Diligently Hunting with the Alabama Wildlife Federation

On this episode of The Diligently Hunting Podcast, we shift gears back into the land management mode. We are joined by Tom Sullivan, a Resource Stewardship Biologist with the Alabama Wildlife Federation, and we talk all things AWF. From their land owner assistance programs, to their wild game cook-off events. We also dive into a little history of native Alabama, and what we believe might have led to the lack of conservation of the native habitats that our wild game thrive in!

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

This is the Diligently Hunting Podcast, where our goal is to diligently educate and inspire listeners about wildlife management, conservation, and the intricacies of buying and selling real estate in the Southeast. Through engaging discussions and expert insights, we aim to empower listeners to responsibly steward God's creation and preserve and improve natural habitats for future generations. I'm your host, Danny Bright. Thank you for tuning in and let's get into it. All right, well, we've made it back again. This episode is one that has been in the works for, I don't know, six or seven months. Um today I have Mr. Tom Sullivan, he's a resource stewardship biologist with Alabama Wildlife Federation. Uh, and I reached out to him uh fall of last year, maybe late summer of last year, and uh wanted to have this conversation. But as I've already talked about my transitioning careers and all those kind of things, kind of and holidays, all that stuff. Um put a put a little pause on that, but we got it fired back up. So I'm gonna bring in Mr. Tom, like I said, he's the resource stewardship biologist with AEWF, and we're gonna talk a lot about I think landowner assistance programs, and uh he's very heavily involved in long leaf, long leaf initiatives, I believe, and things like that. So, Tom, thank you for for joining today. I know we've had a little conversation before we got going, but excited to have you, man.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Yeah, thanks, Danny. I'm glad we finally get this put together, get our get around our busy schedules and kind of line something up.

SPEAKER_01 1:31

Yeah, it's it's uh this is like I said, it's one I've been looking forward to for a long time. So um I guess let's just quick intro. You're I know your background, you're saying you've been in this this line of work in this field for a really long time. So I'm assuming because of the cup I saw a few minutes ago, maybe we're an Auburn grad.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yes, Auburn grad. Uh you know, starting in forestry, decided that was what I was wanting to do, and uh actually ended up in wildlife. Uh but I'm happy I made a decision. Um, I enjoy. But yeah, Auburn grad. I've been doing this for about nine, eight, nine years now. Um bounce around from different NGOs, uh, from Louisiana to Mobile, now back to you know, central Alabama where I belong and want to stay.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

On the plains. Is that is that what you Auburn fans say on the plains? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, my wife's a two-time Auburn grad. So once was once was her undergrad was in person, so I spent almost every weekend of three years up there when we were dating, and then she did her master's online. But she's a she's a two-time Auburn grad, so she'll be she'll be happy.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Um yeah, I I will only be one time grad. Uh once was hard enough for me, so I will stick to that one and be grateful.

SPEAKER_01 2:47

Now you know why I'm in the land business, because I don't know if I could have I don't know if once would have worked for me or not to to be able, I know when I was younger, always uh I was always interested in in in pursuing a career career path. Probably, you know, I say similar to yours, but in forestry bio something like that. But man, I just high school was hard enough that that I didn't think college was the the right decision for me. It's not easy. Yeah. So um I'm gonna be on I uh I guess the honest side of this is is man, I have I don't even know how many years, double digit years, probably close to 15, if not more years, I have had an Alabama Wildlife Federation tag on my truck. Yeah. Um some of that is just because they look cool. Um, and some of those, you know, some of that kind of stuff. And and it it, you know, you feel like as a hunter, as a as a guy that is passionate about conservation, stewardship, it just kind of even the the the 20,000 foot view of it, it it makes sense. In the last year or so, I really dove in and started trying to learn more as we were talking about. I wanted to learn as much as I can about programs and opportunities that are out there from landownership perspective to you know youth involvement perspective, educational perspective, and all that. So really diving in to see what the the AWF has to offer. And uh a lot of that came, one of those came from I think when I originally reached out to you, was a Facebook post I saw that didn't even know that there was a a program that AWF offered for um landownership assistance and things like that. Um and that's what piqued my interest, and actually where I got your email from to send the email. I was trying to look back and see that was back in July of last year that I saw this post. Um, that y'all's land stewardship assistance program, a free cer a free service for landowners interested in planning and implementing wildlife habitat improvements. Um, so tell us a little bit about that. Like I said, wherever we wherever the conversation goes is where it goes, but tell us a little bit about that and and and what AWF has to offer for the landowner.

SPEAKER_03 5:00

Yeah, so I'll go kind of broader with AWF. So a lot of people, you know, they know about LAN Ark in Millbrook, you know, our facility there, gorgeous facility. You know, we do a lot of educational stuff there. Um, it's great programs. It's really interesting to see. We see I get emails every day about all the schools coming into that educational program, the the nature center, it is amazing what they're doing. Um, it's really good. Um, you know, uh then we got all the cookouts that are cook-offs that are coming up. Um, those are great times. We not only, you know, it's wild game, top conservation, it's it's a great time. Um they you should have one in every area close to you. Um, so if that's something else, we can put a link on it. Um but then you know we have our land stewardship program, which actually started in 1999. So we have been going strong with that. Um, and I am specifically involved in the longleaf pine initiative that we have. So basically restoring, maintaining stuff like that. Um now I don't just only do longleaf, um uh I do everything as well. Um, but yeah, so we've been doing this since 1999. I've been here for almost a year. Um, but uh I kind of cover the east part of the state. If you can kind of cut off at the interstate, uh the only other place I go across the interstate is Mobile, and right there in Bumblein County, I cut off at the bottom. So we cover that as well. Um, but yeah, we uh we're free technical citizens to the general public. Um a lot of people reach out because they want to, you know, betterment have better habitat, wildlife habitat, but don't really know where to start. That's usually what I get. Either that or you know, they've been on Google and they've looked up, you know, how to do this, and there's 75 different ways to do it because everyone has different opinions. So just trying to meet everyone in the middle and go from there. Um, so that's kind of what we do. Um, you know, offer them the tentacle assistance, mapping. Uh if they're interested in funding, we personally don't have any funding, but we help them reach out to the people that do. Um, so that's kind of what we that we what we've been doing and um continue to right.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

So I think about and I think well, similar probably to the to the real estate world. I've come as I've as I've got to know more people in your space and in your sphere, it seems like uh a lot of y'all, um maybe it's a small world kind of thing, like a lot of you know each other. A lot of that's probably because the where you you know there it's not like every school offers the kind of programs that y'all attend and things like that. But I think a lot about I don't know if you know or have seen um any or listened to the Southern New and those guys and uh the that what they do and and um you know we'll forgive them for being involved with Tut Land Company, that's fine. But phenomenal uh information source in a lot of ways to me. But also I I I I was thinking this weekend as when we were talking about it earlier, and I went up to that that uh field day that the Department of Conservation hosted, I was listening to their their newest episode talking about uh this habitat network that they're building. And it honestly makes me think about, you know, that's an awesome thing and it's a great thing, but a lot of people may not be able to afford or you know what I mean, to be to to do things like that, but yet they're unaware of programs like what y'all offer that are free to the public. And I know the state offers some similar kind of stuff as well, like that the that that it is, hey, we can come no not necessarily come implement and do the plan, but can at least have a a good solid professional discussion on hey, these are things that you could do to meet your objectives or to improve your habitat or you know, whatever it may be, or to you know, long leaf restoration, those kind of things. Um, I don't think there's in my experience, I don't think there's that many people aware of the amount of free programs that are out there, specifically like this one with AWF.

unknown 9:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

So do y'all see that that that maybe like getting the word out's uh uh a vital part of what you do, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_03 9:14

Like, yeah, I mean, just getting the word out that that helps. Um, you know, we have tons of partners, man. Um, and half the time I'm not just going by, I mean, sometimes I'm not even going by myself, you know. We have some longleaf lines of people going with this, we have Albabham Fortune Foundation going with this, we have, you know, um Alabama Forty Commission going with this. So it's always a tag team effort, you know, in a lot of these areas. Um we find a good amount of people through social media, word of mouth, um, of course, our magazines, you know, um magazines are always pretty big. Um, that's usually when we get pretty busy. Um, but yeah, a lot of people still kind of it's the same way with NRCS and any other federal funding. They still don't know that they're funding. Right, right, right. You know, and um, but no, I mean, we it it's getting better. Um I mean, it's just as a whole, like you said, you know, we meet all these people, I know all these people. You know, we just had our wildlife society meeting a couple weeks ago, and I knew half the people there, and it was great to see we're all here for a common goal. Right. And basically, how can we all reach that common goal and help out landowners? Because that's that's always something on the docket is how can we do better.

SPEAKER_00 10:23

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

And that's that and that's man, as I've gotten older and and learned more about that, and I maybe that's just maturity in in general, that you you really do transition to to to to the conservationist mindset, to the stewardship mindset, as much as you do the you know, the deer on the wall. Well, he's over here, wherever the camera's backwards, yeah. I know you can't see him. Um, but you know, like there's there's and I obviously I love that side of it, but to really grow in in that. And it's like on our place we we clear cut it in 17, replant planted it back in longleaf. And for me, it's how do I steward that personally, you know what I mean? Like and and and uh I'm interested to learn more about that. Um but I'm I see so much about that, and like you even mentioned the longleaf alliance, and I've seen so what is because I can honestly say like I don't think I know why is the long leaf so important? Why is it why is it the targeted, you know, I say targeted, why you just see so much push in that world, and and and so what is it, what is why the longleaf, I guess is the question.

SPEAKER_03 11:41

Yeah, so uh kind of run back. Um historically, longleaf, you know, go all the way from Virginia to parts of Texas, and it kind of in the state of Alabama, the historic longleaf range kind of cuts off around Coleman, maybe some so most than half the state. Um, and it used to be all long leaf, you know. Back then the quail were vibrant, the turkey were vibrant, you know, everything was vibrant because not only was the longleaf and natural, it was also getting, you know, fire and stuff like that. Um and basically, you know, timber companies came in and started buying up bigger properties, and you know, longleaf might not be their objective, so they went with lava body.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 12:22

No, yeah, and we know we know many timber companies now doing longleaf. I mean, that's that's timber companies are everything's starting to change, hopefully. Um, but longleaf, I mean, it's gonna be pushed for the next, I mean, for the rest of my life cycle too.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

I mean, right.

SPEAKER_03 12:36

It's it we want to get back there. I mean, it's a direct um impact, you know, and that's why when I meet someone and they have a clear cut and they're like, well, I'm really interested in that grassier, you know, areas and stuff like that. Well, perfect longleaf. I mean, because it can be burned at almost every stage of its life. Um, you know, it can be managed for wildlife. You know, you plant lob lolly and you can't touch it for at least seven plus years, right? And it's just gonna be a barren wasteland, and it's just tougher to do. But longleaf, you know, it's just that's the key to everything. Um, just getting back to that natural habitat where we used to be where we were thriving. Right, you know, and I mean it's not even just longleaf in general, it's just habitat degradation, all these neighborhoods coming up. I mean, it's everything, man. It's it's it's it's it's a much bigger picture than just converting to longleaf. Right. But, you know, I always tell a landowner if you have um, you know, a wildlife-minded, you know, focus, longleaf is always gonna be the key. Um, it's you know, especially because you'll still get that money on the back end. Um, you know, it's better quality tree. Um most of your polls are gonna be coming from it, so it's um it's not it's it's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Right.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

I I think you know, you you you touched on something there that that I know I I was oblivious and ignorant to. And it's and going back, man, it's just thinking about people that have impacted me and and and caused me to be curious. Um the uh native habitat project. Watching his stuff and like his where he talks about what Alabama was a hundred plus years ago, or what you know, whatever that timeline may be. And I think the common if you don't if you don't go down that that that path of educating that, you drive around and you see to your point, because I grew up 20 years or more on timber leases, both in like Stewart County, Georgia area, Henry County, Alabama, Barber County, Alabama, you know, all those kind of places. And in your brain, that's just what Alabama looks like, right? You know what I mean? Like you you miss the point of well, this isn't what it always looked like. This isn't the habitat that we always had. And I've heard so much too, and it it it it seems unfortunate that so much timber companies bought up so much land, which is a a beautiful thing for when they open them up for hunting leases and you need somewhere to hunt, there's there's a benefit there. But now it's to a place where like even the timber market's not very great. So there's thousands and thousands and thousands of acres of poor habitat and just undesirable wildlife habitat. Uh what what what are we gonna do with it? Like what you know what I mean? Um and and again, that's kind of my goal here is is is for myself to continue to learn and understand and help in any way that I can get information and that out there of what what Alabama used to be, and or you know, even what our habitat was and where our deer thrived. And I think there's just such a mindset in our state, at least in my area of our state, in the the is just poor genetic and deer, whatever it may be, right? Like you can't grow the same caliber deer, but yet we completely neglect that our habitat is in nowhere near as conducive to what it would what it used to be and what it could be to promote quality wildlife, like not just whitetail, turkey, quail, all those things.

SPEAKER_03 16:16

Yeah, I mean, I the amount of times I hear, you know, uh, you know, but there just not many deer in my area. There's not many deer in my area, or you know, there's not many turkeys or stuff like that. I'm like, well, when's the last time you burnt? Oh, seven years, you know. It it it's I get the big one for me is I get a lot of time where people are like, well, I'm really trapping predators pretty hard. I'm like, okay, well, what else are you doing? Right. Nothing. Well, let's kind of focus, and that's what a lot what we do is just trying to put people's focus with scientific evidence and you know, all that, and trying to get their focus back on what could actually be, you know, help their property. But you know, at AWF, we're very habitat-minded people, right? You know, you manage for the habitat, you don't, you know, it it's it's so basically we'll go out to a property, look up at the habitat, kind of decide what species you're interested in the most, and go off that very we're very site-specific, right? You know, and that's the thing that gets you that that that gets you overwhelmed is you you know, you might be from um you know Dothan, Alabama, and you're looking at something of how do I manage for wildlife. And you know, an article from Northwest Alabama came out, and you're gonna try to manage that way. It's completely different. So it's it's hard. That's why you need a site-specific professional, like we provide AWF to really go over that. And yeah, I just and it's just a lot of times people get overwhelmed and then just brush their hands and say it is what it is, right? Um, you know, uh properties uh it's never too far gone. You know, sometimes we're gonna have to start over, but that's not a bad thing, right? Um, but that there's it just takes a little time, and like I said, obviously money, but there's there's options out there to help with that. Uh, but that's it, that's just it is what it is. I mean, we we have to make sure that our landowners, you know, don't become overwhelmed. You know, you don't want to overwhelm them because I understand. I mean, it it's if you sit here and tell them you gotta thin this, you gotta do that, you gotta do this, and all they're sit hearing is money in their head. Money and work. I understand. So, yeah, I mean, that's you know, a big part of wildlife management as well. It's taking what the landowner has and you know trying to make it as fiscally as responsible for them as well. It's yeah, it's um so there's a lot of a lot to that. A lot to that.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Right, which is that that goes back to what I said earlier. The reason I love these type programs is because you're already providing a service at no cost, as far as the the consultation, the conversation, the education. That's the first place that you gotta start in these things. Um, like you said, site-specific information, site-specific re science that says, hey, on this site, this is what would produce results. Um I always uh my mind gets off track sometimes with what I was thinking. But so an example of that. Um so our place is is is a family farm and it's been in my family for I don't even know how many years, to be totally honest. And um I'd have to go back and look. I mean, I know in the 40s at least, well, before the 40s, and so it's uh it's 150 acres total. 80 acres of that is in cultivation that we leased to a farmer. We've got a 12 acre hayfield and a couple home sites, and the vast majority of it at one point there's about 15 acres that was just fallow because erosion issues if they farmed it, and then just old, old growth hardwoods, you know, down towards the creek and all that, which is what we had logged. And in 17, like I said, put back in the long leaf. It's had fire run through it once, certain aspects of it burnt really well, especially the stuff that was fallow because it was mostly grasses and and you know, all that kind of stuff. The you know, the what the sagebrush, whatever I my brain's not even thinking of the name of it right now, but just broomsage. Broomsage, there it is. Burnt great. Some of the other stuff was thicker briar, not a lot of litter on the ground that really pulled fire through it. And I'm sitting in a stance right now that I'm I'm trying to educate myself with because my dad handled so much of that process because it was his managed or was, you know, I don't know the full specs on that. It was in a CRP program, you know, it was met a forester helping manage it and those kind of things. And I'm looking at it right now, dying to burn part of it. And it our place lays out perfectly that you could stage burn, you could do this 12 acres this year and then the next, and you know, kind of like that always having that very habitat variety on the property. I've never performed a burn to that level. So you kind of look at it, and I mean I've burned our hay fields, we've done a lot of those things, but but that's I think that's where like you made that comment. But even there are things within the state that they offer and that you can do to learn to burn, to do the things appropriately. And that was even the event we went to this past week and I went to. We did a burn on at the nature center there for them to show that point of like, hey, this isn't as scary as they want you as you you think it is. Like, here's here's ways to handle it and control it. And I think that's a conversation. I got two thoughts on that, but that's a conversation that uh it seems like the last five or ten years that the fire element has really become a hot topic of conversation. Maybe it's been longer. Maybe it's maybe I haven't heard it for that, but it seems like so many more people are committing to the use of fire for for habitat management. Is is that an accurate thought or Yeah, we're getting there.

SPEAKER_03 22:03

It's still some work.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

Still a lot of burning to do, but yeah, we're getting there.

SPEAKER_03 22:07

It's just a lot of times, uh, like I said, it comes back to not every property can be burned right away. I mean, especially, you know, that thick area. That's why, you know, it takes some initial um management to be able to get to that point. You know, with fire, it's it's too if you're at a starting point or you want to maintain something, you continue with it. You know, a lot of times if you haven't seen fire in 10 years, we might have to do something a little more before we get to that point. Um, but they're not landowners in general aren't as afraid of fires as they used to be.

SPEAKER_00 22:42

Right.

SPEAKER_03 22:43

Because I mean, it's it's it, and I think education is doing a really good thing. And I'm I'm glad they're getting people out in the public. You know, I know um Auburn Extension, Alabama Forestry Foundation, AFC, uh, let's see, um, Tall Timbers out of Tallahassee, they do a bunch of learn to burns and stuff that are throughout the state. Um, especially, you know, uh AFC doing, you know, their certification. They'll do one in Foley, they'll do one in Auburn, and I think they kind of rotate in North Alabama too. And um definitely get your certification.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

That's the one I've I've been, and I I got on the website of me. I found that a few years back and just didn't have the time to commit to it. But it's something I could do this year for me. And I was like, and they talked a lot about it this last weekend about like, hey, you can go to this becoming a certified bird manager, like it's a week-long thing or four days something, but it's it is an in-depth educational workshop on burning, condition, all the all the important information to like you said, to to to to feel confident in what you're doing. Because it is a tool that that yes, poor planning, uh just going out there and lighting something on fire is never a great idea. But when done properly, the the the success to danger ratio there is not that high in all reality. If you you you like they said, if you have an imp a properly implemented burn plan.

SPEAKER_03 24:15

Um yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, and that's the thing. Um, a lot of times I'll meet with landowner and be like, Well, have you burned this before? And they're like, I want to, but I'm weary of it. And when I hear that, I'm like, good. Yeah, I I you know, if you're weary at all, release it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Please do. Because I mean it's um, you know, it's mother nature, man. It'll kick you. So, but uh I I think if people are able to burn their property, that will help a lot more because not only are we talking about you know habitat degradation and stuff like that, we're also in a field where a lot of people are retiring and a lot of people aren't filling in, you know. But not only from you know, agency folks, but to consultants as well. I mean, I mean, you can call someone right now a consultant, and some of them, you know, will be booked up for who who knows how long. Right. So if you're able to be able to do that by your you know yourself one day, you know, and that's why you know we have those PBAs, the per prescribe burn associations as well. I got one in central Alabama.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Um, you know, that's I don't think we have one down here in the south. I've I've tried to find one. I I know the one uh uh I think Barber County is the furthest county that is in the central in the south.

SPEAKER_03 25:28

Yeah, I'm not sure. Um I'm sure someone's something's coming. Uh I know uh South South West Alabama got one not recently, um, but that would be another tall timbers, you know, they do all that stuff and they do a great job with it. Um but yeah, it's just and that's another thing is education, and you know, when it comes to you know, a landowner trying to burn 20 to 30 acres, getting a sultan out there is gonna be a little bit harder. So, and that's that's what most of our landowners are, you know. Not most of our landowners own, you know, 500 to a thousand acres. I mean, it's it's impossible to be that way, you know. Right. It's hard. Yeah, but a lot of it, you know, with smaller acreage, and it just it doesn't never get burned, and then the next year it doesn't get burned, and then the third year they're done. And it's just which I understand. I mean, it's frustration and not knowing things. So it's it's I understand.

SPEAKER_01 26:19

Well, there I got two thoughts on that. So I think about you made it, you made a really good point there. It's almost the same philosophy as like the QDMA and stuff. Is if if okay, I I have in totality have 150 acres, but uh you know, one third of that is kind of the the huntable acres, the rest of it, like I said, is is this is farm and and uh hayfield, things like that. But if the guy beside me that's got 40 acres is of the same mindset, the guy behind us that's got a hundred is of the same mindset. Well, like you said, most landowners in Alabama we don't have 500 acres. But if you get a neighborhood of people committed to burning or quality deer management and that in that analogy, all of a sudden now we've got a large-scale impact from small landowners that it you're right, it's not a 500 acre piece, but it's it's five people that own you know anywhere from 50 to 100 acres each. And holy crap, look at our look at the habitat that we now have and the animals, much bigger home range size.

SPEAKER_03 27:23

Yeah, and that's what I look at as well. Um, you know, I've every landowner I go to, I ask them, I'm like, hey, what is your what it what do they do around what it what do they do? You know, I'll look up at a map, oh, there's a deeper amount of timberland around them. I'd be interested to see what they do around because you know it it it's it's hard to be landlocked and around people that aren't managing, say if you have 50 acres. Um I mean, yeah, you can build that quote unquote paradise, but is it sustainable? Probably not. Um, you know, and that's the thing, you know, especially with turkeys. If you don't have what they want, they're gone. Right. And that's it. Um, and you know, if you're interested in quail, if you have them and you stop managing, boom, they can go, and you'll never get them back. Right. So it's it's that's why we we need to start getting on a more landscape management scale, which we're working on. Um yeah, but like that's my goal, man. I would love to I love when I meet with the guy and he's like, hey, I got a buddy down the street, he's interested. I go meet with him. Oh, I got another buddy down the street, he's interested. That makes a massive difference, and that will make it. I mean, that's that's what it that's what it takes.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Right, yeah, absolutely. I I I could see that. So back to the thought that left me earlier, because I it I am interested in a professional opinion on it. You you I'm not gonna don't I don't want to put you on the spot or anything, but you how how old are you by chance? 90s kid or younger? I'm 33. Okay, okay. So you're you're you're almost in the same boat as I am. I'm 38, so I'm not like again. This is I just thought about this uh when you were talking about that. The the and and I man, it's it's the reason that I love the outdoors, the the TNN, you know, all those things back in the days with Real Tree outdoors, um, hunt in the country with Mossy Oak, all the TV shows, right? Which develop the outdoor industry. And I had two thoughts. One was went to NWTF this year, we had a booth up there, and it's like uh Primos's 50th anniversary, Real Tree's 40th anniversary, like the night in hell guys. I mean, I remember watching these guys, and they're you see them and they're aging out. They're they're they're they're getting older. And what they have done for conservation, and I I was talking to somebody about this, and my question that I had is like, it reminds me of the George Jones song with these just mecca, these dudes that have just preached conservation on a such a large scale. And my question was, who's gonna fill their shoes? Right, like and you said like you talked about people are aging out of your out of your your profession. Who's gonna fill those shoes? Um was was the question that I've been asking myself recently, like who is the next wheel primo? Is there another one to come, or have we lived through you know, because of technology now and all that, the way all that was uh the perfect storm of things. But then the the caveat to that that I really wonder about, and I I'm curious to have your opinion on. As much as I enjoyed what the outdoor industry meant to me from that perspective, that gave me access, because nobody in my family hunted. So that was how I that was where I got education, that was where I learned, that was where I was entertained, that's where the passion was developed. But also as the outdoor industry grew, so did uh every kind of supplement and protein and food plot seed and everything you can imagine. And they pay these people that are just you know massive in the industry to put their face on it, and like this is whatever it is. I don't want to uh it specific names, but protein pellets. Like you feed this protein pellet and look at this 190-inch deer that I killed. Did that cause a shift in thinking through that 20, 30 year period where we quit paying attention to habitat as much and we started focusing more on that that quick and easy solution and maybe that you know that that mineral block that we put out, that protein or whatever it is. I wonder if there's any correlation to that.

SPEAKER_03 31:34

Yeah, so basically, yeah, absolutely. Um when I hear when I go to a landowner's property and they're like, I'm a deer hunter, okay. And basically it becomes very evident very quickly, you know, they spend a lot of money on food plots, right? Or supplemental feeding or something like that, which you know, that is what it is. Um, but you know, that is not going to grow your deer herd, it is not going to make your genetics better. That is not. Um, you know, it's just a ton of money you're spending. And you know, food plots are hunter man hunter management, not deer management. Right. Um, you want to sit in something comfy and nice and hunt. That's and that's there's nothing wrong with that. I understand that. And I've done it too. Um, but a lot of times people don't realize that you know, the one thing that gets me is what is a year-round plot that I can I can plant? Right. Well, I don't want a year-round plot. I want whatever that deer needs in that timber stand that is next to you that you know um that it has that quality tonnage of food for each of that deer throughout, you know, that it has all that. Um, that's what I want. Um, a lot of times, and you know, you'll go to a local co-op or something like that, and they'll have some mix. Half of it's not even something in you know, native to Alabama, and they'll have a deer from Wisconsin.

SPEAKER_00 32:59

Right.

SPEAKER_03 32:59

We've never had a deer that big in the state of Alabama ever. They see that deer and they're like, oh man, I can get that big. No. But it's it's and you mentioned who is gonna take over. You know, the person that's gonna take over, one is gonna have to take around the blueprint blueprint that Aldo Leopold had back in the day, and then it they kind of always grew and adapt to it because we gotta adapt. Um, I'm not saying that anyone's doing anything wrong. We're not, but we have to change with the time. You know, we have to change with you know the younger landowners and stuff like that. We have to always adapt. So whoever's gonna take over this is gonna be really good at adapting and really good at you know reaching out to the general public. Um, and you know, that's one thing we like to do at AWF is we like to let them know um, you know, there's fallacies out there, right? You know, salt tooth up a huge fallacy, you know, stuff like that. And we like to write articles on them and we like to speak about it because a lot of times people don't. And you know, we're here for the truth, we're here for you know what we what we need, and that's being native, and like you said, what what we've all talked about this whole time is getting back to that native habitat, right? Getting back to working on the habitat besides working just strictly off a species, because when you start working on a species, you start spending a lot more money and a lot of more non-necessary money, and you completely veer off that track, right?

SPEAKER_01 34:25

Well, I think you know, you talking about financially impacting things, and I don't know the going rates for these things off the top of my head, but I know even like paying for a burn if you could get that done is is is it's a per acre number usually, and and I don't want to throw a number out there. But I wonder for a guy like me that has you know whatever it is, maybe it's 60 acres um of plant, especially like now, like I said, longleaf, but it's rotatable because of creek system, because of different avenues, right? So, like I said, uh maybe I'm doing 20 a year in my rotation. Could I instead of buying X number of bags of plug in the name of the high dollar record rack, whatever protein pellet, could I pay for that burn instead? You know what I mean? Like that's yeah, have we have we considered that? I think that's the thing that I learned a few years back, like shouting out and learning in that world is like you understand what God is putting in those in out there in the outdoors. We cannot we can't put that in a pellet as far as the the the quality of what it is to the wildlife. So if you can get your habitat producing that, you don't need to go spend money on this protein uh feed or whatever it is. So we we we we use money as an excuse not to do the thing, but yet we'll spend fifteen hundred dollars a year on running corn all summer, planting a food plot over the you know, a pea patch over the summer, and and you know, like I said, protein feeders and things like that. And I and like you said, I'm not against those things, but uh are we uh I think the hab uh not I think clearly I have come to learn the habitat is the much more important, should be first thing, and then fill in the gaps with the rest of the stuff.

SPEAKER_03 36:29

Yeah, and like you said, um, you know, this goes back to just education. If you like I said, say you have 60 acres, you know, we talked about adapting, okay? We sat here and said fire's good, okay? Yes, fire's great. And then we decided we're like, wait, instead of burning that whole 60 acres, let's block it up in the 20s, 320s. And so that's what we're doing now is let's try to make this habitat, which like I said, there's no reason not to burn, but instead of that whole 60, let's block it up and have three different habitats right there. Right. Um, and and and this all goes back to if we can get it. A lot of times landowners don't think um, you know, oh, I gotta burn this. Well, if you don't feel comfortable or if it's a little sketchy at first, let's get a professional out there to burn it. Kind of see what it does, and then let's maintain it by you know, one at one that one day maybe you could burn it. And you know, all it's gonna cost is diesel and gasoline. Right. It's dirt cheap. I mean, there's there's and but it's getting to that comfortability level of landowners on how to do that. And like you said, you know, we just need to focus our money in a different way sometimes. Um that's just it, that's that's that's it.

SPEAKER_01 37:49

Yeah, like if you're a landowner on a budget, you know, specifically, like maybe, maybe you can look and at what you're putting your money into, look into what it would cost to run fire through 20 acres. You're gonna produce more tonnage in 20 acres than you'll ever produce in a protein feeder over the course of a summer. What is the cost difference between those two things? Um, and that's that's something that I like myself have shifted towards greatly is is to the best of my ability, and I'm trying to do more and get better every year, is uh even like last year, I don't think I put a a bag of anything on the place until Septemberish to for pictures. It was mostly like what can I do outside of that, like you said, to improve those things and to work towards these things, but you mentioned one earlier and I I dove into it and I I want to find more information on it. Um the the classes that the forestry foundation or the the forestry department offers the to the burn manager classes. Yep. Where can do you know where you can find that information? Because I've not been able to find anything for 2026.

SPEAKER_03 39:04

I think it's uh on Alabama Forestry Commission's website. Um I think uh they usually let's see, they usually have one because they won't be doing anything right now because it's you know still the burn season. Right. So you have one in the summer, one in the I don't remember. I but I know I know that they rotate between the Auburn University and Foley and something up north as well. And it should be on their website, I believe.

SPEAKER_01 39:31

Okay, I don't think I've checked the forestry commission's actual website, so I've just pulled that up, I'll look at that, um, and and kind of see because like I said, that's information I'd love to continue getting out there. Um so which like I said happens sometimes. Um love the conversation, love, love where we're going. But let's let's get back specifically into by the way. I want to say that it was not planned for us to wear matching hats, but I did order. Um I don't know, it's been a couple months ago. Uh got on the website, and I'm gonna recommend you do that if you've never been on the Alabama Wildlife.org, man. There's so much stuff on there. I was perusing it earlier, like you were talking about the articles and stuff that y'all have that are written.

SPEAKER_03 40:17

Yeah, I mean um we're even doing stuff with the reefs down in Mobile. I mean, it's it's it's a ton of stuff that we're doing that that it would take too long to even talk about. Right, right, right. It's fantastic.

SPEAKER_01 40:26

Yeah, yeah. But um also there's an awesome shop on there um where you can buy your tags. Um, you can get hats, shirts, uh oh also, which I didn't even know. Hold on a second. I didn't even know that this was a thing. I actually bought mine off of eBay. I didn't know that you could still buy these off your website, but this is an awesome book. Um I'm looking at mine right there. Yeah, mine was within arm's reach. Um but uh yeah, so the Alabama Alabama Wildlife.org has all of this stuff on here, like I said, of just um tickets to the natureplex, no trespassing signs, shirts, hats, all those things. I'm probably fixing to spend some more money because now oh, I wanted to touch on this. So United Country, we celebrated 100 years in business last year. Um, Alabama Wildlife Federation's not far off from that. What's what is this year celebrate the the how many years? Oh let's see. Now you ask me. I can't remember. I don't want to misquote it. Is it 90 years? It's close to, yeah. It's either 85 or 90 years. I feel bad for being un 35. 35, yeah, yeah, yeah. 1935, and we're in 26, so that'd be 90 years. Yeah, 90 years, and we're you know, sitting here today in a lot of ways. I mean, at least in the circle of people that I know, unaware of everything that AWF has to offer to landowners and things like that. So let's talk about that. I'm a landowner, uh we've just talked about it. I've got I've got uh X number of acres in Longleaf. I want you to come help me devise a plan for, like we said, 320 block rotation on my place. Um, or and I understand like that, a lot of that can be determined by what's the feasible fire line, what's the natural kind of thing. So it could be 12, 18, 20, whatever. You know, it's not always we're just using that as an example. Is it you? Is there a team of you? Like I know you mentioned earlier y'all come a lot with even the Longleaf Alliance, Forestry Foundation. So walk me through that. I'm a landowner, I want you know, part of your longleaf initiative, those kind of things. What beginning uh say beginning to end? I don't know how much time we have on that, but but just walk me through the program, walk me through what it, you know, how how how we work.

SPEAKER_03 42:58

Yeah, so like I said, you'll reach out. Um, either someone will go online, find us a magazine or something, and basically we'll set up. Uh I'll give you a call, we'll talk about the property, kind of get your goals. I like to look at a map before by before I consult and talk with someone. Um, then we'll come up and set a field visit and kind of tour the property, kind of get an idea of what you want. I like to kind of map everything out there. Um, you know, if it's on the east side of the state, it's usually it's gonna always gonna be me. Um, and then the western it'll be Mr. Claude Jenkins. Um he um he helps with he does a ton over there, like you said. Uh he's been here since 1999. Um, you know, I've learned a ton from him, so uh it's been fantastic working with him. But uh he he he runs the west side um as well as our land stewardship assistant program as a whole, and um basically we'll come out there, look at the property, give you an idea of goals and stuff like that, and drop a map, drop a plan, uh go and Depth as much as the plan you want, kind of go. I usually start off with a five year plan with some people, you know, I've gone to 10 to plus years. Um, idea plan. Decide if you know funding is some an option. Um, then get you in contact with people like that as well with NRCS, you know, fish and wildlife service, all that stuff, and um kind of go from there. And um, yeah, so um please contact me if you have any questions or would like to to meet and we can help you out.

SPEAKER_01 44:32

Right. Um I keep getting distracted by these. I just realized this one matters to me. Um 319 2026, so coming in just a couple weeks, the wiregrass um AWF Wild Game Cookoff event. You ever been to one of those? I know the answer is yes. Tell me about it. So promote a wiregrass event for me, real quick.

SPEAKER_03 44:56

Yeah, so you know, it'll be an event and a bunch of conservations out there. Um, have some great food. I mean, their food is outstanding. Uh it's it's crazy how you know they'll have around, you know, 10 to 15 to 20 something cooked teams just kind of walk around for all the food, uh, vote, and at the end they'll uh give a plaque to all of the teams, which by the way, the teams take it very seriously and they keep all of their plaques. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

Right. Those people are serious about their cooking.

SPEAKER_03 45:31

Yeah, very serious. And it's it's this isn't this isn't just you know, some crock pot squirreling dumplings. No, it's like legit stuff, and it's good stuff. Um, but it's it's just a good time. It's uh good for conservation, it's good for you know, just talking with the public. It's just it's a good time. Um, I try to make as many as possible. Um, I think in total I made three or three last year, and they were fantastic. Um rain or shine. Remember, we had one in Lake Martin, and there was probably about a river running through the tent, but there was 400 something people still having a good time. So it was fantastic. Um, and people love it, they love these events, and um we see a lot of people, you know, come back, and that's that's we're really pushing the continuation of you know, it's not only expansion, but building up our attendance as well, right? At some of these events, and it's it's it's great to see.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Yeah, see, it's it's uh Thursday night um down here at the plant in Dothan. Oh, that's an awesome venue. Awesome venue. Um, yeah, so I all I gotta do is shoot the wife a text and find out if I need to get her a ticket or not. And um, yeah, I I can't wait to to check that out and and be there. Um, you know, and this this this again, you know, the old old saying of you know, ignorance isn't an excuse, and and and and I there's so many things that AWF offers from your programs to your education. Like I just stumbled across another one that like I have a nine-year-old who is obsessed with right now um just animal. Like she's there's just there's a YouTube channel called Snake Discovery. Like she's just into all of it. And I just noticed on here um under the the I I lost it whenever I went to look at the um it was like a junior wildlife scientist program. I gotta dive into that more.

SPEAKER_03 47:35

Like oh man, the summer camps they have too. That's crazy. They have some really good summer camps too, as well.

SPEAKER_01 47:42

It's awesome. That may be something that like my um Yeah, that my kids are or you know, that they would be super interested in. So so many programs, so many programs. I just want to keep hammering that out there, man. If anybody listening, watching TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, whatever, go to awf.org if you live in the state of Alabama and want to see the amount of programs, education, all the the cook-offs, man, everything that that you know the organization offers um just to promote conservation and you know, habitat improvements, um, all those, you know, just everything, everything that I I I hope that we we would all be passionate about. Like you said, I think we need to continue to kind of get grounded back in. Um I don't want to steal his his the the the thunder, but the habitat first, you know, there's a big business in the state, uh RSA big business. There's one of those consulting agencies that we've talked about called Habitat First Properties. Such a such an excellent business name for the world that he's in because like what we've talked about, habitat should be before everything. Before the feeder, before the food plot, before all the things, habitat should be of utmost importance. And you you made a good point, and I have to admit I'm one of those guys. You know, you you grow up in some of those ways, like the food plot is convenient for my I'm I convince myself that it's I'm doing this thing to better the deer or whatever, but really it's because I just want to have this easy spot to come flop down and sit in and hunt and not go find that natural through their habitat that they and actually hunt them in a sense, you know, the way the um the way it had to be done all those years ago before food plots and feeders and everything, before baiting was illegal in the state, before all those things.

SPEAKER_03 49:47

So yeah, yeah. Like I said, I I have no problem with you know people hunting over a food plot because it gets you outdoors, man. And you know, that's building a generation for more conservationists and more wildlife lovers. Um, you know, just like myself. I remember, you know, being a little kid and hunting over a food plot and kill my first deer. You know, that's why I'm a wildlife biologist. Uh you know, I didn't just decide out of the blue I want to be a wildlife biologist. I was molded and you know, that's how I was, man. And but uh yeah, no, there's you know, we were still trying to build our future generation of conservations, so but uh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 50:29

Yeah, absolutely. Uh and and that's you know, back to I don't want to be I don't want to sound overly, you know, I don't know what that word would be, but even by these things, and I asked that question of who's who's the next Will Primus, who's the next, you know, Fox Hayes, who's the next, you know, big voice and steward, and honestly, do we need another big one or do we just need a lot more taking their uh their fifty acres more seriously? Um, you know, to get back to that natural habitat. And it's like, well, I got three of them under my roof that that you know I can steward through, you know, these programs and these educations and and like and teach them those things. And like you said it uh earlier, but that's one thing I'm doing right now on my place, um, because we're starting to see from the habitats per perspective that we can affect, um, starting to see and have had turkeys on our place for the first time uh the last five or six years for the first time in my entire life. Um now they kind of come and go through there. I think it's again, we we don't have everything that they need. Yeah. Um, you know, and that that gets back into that conversation we were having earlier about the you know, burn rotations of having different habitats for brooding, nesting. Uh it's all a cog and the wheel, but we're running traps right now, you know. I mean, just because that's that's one thing I know I can do. And I've got five dog proof traps out, got one raccoon yesterday. But what I did is like yesterday, picked the kids up from school and daycare, went home, changed clothes, I said, All right, let's go. And it's that constant conversation with them while we're doing that. Well, why are we doing this? You know what I mean? Like they're asking me, my my boy's three, um, three and a half, and he's like, Why, why do we have the raccoon? What are we doing with the raccoon? And it's instilling that in them, and I I think that's an important conversation through even just the habitat with the fire, the everything we, you know, everything that that entails.

SPEAKER_03 52:42

Yeah, and he's gonna remember that, and he's gonna carry that, and that's that's how what our future generations are gonna be. You know, you said I got you know three under my roof, three's enough to make a difference, man. And uh, I don't think we need to have that, you know, massive voice again. I think we just need to transition back on the rails, you know, right, and kind of go that way of what that used to be, you know. Um, but yeah, um would you agree though?

SPEAKER_01 53:11

Because I feel like it, and maybe it's me educating us. Are we starting to see Alabamians take it more serious? Are we starting like private landowners starting to really s understand and see the potential of what Alabama has to offer? Yes, and not just that old line of you know, can't grow big deer in Alabama, whatever it may be. And and I know that changes throughout the state, but our area in particular down here in the southeast corner, I've been told my whole life you can't grow big deer down here, and and you know, those kind of variables, and it's like, well, what are we what are we doing to even try other than protein pellets and mineral blocks?

SPEAKER_03 53:47

Yeah, there I think there's a massive push. Um, and especially not only um are we getting a lot of calls, I'm getting a lot of implementated acres. You know, basically they're doing the work, and that's that's what's you know good about working here is I've really seen that when I go out and take the time of the landowner, a landowner will be like, well, he took the time out for me, I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna, you know, follow what he's deciding and I'm gonna do it. And I'm gonna because they are so excited because they want, you know, the two years later after we want to go look at it. I want to show him the property, or I'm gonna show you know the other biologist the property, and then I want them to see that I did this work. And that's that's what a lot we we deal with. And um, especially when I was in South Alabama, um, you know, quail have been getting talked have been talked about a lot more, a lot more than I remember. So that's good as well. Um, I I do think we're making a push. I do, I still think we're off. I think it's gonna take a lot more time than we think, but we're off, but um, but we're getting there. We're getting there.

SPEAKER_00 54:49

Right.

SPEAKER_01 54:50

Well, and you know, I think that's I like that though. I like because for for even in my career and my goals and my objectives, and and it's like, yes, I want to be a uh asset, I want to be a uh, you know, understanding these programs from a land agent perspective, it just makes me a better land agent to have that conversation like what we just talked about. I could be dealing with a a young family or anybody for that matter that finally was able to buy their first 50 acre track, and they're putting everything they have into the purchase of that property and saying, you know, hey, I can do this, I can I can buy it. It's gonna take me a few years to be able to do anything on it. Like I, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. Well, no, did you know AWF offers these free consultation? You know what I mean? Like, so it there, there's that, there's it's a meshing there that I think to your like to your point, I think I would agree as I've thought about that. I don't, I don't know, I don't know that we need another Fox Hays or Will Primos or or whoever to really kind of be that pioneer. Uh we just need that grassroots to continue to get serious and implement and I think have conversations like this and props to the state of Alabama, pro you know, the the programs that they've started offering just from the educational perspective of like, hey, come out here and we'll we'll do a five-acre burn with you and show you that it's it's not it's not as scary as you may think it is. And uh, like I said over the weekend up there, it was it was men, women, children, it was everybody. You know what I mean? And just exposing people to uh the information and the the the the I've never done anything in my life that is more that sounds weird. I mean, I I'm not comparing being a father, being any of those things, but uh to to make uh and to pour your heart into improvement and and and effort and work and see it pay off, like you said, and see a quail and see songbirds and see turkey and see you know what I mean, like more deer, like this past deer season was the best deer season I've ever experienced in my life on our home farm.

SPEAKER_02 57:08

A lot of people have said that it's been a good season.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Yeah, and and and and and I contribute that so much to while there's still more to do there for me and to kind of develop a plan, we j are the habitat is just a hundred times better than it was ten years ago, whenever it was it was um overgrowth hardwoods and those kind of things. So there's we're just holding so many more deer throughout the property that it's not isolated. And um man, when you see that for me, it it's almost like kind of pulling pour pouring gasoline on that fire, is like, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next thing that I can do? And like I think to your point, if we can just get more landowners walking in that direction, especially in like community style, like what we talked about. Like, man, if you could get five adjoining landowners to agree, hey, this and because maybe you do something on a bigger scale then where hey, we're gonna burn yours this year and not all like those are all things that have to be sorted out. But if we can work in that cooperative scale and manage managing habitat, like what could the state of Alabama become? What could your county become in in quality quail, deer, turkey, you know, insert game species?

SPEAKER_03 58:25

Yep. No, I agree. Um, I agree. And um I I think uh especially we've seen a huge rise, and it was after COVID as well, but in people just being outdoors, right? And you know, maybe we're starting to see more people instead of you know looking around, you know, staying inside, they're wanting to dive deep outdoors, and they're realizing, well, there's some areas that you know that aren't as pretty as I want, and they're pushing for, whoa, how can we improve this? And I think you know, not only did COVID make a big dent in that, um, but I think this generation, you know, we grew up behind, you know, a phone and stuff like that, but I think it's starting to transition a little more into in certain areas especially, but we are interested. Um, you know, hunting isn't just a hunt, man. It's it's building a relationship, like you said, with a child that's you know, you know, going out with your grandfather. It's it's it that's the relationships and stuff I will always remember, you know, and what built me of what kind of a person I am and stuff like that. Um, but yeah, it's and it's just yeah, it's it's just good to see. And I I really it I enjoy this job a lot. It's it's very it's it's a very comforting, successful job. Um makes me feel very, very proud. Um, you know, because there's always someone younger, you know, it you know, if if it's a grandkid, if it's a child or you know, a son, a daughter, you know, they're doing this for them. You know, a landowner's doing this for them, and that's why they call me out there.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:07

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:08

And I find out very quickly on the reason they're doing it. Yeah, they'll bring them up very quickly, and I'm like, ah, yeah. So it's it's it's a very self, you know, pleasing job.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:18

So yeah, I I I could imagine. I I could imagine with that. Well, so are you you gonna be in Dotham 319? Uh probably not. You don't want to come to our cook-off? It's okay, I understand. I'm sure I well, I'm not, I'm sure I know you're a very busy guy just from our communication back and forth of getting things scheduled. I was just I I I like I said I'm definitely gonna make it a point to be there at that one. Um, and uh I'd look back and maybe even some more. And we love hopping in the car, taking a road trip, doing whatever, you know, may look at some other ones, but definitely gonna make it a point to to attend that the local cook-off. But um, I keep forgetting that the the screen there, but uh all right. Well, I've taken a bunch of your time, a lot of awesome conversation, a lot of awesome information. I feel like at some point there's probably gonna be a need to talk about it some more as um questions continue to rise. And like I said, I just want to continue to be a resource um that I to the best of my ability. Um, so any final thoughts from you on on um any any maybe something you didn't, you know, we skipped over, missed, anything like that. How can people get in touch with you if you if they're uh and I'll I'll throw your contact information or at least your email. I don't want to, you know, if if people have questions, you service, and I can even put the map up. Um I know you mentioned if I'll send you the map. Yeah, you're listening, watching it, it kind of runs at a diagonal across the state when you think about um is it yeah, so east region and west region is how it's divided, right? Yep. Um, so you furthest north for you is Cherokee all the way down to Mobile County and everything to the southeast of that. Um so obviously here in the Wiregrass area, all of our Henry Dale, Geneva, Covington, all the good the good places. So I imagine you have a lot of road time.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:17

Yeah, yeah, I do. Um yeah, and just to close out, I mean, if anyone has any questions, uh, you know, wants wants me to come out and see the property, please do. Um, you know, my email is tsulvan at alabama wildlife.org. You can cocktact me that way. Um, you know, even if you're not in the if you're not in my counties, give me give me an email. We'll we'll we'll figure it out. We'll someone will come out and see you.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:41

Right, right. At least a point of contact uh yeah, absolutely. Um to get across. But uh, yeah, man, Tom, I I I I appreciate it so much. Yeah, um, I hate that it took so long to finally get this together. Um but but I I uh and I think for me, a lot of uh clear path, clear kind of the brain's gonna be moving a lot, like you said, of how can I play my part in in being a cog in that wheel and continuing to do things try to do things like this and spread the word on the habitat management and those kind of things. So man, I I certainly appreciate your time, appreciate the conversation, appreciate Alabama Wildlife Federation. Um, like I said, I'm probably gonna end up ordering me another t-shirt or something here in a minute, but uh but thank you so much for your time, man. Have a have a good day and um I don't know, good luck to you in the come turkey season, I guess.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:35

Yeah, there you go. Yeah, I appreciate you having me on, Danny. I appreciate it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:38

Yes, sir. Thank you for tuning in to this episode of Diligently Hunting, brought to you by United Country Properties South and UC Hunting Properties powered by Real Tree. We would love to hear from you. If you have any topics that you would like to hear discussed or have any questions about today's conversation or the buying and selling of real estate, please contact me at my email address or at one of my social media platforms linked in the show notes. Diligently and God bless you.