EP 09: The Importance Of Friendship In Life - PART 2

Why do meaningful friendships matter more than ever?

In this episode of WTF with Ellen Long, Jackie and Ellen dive into the complexities of friendship, social capital, and the courage it takes to maintain a real human connection.

They explore:
• How friendships create opportunities and support beyond money
• The importance of showing up and staying present
• Why difficult conversations can strengthen relationships
• The concept of “eating the frog”, addressing hard issues instead of avoiding them
• How genuine connection impacts both personal and professional growth

This episode is a reminder that some of the most valuable investments we make are in the people who walk through life with us.

Watch now and join the conversation.

Follow us on Instagram: @wtf_womentalkfinance | Spotify, YouTube & Apple Podcasts: WTF! Women Talk Finance | The Founders Office: foundersoffice.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

I'm Jackie. I'm Candid. And this is WTF.

SPEAKER_03 0:05

Grab your coffee, wine, water bottle, emotional support snack, no judgment, and let's get into it.

SPEAKER_01 0:13

Okay, welcome back to WTF Women Talk Finance. And today, a capital F um, a different word than finance. We are leveraging a conversation around finance into social capital and social capital into friendship. And we have an expert, um, an author, a speaker, a true friend on friendship here with us today. And we're gonna dive in and hear all about how friendship is social capital and probably one of the most important forms of social capital. So um where do we want to start, Ellen?

SPEAKER_02 0:49

Ooh, um let's start with the capital side. I think it's something I've been thinking about a lot, where uh when we think about finance, we think about finance as something that we use as a resource to live the life that we want, right? And I've been thinking a lot about my life philosophy. And I've come down to, I really feel like life is about purpose and people. When you look at all the studies on what makes us happy, you know, you could talk about gratitude and all these things, but really at the end of the day, it's pointing to am I living the life that I really want to live with the people that I want to be around? Um, I was just reading the book Five Regrets of the Death of Um People Who Basically Were on Their Deathbeds. And what are the top five regrets? They're all around purpose and people. In fact, number four is I wish I would have spent more time with my friends.

SPEAKER_03 1:40

I think that's so profound because I think there's a lot of times that money that the financial aspects of things hold us back from doing those relationship building, friendship building things, and those are those are the things you regret. Is that I mean, is that kind of what you're saying?

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Yeah, 100%. Like if you think about life is really an allocation of resources to something, right? So I think we get stuck in building up resources, like building up money and building up energy, like we got all these biohackers going crazy. Um, but what are we building up our energy? What are we building up our money for? All of it is okay, these are all resources, but what are we using our resources for? So the reason why I love friendship is because to me, it's the one capital that actually also brings happiness. Um, and I also think it's hilarious, all these biohackers, because if you're if you experience loneliness or depression or any of those things, it's as bad as smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Loneliness.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

And then what's the point in living? You know, like I remember my grandfather when he was, I don't know, 86, 87, like on his birthday, was like, happy birthday, grandpa. And he's like, Oh, thanks, sis, you know, kind of feeling sad for old Ricky today. All my friends are gone. That was his response on a birthday. If you don't have the thing that really adds the nourishment and the depth and the connection in your life, what why biohack to get five years if you're gonna spend those five years lonely?

SPEAKER_02 3:21

Exactly. So yeah. So yeah, I think it's um what I realized it's friendship is actually a part of my whole philosophy of life, which is if we're not living our purpose, and I and purpose for me could be taking care of your family. Like it doesn't have to be I'm changing the world, but it's like, what am I here for? Where am I spending my time and my energy? What's the point of all of that? And I just love friendship because friendship to me is one of the most fun and beautiful human relationships that we can have.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

Can you dive into a little bit more on this terminology? Obviously, we've talked to you a lot about this, but for some people, they may not be familiar with the term social capital. Can you dive a little bit more into that?

SPEAKER_02 4:03

Ooh, okay, yes, I love this. So, in a way that finances a capital, capital meaning what I think of social capital like this. In the same way that you can accumulate money capital, you can accumulate social capital. What do I mean by that? Uh, I can call Jackie and be like, hey, I'm having some legal problems. And I would really love for you. This is a true story, actually. I literally called Jackie and I was like, I'm having some legal problems. It would be really great if you could look at this contract. And social capital is yes, um, of course, immediately. She did it while she was in Bali. She probably did it like 2 a.m. Like who knows what time it was. So for me, social capital is it's also a resource, but it's so much more powerful. So to me, I I talk about friendship being when someone's really your friend, it's when you can pick up the phone and say, Hey, I need a favor, and they say yes immediately. What is it? And I have just seen friendship be such a huge return because to me, it can give you things that money can't get. So I think about money as like it can open the door to places, but friendship and the ability to make human connections is what can take it from, okay, I'm standing in the line to the nightclub. And to me, friendship is the one social capital that's like, oh, would you like to go to the front? Here's the red rope. Like, let me just take that offering and you go. So one of the probably in the best examples is I had to have an emergency surgery. Okay. So I'm in the ER and I'm calling like my friends who were doctors, and I had so many people help me that I would I went into the ER on Sunday night, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday, I met with three separate surgeons. I had the cell phone number of the surgeon that I ended up using, where I would just be like, Hey, I'm at the MRI, they say they need this thing. He's like, Oh yeah, I already rushed it for you. Don't worry about it. So it's stuff like that where you can't get that just from monetary access. You have to have some sort of human connection. So when I think about social capital, it's it's what have I given? So therefore I can get something in return. And people don't see it that way. So it was it was actually really interesting. I was at um an event and I was sitting next to a billionaire, which was really funny because I didn't know that and I was totally ignoring him the entire morning. And which I think he actually kind of loved, to be honest. And it was really funny because at the end of the day, we ended up like chatting and having this great time. He invited me to his house and he pulled me aside in the middle of this event at his house. And he was like, Ellen, you get it. I'm like, I do. What do I get? And he's like, We know the secret. I'm like, What's the secret? And he's like, Well, when you look at my career, everybody asked me about how did I make so much money? How did I build my business? All this kind of stuff. And he was like, Well, when everybody was networking, I was making friends. And then he looked at me and he said, Friendship was my edge. And I just want you to know that I never told anyone that because that was my edge. And he said, I think it's so cool that you know the secret and you've decided to tell everyone about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:01

I can't, I can't tell you how many jobs I've gotten and how many jobs I've helped friends get because of friendship. Um, and networking to me, as a classic introvert, networking to me has this like feel around it, like a resistance, like, no, uh, I I want to be at home. I don't want to be out talking to strangers, low-key selling myself, being interested in this surface level bullshit. I would rather make genuine, authentic friendships and then have that be my network. And I see a lot of young people, like it when a job market is tough, I think the tendency is to go to LinkedIn and start firing off applications. And I have spoken with people who are like, oh, I'm sending in 20 applications a day and I'm not hearing back. It's because those aren't those aren't real jobs that are gonna be your job, right? Um go to your network, go to your friend, go to your friend group and say, Hey guys, I'm here's what I'm looking for, here's what I need. Would love if you can give it some thought, connect me with some people.

SPEAKER_03 8:08

Yeah. Everyone I know who's recently made a career move was able to do so because of a personal connection. So I think you're totally spot on with that. I struggle, Ellen, with I'm not on LinkedIn. I'm really not on social. Um, I have like a social that I just use that I get random content delivered to me, but I don't post anything.

unknown 8:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 8:36

Um, and it's mostly how-to videos.

SPEAKER_01 8:39

You do send me spas, which I love spas.

SPEAKER_03 8:43

My algorithm is like gardening worm worm factory videos right now.

SPEAKER_01 8:49

Raccoons.

SPEAKER_03 8:50

A lot of raccoons, a lot of raccoons, how to attract them to you, how to lure them, and then retreats that the three of us are gonna go to and just hang out. Um, but it's obviously a work trip. Um I feel like we've gotten to this space. It feels like like when you meet somebody and they're like, what do you do? And somehow that's supposed to define who you are. And I feel like now that's just what social media is is this like fabricated version of yourself, and it's not how I want to build my relationships, but in in kind of removing myself, there is a little bit of isolation to that too. And so I'm still working to figure out the balance, and then we're hearing this like lonely epidemic right now, right? That's uh they're literally putting this terminology together like it, like it's a crisis. We're in crisis mode because people are so lonely. And I am curious how much of the tech and social pieces are creating this like kind of hotbed for loneliness. So I'd love to get your perspective on that.

SPEAKER_02 10:10

Yeah, I think it's how you use it. So ultimately, at the end of the day, these are just tools. So I mean, it's a lot of my social media is just keeping up with people that I've met at events that I, you know, so it's like, hey, look at you're in Hawaii, awesome. So if you use it as a connection tool tool to a real person, I think that's a really different way of using social, just social media. So for an example, um, I met this woman at a wedding a year and a half ago. And we literally haven't really texted, but every now and then we'll pop in and be like, oh, hey girl, I see you're in Europe. Like, hope you're having a great time. So she lives in Hawaii. I'm gonna be in Hawaii in June. And she was like, wait, you're gonna be in Hawaii? I'll fly over. So she's literally flying from Honolulu to Kauai, where I'm gonna hang out. We're gonna spend two days together. So I think if you use it as a tool for human connection, then sure. I I think we've just forgotten that there's humans, like we're actually humans with stories that we want to tell, that things that light us up. And I think if you approach friendship and networking and every event I go to, I come with this idea that man, there's people here that have these like really interesting stories, and I want to get to know them. I'm just curious. I think there's this curiosity that comes from wanting to have social interactions that mean something. So to me, it's like, yeah, I can ask someone what you do, but there are questions to go deeper than that. Like, what do you love about what you do? What do you hate about what you do? What are you excited about in the next year that's coming? What is something that you got rid of this year that you loved getting rid of? Like, I think we can be more creative in our questions and actually start developing human connections. It's it's one of the things I I hate about the coaching industry, where they're like, we're not, we're not transactional based, we're transformational, you know? And it and then they're like, oh, by the way, it's $25,000. So can I please serve your credit card? You know?

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Well, and you, I don't want to call it coaching. You're a fantastic mentor to a lot of young people. And I know you mentor young people on friendship. Um, Candace, when you were talking about this loneliness epidemic, um, there's it's this is the source is vice, it's nearly 60% of Gen Z reports feeling lonely regularly, with around 30% of young people struggling to make new friends. Uh, this friendship recession is marked by a decline in close, meaningful connections with nearly one in five children and 27% of Gen Z and millennials reporting having no close friends. So, Ellen, as you're mentoring young people, how do you how do you start the conversation and how do you kick off like teaching these skills? And for those listeners that want to, whether you're a parent or um just want to be like a casual mentor, how do we help young people learn how to make friendships?

SPEAKER_02 12:56

Well, one, I think we're actually real friends to them. So one of the ways I teach them how to be great friends is I'm a great friend to them. Like, hey, this is what it looks like. This is what it means to show up, to keep your word, to actually care about another person's. This is how you hold space. Like, I'm gonna do it for you so that you know how to do it for other people. So I think that's number one is if we're not being good examples, then what are they looking at? So, you know, so many parents, I'm not a parent, but I have seen so many parents who don't have close friendships. And then they come to me and they're like, hey, I don't know why my kid doesn't have any close friends. And it's like, well, what are you what are you like, what are they looking at? What are they watching? Do you are you developing close friendships? How do you talk about the people in your life? Are you exhibiting the things that you're hoping that they're gonna have? Um, and then to me, it's just honestly, it's so much more simple than people think. People get really in their heads and then all of a sudden their energy goes totally inward. And you can almost feel it when you're with someone who's like overwhelmed by the social experience, how like they go internal. So I was coaching this 14-year-old, and we had, and I did this whole thing, I call it likable or hateable, because she is a nationally recognized figure skater as a 14-year-old. She's probably going to the Olympics, she's amazing. And um, we just went through this whole thing about like, you know, go ahead, tell me, tell me you're the best at figure skating. She's like, I'm the best at figure skating. And I'm like, likable or hateable? And she's like, I mean, kind of hateable, but it's true, you know. But the one thing that I taught her was look at people, really look at them. What are they wearing? What are they talking about? What are they feeling? I we have this thing called like, don't judge a book by its cover. Um, that's the whole point of the cover. The cover is supposed to tell you something about the book. The cover has so much there. So it's like when I look at a person, what are they wearing that's something different that's unique, that they're probably dying to talk to you about? Like, if you want to talk about my hair, like I'm dying to tell you about it. It's genetic and it's amazing. Okay. Like some people have do you know what I'm saying? So it's like there's certain things that we, you know, that person loves. Um, and what is different about this person? Like, I was at this event and we're at a five-star hotel. It's like the Ritz Carlton. This man is wearing the most worn cowboy boots with this suit you've ever seen. And it's like, oh, that guy probably has those cowboy boys have a story. So I'm like, hey, you know, it turns out to be a cowboy from Montana, told me all about his ranching days. We talked for like an hour about cowboy ranching in Montana. It was so fun. So it's like, so that's actually what I taught her. So sh I'm like, look, and we practice. I stood up and I like did a 360. I'm like, what would you like to ask me about? She's like, oh, what about your bracelet? Like, oh, I would love to tell you about my bracelet. This is my friend Juliet. It's from her book called The Red Thread, you know, and we just practiced and practiced, and it was so funny because the next week she came in, like, hey girl, how'd it go? She goes, Oh my gosh, I'm so popular. And like, oh, tell me more, you know. She goes, Oh, this whole thing about asking people about themselves and noticing, it's it works so well, Ellen. I can't even get people to shut up now. Died. But it's so much, it's so much simpler than that, you know. And I think we make friendships so complicated. It's like, hey, I'm I think you're cool. Would you like to hang out?

SPEAKER_03 16:11

I I look at how my kids make friends, and the there's a big difference as I'm watching my two kids. I've got five and nine. And when they're five, they can show up at a park, a playground they've never been to before, make friends immediately, like immediately, and they will literally come up to me, my five-year-old, and my little older one when she was five, and be like, is it okay if I play with my best friend again? And like they like they're just so intimate, and they there's like no inhibition, like they just like or whatever, like they are deeply, deeply into this friendship. Nine is interesting. There's like new politics in nine. There's a little bit of what started at nine, just kind of feels like it started in the last year or two. Yeah. New social kind of anxieties, worried about how they were perceived, like perceived that day or did that day, um, worried about what people will think of what they wear, worried about, you know, if I invite this person, they kind of leave me out when they're with this person. So I don't there's so many more, and it's it's wild. It's been a wild experience to kind of like witness this evolution in how we as people build relationships and friendships. Um it's it'd be so nice if we could revisit being five.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

I think you can. I mean, one of my best friends does exactly how we became best friends. We were working out at this gym playground. No, literally, we're working at a gym, which is um obviously the adult playground. Adult playground. And she came up to me and said, Hey Alan, my name's Mary. I think we should be friends. But I was like, Oh, wait, how do you know my name? She's like, the trainer yelled it for 30 minutes. And that's she's one of my best friends in the whole world. Like, that's and so we hung, we hung out after class, we exchanged numbers, and then we just started working out together. And then we started going to coffee together, and then all of a sudden here we are, and she's like one of my closest friends. So I do think we make it way more complicated. It's like adults feel like, oh, I don't know. I was talking with my friend, actually Juliet, and she was talking about this uh a guy in Genius Network with us, Gary. They hang out all the time. I'm like, oh Gary, like he's such a good friend of yours. And she looked at me, she was like, Oh, yeah, I guess he is. I just never I never thought of it that way because we do so many business stuff together. And I'm like, you should tell him that. She's like, Okay. Hey Gary, thanks for being such a great friend of mine. Like, I love that we get to hang out and do business stuff together. Boom. Like, you have to tell the person. I say this over and over again to adults, especially. Tell the person that you like them. Tell the person that you want to spend more time with them, tell the person why you like like we're all five-year-olds wondering, does anyone want to hang out with me?

SPEAKER_03 19:22

You're totally right. I get that from your friendship letter email. It comes out on Fridays. We'll talk more about it, but there's been a number of times I've read it and I go, I need to send that message. And I have. And I'll tell you, people don't tire of getting like little love notes from you, even if it's been, but some of these people I haven't talked to in like a decade. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:47

There's also going back to like going back to like the the five and nine year old and how friendships change and evolve over time, and there's different expectations. I think you're right, Ellen. We make it so complicated. Like, if you think about your own, your own solar system, right? Like, I'm the sun, of course. You're the sun in your own solar system, you're the sun in yours. I'm the sun. And then like I've got my planets that sit really close to me. I've got my friends that really know me, the ones that like, I don't have to say something. They can, they just know what my silence is saying, right? And then I've got other friends on these rings, and then I've got, I've got college friends who I love dearly, but like our our time together was out at the bars. And we're in different stages of life now, right? I can still connect with them on some things, but a lot of them have kids. I don't. So we you you, it's not that they aren't any less of a friend, they're just a different type of friend, and that's okay. And you can have friends where you might not talk for six months, but when you do talk, you connect and you pick up right like that, or friends from childhood that just like know you, right? So there's all these different types. I know, Ellen, in your book, you're talking about different like levels and layers of friendship. And I think that's so healthy. And we almost shy away from that because of this dynamic from when we're young. It's like a leftover residue. Like that person's my best friend, and and that person feels slighted because of that. So those those old residues can prevent us from really just like locking into a lot of different, a lot of different forms of friendship that are all healthy.

SPEAKER_02 21:27

Yeah, I would say um the things that help people the most when I'm talking to people about friendship. My definition of friendship is I like you, I trust you, I choose you. So as you like a person more and more, that turns into love. Trust turns into like absolute safety. I'm completely safe with all of me, with all of you. And then choice becomes, you know, not just I choose you, but you're actually a part of my life. Like you carry a part of me, and I carry a part of you with me wherever I go. And that's that's the five levels are built on that. So I think what's been really powerful. Is when people realize, oh yeah, there's five levels of friendship. Because part of the problem is we have the same language for a person we just met, and the person has been our best friend for 20 years. We have no definition, like we have no language in friendship like we do in any other category. In romance, it's like, oh, we're going on dates to we're married. There's there's responsibilities and expectations for every level in romance, and we have none in friendship. And so part of what I'm trying to do is actually give a language to friendship that makes sense. Because I think a lot of times when friendships don't work, it's because I think you're on one level and you think you're on a different level. And so you're expecting things from me that I'm like, wait a second, you know, if I'm on level two and you're on level four and you're like, hey, what the heck? Like, I thought we were close friends and you're acting like you barely know me. And so I think when you have, when you both agree, like this is where we're at, this is what we're really to commit to, this is how much we like and trust each other. You have this amazing, like, okay, that's where we are. And I think a lot of toxicity we talk, everyone loves to talk about toxicity, you know, it's like a buzzword. And I actually think a lot of toxicity is just not understanding that one person is at a different level than the other person.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

You can have a board, investors, advisors, and still have nobody you can actually talk to about what is really going on. That is not unusual. That is the founder reality. And we step in right there. I'm Tom Powell, and at the founder's office, we're proud to sponsor Women Talk Finance.

SPEAKER_03 23:30

You need to have the talk. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:33

Define the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

Define the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 23:37

Are we getting matching tattoos tomorrow or no?

SPEAKER_03 23:40

I think I'm like way overdue for a couple proposals. Like Jackie, what's your ring size thing? You know it. You've already I do know it. We've already picked it out.

unknown 23:53

I'm wearing it.

SPEAKER_02 23:54

Oh yeah. No, I mean I do think the levels, so levels just real quick, the five levels. So the first one is just proximity. You see each other at the same place. You hit you hang out when you're together, that's it. Level two is activity. So we're doing activities together. We're at the gym together, we're playing golf together, right? And then level three is what I call the bridge. And I think this is actually where most relationship and friendship pain comes from, which is the bridge is the difference between these are this is like my community and these are my people. So four and five are your inner circle and your life friends. Like those are the people that know you, they love you, you trust them. And I think where most friendships actually have the most pain is when you're on the bridge too long. It's like it's much healthier to either make someone your person or hey, like you're just a part of my community. So I think um the bridge is really important. So to me, if someone is on the bridge, that's when I'm like, hey, if I want this person to go across the bridge to an actual inner circle, deep friendship, yeah. I mean, I think at that point you're like, hey, you're really important to me. This is like, I think it's important to actually tell a person if you want them to be someone who's close to you and you want to develop a deep relationship with them, I do think it's helpful to tell them that. And then it's up to them at the end of the day, because I think the most healthy friendships are the ones that are on the same level. So it's like, I could, I could want a four, but if you only want a two, I'm gonna be so fresh and upset on the other side of the bridge, like, hey, it's so great over here, can't you please come? And the if the other person's like, nope, then the only healthy thing for me to do is be like, okay, we're gonna be level two friends then.

SPEAKER_03 25:29

How do you bridge because we talked a little bit about some of the people work together and they weren't clear on the friendship? And then there's some people who they start off as friends and then they don't know how to do business with their friends. And you talk about social capital. How do you coach people in the business and friendship relationship overlap? Because I think that's a place that one can cause some of the challenges, two, you maybe you're not on the same page, and three, sometimes if things don't go well, it really can damage a relationship. And therefore, a lot of people don't want to enter into a business friendship with with people.

SPEAKER_02 26:14

Yeah. Yeah, I would say it depends on a lot of factors. Number one would be is this an ongoing thing or is this like a one-time project thing? And probably the most important question is how close am I really to this person? How much, how much value have we exchanged before this moment? Because it's easy to over-ask, right? Um, and I always like, even when I'm asking my friends for business advice or help or whatever, I always say, I'm happy to pay for this. Or if there's someone that you know that's like way lesser, like I don't need a lot of my friends are, for example, I have a friend who's probably the one of the top AI people in the world. He's building an AI company with Tony Robbins. And I couldn't figure out how to get my Outlook email to transition to Gmail.

SPEAKER_03 27:00

He's also moonlighting as your help desk.

SPEAKER_02 27:03

So I called him and I was like, send one of your minions, like, can you introduce me to a minion, like a low like tech guy that could help me with that? And he he literally was like, No, I'm gonna help you. You're my friend, I love you. This man spent five hours.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Girl, I'm can we just pause on needing five hours of AI support?

SPEAKER_02 27:30

It wasn't even an email. It wasn't even AI, it was literally outlooked to Gmail transition.

SPEAKER_01 27:35

Okay, I understand that those two are not friends.

SPEAKER_02 27:38

That feels like five hours.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Yeah, no, like Microsoft doesn't play nice with anything.

SPEAKER_02 27:43

The hilarious part is he goes, Oh, I'm really trying not to think about my hourly rate right now. But I think, you know, so I think you leave it out there. If this is a continued relationship where we're constantly in business together, the best thing you can possibly do for your friendship is to have a very nicely outlined expectations, responsibilities, what happens, like make it as clean and clear as you possibly can if this is gonna be a continued thing. If this is a one-time favor and you guys are close friends, go for it. Have a great time.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Communication, right? Yeah, that's a key with any relationship. If it's truly relational, or if it's truly not transactional, it's transformational. Communication is a huge key. Um, I think that goes back to how we help young people with friendship.

SPEAKER_02 28:34

Look, the number one thing I tell young people and everyone is friendship is earned. It is not deserved. You earn friendship, you don't earn like people, it's funny. Now that I've started talking about friendship, people are like, oh, how do I get to level four or five with you? Girl, you do not want to pay the price. Okay. Because the people who have paid the price, like, we're talking, this girl's not easy. Okay. But I think about that. I'm like, the price that those people had to pay to still be my friends, they the the amount of time they've spent, the amount of heart they've given, the amount of time they've showed up, the amount of like energy that we've spent on each other, like you earn friendship. I tell young people that all the time we have this idea in society that we're deserved friendship, that it's supposed to be part of this like human thing that we are just everyone should have a friend. Everyone deserves to have a friend. I actually disagree with that entirely. No one deserves to have a friend. Every single person has the ability to earn a friend. And you have to, you have to to like trust and choose someone, you have to develop trust and you have to choose that person. These yeah, the thing I tell young people is you can't expect to flake all the time, be on your phone the whole time you're together, and not show up for each other, and then wonder why you have no close friendships. I can tell exactly why you don't have close friendships because you haven't earned them. Because why would someone want to be your good friend? You're a terrible friend. And I yes, I actually do say this to their face. I'm like, you're a you're a bad friend, you're a terrible friend. Look at look at what you do for friendship. Look at how you show up for your friends. You get what you give in all areas of life. And this is the thing about capital, I think it's so interesting. We wouldn't look at a person in the gym with a six-pack and go, oh, so lucky. They must have just like deserved. No, what? Or we look at people who are super rich and they're actually self-made. We don't look at them and go, wow, must be lucky. No. And yet we look at people with really good friendships and we're like, wow, they must be so charming. Wow, they must be so lucky. No, they earned that. I can promise you.

SPEAKER_03 30:40

Well, and sometimes I know for me, I have really great friendships at this stage in life, like really good friendships. And I'm not a I'm not a quantity gal, I'm a quality gal. Like I have a like a tight group of really, really good friends. I also spent probably two decades not being a great friend. And I had to learn that yeah, exactly what you're saying. There are there are many instances where I got exactly the friendship that I deserved, and I needed to level up and to to deserve and earn more quality relationships in my life.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yeah. Yeah, and people ask me, they're like, How many should I have on each level? It's like, well, I think it'd be great to have a smattering of some of each, okay. But I do think that everyone gets to decide what their map looks like. Like my friend Mary, who met me at the gym, she has three really close friends, and she has a ton, she's Italian, so it's Italian Catholic family, and she's got tons of those relationships. And that's about it for her. It's like everyone else is hey, if I see you around, great, I'll say hi to you and hang out with you. But I have three best friends, I have my Italian family, and then the rest of it's like fun people I see out. So it really does depend on what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_01 32:00

This goes back to social capital being leveraged into um like a career or your work environment or what you do for a living. I think when we look at a resume, it's like the skills you have, right? And when people are applying for a job or establishing a career or, you know, growing in their career, expanding, it's like, what skills are you acquiring? And yes, the skills matter to some extent, but apples to apples, if you have two people with the same or similar skills, they can both do the job. Who do you want on your team? Who do you want in your company? Who literally in your company, like your enterprise, or just in your company, in your presence? It's the person who's able to be a friend. They show up, they're reliable, they're have they have some degree of like awareness and empathy. Um, so being able to give as a friend socially, I think says so much about just who you are as a person and what you're capable of and what you add to the mix. And it is, it's a huge, it's a huge ad.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Yeah, and I I think friendship is the foundation of all healthy relationships. And I will stake my claim on that. Because when you when you look at like what are the best marriages, they all say, Oh, we're best friends. What's the best family relationships? Like adult family relationships, the best ones are the ones who are like, Oh, my brothers are my best friends. We love hanging out, we have such a good time together. Even when you think about culture, so entrepreneurs are always talking about culture, culture this, culture that. Do you know the number one reason why someone stays at their job is because they have a best friend at work? Period. It's not money, it's not recognition. Like money and recognition are actually way below that. Look, if you show up and your girls there, like through hell or high water, this might be the worst job on the planet, but we're sticking it out together. Like it matters. So when I and even when I talk about like getting your getting a mentor, I've had some of the best mentors in the world, honestly. And people are like, How did you get that person to mentor you? Oh, they asked me if they could mentor me. But it's because I actually interacted with them as a human, you know, like not to get something from them, but like genuinely interested in them as a person, genuinely being a friend to these people has have made them turn around and go, wait a second, I really like what you're doing. I want to be a part of that. Can I help? So I think friendship being the foundation of all like networking, marriage, like to me, it is the foundation because friendship is the one tie that is there's nothing holding you together. Nothing. There's no contracts, there's no, like, there's no family, like obviously.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

There's no who's getting the house.

unknown 34:48

Nothing.

SPEAKER_02 34:48

So to me, friendship is a choice you make every single day with that person. And so if you can learn how to build connections with people that have absolutely no reason to stay in contact with you or in relationship with you, that just transforms your whole life.

SPEAKER_03 35:04

So you uh I love Friday mornings because I open my inbox and um anybody who's ever sent me an email will laugh at this because I'm actually really poor at email communication. Um, but I read your email on Friday mornings, and I kind of take it as like almost like a little bit of a challenge. I don't know if that's what you write it for, but there's a lot of times I have read your email and I'm like I need to work on that. Or ooh, who haven't I talked to in a while that I should ping and reach out to? Um, who who have I left something unsaid with? Oh so how can people find how can people get this same nice morning email in their inbox?

SPEAKER_02 35:57

You're so kind. Uh yeah, the friendship letters, it's on Substack. So you can either look me up on Substack or the Friendship Letters. Um, it's been really fun. In fact, I had a friend tell me to start that. She was like, Look, here's what I want you to do. Every week, just write about a conversation you had about friendship. So, what's fun about the letters is you're actually getting a week by week what happens in my life with friendship. So they all come from a conversation that I've had with one of my friends or someone who's asking me about friendship. So it's been really fun because now people are sending me stuff. They're like, hey, just for your friendship letter, here's the scenario. Like, so some of them are actually responses to people, and I just publish them publicly, which is kind of funny. I didn't realize that. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

What if people listen to this and they're like, oh, my child or my so-and-so is struggling with friendships. Um, how do I contact you to potentially be a mentor to my child?

SPEAKER_02 36:55

Oh lord. We'll see how.

SPEAKER_01 36:58

Is that even on the table? Does Ellen Long have the time?

SPEAKER_02 37:01

It depends. Yeah, it depends. Yeah. I have four mentees right now.

SPEAKER_01 37:06

So you're building the best future friends in the world.

SPEAKER_02 37:11

Yeah, I'm gonna start doing workshops though. I already have one in San Diego. So I think what I'm gonna start doing is doing workshops, friendship workshops, where people can come. Um, my 14-year-old wants me to do one with her her friends. So we'll probably do one at uh Michael Burnoff's place in Scottsdale. I have one in San Diego, so I'm gonna start doing like pop-up friendship workshops, which will be fun too.

SPEAKER_01 37:34

I love that. I love that. I also listened to a podcast recently where Esther Perell was talking about dating. And I think there's a really relevant thread woven through her advice was that a lot of people show up with this like checklist, right? And it's like, do you check all my boxes? Check, check, check, check, check. And she said that makes it so productized. Yeah. Like you're heading to the grocery store and you're like, what do I need? Um, or you're picking out like a great fruit, like, is it heavy enough? Is it this color? Is it whatever? Instead, she says, show up as the person you want to be. What's on your checklist? Who do you want to be as a person? In this case, who do you want to be as a friend? And then you will naturally attract and make friends just based on like the love of energy and what you attract and like this this magnetism. So, for example, Ellen, like Mary, you I'm guessing at the gym had some sort of like maybe you were sweating and crying because you were with your trainer who was screaming at you. Maybe not. You had some element of like being approachable, right? Yes, you're probably smiling. There, there's laughing. I'm I'm sure you were laughing and enjoying yourself, even if you were like also hating the time. Something made you approachable where Mary was like, I'm gonna walk up to her, like your energy projected that. Can we be friends? And you're like, Yeah. So I love Esther's advice for dating. I think same same in friendships. Show up as the kind of person you want to be, show up as the kind of friend you want to be, and you will naturally attract other people that are like, Oh, I'd love to be her friend, I'd love to be his friend.

SPEAKER_02 39:16

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think if I were to say it bluntly, I have heard that I uh my friendship letters have also come across this way, but people have told me being with you is like getting punched in the gut and then hugged. Like, I like that, I'm here for that. I think it's like hard truths, like I need it, I need it sometimes. So the hard truth is stop thinking about yourself so much. Like get out of your head and look at the other people, be interested in the other people. The amount of friends that I've made by just commenting on what everyone else is thinking, but no one wants to say out loud because we're all thinking the same thing in so many different circumstances. And it's like, oh, I bet she's thinking that too. Oh, I bet if I said that, you know, it's like, how do I connect with that person? There's something looking for something to connect with a person is actually a really good practice. You can do it anywhere. I do it everywhere. Grocery store, gym. It's like, what's the one thing I can just like quickly connect with that person and then walk away? And we had this like amazing, funny interaction. It probably lasted 10 seconds. But that you're right. Like, if you have that mindset and you're doing that on a regular basis, everyone is attracted to you because you're putting that out there. Um, and it actually helps with your happiness. One of the top ways to increase your happiness is actually to have random encounters with strangers. It's like the top five ways of being adding to your happiness.

SPEAKER_01 40:42

Love that crazy. That's why. Candace with school age kids, how do you as a parent help navigate some of their friendship challenges? I'm guessing they have tough days where they come home and it's not not always about the learning or you know, math being hard. It's more about the the people and the social skills. How do you navigate as a parent? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 41:04

Majority of it is their social world. Uh my friends do get to or my kids do see me and my close friendships and their friends too. I mean, I think Jackie, you have correspondence heading your way now, I believe, because do I?

SPEAKER_01 41:21

I have a pen pal that's nine years old, Ellen.

SPEAKER_03 41:23

I love that. Um so that's I get to use that as examples a lot. I'm also I think maybe I'm maybe maybe I'm modeling a little bit from you, Ellen, but I give a little tough love too. I'm like, what was your like I know you had some ownership in this exchange? I'm not quick to call my in the situation to call the other kid a bully to my kid or say, like, oh, how dare unless they were physical with my child. I'm like, what well what give me the full story? Like, give me what happened before. Like, what was the scenario? I don't want to like have them take all the responsibility, but I do want them to see maybe the areas that they weren't showing up as a good friend as well. Um, and then I'm big on repairs. I'm like, yeah, and I do want to do another episode with you, Ellen, on like the repairs and eating the frog type conversations because that you touch on quite a bit. And seeing the things that maybe are heavy that aren't being said. And so I and I do like talk to my kids about doing that. We have one of the best times with my kids is at night before they go to bed. We lay in their beds separately because they get their own time with me, and that's when they're kind of ready to tell me what is going on, and that's when we can talk. And I think I must be doing an okay job because they still are very open with me about what Oh, you must be.

SPEAKER_02 42:56

Kudos to you because that's massive.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

It they they still I mean, I'm waiting for it because I don't know. I mean, I'm at nine right now, who knows what's gonna happen at 13. But right now, they're still both very open with me about their day and the social interactions and what happened and want to talk about it. And so um I'll keep doing that as long as they want.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Yeah, one thing I like to tell parents is you can teach your kids what a good friend looks like. Because I think so often when when you're young, you don't know you're like trying to figure it out and you're learning, and and I always tell parents, look, show me your kids' closest friends and I'll show you the path, their life path. Like that's where they're going. It's not what you parents are doing. I love you parents. You have a lot, you have a lot of, but when they start getting into high school or college, I mean, think about your own life. Who's who is influencing you the most? Was it your parents in high school? In college, no, it was your friend. Yeah, I wanted to be just like them. Right?

SPEAKER_03 43:52

So I it's so true.

SPEAKER_02 43:54

Yeah. So, like as a parent, teach your kids what a good friend looks like. So, part of what I'm trying to help the 14 year old. Is, hey, the same thing that I'm telling you to be to other people, notice what are other people giving you back? Are they also being a good friend back to you? So I want you to hold up a mirror and look in the mirror and say, okay, is it me? And then it's like, okay, I'm doing all these things. Who is doing it back to me? And I think even as adults, we forget that. I was talking to this one woman, I'm like, oh, who has been your best friend in the last like, say, 10? Like, if there was one person you could pick up the phone and call, who would it be? And she immediately named this woman Julie. She's like, oh my gosh, it's Julie. And I said, Well, when's the last time you've talked to Julie? When's the last time you've told her like that's your person? She and she looked at me with this, she was like, Ellen, six months at least. Because she was a life friend. And life friends are the easiest to forget because they're there. And you can and you can call them six months later and nothing, and no time has passed, which is great. And it's also terrible. Wait, why are the best people in our lives getting the least amount of time and they're the ones that we would call? Like, so to me, I think with your kids, teaching your kids this is what a good friend looks like, this is what they do, this is what you should be doing, and also pay attention to the ones that are doing it back to you. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 45:16

This is so, so like heart filling and wonderful and inspiring. Um, thank you, Ellen. Uh, why don't we wrap and we'll have in our show notes the way that you can get on to Ellen's friendship letters and benefit from that weekly and possibly join a friendship workshop or other opportunity to just enhance your own friendship skills or help your kids. Um, again, it's it's so, so important, arguably, like the bedrock of everything. So thank you again for joining us for another episode of WTF.

SPEAKER_03 45:52

You're the ultimate lipstick on the teeth. Why is down? Like you will tell you you're gonna show up and tell a friend or a stranger, like, hey girl, your hair is in your teeth, sticking up. We got a something about Mary situation here. Like it's you that's who you are, and that is who you like, you show up that way every single day. And I I just think it's amazing. So thank you so much.

SPEAKER_02 46:20

Of course. Yeah, yeah. The one question I recently been thinking a lot. Sorry, I'm gonna add this last thing, is what's useful? Like, what's useful here? You know, and sometimes what's useful is a hug, and sometimes what's useful is the truth, and sometimes what's useful is a hand to help. Like, what is actually the best thing right now for this person, this circumstance, this? So I try to keep that in mind. Like, what's really useful? Is it the words that I'm saying? Is it the presence that I'm bringing? Is it the mindset that I have? Yeah. So anyway, that's something I try to keep in mind as I move through the world.

SPEAKER_01 46:57

Okay, that was today's episode of WTF. If you left, learned something, or felt a little less alone, make sure you hit follow. And send this episode to a friend who might need it. Women don't gatekeep, especially not the good stuff.

SPEAKER_03 47:12

We'll be back next week with more real talk, more stories, and probably more over sharing. See you next time on WTF.