Episode 136 - DMR Interview - Professor Paranormal - Loyd Auerbach - The OG Ghost Hunter!

Buckle up for an hour with The OG Ghost Hunter!

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Welcome back to the DMR Studio—now in 4K! (Spotify, YouTube)

After a hiatus since 2023, we return with a cinematic, hour-long deep dive into the true science of the unknown. Our guest for this premiere is a living legend: Professor Loyd Auerbach, MS.

With a career spanning 46 years, Loyd is the Director of the Office of Paranormal Investigations, President of the Forever Family Foundation, and a Board Member of the Rhine Research Centre. Named the author of the “Sacred Text” on ghosts by Newsweek, Loyd joins us to dismantle myths and define the future of parapsychology in 2026. Prof is also a mentalist, magician and chocolatier – One of his tuxedo cats (Jake or Elroy ‘Blues Brothers’) was good enough to join us for most of the hour!

About Loyd Auerbach
Professor Auerbach is a veteran of the screen, having appeared in thousands of programs over four decades. His legendary media footprint includes:

• The Gold Standard: Two featured appearances on the original Unsolved Mysteries.
• Recent Hits: Surviving Death (Netflix), The UnXplained and Weird or What (with William Shatner).
• Classics: Multiple episodes of Sightings, In Search of, and Criss Angel: Mindfreak.
• Documentaries: Ghostumentary (Amazon Prime) and guest appearances on Late Night with David Letterman.

Connect with Loyd Auerbach:

YouTube Channel 

https://youtube.com/@askprofessorparanormal?si=OLKYEElijob8z0i2

Official Website: 
https://loydauerbach.com 

Rhine Education Centre: https://www.rhineonline.org

Support DMR Media:
If you enjoyed this 4K "DMR Theatre" presentation, please Like, Subscribe, and hit the Bell to support high-quality, independent broadcasting studio! 

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Welcome to DMR Chewie's Movie Reviews.

unknown 0:07

The red carpet. Enjoy the show.

SPEAKER_02 0:16

Alright, so welcome to the 4K DMR Studio. Buckle Up. We're about to go into a deep dark world of the paranormal. So Professor Lloyd Auerbach. This gentleman's name came right to the top of the list when I was doing my investigations in to finding a very suitable paranormal guest to come on the show. So let me just paraphrase a little bit off his website with his long list of credentials. So he's been in the game for 46 years in paranormal investigations. He's a parapsychologist. He's going to explain to us what exactly that field is all about. So he's the director of Office of Paranormal Investigations. He's the president of the Forever Family Foundation. He's an adjunct professor at Atlantic University and president of the board of directors of the Ryan Research Centre. He's also an author and co-author of nine books. In terms of his appearances, he's done that many on TV and also documentaries as well. Just having a bit of a read of the list that we've got here with sightings back in the 1990s in search in 2002. We've also got The Unexplained with William Shatner, Weirdo What also with William Shatner. He's also been on the History Channel, Travel Channel, he's been on David Letterman, he's been on Unsolved Mysteries twice. And he's also featured in a Netflix series called Surviving Death and one on Amazon Prime called Ghost of Mentory. So buckle up. This is the first interview for 2026, the Legends of the Lens series. So you're gonna enjoy this. So welcome back to DMR. Thank you for tuning back in as always. Much obliged. So today I've got a very special guest tuning in all the way from LA. It's night time there, it's 9 p.m. Professor Lloyd Araback. Welcome, sir.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Thank you very much. And actually it's a San Francisco Bay Area. Oh, is that still I thought you were in LA? No, no, no, I'm in Northern California.

SPEAKER_02 2:23

Ah, okay. Gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. Okay, cool. So thank you for coming on, sir. So I was doing a bit of research into the paranormal and ghost hunting and whatnot, and when that research came back, your name came to the top of the list. And I was after basically someone that wasn't a flash in the pan, wasn't a you know night vision goggle per se TV personality. I wanted the real deal. I wanted the science behind what parapsychology is. So why don't you give us a bit of a rundown on what parapsychology is, especially in the States? Because in here or over here in Australia, there is an institute of parapsychology, but it's not too well known. So why don't you give us a bit of a rundown on that?

SPEAKER_00 3:08

Yeah, I mean, I know of the folks that are down in Australia, some of my colleagues down there. Parapsychology is the study of psychic phenomena. So we cover uh extrasensory perception, we cover psychokinesis, which is mind over matter, and we do research on evidence and experiences that support the evidence for for survival of bodily death, the idea that consciousness can exist without the body. That's where a lot of the ghost stuff falls in, not all of it. Um, you know, we have a laboratory science and we have a field investigation and field research, and they're both kind of interweaved in some respects, especially historically. And uh the scientific controls that are done in the lab are of the top of top-notch grade. I mean, we frankly our prime our field's been a little paranoid because of the skeptics. So researchers in the lab are very, very careful. In the field, we try to apply the scientific method where we can, but really it's more of an applied science at that point.

SPEAKER_02 4:07

Okay. Okay. So you've been doing this for was it 40 plus years, 45 years? Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:13

45 years, yeah, 46 years actually now.

SPEAKER_02 4:15

46. Wow. Very, very long time. I'm 41. So you would you were doing this well before all it was an idea. So let's take it back. So when did you actually start? It would have been in the 80s, is that right? Round about when Ghostbusters kind of came out?

SPEAKER_00 4:28

Or so actually when I started doing started doing investigations was when I entered a graduate parasychology program in 1979. And my that was when my very first case happened was in the fall of 1979. So I kind of count it being in the field that long. Uh working in the field started in 1980, 81, 82, after I graduated and I first worked in New York City. But it was Ghostbusters and the publicity for Ghostbusters that kind of shots shot me, got me to write my first book and did a lot more for me.

SPEAKER_02 5:01

There you go. So you're the real life Dr. Pete Venckman or Egon Spangler, yeah? Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

Um, probably my colleagues would say I'm more like Peter Venckman than Egon Spengler.

SPEAKER_02 5:15

I like it. They're very uh very cool characters. But so that shot you to basically, would you say start them, or just mainly your career sort of snowballing? What what what was the the deal around the movie coming out and and you being in the game?

SPEAKER_00 5:30

Well, uh I mean what ended up happening was um because the movie had stayed, it had staying power. I mean, it was there from May through October at least in the theaters here in the States. Yeah, very popular. Um a newspaper, a local newspaper, the Oakland Tribune, did a major spread on me, and it was about me instead of our department at the University at John F. Kennedy University because everybody else was out of town when they wanted to interview somebody.

SPEAKER_01 5:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Uh they were all at a convention. And that got picked up by the Associated Press, uh, that article. Um, I ended up doing 250 radio interviews in October of 84. My colleagues did a whole bunch more. Um, it got me the book contract. I wasn't even I had an agent approach me actually. So, in some respects, it pushed me into I don't want to say fame or anything like that, but I became very well known at that point.

SPEAKER_02 6:21

How cool. How cool. So let's let's look at the movie at this at the start of um of Go Stuff is the original. So the equipment they use, obviously it's it's a fictitious movie, but what type of equipment would you use when you go out into the field?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

So the only equipment that really parapsychologists use uh besides note-taking and recording, because we want to record the environment, we want to record the interviews, which are important, um, would be environmental sensors, which ghost hunters have somewhat adapted, but they've taken it and said that they sense ghosts, and there is no technology out there that can sense or pick up anything to do with ghosts. We're trying to see what's going on in the environment when someone has an experience when they don't. That's an important consideration. Those are correlations, they're not things that things that change in the environment aren't necessarily caused by the ghosts, but they're kind of maybe byproducts of the experience people are having.

SPEAKER_02 7:22

Interesting. Okay. Okay. So what let's let's do a bit of a comparison. What was it like in parapsychology in the late 70s, early 80s versus 2026? How have things changed? Is it what is it becoming a lot more well known in the States? Like how do you see the field changing from now until then?

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Well, I'd say that in the 60s and 70s, especially in the US, parapsychology was pretty well known. Um research was supported in a number of locations. There were more fundraising funding organizations and foundations and other things that were available to us. There were a whole range of uh ways that the field actually was portrayed in the media in positive ways. And we didn't have the skeptics to worry about so much, although the skeptics organizations started in the mid-1970s. Um where we are today uh is in two different areas. One is in the laboratory. There's still research going on, there's there has been, it's not as well uh funded. There's very few funding organizations out there that provide funding for parapsychology research. Uh we have have dealt with um really the pseudo-skeptics, the the real cynics out there uh pretty well, I think, but we still have them. Uh I have to say, I can't say kind of on a tirade always against anything to do with the paranormal at all. They just dismiss it without thinking about it. So that kind of hurts a bit. But in the fieldwork world, so the ghost hunting world, the investigations world, things have exploded on the amateur and hobbyist uh basis. Um has brought people to parapsychology. I teach online courses for the Ryan Education Center, that's part of the Rhine Research Center, which is the longest-running laboratory and educational organization in the United States. Yeah. Uh that was with Duke University originally. And um, we're we get more people, um, especially since the pandemic, since people started doing online courses a lot more. But the um the ghost hunting world has kind of brought more focus and brought people out of the woodwork who otherwise would be keeping their interests quiet. On the other hand, there's a lot of bad stuff out there in terms of bad, it's not even science. Yeah. Um claims, and you know, uh, there are thousands and thousands of ghost hunters in the United States, and very few of them, a small percentage of them, really are doing anything to try to figure out what's going on. They're they're more about getting their their so-called evidence.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

There's one particular I don't remember the guy's name, but there's one particular, I suppose you call him a ghost hunter. He goes out to woodlands and also a lot of cemeteries as well, and he has some device where apparently ghosts or spirits talk back to him and he records it and it has conversations with him. So I don't know. Yeah, again.

SPEAKER_00 10:24

There are a whole bunch of those. Yeah, I mean, goat they're often called spirit boxes or ghost boxes. They sometimes do like radio scanners randomly scanning things. Uh or they're doing what's called electronic voice phenomena, just recording uh with a tape recorder or a digital recorder to try to get the spirits to put voices on the tape. Yeah. And sometimes they'll take any gra any any unusual noise because they weren't paying attention close enough, uh, and and interpret it in a way that fits their question if they actually had a question. Yeah. There's there's good research in that area, but again, we have no good evidence that that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_02 11:02

It's entertaining. I won't I won't lie to you. It's especially when they go out of the graveyard at night. But the I think the thing that comes back is like they say some things that are accurate and things that don't make sense. So it's kind of like a little bit believable in that sense. Again, entertaining nonetheless. So going back to the back in time to the 70s, like what was your first case? What what did you what would you call what were you called out for?

SPEAKER_00 11:28

So we um as a as a grad student, the graduate parapsychology program at John F. Kennedy University here in Northern California, which doesn't exist anymore, uh hasn't since the late the program hasn't existed since the late 80s, and the university has been folded into another one, different university. But we were getting calls because basically there were only a few organizations around the country that anyone knew about where folks like parapsychologists would be able to do investigations. So our professor, John Palmer, sent myself and another student out on a case in uh in northern part of I guess it's about an hour north of San Francisco, a town called Petaluma. And it was uh an older house. The house had been built in the early 20th century. Uh the family had lived there for a few decades, but apparently for for a couple years, there were physical object movements happening, and the mother was occasionally mainly there was a couple other witnesses occasionally, but was seeing a the image of a guy in black armor, like medieval armor, standing at the foot of her bed.

SPEAKER_02 12:35

Is this the black knight case? You were referring to the case.

SPEAKER_00 12:37

This is the black knight case, yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

I'll cross that off because I was gonna I was gonna mention that. So you beat me to it. That's all good. So I'm intrigued, buddy. So let's let's let's go.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

And you know, the thing about this case was it started out because we had physical object movement uh as the main feature here. We were thinking about this being truly a poltergeist case, which is what it ended up being, a case of someone, usually it's a living person in the household who's causing things. And the stereotype, which was really fixed in people's minds by Stephen King, uh, and the movie Carrie, the book Carrie, is a teenage girl. And it happened that this was living in the house at the time, was a mother and her 16-year-old daughter. There were other family members, a couple older daughters who had moved out. Um there was a twin brother, uh fraternal twin brother of the girl who at the time was in juvenile hall because he was a bit of a juvenile delinquent and had been pulled in for vandalism and other stuff as well. So it was really the mother and daughter, and it was kind of the classic stress-related thing, but we had some really interesting eye-opening um things that came up as we were dealing with this particular case. Um we we Tom and I Tom Malone and I went once, we brought in brought two of our other student fellow students with us, uh, follow-up, and we also talked to the two older daughters. I talked to the counselor for the boy, somebody who was kind of working with the kid, uh, who once he found out his mom was telling everybody about this black knight, which he didn't even know about, by the way. Um, he was making all sorts of claims to try to get himself out of juvenile hall. Right. But was it what it turned out is that the mother thought the daughters, all three of them, had seen the black knight multiple times, because she had. Umly the 16-year-old had seen the black knight twice, essentially. Okay. Um the mother also saw that there was one time, and this was the reason she called us, that the visor of the knight's helmet was up, and she's she said it was her son's face, and that freaked her out.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Um, we found actually Tom and I, the first trip, we found really going through the house because we always look for normal explanations for physical things that happen. Sure. And we even looked under the house, there was a crawl space under the house, and lo and behold, we find under the under the house a toy shield, a toy sword, a bow and arrow. The kid apparently liked to play with that stuff as a kid. I mean, I had stuff like that when I was a kid too. Sure. And that sort of tied directly to the black knight image. And I should mention that um this was 1979. The mother said that um under other circumstances, had she, you know, she had not seen Star Wars first uh before calling us, because she saw the Black Knight before Star Wars, but after seeing Star Wars, she said it looked like Darth Vader to some extent. That armor.

SPEAKER_02 15:37

And that's what we were talking about in the emails. And you also said the Vader case, and you were you're saying, Oh, I'm not sure what you mean by that, and I was did a bit more recently.

SPEAKER_00 15:44

Yeah, I didn't the in the email because you were pulling it from an article that was about me and not or about my book, but not yeah, sure. Um, so what was really going on as we found out, is digging into the case, but that the poltergeist agent, so we typically find someone who is under stress of some kind, and putting out that energy is that it was it was the mother, not the daughter, that was doing it. And the image that she was conjuring up for herself was, according to many psychologists, an archetype, a Jungian archetype. The black knight's a very common image, the shadow figure that's there. In fact, George Lucas designed Darth Ritt, you know, had uh design for Darth Vader based on this archetype of the Black Knight.

SPEAKER_02 16:27

Okay. There you go. Interesting, very interesting. So when with uh uh poltergeist you call that a polterglass, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:36

Yeah, yeah. I mean the the proper name is recurrent spontaneous psychokinesis or RSPK, but everybody calls them poltergeist cases.

SPEAKER_02 16:43

Okay. And are they the ones that move objects? Or is that apparatus?

SPEAKER_00 16:49

Um well, you know, the phenomena in poltergeist cases can be movement of objects, can be breaking of things, things flying across the room, a lot of electronic disturbances, although you don't find all of these things in this in each of the same cases. But they're they're usually patterns, and the patterns are very telling for what's going on in the family. Um, you know, kind of a metaphor, a story in some respects, and kind of help, once you really dig in, really help you determine what's really going on.

SPEAKER_02 17:18

And with these families or if they're going through stress and whatnot, say it's a poltergeist case, do is it recorded that the families see things moving together or just on one occurrence by themselves?

SPEAKER_00 17:33

It's usually well, first of all, there most of the phenomena happens around one person or when one person's present, but sometimes the triggers can be the entire family. Um people, yeah, sometimes there are multiple witnesses very often. These are physical objects. So the question is, did you were you looking in the right direction? I mean, if something something moves uh across the table, if someone's back is to the table, they're obviously not going to see that. Whereas somebody who's facing the table will see it. And we have cases, um, I've certainly had cases where multiple people have witnessed the activity that was going on.

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Okay. Because my wife and I in the house that we're currently in, we've been here for 10 years, and I won't go into full detail about some of the things that have happened to us here because they're a bit hectic. But some of the things that did happen, we had to get basically two shamans to come out and bless the place or clear the place, if that makes sense. So look the case that we saw or what we saw together, there was a plant. This was just after our first son was born. There was a plant downstairs in the main lounge room. Now, this plant was in the back right hand corner. My wife and I saw this multiple times. And again, I'm skeptical, right? So this plant was in the corner, it was there was no air con, windows weren't open, and on multiple occasions we saw the plant basically look like the leaves were being pulled like that. And there was nothing there was nothing around. Now I again I went and checked the plant species. Went and checked if there was any bugs or anything like that in the potty mix. Something just to debunk it. But there was nothing that I could find on the species, there was nothing in the in the uh pot. Uh we both definitely saw it because we'd see it, it wouldn't happen all the time, but we'd see it, you know, when we're watching TV at night and stuff like that. So her mum passed away in 2021. So again, I don't know whether that was had to do with that, I'm not entirely sure, but it's definitely something that we both saw. I didn't catch it on film, but it just when we we're talking about these cases, it just kind of piques my memory about what we experience here in the house. Nothing's happened since the second shaman cleared the place. So it's I thought I'd just raise that with you and let you know, see what your thoughts are.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

Yeah, well, I mean, typically we when we have physical stuff happening, we do look for the the living person as the agent, but um there are also cases, apparition cases, seemingly consciousness after death, so ghost, you might say, who is who is actually interesting enough, learned to do that, to move things, to affect things. Uh, it's really rare when because people do report apparitional encounters with family and and loved ones shortly after death, even if they didn't know the person died. But it's rare for someone it it does happen, but it's rare for someone to be seen years later or to stick around. And it's even rarer for physical activity to happen because of that consciousness, that entity that's there, that person that's stuck around. But it does happen. We have a a bar restaurant uh about an hour and a half east of San Francisco uh in the town of Tracy called the Banta Inn. And uh I haven't been there in a number of years, but I did a lot of work there in the late 80s into the early 90s, and there was physical stuff happening. First of all, there was an apparition that was not only seen, but one of the owners of the time, um he was a part-time Alameda sheriff's deputy, and he actually got pictures of the guy that some some of them thought he was. And when people would come into the restaurant and remark about the ghosts, because there was a particular thing that was going on where the guy was behaving in a certain way, um, he would show them pictures. And it was there was one picture of the actual guy, Tony Guken, a bunch of other pictures of people at the same age. Everybody picked out Tony from the pictures. So it was like a mug book in that respect. Their physical activity, everybody saw if they were there. In fact, um there were physicists from the local uh national laboratories, Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory that I talked to, who would occasionally come for lunch, and one of them basically said, Yeah, we come to lunch, it's pretty close, the food's good, and we get to see a show. The ghost was sometimes moving things for people at lunch and would do things with the CD. It just was it was very humorous, and I saw actually we saw myself the folks with me uh had a Japanese TV crew with me at one the first one of the first times I went there. We caught a couple things on camera. I mean, there it's just really kind of a fun thing, and obviously it's because the guy who's there used to be the bartender manager owner of the place, and he entertained people.

SPEAKER_02 22:16

There you go. Very, very interesting. So, next point when I talk about prof is the media problem with basically fear-based entertainment. Like I growing up, so I'm an 85 baby, right? So I'm 41 now. So I think growing up, we came across I think the first like paranormal stuff that I used to watch and used to scare the crap out of me was Unsolved Mysteries. Now were you on that show back in the day? A couple times. Couple times. How many times was a couple? Like you were a regular guest or uh two.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

I think it was two times. Okay. That's alright. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:52

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 22:53

That's it should have been three, but I got cut out of uh an episode because I refused to say that there was a demon in the house.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

So really storing itself. Yeah, right. I I bet. I bet. Was that when was the host Robert Stack? Was that his name?

SPEAKER_00 23:08

Robert Stack was, yeah. But you know, he the hosts of those shows, like William Shatner hosts some unexplained stuff, they're not actually involved in the field pieces themselves. They're yeah, they're just in studio doing that. Yeah. But that was Robert Stack for many years.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

Yeah, that guy's the way he spoke was haunting in itself. So um so you're on the show. So what again, so and then fast forward, I think it was like the early 2000s, maybe late 90s, when I I personally started to see the the paranormal shows come on where you've got your you know your night vision goggles and all that stuff and your jump scares. Like what's you probably look at that stuff and just see right through it, yeah, I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_00 23:49

It is hopefully it's entertaining to people. Um it's boring as hell to me and it annoys me because there are so many things that they have. First of all, they've made equipment the center of the shows.

SPEAKER_01 24:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:03

And they make claims about equipment, as do many other ghost hunters. There literally is no equipment that can detect ghosts for sure, because you can't build something that does that since we don't know what they're made of, since we don't know what how you know the communication process. None of that's a physical thing in that way. Um, but the night, the nighttime thing, you know, if there had never been night shot cameras, there would not be ghost hunting shows with people in the dark. It just makes it look spooky. Yeah, of course. I I grew up in the TV industry. My dad was a producer, my uncle was a director uh for a couple of major networks, and I have my brothers are in the industry at this point. Um I've been behind the scenes of all sorts of television programs growing up, and I know how these shows are made, and and actually I've I've been involved in a lot and some of these, not the ghost hunting shows so much, but some other shows doing ghost hunting segments. And the thing that people have to realize is that those shows' purpose is to get ratings, to get eyes on them and to continue that to sell advertising and to make money, essentially. Um, so whatever they can do to make it spooky, to make it uh enticing for people who are fans of that sort of thing, is what they're actually going to do with that. And the other thing is that even the the people on the show, until maybe they've been there a while and they have some some actual power, they become producers or something. The editing's not done by them, the editing is done in a way that is whatever the producers, production companies, or network decides should be the storyline for the show.

SPEAKER_02 25:41

Okay. Very interesting. Interesting stuff. So, next point I want to talk about is real haunting versus hoaxes. So I really wanted to get your thoughts on the Ammonyville horror case. And so that there was two two incidences there, is that right? The original and then the family that moved in afterwards, is that correct? Or is that just the just again, you know?

SPEAKER_00 26:06

Just the original family. Yeah, no, the people who moved the people who the only incident the people who moved in after them had was because of the movie, especially. Um, there were people like tourists coming and trying to find the house.

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

So the town apparently changed the numbering of the uh and of the street so that they wouldn't be able to see the house. And actually the I think the subsequent owners did some changes on the outside of the house as well. But it was mainly the Lutz family.

SPEAKER_02 26:35

Uh yeah, okay. So it's a pretty distinct looking house. So it's it's still standing, I'd imagine.

SPEAKER_00 26:42

Yes, it is. Yeah, I don't think it looks any I haven't been there um in ages, but from what I understand and pictures I've seen, it's they've changed the outside of the house quite a bit.

SPEAKER_02 26:51

Okay. So you've been you've actually been through the house?

SPEAKER_00 26:54

No, not through the house, no. Okay. But I've been yeah, down the street.

SPEAKER_02 26:59

Yeah. Okay. So there was so other than what happened with the the massacre there, there was no real haunting after that. Is that correct?

SPEAKER_00 27:06

So um it's possible. I mean, I understand uh one of the kids is talking about some other experiences they had. Nothing like what was in the book. I'll just say that.

unknown 27:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

There was Ronald DeFeo massacred his family.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Um they got the house, Lutz's bought the house in a really good deal. Apparently, the attorney suggested that maybe you know they could do something with the house being haunted. And there the things that were in the book are either they came from the Lutz's, but I suspect that a lot of it also came from Jay Anson, who wrote the book, who never once went to the house. I mean, they would it be they were interviewed at his hotel, his hotel room in New York City. So there was there was a lot of hoop hoopla that was going on. Also, the place was not investigated when they were living there. It was only after they moved out. They were there a short amount of time. I would, because of the murders, and I would suspect, and and it's it's perfectly normal that people live going into that house would feel real negative vibes, you might say. I mean, everybody, we've all experienced this. You go house hunting and some places feel bad and some people places feel good. Yeah, it's because we're picking up emotion, you might say, that's imprinted in the place. And places where there's a murder, you know, highly emotional murder like that can be picked up unconsciously by us. So that I have no problem with. All this other stuff, the flies and the green stuff come down, all that stuff didn't happen. In fact, there were a number of factual errors in the book, even about what was going on. Um, there's some some scene in the book where the family saw like a pig demon out in the yard by the light of the full moon, but they weren't living there when the moon was full.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Right.

SPEAKER_00 28:55

So there's there's a whole bunch of issues with the book. And then a couple of my colleagues, um, when I started in the field of parapsychology, I worked at the American Society for Psychical Research, the research director, Dr. Carlos Osis, and the psychic uh who was being worked with, um, there was a research going on on out-of-body experience, a guy by the name of Alex Tannis, who absolutely, I can tell you from personal witnessing, was consulted by police again and again and again. Law enforcement came into the ASPR every time he was in town. Um, so Alex and Dr. Osis were called, were asked to come and take a look at the house, as were others, uh, after the family moved out. And Alex, being someone who's familiar with picking up information about murders and thefts and things like that for the police, he he got a good sense of what had actually happened. And some of that was, of course, you could say a speculation, but there were issues, evidence that came out later on that that was confirmed some of what Alex picked up. The most important thing that happened is as they are um downstairs, is that Dr. Osus says that Alex was drawn over to this one bureau in, I think in the dining room and opens a couple drawers, which, you know, that's kind of I mean, the people had moved out, they left their stuff there, so he was opening drawers and he finds a book contract. And this is only a few weeks, it's a couple weeks after they moved out. So they already had a book contract, apparently.

SPEAKER_01 30:28

Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:29

Which is highly suspicious. And as they are at that point, um, when Osus sees this, they decide we're gonna get out of here. This is there's there's nothing going on here other than the imprint of the murder. And um, as they're going out there, uh Ed and Lorraine Warren come in with a TV crew and it turns into a circus at that point.

SPEAKER_02 30:51

And that was gonna be my next next point about them. So did they were they the ones that took the photo of the young boy in the house? Was that them or was that somebody else?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

I I don't know. I don't know about about that. And and uh, you know, I know vaguely about that photo, but it doesn't mean anything.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

So how about that? A deep dive into the paranormal. We're halfway through the interview and quite timely as well. So a reminder that DMR is part of the Audible Creators program. So what does that mean for you, the listener or the viewer? Well, there's a link in my show. You can jump on that link, it will take you over to Audible, and you can start a 30-day free trial. That's right, 30 days for free, and two of Professor Albach's titles are available for you to choose from on Audible. They are basically called Afterlife and also Near Death. So your choice of one of those titles, I'm sure you will not be disappointed. He co-authored those two books. So again, jump on that link, it will take you over to Audible. You'll be supporting DMR terms and conditions do apply if you sick around past the 30 days, but you can listen to some of Professor Auerbach's work. It's gonna be absolutely amazing, no doubt. Yeah, okay. And what are your thoughts around the Warrens? Because they were very active in the 70s and 80s, so this would have just been when you were kicking off with your career in parapsychology, right?

SPEAKER_00 32:33

Right. And um I the problem with the Warrens is that they had a particular perspective, and that was that there was demonic energy, demons, and all sorts of stuff, evil stuff, every place they went. Um we had when I was at the ASPR, I ended up talking to a a psychotherapist in Connecticut in in the next town over from the Warrens, who ended up following up on cases uh that the Warrens had been to where the Warrens had basically traumatized the families.

SPEAKER_02 33:11

Oh, right.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

And they she was working with them. Beyond that, I know of one case because I actually was involved in it in trying to find out what was going on. This couple said they had weird music playing every once in a while and they couldn't figure out where it was coming from. And the Warrens said it was demonic. They came and said, So when I went up there, I found a radio, an AMFM radio, a small one that had fallen behind a radiator, and occasionally it was turning on. There wasn't there was nothing paranormal happening in the house at all. It had a normal explanation.

SPEAKER_02 33:45

Just false.

SPEAKER_00 33:46

So when you have a couple, you know, have people who constantly find evil and demons and things like that. Um there were some other things that came up over the years that I learned about from some of their clients that you know really concerned me. And then later on in they made some claims. I mean, they made claims about the Amityville house, they made claims about other things. Later in life, Lorraine made some claims about the Amityville case connecting it to parapsychology, which had not was which actually did not happen at all. So and I suspect it was because she was getting on in years and maybe you know forgetting some things. But um when we look at the Warren's cases, they don't hold up. Um there was another situation. I had talked to several reporters about this. I had a friend who worked for NBC Radio, and he had called me because the Ed Warren had held a press conference. There was a case in I think it was a kid the case in Pennsylvania, um, which turned out to be not a demon, but he's they said it was a demon, and he claimed he calls a press conference because he has video footage of the demon. And at the press conference, he's talking about the case and the demon and the video, and some reporter, and I I talk again, I talked to several reporters who were there, some reporter said, Let's see the video. And he stops for a minute, he says, I can't show you the video because I sent the tape to the Vatican for analysis.

SPEAKER_01 35:16

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:18

So, you know, you didn't keep a copy? I mean, that was Yeah, exactly. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, you know.

SPEAKER_02 35:27

Okay. And with all I don't imagine I know the answer to this, but you're familiar with all the Warren's museum with all the apparently haunted artifacts and all that. Yeah. Are you are you are you following the case of the doll?

SPEAKER_00 35:43

I know a little bit about the Annabelle doll. If you know, it's here's the the the thing is that the reason I have when we talk about hauntings, residual hauntings, you know, you're talking about an imprint, information that's in the in the environment. It is neutral in the sense that um it's like a recording. It could be a horror film, it could be a comedy film, but it's neutral. We pick up whatever the events were, and some of us are sensitive enough psychically, we all have a little ESP, to play that back in our heads. Sometimes it comes out as an emotion, sometimes it comes out actually as almost a full visual for us. But again, it's playing out in our heads, essentially. And a house is a big object. Um, smaller objects hold information too. There is an ability or an application of ESP called psychometry. It's actually not that hard for people to learn, uh, and that is you hold an object and you are able to pick up information about where it's been, potentially who owned it, things like that. So if the doll was around when something negative happened, sure, it could have picked up some negative information that people might be sensitive to. But it's not, it doesn't have a ghost, it doesn't have a personality, it's it's not inhabited by something other than potentially information. And at this point, it's moved around so much that I I would say there's probably nothing to it at all. Um, because we do know that even in the most haunted places, act new activity kind of imprints over, records over what's there.

SPEAKER_02 37:20

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

So you you take a haunted object, you take it around, you take it to parties, show to people, all of a sudden the doll's feeling pretty good.

SPEAKER_02 37:28

You've it's lost its mojo.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:32

So that leads me on the next point. And hauntings versus mental health. And probably a good case to bring up would be the the choking ghost case.

SPEAKER_00 37:43

Yeah, that was a poltergeist, that was actually a poltergeist case, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:47

So why don't you what are you looking why don't you tell the viewers exactly what happened? I'll read the case file, but I'll I want to hear it from you.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

Yeah, and I and I will say a couple things. You know, we have we are having kind of a lot of discussion right now about a branch of parapsychology called clinical parapsychology.

unknown 38:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

Because these experiences can cause people to have have a little bit of trauma or almost PTSD afterwards. Uh even if it's a even if it's an explainable experience, you know, even if you debunk it, the the thought or belief that these people had that this was something ghostly can affect them psychologically. All right, so that's a that's one thing. Um so the choking ghost case happened in the early days of our parapsychology program when I was there around 1985, and we get a call from a woman who claimed that she was being choked, not to death, obviously, but choked and sometimes lifted off the ground by this big, shadowy, almost bear-like shadow figure that nobody else could see. So we had her come into the to the um the university first to talk to us. Uh, she brought a coworker. She was an ex-cop. She had been a cop in San Francisco for 10 years. After she her divorce, she moved to Alaska, was a cop there, came back after a few years to live in the Bay Area again, um, and she was working in high-tech security, so she still carried a gun with other ex-cops or ex-military police. The she comes into the office with her coworker, who she says is a witness, takes off a scarf, and she's got these bruises, like four fingers on one side and one on the other. Uh, my colleague Sharon Frankmont says first thing she said right away was, Do you have a boyfriend? Because we were concerned about there being a normal explanation for this as well. Um, she said that the the other co-workers happened to see her after she was attacked and screened. They saw her lifted off the ground, and they because they came, it chased it away. I turned to the coworker, he said, Well, we saw her, her feet were already on the ground, she was against the wall, she was sliding down to the floor. We did not see her off the floor, but we did see the bruising appear on her throat when there was no apparent cause.

SPEAKER_01 40:01

That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 40:02

So Sharon and I went out to where she was living. She had been in the Bay Area for six months. She was living with her mother in a um just staying there until she got on her feet. Um, and as we're talking, um, Sharon is talking to the mother, um, have they have she have they have their backs to uh a window that goes looks out over the ocean. I'm watching the woman in the go into the kitchen, she asks if we want any a glass of water. I said no. Sharon says no. She pours, starts pouring herself a glass of water. She turns, puts it down, turns around, walks over to the hallway, looks down toward the front door, which I can see. Nothing's there. Walks back to this to the sink, does the same thing one more time, walks back over to the sink. And of course, at that point, you know, if this was a movie, we'd be hearing that spooky music, right? This is when something like, you know, the exorcist music would start. Yeah. So I was already ready to get out of my chair. And as it happens, she puts the glass down, she turns around, she screams, puts her hands up like this, and starts falling backwards. But because I was prepared, watching her closely, I caught her before she hit the ground. Her hands never touched her throat. Her throat bulged out like a bullfrog's, and then there were four depressions on one side and one on the other. Sharon came running over, the mother came running over, and uh Sharon was a psychologist, but also a very good psychic, too. And she looks at me and is shaking her head because she's not picking anything up. And at that point, I basically became a New Yorker again and used some choice words to tell whatever it was to go away. Um and then and then it stopped. I mean, it stopped immediately, which was amazing to me. Uh so I said, you know, so I yelled at it again, said, okay, you'll never bother her again. I figured why not go for broke. So we get her up, we sit her down. Her mother then says, Um, you know, we we calm her down, mother makes a comment, says, you know, you probably should tell them about the nightmares you're having and the therapist you're seeing. It's like, what are you talking about? Turn out that shortly after she moved back to the Bay Area, and her 16-year-old son came to visit a couple times and stayed with them, she started having recovered memories of her father molesting her as a child. He'd been dead for years.

SPEAKER_02 42:19

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 42:20

Um, she was seeing a therapist for these nightmares. You know, those kinds of recovered memories do happen to people in their 30s. Um, it can be very traumatic. And she was seeing the therapist. Um, talking to Sharon was able to talk psychologist to psychologist with a fan with the woman's permission about this situation. And the therapist was shocked to find out that there were these attacks because she never said anything about the attacks to the therapist. Um, she always wore scarves, and the therapist said, I wondered why she always wore scarves in here. And between the two of them and what we learned in that interview, also, we figured out that there, we even figured out the trigger for the memories that she was having, a family trigger. And this was her way, because the attacks usually happened either right before or right after she went to see the therapist. With a rare exception. One of the exceptions was this was when she was with her work co-workers. Um, as if her unconscious is saying, You can't talk about your father like that. And so she was being punished by herself. This was an effect on her own body. She caused that effect.

SPEAKER_02 43:27

So she physically manifested what you saw in her throat. That's the pair of the mon. Is that what you see? Is that exactly what you're saying?

SPEAKER_00 43:35

That is the power of the bind. There are um very highly suggestible people under hypnosis. There have been examples of this in the literature. I got a friend of mine who teaches hypnotherapy, and they've had a couple people that can do this. You tell you tell them under deep hypnosis, again, they have to be highly suggestible, that a pen is a red hot iron poker, and you touch their skin and they get a blister.

SPEAKER_02 44:00

Yeah. So is that a f are you saying that her was like almost like a form of self-hypnosis to a degree?

SPEAKER_00 44:08

It's a form of psychosomatic effect. I mean her mind, you know, this shows our effect of our minds on our own bodies. That we can affect negative or positive effects. I mean, we always talk about the placebo effect. You hear about that all the time.

SPEAKER_02 44:25

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 44:25

And sometimes the placebo effect is real. In other words, it causes actual healing in the body, even though there's no no medication, because the mind believes that there's an effect on the body. There's also a nocebo effect. And the nocebo effect is what she was experiencing. That belief that this could cause this generated this kind of effect in her own body.

SPEAKER_02 44:47

Okay, yeah, positive and negative. Got it. Okay. Because when when I read that case, it reminded me of a film. Have you seen the movie Split?

SPEAKER_00 44:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 44:57

With James McAvoy, where he's got the 23 different personalities.

SPEAKER_00 45:00

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:01

So, spoiler alert for anyone that hasn't seen it, so the 23 or the 22 personalities are all uh looking to this one that's called the beast at the end of the movie. And it reveals itself. And it's that self-belief, it's almost like a ultra placebo effect where this beast character is basically indestructible. And at the end of the film, or towards the end of the film, he believes in it so much that he can climb walls, and he actually when the shotguns are shot at him, the bullets don't bounce off him, they still injure him, but they don't go through him. And it's all because the the 23 personalities have merged towards this one thing, and it's just this absolute ultra-premium belief that this beast is the be all, end all is indestructible. So that's what when you when I read that case, it kind of reminded me of a little bit to that degree that the if the mind is that powerful, you know what I mean, what can it achieve?

SPEAKER_00 46:06

Well, you know, human beings, um, our society, we set limitations on ourselves.

SPEAKER_01 46:11

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 46:12

We're constantly doing that. And um in so many different ways. Um my father was a sports producer, and I got to talk to a lot of professional athletes about some unusual experiences they had when they were you know in the so-called zone, they were in the zone mentally, things that were happening that they didn't think they could achieve. Um, if you look back in the history of um of running, in 1954, a guy named Roger Bannister ran the four-minute mile, even though physiologists said that that was not possible for a human being to achieve that speed. Yet dozens of people did it over the next couple of years because he showed it was possible. We limit ourselves.

SPEAKER_02 46:53

Interesting, very, very interesting. So, next point, and I'm conscious of time because I know it's uh getting late over there. So, next one. Um, the difference between apparitions, ghosts, or poltergeist, and demons. So I guess from your point of view, we might have covered off in this a little bit, but when does the when does the parapsychologist get the phone call? And when does the church or the priests get a phone call?

SPEAKER_00 47:20

Well, the church church, the church might get a phone call or a priest might get a a consult when the people believe that what's going on is demonic.

unknown 47:30

Right.

SPEAKER_00 47:30

Or when that they are told that it is demonic. So for example, I know of cases because I've had a f I've got follow-up calls with them for clients, people were had it ghost hunters, uh, local ghost hunters come in, and because they got on their voice recorder um what sounded like a growl, they immediately said the house has a demon in it, even though the people were not experiencing anything negative at all. Um so when people think they have something demonic or are told that something evil is there, they might call the church. That is if they have any any religious belief at all. People call the Catholic Church without being Catholic. This is that's a factor I think of because of the movies for that. Um people call parapsychologists when they have an experience and they know that there are such things as parapsychologists, and then either they find from friends, they get referrals from friends, or they start looking on the internet, and hopefully they hit one of the research organizations that do still exist uh that does research in psychic phenomena that covers these kinds of things. Um we get cases to the parapsychological association, to the Ryan Research Center. There's uh the division of perceptual studies at the University of Virginia that does research on apparitions and out-of-body experiences and reincarnate reincarnation and other things. I'm easy to find as well. Uh, but then most often I think people end up finding the low-hanging fruit, which are the hobbyists or amateur ghost hunters who don't know much bet about the field.

SPEAKER_02 48:59

Yeah. Yeah, okay. So I'm I'd imagine are you most of your work, is it just been in the States or have you traveled abroad for cases?

SPEAKER_00 49:10

I've done I've done a little bit abroad, um, mainly because and it's been very little. I mean, Japan, it's because of television, actually. Japanese a Japanese TV show, uh TV company was doing some work with a Japanese medium named Iko Gibo. And actually, after we went to a few places here in the States, they came over, we ended up going to, as it happens, to Australia. We went up to Darwin and into Arnhem Land and even did uh a remote viewing experiment and a couple of other experiments with one of the Aboriginal artists that was there with Mrs. Gibo. Okay. So I spent about a week there. Uh been to Japan and then also very, very brief piece to England, but most of my work has been in the US in general.

SPEAKER_02 49:52

What would you say in terms of a s like a state? Not stuff that you've worked on, but just in general, what's probably the most prone state for haunting cases? Would you have one off the top of your head?

SPEAKER_00 50:05

Or I can't say that there's a particular state. Um I'd say that there are more reports uh from states on the east coast of the United States than on than middle the, you know, or the west, partly because there's a lot more history that people know about. Um you know, a lot more settled people were settled kind of coming west. But there are places, older places in California as well. Um there are places that towns that claim to be the most haunted. Savannah, Georgia is one of them. Yep. Uh but there are several other places that claim that we have more. So, you know, you can't really unless you get a population count and a count of the ghosts and the hauntings, and then do a kind of a percentage, you can't really say that you're the most haunted in those places.

SPEAKER_02 50:53

Sure. I've seen a fair few um videos on on social media, especially the states around where the Civil War was.

SPEAKER_00 51:02

Yeah, Gettysburg. Gettysburg Battlefield, which actually does. Yeah, I mean, that does have an incredible based on all the witnesses over the years. I mean, I've heard from witnesses since the 80s, um, it has an incredible imprint, but it is an imprint, not actual ghosts that are there.

SPEAKER_02 51:17

Sure. Okay. Interesting stuff. And the one um the case with the the Navy vessel that you were involved with.

SPEAKER_00 51:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:26

Tell me about that.

SPEAKER_00 51:26

So yeah, so if you were to ask me what's the most haunted place that I've ever been to, I'd say it's the USS Hornet Aircraft Carrier Museum, which was um a World War II carrier that was launched in 1943 after the previous USS Hornet, the C V 8, was sunk at the Battle of Midway. And the ship has a really good stellar history. It was the lead ship in the Pacific Fleet. It's the ship that picked up Apollo 11 and 12 before it was decommissioned in 1970. And uh it spent a lot of time at various shipyards, eventually was brought down to the Bay Area for the closure of the base in 95, 1995. And it was at that point um a foundation saved it and wanted to open it as a museum, and they sat started having people, volunteers, cleaning the ship up. A lot of lead paint and asbestos and stuff like that. So they had a lot of cleanup to do.

SPEAKER_02 52:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:19

The l the people who were living aboard at that time to clean it up, and people who were coming aboard on the from the foundation were experiencing seeing officers as well as enlisted men, so sailors and officers, non-commissioned officers. There was a um there were a couple of other individuals who were aboard the ship as well, uh, one of just who were associated with the ship. But by def by description, as I we I Scott got involved in 1990, late 98, early 99. I spent a lot of time there because a psychic had been called aboard to try to talk to a Japanese ghost that was seen in the brig, who was who apparently people were saying he was a kamikaze pilot uh who was captured, not he didn't crash into the ship. And he then killed himself in the ship in the brig, and apparently was still there. So they did a they brought in a Japanese priest, um, I think a a Buddhist mu Buddhist monk to do a ritual, and that was gone. But they were still seeing the sailors and officers, and we have a lot of witnesses on record who were working in the foundation, who were volunteers, many of whom were ex-Navy, uh, some of whom didn't believe in ghosts, but they still saw these guys and the guys disappeared, that kind of thing. And based on descriptive information, there's at least somewhere around 50 or 60 different apparitions that have been seen, both sailors, officers, non-commissioned officers, and so on throughout the ship.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

Interesting. Very, very interesting.

SPEAKER_00 53:55

And I should mention that these are not these are not guys who died aboard the ship, generally. Okay, so this is an important distinction. Yeah. Um one of the one of the most prominent ghosts was uh ended up dying in retirement. He was Rear Admiral Jocko Clark, JJ Clark. He served aboard the ship during World War II as a commander, but he did not die on the ship. In fact, the couple of apparitions that had been identified, because people happened they were high profile, so they knew the faces they were able to get pictures, didn't uh die aboard the ship. In fact, that ship had fewer deaths on it than any ship in the Navy during World War II. It also never was struck by by enemy fire at all for that. Really?

SPEAKER_02 54:40

So you're saying that they're they were that involved with the ship that when they passed, apparently the imprint went back to the ship?

SPEAKER_00 54:47

Is that where you you're trying to their consciousness went back to the ship because the ship needed that, needed to be saved, more or less.

SPEAKER_02 54:54

There you go. Wow. Yeah, that's what that's wild. Very cool, very cool stuff. And last couple of questions. So you don't have to answer the top five, but what do you feel are the most realistic ghost films out there? There's a hell of a lot of them. There's a stack of the conjuring movies as well. Like those nothing.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

I'd say they really the the closest, which is still an exaggeration, um, are films like The Haunting, the original Haunting by Robert Weiss as the director. And the other would be The Legend of Hellhouse. Uh, because Richard Matheson, who wrote that book and the screenplay, was incredibly knowledgeable about the field of parapsychology. Um, The Haunting, the original Haunting, had a parapsychologist named Nandor Fodor, who was the consultant on the film. Um, the one that's the closest to what people report about ghosts, even though there was still some dramatic license taken, is the movie Ghost with Patrick Swayze. But I'd say that based on people's experiences of ghosts, comedies and dramas are closer than any horror film you'll ever see.

SPEAKER_02 56:03

There you go. I remember saying ghosts when I was a kid, like in the early, I think it's 1990, it came out. And that when the the bad guy in the movie gets taken away by the dark spirits.

SPEAKER_00 56:14

Yeah, that's that's not ever been reported, but it's a good device.

SPEAKER_02 56:18

Sure, sure. It scared me as a kid. So good stuff. And so you've been doing this for 46 years, so you've written a number of books as well. So how many books have you written?

SPEAKER_00 56:27

Is it um written or co-written, nine books, uh nonfiction books in the paranormal.

SPEAKER_02 56:32

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Um, this is this is the most recent paranormal case book.

SPEAKER_02 56:36

When did that one come out, Lloyd?

SPEAKER_00 56:38

This one came out in the second edition in 24, 2024. And um I've I've also um they're not all ghost books. Um they're one of the one of the other books which is still available, is called ESP Wars, East and West.

SPEAKER_01 56:51

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 56:52

And I'm a co-author on that. The this is the history of the Stargate program, um, as well as the Russian side of the remote viewing story. They the Russians provided that information to um the other authors. Uh, the main author is Ed May, Edwin C. May, who was the program director for the remote viewing program for 11 years.

SPEAKER_02 57:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Who's a good friend of mine. Yeah, but I've also co-authored a couple of paranormal mystery novels too.

SPEAKER_02 57:16

Nice. Keep you busy. Any more in the uh in the works?

SPEAKER_00 57:20

Yeah, well, right now I am just readying um a book that went out of print, my mind ever matter book for a new publication. I'm adding some material to it uh with a new publisher, and then I'm working on uh updating my first book, which is ESP Hauntings and Poltergeist with some new material because it's gonna be the 40th anniversary edition this year.

SPEAKER_02 57:39

Okay. That's cool. And what is a couple others, yeah. What does Professor Albeck's schedule look like through the wake log? Yeah, how busy day they says.

SPEAKER_00 57:50

I'll be I'll be totally upfront and honest because anybody can find this out about me. I have a day job, and that's because one cannot make a lot of money in parapsychology unless you have grants and other things.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Sure.

SPEAKER_00 58:01

So I teach the courses I teach are in the evenings and I do things on weekends and evenings. But I work for a company called Lexus Nexus, which is an online legal news and cut and uh company financial information service, and I work actually work with law librarians for the most part. So during the week I'm doing webinars, um, but we do work, we're doing a lot of AI. So I'm very fortunate because I have access to an incredible news database as well as to multiple AI products, and I'm really applying them to some of my work in parapsychology.

SPEAKER_02 58:32

Very good, very good. Well, Professor Auerlbach, it's almost an hour. Thank you for coming on the show and DMA. Much appreciated. Be sending this out to Spotify, YouTube, doing some shorter cuts or edits on TikTok as well. So it's good. You've educated me, and I'm sure the the masses out there that will see this are gonna be really in tune to what parapsychology is, because as I said to you, like Australia, it's not too well known, so it's good, got a bit of education, yeah. So thank you, sir. Really appreciate it.

SPEAKER_00 59:03

You're very welcome. They can go to my website, which is just LloydHourback.com, and there's quite a bit of information there as well.

SPEAKER_02 59:09

Beautiful. I'll throw that in the descriptions in the Spotify and all that. Thank you, sir. Much appreciated.

SPEAKER_00 59:16

Thank you, cop.

SPEAKER_02 59:21

So there you have it, Professor Lloyd Hourback. So thank you, sir. We really do appreciate you coming on DMR for a very deep dive into the world of paranormal activity and paranormal investigation. So stay tuned over the next couple of weeks. We've got some fantastic guests coming up after this one. We've got a lead Hollywood FX gentleman that's gonna talk all about what it was like to work with some of the major stars over the last couple of decades. We've also got a leading cinematographer that has some very well-known movies that he has worked on. So, as always, leaders on the menji. You've just experienced DMR, the red carpet treatment. Now, get your ass to the movies.