Deals & Dollars: Real Estate Investors and Entrepreneurs
Welcome to the Deals & Dollars Podcast, hosted by David Choi, Eric Panecki, and John Libretti, three real estate executives from the New York City metro area. Every week, they bring on the best real estate investors and entrepreneurs they know to learn about how they got started, how they source their deals, and -- most importantly-- how they make their dollars.
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Deals & Dollars: Real Estate Investors and Entrepreneurs
How to Build $40mm in Real Estate Through RV Parks w/ John Mansor
Today on the show we have the Founder of Archer Acquisitions, CEO and Real Estate Investor John Mansor.
On today's show we have an incredible story and an even more incredible business mode. Our guest John Mansor recounts his ascent from a challenging childhood in foster care to owning a staggering $40 million real estate empire by 27. His story is a testament to the unyielding spirit of an individual who, despite a father battling addiction and an uncertain start, carved a path through the finance sector, tech sales, and ultimately struck gold in real estate wholesaling. His candid narrative not only inspires with its rags-to-riches essence but also lays bare the practical strategies that were the bedrock of his success.
RV parks are a completely unsung niche in investing and John dives deep to tell us the ins and outs of his secret weapon for building his portfolio in the New England area. Let's get into it!
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I sleep on a couple couches. I stay at his house. I stay at his parents' house. Three years later, you know, now we own $40 million worth real estate and here we go.
Speaker 2:you know, three, two, one go MUSIC.
Speaker 3:All right From rags to riches. We have an incredible story today. John started from literally, I mean probably one of the worst situations you could come up with and, at this point in time, only 27 years old, $40 million assets under management and not just like regular multifamily. He broke off into a niche that's incredibly profitable, and so today we have John. John, would you kind of just give us a little background on you?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, of course I'm super excited to be on the first podcast I've actually ever done, so you know. But so pretty much. I grew up in Westchester County, which is the place that you just purchased one of your properties at which congrats on that. My dad was an interior designer and general contractor entrepreneur. He did very well, had locations in Greenwich, mount Kisco and a bunch of other places. He actually got into a terrible car accident back in 2006. Had a bunch of. He had really severe back injuries, but he was such a workaholic that he felt the need to actually continue on and he turned to painkillers, mostly OxyCot and OxyCodine. Then that turned into a crack and cocaine and a bunch of other stuff.
Speaker 1:We ended up losing everything. A SWAT team raided my house when I was 10. And then I got put into the foster care system. Between sixth grade and ninth grade I was in and out of different homes and then I got adopted and then that person kind of like put me on the right path, went to Bentley University in Boston and then from there went to Tech Sales and reconnected a little buddy of mine.
Speaker 3:Before you go into that real quick.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course.
Speaker 3:Because I know in the bathroom we were just talking about why you got into Tech Sales. What did you study at Bentley and how did you land in Tech Sales?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, of course, great question. So I've majored in finance with a concentration in corporate finance. I was doing pretty much finance for four years and accounting and I wanted to go into investment banking and private equity, just like everyone in business school wants to go into. I don't want to go consulting. Everyone wants to do that. Everyone from Bentley went to that. So what ended up happening was I applied to like 300, 400 places, got two interviews. One of them was more like oh, we actually had an error on our end saying we're not going to hire you, so got one interview. Said I didn't have experience, it was for an entry level role. So how can I get experience? I just realized I actually didn't end up doing a summer analyst position and from there I had to pivot. I was naturally good at sales and talking to people and connecting with people, so I went to tech sales, did that for about two years, then went to cybersecurity consulting really sales, just title Consulting.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1:And then the pandemic happened. So at the time my boss was just like we don't, it's not a pandemic, come back in the office. I was like, come on, let me move to Florida. And he was like no, and then like three hours later he texts all of us saying, hey, my wife just told me that it's going to be a pandemic, so don't come into the office for the next six months. Wow, I packed my bag and I was on the next flight an hour later, moved to Florida and then from there I lived between Florida and North Carolina because my brother was in Chapel Hill, he was doing construction and he had a bar, so we pivoted from a bar to a restaurant.
Speaker 1:And then I reconnected to a old buddy of mine His name is Ben and he was doing wholesaling in Boston and I had no idea what wholesaling was and how lucrative it could be. Next thing I know him and I are having really good conversations. Me and my brother were rebuilding in 1979 when Abago and he was just sitting in an office doing wholesaling but also doing leasing as a day job because he was still trying to figure it out. What ended up happening was I was like, oh, let's try it. So I get my. You know, I dip my toes into the water a little bit, realized it was actually a really good business to be in. And then from there I was like how do I jump in head first?
Speaker 3:What was the point where you realized this is a good business to be in?
Speaker 1:He just told me one of his assignment fees and I was like I think was it 50 grand.
Speaker 3:Oh yeah, that's a nice one. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 2:How soft would you have to sell to get that? Say that again how much software would you have to sell to get 50 grand?
Speaker 1:Oh, dude my commission on like a product that was like 100 grand, was like 3%.
Speaker 1:So I probably sell like 20, 20 different contracts. So it was just so. It was it was stupid, yeah. And then, but we started, you know, we started just kind of shooting the shit every single day and we realized, you know, we did a pretty good job, or I was doing a pretty good job and I was like, how do I become a partner? And he was like I gotta move up to Boston. You know, two weeks I move up there, I sleep on a couple of couches, I stay at his house, I stay at his parents' house. Three years later, you know, now we own $40 million worth real estate.
Speaker 3:And here we are you know, that's amazing. Yeah, dude, that's incredible. Tell me about, like the, that experience when you first moved in, you first started the, you first joined the team and you want to become partner. Like what did that feel? Like what did you go through?
Speaker 1:Honestly, I was just. I was in Florida and I was doing a bunch of cold calling and I was sitting here like this is stupid, because every single seller I was talking to was just like you're not going to come see my property. You know why aren't you coming to see it? Why some random coming to see it? Because you know, when you're wholesaling you're developing a relationship and a connection with that person. That person has a specific pain point and you have to make sure you address that pain point, depends on it. They don't want anyone else to address it. You establish that relationship. You have to stay with that relationship.
Speaker 1:So, that being said, I was just like all right, I just got to go do it. And so I packed my bags. I only packed like a little duffel bag, so I kept on doing laundry for like two days, you know, because I had no other clothes. But then, you know, I went down to Florida, grabbed everything. I was like I ain't coming back and I want to figure this out. And it was a crazy ride but it was super fulfilling, but yeah.
Speaker 3:Like I just put up a story about one of my closest friends, veronica. She quit her teaching job. She moved into like she slept on air mattresses in vacant apartments that she had to furnish for. Airbnb arbitrage for six months. Cat pissed all over her the first night. She's got no clothes. I mean, just like literally grinding it out 100, 120 hours a week and within nine months man, nine months she built 100k passive income from Airbnb arbitrage. Nine months. And so, like it's like, she really is an exceptional case.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Because she's just smart, she's pretty, she's got the whole package. So whatever she does like with everything she's got, she's going to succeed. But, like people don't realize. If you're willing to take the risk and take the jump towards pursuing your dream and go all fucking in like, sacrifice everything, you're going to have success. Yeah, so like tell me, like what that three years? Like when did you pivot from wholesaling to acquiring assets? Because it's two completely different businesses.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, of course. So pretty much they had been doing wholesaling for about a year prior to me joining on or me even starting.
Speaker 3:How big was the team before you joined?
Speaker 1:It was just, I don't know. We had like five virtual assistants doing cold calling, but then it was my partner or it was Ben Carl Alex. So those were the three core individuals in Boston, and then everyone else was either in the Philippines, eastern Europe and, like Costa Rica.
Speaker 3:Right, right, right. And those three of you guys you Ben and some other Carl, and then five VAs, yeah, and they've been operating for a whole year.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:So, you jump in, you move to Boston and what are you doing and like? What did your life look like at the time?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, of course. So pretty much. When I joined on, we were doing wholesaling for about a year. We realized that something was missing. You know, we were profitably learning, as we like to say. It wasn't creating anything. It wasn't building something up that we can later sell and then make a buttload of money. So what ended up happening was really what's missing. You know why were these people paying us these $50,000, $60,000, $70,000, $100,000 wholesale fees? The deals were still good with those assignment fees. So what we ended up doing was we were like all right, let's take on our first project. We found a single family in the Berkshires in Massachusetts that we used for Airbnb that deal. We raised 13% debt, debt raised from private investors recycled the money in about a 12 to 18 month period. That was a huge learning lesson. One of the stories is I came back from New York. I actually slept in the place. What ended up happening was the boiler. You know how sometimes you have those automatic refill valves or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It didn't have that, oh no, so all the pipes froze. I slept in the house. I woke up and I was freaking freezing man, and then we got the pipes fixed. So there's a huge learning curve. That's what the first year after wholesaleing was. We were we bought an eight unit, we bought a three unit, we bought a five unit. One was like complete seller financing.
Speaker 1:So it was, we've done the spectrum of creativity in terms of structuring deals, but it wasn't I don't know how you'd say it. We were like, ok, how can we scale this up? And the way we scale it up was we started leveraging our relationships with other operators that have a larger track record than us, but we focused on one skill set. The skill set that we focused on was acquisitions. We got really good at finding deals from our wholesaleing days Wow.
Speaker 1:And then from there we were just like we don't want assignment fees anymore, we want partial to GP and that's it. So they would give us the GP, we'd find the deal. Sometimes they would operate the deal or we would operate the deal, but we were relying on third party property managers, and so we would just get constantly screwed on additional fees that the property managers want to let us know about from there. Our investors were hurting because we weren't giving them the returns that they wanted. Then we realized that we need to actually make everything in-house. So we started a property management company, a construction management company, and now we're vertically integrated and we do everything in-house.
Speaker 3:Gotcha.
Speaker 1:And so then we pivoted from multi-family our wholesaling to multi-family, and then my partner stumbled into an RV park.
Speaker 3:You know, that's incredible man. That's amazing, I guess, the hard part for a lot of wholesalers. Because we get the wholesalers to that way one day we could take the cash, dump it into real estate and start building passive income. But the issue is that when you take that cash and you retain earnings and you don't reinvest back into your business and you invest in actual assets, it slows down the growth of your wholesale business. So it's always kind of like a balancing act when should I allocate my capital Exactly? How did you guys survive? Did you continue to wholesale here and there or did you go all in?
Speaker 1:All in no, just completely cut it off.
Speaker 3:How did you survive?
Speaker 1:Savings.
Speaker 3:No way.
Speaker 1:Yep, that's literally all we did, and then for like one year we didn't pay ourselves. We just kind of all lived very, very frugally. Wow, I felt like I was homeless, but technically I kind of was, because I never actually had an apartment and I was just couch surfing the entire time, and so it was a struggle. One of our partners was like really struggling because he had inherited a house and then he was moving into that house, he had the mortgage payments, but then realized like Couldn't afford it.
Speaker 1:No, he couldn't afford it. But then also the tenants that had moved out started a dog kennel without him knowing and he was like fleas everywhere. It was this entire and he really felt the pain because he moved out of his apartment to move into this house with his girlfriend, now fiance. It was just a crazy situation.
Speaker 3:Bro, kudos to you for going all in on one thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, honestly, see, like what you guys do is pretty interesting.
Speaker 1:You guys did the whole standing ball, so the private lending on the side, and then you're buying assets and syndicating deals at the same time.
Speaker 1:The one thing that that's something that we didn't end up doing, because we realized, well, our understanding or what we wanted to do was we wanted to just scale our syndication or our deal size up. But one challenge that we're running into now is capital, because a lot of our capital network we relied on other co-sponsors for, and so now we're developing our investor network but also making sure that we're working with people that believe in real estate as a long-term wealth strategy rather than short-term gains, because our goal is to cycle money within a two to four or five-year period and then take those refinance funds and put it into the next deal, so then their velocity of capital is quicker, because most syndicators, as you know and I know, they always make the most money on the exit Not really. And then they feed the deal. They do an acquisition fee, a disposition fee, refinance, asset management, so on and so forth. We only charge an acquisition fee.
Speaker 1:And then we have an in-house property management company and so, that being said, what we do is we make sure that our investors are really making the returns that we're promising, because we're just trying to make sure that we're scaling with our investors, because we want to be able to have our investors reinvest with us and then hold assets. So they're building a portfolio passively, while we're building a portfolio more actively because we're managing it.
Speaker 3:So your strategy is to continually grow. Aum, you don't want an exit. Wow, how big do you want to build this thing?
Speaker 1:Billion, Billion. Well, me personally, I would like a billion, Because you know billion sounds nice.
Speaker 2:Who doesn't want to, that's the super-billion.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everyone's goal, exactly you know.
Speaker 1:At the end of the day it's more like that's where the RV parks come to play. Rv parks are super interesting because they're niche. Most people think RV parks mobile home parks are the same exact thing. They're completely different. Mobile home parks are highly regulated in the Northeast, rv parks are not. But the Northeast, as you guys may know, it's becoming aggressive in terms of rent cost of living. Most people can't afford it.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people are actually moving out of their houses, selling their house, moving out of their apartments and buying a trailer and buying a truck or a super or something like that and what they're doing. You can get a trailer that can fit a family of five for $105 a month what? And then you can get into an RV park for the pay on the quality of it for somewhere between $6 to $1,1,200 a month. But then for that same family to get a three-bed in Boston it's like four grand, three grand. If you go to Manchester, new Hampshire, it's $2,500, $2,200, $1,900, something like that. You're saving so much money and living in an RV compared to an apartment.
Speaker 1:So a lot of people are doing that transfer. So it's like an alternative housing product. But most people don't view it like that because it's like 82% or 83% of RV parks are owned by mom and pop operators in New England and they use it to supplement their lifestyle and go to Florida for like seven months out of the year. But most of the parks that we run we try to transition it into a year-round campground and then, when you force the values, you're buying a campground that has 200 sites at $10,000 a pad. You try to then probably put in like 30 to 40 year-round sites and then $1,000 a month. You're adding over a seven-month period I think it's like 280 grand of revenue and then you're probably adding like $2 or $3 million of value.
Speaker 3:Tell me about like the economics of, like the acquisition, the construction cost and like the time frame from which you purchased a property, do your value add and do your cash out refinance. What are the numbers look like? How long does it take?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I'll use our first RV park as an example. It was 1.55 for 54 pads, which 19 were year-round. So we went in. So there's a seasonal rate. So the seasonal rate was like $700 a month. We increased it during the winter to like 950 and then during the summer 1160. So from like a gross revenue standpoint, we brought from 430,000 to 730,000.
Speaker 3:Holy moly.
Speaker 1:And then the NOI was 330 after year one of operation, wow yeah. So at a 10 cap, 3.3 million, we doubled the value of the park, holy crap. So and we only did like $100K of Cat-Bex.
Speaker 3:You bought 50 cents on a dollar. Yeah, that's unbelievable.
Speaker 1:So the $100K of Cat-Bex was really, was actually really funny. It was building like some kind of gazebo for people to like gather around. Yeah, pickin' tables, pickin' tables stuff like that and then paving the road, that's it, that's it. But then, like some of our other parks that we're buying, like we're adding sites.
Speaker 3:Before you jump to that, I'm so curious, like what did you do with that? How long did it take you from doing 400 to 790? 730. 7th, how long did it take you to do that? 12 months, 12 months, yeah, almost doubled. And what did you? Did you go to the bank?
Speaker 1:and refinance. Yeah, we refinance out the first 12 months and the crazy thing, we got floating rate interest. So by time we were refinancing was like 14%.
Speaker 3:There's still cash flowing. You know, I mean you're building to like a, like a 20.
Speaker 1:What knows it what?
Speaker 3:kind of yield did you build it to your 790 netting 3?
Speaker 1:No, I yeah 3, 3, 30, 3, 20, something like that. No, but the thing is like the cash flow was was like 150 grand and we raised 600, 650, something like that. So it's like a 25% cash on cash.
Speaker 3:What are your investors getting on on their, on their money?
Speaker 1:So so we've refinanced. So we got screwed by the appraisal a little bit because we didn't realize that the appraiser was going to take the sellers information. Our information average it together, so we should just tell them that we didn't have it. But we would have been able to do a full cash out when we return 60% of the money, mm-hmm. But from a cash on cash perspective, we probably gave them like 15 to 18%, I think of their original investment.
Speaker 1:No, no 60% of their original investment got it and then from like a cash flow perspective, it's like 18 to 16, 18% like that I don't know the number off top of my head.
Speaker 3:That's fantastic.
Speaker 1:But yeah, from like from your conventional multifamily. You know you're stabilizing at like 12. Yeah sometimes 10. Yeah, exactly and then your eye, I think. I think we decide to sell like we could do a second refinance, probably in the next two years and your investors are totally okay with just staying forever yeah, that's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cuz we told them that you know the whole, the seven to ten years. We told them the refinancers and to be your three, mmm did it in a third of the time they love you guys exactly. You know, at the other day, it's like it's a situation where, you know, we like to under promise and over deliver. Sure, but most of the time when we're underwriting these RV parks, we're stabilizing our investors at 20% cash on cash.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but ours, the way we do, is 8% preff, 5050 split. Okay, but it's because we operate a low-fee model. It's like we only do an acquisition fee, and that's it.
Speaker 3:You don't charge it. Do you do property management fees at all?
Speaker 1:So the property management fees is like, of course, a part of the operating the asset. So it's not like an asset management fee where you're doing a meeting on top of exactly. So like there would be a company doing the property management, no matter what. But the reason why we do it is because we can reduce our cost.
Speaker 1:You're gonna do a significantly better than they are exactly bees. We're actually invested in the investors right in their return. If we don't do that, then it's a situation where the investors aren't really earning the return that they want and the Property managers just gonna continue to milk the property for money.
Speaker 3:How the hell did you get into learning RV parks, dude?
Speaker 1:So me, my business partner Carl, we actually moved into the RV park.
Speaker 3:For that's what you have to do honestly. Yeah, if you really want to learn the game, you have to be there.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it came with a single family house, an A frame, and so Came with two beds and then that was where the the office was, but him and I actually moved into the park. We operated the park so we dealt with I dealt with like Leaky waterline, so I would dig up the actual dirt, repair the waterline ourselves. So, like the thing is, we get really hands-on Mm-hmm compared to a lot of other syndicators and operators where they just hire someone to do it. Sure, it's, you know it's, it's, it's good. But, like, the investors want to make sure that you know that you really want to make sure that they're earning the return that you're promising. Right, if you don't, then you. If I hired him, I don't know. At the end of the day, it's like the manager of the parks should be handy, but any little thing that comes up, if, like you, if you need to repair, like a replace a breaker in the Like, there's pedestals, each RV hooks up to this pedestal.
Speaker 1:There's a 20 amp, a 30 amp and a 50 amp with a shore, essentially exactly. So that's where they plug in, and then sometimes what ends up happening is they they pop because you know they're older and they just haven't been replaced in a while.
Speaker 2:So like RVs pulling more power than the breaker exactly.
Speaker 1:So what ends up happening is like if you get an electrician, do it. They'll charge you like 500 to a thousand dollars per breaker. I can last summer they probably probably about 20 pot, wow. So like, at the end of the day it's like electricians, they make it, they make out like bandits and you're just gonna continue out out. You know put money, you know out right when an actual your manager really just be Fixing it because it's it's.
Speaker 1:It's really simple. It's like literally you unscrew something. You unscrew something, pop it out, put it back in, screw it in. You know that's very much it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's incredible man. I am a good buddy of mine that did the same exact thing. He he's like a contrarian investor he's always finding where there's opportunity for cap rate compression and rent growth.
Speaker 3:Where there's there's like a break in the supply and demand equilibrium, yeah, and RV parks, mobile homes the bottom line is is that the country has an affordability issue? Yep, and it's only gonna get worse and worse and worse. And so when you're finding a niche asset where, where you know renters are gonna move to and you know Institutional capital is gonna start acquiring, you got the best of both worlds.
Speaker 3:Yeah when you build, when you build that billion dollar portfolio, when you exit, chances are you're gonna exit significantly more than a billion. Hopefully, hopefully. But um, it's, it's, it's. It's just so ballsy of you to go out and fucking do that, bro. Yeah, it's, I commend you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:But like the one thing that, like not a lot of people are realizing is that the institutional capital hasn't Got an inch the RV park space yet, like like they have, but they haven't you know, for you how far off are we?
Speaker 1:I'd probably say we're like. They're like we're starting to get approached by private equity firms like partner with us. But thing is, the reason why they can't do it themselves and they want to partner with us is because the purchase prices are too small, most part like the. So there's, there's a hospitality like outdoor hospitality Industry report. It's OHI industry report. You can easily look it up. It's like the average RV park is 105 pads. We're buying pads between 15 to like $30,000 a pad, mm-hmm. So at 105, let's say, 100 pads. At $30,000 pad, that's 3 million. Most of them want like a $5 million plus because they're raising like a $200 million fund. Right, think about like this like guys, we have our first RV park acquisition. What's purchase price Million? They're gonna laugh you out the fucking room, right it's not gonna be good.
Speaker 1:It's not gonna be good. And so, that being said, you have to make sure, like operators like us, where we're rolling them up rolling them up, you want to, you want to make sure that you're finding them before he's most likely. What you're gonna do is, once you, once I, get to 20 RV parks, they're gonna buy it for like four million dollars a park. You know $80 million purchase price. If it hits their return metrics, that's all they care about, because they're raising this fund and they have to spend the money right and right now, like a lot of people, like one of the groups that we were approached by about a year ago, they haven't even bought their first part and we have five, and so, like the reason why they have a body's because they haven't found the right one, the purchase price too small, because there's not a lot of larger institutional level parks, and the reason why we like New England so much because the purchase price are so much smaller and there's a scarcity. There's a scarcity aspect of the of the market, or the of the market in New England, because Land is expensive, labor is expensive, zoning laws are super robust and you can't actually get through them. So then you have. You have to buy the pre-existing parks. But in the south you go build them as much as you want.
Speaker 1:I see I'm a part of like so many different Facebook groups and they're building them Like candy, it's like pets, it's like one coming. I see I see one person like oh, we're building 20 sites now in the process of building another hundred and fifty 20 sites. Yeah, 20 sites. Well, like the thing is like mostly people are building like 20 pad RV parks with no amenities. All the parks that we're buying have some kind of amenity package or water feature.
Speaker 1:He's like they're like more family campgrounds. Because, think about it, like this, you have like a blue collar family. The guy's a plumber, you know he has two kids, a wife. You know they can't afford like a vacation to Indonesia or Bali or you know a Super luxurious five star resort in Costa Rica or something like that. But because they have to consistently work, because the more work they do, the higher, the more money they make, right, so they have to be close by. So if you try to find these campgrounds where they're like two hours away, where their family can go to during the summer and so they'll stay there for the entire summer. It's a cheaper alternative for, like, a summer vacation destination because you'll pay like seven grand for the summer, all cost in, and you won't have to worry about utility. You won't have to worry about insurance costs for like a house, mortgage, mortgage, principal and insurance. You won't have to worry about your repairs to maintenance, landscaping and a bunch of other things. Like you know, your costs are gonna be fixed.
Speaker 3:I love that, man. Like you know that this is a high barrier to entry market. Yeah, they're not building any more RV parks in New England, it's, it's dev. Your You're hitting all the spots that make this a great asset class. And, honestly, if I, if I could, I don't have the time to even consider, because doing another shiny object, I mean I I swore it off every other business, but, man, you really found something special. It's kind of like comparable to doing Airbnb's in In New Jersey, where it's illegal. Yeah right, like it's not illegal, but like there's a lot of regulation and red tape.
Speaker 3:Yeah but the the returns that you're seeing are just so much better from a cash flow perspective. Then then long-term rentals, multifamily, single family rentals I mean you're getting a cat if you get a cash on cash return of like 10 to 12 percent on on a on a multifamily deal. So you're you're kicking ass, yeah. But to even imagine something like a larger asset class where you could deploy two, three million dollars and get 25, 30 percent is Is incredible. We got to talk after because I want to, I want to, I want to raise some capital for you guys.
Speaker 1:I think I can sell this. Honestly like that's why we're like we're starting to explore like blind funds, because typically most of our deals that we do are just like one-offs. Like we explore, like right now, like I don't know, three weeks ago we closed on two parks, mm-hmm but like we did like a joint raise where it's two different sellers, but like we raised like 1.7 million and then it was like 40% of the capital went to one park. You know, 6% of the capital went to the other part kind of annoying.
Speaker 1:But it is annoying. But the thing is it's super interesting because, like there were term profiles of both deals combined it's just so much stronger than them separately interesting. Well, first, the first deal. It was a 1.9 million dollar purchase for 24 pads year-round on a lake with two single family houses. But the thing is that's super interesting as we negotiated 10 years principal, only $550,000 dollar. No, un, unsecured, yeah, unsecured promise right now, dude, that's unbelievable. The rest of it went to the bank, so 1.35 million dollar purchase, and then it wasa. Praisel came back at 1.6.
Speaker 3:You bought it for free. Yeah no money out.
Speaker 1:No, no, it was money out. It was like like we raised like 700k for it. Jesus, like after closing me, like 250,000 dollars of like capital left. Wow, because they changed the leverage on us, they went from.
Speaker 3:Was at 1.6.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:Where were you at with the project now?
Speaker 1:Yeah, pretty much. We closed on it two weeks ago. We're doing a little bit of value add. We're like Integrating all this because, like, rv parks are like management intensive. They're not like multi-family, where you're like you do your value add, you raise the rents, you, you know, do some landscaping to pay on the billing size, and then a roof repair, replacing the windows right, interior renovation no, it's like it's technically RV parks. The way we view them is like it's a hotel, but the guests are bringing their room right and so, that being said, you know you have to do like we're probably gonna pave some roads, we're gonna increase the rates, we're gonna go from like 950 to I Think we're gonna go to like 1175, but there's multiple different types of rates. So, if you there's something called the a seasonal contract. So a seasonal contract, what it is, it's giving the guest a, a license or permit to, a permit to give them the right to use the land. They're not tenants, their guests. So they disobey the rules, they don't pay. I can kick them out in eight hours.
Speaker 3:Eight hours, eight hours less.
Speaker 1:Wow, if you have a good relationship with the cops, just call them like they're trespassing, I mean like you, I mean you're New England.
Speaker 2:You have against of crazy winners like how much does snow removal cost to a year?
Speaker 1:Oh that. So we had some fun with plowing ourselves. But no, no, no, but the thing is like it depends. So like, some of the parks will probably cost like $200 a push, but thing is like, you know, the landscaping and plowing budget went from 7,000 20,000 and we were still stabilizing like a 22% cash cash. Wow yeah.
Speaker 3:That's phenomenal. What kind of yield do you usually stabilize at yield on cost?
Speaker 1:What do you mean by yield on cost?
Speaker 3:like the total. So like all your purchase price, your soft caught, like your closing fault costs, your holding costs, your renovation, all the money that it took to get that project stabilized, right, that's your Denominator. And then your net. Your net operating income is your way. I'm sorry, that's your, that's your. Yeah, your net operating firm is a not nominator. And then all your costs to get that project stabilized is your denominator. So, no, I divided by all your costs.
Speaker 1:That's a good question. I would say let's put it, I guess, in a cap rate perspective.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's basically the same thing, yeah, stable stabilizing it like 12, 12, 13, wow, something like that and like what do you think you could exit these things, that Like, if you bundle up a?
Speaker 1:portfolio To like a private equity shop. Yeah, seven, seven. Yeah, holy crap, seven. Maybe a it they, their return metrics are more like, I think, from from our conversation, if I remember correctly, with me and my partner Ben, we were at like eight percent unlevered. So, yeah, eight percent unlevered, so like a cap like an exit to them up.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:So that's all they wanted. But if it was like a value add, you probably go like seven. If you could show that there were Places getting higher rates than you, mm-hmm, you probably go like seven.
Speaker 3:That's amazing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I had. Like I had someone try to Sell me a three, six cab because they're like our projected income. Oh no, that's stupid. That's no, I never buy that right, yeah, what, um?
Speaker 3:what are your biggest hurdles for growth? It's an operational Acquisition. Is it deal flow or the capital?
Speaker 1:So the one thing that we got really good at from like the whole sampling business was finding the deals. So, like we can. It's like, for instance, like we're working with this group of investment bankers that want to like they're all buddies, they all want to just kind of just buy assets, but don't have time because they have finnary responsibilities, right. So, that being said, what they really want to do is work with someone like us, deploy the capital with us, bring all their Buddies in and then just kind of forget about it, wow. So, that being said, like they are looking, you know we can easily have the deal flow. They're bringing the capital capitals like the biggest constraint Because, like that's something that we didn't get, I guess get good at initially. Now we're like focusing on, like building that up because, like we have such good deal, flow is just more about just pairing the right investors with the with the deals got you, got you up it.
Speaker 3:Capital is a pain in the ass. Oh yeah but if it gets easier and easier and easier as time goes on. Yeah, you got VP clients that came in for 50 grand the first time around. Mm-hmm, you, you crush it for them. You return their money two years faster than you projected and and give them a 15% cash on cash. Yeah 18% cash on. They are begging to come back with with a hundred grand next time around, yeah, and 200 grand next time around. So it's the. The investors definitely have a lifetime value.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm as opposed to a wholesale deal where it's a one-and-done transaction sellers and, I think, the game of like.
Speaker 3:I'll give you an example my first two million dollar capital raise, I almost like jumped off the the bridge, bro. It was so difficult, oh my god. And then we had an eight million dollar capital raise. That was Just as eat, just as hard, right, but it was four times. It was four times more the next time around, mm-hmm. And now all my investors, now that we're crushing it for them, are like Dave I, you know, my mom wants to get involved my dad might we got 300 grand this year.
Speaker 3:When are you gonna have another deal? So it definitely gets easier over time. What I'm. What are you doing to source your, your deal flow? What's your strategy?
Speaker 1:So we, actually we just recently got like an, like an intern to that was I go say like UMass Amherst.
Speaker 3:Hmm, smart kid.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so he, he's really intrigued when we told him if we close the deal, we'll give him 10 grand. You're just like okay, but like it is really freaking persistent, you know for sure. Um, no, so like the way that we source our deals, like Like it's very easy, like now, since we own parks. We can like the park that we source. That one that got the appraisal for one, six we bought for like one, three, five to the bank. That one I cold called and I was like yeah.
Speaker 1:I own the park 40 minutes away from you. I'm interested in the park. They're like oh, you own this park, that's fantastic, let's meet and then Is is really simple. Most of these people it's like you think about, it's like their mom-pop operators Sometimes the park has been in the family for decades and generations.
Speaker 1:you know, so their kids don't want it or they don't have kids, and so it's like, like Cody Sanchez always has, like all these baby boomers or these older individuals that are looking to get out of their businesses, these quote-unquote, boring businesses. They want to sell it, but not a lot of people want to buy it or know how to buy it or know that they're even available.
Speaker 1:Rv parks are like a boring business, plus real estate you know, it's the reason why it's, because it is a business, because it's it's like you're running a hospitality company, but it's also real estate, because the underlying real estate that's providing, like the, I guess, where people are parking, you know, or like staying, for sure.
Speaker 3:Yeah, hotels, airbnb, it's not. It's like almost not real estate at all. Yeah, it's incredibly difficult.
Speaker 2:Oh my god. Yeah, I mean for me the tough the. What I wanted to ask you about is like, like, what goes into you, like marketing your your parks, right, like so that's like the biggest thing. You have to have a draw, or else you're not making any money, mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:The reason why RV parks in New England are so unique is because Most of them have been around for decades. You're seeing like legacy.
Speaker 2:Customers Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:So, like one of the second park that we bought, that we bought seller financing, it was like five and a half percent interest, interest only, and then it goes to like six percent after year three, that park, we only put 12 percent down. We raised like 400k. We raised the rates from like twenty hundred a season to like 4100 this this upcoming summer.
Speaker 2:But I mean, it's not like traditional real estate. It's not like you're like renting an apartment, right, like your people are going vacation. They're like renting from you, so they're googling RV parks in like New England. I thought, right, but you're saying that there's a ton of like People who have been coming to this campgrounds for 10, 15, 20 years with their family every year.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, so pretty much like the way it works. Is that our business partner Carl? Yeah, so like. That's why it's like I'm very happy I have business partners because I don't really have to worry about it. But we hire, like a marketing agency, yeah, and they'll do it, or he'll like he, he does all, like the website development and everything like that. But like the fact that we have, the fact that we have a Pre-existing customer base that has been coming there for 30, 40 years, they you don't really have to like spend a lot of money on marketing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's almost like a hedge against your value that you already have people coming and then like, as you, spruce up the property and make it more. Nice exciting and nice. So when people do a quick Google search or like oh, like, this is good as well, right, then the rates are justifiable exactly, but then you have like the.
Speaker 1:The one thing that's super unique is, like, with the Like, when, like your customer base, you're, they know that you're gonna raise the rates. But all you just have to do is like, what do you want? See, what do you want in the park, like, do you want, do you want a slide, like a water slide, like for the kids, or do you want like a, a water trampoline, if the part, if the park is on the lake, pretty much so they go out Trampoline all day long and then, you know, swim back to shore. Or do you want an arcade, like? The guests are literally gonna tell you exactly what they want. Well, you have to do just implement it. You just have to be a good, active listener and just ask them, like, the right questions. If you ask them the right questions, you'll then end up being able to just say I'm adding this to the park this year, your rates going up to this, they'll pay it.
Speaker 3:What's the retention rate If you jack up rents by like 30 40%? Okay, yeah how many of the existing clients come back the following season?
Speaker 1:So the park that I was mentioning, where we went from 2800 to 4100, six people left. That's it out of a hundred holy crap yeah, so like 94%.
Speaker 2:That's incredible yeah what kind of value I did you that specific one.
Speaker 3:Oh.
Speaker 1:Did you do, john? We just revamped the common area in terms of that we epoxy the floors. No, no but we did a lot like we did like decent landscaping projects, but like that's pretty much it. We spent like a hundred grand doing that and then Sounds like a great.
Speaker 3:Here's a thing you're not like they can't find a better park. I Mean that at a cheaper rate Then what you're trying to renew that.
Speaker 1:But also it's like Sometimes these RV parks, these families have been there for 40 years. Sentimental value no, not even that thing about. Like this you buy a trailer 40 years ago. It's like your grandma buys it, you, you, your grandma, your grandpa buys it. You go into the RV park and then they build a structure around it you can't leave. Thing is we want people to leave with the structure, so then we can easily have more. They built a structure.
Speaker 2:Yeah so it's like a house.
Speaker 3:Oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've seen they're not going anywhere.
Speaker 3:I've seen that before. Let me ask you a question, bro. You've you've now been in RV business for some time, yep, and you've you've been successful in your value-added strategy. You picked a nice market, yep, I. What are you looking for in an RV park deal before you go into escrow?
Speaker 1:great question. So I Would say the top three things that we're looking for. You need a water feature, you need a pool, you need something like that because it's like one of the most highly recommended things in any RV park. But getting a pool approved in New England is one of the hardest things, I think. So we just look for a water feature. We look at comps so like, if we see an RV park similar aesthetic, similar, probably about you know, higher rates We'll try to see how much we can actually increase that by. And then what are the amenities that those parks have that we don't, that we can easily bring to? So it makes the goal obtainable. And then I always underwrite that we're going to get to those rates by year, four or five.
Speaker 3:Gotcha. I'm able to do that so pretty pretty Exactly. So that's really smart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, then you again under promise over delivery amazing.
Speaker 3:Okay, so on the wholesale side of things, yep, because of me and Jared run acquisitions and marketing.
Speaker 3:Mm-hmm sales and marketing. So, like our entire day is about data, getting the best phone numbers right, the most efficient way to get in contact with owners, yep, and convert them through the sales cycle. So till we have a deal in escrow right and and for residential real estate, it's, there's so many data providers out there and this it's so readily available. But what I'm assuming for RV parks, because it's so niche that the data, is it not? It is not an easy, it's not easy to acquire that this data and market to them. Am I wrong? Yeah, you're pretty wrong, I'm pretty. Wow, it's readily available.
Speaker 1:It's readily available.
Speaker 2:It's called a Google listing. Right like hey, can I speak to the owner?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he's like oh what. Yeah, most of them are owned by mom, pop-up or you just go. Google them. So he's like, let's say, for instance, one of our RV parks, one of our RV parks called Field and Stream RV Park.
Speaker 3:This is amazing.
Speaker 1:You call the number, like, hey, my name is John. You know, I own a couple of RV parks in the area. I was just curious if you were the owner of the park. And they're like yeah, I am. And you're like, oh, would you ever be interested in saying, though, they tell you just, you know, show off, yeah, yeah. Or they're like, yes, you know as pretty much it. And then you have a nice conversation. Now, since I own RV parks, it's very easy. Hmm, like, if you don't own RV park, the car, you're like, oh, is this the owner? They're like, yeah, who wants? Who wants to know? You tell them exactly who you are. They're like Shut off. Right. If you tell them like I own this RV park, you only want to say like one or two, maybe a couple, you know I own a couple of RV parks in New England Then they'll be pretty interested to have a conversation with you. That's exactly how my conversation went with the one that we bought for 1.35. With the other 550.
Speaker 1:So, I carry I just told my own the RV parts like we're actually looking to sell our park because they had again like they were suffering health issues health issues, and so the person I was trying to buy it was trying to drag them through the mud for like zoning to get condos approved, because it's on a lake, so like it's gonna crush us condos, it'll crush us condos, but they were no. No, we want to run as a RV park and that's it, and then, to be honest, that we'll look at that as he exit, potentially oh my gosh but if not, we'll just continue.
Speaker 1:Runs RV park. It's gonna do fine because, like, we own the park next door and they had one rate for the park that we bought. So Finding the people is very easy. It's just about just having the conversation. Telling them exactly what you own is Like the hard part. So, like the RV parks it's, they're like, they're just Think about like it's, just like a especially because some of these mom and pops have known who their competition were for years.
Speaker 2:Right, exactly like oh, you own the same business as me.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna have a car like a friendlier conversation with you. They know you're some random dude calling me from a private equity firm like I kiss my LOS.
Speaker 1:Exactly, you'll like. You'll show up, like I show up to all my meetings and like boots, cargo pants and a hoodie, right, right, right. Well, you get t-shirts. You're just one of them, exactly like that being said, like if you do that, you know they're gonna be very open to having the conversation. How?
Speaker 3:many RV parks are you marketing to right now? How many in your market?
Speaker 1:There's only. I think there's like 600 plus in New England. So like Vermont, new Hampshire, mass, connecticut, rhode Island, maine, most of them are in Maine.
Speaker 1:Hmm, these like Maine's like a very scenic place, but only 600, only sixes, six to 800, something like that, like I think in the. Actually, I don't know how many RV parks are in the in the entire country. We're only focused on New England because, if us focusing on New England is very important, because it's our backyard Yep, I can drive to every single one of my RV parks in less than two hours. It's freaking awesome.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like, so you hire this intern to start prospecting and sourcing deal flow? Mm-hmm, I Almost feel like, because the there's so little data available that it's imperative for someone at your, your sales ability to be the one doing the reach, the outreach, do you?
Speaker 1:disagree. I think it's more like a situation where it's just like you just asked, you just tell him like oh, you know, I don't really know is yes, but no, because, like most of so, like sometimes people are like Fuck off, you are trying to steal my park.
Speaker 2:Mmm.
Speaker 1:He's a thing You're part of, like some corporate entity, right, I think it's like I want to say really corporate. It's like we're young individuals interested in, like the industry like we each have our own connection to it.
Speaker 1:Like Carl, he had a super wild back and he put down all like the seats and then built like a bed frame. It's where, to God, you build a bed frame and he has like a little kitchen set up with a hot plate and he'll go to like he'll go camping in like a national force. He loves this stuff. Ben, he hiked the Appalachian Trail, half of it or something like that. He liked the Appalachian Trail and he's like a mountain man, alex, he does a lot of tensing with like his like fiance In New England and then I went to like a sleepaway camp in the Adirondack Mountains of New York. Oh that's and then, yeah, and that's pretty much my connection to like camping. Right, so we all have a like connection to camping. We all like the industry because we've be as like I had some of my best experiences camping, I love camping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like credible if you can like explain like your connection it's just not like I'm looking for something profitable Then all these people are in, tell you to screw off. But if you tell them that you know your background and like the reason why you're interested in potentially buying their park and it's good.
Speaker 3:Can I check? Can I say it like? You've said it like in so many different ways throughout this conversation in this podcast, about how important it is to build trust? Yes, and Trust beats. Report every single and you work a bill. Report exactly your polite, you smile, you do a little bit of mirroring that's report.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but trust doesn't come until you are vulnerable, mm-hmm. You're authentic, yeah, and you're in transparent, and that's the only way to do it. So if you could tell a story like I was in Adirondack or my partner does loves going camping, he trip what. Once you're able to connect on a deeper level, like that, the deal becomes so much easier. The guard goes down and it's like oh, I'm just dealing with my, what are my buddies? Yeah, but as a private equity firm like, oh, I'm this big guy that wants to buy all these parks, it, it very, very honestly, very rarely works, even in my business, right, like we, we present ourselves as private equity because we are, we are private equity, but it, it's not the company that gets to deal, it's the person. Yep, it's building that trust, building that, that relationship and and people like working with people. It's not, it's never be to be in in in acquisitions unless you're working through a broker. It's always like you're, you're just trying to make a like a lifelong friend.
Speaker 1:Exactly, but the one thing is like when you're working through because, like we, we do get deals through brokers. Don't get me wrong. I'm not gonna say we don't yeah, and we go direct sell all the time, like the brokers, like one broker that we know that does a lot of campground sales in New England Is she, you know, worked one of the private equity groups that approached us. Mm-hmm, they put 10 parks under contract, didn't close a single one.
Speaker 3:Oh, wow, oh. They burned the bridge in New England. They're never coming back.
Speaker 1:No, but the thing is like they're constantly trying to like figure it out. The thing is like a lot of like if you think about like how thorough is your due diligence?
Speaker 2:Pretty thorough.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so like the thing is with RV parks, like you have to be thorough, but also you have to be like what are some like areas? You can cut corners, but like because they don't you know. No, you know because, like the areas that you're cutting corn is because there's no information.
Speaker 2:You trust. It's like blind trust a little bit yeah a little bit, but it's also a P&L's are garbage.
Speaker 1:And no, no that, but also think about it like this, like you are a mom-pop operator, right? You don't think about oh how am I gonna?
Speaker 1:reduce my taxable income. You're not thinking about like how to like mitigate your taxes, tax liability and stuff like that. You're like, okay, I'm gonna go to Florida. You only have one card. You know it's your business card. You're gonna swipe it like it's your job and your life and you get groceries, you're gonna go out the dinner, you're gonna buy gifts or do this. You can do that, right. Next thing you know you're doing all this stuff and so on your P&L it's gonna show that you're like minus 70 grand, right. So you have to be able to dissect their business, their, their P&L's, but also like from a due diligence standpoint. Like I combed through three years of bank statements, wow. So how long does that take you?
Speaker 3:Like a week to each just dialed in, just look through it.
Speaker 1:But then you have also a situation I combed through the bank statements, I combed through their actual paper expenses, I combed through receipts. So, like you have to like really get thorough in the due diligence. I I do like a financial audit. Technically that's the way. Like we're buying this one park that all their records are not digital.
Speaker 2:Forensic accounting. Yeah, literally.
Speaker 1:It's literally like boxes.
Speaker 3:Dude, that's insane.
Speaker 1:This is like they had like 10 boxes.
Speaker 3:Bankers boxes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so I would like I went to there, I went to the park, I went to like the basement of their office. Yeah there was like 10 or 20 of them and it was like 2019, 2020, 2021, 2022, 2023 and I and I, literally, you get to literally comb through every single one, but again, like, that's like being extremely thorough.
Speaker 1:Yeah again like but then there are some you, once you like I've underwritten, like some of these park, you have to like if you realize like if you're gonna increase occupancy, you're electric. It's not like with multi-family where when you're underwriting it, I'm gonna increase the rents but your common area utility isn't gonna really increase that much. Right, play with parks. You're gonna have to like figure out a ratio associated with year zero, or like the as is income, and then take that ratio and then put it to year one, got it your two because you're increasing the occupancy and you're increasing the revenue. Right, right, right. But if you do that and let's say, for instance, like you're off, let's say the ratio is from 11 to 8. You save 3% on expenses, so you're beating the underwriting right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's amazing, bro. So what are your goals over the next? I Know you said you want to get to a billion. How long? How long? How will that take you?
Speaker 1:So I would say multi-family or pride you like, I'll probably say we'll probably end up doing like seven to eight hundred million of multi-family and then the rest will probably be RV parks. So I probably say that'll take us, like you seven years, seven years she's.
Speaker 3:She's thinking 2030, 2030 no 20 30 one. 20 30 one. Yeah, that's when my goals are killer 20 30, 20, 30 ones in all my passwords.
Speaker 2:Don't tell me that recorded on a podcast. Cut that out of them, but they'll never guess.
Speaker 3:They'll never guess. It's got too many, too many symbols. So a billion in AUM, 7800 in multi to 300 in RV parks yeah, what's the? What's the strategic plan to get to that point?
Speaker 1:I would say, just find it's like we're not like at the end day. Like you understand, we all understand in this room that like you have to do it with a group of people you can't just be a one man or one woman army. You have to do it with everyone that's looking to one common goal, and how you're gonna get there.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so pretty much I would say that we are no how you're gonna get to a billion like what's, what's the plan to get to that point.
Speaker 1:I would just say, just trying to find the right people to actually work with, because if you don't, if you can't find those right people, you're gonna have you're gonna have a lot of struggles because there's because RV parks are operationally intensive multifamily it's just really about capital, because to buy a 20 unit building at 100k a pop, you're at, like you know, 500 million, 500 thousand on a raise, after acquisition fees, operating costs on so forth. So like you're gonna be, actually you're gonna be a little bit higher with more, with RV parks a little bit different. So it's like capital and then find the right people to work with that's.
Speaker 3:That's honestly the bottom line. Yep, it's all relational, mm-hmm. It's by people over capital, like I'm. I'm now seeing the fruits, like six years into business, of the relationships I built ten years ago when I was showing up to networking events when I was 19. Yeah, right, they these.
Speaker 3:When you do right by everybody and you find people that are swimming in the same direction, you just never know, yeah, how that person will come into your life, whether it's a deal, whether it's a partner, whether they help, whether they bring some capital to the table, or they might be listen to his podcast and say, hey, dude, I want to learn about RV parks and hit you up and ask for a job, right, but if you, if you're surrounded by the right people, on on as partners and as your friends and even the people that you employ, it's probably one of the most important thing ever is hiring great, freaking talent.
Speaker 3:Yeah, then there's then the sky's the limit. I was. I was with one of my mentors, phil. He runs, um, he runs a really, really successful business. He does about 50 million in revenue. He's gonna be billionaire. I know for a fact. He's doing crazy stuff all throughout California and he went to this Laila Hermazes like never like a conference, yeah and everyone in the room was an eight-figure entrepreneur 40, 50 million dollars and Laila goes up there she goes.
Speaker 3:Every single point of you guys are incredibly successful. Do you want to know my one secret to buying your company and turning into a nine figure business and selling? It was like you could hear a pin drop no one had an answer.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it's recruitment, it's hiring great people all the time and being surrounded by them, like I, honestly, I think, as a company right now, if we didn't hire great people in the middle of last year, we would have been up shits Creek. The fact that we got Jared here in this room right now, I mean, I cannot even imagine a world without, without Jared right now. This company would not reach its peak. Without Jared right now, yeah, we would not be hitting any of our deal flow or revenue targets without Jared right now. Right, and so just being surrounded by great people is probably the best, best advice that anyone could get as an entrepreneur. If you're surrounded by great people, you're gonna you're gonna fucking dominate in any industry that you are in. Dude, we're gonna wrap this podcast up. If the people want to find you, the people want to reach you. John, what's the best way to get in contact?
Speaker 1:my LinkedIn or my Instagram one. My Instagram is pretty much John T Mansour, just my name. Thank you so much, so much appreciate it.
