PFAS Victory in Minnesota Featuring the Mama Bears!

In today’s episode, we feature the story of three incredible women who not only stood up against powerful industry but challenged the status quo in politics - working tirelessly across party lines and refusing to play partisan games - to pass one of the strongest laws in the nation to protect people from PFAS ‘forever chemicals’ in Minnesota. You’ll hear from three incredible advocates who call themselves the Mama Bears: Avonna Starck, Clean Water Action’s Minnesota State Director, Andrea Lovoll, Legislative Director at Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy, and Jennifer DeJournett from Ballot Box Strategies.   www.cleanwater.org/podcast

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Transcript

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And Minnesota is now the, the bar that has been set. And the entire United States is looking at Minnesota going, this is how you do it. And so you're gonna see a lot of copycat policy being made in other states across the us. the EPA is paying special attention to Minnesota and what we're doing and using Minnesota as a model. So the, the, the media and the attention that Minnesota has gotten has really amplified this this ripple effect that we're seeing with, with the work that we've done here in Minnesota. Hello everyone. Welcome to We All Live Downstream, a Clean Water Action podcast. In each episode, we will be interviewing, leading environmental and clean water activists about their work in the field. We'll dive deep into topics from drinking water and climate change to environmental justice, plastic pollution, and toxic chemicals. I'm your host, Jenny Vickers hib, the National Communications Today, we have an amazing podcast for you. We're going to be chatting with three incredible women who not only stood up against industry and billions of dollars, but challenged the status quo in politics, working tirelessly across party lines, refusing to play partisan games, and pass one of the strongest laws in the world to protect people from pfas forever chemicals in Minnesota. I'm so excited to welcome Avonna Stark, who are our actions? Minnesota State Director Andrea Lovoll, legislative Director at Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy, and Jennifer DeJournett from ballot, ballot box strategies to We All Live Downstream. Happy to have you here today. Thank you for having us. So before we get started, can you each introduce yourselves tell us more about what you do and where you live? So, I'm Avonna Stark. I'm the Clean Water Action Minnesota State Director. I have two boys, a 20 month old and a 19 year old who just graduated from high school. And we live in a suburb just outside of Minneapolis. I'm on the Fridley School Board, the Fridley Charter Commission, the Police Advisory Committee as well. I received my undergrad from the University of and History, and my master's from George Washington in DC in political advocacy and management. And I've really built my career around electoral politics, particularly supporting women and women of color as they run for office. Hi thanks for having me on. my name is Andrea Lovoll. I am the Legislative Director at Minnesota Center for Environmental Advocacy. I'm also a mom. I have an almost three-year-old. She turns three in August and right now we live in Roseville. But my family has lived in all kinds areas of Minnesota and across other states as well. I have two master's degrees. One is in communication studies from the University of North Texas where I focused on educational policies effect on college students, incoming college students. and I have a second master's degree from Metropolitan State University in St. Paul in advocacy and political leadership where I focused on policy advocacy. and after that, I headed directly into policy advocacy. I knew I was gonna end up in the arts, the environment, or in education. And so that's where I am. And my name's Jennifer Dejournett. I am a mom of four. My oldest is gonna be a sophomore in college. I've got a senior a sophomore and an eighth grader. I am an elected official for the last 10 years. I'm a a commissioner in Western Hennepin County for the County Park Systems. I've been involved in all levels of political campaigns up to multiple presidential level campaigns. And I work really hard to make sure all voices are heard, especially women's voices, and that their stories are told. And I am factually known as Ivanna's token Republican friend, and we can get more into that later <laugh>.<Laugh>. So I've heard, I'm so excited to chat with you all. I just wanna chime in that I'm a fellow mama as well. I'm a mom of a four year old, so it's exciting to be, to be chatting with you all. So this victory is such an incredible accomplishment. I just wanna start off by saying congratulations to you all. will you tell our listeners about some of the key aspects of this law? How will better protect our health and the health of our kids? Sure. This is a non-essential use span of the toxic chemical known as pfas, which we know is a forever chemical. And it bans 11 consumer product categories by 2025. The Minnesota Pollution Control Agency rulemaking will expand that list or has the ability to expand that list by 2032 regarding what they consider to be a non-essential use. It also creates a path to ban PFAS and firefighting foam. Before we started on this, pfas was not allowed in fire foam with regards to training and testing. And now this is pushing for the rest of the uses. It also creates an information disclosure requirement. So if there's a company selling a product with PFAS in it, they have to report that to the MPCA. And then there is a website shared across multiple states where consumers can go in and research the product they're considering buying and bringing into their home to see if it contains pfas. And it really is the first step to turning off the tap right now, 98 out of 101 of Minnesota's landfills that are leaching into the groundwater. And so this really turns off that tap of PFAS leaking into the water that eventually makes its way into our homes. So I guess we should maybe talk a little bit about what PFAS is. So we fought really hard in Minnesota to keep the definition to include the, the big umbrella of PFAS which is defined as having one fluorinated carbon atom. And I think it's really important to demystify some of the science here because it sounds really technical and really scary when you start talking about these really detailed chemical properties. But basically all that means is that a chemist has fluorinated one of the carbon atoms in that structure, and that's what makes it a PFAS chemical. So there's a lot of different chemicals that qualify as being a pfas chemical because it has that fluorinated carbon atom and that property is, is not something that occurs in nature. So it's something that has to be done in a lamp. Every single molecule of PFAS can be traced to a lab in Minnesota. and that was developed by 3m in the 1940s and then expanded to consumer products. the Chamber of Commerce estimated the session that it's between an in 9,000 to 12,000 different products now which is quite amazing. and so this chemical because of, of its chemical properties, which are, that it is heat oil and water resistant is a very marketable chemical property. and so it's been used in all of these different products because it was something that would make the product sell. So you think about rain gear or you know, flame retardants and varnishes and the, the stuff that you spray in your couch so that the wads water beads just come up, right? those are the chemical properties that made it really marketable and sell really well. And so these these products were marketed without releasing a lot of the research that showed that they were toxic to human health. And we now know that this that this form of chemical, these p a s chemicals can, can cause cancer, liver disease, immune system, system dysfunctions as well as other types of illnesses. It also bioaccumulates in your blood over time and it doesn't naturally degrade. that is another one of those chemical properties that was really marketable, but turns out to make it even more toxic. So when it gets into your bloodstream, it builds up and builds up so it doesn't flush out of your body. So whenever you ingest or inhale or have contact of PFAS on your skin, those are the three ways that you can get PPFAS in your body. It accumulates in your body over time, and it doesn't degrade naturally in the environment over time. So you have this really persistent chemical that it is in all of these consumer products that we're buying, and we are in contact with those products all of the time. It's in food packaging, so we're ingesting it. We're breathing it in because of little particles that fly off of these products, like in clothing or inflame retardants, et cetera. and if we put it on our skin, like we have outerwear that goes on our skin, we are putting it into our ports in our skin and, and getting it in that way. So then we're, when the product is at the end of its lifecycle, then it goes into the waste stream. And then we ingested again through food that's grown in soil, contaminated with pfas through water and through animals. So it is quite a, a dangerous chemical. And, and I'd like to touch on why this particular bill is called Amara's Law. What, what was, what got me inspired by first Avonna came to me and, and brought up this important topic and the work that you guys were doing through clean water action and your fund, and explained what it was important. And I, I did my due diligence, but then I met Amara through and hearing her story and all of her friends. and it really touched my particular heart. And Amara was this wonderful young woman who was 20 years old who got cancer from li living in, in the plume. And in fact, her story isn't unique. You know, I keep running into people of all political stripes there, who, who are on the west side. And Amara was very ill with cancer. And in the remaining days of her life really just refused to not let her voice be heard, even against powerful, expensive and interests who were spending oodles of money. some of the largest corporations on the planet actually. And this one young woman, 20 years old, who was in incredible pain in the final coming out of hospice to testify that saying, this is what happened. This is why this is important, and I know I'm gonna die from this. However, I want you to know what this is so that you and your communities can impact you know, and my voice can have an impact and then do something about it. And she just wasn't gonna stand down. And she wound up, unfortunately, passing away two days prior to the first vote on the house floor on this bill that she had worked so passionately for. And the legislators were so inspired that they took this section of law that they passed and they named it after her. And I'm gonna, I'm not gonna lie, like a 20 year old, I I, at her funeral, some of her friends posted pictures and they talked about it. And it when one of her friends at her eulogy said, and you forget sometimes cause she was so mature for her age and so thoughtful in her work that she said, her friend entered her text and says, what does one wear to one's first legislative hearing? And you just, and it just seemed like, I was like, oh, that's such a 20 year old thing to say. I could see my daughter, you know, like worrying and texting her friend and she'd come to the legislature and speak with such profound, thoughtful, or respectful, but determined words. And you just, I'm so glad that the law was named after her for her, her family, her friends, and her community, and our state. She deserved nothing less than that. Thank you for sharing that. It's such a heartbreaking story. I'm, I'm like almost in tears even thinking about it. Sorry. So thank you so much for, you know, doing this at this time and in Minnesota. It, it is really heartbreaking to her story and I I would love to dedicate this podcast to her family and to everyone who know, you know, knew her. So I'm glad that you mentioned that becausee I'd wanted to talk about like, why take this on in Minnesota at this time. Like what was the spark for you that kept you going through it all? Obviously this, this heartbreaking story and wanting to fight that it never, you know, happens to any other children again. But can you just talk a little bit more about this, like, why at this time in Minnesota and what kept you go going despite a lot of challenges that you might have faced? Yeah, we kind of had the perfect storm. We ended up with the DFL trifecta. Minnesota is a little unique. we have the DFL party, which is Democratic Farmer Labor rather than just simply the Democratic party. So we had DFL control in both chambers and in the governor's governorship. And then we also had a really great team of legislative advocates. Our house author Representative Jeff Brand had been working on PFAS for quite a while, both as an elected official and as an advocate. And he was really passionate from the very beginning that something had to be done. He was very clear that people were dying, children were dying, and he was not okay with that, and he was willing to do whatever it took. And he did a really great job pulling on other legislative team members in both the House and the Senate. And after a a long conversation, we decided rather than doing what had been done in previous years where it had been individual bills. So there was a standalone ban on PFAS in ski wax, and there was a standalone ban on PFAS in juvenile products, for example. We put everything together, the info disclosure or all of the non-essential use components and created one bill eventually the three bills. So the non-essential use ban, the firefighting foam ban and the info disclosure ban all got folded into one bill that we were calling the PFAS package. Then I connected with a reporter, Tina Winter from the Minnesota Reformer who had done a deep dive on Tartan High School and Tartan High School was in the 3M plume in the seventies, 3M dumped PFAS and it ended up creating a plume in the East metro, particularly where Tartan High School sits. And that's where Amara went to high school. So this reporter did a deep dive on a group of tartan kids and really the culture in that school, Amara shared that you had the jocks and the theater kids, and then you had the cancer kids and somebody's parent or sibling or even a, a student falling ill, and even passing became very common. You know, they, they talked about graduating and realizing that that's not the normal high school experience. So when I asked Tina if she had the contact information for any of the kiddos that she featured, she said, well, you have to call Amara first. So I called Amara's mother Dana, and she answered, which I, I didn't really expect in 2023, nobody really answers unknown numbers anymore. And I explained to who I was and what I was doing, that I was calling from Clean Water Action, and we wanted to push forward with this legislation. And I will never forget the moment. It still gives me goosebumps. I had her on speaker phone and I was typing to take notes, and she took a deep breath and she said, well, Amara's at home on hospice, and she's dying. And then she just went silent. And I felt so horrible that, you know, I felt like I was calling and just accosting this woman. And then she took another breath and she said, and I wanna do whatever I can to help you, and so does Amara. And we talked for an hour and a half. I ha I had to keep muting my phone because I was crying. I identified so fiercely with her as a mother. I couldn't wrap my brain around what this was like. Amara has a younger sister, Nora, who, you know, Dana and, Dana and her husband Michael were also having to parent and work through this, this loss they knew was coming. And you know, it was just this amazing moment where we had the trifecta. We had representative brand and our other legislative advocates. We had the Strande family and the Tartan kids. And then Andrea reached out and said, Hey, I heard you're doing this. I wanna join forces. Let's, let's take this industry down together. and I knew that we were gonna need bipartisan support. We only had one DFL vote as a majority in the Senate. And so I called Jennifer who, she always introduces me as her lefty bestie. And I said, there's absolutely no way that I can do this without Republican support, and I will never get Republican support if I don't have you. So let's do a crazy thing together. So, you know, we started calling each other our, our little group, the Mama Bears. And so the Mama Bears got together, and I still am kind of reflecting on it going, oh my gosh we did that how? <laugh>, how did we do that? So that was really how it rolled out from my perspective. Yeah. I so appreciate you talking about Amara Avonna because that was really the key that made the difference, right? Amara made all the difference. and we although, although all of us who were working on pfas really needed that kind of personal story and really bringing people who were genuinely affected and, and people who were dying because of pfa s and that was an element that had been missing for a while in our advocacy. in part, a lot of people were really afraid to talk about it. So I started working on PFAS in 2020 when I started at MCEA. And one of my colleagues, our, one of our staff attorneys, Jay Eidsness did a presentation on PFAS, and I had never heard of it before then. And he talked about how pervasive this chemical is and how toxic it is and how nobody's talking about it, and everybody's too afraid to talk about it. And I got so incredibly angry, and for years it was the thing that kept me awake. I worked for an environmental organization where we also tackle climate change, but PFAS is the thing that scares me. So this really became the, the pinnacle issue that I really folk wanted to focus my attention and my passion on. So I talked to Jeff Brand for a couple of years and he did a, a webinar with Jay and I and then Avonna was hired at Clean Water Action and all of the destiny aligned. So I reached out to Avonna, like she said and I said, Hey, I'm working on PFAS too. Let's do it together. And I, I truly believe as well that, like that was the thing that made the difference is these three moms who weren't gonna take any BS anymore. And we were gonna get this done for the sake of all families and all residents of Minnesota and let that ripple effect across the United States in the world for me. So I just came off a statewide campaign where it would've was the closest almost statewide victory for Republicans in 20 years. And one of the things that kept hitting across that campaign was the false notion that Republicans don't care about environmental issues. And, and that is completely not true actually. And it, I, when Ovonna calls and asked if I would help out on this issue, I was like, of course I can, because it makes sense. And of course we don't want to pollute our water. And of course we need to have responsible environmental policy in the context of operations and business. And that's good. It's good for everyone. And of course we don't want to pollute things. And then it's actually more expensive to clean it up than to do the right thing the first time. And I knew that there is bipartisan support for environmental issues and at least coming to the table. And I think that's what's gone wrong in, in the political space or the public policy space today. Everyone's gotten to the point where we have to vilify the person on the other side even if we have an honest disagreement or, and so it makes it harder to collaborate on things where we do have agreement and have those reasonable, thoughtful conversations and say, okay, we agree on the problem. We may have different solutions to the problem, but at least can we talk about it and work through those and come to something where we can agree and work together on. I think that's better not only for democracy as a whole, but I mean, especially in the environmental space. You don't want everybody on one side or the opposite side of the issue because then you don't have a negotiating partner on the other side. And when we had these meetings and I, <laugh> Avonna was, would bring me to hers and I would bring her to mine, and we would sit down and talk to people in a thoughtful way. They would say, you know what? We, we actually do agree. Now we may not like this whole omnibus bill, but if this was a standalone, yes, we could support this. And then you saw that in action when it didn't get loaded up with ridiculous amendments that were poison pills or, or reindeer games as I like to call them on the house floor, where people are just making people take ugly stupid votes or making the ridiculous speech just to vilify the other side. That such an important topic. Silence sometimes is, is also very telling in the political space to say, okay, all right, we agree with you. We're not gonna slug this out or muddy this up because it's the right thing, especially when the, when they're getting pressured as well to do those ridiculous things by the other side to create the legislative record on the issue. So, so I guess that's the thing that kind of kept me going is to say, you know, we can work together and we can have those good conversations if we all trust each other enough to have to know that we're all coming from a good place and with the right intentions. Thank you so much for sharing all of that. And it, it really you know, makes sense that the three of you were, were brought together and everything that you're saying, and I find it to be very incredible. I first learned about, you've asked chemicals here at Clean Water Action, but what really hit home and what's interesting to me is the storytelling aspect, like the real personal stories, like watching the Devil we know in Dark Waters and films like that, like where you actually hear people's stories and people getting impacted. It's, it's very inspiring. So I just wanna know, how did the three of you meet and start working together? Have you known each other for a long time or did you just meet during the campaign? So Avonna and I met, we met with I was doing, I was founding a women's organization on for the right center, center, right leaning women and a good friend of mine, Nancy Bosco, I flew her in to, to teach fundraising. And she was like invited Avonna to come, but to return <laugh> to not exactly say her political leanings. And because she thought the two of us would get along very well. So we've been friends for over a decade in a, in an era. I, like I said, where political, bipartisan friendships are very, very, very rare, especially in the way where one can cheer each other on whether or not we always agree with each other or not. And sometimes she does something or sometimes I do I'm cheering for you on, on as a friend, but I'm not really thrilled with what you're doing right now kind of way. So that's how she and I have been political allies and friends for quite some time. And then obviously through Avonna and this work, I met Andrea and I would consider her in that bucket as well, if I wanted someone to look at something and, and, and give me an honest take. I know that I, I have two new friends well, Ivana is an old friend and Andrea has a new friend who I could bounce something by and say, all right, tell me, tell me what you think. does this make sense? And I know that I would get an honest answer. and the truth, which again is very rare in politics circa 2023, where people don't, people say what's politically expedient, not actually what is the honest truth sometimes. Yeah. I didn't get invited to this cool friend circle until somewhat recently. and that was when Ivana was made the, the state director for Clean Water Action and Clean Water Action is an organization that MCEA has worked with in the, in the past. And so I made a point to get in contact with Ivana and find ways that we can collaborate. and the first time I talked to Avonna, it was like instant bestie. I just knew that we were gonna be such good friends, and I also felt such a, a good connection with, with Jennifer the first time we met. So it's, it's just kind of the, the divine forces meeting up again. It's just where everything aligned and now we have this amazing group of women working on things that we care about and we're good friends. Yeah. And regardless of, you know, Andrea's left leaning center right leaning, we still can have the same conversations around what it's like to be a woman doing this work and what it's like to be a mom doing this work and what the work we do means for the community that we wanna create for our kids. And so I think that that is such a great example that we're spending a lot of time on the state and the federal level fighting about things that just don't need to be thought about. And, and I think this is a really good example of if we all just take a deep breath, we can make some real meaningful change. That's so awesome. So I know you faced a lot, a lot of challenges. can you talk about some of the biggest challenges that you faced and how you, you know, worked together to overcome them? Yeah. from my perspective, you know, industry, when they decided to come out and show up, they, they came out loud and hard and they really sought to confuse people with partial science. they sort of told part of the story, they worked really hard to focus on, you know, this is gonna destroy business, this is gonna collapse the economy. and they worked really hard to avoid the human story because they knew that they couldn't compare the profits that they were going to make to the loss of life. you know, Andrea, I'm sure we'll talk about how they really stocked her LinkedIn. I didn't have that as much as she did you, but they were, they were really aggressive. they definitely discounted us and expected to operate in a way that the legislature used to operate. They really expected to wait until the last minute. And, you know, Jennifer had a, a conversation that I'm sure she'll expand on, where she was told that they were just gonna wait till conference committee to do the work. And so they really thought that they could go behind closed doors without any transparency where the public wasn't aware of the conversation that was happening. And bully lawmakers, we had one lawmaker tell us the, the phrase he used was that he was shook down. They went into his district and told him about all of the 3M employees that lived in his district, and he was going to be held accountable by them. it, it really was astonishing the way that they fought this without fighting it, if that makes sense. they weren't willing to say in open committees for the record, what they were saying behind closed doors, and I think that speaks volumes to what they were trying to accomplish. Yeah, I think this is where being moms is a really big part of this because as moms in this room, we know that moms are always prepared and moms are always stubborn when it comes to protecting kids. So I really think that, that the fact that we were all moms and just our personalities as part of that really had something to do with, with this. We were prepared we knew what the arguments were gonna be. We showed up to conference committee already knowing what those arguments were going to be, took the wind out of the opponent's sail by saying what their arguments were going to be and saying how they weren't true, so that by the time they got to the table where they were going to speak, they didn't have anything left. We had already discounted their arguments and they had nothing. And so when it got to be conference committee, we had already done the rounds with all the legislators and said, Nope, this is what they're gonna come tell you. This is what you say in response, and you tell them that the door is over there. And that was such an effective way to do it because it just left them in shock and shock to the point where they didn't know what to do at the end. And they became really desperate and like followed us around in the hallways and tried to do other things that, you know, they just didn't know what to do. They were left without tools. And I really think that that's a big part of how we won. Well, I think there's a couple things that are, that were going on from the business side that really surprised me. one was I was talking with one individual and I said, well, you, who was working on the issue on the other side, and I said, you have to talk to my friend Avonna, she's working on this issue and she's sort of an expert at it. And the individual said, well, no, we're gonna wait until the conference committee when the serious people in the room show up. And I took me by surprise, because anyone know knows me. I'm a, I'm a structural engineer. I'm actually you know, usually well read and, and nobody would say that I wasn't serious. And I, I wait a minute, we are the serious people. I actually should make a t-shirt that says that. And <laugh>. And so I was like, okay, well good luck with that. I, I, I don't think that's how it's done. I don't, I don't think. but okay. And then I had another conversation with somebody else, like in a bigger group format, not about pfa s but in about the legislation session as a whole, which included p ffa s and they said, I don't understand, because they're deferring to these outside groups. That's not how it's done. It's, you know it's done the different way. And then we deal with all this in conference committee and I, and so I, since I'm not, I usually don't do legislative work, I usually do more campaign work. I, I said to this group says, who I, I saw schoolhouse rock and how a bill becomes a law, and the little boy goes up on the stairs and I think this is how this is supposed to be done. You have an issue, you're unhappy, you advocate to govern, you know, to your legislative or you're elected officials, and then you do the work. and I think that it, it appeared that the big larger interest groups aren't used to working like that. I think they do show up at the end. I was also in some of the stories that they told about their issue. I kept sitting back most of the time watching it and going, this is how you advocate. They had a one sheeter with every chemical company logo known to man as the reason not to support this issue. And I thought, okay, this is probably the reason why I wanna support this issue, I guess. And they would tell stories and they would have people speak, but nothing addressed about the impact things had on everyday people's lives. And from that regard, it was the most instructive few months that I've, I've spent walking and participating in this a little bit of learning how how things are done and how things should be done. And I feel like this work was really how things should be done. People advocated, real people came to the table, real people told the honest truth, and we were fact checking things in real time. Some of the misinformation that was being stated was just ridiculous. So much so that we started fact checking on Twitter in real time. And when we knew people were going to say things, we would just say, you know, you can say what you want, no one can stop you, but we're gonna fact check with links in, in real time and, and be just as loud to make sure that the correct information gets out there. You're not going to be able to propagate information that's untrue. you know, when on your merits, not when by subterfuge. And I thought that was it was an very interesting thing to watch. And that's another reason why I'm proud of this work is that we just locked in and held at health firm and said we were gonna do the right thing, and we knew that the right outcome would happened because of that. After session ended, I had wine glasses made for the three of us that said, underestimate me. It'll be fun, because that's what they did. they spread a rumor that Amara wasn't actually writing her testimony in an effort to take her voice away and, you know, poke holes in, in her very raw story. And if you've listened to her testimony, you know, how raw and real it was. And, you know, one of the things that they were running around doing was calling me not by name, but that idiot pfas woman. And it just was these little steps, little actions that they were taking to try and make the three of us look like we were incapable. And, you know, l like Jennifer and Andrea said, really expecting to swoop in at that last minute behind closed doors and get whatever they wanted. And it really reminded me of my kids when they didn't get what they want and throwing a temporary tantrum, they melted down and didn't know how to actually talk about the issue if it didn't involve aggressive, aggressive behavior or forms of bullying. I think they were surprised by the fact that Avonna and Andrea were the, the door was always open, like early on you know, wanna set the tone of I'm going to meet with anybody and everybody to talk about the issue, and here's what your concerns are, and I'm willing to be thoughtful and listen and, and see if we can work together. We wanna be reasonable and be responsible and, and, you know, and do this in the correct, in a correct way. I mean, this wasn't about just because she had the votes, but because she wanted to do good, solid, honest work. And it was surprising sort of, kind of for me throughout the session how long it took kind of the opposition to even understand that, that that's how it, that's how this was gonna be done. Like, I don't, I think they wanted the whispered smoke-filled room, smokey, smokey back cigar room lunch, and they were like, no, this is open and this is transparent, and this is a respectful, thoughtful process because this work matters today and for the future. And also whether it's this issue issue or the next, or an expansion of it, that that's always, that's gonna be true. And that really surprised everyone because I think they really had been so used to that cloistered process that this is not how legislation should be done when it's about people. There was a lobbyist on the other side who I will not mention my name but to this day still has yet to look me directly in the eyes or say hello to my face. and I take that as a badge of honor that he's terrified of me, and that's fine. but I really think that it speaks to what, what Jennifer is saying is, is that they just didn't wanna engage with us and just wanted to do it the way that they had always done it. and the fact that this person still hasn't even looked me in the eye is evidence of that. This is so inspiring to me. And if I live closer, I would wanna come hang out with you all <laugh>. I'm in New Jersey, but if I'm ever in Minnesota, I would love to have a glass of wine and, and hang out with you all. Very inspiring, very powerful and perfect segue into what I wanted to talk about next, but that you stood up, you know, you never gave up and you won. You won against huge, powerful corporations with billions of dollars. so this is, you know, an incredible story about people power mama power too. Here at Clean Water Action, our tagline is People Action Justice. I know the three of you worked together a lot, but you also motivated a lot of other people to get involved speaking out, taking action. You know, we had thousands and thousands of our members, you know, contact their legislators, show up. We had people show up at hearings, press conferences. Talk a little bit more about that people power and how important that is. Sure. when I met the Strande family, I didn't just meet the Strande family. I met all of Amara's amazing community. Amara was very involved in her faith community. She was very involved in her high school and creating support groups. She was really involved in helping kids with cancer feel welcome when they first arrived to the hospital. And all of these people showed up. Amaras spent her whole life showing up for other people, and that gift was returned to her tenfold. And so we organized Tartan kids and a few who had graduated before Amara also came in. One of them, Derek Lowen had a baseball sized tumor removed from his brain. And one of the most powerful moments was he had, he had he didn't, he decided not to write his testimony despite the fact that he told me he, he struggled with memory issues sometimes, but he felt it was really powerful to, to speak hi, speak his truth from his heart. And when he finished, he said, I don't, I don't really know what else to say, but would you like to see my scar? And you could have heard a pin drop. And when he stood up to walk away you could tell everyone was just zeroed in on him when he walked away, because you could see that thick long scar that told its own story. And so those kids showed up, their family showed up. The day that we had the first vote on the house floor was a few days after Amara had passed in a few days after her 21st birthday. And everyone showed up with we, we stayed up all night and we made signs and we had a rally. They showed up and we created sort of a tunnel that the lawmakers had to walk through to get to the floor. And we kept it really positive and we kept it very happy, and the signs were very colorful. But we wanted to let them know that even though Amara wasn't physically there, she was with us. We also wrote letters to the editor explaining what PFAS was. We wrote letters to the editor in the districts of the lawmakers who were coming out and supporting us really, really hard. We held town halls in very specific parts of the state. We visited parts of the state that we're having issues with pfas. Our wonderful clean water action phone canvas pivoted very, very quickly to target lawmakers who were signaling that they might not necessarily be very quick to support us. And so we put some pressure on them with our phone Canvas team, our wonderful field canvas got out and let our members know door to door what we were working on and why their support was so valuable. And it really was a full team effort. Our field and phone canvas showed up. We hand delivered the notes that field collected two lawmakers thinking them for their support. We also testified very strategically with the way that Andrea and Jennifer and I crafted our messages to each of the committees. A really good example of that, that was, Jennifer had a ton of connections on the commerce committee. So she testified and really crafted her, her testimony in a way that her friends and allies on that committee would understand. we would joke that I, I speak DFL speak and she speaks Republican speak. And so we were really careful with how we packaged them. all of our town halls were partnered with MCEA, so while we were reaching out to our members, Andrea was reaching out to her members. And we used social media really, really heavily. And, you know, Jennifer's absolutely right when there was a situation where somebody either said something that wasn't factually accurate or threatened to say something that was factually not accurate, we would get on Twitter and we would get on Facebook and we in a very positive way share the actual truth and the actual facts and not what the way that industry was trying to, to present it. So it was a lot of moving parts, but it, it, it worked well. Well, and I think that the partnership of MCEA and Clean Water Action, I think was a really good partnership too because there are some things, for example, that we can't do at MCEA because we have a, a little bit more of a a focused effort. So we focus on the law and we have a lot of lawyers on our staff, and we have a science advisory board. And so everything that we do is based in law and science. And we are a C3, so we don't do anything with with political influence. and so having that partnership and having both Clean Water Action supporters and MCEA supporters there I think was a really good mix of people who, who came for different reasons and some of the same reasons. And so we really activated our network at MCEA, and a lot of our supporters became incredibly passionate about this. And I received a lot of messages from supporters following our win that said, you know, thank you for this work. this was a really huge win. We're so happy that MCEA was, was involved in doing this work. and we are approaching our 50th anniversary actually at MCEA and this is one of the things that we're gonna be talking about is, is pfas and what the last 50 years have looked like in pfas and what the next 50 years are gonna look like. And so this is, is now like a, a big part of, of what our organization's work does. I also think it's important to note that like some of this work still continues. Like there was a story in the Star Tribune the other day that Oak, the city of Oakdale, Minnesota, which is on the east side of of the Twin Cities knows that it's mixing water with clean water from a contaminate from contaminated wells. Because with PFAS PFOA, I think because they they have such high water demand so they need to pull water from contaminated wells. And so they're mixing it with water that's not contaminated to dilute it down. But we all know that it bioaccumulates and the EPA is reducing the levels allowable. So that's rather than go to the solution of, wait a minute, where are we getting our water? Where are we sourcing it? We know this is contaminated. The, we're putting water to the system that we know is contaminated. I mean, I, to me, that seems just nonsensical, quite frankly. So some of this education work continues to make sure that the policy decision makers that are making those decisions, whether it be at the local level or the legislature or up ticket understand that bad policy sometimes has long-term health consequences to real people. And sometimes tough choices are before the problem gets too big and then becomes more expensive to solve. Well, one of the things that Jennifer, you brought up was the media. Jennifer is my press conference guru, and right away she was like, we have to kick this off at the press conference. And every time anything happened, we're like, okay, now it's press conference time. And the media picked up on it, and once the media picked up on it, the average Minnesotan went, oh, wait a minute, I don't want that in my water. This makes sense. Yeah. And they started paying attention, and that really helped kind of pull all of these components together and solidify, because once the media was paying attention as well, then the lawmakers were really showing up. They didn't wanna be on the wrong side of history. And we were very clear when you looked at the media on both the national and global level, this was getting attention. This was happening, so you can be on the right side of history or the wrong side of history, that's up to you. And we made that choice very, very clear. And I think those, those press conferences and the way that both print and TV media picked up on this made all the difference as well. And Minnesota is now the, the bar that has been set, and the entire United States is looking at Minnesota going, this is how you do it. And so you're gonna see a lot of copycat policy being made in other states across the us. the EPA is paying special attention to Minnesota and what we're doing and using Minnesota as a model. So the, the, the media and the attention that Minnesota has gotten has really amplified this this ripple effect that we're seeing with, with the work that we've done here in Minnesota. Just days before Amara died actually two days before she passed away, the White House actually had reached out to her and her family asking if they could be part of their environmental policy on this issue to come speak out. And knowing her, she would've jumped and left at that chance. But unfortunately a very, very short time later, like a couple days later, she passed away. And that's just, to me, that's one of the most inspiring parts of this story. How one single voice can really just make even a president hear just by telling their truth and their story in an a real authentic way. And yes, I do love press conferences. I actually started a love press conferences through didn't realize how fun they were and important they were to telling a story and getting messages out. So I'm glad that it carried through to this important issue. Yeah, I think it's super important too, to get the media involved, you know, because that's, that's when people really start paying attention, especially when there's that storytelling aspect and that personal aspect that you can relate to. So kudos to you all. but, you know, you did mention the opposition groups sounds like they were very creative and how they attacked these bills. Can you talk a little bit more what this looked like? Yeah. There were attacks on the non-essential use portion of the bill. There were attacks on the information to disclosure portion, and there were attacks on the fire foam, and they were all very different. Representative Norris did a really great job in the house handling all of the fire foam concerns, I guess. and really the biggest pushback came from refineries and airports. They were worried about implementation cost to implement the availability of pfas free foam. And so through a whole lot of collaborative round tables where he brought all of us together, we were able to work out a system that worked for everybody to set Minnesota on a path to ensure that it was reasonable. and that was one of the things that I think we got a lot of respect for, is we didn't come in with a burn it down attitude. When industry came to us and said, all right the way that it works to formulate this new product without pfas, this is how long it takes, you know we took that into consideration. We worked with the agency as well, and P C a when they came to us to explain the length for rulemaking, all of that, it was really important that this was a process that we didn't have to keep coming back to in future sessions to fix. We wanted to do it right the first time. So I feel like working with Representative Norris, we really buttoned up the fire foam very, very tightly, and we're in a really good place there with a plan on how to roll this out so that it works for everyone. when the refineries came to him and said, well, in California, we get all this extra time, he came to me and I said, well, we don't have as many refineries as California, so give them this, this date instead and see if they take it because they don't need the extra implementation time because they don't have any as many refineries in Minnesota as they have, but in California. And that worked. And so, as long as we could justify what we were doing and why we were asking for what we were asking for our, our message was received well with information disclosure. That one was really interesting because part of the way that we found out what PFAS was in was when companies came to us and said, well, we don't wanna disclose that we have PFAS in toilet paper period products, contact lenses, dental flas a huge, that was a huge way that we really discovered some of these specific items. So we were able to actually add items into the non-essential use span portion based off of this feedback they were giving. And we just really relied on the argument that this is a consumer protection that Minnesotans deserve. They deserve to be able to go to a website and learn what is in the items that they're bringing into their home and around their family. In terms of the specific items that we were going after, we got the usual threats of, you know, this is to kill jobs. This is going to make things inaccessible for Minnesotans. This is going to be too expensive for, for big business. you know, a lot of fear-mongering and exaggeration, and it was this same message in every single committee hearing. So we were able to really address those things. And none of us wanted to be in a situation where, you know, we're post in a post pandemic world and you go to the store and you can't buy the cleaning product that you need. That's why we worked so hard to be reasonable. We worked really hard to make sure that people have the medical devices necessary to live a productive, healthy, safe life. My father was diagnosed with MS when I was very, very young, and he grew up using wheelchairs and walkers and all sorts of things through his recovery. So I understand what those things mean to people. We had a DFL senator and his daughter has a prosthetic leg, and so he wanted to make sure that his daughter was going to have the prosthetic that she needed to live a full life. And so we worked really, really closely, thanks to Jennifer who introduced us to one of the medical device lobbyists. We were able to have really good conversations. We, we met in a neutral location. We had coffee. We ended up exchanging phone numbers and texting, and again, really bonded over the fact that we were all moms and we're able to create language that was reasonable, yet effective and protected the community. I also think it was really helpful to be on this side <laugh> of the issue because there are very limited arguments that can come your way. And a lot of the arguments that opposition relied on were playbook what toxic industry chem toxic chemical industry has been using for eons. And one of the things that I mentioned in my senate testimony during the, the Senate Environment Committee was that they were using the same methods that the lead industry was using and the the things that they did where they tried to control research they tried to market the chemical as indispensable for modern day life, and then they looked to carve out exceptions and LED did that, and then p a s started doing that. And so it was really easy to say like, Hey, we already know the game that you're doing, and we're like 10 steps ahead of you, so just don't bother. and having that that knowledge in advance and knowing that their, their arguments were so limited I think really put us in the position that we needed to be in order to win. Well, and just some of the age old tactics that happen particularly to women per se, you know, you don't know what you're talking about. You're, you know, this is a little bit over your head. This is an expert. And I'm like, okay, well this expert that's standing in front of me, like, what's his background? You know, or we've got this big massive group that we, that, that is all supportive. Well, when did this start? Oh, like three months ago. So like, or, you know, a few months ago. It's not a, it's not a thing. So just being able to be clear-eyed and, and thoughtful again when real concerned and real. so it wouldn't know their version of serious people when, when people came with actual like, concerns and Listen, we know we wanna do this, you know, we know this is gonna happen, but can you, let's talk about the implications and the fallout of, of this all completely on the table. But I was, like I said, some of it was really eye-opening to me and, you know, to see how some of the sausage gets made behind the scenes and and how difficult, like the average person to it must be for them to get anything done through a process that can be broken at times with industry that's there. not sometimes doing the right thing, but sometimes not. And weeding through that to get to those good actors so that you can have those reasonable conversations and then make those accommodations was, was really critical. Well, I'm so incredibly inspired by your stories and hearing the stories, and I could keep talking for hours. I have many more questions, but our podcast is coming to a close and we actually like to end our podcast with a call to action. We are, we want our action after all. So we believe people can make an incredible impact by speaking out and making their voices heard. And your story is a, is is an example of, of, of this happening. And can you let our listeners know, like, how can they make a difference right now or what's ahead? I I know you probably are excited to, to see what else you can take on. So maybe let us know, like how people can get involved, whether they can join your email list or help you on your next legislative campaign. Yeah, so Clean Water Action Minnesota has a whole portfolio of pfas work that we're really excited to be moving forward this next legislative session. And I'm in the process of setting up meetings with lawmakers and having conversations around what are we gonna do on day one when session Reconvenes in February, which unfortunately will be here before we know it. And so joining our email list to follow along we work really hard to send email updates every time there's a new announcement, whether it's a new committee hearing or a press conference, a new victory, or wherever we might need support. So joining that email list will keep everyone in the loop. And also reaching out to the lawmakers who worked so hard to this happen and thanking them you know, they hear a lot from people when they're not in favor. and so letting them know that you appreciate the work just really is beneficial to everything that we're trying to accomplish. And helping people to understand that this legislation really is pro worker and pro family and pro kiddo really is really, really powerful. So talk to your friends, talk to your neighbors, show up to our events. We have a big event, October 8th brunch for Better at the Dakota Jazz Lounge, where we will be bringing our lawn making champions together, along with the Strande family and other Clean Water Action members to celebrate and have a really good time. So that that's another really great way that people can get involved in take action and learn more about what we're doing. Yeah. And similarly at MCEA, you can go to our website mncenter.org in the top right corner you'll see get action alerts, and that's how to sign up for our email list. You can also check out our shaping policy page where we talk about all of the different ways that we're working on pfas because we don't just do legislative work, we also do a lot of legal work in the courts. And so we're working on, for example, some e p a comments and some other research projects regarding PFAS. and you can read all about that on that page. and we also have fact sheets and posts. We have a webinar from a couple of years ago where we talked with Jeff Brand and my colleague Jay Eidsness, about about the PFAS work that we've been, that we've been doing. additionally I would just say that if this is your first time hearing about pfas, just start seeing it start paying attention to the, the media that's coming out, because there's gonna be a huge flood of, of new information, new research, new articles, new lawsuits of things that pop up over the next couple of years. So I would just say start getting yourself familiar with it and pay attention. And I would just leave with, you know, never be afraid to speak up and make your voice heard regardless if you're an expert or, that's fine. You can do your research and get more information or connect up to someone who knows more. find your local elected representative and, and build that connection. Go to your local city council meeting and again, build those connections with those people. And if there's something that is important to your life, it's probably important to your friends and your families and your neighbors and your community, and you can do something about that. and people will listen. Just be thoughtful, be respectful in your comments and just be determined because, you know, people will maybe not like it, but if you're in it for the right thing and you know that it matters, then it matters. So do something about it. Well, that is incredibly awesome way to end. Thank you so much for being here, taking the time to chat with us on We All Live Downstream, for your tireless dedication, never giving up no matter what and showing the rest of the country how it's done. So I hope to see many more laws just like yours. It's an incredible story. I think it should be shouted from the rooftops. That's why I was so excited to have the three of you on today. I'm so inspired. So I also think, you know, any filmmakers listening, this would make a great documentary just saying, just saying reach out to us. Thank you to all of our listeners for joining us. To learn more about our work, visit CleanWater.org. If you'd like to become a member support Clean Water Action, you can visit our website, CleanWater.org, and click on the donate button as a nonprofit. Your donations keep our engines running and allow us to continue to fight for healthier communities for all. You can subscribe to cleanwater Actions podcast. We all live downstream available on Spotify, iTunes, Google Play, and all of your favorite podcast streaming apps. Just wanna say bye everyone!