2016: Rogue War in the Moonlight

In 2016, the Oscar race seemed to be hurtling towards "White people get their dream show biz careers but are still sad about it," until a mid-acceptance speech twist handed the top prize to Moonlight, a quiet examination of three key moments in the life of an impoverished gay youth in the ghetto. Claire, Erin, and Dan break it down, and how one of our hosts completely missed the point until rewatching. Then in a complete tone shift, the box office title is split between two Disney properties, as the Rebellion and the Avengers each find themselves at war. Rogue One is Disney-owned Lucasfilm's first attempt at a non-saga Star War, while Captain America: Civil War splits up the Avengers team they'd just introduced a year ago. Which is best, but which is the favourite? Find out!

Find all of our episodes and the rest of Writing Therapy Productions' various entertainments at www.writingtherapyproductions.com

Transcript

SPEAKER_07 0:14

Since 1928, the Academy Punch of Picture Arts and Sciences has handed out awards what it considers the best films of the year. Not that time audiences have had their own opinion. This is Academy vs. Audience, where we revisit all the best picture winners and the corresponding box office champions. I'm Dan Gibbons. With me as always, is Aaron Weir. How's it feeling, Aaron?

SPEAKER_04 0:33

Dan, it is so good. We have watched movies that like fill my heart with joy. We're here talking to each other. It's a Monday. Everything's great.

SPEAKER_07 0:43

And Claire Bolton, what's up, Claire?

SPEAKER_05 0:45

I am in my last week of a tour, and the shows have been going great. We have fish in the show. The kids think that's hilarious. So all over, good times.

SPEAKER_07 0:58

And it's spring in the mountains, so my good pals, the ground squirrels have awoken. Nature's alarm system to tell you there's no bear in your parking lot.

SPEAKER_05 1:08

It's a good thing to have. It's good to know there's no bear in your parking lot.

SPEAKER_04 1:12

Avoiding bear oh although, I mean everyone who knows me knows this. All I want is to see a bear from my car. And I drive in the mountains all the time. All the time. Like I used to work in the mountains. I used to drive trains in the mountains. And yet, no bear.

SPEAKER_07 1:29

I saw a mama bear and two little cubs from my car, but not on a road where I could really slow down at all.

SPEAKER_05 1:36

Hmm, fair.

SPEAKER_07 1:37

Not without risking getting hit by a bus.

SPEAKER_05 1:40

And you don't want that. Especially not in the mountains.

SPEAKER_07 1:44

No.

SPEAKER_05 1:45

But the bear, guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:48

Bears. I just want the bear.

SPEAKER_05 1:51

One day I believe, I believe this will happen for you. One day you will see a bear at a safe distance.

SPEAKER_04 1:57

One day we will appropriately see a bear. And the bear.

SPEAKER_07 2:01

And that it will not be a Bradley Whitford finally gets to see a merman Cabin in the Wood situation.

SPEAKER_05 2:09

Ah. Hell. Let's never hope for that.

SPEAKER_04 2:12

Good reference, though.

SPEAKER_07 2:17

Now, as alluded to a couple episodes back, we hit one of the all-time surprise winners, not because it wasn't highly regarded, and not because people weren't already gearing up to call the presumed winner a problematic choice the second the credits of the ceremony ended, but because it wasn't declared the best picture until about two minutes into a different film's acceptance speech. And a lot of film people put down their hot take tweets and said, okay, okay. Never mind. So Claire, take us through Moonlight.

SPEAKER_05 3:03

Alright. This is the story of one person, and we see him grow. We have three periods of life. We start with Little, who is just a little guy, and he's so sad because he's being bullied for being different. And he has one friend, and unfortunately, that friend is the biggest drug dealer in the neighborhood. But Little learns and he grows, and the next phase of his life is Chiron, where he's a teenager. And unfortunately, his life is not getting any easier. The bullying is continuing, it's getting worse. And his mom is slipping farther and farther into the drugs that are ravaging the neighborhood. And due to some very unfortunate circumstances, poor Shirone falls into the cycle and the patterns and is arrested. And we go to his final stage, black. We see the full adult and the consequences of his actions and learn that he has now unfortunately completed the cycle, all while dealing with his own sexuality and being and friendship. All by moonlight. Oh my heart! My heart, that opening scene of him just running away. My heart.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

I know it's so sad. But like, do you think maybe it has hope? Like, maybe Chiron and Kevin can like maybe not be together, but can like be friends? Like maybe they can re-something at the end.

SPEAKER_07 4:50

I absolutely think there is that hope. I absolutely think that a door is being opened out of the only life uh Chiron thought he could have. And maybe that isn't like a permanent relationship with Kevin. You probably shouldn't try to settle down with the only intimate experience you've ever had in your whole ass life right away, but it's still like one person who's willing to say this doesn't have to be your life.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

Like maybe they could be adult lovers for a little bit. Right? And maybe like pro process it okay.

SPEAKER_05 5:27

Right? And I what I love is that they're still best friends. Like, because we see Kevin's there the whole time as well. Like with little, and he's like, why why you can't show him that you're soft? And like, come on, buddy, like, and the whole play fighting scene and the being like I knew you're my best friend all the way, like through that the scene on the beach, through everything, Kevin's still there. Like, it's such a beautiful friendship, and it's the only true friend he has. Because none of the adults in his life are good. His adults are all awful.

SPEAKER_04 6:03

I mean, I think he's one drug dealer dead adult buddy. I think that guy tries really hard. And I think being friends with being friends, being father, like whatever he's doing with Little, I do think he's like, oh no, the repercussions of my actions. Being a drug dealer could be bad. Maybe.

SPEAKER_05 6:27

Maybe. But then we never find out because he dies.

SPEAKER_07 6:31

He dies. He tries to high road Little's mother about getting high on the crack rock instead of raising her child. Managed to attempt one blow and she's like, Oh, are you gonna raise my son? Just shouts back, Are you gonna? Oh, that's but while she is hammering him with addict speak, she does paint him into a bit of a corner because he's not in a position to adopt a child or alter his business model.

SPEAKER_06 7:00

Mm-mm.

SPEAKER_07 7:01

And the end of that segment, Little does call him out on a little saying, You sell drugs to my mama, don't you?

SPEAKER_04 7:10

Okay, but no, the one thing with Juan is Juan has done a lot of things. Juan never sold drugs directly to Little's mom.

SPEAKER_05 7:20

It's true. He sold them to that boyfriend or multiple boyfriends who then gave them to her. Now, to be fair, that that's like not an excuse.

SPEAKER_04 7:29

Yeah. But for him, yeah, I'm sure it is. Like for that boy, that man, he's like, no, it's okay. I tried to keep it away from Little. I love that boy. I love that boy. I'm gonna teach him how to float.

SPEAKER_05 7:43

That scene, oh my gosh, so good. So sweet. And like you can truly see like the bond between the two of them. I also just love that this is this is a reality for some people in some situations. Like, there was no calling the police. You find a kid hiding out in a crack house, you cannot. Juan is not in the position to call child services, to call any author. Like, that is not even a possibility. No, only thing he can do is take the kid until the kid tells him where he belongs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 8:21

No one in these projects trusts the man. Nope. Okay. And I know I am not endearing myself to that community by referring to the man, but I couldn't just say the cops. It's also social services, it's also child protective services.

SPEAKER_05 8:39

Mm-hmm. There's no one that he can call that would safely help this kid.

SPEAKER_07 8:44

No, anyone he calls risks a well-meaning white person making everything worse.

SPEAKER_05 8:50

Yep. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 8:51

Maybe showing up and trying to explain to one why he's wrong about jazz. I'm sorry, that was unnecessary.

SPEAKER_04 8:59

You know, that's the thing with this movie. Like the second act conflict involves uh Shiron, our little black, our main character who goes by many names throughout his life, walking into his science class and beating one of his co-students with a chair. Yep. And we're still just like, yeah. Yeah. All right. It's it's belt earned. It did. That kid was a dick. That kid was the worst. The fact he knows what he's doing. Yeah. When he is like bullying, baiting uh Kevin into punching Chiron at school, he knows. He knows.

SPEAKER_05 9:44

He came up to Kevin specifically because he knows that him and Chiron are friends, and he's like, Remember that game we used to play, keep him down? Well, guess what? We're gonna play it, and I'm gonna pick. And you know, we as the audience know as soon as he says that, he knows, because he's a jerk, he knows that this is what he's doing. He just didn't expect to get beaten by a chair.

SPEAKER_07 10:06

The end goal of this process was let's all beat up Sharon a little, but or a lot, and to twist a knife further. He's like, and I'm gonna make his one friend kick it off. I don't know if he knew the full extent of how bad of a knife twist that was.

SPEAKER_03 10:27

No.

SPEAKER_07 10:28

But getting smacked with a chair and then smacked with the remaining pieces of that chair while down felt earned.

SPEAKER_05 10:38

It's terrible to say of a child, but he deserved it.

SPEAKER_07 10:41

If anything, I was a little disappointed he was still moving. Which, again, terrible thing to say about a child, but I said what I said.

SPEAKER_05 10:47

Yeah. He was so mean. He was so mean. And there's no reason. Like, bullying makes me mad to begin with, but there's no reason. They're picking on this poor little boy his entire childhood.

SPEAKER_04 10:59

And his mom tries to justify it by being like, Well, you know why the boys beat him up. And you're like, No, say more. Yeah. Paula? Whatever her name is. Say more, Mama Chiron. Yeah. Because he's thaw he doesn't even like okay, wait, what? A drug deal is going on? So he hides in a crack house?

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Like, he's a child. He starts this whole thing at like seven years old. This whole movie starts with him as like a literal baby.

SPEAKER_04 11:31

A little boy is scared when a scary thing happens. And so it's okay that everyone treats him like shit because he's gay. And I understand, like, the the movie is doing a great job. The movie is doing a great job. Oh, it really is poor job.

SPEAKER_05 11:44

That's why we're so mad. That's why we're so mad, because it's done really well.

SPEAKER_07 11:48

I do believe that it is hard to be gay in the ghetto.

SPEAKER_04 11:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 11:52

She feels accurate.

SPEAKER_04 11:54

Yeah. We're mad of reality. We're not mad at the movie. The movie's doing the right thing.

SPEAKER_05 11:59

Exactly. And that's this is why like it evokes all these emotions because it's done so well. This movie is so real. And like none of the three of us have ever had this experience. But like my heart, my feelings, I just like, this is a hard movie to watch because I have so many feelings for this poor child. And the cycle, you see the cycle all around him, and the fact that he then goes into it, like his end, act three, he's in it. He's a drug dealer.

SPEAKER_04 12:32

He's a scary drug dealer.

SPEAKER_07 12:34

That's why it makes sense for me that we actually open on one and not Chiron. Chiron. Because one introduces us to the world Chiron is growing up in and gives a glimpse at his future.

SPEAKER_04 12:53

Yeah. Yeah. But you think like maybe because Kevin is a dad. Like Kevin has a child, and Kevin and Chiron have reconnected. So like maybe maybe there's hope for these two wounded men to recognize that like maybe we can do things differently. And Shiron says that when he's talking to his mom, and his mom's like, could you love me for could you forgive me? And he's like, No, I hate you, but I love you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 13:22

Yeah, that scene. Also, Naomi Harris, can we just oh, she we've seen her many a time already, but she is so good.

SPEAKER_07 13:34

Blow some doors off for crack rock fans.

SPEAKER_05 13:38

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And watching her spiral. Because we she starts, she's uh in um some sort of hospital at because she starts uh in Scrubs, so she works somewhere medical-esque, and then just watching that downward spiral of her with the addiction and the terrible boyfriends and the like burden of single motherhood upon her, and at this point in time also having a son that's different than the other boys.

SPEAKER_07 14:10

It's just the little the little signs of how the crack's going wrong. Now the TV's missing. Or Little has to take a bath by boiling water on the stove and then pouring in some dishwasher soap.

SPEAKER_05 14:24

Because they don't have any soap or hot water. Like it's so sad. And it's such a beautifully done movie to show her downward spiral, but also keep the focus on this child. Because this is the he's the movie.

SPEAKER_04 14:39

Oh my god, and then in the final act, like the third act where he goes to visit her and she's like, I can't leave here. Yeah, like I live here, I'm gonna help people. I cannot leave. And she doesn't say it, but it was like clearly implied that she cannot leave because she will backslide. She has to live.

SPEAKER_07 14:59

Yeah, yeah. She just knows the second she's out of the addiction treatment facility, she's going back on the crack.

SPEAKER_04 15:07

Yeah. And he knows that too. When he says, Yeah, mama, that's good. Like he knows.

SPEAKER_05 15:13

He does. He does. And he also doesn't. I know he doesn't, he lives in Atlanta now. He's separated from Miami from all of this, but he doesn't want to help her with that. Like, he can't be in any way responsible for her continuing her addiction.

SPEAKER_04 15:29

As he should not be.

SPEAKER_05 15:31

No, he's her child. Her baby. Ugh.

SPEAKER_07 15:35

And she has to grapple with the fact that sometimes it's too late to start being a caring parent.

SPEAKER_06 15:42

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 15:43

She's like, I moved you to Atlanta to keep you out of a life of crime. It's like, too late. Yeah. You had fifteen, sixteen years to show up and parent and provide a better way of life, and instead you did a lot of crack and slept with a lot of random dudes and frisked him in case his surrogate mother gave him $10 to get a sandwich.

SPEAKER_04 16:05

The scene where she's like, Don't come home. So he doesn't come home. And then she's like, Well, I didn't say don't come home all night.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

Yeah, like, where were you? Oh.

SPEAKER_04 16:17

I said don't come home while he's here. Like, a thing this child should know. This teenager should be like, oh yeah, no, my mom's John left. So now I can come home.

SPEAKER_05 16:27

Now I can come home. And like I love, I love Janelle Monet uh in general. But in this movie, she is so good at being just solid. Like she is his person, his one adult that is actually like solid in his life.

SPEAKER_04 16:47

Even from the beginning, like when she first meets him when he when he's seven, and how she like discusses things with him versus how Juan does. Like this woman knows. And I have no like I know we don't see her in the future, future, future flash forward. I have no doubt they still have a small weird relationship. Yeah. Because K Kevin says he got his phone number from Yeah, from her.

SPEAKER_07 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 17:15

Paula brings up like you're still in touch with Teresa. He's like, yes, it's just that they do now live in different cities.

SPEAKER_05 17:21

Yeah. But like it's such a beautiful relationship because she's also not trying to be his mom. Like, there's not she's like, I'm not gonna mother you, I'm not gonna talk. But like when you're in my house, you're gonna respect me and you're gonna do this, and then when he comes to her as a teenager because he's kicked out of his house, she makes up the bed for him. She's like, Okay, we'll see you in the morning. Like, good night, you know, like she is his constant, and yet she can't be his parent.

SPEAKER_07 17:51

No. Unfortunately, Sharon only gets one mom. And it was Paula.

SPEAKER_04 17:56

Yeah, it's not a good one.

SPEAKER_07 17:58

No, but uh led me to, in the third act, describe it as his mother is the trauma that won't go away. Kevin is the tragedy he tried to bury.

SPEAKER_05 18:07

Yeah. Their relationship is so tragic as well, because you're watching you're watching this poor kid also grapple the entire movie with who he is. Like, who am I? Not just like who am I in this world, but who am I? Like, do I like boys? Am I like that that beautiful scene with Juan at the table where he's like, am I gay? And Juan's like, whatever, it doesn't matter. Like if you are, you are. If you're not, you're not. Like, great. It's just like when he says queer is a thing that shitty queer?

SPEAKER_04 18:40

No, fake. Fague is a thing that shitty people say when they want someone to feel bad about being gay. That is such a beautiful way of describing a slur.

SPEAKER_05 18:49

Yes. It's so great. Because Juan's also like, I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 18:54

Juan doesn't care. Juan does not give a shit if this kid is gay or not.

SPEAKER_05 18:58

No, he's like, you're a human. You're a little kid. Right now, you're an eight-year-old kid sitting at my table.

SPEAKER_07 19:05

I mostly care that you're this hungry. Yeah. Considering you're still seven.

SPEAKER_05 19:09

You're gonna keep eating all my chicken. Stop eating all my chicken.

SPEAKER_07 19:13

So my moonlight confession is that I think this might be of everything we've talked about since episode one, my greatest example of the first time I simply didn't get it. And that includes Saratoga, where I wrote on Al Gore's internet the first time I watched it that I couldn't tell what scenes the late female lead was missing from when the entire third act was phone calls about the female lead or resolving the romantic arc via her best friend. But no, this is the one I think, and I've described it thusly, I missed the story looking too hard for plot.

SPEAKER_04 20:03

Okay, that you know Dan, that is the very first statement. There is no plot whatsoever. Nothing happens, nothing is resolved. Nope. This is a character, character and plot and scenario exploration. And comparing it to Lololand, which is a thing we do have to talk about because the world is going to. Yeah. Yep. It is a very different movie. So different. Also, I think we just have to say this now. So I didn't I did not watch the Oscars live, but I did watch the moment. Like I watched the Oscar speech. And the way the Lola Land guys handled this is insane. It's wild. I know you see the moment Warren Warren Beatty is like, oh no, we have the wrong envelope. And Fate Dunnoy is just like, whatever.

SPEAKER_07 20:58

Because Warren Beatty was pretty sure the Oscar for Best Picture didn't go specifically to Emma Stone.

SPEAKER_04 21:03

Yep. The guy who was given the wrong envelope, letting everyone do their speeches, and then go, okay, so anyway, win win. Moonlight did. And the weird beat lands, and he goes, No, I'm not joking. Moonlight did actually win, so figure that out. Yeah. Like the way it was handled was so weird. And I that that like kind of like fucks it up for this movie. Because this movie is so different.

SPEAKER_05 21:33

It's so different. There's an interview with one of the stage managers because he there's only like three people that know who the winners are. And the like one of them's a stage manager of some sort. And he was walking somebody back to their seat, like another uh winner back to their seat from the like holding area at the back. While this was all happening, heard the announcement and went, oh. Oh no, that's incorrect. But like it's only him and like two other people in the whole building that know this. And so he's like, I didn't know what to do because I have like so and so with me, and I'm walking and I'm trying to get on headset to be like, we have to stop this. This is wrong. But Faye Dunaway is doing her thing. The people are already like walking to the stage, the announcers announcing the like wins for Lala and like all that stuff. And so it's like this huge like because it took them a while to also be like, we have to like backstage must have been.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

But like if you watch the video, the first guy who accepted the award, who was like, Oh my god, yes, we went for Lola Land, like someone taps his shoulder, yeah, gives him the proper envelope, and then he's just like behind everyone else through all of the speeches, just like whispering in people's ears. Yep. And I just feel like his moment where he's like, Well, that was great, but okay, so we didn't win, is like the worst possible way of handling that.

SPEAKER_05 23:07

It was, it truly was. Because you're like, was there nobody? Like a producer somebody, right? Like a somebody. Why didn't somebody stop the show? That's a showstopper moment.

SPEAKER_07 23:23

It's a little sucky that they made the producers of La La Land correct the mistake on camera.

unknown 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 23:32

Everybody was saying how this impacted Moonlight, how it diminished their moment because now they gotta come up and restart everything after the wrong cast and crew shows up, and everybody's reeling for that. I'm like, yeah, fair. But the producers of La La Land are not the villains in this story. No. No.

SPEAKER_04 23:52

It's insane they made this like, I don't even know who this man is. He's just like a bald man. I'm like, oh no, this bald man has to deal with this.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

Well, and it's wild because you can see the like trickle watch watching it. You can see the like trickle through like the cast that's standing on stage at where he's like, we didn't win, we didn't win, we didn't win. And like you can see everybody be like, what? Where can what's happening? Before he makes his way up to the mic to be like, not us. Like, it's insane.

SPEAKER_04 24:22

And I like Lala Land. It is hard to say, but it's good in my heart. Moonlight, less good in my heart, but good in my brain. Yep.

SPEAKER_07 24:35

Lalaland worked in a lot of levels, and there's only one Oscar that I did win that I really disagree with, and I've probably brought this up on this podcast multiple times because I do it so so often, is my clarion call of one particular category. That being City of Stars isn't even the best song in La Laland!

SPEAKER_04 25:02

Okay, and to be fair, like Moonlight is winning a best song. No. The only songs I remember are when Kevin's like, Well, sometimes people come to my restaurant and they play old songs, and the old songs make me think about you.

SPEAKER_07 25:17

No, that one was not stolen from Moonlight. That one was stolen from Moana, but that's another matter. Anyway, my I missed the point until I rewatched it, Revelation, was that it's not about a progression of incidents, it is about three moments. The three moments that Sharon confronts his identity and his sexuality in some manner. From asking one, this thing people call me, is that who I am, and does that mean I'm bad, to having his first moment of real intimacy with Kevin, followed almost immediately by his primary bully finding a way to ruin it, to finally saying out loud, You're the only man I've ever been You're the only human being I've ever had that kind of intimate moment with.

SPEAKER_05 26:07

That moment. And then the final shot of just the two of them, like Kevin just sort of holding Shirone, like just being held.

SPEAKER_03 26:17

It's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 26:19

It's such a beautiful moment. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 26:22

Like Shiron can he can leave Atlanta. He can leave Atlanta, he can go to Florida, they can be okay. It can be okay.

SPEAKER_07 26:29

It can. Yeah. And you know what? He very well might because the play this is based on was semi-autobiographical. So that says, yes, there's hope for Sharon. It might not get officially published, but it will get bought up as a movie and win best picture. And it makes sense that their reconnection is at a diner because every moment of care and affection he's been shown in his life has involved food.

SPEAKER_04 26:54

Mm-hmm. His mom's not going to feed him.

SPEAKER_07 26:57

His mom is not going to feed him. I flagged his mother says when seven-year-old Little is being brought home. Oh, he can take care of himself as the clarion call of parents who have given that child few other options.

SPEAKER_05 27:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 27:12

So yeah, once you understand the story structure, you will no longer think that it just sort of goes to credits out of goddamn nowhere.

SPEAKER_05 27:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 27:19

My bad. Moonlight. My bad. Take back some of the things I said about you on my blog. Anyway, Moonlight was nominated for eight Oscars, of which it won three. Picture, adapted screenplay, and supporting actor for Mahersha Ali. It lost director, supporting actress for Naomi Harris, cinematography, editing, and score. But some of those were going to be hard to pry away from La La Land. Yeah. It's so well directed, and it's a musical, so it's got kind of an edge on score. It won the Golden Globe for Best Drama, but it lost The Critic's Choice and the BAFTA to, I'm pretty sure La La Land. Yeah. If I'm wrong, I probably have a note about that coming up. No, I'm not wrong.

SPEAKER_04 28:06

The thing about La La Land is it is joyful, right? Like it's a very old school musical. It's very like classic early Hollywood. In 2016, we didn't know we needed that movie. But things were gonna get dark. Yep.

SPEAKER_05 28:21

Just like a month later, things were gonna not go well.

SPEAKER_07 28:26

Things were starting to go real, real bad.

SPEAKER_04 28:28

Yep. Yeah. So I I do understand like a deep, like visceral response from the Academy to be like, do we want this? They just didn't know how badly they did want that.

SPEAKER_07 28:40

Yep. And it's sweetly melancholy, but I think I discussed how the ending goes way, way back in an American in Paris. I mean, yes. Yep. Rotten Tomatoes ranks this one sky high at number five of all best picture winners. Wait, what? Number five under All About Eve and Over the Godfather, Wow High.

SPEAKER_05 29:02

That is Wow High. Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_04 29:06

When I watched it, I was in no mood to be watching this movie. I'm not gonna discuss the reasons for that on this podcast. But I was in no mood. But I don't think that's the only reason that I'm like, no, like this is a good 30s, 20s.

SPEAKER_07 29:23

I absolutely uh agree with you because I have it at number 36. That seems more correct. Under Titanic and two spots over ordinary people.

SPEAKER_05 29:32

Yes. Yes, that's a good spot for it. In the ordinary people zone.

SPEAKER_04 29:36

Yeah. Yes. It is very ordinary people. No, it's better because ordinary people is about privileged white people. Yep. Which is why, Dan, you have put it above ordinary people. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 29:48

That's one of the reasons, yes.

SPEAKER_04 29:49

Yep. But yes, that zone, that zone is correct. Yeah, it is a character life situation exploration, so that's where it lives.

SPEAKER_07 29:59

Other nominees in my personal rank ordering. At number nine, fences.

SPEAKER_03 30:05

Oh, fences. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 30:08

And brief summary, fuck this movie and everyone who's ever nice to this movie.

SPEAKER_05 30:15

I shan't see it.

SPEAKER_07 30:18

Viola Davis took supporting actress from Naomi Harris in pretty much every award body, but I maintain this is not the best Oscar-winning movie Viola Davis was in in the year of Yansey Cravat 2016. That would be Best Makeup and Hairstyle winner, Suicide Squad. I said what I said.

unknown 30:38

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 30:38

Alright.

SPEAKER_07 30:39

At number eight, Manchester by the Sea with Casey Affleck as a man lost in grief who nonetheless has to return to the titular town and take custody of his nephew when his brother suddenly passes. I don't think it does the best job of telling a story, but I have gained more appreciation for the message of no amount of loss and grief is enough to stop the world's petty inconveniences.

SPEAKER_05 31:02

Can Casey Affleck do uh an accent from Manchester?

SPEAKER_07 31:09

Well, Manchester, Massachusetts.

SPEAKER_05 31:11

Okay. Okay, that's it because that's possible. So yes, correct. Ha, thank goodness. Because I was like, hold up, hold up.

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Look, I love that director, and my feelings about Casey Affleck exist. He's a shit bag. He sucks. He is he's a bad man. Not like an offensively bad man, just like I don't ever want to meet him. And he is bad at having women. He is.

SPEAKER_07 31:40

He is bad at having women. On my blog, I when I was ranking and reviewing all the best picture winners, I would give each little gag title. My gag title for that one was Death is Sad. Who Knew?

SPEAKER_05 31:55

Not Casey Affleck, maybe. I don't know. Certainly not.

SPEAKER_04 31:59

Who knows?

SPEAKER_07 32:01

At number seven is Hacksaw Ridge. Mel Gibson directs Andrew Garfield as real life soldier Desmond Das, a committed pacifist who refused to use a gun, sent several days behind enemy lines, saving wounded soldiers in the titular battle. As Sergeant Yorks go, it's pretty okay. The first act is very charming, and the third effectively thrilling, but the second act where they try to bully him out of boot camp, drags like crazy, and Gibson is trying to celebrate Das's pacifism, but also wants to get off on spectacular Brave Art style gruesome war violence, and I feel you have to pick one.

SPEAKER_05 32:36

Yeah, that's a lot. That's a lot going on right there.

SPEAKER_04 32:39

Yeah, a medium Sergeant York, which was also a medium movie. Yep.

SPEAKER_07 32:43

It's not the worst Sergeant York on the list. Number six is Lion, based on the true story of a kid in India who fell asleep on a train, woke up on the wrong side of the country, then 25 years later uses Google Earth to track down his village and reunite with his birth family. Well, most of them. It's pretty good. It's just every plot beat lasts five to ten minutes longer than you want it to, because there's never a second way any of them can go. So you do kind of start thinking get there. Number five, the third film to hit 14 total nominations, La La Land, Ryan Gosling and Emma Stone, and a musical about two would be LA artists chasing love in their dreams and maybe having to pick one for now. Correct. It won all the best director awards, The Bafta and The Critical's Choice, and The Critics' Choice, and The Globe for Best Musical Comedy. So no wonder Faye Dunaway wasn't asking a lot of questions.

SPEAKER_05 33:42

I I think Faye Dunaway was also probably drunk at that point in time.

SPEAKER_07 33:47

It's every possibility. I would actually put Moonlight at number four. Number three, Arrival with Amy Adams as a linguist tasked with finding a way to communicate with the aliens that just landed on Earth, for humanity freaks out about it in a way they can't take back.

SPEAKER_05 34:02

I liked that movie like quite a bit.

SPEAKER_07 34:06

This was the angriest I'd been not to see a best picture nominee on the big screen in a theater until F1.

SPEAKER_04 34:14

Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's all fair.

unknown 34:18

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 34:18

And I was even angrier because I kept saying to my friend I watched all the nominees with, we could go see a rival, and she would say, I don't know if it's gonna get nominated. Let's watch Fences. Unforgivable. Number two, Hell or High Water, in which Chris Pine and Ben Foster are brothers making a last-minute effort to pay off the mortgage on their family ranch by robbing branches of the bank that halt it and laundering the money at a native casino. Jeff Bridges is the aging Texas Ranger out to catch them. It's the least bleak movie from the writer of Sicario. So only half the main cast die.

SPEAKER_05 34:56

Only half.

SPEAKER_07 34:57

I mean, there you go. It's really good and really watchable, though.

SPEAKER_05 35:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_07 35:02

Like Wind River is really good, but oh, I would struggle to get through it a second time. And at number one, Hidden Figures. The story of three black women who forged themselves a place in the space race and became instrumental in getting the first US astronauts into space. This one was the whole package. Entertaining and informational and inspirational. And okay, yeah, that gets a little white savory. Savory, but you know, you can't desegregate NASA just NASA just through pluck. Eventually, Kevin Costner has to take a crowbar to the whites-only bathroom signs.

SPEAKER_05 35:39

Obviously. Seems like a Kevin Costner thing to do.

SPEAKER_07 35:42

And they were terrified to imply that John Glenn was in any way problematic. So Glenn Powell plays him as a living saint who just doesn't see race.

SPEAKER_02 35:51

Ah, Glenn. The only man in Hollywood. Glenn Powell. Look at you go.

SPEAKER_04 35:56

Even back in 2016. Wow. Wow. Glenn Powell. For 10 years, he's been the only man in Hollywood.

SPEAKER_07 36:05

He was doing his thing. Now the audiences were torn. We have another international domestic box office split. And it doesn't necessarily go the way you'd expect because one of these movies has America in the title. And that's not the one Claire's about to tell us about our domestic champion. But in any event, all roads lead to Disney franchises, so kick us off, Claire.

SPEAKER_05 36:28

Alright. Well, her name's Jen Urso, and she's the daughter of Galen Urso. He built the Death Star. And now Jen and Andor, that's Cassie and Andor. They're on a mission. They have to put the Death Star plans into the rebellion hands. At the Star Wars, Star Wars Cantina. This is a direct prelude to a new hope. At the Star Wars, Star Wars Cantina. Fade Out, Fade Out, Fade Out.

SPEAKER_07 36:58

Excellent.

SPEAKER_03 36:58

Rogue One! A Star Wars story.

SPEAKER_04 37:04

Here's the thing you guys both need to know about both of our box office champs. They are both legacy movies. They're part of like ongoing series of things. Oh yeah. And as we went into watching both of these movies, I was like, oh, this is the movie where this thing happens. And I was and will be continually wrong in this movie. I was for sure. For sure. This was the movie that took place on the casino planet. And just to spoiler alert, I also thought the previous movie we watched watched was a casino planet movie. And I have um now learned that the casino planet movie is the last Jedi.

SPEAKER_07 37:50

This is correct. Was gonna see if I could tease up the casino planet doesn't actually come up until the second season of Mandalorian, but no, you got there.

SPEAKER_04 38:01

I did watch Andor though. I watched all of Andor before I re-watched this movie, which was a bad choice. It was a bad choice.

SPEAKER_05 38:10

It's so funny because I watched Rogue One like a long time ago, and then obviously like Andor has come out, so I also watched it kind of in that way because I'd forgotten a lot of Rogue One.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Like, I love Rogue One, I love the blind monk and his. Yes.

SPEAKER_07 38:29

Well, how can you not?

SPEAKER_04 38:31

I love the diversity in this movie. Like, okay, yeah, yes, our two leads are white, hot people.

SPEAKER_07 38:39

Diego Luna is Hispanic.

SPEAKER_04 38:41

Yeah, but he's so hot.

SPEAKER_07 38:45

I'm not questioning that he's hot.

SPEAKER_04 38:49

And also, I feel like Hollywood has complicated relationships to Hispanic people. I feel like they cannot decide if they are white or not. Hollywood gonna Hollywood. Hollywood's gonna Hollywood. But this I I feel like this movie was the first one where the Star Wars like world was like, nah. Nah. We're gonna hit so many all the people, all the people are in this movie. Don't worry.

SPEAKER_05 39:16

Forrest Whitaker is in this movie.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Forrest Whitaker is in this movie. We're not gonna explain anything.

SPEAKER_05 39:23

No.

SPEAKER_04 39:23

He's gonna have something.

SPEAKER_05 39:25

Don't worry what that something is. Nope. And only until you watch Andor, first andor later, and or both, do you understand kind of what he's huffing on that thing.

SPEAKER_07 39:37

I think he may have also been in the Rebels animated series. I don't know. I haven't watched the cartoons. Neither of I haven't watched one of the Star Wars animated series since the Ewok and Droids and Adventure Hour.

SPEAKER_05 39:53

Well, because that's great.

SPEAKER_07 39:54

I of course watched through my time portal that lets me see 80s pop culture because I'm incredibly youthful. But I think I watched one episode of The Bad Batch and was like, nah. And at one point during quarantine, I decided to start watching the Clone Wars and found the list of what actual order to watch the episodes in. And then I thought to myself, what if I watched every best picture winner in history would ever won the box office champion that year? And then I had a new personality and never got back to Clone Wars.

SPEAKER_04 40:23

No, you are correct. You should not have to watch cartoon to be able to understand a movie. No. Cartoon Star Wars! I do love cartoons. The two do not you don't have to watch a ser okay, and Marvel, Marvel, please hear me. I should not have to watch your series to watch your movies.

SPEAKER_01 40:44

But they're gonna make it happen.

SPEAKER_07 40:46

I mean, there was a time when they would actually punish you for watching the series and expecting it to pay off in the movie. Now, where was I? Thought.

SPEAKER_04 40:55

Series is uh watching notes. We shouldn't have to watch. No, of course we're white people.

SPEAKER_07 41:02

The opposite of white people, Sagarera. I actually like that he's huffing on something in a tube. I don't know what it is. I've never bothered to learn. I'm not far enough into Andor yet. I haven't started season two. See if that answer has changed in two weeks. But what I like about him huffing on something in a tube, well also like half uh cybernetic parts at this point, is that it kind of it makes a good commentary on the cost of the rebellion to this point that Saga is basically three-fourths to a Darth Vader.

SPEAKER_05 41:35

Oh yeah. Okay, yes. Yeah. He really is.

SPEAKER_07 41:39

Maybe I'm only seeing this because I have already watched like five times more than that, Stellan Skarsgard's rant about I've forced to use the weapons of my enemy to oppose them speech, and that shone that light.

SPEAKER_06 41:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 41:55

And yeah, obviously it's hard not to recontextualize this movie in the wake of Andor and uh I burned my life to make a sunrise I know I'll never see sheds a lot of light on things.

SPEAKER_04 42:06

I appreciate you bringing that up because I I did feel like in this movie, trying to like put my brain back into 2016, I did not like the shot of Darth Vader being in his like weird soup. Oh yeah. Like I I didn't like that we saw Darth Vader in his weird soup and being like lifted out of that and then being put in his Darth Vader costume. I did not love that they were like, no, no, we're gonna throw you back to the 1970s where you just thought he was like a robot man, and then it turns out that he was Luke's father, and and then you saw him without his helmet off, and he was just a man, just a white man with his skin peeling off. That being said, now that you can textualize that for me, I do appreciate like the comparisons between Saul and Darth Vader, and maybe I was being unkind to the movie.

SPEAKER_07 43:00

You still don't necessarily need to see him lifted out of soup. How much time did he have to spend in soup by that point?

SPEAKER_04 43:07

Apparently a lot. No, he lives in black armor, he needs no soup. He is like a peeley man.

SPEAKER_05 43:14

Right. He just needs his Darth Vader outfit.

SPEAKER_07 43:16

It's been 20 years, my guy. Uh I don't think that the healing bath is doing any more work than it did within the first six months.

SPEAKER_05 43:25

No. You gotta you gotta just live in your Darth Vader outfit and now try and hunt down your daughter.

SPEAKER_07 43:33

Maybe That's where we're at. Every now and then the suit needs to be cleaned out. Needs needs a deep clean power wash, and the soup is the place he can be while that happens.

SPEAKER_05 43:46

I mean, that's probably correct. We don't know how long he was in the suit prior to this moment we see him in this movie.

SPEAKER_07 43:55

That's true. Now, to cycle all the way back, a thing I like about The opening shot of this movie is that it's an inverse of the usual opening thing we get, which is title card pan down to planet. And this time we pan up, and the rings of this planet from underneath don't not look like the underside of a text scroll.

SPEAKER_05 44:17

Mm-hmm. Yep.

SPEAKER_07 44:19

But it's a neat little visual cue of we're coming at this from a different angle.

SPEAKER_05 44:24

It is a great also like side quest movie. Because we're no we're we're stepping away from the sort of Skywalker saga as as it is now known. But we're stepping away from that and we're going tangentially with it. So I do like the those little moments where they're like, here's it's adjacent. We're doing this instead.

SPEAKER_07 44:46

That was the plan at the time is episodic saga movies every two years, and in between these Star Wars stories filling in gaps from elsewhere in the chronology.

SPEAKER_04 45:00

Now that we say this, this movie does fit into the chronology. Because Admiral as Admiral Akbar, that's so hard to say. As he says in the movies, many Boffins died trying to get these plans.

SPEAKER_07 45:16

Okay, first of all uh So we we gotta talk about the Boffins, Dan. Why are you making me be this person, Aaron? Why are you making me do this? First of all, Mon Moffma says many Bothins died. And second of all, that was the second Death Star. The Bothins were barely involved this time.

SPEAKER_00 45:36

What are Boffins? What are Boffins?

SPEAKER_07 45:43

A double of one and not quite as many as allins.

SPEAKER_04 45:50

Also, uh, does Mon Moffa hate her life because she has to do that terrible wig anytime we approach this point in the timeline? She's a beautiful woman, but her face is so bad.

SPEAKER_05 46:03

Yes, no, this haircut, I was like, why did you choose this? And you can see it in watching Andor, you can see her hair get worse. And you know they're like, oh no, the bad hair's coming. We're just kidding. Like, she starts, she starts, and you're like, okay, okay. And then you just see it. There's a progression of her hair just being like, nope. And you're like, why did you choose this? You're in space. She's also very wealthy. She's a very wealthy space lady. She can have better hair.

SPEAKER_01 46:39

Nope. They chose that. That's what they went with.

SPEAKER_07 46:43

I did feel Genevieve O'Reilly, I believe that's the actress, was ridiculously well cast because at first it wasn't entirely positive that they hadn't just de-aged the original Mon Mothma somehow. But then I saw a ghoulish CG Peter Cushing and was like, no, no, she's way too realistic. That must just be a new actress who just really captures the vibe well.

SPEAKER_05 47:08

And it was. And the hair. And the hair.

SPEAKER_07 47:12

Still didn't think she would eventually make me really care about her shitty marriage, but.

SPEAKER_05 47:16

But see, here's the thing is we start, we started with this one. So Andor has to get to this hair. This is where the hair starts.

SPEAKER_07 47:27

It's to work their way to this hair. Like, hell, they had to spend the prequel trilogy getting you and McGregor shaggier and shaggier.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

Yep. They knew where they were going, and they're like, oh man, we made them too good looking to start. Now we gotta backtrack on this.

SPEAKER_04 47:42

It's actually wild how much Andor feeds into this movie. Oh yeah. And I I will say I do remember seeing this in theaters. I also thought it was a casino movie. I also thought the first one of the prequels was a casino movie, so I'm I'm I'm bad at this. But I did remember liking Rogue One. And the girl who plays Jen Ursa is really good. She's great. She is charming. Is she maybe more charming than Daisy with Ridley? Maybe she's just in last. She's just in last.

SPEAKER_07 48:17

You don't get as much time to get tired of Jin Urso as you maybe do with Ray. Couldn't be my life. Yeah. But it was almost a shame that no one in this movie was meant to last beyond this movie.

SPEAKER_06 48:31

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 48:32

I could have gone with Jin Urso showing up in the young Han Solo movie.

SPEAKER_06 48:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 48:38

And of course, also Jimmy Smith is here as a trilogy bridge because the prequel redemption era has begun.

SPEAKER_05 48:45

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 48:46

Yep. But my number one casting note on everyone in this movie, even above how great Donnie Ann and the other one are, is literally everything is improved by the addition of Ellen Tudic.

SPEAKER_05 48:59

Yes, I was gonna say it was Alan Tudic, because I love him.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

So good. So good. And like there's a reason that in the TV show they're like, oh no, let's let's make that robot like a big character. Mm-hmm. Because he's so charming in the way that 3 CPO is. It's Alan Tudek. Like he could be the voice of a rooster.

SPEAKER_00 49:25

And the rooster is charming.

SPEAKER_05 49:29

It's so great. He's so he's got this beautiful charm about him. I love the moment where they're fighting, they cause the street fight, and Jin's she's doing her blaster thing. They're shooting stormtroopers left, right, and center. And then she turns around and she shoots the robot or the droid, and it looks like like Kay, and he drops down, and then Kay steps out. He's like, Did you know that wasn't me?

SPEAKER_04 49:57

And she's like, Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 50:02

So good. So good.

SPEAKER_04 50:04

Sure. You're a robot.

SPEAKER_05 50:05

We don't care. Sure did, buddy. I knew that that one that looked exactly like you and came out of nowhere was not you.

SPEAKER_07 50:14

Yeah, definitely knew that was a different one.

SPEAKER_05 50:17

Different, different guy. Or you're being nice to me. Cassian said I had to. Perfect.

SPEAKER_04 50:25

He's just like so freaking charming.

SPEAKER_05 50:29

Yes. Yes. And like honestly, a better robot than 3 CPO, I think. And and see 3PO is in this very briefly. Very briefly. Very briefly. Him and R2D2, they're there.

SPEAKER_07 50:43

Wait, that doesn't entirely make sense. The entire fleet's lifting off to go help. Why ain't you on the ship yet?

SPEAKER_05 50:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 50:48

It's not the worst fan service cameo. That, of course, is Dr. Evisan and the Walrus Man, who has a name that I refuse to learn. Because they have to be in a bar on Tatooine in a week. Why are they here? Who knows? Guess they were on their way to the spaceport when Jin walked into them.

SPEAKER_04 51:07

Yeah. Yeah. Also, the use of Admiral Akbar. Fantastic. Yes. And other fish people. Mm-hmm. They know what the people want, and they want fish people to be like, oh no! We're gonna figure it out.

SPEAKER_05 51:26

Fish. Shoot the shields.

SPEAKER_07 51:28

The fish people get shit done.

SPEAKER_05 51:31

They do. They really do.

SPEAKER_07 51:33

The Star Destroyer's disabled. I think I know how to get the shields down.

SPEAKER_04 51:38

Also, appreciation for this movie. They make the flaw in the Death Star slightly less dumb.

SPEAKER_05 51:43

They at least explain why it's there. Like, that's this movie. This movie is the explanation of how they know that there is a flaw.

SPEAKER_07 51:53

Which kicked off an unfortunate trend. Like, I didn't necessarily need every non-sequential Star Wars project to be filling in an explanation because here's why shooting that one exhaust port blows up the whole thing. Begat. Here's why they're bragging about doing the castle run in 12 parsecs. But that is a that is a measurement of distance, not speed.

SPEAKER_05 52:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 52:19

Yep. Science. But you know Solo is ridiculously filled with answers to questions you never asked, and now that you have the answer, also don't care. Ah, yes. We don't have to go into that. So I just have a lot of just random that was neat notes. My other overarching problem with what this says about the industry and about Star Wars is I noted a problem with Hollywood in general, Disney in specific, and Disney Star Wars in extra specific is that they created a ghoulish CG replica of Peter Cushing when they could have just called up Charles Dance. Tell me if Charles Dance was playing Grandma of Tarkin. You wouldn't have figured out that was the bit, or at the very least, not overly cared.

SPEAKER_05 53:10

Yeah, you don't really care about Tarkin. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. He's the bad guy. You don't care about him. He's the most bad guy.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

You thought there were different bad guys. You thought Dirth Vader was the bad guy? No. No. Tarkin's the more bad guy.

SPEAKER_07 53:24

Yeah. Yep. No, that we needed a CG replica, Peter Cushing, to sell Director Krenik gets his baby taken away from him and handed to a more career man in the in the Empire. That could have been anyone saying, No, you're getting fired, so that he goes to Darth Vader and makes the bold pitch of saying, So you'll talk to the Emperor about leaving me in charge? Bold play. Let's see how it works out for him, Cotton. But, you know, then, and I'm I'm sorry to be back to Solo so fast. Solo underperformed, Lucasfilm learned the wrong lessons and decided recasting Han Solo was the problem. And now we get CG replica Mark Hammels on the book of Boba Fett when half the internet was calling out of just cast Sebastian Stan.

SPEAKER_05 54:20

Yeah. But they also we get CGI Leia at the very end. Mm-hmm. But done well. And quick.

SPEAKER_07 54:30

It wasn't as load-bearing as Digital Replica Peter Cushing.

SPEAKER_05 54:35

We just need her to say hope. And her back, like the back of her head, was actually a legit different person. That's not CGI. That's a whole actual real lady. It's fine.

SPEAKER_04 54:45

They're like, okay, we're resetting it. It's fine.

SPEAKER_05 54:48

Yeah. So that's a real lady, and then she just turns around and they used a recording of Carrie Fisher's voice saying the word hope, and they CGI's Carrie Fisher's face onto this other lady question mark. I mean they did CGI her face. I just don't know if it was onto the lady or if it was like all make-believe.

SPEAKER_07 55:06

Could have been either, really. It was quick enough, I didn't have a lot of time to dissect it. No. Anyway, I just feel that a time when Hollywood was two films deep on Chris Pine as Captain Kirk and about to embrace Stefan from the Vampire Diaries as Captain Kirk. I know. Maybe we could live with a recast Luke Han and Leia if they want to do movies set in Mandalorian times.

SPEAKER_05 55:30

Maybe. But we will maybe find out when the new Mandalorian and Grogu movie drops in like a week. Right? But maybe they'll eat chicken nuggets, because that's what the industry tells us they will. I really hope they do. And I'm here for this because I love the Mandalorian, and I think Grogu, despite what Olav thinks, is just the cutest little thing in the entire world, and I love him.

SPEAKER_07 55:54

Olaf is wrong about many things. Olaf gets up in the morning and finds five film opinions to be wrong about.

SPEAKER_04 56:02

The cute thing with the big eyes, and I don't care.

SPEAKER_05 56:06

He's all stinking cute. Anyway, we've gone off topic, but also it's Star Wars, so really. Is there any topic? We're gonna Star Wars.

SPEAKER_04 56:15

Guess what, guys? The next time you watch Star Wars, I think I'll finally get to watch my casino movie.

SPEAKER_07 56:22

It's possible.

SPEAKER_04 56:23

I think you're right. Yeah. Some of you movies from like casino movie now. Like, I literally think every single movie is the casino movie, so it's coming. It's coming for you. One day, one day there will be a casino movie.

SPEAKER_07 56:37

I mean, we're running out of other options, it can be.

SPEAKER_04 56:40

Unless I imagined it. I didn't. I looked it up. I know it's coming. I use the internet. Like an adult, I've looked a thing up.

SPEAKER_05 56:53

I don't have much more on this movie. It's Star Wars. It's a great tie-in from like in 2016 as well, because we don't have like we don't have the series of Andor yet. We're not in like the series versus the movies yet. Like we're we're still fresh on all of it.

SPEAKER_04 57:12

And I will say the moment where Cassian and Jin are on the beach. And they have like accepted that they have saved the galaxy. And they're on this plan that is going to die. And they have their like thoroughly platonic hug. That is a really good scene.

SPEAKER_03 57:30

It is.

SPEAKER_07 57:31

I do have a note that people make way too much of the hug, like, oh, it should have been a love story. Like, it's not a love story. It's two people at the end of a hard mission who know they are moments from death reaching out to just feel something, to just be held in these last moments.

SPEAKER_04 57:49

Yeah. They just want a human, and it's so beautiful.

SPEAKER_05 57:53

Also, like, there is no love story because number one, she's a little baby child. Like, I know she's an adult, but she's still a little baby child. And neither one of them are likable characters. Like Cassian, Andor? Andor is not a nice dude.

SPEAKER_04 58:06

No, Cassian sucks.

SPEAKER_05 58:08

Yeah, he's not a good person.

SPEAKER_07 58:11

The first thing we see him do is kill one of his own informants because he's too injured to escape the stormtroopers. Because being in a rebellion without a Jedi is actually really hard to do.

SPEAKER_04 58:22

Yes. But don't worry, the Jedi's keep disappearing and then coming back. Don't worry, they'll be back. Over and over.

SPEAKER_05 58:30

Luke's had an out on a mountain sometime. Not yet, but he's had an out on a mountain. He'll be back.

SPEAKER_07 58:35

This is why I said that was the stakes of Force Awakens is finding Luke Skywalker. Because fighting the Empire with no Jedi, 20 years in the trenches to mildly inconvenience Palpatine. Got a Jedi, whole thing's done in four years. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And he wasn't even trained yet. They've got like a baby uncracked egg Jedi. Yep. Yep. Takes him three years to figure that part out. One year later, second Death Star blows up, Ember is dead. Everything works out forever. Unless you watch the sequel trilogy or the Mandalorian and say, oh no, everything was not working out forever.

SPEAKER_05 59:10

Oh no, it wasn't. But yeah, no, there's no love story because Cassian sucks as a person. He's not gonna love Jin.

SPEAKER_04 59:19

No. And Jin Jin is not gonna love him. What?

SPEAKER_03 59:23

No! No, that's stupid. Jin loves her dad.

SPEAKER_04 59:28

As you should, because your dad is Mads Mickelson. Right?

SPEAKER_07 59:32

Cassian was gonna snipe her father like a day ago, and not for any real purpose. The Death Star bin built rebellion, killing off Galen's not accomplishing anything at this point.

SPEAKER_05 59:43

Yeah. No, and then he kind of gets mad at her for calling him out on almost killing her dad.

SPEAKER_07 59:48

It's like, but I didn't. Okay. Well, so You were still going to. Let me take this metal that's just the right size to put on a Wookiee. I'm sure we have no other use for it.

SPEAKER_04 59:59

Okay, so obviously the show that comes before this is Andor, in part because the story is more interesting. And Diego Luna is very charming. But if we're looking at the characters, who is the most interesting character who should have a prequel?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:18

I have so many questions I want to know about Blind Forest Monk and his friend with the giant gun.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:25

Yes. Right? Yes. Where did you come from? Or who are you? Even the pilot.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

The pilot who looks just like the guy from the 100? Bodie! Yeah, with like his goggles, he looks just like the guy from the 100. Why? Why did he flip?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:43

Yeah, what was his moment?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:45

Yeah. Why does he keep going? Because everyone shouts at him so much.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:50

I know. He gets his brain eaten by an octopus monster set upon him by Forrest Whitaker.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:00

Because Forrest Whitaker can't just trust an Imperial pilot, has valuable intel because he's suspicious of everyone and sees traps everywhere, because that's the only reason he's made it 20 years, or at least as much of him that has made it 20 years has. Other people in the rebellion sell him out sometimes. That's true, they do.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:21

And like within the movie, I will say within the movie, they're all like equally interesting. I'm just so curious why Disney was like, yeah. Cassie and Andor, Diego Luna, that's the one we're doing. Because they could do literally anyone other than Jin.

SPEAKER_07 1:01:39

I guess because he was literally the only one who was in the rebellion at the start of this movie, and they did want to do the Andor as exploration of the way fascism operates and the cost of fighting it versus the cost of not fighting it.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:59

And like, don't get me wrong, I loved Andor at the TV show. They did most things very right. Their time frame.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:06

Mm-hmm. Pretty good. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I like I really I really enjoyed Andor.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:12

Yeah, it was unexpected that one of the best Star Wars things would be a prequel series about the second lead of Rogue One. And that they'd make us care about Mon Mothma as a person.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:24

But we did though. Her life is so complex. She has such better hair at the beginning as well. Such better hair.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:32

She's just been someone in a pixie cut with flowing robes who got a lot of bothins wiped out and turns out as a trap.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:42

But she has a stepdaughter and a husband who she loves medium. Kind of.

SPEAKER_07 1:02:49

Sometimes there likes him a medium amount.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:53

Yeah. I mean, they got married in their ritual when they were both like 14. So it's fine.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:01

This movie has gained so much by cultural context.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:05

Yes. Yeah, watching it now. And like now, because now you could also do the like on Disney Plus, you can do the Star Wars full watch from like the beginning. Beginning. So you if you choose to do that, you can actually really get the story. Like you really can follow everything chronologically. Not like what we had to do in 2016 where we didn't even know a TV show was happening. We just went, hey, I like this. This movie's kind of fun. I wish I knew more about Diego Luna's character. Tell me more about that. But not now. Ten years from now. Tell me then.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:47

That's why they say that they had to cut Andor short at two seasons. Like, it's not that we didn't feel there was more to tell. It's just there's only so long Diego Luna is still gonna look like this.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:57

You know what? That was the correct thing to do.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:59

It was eventually he's not gonna be able to look the same age as a character you played ten years ago, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:04:05

Also, he eventually will have to get to the point that Rogue One starts. Like, there there's a finite amount of time. You have an end point. You already did that.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:17

Yeah, well, tell that to Mesh.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:20

Yeah, a lot of TV is bad at that. So great work, Andor. They're like, you know, we could have milked this forever. And yet, no, we will milk something else.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:32

Grogu and the Mandalorian.

SPEAKER_07 1:04:34

Listen soon for Muncie Parker Monroe's spin-off podcast, which is every Christmas episode of MASH and tries to figure out which ones are happening at the same time. Don't make a liar out of me, Muncie.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:45

Okay, sidebar. My auntie, Jane, really loves MASH. And so when I'm whenever I'm in Ontario, I watch a lot of MASH. So now I'm really into it. And I'm here for MASH. So there.

SPEAKER_07 1:05:00

Maybe if we do enough mini episodes, we'll do a Mantalorian and Groku follow-up. But in the meantime, on the flip side, the international in audience decided they were all about Marvel this year, which is not the only year that's gonna happen. So, Claire, what's uh Steve Rogers up to?

SPEAKER_05 1:05:18

Well, he's causing a little bit of a civil war. So Bucky's back, and he's evil now because his sleeper agency has been turned on, and he is running amok, and the Avengers are blowing up places, but only half of them. And then an HR lady gets really, really mad at Iron Man because the Avengers killed her son. And now Tony Stark is like, yo, we gotta cool it. Can't be just blowing up stuff anymore. Let's take a step back, let's like really think about it. And Steve's like, yo, no, no, hard no, gotta go save Bucky, and I don't care who. Gets blown up in the process, and then also Bucky killed the Iron Man's parents.

SPEAKER_03 1:06:06

Civil War, Captain America.

SPEAKER_07 1:06:10

Just I feel this all could have been solved if Tony Stark and Bucky had just sat down and learned that their mothers had the same first name.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:25

Just like Batman and Superman. So I feel like when I saw this movie in 2016, and I feel like a lot of people have the same feeling, it was like kind of revolutionary. Because I feel like in your brain, you're like, oh no, no, like Steve Rogers is gonna is gonna be like, yeah, no, we should follow America. America knows what's right. My literal name is Captain America. But no, Steve Rogers is like, oh shit, no, we can just follow a man. We have to ask you to my best friend, Bucky! Bucky! Hey guys. Uh I was in World War II. Maybe we just don't say government, be good. Maybe we have to be like, hey government, question mark?

SPEAKER_07 1:07:24

And then he joined SHIELD and found out that it'd been ridiculously taken over by Hydra, as had the World Security Council. So maybe you're done just blindly following government orders.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:36

Yeah. But like at the time I remember really, really being like, oh shit, this is not the sides. I thought the Captain America and Iron Man would fall on. Because I thought Iron Man was like the iconoclast. Like he's the man who puts industry first. He's gonna like. And I mean, obviously I'm an adult now. I understand why they're on the sides they're on. Yeah. But it was really interesting.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:00

I also thought that was how it was gonna go when the original comic this is inspired by was coming out. Yes, I definitely read that comic, it came out. Look at me! I'm the Gina now!

SPEAKER_00 1:08:12

Yeah, you are, Dan. Yeah!

SPEAKER_07 1:08:14

Yeah, I thought the government's gonna crack down on superheroes, so Captain America's gonna say, well, that's the law. And Iron Man, who had spent like the last four issues of Amazing Spider-Man trying to convince sedent subcommittees that this was a bad idea, including quoting the number of times that superheroes had saved the United States of America from being conquered, blown up, or hurled into space. I believe it was forty-seven.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:42

That's a solid amount.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:43

Then a grieving mother yelled at him and he switched sides. And as you do. Which is one of the few things from the book that they kept, only she doesn't hang around as long because Alfred Woodard had other things to do. And Captain America's role is sometimes to say, wait, maybe America good, but government not. Which is why he would like quit being Captain America during the Nixon and Reagan administrations.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:14

I mean, those were the right choices, Captain America. I also feel like this movie just really wanted to show how like hot Chris Evans was. Like, I don't think it had other shots of him other than let's make him be real hot and hold things. Like a helicopter.

SPEAKER_07 1:09:37

When he catches the helicopter and tries to flex it right back onto the helipad, they knew. They know what they're doing.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:44

Oh god, he's so hot in this movie. He's so hot. I love Chris Evans. He's not always hot in the way other people think he's hot. Yeah. Like his face and nose do things. But this movie's like, no, no, don't worry.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:01

Don't worry. He's hot. He is the face of justice. And you're like, he is. I'm 100% on Captain America's side. Wait, what's happening? Take off your shirt.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:11

The only time, the only time you're not on his side is when Spider-Man pops up and he's just like, hey, Mr. Stark, I'm here. Hi, I'm here too. Are we having a fight? Oh, this is really cool. Hey guys! I'm doing a spider thing. Oh, Mr. Stark, I'm so sorry. I messed up. I'm hurt. The movie knows. The movie knows what it did. Because they know you cannot be on Iron Man's side unless he has a Spider-Man. A little boy Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:42

A little tiny baby boy Spider-Man?

SPEAKER_04 1:10:44

Because Captain America's side has Wanda. Obviously, you're on Wanda's side. Like Wanda has fucked up, but you're still like, well, her powers are complicated.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:56

Mm-hmm. And she's also young. Like Wanda's also young. She's still figuring it all out. Like. So you're on Wanda's side.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:04

Maybe she wouldn't have actually blown up a chunk of that building if I don't know. Vision has shown his ass up to the mission. Right? Vision.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:13

Your literal name is Vision. Come on, buddy.

SPEAKER_07 1:11:15

Cold open is the only time we ever see this Avengers team introduced at the end of Age of Ultron in a mission together, and Vision and War Machine sit it out. Right?

SPEAKER_04 1:11:29

Yep. So you're on Wanda's side because her life is complicated. Her brother died. Like the last time we saw Wanda in, her brother died. Yeah. She's doing the best that girl can do. Yep. Um Hawkeye, yeah, you're on his side. He wants to retire. He does. All he wants to do is.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:50

And live on his ranch with his wife and his kids. That's all he wants.

SPEAKER_04 1:11:54

Who else is on that side? Uh, Captain America, obviously, we've discussed that.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:58

Yeah, he's hot. We're here for that. Scott Lang.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:00

Falcon. Scott Lang's just fun.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:03

Scott Lane's just fun. Falcon, Falcon makes sense. Yeah, cuz also you need a flying one. You need at least like one flying one on like uh because Iron Man, I know Iron Man can fly, and then he's also got um uh um oh my gosh. Roadie. Roadie. Roadie. So the two of them can. Iron Earth? That's not a that's not a name.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:25

It could be. Give them five minutes.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:28

Yep. So you need a flying one on Captain America's side. So Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you get Sam.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:36

And Sam's arc makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:39

I like his line, the thing it is in this movie of are we sure about this? Because the people who shoot at you usually end up shooting at me.

SPEAKER_04 1:12:46

Mm-hmm. And then Iron Man's side has Iron Man. It has Roddy. No I'm sorry, no one cares about Roddy. I know he's in all the movies, no one cares.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:55

He's Don Cheatle. He's just gonna Don Cheetle. It's gonna be great.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:00

It has Scarlett Johansson in the worst Scarlet Johansson appearance. Oh, she's terrible in this movie. It has Vision, which is fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:10

Vision's just gonna vision.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:12

And Black Panther, who is new?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:14

And Black Panther doesn't kill it.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:17

He does. Like you can understand right away how they thought how maybe they hoped Chichala was gonna anchor the post-endgame Marvel universe.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:28

Also, Black Panther is not, I don't think he's like he's not actually on Iron Man's side. Like he doesn't actually care about the like Captain America Iron Man feud. He just wants to avenge his father. Like, let's be real. That's all he's here for.

SPEAKER_07 1:13:43

And that's not necessarily something we agree with, especially since we know Bucky didn't actually do that. Yeah. That was Zemo.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:50

Yeah. That's the other thing about these movies and about Bucky being on Captain America's side, is Bucky's brain controlled.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:13:59

He's a sleeper agent. It's from the fur The Winter Soldier. Like from the Winter Soldier.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:07

Nope. Yeah. And to drive that home, we watch the programming take effect.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:13

Yes. It's the opening scene. We're in 1991.

unknown 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:18

Take him out of the box, they torture him with electrics a little, and then they read off a list of Russian words that makes him compliant.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:25

Yeah. So the bias of this movie is evident. It is a Captain America movie, and Captain America's team is the hero team.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:36

What's sad is I think they do a better job in the movie of selling us that Tony's side might be roughly equivalent than the books ever did. And I say that is sad because the writer of the comic really thought he nailed both sides are equally right. And he hadn't.

SPEAKER_04 1:14:55

Oh yeah. So I talked to Tyler about this before. No, we watched the movie, and then I was like, tell me about the comic books in the movie. And from what he told me, the problem with the comic books is most of the superheroes you like know and get had moved on from the Avengers. And so, like, with the movies, you like really buy into a lot of things. You're like, yeah, I've seen these people for so long. Like, I want to know where they land. Hawkeye and Black Widow being on opposite teams, like, that hits me. I care about that. Mm-hmm. Ultron and Scarlet Witch. I care about that. Whereas from what I understand with the comic books, you're like, hmm? Okay. Some mediocre superheroes are here.

SPEAKER_07 1:15:40

Yeah, I was really sold on a different batch. Also, nothing happened for half the issues.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:47

Hmm. And that's not great. Like, in in a comic book, it it's not great if nothing hap especially a superhero comic book. Like, uh, there are some comics that like nothing happening is not a bad thing, but in a superhero y stuff gotta happen.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:04

See, the the books were a line-wide event, so they needed to get as many characters involved as they could, and they also wanted to kill someone, but not anybody who still had an ongoing. So they killed off uh Lawrence Fishburne's character from Ant-Man and the Wasp. Ah.

SPEAKER_04 1:16:21

Okay. I mean, he's an actor who is prolific, so I assume his character was important.

SPEAKER_07 1:16:28

The flip side of that is that there are too many people involved in this to be really tracking anybody's arc except Peter. Like Spider-Man's arc matters because he's the one who really switches sides. He's initially on Tony's side, realizes Tony's crossed a lot of lines, and Joe's joined Captain America. So let's lead to one moment I'd really truly loved in this whole event is since he'd been Tony's protege for a while in the books, he has his own like Iron Man Spider-Man suit. And as he's preparing to leave, Tony says, Peter, do you really think I would have given you that suit and not included a failsafe? Hits his button or internal button, nothing happens. Peter stares back. Tony, do you really think I would have accepted this suit from you and not looked for one?

SPEAKER_05 1:17:19

That's really good. But also this movie couldn't do that because we're just meeting our tiny little baby Spider-Man.

SPEAKER_07 1:17:27

We're beating Spider-Man for literally the first time. We don't have time for him to have an ethical quandary about what side he's on, eventually switch, eventually be a key member of both teams, and then get his Aunt May shot by an assassin because his identity went public. We don't have that kind of time right now.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:46

But normally do feel like this movie set the right Spider-Man arc.

unknown 1:17:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:17:51

They like did the things, so several movies from now, you can be like, okay, Spider-Man has had arcs and complications, and things are sus. Again, viewers of this podcast know I have my feelings about Spider-Man. But this is a great Spider-Man introduction. And the fact that they embed that in like a very complicated, like multidimensional movie that also introduces Black Panther. I feel like they do a really good job.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:23

They do. They really streamline introducing Spider-Man, getting across his whole deal, and finding a new way around with great power comes great responsibility in his little speech to Tony about why he does what he does.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:37

Yeah. It's also like, I love that he is just a tiny little nerd baby. Like, truly. Like he is, they set him up really well as being not just the new guy, but like the kid. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:52

Love that moment of. He's on the young side.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:02

Yeah. It's really good. It sets it sets up that character really well. Because we also all know Spider-Man. Like, we as an audience in 2016 know Spider-Man. We've seen many a Spider-Man movie. Or fans of the comic books or the TV show, like, we know Spider-Man. And this is setting it up really well for this version.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:25

Yeah. The only qualm I have is that, and this will be a thing for the next two appearances she's in. The whole Aunt May is weirdly hot to be someone's aunt thing really only makes sense if you saw the last two Aunt Mays.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:42

Yeah. Because she's a very normal aunt. She, in fact, if you do the math, is too old to be his aunt.

SPEAKER_07 1:19:50

She's Marissa Tomei is still in her 50s in this movie.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:54

Yeah. Yeah. If you do the math, she is like definitely his mom's older, older sister. She's just hot. She's just hot. She's just hot. She's Marissa Tomei.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:05

Every time they reboot Spider-Man, they shave a decade off Aunt May.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:09

Yep. As they should, because she's like 70 in the first movie.

SPEAKER_07 1:20:14

Well, yeah, that never made sense. You're like, she's his mom's sister.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:19

How old is she?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:22

What is that?

SPEAKER_01 1:20:24

Do you know how families work?

SPEAKER_07 1:20:28

That's how old they thought 45-year-olds looked in the 60s, and we've never recalibrated until Marissa Telme. Except maybe Ultimate Spider-Man, where you could believe that she wasn't that old, she just grayed fast.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:41

There's also, like, let's be real, we've all seen high school pictures of people from the 60s, and they all look 45. Let's never forget that George Costanza is like 34 in Seinfeld. Let's never forget that styling. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:00

But Marissa Tomei can totally be the aunt of a teenager.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:04

She can! Marissa Tomei, you're killing it. We love you, Marissa Tomei. You're normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

You're doing a great job.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:11

You're doing great job.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:12

You can have a 17-year-old nephew. It's fine. It's fine. You are in fact like a little bit too old. Right? Like your sister is your younger sister.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:23

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:25

Yeah. There's a big age gap between you and her.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:28

Or Mary Parker had Peter close to her forties.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:32

Yeah, very late in life. Which is also a possibility. And all of this is fine.

SPEAKER_07 1:21:38

This is not an iteration that's interested in telling us much about Peter's parents because the last iteration was too interested in that, but also didn't. They spent two movies edging us on the idea of Peter's parents' big secret, and no one wanted to go back.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:54

No. No. But New Spider-Man, New Spider-Man is very into being like, could I be a superhero hero and normal dude? And then you risk is like, nah, and he was like, yeah. Yeah, nah. Nah. What if I erased everyone's memory of me being a normal dude? Because I fucked that up.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:16

So rewind.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:19

Well, we have a whole half an episode to talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:23

And Tom Holland is so good. He's so stinking cute. What a cutie patootie.

SPEAKER_07 1:22:31

He has some of the best banter in this airport fight, which is just here because, first of all, you can't call it civil war if Captain America only fights like two Iron Men and calls that a day. And secondly, we know this is fun. We know this is the this is the thing everybody's bought a ticket for. We want to watch Avenger v Avenger for a good eight to twelve minutes, and it's going to be filled with banter, and there's going to be gags and cute moments, and everyone's going to be awesome at using their powers, and it's going to be super satisfying. And then when we get to the next big fight scene, that can be the one that with that hits more emotionally. And it is impressive that they were able to do one of each.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:17

It's also this airport fight scene, it's great because you're also watching Black Widow and her arc within it. Because she's sort of she's not really important in this movie. Like, let's be real. This movie, she's not actually important in anything. Let's be real. No, she's really not.

SPEAKER_07 1:23:34

She's here so that Steve can emote his feelings on things too.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:38

Yeah. But like you see her, because when her and Hawkeye are fighting, and then she's like, we're still friends, right? He's like, depends how hard you hit me. And then, like, so there's we got those things, and then she stuns Black Panther so Steve and Bucky can escape. Like, you see her, and they're like, We're we did it. We did it, everybody. We gave her a story. And you're like, you you didn't, but you tried?

SPEAKER_07 1:24:03

You tried. Immediately after this was the time to give her a solo movie about dealing with the fallout of switching sides at the airport. But, you know, I guess five years later is also a time to do that.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:15

It is. Yeah. You have to wait five years. Yeah. That's how movies work. You just wait five years and then you do that.

unknown 1:24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:22

When everybody remembers what happened five years ago and like 12 Marvel movies later.

unknown 1:24:29

It's fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:30

Yeah. I don't know. This one's not my favorite of them.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:35

I don't know that it's even my favorite Captain America. I think that's still Winter Soldier.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:39

Yeah, this one, like, it's there. It happens. We get the conflict between like the two sides, and but uh No, it's not good.

SPEAKER_04 1:24:48

It just serves its purpose. Yes. It's not Winter Soldier, it's not Age of Ultron. No. It's not Endgame, it's not Infinity War.

SPEAKER_07 1:24:58

I think it has a couple improvements on Age of Ultron. First, off the bat, it is this is the first movie since 2008 in which a cast member of Incredible Hulk returns. So that's a little bit of world reconnection. As General Ross finally comes back. Second, this does what Age of Ultron didn't and explains why if Tony blew up all of his suits for Pepper at the end of Iron Man 3, he has a bunch of suits now.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:27

A good thing to do.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:30

It's a simple explanation, but Robby Robert Downey Jr. just really sells the admission of failure on, and then and then and then. It's like, yeah, I built another suit so we could fight Hydra. And then I just kept doing it because apparently I didn't care about Pepper that much.

SPEAKER_04 1:25:47

I mean, she's barely in any movie. He has made the right choice. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:25:52

Yeah. And I do often say that my least favorite character in any superhero story is the one saying, hey now, don't be a superhero. Get out of my way. Let Iron Man be Iron Man.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:02

Right? Let them superhero.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:04

Also, he has to keep the things away from his heart. Yeah, he has a bad heart. He has to. He literally has a bad heart.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:14

There's the one contribution Iron Man 3 actually makes to lasting lore of this franchise is that because he had all of that removed at the end of Iron Man 3, Steve Rogers breaking his arc reactor at an abandoned Soviet prison somewhere in Siberia is not a lethal thing to do.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:34

That's very true.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:35

Because if you didn't know that, you'd be like, So the scene that takes place where they fight in a cave. I'm waiting for for movies. Was fine.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:48

Yeah. They also had to fight in a cave. This is a superhero movie. There has to be some sort of cave dungeon hideout thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:56

So just like how I was like, oh yeah, in Rogue One, they go to a casino planet. I was like, no, surely in Civil War they fight in a cave. Which was correct. But I have watched so many movies where I'm like, no, the fighting cave in this one. What about this one? The cave fight? No? Where's the cave fight? I don't know. This one. That's the problem with the super movies. They all blend. They all blend.

SPEAKER_07 1:27:23

They can blend on you. Another thing I do find interesting about this one in conversation with Age of Ultron is that people spent a lot of time the previous year ragging on Man of Steel for how much more the Avengers cared about avoiding collateral damage. Like Age of Ultron is filled with all these scenes of protecting civilians. We gotta send the Iron Legion to protect civilians and avoid collateral damage. And in one montage with Thunderbolt Ross, this movie abandons that high ground by saying, No, yeah, people died. People died in all of these climactic Avengers fights. Let's be real. Yeah. Mm-hmm. The Hulk tore through somebody's office building to punch a dragon. Even if people weren't injured by flying glass. That was a horrible thing to witness.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:10

Yeah. I don't know. The movie does the really good transition thing it wants to do. It's an awesome movie. Chris Evans is very, very, very hot. And the movie moves the thing forward.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:24

Just gonna give my top three only partially off the dome, amusing banter lines in the airport fight. Yes. Yes, please. After Red Wing knocks Spider-Man out of the terminal building. You couldn't have done that earlier. I hate you.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:40

Okay, that is so charming. Very good. It is. I really like that. That relationship is very good.

SPEAKER_07 1:28:47

They very much cued us up for a TV series about these two. Between that and can you move your seat up? No. No. No. Silver, I think I'm gonna go with Iant Man inside Tony's suit going, it's me, your conscience. We haven't talked in a while. Or does anyone on our side have any spectacular powers they'd like to divulge?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:14

I love that line. I think it's very, very funny. I also can I just say I love that they both have like the ability to talk to only their side. Yes. They're like, no, no, no, this is not for you.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:29

This is only us.

SPEAKER_07 1:29:31

Which is impressive. I think Tony would be able to hack their earpieces, but and number one just goes to the simplicity, the the not going too big delivery of little guy's big now, he's big now.

SPEAKER_04 1:29:49

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep. Okay. I will say, let's talk about Roddy's injury. Oh yes. It is such a cop-out, right? Like, they take a character we barely care about. They have recast that character throughout the Iron Man movies. And by the end of the movie, he is walking. Like, and like I I know that um Endgame Inju War is coming, but it is such a cop-out, being like, no, no, we're not gonna kill any of our heroes. Don't worry. None of our heroes are gonna be like that hurt.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:23

That's ultimately kinda my one of my big complaints about this movie is they wanted to have stakes to all of this, but also not. Like the airport fight should have a consequence, other than half the Avengers now being wanted criminals. So we'll paralyze Roadie. But also his best friend.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:45

Barely.

SPEAKER_07 1:30:46

His best friend is Iron Man. He's gonna be able to figure out a prosthetic.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:50

He'll be fine. They also can't, though, they can't kill off, because they can't have, like in in the movie, they cannot have the good guys also kill the good guys. Yeah. You know, like that's not it, yes, it's like, but they can't do it.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:07

Ask Fast the Furious 8 through 10. It's awkward when someone who killed one of your friends is now also in the friend group.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:16

Yeah, like and that's where we're we're at. And it's weird. It's weird that it doesn't happen because this is a major fight. But they're like, we can't do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:24

I feel like it almost makes it worse that they paralyze Roddy. Like, I feel like what they should have just done was like blow up an airport. Or like which blow up a fair amount of that airport. Or blow up like the White House, the Statue of Liberty, the Eiffel Tower. Like, blow up a landmark so we as a culture lose a thing, but don't lose any people.

SPEAKER_07 1:31:49

Well, that gets us a little too close to how the comic book ended, where the big final fight blows up like a large chunk of Manhattan.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:58

Or actually, you know what? No, that's not the bad part. Blow up the Vegas Eiffel Tower.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:05

You can blow up the Vegas Eiffel Tower.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:08

But does not like affect anyone's real life.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:10

Yeah, nobody actually cares that much about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:32:13

Like, let's let's have a thing.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:16

The bad part was that uh Steve realizes he has to surrender to the government because of all the damage they've done to New York in this fight, because when he's about to take down Iron Man, he gets tackled by the real heroes of 9-11 trademark. Like a cop and a firefighter and a paramedic and a nurse all jump on sput Steve Rogers saying, Get off Tony Stark, the people's heroes. I'm like, oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:47

That is that's wild. That is wild in.

SPEAKER_07 1:32:51

It y'all know the boys. No. If the boys actually thought the seven were the heroes, that's Mark Millar, the writer of the Civil War comic book. It's awkward. Anyway, the other we want to have stakes, but also no, was we've split up the Avengers, but also Steve writes Tony letter saying, hey, sorry about all that, no hard feelings. Here's a phone with my number on it.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:17

Oh my god, it is the most like, don't worry, everything will be okay moment where it's like, we still cool, right?

SPEAKER_07 1:33:26

I know we just had a big friendship-ruining battle in Siberia, but uh we do know that we have to be in a movie together in two years, so you know. So like thumbs up, we cool? My bad, fist bump, hug it out. No? Okay, catch you in two.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:39

It's also, it's so it's really funny because it's called Civil War, and we all know why. We get that. That's pretty clear. But they are also really like, no, there's other bad guys, there's actual bad guys. It's them over there. They're the real, real, real bad guys. Your fight just for funsies and tension. But two movies later you're gonna have to fight those guys over there.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:09

Yeah, we are gonna have to get back to Thanos eventually, so you know, sort it out.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:13

So, like, it's fine.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:15

Though perhaps doing it like this is why it takes two movies to beat him. Who's to say?

SPEAKER_05 1:34:20

Who's to say? But that's also why this movie's kinda for me.

SPEAKER_07 1:34:27

I guess we're to say in both two and three episodes from now. Elsewhere in our top ten, domestically, fully half of the top ten are Disney movies, as the Empire of Joy's Reign of Supremacy was hitting hard at this point, having realized that if their standard franchises weren't bringing in teen boys, just buy franchises that do. So number one was Rogue One. Number two, a father and son helped their memory challenge friends search for a home, but instead find chaos at an aquarium in Finding Dory. Civil War came in number three. Number four, the last successful Louis C.K. project before he had to pivot to MAGA material, The Secret Life of Pets. Number five, Jean Favreau gathers an all-star voice cast for the jungle book. Mowgli is played by a real human being, so I guess we can call this live action.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:18

I didn't see it. Didn't feel like I wanted to.

SPEAKER_07 1:35:22

Wasn't into it. Not even Christopher Walken is a giant proto-rangutang was gonna bring me in. Number six, Ryan Reynolds finally gets to shoot his shot properly as Marvel's Merc with a Mouth, Deadpool. Number seven, a rookie cop and a hustler get caught in a shadow race war that goes all the way to City Hall in Zootopia. Because Disney Feld have been too long since they used an animated fox to give an entire generation a furry awakening.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:48

Okay. I haven't actually seen Zootopia, but the kids are still all about it.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:54

Oh yeah, it's very charming.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:57

Yeah, and I I probably will.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:00

You might want to give it a gander at some point in the next 20 weeks, just saying. I mean, we have a whole second Yeah. Yep. At number eight, two comic book Titans meet on screen for the first time, and it's a rocky start for their relationship in Batman v Superman Dawn of Justice. I said all I had to say in the recovered episode, number 35, Dan v. Keith on Batman v. Superman, but suffice to say, whatever Snyder's hardcore fans might think, eighth place and the other hero versus hero movie was not what the studio was expecting. Also, I had like a reverse, my usual, I'm gonna excite it for a movie in theaters. I was excited to see Batman v. Superman and blase about Civil War, and then the thing that happens when I trick myself into loving a movie in theater happened, where the more I thought about it, the more holes I picked in Batman v Superman. Whereas contrary, the more I thought about Steve and Tony in the conference room arguing about signing the accords, the more I appreciated it. Like, ah no, Civil War was the better one. Dang it. At number nine, a secret government division build a covert task of supervillains in order to stop the plans of the first recruit for the task force, so it's going great. The plan is great in Suicide Squad.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:15

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:16

It helps sour general audiences on DC movies in general, but it won more Oscars than my two favorite best picture nominees combined. And at number 10, some cute cartoon animals join a televised singing contest, and then I assume there are stakes somehow in Sing. It is adorable.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:36

Eurovision. It's Eurovision, but with animals. Not the Eurovision with Will Farrell, like actual Eurovision.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:45

Real life Eurovision.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:46

Yeah. Also Eurovision with Will Farrell. Also is actually a pretty solid movie. I enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:53

Yeah, not good for humans. Good for Erin and Claire and children.

SPEAKER_07 1:37:58

Yes. Yes. And yet Singh was the only one not to make the top ten internationally, which is odd.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:04

Oh, that is weird.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:05

That's very weird. Yeah, Cartoon Animal Singing Pop Song seemed like a layup to travel well.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:11

Yeah, it's Eurovision. That's their whole thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:16

But internationally, Disney goes from half the top ten to the entire top five. With Captain America in first, Rogue One in second, Finding Dory at third, Zootopia at fourth, Jungle Book at fifth, Secret Lights at Pets at sixth, Batman v Superman inching up to seventh. And number eight, the five film saga of Eddie Redmane action Hufflepuff begins in Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them. Yes, they did only make three. Obviously it went great.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:43

I mean, I don't like to admit this. I like the first one. Eddie Redmane is very charming.

SPEAKER_07 1:38:54

First one definitely had moments, and I did love and cling to the line. I wouldn't worry about it. Why not? My experience worrying is choosing to suffer twice. Deadpool was ninth and Suicide Squad 10th.

unknown 1:39:07

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:08

A lot of big movies are happening.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:11

Yeah. Oh yeah, big, big move. Big movie yeah. I never really came up with a pairing, maybe because I was stuck on I don't know. If you know the guy's mom is an addict, maybe if he says he doesn't really drink, don't demand he be split a bottle of wine with you. But that said, I'll have some.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:29

I'll have that I'll have that cheap wine in a diner out of a mug. You know that mug. You know the mug that's on the mug. It is cheap wine. Your grandma has it. Yep. It's red with the bubbly kind of crystal pattern.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:46

I'm not above a bottle of diner wine.

SPEAKER_04 1:39:49

Right. And along those lines, I'm drinking some white malback.

SPEAKER_07 1:39:56

Oh. That's the la la lag pairing right there.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:03

It's a m I I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:08

It's whiten up something that's supposed to have color. Yup. Hilarious. I could swear at one point a liquor store off the highway who was selling a sparkling red. Oh, lambrisco.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:23

Sparkling reds? Yeah. Lambrisco's amazing.

unknown 1:40:26

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:26

Lambrusco's are good. Yeah. But but the white Lambrusco or is it sparkling red? Because those are those are different.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:34

Don't know. It wasn't there the next time I went to that store. I'm not convinced I didn't imagine it. Oh, it's not Lambrisco, though.

SPEAKER_04 1:40:41

That's just just weird, sparkly red wines. Like my white mallbeck. A thing that uh the white man should not have won. And then Oscars.

SPEAKER_07 1:40:54

I'm not gonna ruin my soda stream fizzing up red wine to see if that's close enough. Terms of Academy versus audience. Moonlight's probably the most meaningful. In fact, I would say definitely the most meaningful. But Civil War is the one I might watch again.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:13

Yes. I agree. Moonlight's my top. I've also watched Civil War recently, like almost back to back. Once because when you watch an Avengers movie, you just sort of continue watching Marvel movies. And then we obviously had to watch it for this. And I thought, well, I haven't seen this in a hot week. Let's watch it again. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:43

Yeah. And that's fair. I watched Moonlight, but I had like no business watching it. I didn't like it, but it was good. And then we had to for the audience, we had to like waylay this recording. I was like, yeah, no, I'll watch it again. No, no, I didn't. But I did watch Civil War, so Moonlight better. Civil War. We're watchable.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:12

Apologize if this opinion of our entire endeavor has become very white, but at least we're not saying it deserved to lose to La La Land.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:20

We have that No, it should No, no, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:25

Look, we have watched a lot of movies from like great. I loved watching that. I never want to watch it again.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:33

We yeah, we hit a lot in the first half of some episodes of that sort of a thing. Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:39

Yep.

SPEAKER_07 1:42:40

Next time, how to describe our best picture winner. So I have to quote a tweet that I love that came out shortly after the ceremony. They should fuck, said young Guillermo del Toro in a screaming of Preacher of the Black Lagoon. And so he devoted himself to the cinematic arts so that when he made his movie in which they fucked, it would be a legitimate Oscar contender.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:03

Seems correct.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:05

And also, the best thing that you can do on the internet, the safest, most chill, relaxed thing anybody can do online. Talk about the last Jedi. Might need a second white dude to buffer us on this one.

SPEAKER_03 1:43:26

You're getting the movie. The casino planet movie. The casino is coming. It's coming.

SPEAKER_07 1:43:34

Unless the casino planet movie was Rise of Skywalker the whole time. Oh no. Oh no! Until then, we are writing Therapy Productions.com. Find all of our episodes there and other projects. We are also Oscar v audience on Threads Instagram and Blue Sky. Follow us there. I'm Dana Forth on all those places. Plus Letterboxd, where you can find out how I rank Civil War and Rogue One as box office champions.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:00

I'm Aaron. I'm over at Flemsiplan.com, where you can get to all the things.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:06

And I'm Claire, and you can find me by following Dan or Aaron.

SPEAKER_07 1:44:10

And until next time, see you at the ceremony.