that, it feels really good that you've actually found a problem a lot quicker than, you know, somebody who, you know, hasn't sought any acupuncture with a fertility acupuncturist and probably tried for 12 months without having any tests done. You feel like you've saved somebody a year of their life having, you know, probably half. Yeah, so education is such a massive part of it. It's a massive part of our job. Yeah, yeah, I'm actually, it's interesting that you pick that up, because I'd probably say for me as well, that's the most rewarding. Yeah, being able to empower people is really rewarding, like, you know, I think it's easy to gauge, a successful treatment as a treatment where someone gets pregnant very quickly. However, where we don't know what we've offered, even if someone isn't able to get pregnant as quickly on or does need to go on and have IVF. And the work we've done with them has given them the confidence and the knowledge to go forward with that. And I usually I mean, I, you know, when you see people at the other end of the spectrum, you know, who are thinking about IVF, or they're going through IVF. So, you know, lots of people say, I wish I'd come and see me two years ago, because, you know, I would may not be in this situation. Now, if I just, you know, seen somebody who was able to navigate helped me navigate and signpost, which direction to go. And because it's an it's a bloody minefield out there, isn't it? You know, you just don't know where to go for the right information. You don't want to use GPS not very helpful sometimes, because, you know, no GP bashing, but just because that's just the nature of it. But then you don't want to go to a fertility clinic, because you don't want fertility treatment. But there's nothing in between, there's like this grey area where you're left to carry on trying for 12 months before you seek any help. And that's where I think we come in really, really well, where we can really offer people hang on a minute, don't wait 12 months, because it's too long. So, you know, we can really support people to, you know, embrace the fight for your own kind of fertility treatment. That's not necessarily through an IVF clinic. The system is flawed in that sense as well. Like we said, No GP bashing at all, but it's the system, isn't it? And I think it's crazy that infertility as a part of medicine as a whole, we can give someone a treatment when we don't know what's wrong with them. So someone can have IVF for unexplained infertility. Yeah, that's me, that's just completely bonkers. Because, you know, if you don't know whether or not someone has cancer, you don't give them chemo, you know, on the off chance. Yeah, it might work. It might not you get the diagnosis first, and then give the treatment or fertility, it's all a bit backwards. And we give the treatment without really understanding the diagnosis. Yeah. And the percentage of chance of IVF working without a diagnosis, you know, it's not that high, you can massively optimise your chance of success, if you know what the diagnosis is. Yeah. Yeah. Does that, isn't it? Okay. Anyway, back to the acupuncture. Yeah. So I am going to kind of do a bit of myth busting with you. So these are the sorts of questions that you and me both receive on a regular basis in our inbox. And they're really good questions. And actually, they're the sorts of things that if you're coming for acupuncture, or you're considering acupuncture that would probably crop up in your head, you went down that route. So one that comes up all the time is related to IVF. And it's Can you have acupuncture during the two week? Wait, that dreaded week? Wait, where you feel like you don't know what you should and shouldn't do? Yeah. Is it safe to have acupuncture in that time? 100% Yeah, we in fact, is a really good time that I, you know, I don't insist, because I never insist, but I say to the people that I'm working with, if they feel they want to come for treatment during that time, it's completely safe. I always say that acupuncture is not going to be the thing that makes your IVs successful or not during that two week wait, but what we can do is really work to support you emotionally and physically. So, you know, lots of people their digestion is off because they're taking lots of progesterone. Their sleep is off because they're feeling really anxious. You know? then it is a really, really, really difficult time. So just feeling supported and having something that they can do. That is safe and nurturing. And restorative tip is, is a really, really good thing. So yes, you know, sometimes I see people twice during the two week wait, so yeah, it's a good stressful time, isn't it? And you're you, you know, you feel about your chi exercise? Can I not? Can I have a hot bath? Can I use a hot water bottle? Like, it's so hard to know? It's so it's good to know that acupuncture is say you can have that during the two week wait. And it's good to keep the cortisol level low? Because it's like, yeah, some time. So how would you go about finding an acupuncturist? This specialises in fertility, it was good for fertility. So again, it's a bit like a needle in a haystack, you've decided you want to have some acupuncture? Where would you start? Where would you send someone to start with? Well, I always send people to a facility. The fertility support company is a company owned by Nava, Carmen and she, people who have got her Advanced Diploma in fertility are real specialists in their field. So myself, I knew Rachel both have this qualification, and increasingly larger numbers of acupuncturist or doing this qualification, because it's a really thorough diploma that you have to undertake. And there's a lot of supervision, there's a lot of support of, you know, doing continual professional development, because people who've done that will really understand IVF, to really understand the fertility from a Western medicine point of view, and from a Chinese medicine point of view. And so you know, that you're in safe hands, because there are a lot of acupuncturist out there. And I'm not no disrespect to any of them. There are a lot of acupuncture is out there who say that they do fertility, and I'm sure that they do. But I think if you want somebody who can really, really understand treatment from both perspectives, and really know how to sort of, you know, get the best out of both so that they will understand what drugs you're on, for example, they'll understand what the side effects are going to be, they'll understand. And they'll probably know which clinic you're at. And they'll you know, they know the protocols and how the system works, then, you know that and therefore they can translate that into Chinese medicine in a really, really good and appropriate way, then that they are, in my opinion, the best acupuncture is to seek so anyone who fertility support trained, and there's a whole site, isn't that where you can see the map in the country where people have got this train. So yeah, I couldn't care. I'll link it when the when the podcast goes live, I'll link it for everyone so they can make and have a look at another site. But yeah, completely agree. And also probably worth mentioning, as well make sure someone's registered with the British acupuncture council was all of I know all of novice qualify qualify keys or what would you call it? Novice? qualified, qualified? Yeah. Not the people that are qualified in the advanced facility diploma will all be members of the push acupuncture Council, but you can also go to the acupuncture Council website if you've got someone who wants to check their credentials out. So that's like the main governing body for the UK. Yeah. And then anyone who's anyone who's gotten the street cred about them for acupuncture will be registered on there. Yeah. So good to know. So, can you have reflexology? And acupuncture together? Because I know you've just taken on a reflexologist, haven't you? Yeah. So yes, is a question that comes up again, lots of people like to do both don't like, can you do both? How do they help each other? Well, I think they, I think that they are a really good combination to do together. Because the thing is, is that it depends what you're doing. And it depends how you feel about it. But you know, if you're doing IVF, for example, you are doing a lot of injections, you're doing a lot of needles. And sometimes I feel that, you know, lots of people come for acupuncture alongside IVF, because they've heard so much about it, they know it's really supportive, they feel like they should do it. And sometimes people come rather than because they want to do it, they come because they feel they should do it. And so, you know, sometimes having more needles when you're injecting yourself every day is not always the best, or the nicest approach, sometimes having a really amazing foot massage, really bringing down your energy, just having that power of touch, you get a really deep sense of relaxation, and it's very nurturing. And it's very kind of healing actually. So I think if you can use them in combination. So in many ways, acupuncture is very kind of science in that it's good, we know that it's good for oxygen to the uterus, blood flow to the uterus, you know, helping boost egg quality, balancing your hormones, and in some ways, using it in combination with reflexology, which is just so nurturing and sort of, I don't know, there's just something about the power of that touch that I just think is brilliant combination. And so I think you know, if you're feeling stressed out and you just don't fancy come in and having needles then then absolutely have reflexology, and obviously a bit like We're specialists in fertility. You know, acupuncturist who specialises in fertility. There are reflexology is out there who specialises in fertility. So, again, I would always seek somebody who's got that specialist knowledge because you want to go to somebody who knows what they're talking about. Absolutely, absolutely. And like you said, you know, we're always gonna sit here and advocate for acupuncture, but it's not for everyone. Some people are petrified of needles. Some people just don't find it relaxing. I've definitely had people email me saying, Look, you know, I've had it before, didn't find it relaxing. You know? Yeah, try reflexology, like something out there in terms of complementary health. Yeah, just check the evidence base for fertility. But I mean, I'm not sure what that is all reflexology. But I'm sure there's some some good evidence out there for reflexology infertility. So yeah, if it's not your, if acupuncture is not your thing, then go for it. So we talked a bit about equality. So how can acupuncture help equality? The question, I know, it's a very good question. Well, I think it's something about well, helping balance your hormones. So you know, if you're, if you're, if we know that if you've got a good hormone balance, then the production of egg is going to be like the best it possibly can be that cycle, we know that it can reduce the stress. So if there's less stress, if there's less adrenaline and cortisol running around your body, again, it's going to really help with that egg production. We know that sleep is a really, really important factor for egg quality. And we know that, you know, how many times do people message you, after they've had acupuncture and say, I had the best night's sleep ever. And we know that when people want to get the best quality, best quality egg, a really important part is having really, really good sleep. So that's another really good one that's sort of like a knock on side effect. And again, around sort of digestion, and just having again, around this sort of, you know, really good balance of hormones in your body. So if you've got really good digestion is highly likely your hormonal system is in a better or a good place. And that again, is going to be really good for egg quality. That's a really good answer. Because I think it's that's a difficult thing to answer. And it's a question that comes up a lot. Yeah, lots of, you know, we are trying to conceive later in life as a society as a whole. You know, and we know that after 35, we need to be doing everything we can to optimise our air quality, you know, we're led to believe is that education thing again, isn't it? we're led to believe that, you know, you get to a certain age on your air quality falls off a cliff, which has just been actually proven not to be quite so much the case, you know, but we're always on the on the lookout for what we can do to optimise our air quality. And yeah, it's good to know exactly how acupuncture can help. So where can people find you? How if someone wanted to pick acupuncture, what would the process be like? How does it work? So if someone wants to come for acupuncture with me, well, I've got an associate anger who I work with. So there's two of us, and we have a reflexologist as well now. So there's actually three of us who work in clinics. So we we work in South London. So we work in Stratham. And we also work in Berlin now, and you can go onto the website, and you can book straight in. So our first appointment is an hour and a half, because we really like to spend a long time working, you know, through all of your, you know, the whole of your health, your emotional health, you know, we like a really full picture of the people that we're working with. And also, we will probably ask you to do quite a lot tests if you've not got test done already. Or we can support you, if you want to go down the road of testing. So, you know, it's sort of a process with us. And we will, you know, start off the process. And then maybe we'll do some basic hormone tests. If you've got problems with your digestion, we might do some digestive tract tests, you know that it's, it's a process and everybody's different. But to start off with booking on the, on the website, and then we take it from there. I'll link that on the podcast as well. So you've also got your online course teaching to conceive, passionate about education, what's what's on the course tell us what's involved in the course. So the course is a I think it's seven videos. And it's all about basically it's all the stuff that you wish you'd been told about how to get pregnant that no one's ever told you. So it's it goes through your menstrual cycles. So what a good menstrual cycle should look like because I'm a really big believer in that, you know, when you first set out on your on trying to get pregnant, there are clues in your menstrual cycle, that could be issues that might be affecting your ability to conceive. So it's about looking at your menstrual cycle, what a good menstrual cycle should be. It's about looking at problems with the menstrual cycle and what they might mean and what they might mean for your health and what they might mean for your fertility. It's about how to track your cycle. So we know that people who track their cycle and practice fertility awareness, their time to pregnancy is shorter. So it's about learning how to track your cervical mucus, how to take your basal body temperature to confirm you've ovulated obviously tracking your cervical mucus so you know when your most fertile time is. What else is in there? Oh, it's about general lifestyle. So some really simple but effective lifestyle things that you need to be thinking about. You know, this is really aimed at people when in that first six months when they're trying to get paid. So it's not kind of if you're doing IVF, this is not the course it's for. It's a very specific timeframe. So it's about looking at, you know, your general health and lifestyle. And then there's also like a troubleshooting section of what what do you do? Like, where do you go? Maybe you're six months in, and you're not getting anywhere you feel like you want to help. So where do you go to, to get help? And how do you approach people for that help? And what tests you should be asking for? So it's kind of, you know, really takes you through the kind of basics, the fundamentals, not the basics, because they're not basic is the fundamentals around your fertility? The big bit of information that we've all been kind of missed out on, LED on? Oh, boy to get pregnant? Who heard? No, yeah. Okay, awesome. So you've got all you've got all bases covered there. Brilliant. And people can find that on your website as well. Yeah, just the link to on the website, there's a link to it on my Instagram page. So you can just download it and you can work through it at your own pace. You know, you can watch the videos, there's a load of handouts with links to like there's a nutrition handout, there's a link about support for supplements. There's some stuff about male health and how to get your partner tested and when to get him tested. So yeah, there's some really good handouts. And there's trackers on there if you want to start tracking your cycles. So I think it's good. I'm sure it is. I'm sure it is. I haven't seen it, but I'm sure it is knowing you and knowing how well you do the education side of things. I'm sure it's amazing. Well, thanks for joining us, Hannah. It's been very informative. And I know that people listening, we'll find it helpful. So if you are considering acupuncture, you know, do do have a listen and do the things that we've we've recommended. I'm going to link everything so you know where to go to find a good practitioner. And yeah, don't don't forget Hannah and myself, if you're thinking about puncture, so yeah, we'll see you all soon. Thanks very much. Thanks, Hannah. Thanks. Thank you so much for tuning in everyone. And don't forget to leave us a review or rate us and we look forward to seeing you next week.