Unravel Your Journey Podcast
Welcome to the Unravel Your Journey podcast! We're your hosts: Kati Overmier and Alycia Buenger. And we bring you thoughtful conversations about "unraveling" your soul-self inside everyday life. We'll take a critical look at the "self-development" industry, and explore simple, powerful practices you can actually incorporate into your days. We'll define by example our framework for unraveling to help you envision your soul desires, embody your experience, and enlighten your next steps. Join us right here every week as we question whole-body wellness and explore our daily experience of unraveling who we are and who we choose to be.
Unravel Your Journey Podcast
ON Creativity, Motherhood + Chronic Illness with Jocelyn Mathewes
Welcome back to UNRAVEL your journey: a podcast where we explore what it means to build life outside the confines of conventional work and motherhood.
In our FIRST episode of Season 2, we're speaking with Jocelyn Mathewes, a mixed-media, interdisciplinary artist + mother of three living with chronic illness in rural Appalachia.
Together we discuss Jocelyn's contribution to the book Entwined: An Anthology of Creativity and Motherhood.
We also explore -
- the challenges of balancing art, motherhood, and chronic illness
- the value in finding joy within sorrow + humor in tragedy
- how Jocelyn built an artist community + curated exhibit from her home in rural Tennessee
ARTIST BIO :: Jocelyn Mathewes is a mixed-media interdisciplinary artist, living with her family in rural Appalachia in East Tennessee, USA. She earned a B.A. in Studio Art and English Literature from Messiah College. Her work has been exhibited in galleries, museums, and community spaces all over the United States. She has participated in residencies with the Artist Residency in Motherhood (ARiM), Makers Circle, and Stay Home Gallery. In 2020, she founded EAT/ART space, an alternative pop-up gallery, where she curates exhibits. She also organizes artist meet-ups in the southern highlands to foster regional growth, collaboration, and innovation.
ARTIST STATEMENT :: "My work documents the psychology and embodied experience of the unrepeatable moment."
Connect with Jocelyn via her website (https://www.jocelynmathewes.com/) and Substack newsletter (https://jocelynmathewes.substack.com/).
SUPPORT ENTWINED :: Jocelyn is part of a crowd-funded project curated by artist-mother Sarah Shotts.
- Entwined is an anthology that weaves together stories of creativity and motherhood by painters, writers, potters, visual artists, musicians, poets, and multi-passionates from around the globe.
- Ember is an art journal companion.
Preorder your copy here (https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/entwined-an-anthology-of-creativity-motherhood#/).
Take a peek inside the book here (https://substack.com/@sarahshotts/p-148368958).
Read the 5-year origin story of the project here (https://sarahshotts.substack.com/p/preorder-entwined-creativity-and?utm_source=substack&utm_campaign=post_embed&utm_medium=web).
Connect with Sarah via her website (https://www.sarahshotts.com/) and Substack newsletter (https://sarahshotts.substack.com/).
SUBSCRIBE to the UNRAVEL your journey podcast on Substack. Available for free (or for $5 per month).
02.53) Hello everyone and welcome back to our next episode after our really long hiatus. Today we are doing an interview with Jocelyn Mathewes. We are inviting her onto our podcast because she is part of a really cool project by Sarah Shots If you remember or if you've listened to anything in our backlist episodes, we did an interview with Sarah Shots and she is coming out with a couple of new books. Entwined and Ember. So Entwined is an anthology which the anthology's purpose is to inspire mothers to create, to reframe what counts as art, and to hold space for rest and ideation within the creative process. This isn't just a book about making art, it's about the whole of motherhood and how that impacts our creative process. Now Jocelyn is one of the amazing contributors to Entwined and we get to talk to her about her project within that as well as the things that she does outside of it. So Jocelyn Mathewes is a mixed media interdisciplinary artist living with her family in rural Appalachia in East Tennessee, USA. She earned a bachelor of arts in studio art and English literature from Messiah College. Her work has been exhibited in galleries, museums, and community spaces all over the United States. She has participated in residencies with the Artist Residency in Motherhood, ARiM RM, is that right?
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:48.47) Just A ARiM
Kati (01:49.986) Sure, A ARiM Makers Circle and Stay Home Gallery. In 2020, she founded Eat Art Space, an alternative pop -up gallery where she curates exhibits. She also organizes artist meetups in the Southern Highlands to foster regional growth, collaboration, and innovation. Her artist statement is, My work documents the psychology embodied experience of the unrepeatable moment." Which I really love that artist statement. That's so amazing. How did you come up with that?
Jocelyn Mathewes (02:30.058) Well, I started out working as a photographer. so whenever you take a photograph, that moment will never happen again. And I think I bring a photographic approach to almost all of my mediums in that sense that I'm trying to capture something that is fleeting in some way, shape or form, whether that be a particular state of mind or a 59.778) I don't know, a place or a person or an issue as it stands. So that's very abstract, which is what you get with a generalized artist statement.
Kati (03:13.26) For sure. Sometimes art is not really definable. Sometimes it just is.
Jocelyn Mathewes (03:19.925) I can agree with that.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (03:22.808) Were you doing photography prior to college or was that something that you experimented with in school?
Jocelyn Mathewes (03:31.074) So yeah, absolutely prior to college. But first, let me just say thank you so much for having me today. I want to make sure that I just give my gratitude to you, Alicia and Kati for having me. But as for photography, I definitely started when I was in middle school. My parents gifted me with a very, very basic film camera. And I had a 24 -hour photo. place around the corner from my house and so I would just buy film from the drugstore and then spend all of my allowance money on getting it developed as quickly or as slowly as my allowance would allow. And that was one of the ways that I started making art when I was young.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (04:23.95) Can we give a little context, Kati? I think we've talked a little bit about this on the podcast and I think even in the emails with you, Jocelyn, but the women that we work with aren't necessarily artists or mothers, but we are women who consciously choose to balance lots of different things in our lives. So I found it kind of interesting to kind of... dig into your website and read some of the work that you do. Your artist statement is really intriguing to me because you seem to embody a variety of identities and roles in your life and in your work. I find it kind of exciting because I have an old, I have a daughter who's, I don't know, almost 11. And she, so she's in middle school and she reminds like what you're saying about yourself in middle school and kind of experimenting with art. as kind of a primary piece of your life at that age, reminds me a lot of what she's experimenting with now at that age. I'm kind of curious about the identities that you've played with, the artist mother piece. Can you talk a little bit about that?
Jocelyn Mathewes (05:43.36) Yeah, sure. I think that... I think what you point out about your daughter is something very interesting and something very human, that there is a need to create or to make. And sometimes that can express itself in a child in the physical making process. And sometimes it comes out in a child and just engagement with the physical world, like running around like crazy or digging or just being super active or singing, you know, like. Children like to experiment with sound. so these are all like, when you think about humans, you think about what do humans do? And art is something that humans do. So that doesn't exclude mothers, obviously, right? So in all of the many things that we can be as humans, and we can be all of those things as mothers as well. So I guess. That belief was passed down to me because I had a mother who was also an artist. who, like I was homeschooled and one of the things that she did while I was homeschooled was bring people into the house and teach them how to draw. So there's just art supplies lying around. Like if I go to people's houses and I don't see like a bucket full of pencils, I get really like concerned. Like where is the paper? I need to draw something. Like how do you write things down? So.
Kati (07:09.303) Hehe.
Jocelyn Mathewes (07:18.272) Growing up that way, it just was a normal thing to do. so, you know, I think about the movie Ratatouille where they say, you know, not everybody can be a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere. That's absolutely my philosophy. Like, everybody can participate in this. Doesn't mean you're gonna become like the next rock star, but it is a totally human thing to do.
Kati (07:49.462) I agree with that. follows just like one of the things that think that distinguishes the human beings from a lot of other animals in this world are the fact that we create. Like we've done it pretty much forever. So it's almost like this innate drive in us to create something. And I think that not everyone identifies themselves as artists though. I, you know, which I kind of, that's kind of sad. I think it's something that it's not valued a lot within society, being an artist and doing art, which is a shame. So trying to like bring the value of it back because so many things about our lives that bring us joy and enrichment and all of these things are art and beauty and things that are. So very different even like our video games, right? Someone had to create that someone had to spend time Like coming up with the concept of okay. Here's what these are gonna look like Here's what the surrounding is gonna look like like I'm a big fan of Skyrim and Skyrim is beautiful It's beautiful like clearly it was an artist that made that game and people are engaging with it, you know, so it's just it's everywhere so I agree like it's something that I Just think as part of being human
Jocelyn Mathewes (09:17.09) absolutely love the Skyrim reference. I love video games. I don't have a lot of time to play them, but yeah. The design of video games can be very, like it can really make or break it. So, big fan of Cuphead.
Kati (09:19.81) Skyrim is my favorite. It's amazing. 30.37) Mm -hmm. Yep. 35.584) Yes.
Jocelyn Mathewes (09:36.363) the artwork in there. Yeah, there's, could go on a whole side tangent for a while. But yeah, I think that sort of to circle it back around to like motherhood and to creative development and. identifying as those things. I think one of the reasons why it's treated as an extra thing is because it falls into the category, quite often, of things that are just not monetizable. That's the way that things tend to go, is that if you can't...
Jocelyn Mathewes (10:10.656) you can't measure it in numbers or give it a really solid structure or there are pieces of it that exist outside of that way of knowing, then it's just really difficult for specifically our North American, very market driven culture to value and understand. I mean, that's one of the reasons why I continue to do community engagement work because it's not. That's like an extension of my practice because one of the things about my practice as a whole is making, choosing to rebel against what the purveying cultural winds do to artists. And even though it involves some self -sacrifice or some like, I'm giving, we have to give something up in order to prioritize it. I have to... devote my time to this as opposed to something else. And that in itself is a practice. devoting time to making the art, devoting time to give space to other artists is like actually pretty countercultural, especially if it's done in a way that's not specifically market driven. Not saying I'm not open to getting paid, but.
Kati (11:36.5) Yeah. 40.308) Yup, and it's still important, so therefore you do it anyway.
Jocelyn Mathewes (11:44.83) Exactly, exactly. mean, like, isn't that why we show up for our kids?
Kati (11:50.124) Heck yeah! Although, I will say, one day, I hope to cash in on that. I'm just saying.
Jocelyn Mathewes (11:55.508) yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, that's that's reciprocity, right? That's the hoped for reciprocity that we all wish for in many relationships. So.
Kati (12:05.494) Yeah. I love that you said rebel against because that's kind of the entire idea of what we are trying to help women with is rebelling against some type of norm that isn't working for them. And one of the things that we talk about all the time is, you know, money and commercialism and consumerism. And I just love that you have made it work. I am a little bit curious how you've made it work. Like how, how are you doing that? How are you prioritizing, you know, this art for art's sake because you love it and it's so necessary and community is so necessary and balancing that also with, well, money is necessary too because, know, we still unfortunately live in a world in which you gotta eat and you have to pay for the things in order to live.
Jocelyn Mathewes (13:00.79) Yeah, I have a job. I have a job and my husband has a job and we both contribute to the household.
Kati (13:05.867) Eh. Eh.
Jocelyn Mathewes (13:09.364) Luckily, my husband's job brings in quite a bit more and so I do rely on those things. And I really appreciate you bringing that to light because I think that it's really important to have that complete part of the picture. Because I don't want to paint this like I'm some kind of crazy superwoman. It's like, no, no, no. There are things I don't do. There are things that I... You know, I do spend money on this and I don't necessarily like, maybe I net zero at the end of the year, but you know, like. That is an economic sacrifice to make. And not everybody can make the same type of economic sacrifice. and those you know, there's so many different ways that that can work itself out. Like you can, some people might be able to afford, you know, a really fancy, expensive hobby. Like, I don't know. Like maybe you have like a metalworking shop in your garage, but not everybody has the space or the specialized equipment for that. So maybe for you it ends up being like drawing or maybe it ends up being something like maybe you don't have a metalworking shop, but you can work with wood and you can carve things by hand. know, like it's about what's available to you. And it's not about aspiring to a different creative medium that is just so outside of your. ecosystem. I know Sarah Shots talks a lot about creative ecosystems and I like to talk about how each person's life like makes certain kinds of art possible. So when you're looking at other people's lives and you're looking at what they're making, it's like you have to understand what the soil of their lives is going to grow. You know, like right now this is what the soil of my life is growing. But
Jocelyn Mathewes (15:01.642) Earlier on in my life, I didn't have as much capacity to devote to, say, you know, being as active in the community or. I know I've had to actually give up commercial photography because it just doesn't fit with my current lifestyle and the needs of my kids. So my practice also changed when I moved from one state to another. Like I didn't really start getting into the medium of cyanotype until I moved further south where there was a lot more sunlight because when you're up north. you only get like one month of the year where there's enough sunlight to like print outdoors and do things like that. So it just it all depends on what. what is happening with you and I don't know, I get really tired of people who are like, do the thing every day and like it's so rigid and your creative process is not allowed to change over time and we idolize these artists like they painted every day for 50 years and I'm like maybe they should have taken a break. They might have made their work better. Who knows?
Kati (16:14.162) right? yep. our brain actually does most of its work you know when it's at rest than when it's actually doing something so
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (16:25.582) Can you talk about some of those changes that have happened in your life and the flow that you've had to take from wherever you started to where you are now? You don't have to dive into all of it, but.
Jocelyn Mathewes (16:39.364) yeah, sure. I mean, I think a quick summary is like, I started off as a graphic designer and made a lot of books and a lot of just kind of, I don't know, tried to delve into illustration and lettering and then... And then I had a photography business for a while and did some like cool photo shoots on the side. But then as my kids, that was like when my kids were really small, I started getting really sick. Maybe like in the middle of when I had these two small little ones and that was part, one of the reasons why I sort of exited that photography business. was a lot of, know, showing up for other people and there's a lot of overhead and managing the equipment and and stuff like that. And so I realized, you know, it's really nice to be making this stuff for other people, but right now, maybe this is a time to shift into like more drawing or delving into some things that are just for me. So I just started playing with all of the mediums that I remembered in college and transitioned into doing that and finding a different way to make money elsewhere that didn't take so much of a toll on my body so that I could support that and also be more available to my kids. So, you You know, there's the move south, which made this medium open up to me. And then, and then just I've explored other things since then, as they were available to me, I just I decided that I wasn't, I was going to stop trying to pretend like I wasn't making cool things out of what is in front of me. Because if don't got time. I don't got time to like make it more complicated than it needs to be. So, you know, there's a, there's every single artist who is successful has figured out a system to make it easy for them to show up. So as, as my kids grew, I was able to like leave things out on the table to dry. And so I could get back into paint. It was so great. You know, so those are just some small examples.
Kati (18:56.298) It sounds like you adapted and in really fun, cool ways and got to explore different avenues of your creativity. Okay, Alicia, do we want to start with the next questions?
Kati (19:16.034) Cause you don't have them in front of you, correct? you do? Okay.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (19:18.092) I do. I do. We've kind of been in a couple of them. I think now might be a good time if you're willing to talk a little bit about how your chronic illness, if you want to, how your chronic illness specifically impacted your creative process. Because I think the motherhood piece of it, as your kids grow, think, like, you kind of, it's not that you get back to normal, but you like adapt. to that experience. with chronic illness, I don't have personal experience being chronically ill, but my husband has been chronically sick our whole marriage. So my creative practice and my work and my mothering all kind of cycles around his cycles of like inflammation. So whenever he has a flare up, things have to shift and change. And that's still a process. It's not something that like, as my oldest child, she's now 10, it's very different than like squeezing work into naptimes. Now I don't have to do that. But with his chronic illness, that's something we might be navigating forever and we just don't know. So I'm kind of curious to see what that or hear about what that looks like for you because it sounds like in your artist statement and on your website, you incorporate that a little bit or quite a lot into the work that you're making.
Jocelyn Mathewes (20:44.138) I do really appreciate the question. And I think that chronic illness, like responding to the needs of chronic illness does mirror responding to the evolving needs of a child. And that's actually the title of my submission for Sarah's book. It's called My Fourth Child, because I have three kids. But for a while, I used to joke that my illness was my fourth child, because And I did that as a way, like it's sort of like a psychological defense mechanism because it meant that there wasn't something wrong with me. It meant that there was like my illness was a child that I just needed to take care of and nourish and pay attention to and that sometimes through tantrums and that sometimes was doing okay and like and that I could do things to help but that a lot of times its mood was outside of my control. So I used it as a helpful metaphor for survival and I think, you know, when the kids were little and their bodily needs were so intense and there wasn't really a way for me to be able to communicate that my energy level didn't have something to do with them or express a lack of interest in them or something else, like I didn't want the illness to have emotional content for them. You can't always shield children from that, but you can do your darndest. And after, know, it's just their normal. And so I'm sure like you've experienced with adapting to the shifting needs of your family as things ebb and flow. you just find a way to work around it and it becomes, it's still a sort of disruption, but it's a familiar disruption. I mean, I like to think about it like if my kids stay home from school with a cold now, it's like, okay, you stay home and you get some rest and you take some medicine and like, have, luckily I get to, I can work from home and I can still be here. There's adjustments that you make that you know.
Jocelyn Mathewes (23:03.012) And so it takes a while to get there though. And the real challenge with chronic illness is when it's super volatile and it's uncooperative and it's unpredictable. so for me, forcing myself to show up for my art in the midst of that was my way of... trying to understand the experience and to process the experience, you know, like in an art therapy sense. But then I also wanted that to be meaningful and more universal to other people. So when I was making pieces, I would make them about specific symptoms or specific, like specific test results or. weird dynamics that I would encounter in being a patient, like a chronic patient and routinely showing up for things that if you're sort of an average, hale and hearty person who maybe takes one medication. You don't have to show up to three different specialists and repeat the same story over and over again. You don't have to get your blood drawn, you know, 12 times a year. Maybe only go once a year to have like a few things checked. Yeah, art was... It was something that I explored that could take it outside of myself, that I could enjoy as a process, even if the topic wasn't my illness, because I did make art that was not about my illness in addition to making art about my illness.
Jocelyn Mathewes (24:50.796) Because it's like, it's the thing that humans do, right? We write and we make and we talk to understand our experience. So in that season where my illness was super active, I used it to understand and to express and to share my experience with it.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (25:11.682) I think that sounds really beautiful in a lot of ways, like hard, but beautiful in a lot of ways because it is something, the body I think is something that many of us who aren't sick or haven't been sick for a long time take for granted. Like you don't, I don't think about my every breath, but my husband, when he has like labored breathing is obviously considering like, this is hard, like it's hard to exist at all, you know? And I, think as a family member of somebody going through chronic illness, it's just kind of beautiful to think about as, like from an outside perspective as an experience, because it does seem to be more common now than it has ever before that chronic illness is something that afflicts a lot of families. So unfortunately, in a lot of ways, it's relatable to many of us.
Jocelyn Mathewes (26:11.586) Absolutely, there's that statistic in saying that a lot of chronic illnesses affect women. Women often have to deal with these illnesses that are mysterious. They're often misunderstood by doctors, and so there's that layer on top of everything, especially for women trying to live their multiple beautiful identities out in the world and having to adjust to this on top of many other things.
Kati (26:42.658) I'm curious to know how long it took you to be able to get to the point where you could separate it from yourself and say, this is my fourth child. Because it kind of reminds me almost like the stages of grief. There's a process that we go through where we go from, my gosh, I'm not feeling well and then. Unfortunately, the United States healthcare system kind of sucks, particularly for women, because like you said, know, they tend to be mysterious and people don't really know it and doctors don't always take women seriously when they come and they're saying, hey, I've got all of these things that just don't feel well and sometimes we're dismissed. So going through that process, like, did you find that it was a fairly quick process or did it take you a while to be able to get to the where you are now where like, Sometimes I'm just home with a cold. In air quotes.
Jocelyn Mathewes (27:45.408) So I think I need to ask a little bit more clarity. Are you asking about specifically diagnosis? Are you asking about more health stability? Or are you asking about being in a place where I could psychologically make peace with things?
Kati (28:05.698) I'm gonna go with the last one, psychologically make peace with things.
Jocelyn Mathewes (28:09.62) Okay, never at peace. It's more like, it's more like we're, are polite roommates to each other in this stage. I, you know, I'm lucky enough right now to be in a season where my illness is not particularly active. So, so there's that, but. You know, there are occasions where in a sudden moment it becomes very like, I'm reminded that I am not, I am not like 100 % normal. Like when I go and exercise, I wanna be that marathoner that I always wanted to be. Or I wanna like, I wanna be able to. I don't know, like run up a hill and not be out of breath, but like I've got a lung injury. You know, like there's all kinds of, there's all these little things that have piled up where little tiny reminders, but I mean, that's also like, in some ways I also feel really lucky to have to have that early. to have experienced some serious human fragility early on in my life because I remember having a lot more in common with old people. We used to complain about our joints together and it was really kind of fun. I get to sit down with the grandmas at church and they're like, yeah, my knees. And I'm like, yeah, I know. And like. It's gonna happen to all of us, guess what? So in some ways I'm like, all right, I know what's ahead. I can be a little more mentally prepared, but maybe just like not really want to anyway.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (30:04.131) It seemed up.
Kati (30:16.552) up.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (30:18.186) Okay. Are you good?
Jocelyn Mathewes (30:22.316) Didn't I tell you that the teenagers were gonna need me? They came home and they're like, I need your foam roller, I hurt from practice. So she was just trying to wiggle the doorknob. like, got a text, wiggle the doorknob. So.
Kati (30:24.694) huh. Yup.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (30:24.708) Please. 31.739) That's cute!
Kati (30:37.888)-huh. Yep. That reminds me, should have been paying attention to my phone for a phone call for the toll that may or may not be coming before seven o 'clock. Who knows?
Jocelyn Mathewes (30:44.564) You
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (30:49.582) Do you need to check that?
Jocelyn Mathewes (30:50.666) Yeah, you can go check it. Go check it.
Kati (30:51.881) Yeah, I'll go check real quick. I just heard the garage door go up, so I'm like thinking, maybe I am needed. I don't know.
Jocelyn Mathewes (31:01.024) do it.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (31:01.188) Go for it.
Jocelyn Mathewes (31:07.296) love this casual, like, life's happening.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (31:12.504) Yeah, it's been helpful. kind of did like a re, kind of a restart of the podcast in the last year and we're letting it be more of a project than a business. know, that like capitalization piece of it, we're just letting that be and just enjoying it as, I guess, art, you know, the creative process.
Jocelyn Mathewes (31:34.087) that's great. I'm sure it was hard to make that adjustment though, you know?
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (31:38.788) It was. started as like a, I started this like in 2020 as kind of a yoga studio. So it's vastly changed since then. Yeah. Like a virtual yoga studio during COVID. And now it's a podcast where we talk about stuff like that. Hi, Kati.
Jocelyn Mathewes (31:46.133) wow!
Kati (31:59.212) So.
Jocelyn Mathewes (31:59.379) Wow, yeah, that is an absolute journey.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (32:03.94) Yeah, I was telling her how I started this in 2020 as a yoga studio and four a half years later, we've shifted entirely away from mind -body practice to talking about our individual and collective experience. It's quite a bit different than it was.
Kati (32:21.856) Yeah, it is. It's a very, I mean, I don't wanna say that mind body practice is no longer a thing, but yeah, it's very, no, no, no, no, we're not teaching that. So yeah, it's very, very different. It's been a very interesting evolution.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (32:30.53) or we're not teaching it. 40.354) one of those adaptability pieces though, I think, because my family too has experienced a lot of change. I think all of us have during COVID, during the pandemic, but when you have chronic illness, I think it's like doubled down in our little world up here.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (33:03.537) Do you have a question based on where we were, Kati? I had a question, but I lost it immediately. So, okay. I should have written it down. That's okay. Do you want to dive into talking about the piece that you submitted? You've kind of shared a little bit about it, but we don't have like a preview of either book. So if you want to dig into...
Kati (33:07.596) Me? No.
Jocelyn Mathewes (33:11.481) No, I'm so sorry.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (33:30.484) why you chose to submit a piece and the kind of topic you chose. You touched on that a bit.
Jocelyn Mathewes (33:37.218) Yeah, really, so I chose to work with Sarah because I really love her work. I love how the project was going to be everybody's voice. I know that for the book she's got 55 mothers in the book contributing work and there's something just so powerful about hearing all of those voices all in one place and. everyone sharing something unique and creative out of their experience. So that was very attractive to me. And I specifically created a piece of writing about my chronic illness experience, mostly because, you know, I do a lot of visual art, but writing is also a part of what I like to do. Titles are important to my work, to understanding them. You know, my background in graphic design and photography means that I often work with words and images together. And so I had already put a lot of images out and I thought maybe it's time for some words to share a little bit about just how chronic illness can be unpredictable, how.
Jocelyn Mathewes (34:57.506) how it's often invisible and how it shapes my caregiving and my creative practice and how, well, maybe this is a spoiler, but it concludes with a little reflection on grief because you leave things behind as you get older. You watch your kids grow. and you have these memories, your body changes, you make choices, and you have limitations, and you can get lost in like a fantasy land of like what could have been. But, you know, I can't change that the only mother that my kids have known is one that's sick, but I can still make something beautiful out of it. So that's what I'm gonna choose to do. I mean, yeah, I'm gonna like lay down and mope about it from time to time, but like, get up and you gotta get, you gotta do and enjoy what you actually have. Even if, I'm gonna like harken back to a really hard time. Even if all you can do is lie in bed and let them crawl over you. You know? And that's, and sometimes that's the... You know, the fact that you're doing that is really totally enough.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (36:26.574) Yeah.
Kati (36:26.783) Absolutely.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (36:29.624) I think there's a consciousness piece that you bring to at least the way you're talking about your art and chronic illness that we don't always highlight when you are sick or when you do kind of face your mortality in different ways than the average person. I think you're like forced almost to face reckoning with what you really value and what you're doing with the time that you have like Is it based on what you value and what you really want to be doing? And I think there's actually, I know it's kind of a both and piece, but I think there's actually a beautiful piece for your kids, for our kids to kind of develop this sense of empathy and feeling and grieving at this age where they're watching the process of life and illness and. health and that kind of cycle between. think there is a beauty to it that's really painful a lot of the time and also like a necessary part of the life cycle that a lot of us don't see until much later.
Jocelyn Mathewes (37:41.354) Yeah, think there's a concept, there are two concepts that I take to heart from my faith that really play into that. there's the ever famous memento mori, you know, where you need to remember your death, because it's a very focusing practice. And then there's also the concept of joyful sorrow. That, that, that, It's an absolute paradox, but it expresses everything about humanity, that there's simultaneously so much to celebrate and simultaneously so much to be sad about, and that it's not... It's not all one thing or another, it's both and, and sometimes things contain more of both in quantity and sometimes it leans to one side or the other and sometimes it's just a little bit. In English it's bittersweet, but I like joyful sorrow because that feels a little bit more extreme and a little bit more, it's emotional. Bittersweet is a taste. Joyful sorrow is an emotional state.
Kati (38:51.264) Yeah. It's funny that you brought up the memento mori because I was actually thinking about that. I was like, yeah, it's like the someday remember that someday you will die. And it also brought up for me when you were talking that I think it's so beautiful and interesting that you are joining one of the most ubiquitous things about humanity, creativity, with the most ubiquitous experience, which is grief and loss, and your expression of those two things together. I think that there's this, I don't know, really cool... I don't know, I don't know the word I'm looking for, like juxtaposition or marriage between those two things.
Jocelyn Mathewes (39:45.312) Yeah, I mean, I think it also springs from like my personality about like, it's things that are so terrible that you just have to laugh. You know, like when things, when tragedy just, it's not like tragedy and comedy are like over here. It's like, it's just a seesaw, man. I mean, it's all about how you frame it. And so the fourth child concept is a way for me to be like, to sort of like dismiss or shift or make jokes about and to have a healthier, less despairing relationship. Gosh, we got real dark real fast, y 'all.
Jocelyn Mathewes (40:29.658) But I mean like life is hard sometimes and and that I always end up here when I'm talking about my artwork like the happy shiny stuff is like I had a party at my house last week and a hall these artists came But then you know the other side of my practice is like here's a whole bunch of hard stuff So, you know in some ways those two things kind of play off of each other on like a macro level Kind of nicely just thought of that right now. So
Kati (40:54.389) Mm
Jocelyn Mathewes (40:58.86) You
Kati (41:00.8) The Joyful Sorrow.
Jocelyn Mathewes (41:01.908) Yeah, exactly. Like there are some things to be sad about, I'm still, get, I still get to go out and be in my community and to engage with people and what an honor that is.
Kati (41:13.314) And it seems like you've really created a cool community. I was like looking back at a lot of your previous exhibitions that you had and you've organized and all of them seem super cool. Could you tell us a little bit about what got you started in that and kind of the process of starting the community, keeping it going, how you select things, just I'm really cool. I think Creativity and community and mental health and community are just so important.
Jocelyn Mathewes (41:47.042) Yeah, I think a healthy creative community helps to make a healthy society and a healthy city. So I've lived here for about 10 years. You know, this is the place that we've gotten to be and we've put our roots down and I'm all about growing where you're planted, even if there are parts of the place where you are that are not quite a great fit. And if you don't find what you need, you better go build it. Not everybody can do that exactly, but you've got to build what you need to be able to thrive. And I really, really wanted a creative community. I was actually inspired to start some meetups regionally by Caitlin Butine, who ran the Artist Mother community and had a retreat for Artist Mothers. And I brought that. was like, well. They live outside Nashville. There's a bunch of people like two hours away in Knoxville and some people like three hours away over here. I guess I'm just gonna have to do it here because people aren't gonna drive three hours to come to where I live. So yeah, that's the beginning of the Meetup community and...
Jocelyn Mathewes (43:10.72) the gallery exhibits started because when COVID shut everything down, I was just really frustrated that nobody had a place to sell their art or display it. And that happened, like the pandemic started about four years after we had bought this house and I had this dining room that I had hung my art in. and I was photographing my work in that room to put on my website and to sell. And it just occurred to me like, this little room could just be a gallery. Like if I go on Instagram live, no one's gonna know that it's not my house. You know, so I totally was like, I can pretend to be a super fancy white cube gallery, but just be streaming from this random house here in the mountains and no one's gonna know. And I actually like fooled some people. They were like, I thought it was so much bigger than it really was. Like was so funny when I actually opened it up to the public. And I just got the biggest kick out of it too because I could be this like fancy white cube gallery and then people could stick me on their resume and like it's a legit space, you know? And so it's this whole like... I really like the idea of like snubbing the art establishment a little bit, even though like I affectionately love it really. Like I love the art establishment so much. It's so funny and it's so great and it's so serious and I love it. No shade to all my academic friends, but it was just, it was like a little game. It was like, how long can we keep this up? So basically the exhibits that you see are like artists from the community who I was just like, do you want to have a show? Like, do you have work? Could you like? do this and they drop off the work at my house, I'd hang it listed on the website and maybe they'd sell some stuff. And as the...
Jocelyn Mathewes (45:00.002) pandemic progressed and like people started going back and real galleries started opening that ended up changing the nature of how I needed to engage with the community because there was a natural pull back to centers of community that were based in physical locations that were more walkable and more organic and built into the normal rhythms. So, so I had to make something totally different. And so I started combining artists together and and I switched it into something completely different where I do, past two years, I've done a themed exhibit and then the yard party, which is like, I just put out a call and I'm like, who wants to put something on? Like, it could be anything. I'm really open to whatever you wanna do in my house. And so that's like. It's really hard not to get in to some degree because most of the people who are applying are like, hey, you will you let me do this? And I'm just like, yes, sounds great. And yeah, and I just cater some food and people show up and it's a great time. So who doesn't like a party? But it happens to have art and then maybe people make money and maybe they don't, but we all get together and we have fun.
Kati (46:25.654) seems like a really low stakes entry point for some people. Like, okay, maybe I wouldn't be able to get it into some super fancy, whatever, mainstream gallery, but I can display it in this really cool space at this really cool yard hangout instead, and just start somewhere. And I think that's really cool because I don't think there is a whole heck of a lot of support for like... artists who haven't made it or they're not known. And I think that's beautiful that you're like, hey, it doesn't matter what it is, bring it here. I will display it and we'll see what we can do for you.
Jocelyn Mathewes (47:08.224) Yeah, I mean, that's not to say that I don't have some curatorial taste. There is sort of a minimum bar that I do need to hit with quality, but.
Kati (47:11.732) Sure, sure sure sure.
Jocelyn Mathewes (47:21.191) most of the people in the community who want to show up have something really interesting to try or it's a new body of work that may be outside of what they normally do and so there's a gallery that they work with or a retail outlet but this is like other stuff because artists create in more than one medium or they create a more than one topic but maybe it's not the thing that's sold in the marketplace. And so, so my space gets to be the place where the weird and the new and experimental can happen.
Kati (48:04.03) cool and I think we need spaces like that too because in experiments is where it's really cool artwork can happen. Actually, that's how we got Gmail is in Google is like Google at one point in time. I don't know if they're still doing it would like basically give flex time to their workers to do whatever they want. They're like, yep, do whatever you want. Figure it out. Create something cool. And Gmail is one of the things that came out of that space where like a person was just working on it in their spare time. And it was weird. And it was different and whatever. And now it's like probably one of their most successful things that they've got in their suite of things. So who knows, maybe you've got the next Gmail in one of your yards.
Jocelyn Mathewes (48:58.274) I mean, who knows? I actually work in marketing with some creatives on a team. And so one of the things that I keep talking about is like, how do we in this space find a way to make time for the creative work that I know is valuable, but that looks like a waste of time? And so I feel like I have that same role, but also on my journal. So it's a challenge. It's a challenge, but yeah, great stuff comes out of it. And it doesn't always, but when it does, it's pretty awesome.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (49:43.704) Did you get into, I don't know if we have a ton more questions, but I'm curious, like if you got into community organizing or community events, like after the fact? were you always kind of interested in hosting community parties or art within community, or was that just the COVID piece of it where you, or moving to wherever you are and wanting that and not having it?
Jocelyn Mathewes (50:12.758) Well, you know, I think that my family history contains a hosting legacy to some degree. I remember growing up with my grandmother. My grandmother and my mother both did this because my grandfather was a professor at a university. he would befriend foreign students who were staying over the holidays in the United States because they couldn't go back home. where are they going to go for the holidays but to my grandparents house for an American Christmas. And so there was, you know, my grandmother would make the space for these foreign students and make all this food and they would bring their food and it would be a whole experience over this American holiday. And my mom continued that tradition where she would host international students as well for holidays who maybe didn't have family. So, not exactly the thing that I'm doing now, but I think I saw how easy it was. Like, you can just invite people over. And people will say yes. And if they don't, well, you get to like watch TV instead. So I mean, and I, when my husband and I, we were in seminary with two small children in like a tiny little apartment. And you're all, it's like being back in college, but like with a bunch of, you know, people studying intense theological things. But, you know, Christmas party, we're like caroling and I think that
Jocelyn Mathewes (52:04.26) must have been maybe 600 square feet. We just like crammed 30 people in there and made our own eggnog and sang Christmas carols. I mean, you can just, it doesn't have to be big. I think hospitality is just so important. So it hasn't taken that shape. But once I realized that there was a gap in the regional community that I existed in, I was like, well. I've done it over here, I could do it over there. So, it's kind of fun.
Kati (52:41.478) Yeah.
Jocelyn Mathewes (52:44.396) get a good vacuum cleaner.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (52:46.724) It's messy.
Kati (52:48.948)-huh. 52.884) Yeah, people spill stuff. Like they don't mean to, you know.
Jocelyn Mathewes (52:57.098) It helps when you already have had like small children, because there's just no way that a crowd of people can be as bad as just a few small children.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (52:57.196) You
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (53:05.604) That's fair. Yeah. Kids with food.
Kati (53:09.908) Uh-huh Yup, tell me about it.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (53:15.299) Do you have any questions for us or any kind of any piece that you want to share that we didn't hit on?
Jocelyn Mathewes (53:29.878) What does your creative practice look like?
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (53:34.052) That's a good question.
Kati (53:35.938) Who are you asking?
Jocelyn Mathewes (53:37.698) I'll start with you, Kati.
Kati (53:38.918) goody. So my creative practice is kind of all over the place. I also am chronically sick, chronically ill. It's been showing up in like just extreme fatigue for a while now. And then also now I developed Ulnar Tunnel Syndrome, which is carpal tunnel syndrome, but it goes from your pinky instead of your thumb. And so a lot of it works around my energy levels and a lot of it works around, again, my family. I have a kiddo and a dog and a partner and all these things. So a lot of it is just trying to. find the time as well as when I have the energy. So sometimes I have the time, but I don't have the energy. And so I do something else instead. I totally got when you were like, I'm like the old people. I'm like, me too. I'm like the old people. I have to get ergonomic pen holders. And I now thinking I'm investing in ergonomic knitting needles because I've been knitting and it has unfortunately made my ulnar tunnel syndrome worse. So it was doing good there for a while and then I was like, I love to knit. Let me get back into that. And I was like, but it hurts. So I'm going to look into that. But I most of my creative stuff right now has been writing and working on a book. I've been working on this book now for almost two years at this point. I also do a lot of... I love creative stuff around... I just refinished this desk that I'm sitting at. So when we moved into this house, there were several furniture pieces that were not in great shape, but were very sentimental, and so I just refurbished several of them. So my creative process looks like that too, as well as a lot of artsy
Kati (56:00.098) crafty kinds of things. Like I love doing crafts, especially with my kiddo. Like I just made, air dry clay pumpkins for the season, which was super easy and super fun. And it was just, hey, it's fall, let's make pumpkins. That's cute. So yeah, a lot of my creative processes when I have the energy, when I have the time.
Jocelyn Mathewes (56:28.0) that's absolutely very, very familiar. I remember that one of the things that I used to do was I would have, I got in the habit of having multiple projects in process of different types so that like I can set aside, like make an appointment with myself on the calendar and be like, this is going to be my creative time. But you never know how you're going to feel when you get to that time. So you give yourself a little menu. You're like, here's the easy thing. Here's the thing that doesn't hurt my body. Here's the thing that has a deadline. And you can pick from the things based on what your body is telling you. I don't have to do that as much, but it's also really hard to break that habit now.
Kati (57:22.518) Right?
Jocelyn Mathewes (57:23.158) Maybe I shouldn't break it. It's coming eventually. But there's a book when you were talking about, I'm sorry, I'm on the thing. When you were talking about, you know, the adaptive.
Kati (57:26.774) Yeah, yeah, it's a process of listening.
Jocelyn Mathewes (57:39.916) the adaptive tools that you're using for knitting. That made me think of a book that I read that is very thought provoking. The artist, Sarah Hendren. She's also a designer. She wrote this book called, What Can a Body Do? And it's all about bodies and the designed spaces and the designed objects that we interact with and the assumptions that they make about our bodies. And, you know, the people who have to function in these environments who don't have bodies that meet those assumptions. So that's a whole piece to the chronic illness world that, you know, I also, I have ergonomic pillows in my car and all of those, you know, my desk is at this optimal height and all these things so that I don't ruin myself. So yeah, all these things we have to do when bodies don't cooperate.
Kati (58:36.044) Mm -hmm. 42.72) Yup.
Jocelyn Mathewes (58:44.492) When bodies are just bodies, right?
Kati (58:46.018) Our bodies are bodies are doing the best that they can with what they've got. And then we just adapt to them. It's been a process though of listening to my body and like, cause I unfortunately have a habit of being like, it doesn't hurt that bad. can, I can do the thing. And then later on being like, Ooh, I really should not have done the thing because now I hurt like 20 times more than if I had just listened to my body and done something else instead. But it's a process, you know? It's like a constant ebb and flow of listening to your body and also listening to what your mind needs to.
Jocelyn Mathewes (59:23.606) Yeah, I think part of my art process became like, it almost functioned as like an obsessive documentation of what was happening because I felt like an insane person. Like, did I feel this way before? Did that look like that yesterday? You know, and so that's where all the content came from, y'all Copious notes.
Kati (59:55.488) Your turn, Alicia.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:00:00.612) I should start by saying that I don't really identify as an artist. That's something that Sarah Shots brought to my attention. I was always drawn to her work as an artist. I follow a lot of artists on Instagram. My oldest sister is an artist and so I'm drawn to that space, but I've never considered that as something that I would identify as. However, I do like the word creative. And like you, I'm in marketing, so I'm on a creative team of marketing experts, and my role specifically is copywriting. So I do a very creative, I spend a lot of time creating throughout the week. And I think my challenge with that then is like balancing what I create for work, what I do for money with creating things that I do. for myself and for me at this point, not monetizing any of the extra things I'm doing has been maybe a relief or like a piece of freedom within that because I have been exploring a lot of different things. So like the most recent thing has been sourdough baking with my kids. But I did recently kill a sourdough starter because one of my other challenges is that I get bored. I like to like experiment with different things and then I'm like, I'm complete with that experiment. So I'll go do something else. So I've recently killed my sourdough starter and I've been doing a lot more movement now. So I used to teach yoga, I used to dance. So I've been like creating a lot more sequences. I'm not selling them or teaching them or doing anything with them, but I do write them down and sometimes and just kind of mess around with movement a little bit more lately. But for me, it has been like a really intense ebb and flow with a variety of things. And I tend to like to try things that I know zero things about. I like have no experience with. I'm just like, that looks cool. I took a pottery series last year. I'd never touched pottery. It was really fun. So yeah, I just like to learn artistic stuff and not like have that
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:02:24.974) pressure there to like make it, I don't know, successful or whatever.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:02:30.816) Yeah, I definitely feel that whatever shape the art has taken in my life, it's needed to be a foil for the thing that I sort of have to show up for. So, you there was a season in my life where I really did want to try and monetize my art experience and I was really into experimenting with the different ways of doing that. And then, you know, stuff, stuff happened and it was like, I don't really, maybe not. And moved on from that. And it's very, you know, it's nice to be able to have the flexibility to do that. But it sounds like you're on like a progressive dinner of art experiences.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:03:10.83) Yeah.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:03:10.998) Which is a delightful way. It's at the dinner that never ends.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:03:14.628) Yeah, yeah, I think that's the phase of life I'm in. My kids are like, my youngest just started half -day kindergarten, so this is my first ever time, period of time in 10 years where I have confirmed childcare for multiple hours of a day. So I think things will change in the next couple of years, but this is where we've been for a little while.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:03:41.782) That's very cool. Thank you both for sharing. was just curious what that might have looked like for you. So it was great to hear that.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:03:48.642) Yeah, thanks for asking. Kati, do you have any other? I feel like I learned a lot just from like the perspective that you have and where you've been. And I don't know all of the pieces that you shared about your experience with chronic illness, but I don't have any follow up questions do you, Kati.
Kati (01:04:11.69) What are you working on now? And what, how do we find you? So people want to find you, where do they go?
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:04:20.512) You can find me at jocelynmathewes .art on most any platform that exists at the moment. And we should note that my last name is spelled a little differently. It's -T -H -E -W -E -S. And the way that I like to help people remember is just imagine female sheep doing calculus. Not everybody's gonna get that, but. That's not a fail safe description, but what I just finished, a quilt made from my cyanotype prints on fabric, which has taken me so many months and I am so proud to have it done.
Kati (01:04:47.778) That's funny.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:05:06.634) because I was inspired by Rick Rubin. I read his book, The Creative Act, felt called out by one of his statements about how some artists don't finish things and they miss out on an opportunity for learning. And I was like, no, that's me. And so. I decided, all right, I'm going to focus and only do this quilt and see how that feels. And guess what? It feels really good. And I learned a lot. So now that that's done, I am completing a few other things. There's a drawing that I'm working on that's the opposite of a quilt. It's a high concept drawing that involves text and... kind of automatic writing a little bit. TBD, I don't know if I'm gonna like it. You might not see it, you might hear about it and then never see it. Yeah, a whole bunch of stuff you don't see and like a little bit of what you do.
Kati (01:06:08.534) And that is the creative process. 16.652) Yup. Yup, yup, yup. 22.762) cat is meowing. If it's not the kids it's the cat so that's fine. Okay well thank you for sharing that with us. The quilt sounds really cool. I can't wait for you to put it somewhere. Would you put it on your website I'm assuming? Heck yeah!
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:06:38.614) Yeah, you want me to hold it up right now just so can see it right now? Yeah. Okay.
Kati (01:06:43.924) Our listeners will not be able to.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:06:45.95) It's not, it's not a big, it's not like a full -size quilt, so it's not as impressive, but it's still, it's like this.
Kati (01:06:50.102) Okay. Bye! 57.215) that's pretty.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:00.408) That's gorgeous.
Kati (01:07:01.322) that's so pretty. It's nearly a full -size quilt. It's like a nice throw.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:07:04.438) critical.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:05.27) It's pretty large for a beard.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:07:08.064) Yeah, it's like a lap quilt. I did a whole bunch of embroidery with toilets. So this, it's all cyanotype on fabric, even on the back. So yeah, I decided to make it, no plan. Just, I had, I wanted to print on fabric and then I was like, well, what am gonna do with all this fabric?
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:12.494) That's so pretty.
Kati (01:07:12.736) Wow, that's gorgeous.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:18.807) Wow.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:07:33.526) you know, just literally following the process.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:34.02) Gorgeous.
Kati (01:07:38.166) Yeah, it turned out amazing.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:41.387) My grandma was a quilter. think she would have liked that.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:07:44.58) Aww. I did not have any quilters in my family. No!
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:07:48.437) No. I am not a quilter, but I spent a lot of time watching my grandmother make quilts for like church bazaars.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:07:58.695) man, that's intense.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:08:00.994) Yeah, she was a pretty intense crafter, maker, artist. Yeah.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:08:07.042) That's so cool.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:08:09.411) Well, thank you for showing us. Thank you for joining us for a...
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:08:11.379) Thank you for having me. It's just such a delight to get to talk to other like really cool people and connect across so many different like intersecting things. So it's been an honor.
Kati (01:08:12.396) Yes. 24.343) Yes.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:08:27.662) for us too. Thank you so much.
Kati (01:08:28.662) Yes. Thank you so much.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:08:31.852) Have a great evening and say hi to the families for me, even though they don't know who I am.
Kati (01:08:36.226) Absolutely.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:08:38.052) I've told my kids all about you. They'll actually be thrilled.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:08:43.81) Aww. If you tell them I officially say hi, I'm gonna give them a high five.
Kati (01:08:44.178) that's great.
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:08:46.434) Yeah, thank you so much. haha
Kati (01:08:50.548) my kid will love that. He's really into high fives right now, so.
Jocelyn Mathewes (01:08:52.233) you 56.416) Well, let me know what I can...
Alycia Buenger (co-founder) (01:08:56.524) All right, and then start.