Reimagining HR for Small Businesses with Kirsten Ziegler

What happens when an HR pro leaves the corporate grind to build a business rooted in ethics, empathy, and real talk? In this episode, I sit down with Kirsten Ziegler, an HR consultant who’s rewriting the rules of people management for small business owners. From navigating the difference between contractors and employees (without a legal headache) to building better hiring practices from the inside out, Kirsten breaks it all down in a way that’s clear, calm, and incredibly helpful.

Plus: Kirsten’s sharing a free job description template that’s as practical as it is thoughtful.

Whether you're building your first team or cleaning up some messy legacy systems, this conversation is here to remind you: HR doesn’t have to feel heavy—it can feel human.

Topics:

• Transitioning from Corporate to Entrepreneurship (3:35)
• The Role of HR in Small Businesses (7:54)
• Navigating Contractor vs. Employee Relationships (10:42)
• Hiring Practices and Avoiding Bias (19:01)

You can find Kirsten at:

Website: kdzhrconsulting.com

LinkedIn: /in/kirsten-zeigler-humanresources/

Mentioned in the episode:

Job Description Template

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Creative Commons / Attribution 3.0 Unported License (CC BY 3.0)

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Transcript

Jacki Hayes  00:04

Hey there. Welcome to Here's What I Learned. I'm Jacki Hayes, a system strategist, unapologetic, smutty romancy, lover, Dungeons and Dragons geek and your no-BSguide to building a business that works for you. This is the place where we swap stories, share lessons, and get real about the highs and lows of creating a life and business that actually feels good. No cookie cutter advice here, just honest conversations about what's working what's not, and how to rewrite the rules to fit your version of success. So grab your favorite beverage, get comfy, and let's dive in.

Jacki Hayes  00:41

Today on Here's What I Learned. I am talking with Kirsten Ziegler, and she helps female identifying small business owners build the culture of their dreams through consulting, workshops and projects. In working with her, they identify their business needs and create the right role, roles which allows them to hire the right people to grow their business in a way that's directly connected to their vision and their values. Thank you so much for being on the show today. Kirsten, what is something that you have been learning about lately?

Kirsten Ziegler  01:14

Something that I have been learning about? It's been a personal journey. Is doing things that make me feel joyful, as opposed to doing things I feel like I have to do. That was one of my I don't really do New Year's resolutions because, you know, I like to just operate in okay, this is something I'd like to do moving forward, just in general. No expiration date, but that's what I decided for myself to focus on for this coming year and hopefully forever. Easier said than done.

Jacki Hayes  01:47

What things have you found so far?

Kirsten Ziegler  01:51

I would say, you know, it's really interesting around projects or even like family obligations. This is where it comes up the most like family obligations and then work, those are the two areas. And so I have, you know, from a business perspective, have been trying not to offer help in areas where I actually don't want to more. In the past, I'm just like, I'll do anything, you know, and then be like, Oh, this doesn't feel good. It doesn't feel good in my gut. Like, I'm not an expert in this area. I'm really, like, pushing myself in ways that I don't even enjoy, and so that's something I'm paying attention to more, because, you know, you want to push yourself to do things outside of your comfort zone, but you can't continuously do that if it's not bringing you growth or joy. And then with family, you know, stuff, family obligations, it's more like potential, you know, where I'm like, what I can I have my own life. I can put my foot down every once in a while and not feel guilty. And so that's been a little more of a struggle to be honest. But you know, I really want to operate in a way where I just don't do things out of feeling bad, right? Like I'm doing this because I just feel so bad that I should so it's been interesting.

Jacki Hayes  03:18

That's one of those lifelong lessons that you would just never stop learning. 

Kirsten Ziegler  03:23

So definitely, and I think that, like, you know, last year, I was really burnt out from a variety personal professional and that's what kind of pushed me to this point. I am a recovering co dependent, so I just want everyone around me to be happy and thriving and so working hard to shift that this way a little. So

Jacki Hayes  03:46

it sounds to me like this lesson that you're trying to learn right now, in particular to your business, leads right into my next question, which is, when I say business your way, what does that mean to you?

Kirsten Ziegler  04:02

That is such a good question. So I, I, I'm gonna start from a while ago, but I promise I'll get to the point I was born on it. No, I, I have been in human resources for 13 years and never in my wildest dreams thought I would have my own business that was never like the overarching goal, it was just to do something that I liked, which was work with people. And I've always operated, and my core values are empathy, ethics and authenticity, and I've always operated out of that place, but through a series of different corporate jobs that I held, I found that I was really losing those elements of myself, and it was, you know, I almost didn't realize it until it just went too far in the wrong. Wrong direction. Working in companies, do you know, as a human resources professional, you're there to advocate for both the business and the employees equally, but if you don't have the right leadership team above you, you're not able to successfully do your job, at least to my standards, where it's you know, like supporting the people as well as the business. To me, it's a chicken or egg. You can't have one without the other. The business has to pay the people to do the job, and the people have to do the job in order for the business to make money. So they're important. It's important, right? And so, you know, my last gig in corporate, we were not aligned by any means. And, you know, I was trying my best to do what I thought was ethical, and they just, they wanted to check a box. And I was so fed up by that point that it led me to start my own business without even thinking about it. I was fueled on, like, you know, energy and a little bit of anger, tiny bit of spite, but a lot of excitement, you know, all mixed together, and I started my HR consulting business, and you know, to this day, you know, I live by those values still, which I'm now able to practice and work with leaders that feel similarly, right, like I don't want everyone to be carbon copy of me that I work with. I want different ideas and perspectives, but you have to be open. I don't work with people who aren't willing to treat their people like people and build equitable, thriving teams. Those are my only restrictions. I don't care what industry you're in, what size company, you know, and that's how I'm doing business, my way, by being able to be selective about who I support, and then, you know, really support them to my best ability. I

Jacki Hayes  06:59

know that a lot of us, especially those of us that have been in some form of corporate world. There's some people who have never had to, and I envy them, but HR is not about like, that's not the department you ever want to talk to it. 

Kirsten Ziegler  07:14

Yeah, so, but it shouldn't be that way, in my opinion. You know, like, as an HR person in a corporate setting, I was so lonely because no one wanted to, like, Come hang out, right? I wanted to talk to everybody like I wanted to know about everything that was going on with everybody's day to day, not to use against them, you know what I mean. And so there's, there's definitely a disconnect. And I think that some companies do it, right, you know, I'm not saying that they're, every company is like that, but, you know, unfortunately, the ones that I worked directly in, I didn't have such great experiences.

Jacki Hayes  07:56

So a lot of the listeners are solopreneurs or small business owners with, you know, small teams. They probably hear HR consultants or somebody who specializes in HR, and they're like, I'm never going to need to work with her. Um, why might they need to?

Kirsten Ziegler  08:12

Okay, so I always say, if you are thinking about even hiring your first employee, or you have employees, you need HR support. So you need to not only make sure that you're doing everything from a compliance standpoint, but that you're also hiring the right people and making sure those people stick around if if you want them to. You know you may not, but I find that businesses come to me when there's a crisis, and I always want to encourage people to be more proactive. So if you think about you know, you have an employee, but there's some struggles with them that you're feeling, there's tension from both sides. Things aren't getting done to your standards. And you know, I've seen a lot of times people come to me and say, I need to fire this person. And as we go through the conversations and dig into it more, a lot of times it can be solved, you know, with simple communication expectations. And so, you know, if there's ever a little bit of of doubt in your mind, or that feeling of like something's not right with it or going well with this person, reach out to an HR consultant immediately, because you can most likely just squash that issue in advance. You know that not all the time. Every situation is different, but I've also seen, you know, business owners with the purest and best of intentions, just not realize that they were supposed to be doing things. You know, every state has its own set of compliance laws, which makes it so hard and frustrating and so, you know, I've seen, you know, had a client once who had someone an employee. Least suing them because there wasn't they weren't being provided paid sick leave because the employer, it's not that they were trying to, you know, they would have, they just had no idea that that state required it. So it's definitely worth talking to an HR consultant or any HR professional if you're thinking about hiring at least one person, and I always recommend have an employee handbook in place one or more employees, because you're getting your standards right off the bat set there, you're making sure you're compliant, and it's an understanding to protect your employee and protect your business too. It works for for both parties. So I really think that having that document is super, super important.

Jacki Hayes  10:46

So a lot of folks in the online space, they work primarily with contractors and not employees. One of the things that I have experienced in the past, and I know I'm not the only one, is when the business owner doesn't understand the difference between a contractor and an employee, and so does, you know, oversteps the lines, doesn't realize it. And I know there are some situations where they've then gotten sued by a contractor because they were being treated like an employee. And then, if you're, you know, working with people remotely, it, you know, it's not just about where you live then, is my understanding as well. Yeah. So what are some of the misconceptions that a lot of like online business owners, have?

Kirsten Ziegler  11:29

Oh my gosh, these are the best points to bring up. Because this is, I talk to people about this all day long. I'm actually creating a course around this exact thing, because I've seen it becomes such a you know, it's an issue. Okay? So contractors versus employees. There are a few different tests. The IRS and the Department of Labor both have their own set of tests. One, I think it's like 11 questions. The other is six questions. So what I have kind of come to understand from an employment law perspective, is that those questions themselves change usually, and they haven't been affected yet. But like usually, it's per administration, but generally the theme of them doesn't change. So really, it's all about control, behavioral, financial time, it's the control aspect, is what I would focus on. So if you have an independent contractor, you want them to be working whenever they want, wherever they want. They should be doing making their own independent decisions, and they should also, I would recommend having, like, a time period for that contract. And they should also be, they should have other jobs too. They shouldn't be working for you full time. If you want more control over someone, then you need to start thinking about hiring a w2 employee. And I mean that like it really is the best solution if you want to grow your business, because in order to grow and expand, you're going to have to, and I say control. It's not, you know, helicoptering around this person, but it's the fact that you can say your schedule is these hours or these days, so at least you know when they're around, when they're there to work and be reliable. You can say, you know, I want you to be at this location at this time. If you do have an in person office, you can, you know, check in and make comments on the work and give them guidance. And you can really be particular about what's done, and then you can also mold and grow that person to grow with your business. So if you're looking to expand hiring an employee, even though it is a little bit, you know, it's scary for people, and I totally understand that, right? It's a big commitment. You have to be paying that person regularly. You're paying taxes. Now you have to register your business per it depends on where the employee is located, and that's absolutely correct. As a remote business, you really need to be focusing on where you're hiring. If you have people set up, you know, let's say you hire two different people at the same time. You need to make sure you're registered in both of those states, not only to do business, but for payroll tax, for unemployment insurance. It's not a huge lift. It's scarier than it sounds, but there are things you need to do. And then when it comes to onboarding people too, you need to make sure you have the right paperwork in place and all of those things. But really, you know, it is beneficial to have employees, because you have those people then that you can rely on contractors are meant to work as independently as possible.

Jacki Hayes  14:56

And I'm curious then, because I see a lot of postings for. Are, you know, asking for they're wanting to, you know, bring on a contractor for something. But almost every single time they say, you know, needs to work nine to five out, you know, and it's like, well, yeah, that's, that's what you can ask. You tell your employees, but you can't really insist that the contractor work nine to five. So

Kirsten Ziegler  15:19

I, agree with you. I mean, I that to me, that's, you know, and again, to me, that's a red flag. But again, maybe that, maybe that person just doesn't know, yeah, so it's hard to kind of, you know, as someone, as a contractor who's like a pun for those types of jobs, could be worth asking those questions if it's something you really want, yeah.

Jacki Hayes  15:41

And I know the one that I had heard about, as far as, like, the the suing, they had started to do performance reviews with the contractor,

Jacki Hayes  15:51

So they're like, Okay, so if you're going to do performance reviews, that's an employee thing, the contractor thing. And so therefore, where's my PTO? Where's my health benefit, you know? And they Yeah, the company ended up, but they just didn't know, and a lot of people don't, because a lot of people come from corporate, corporate, and they don't understand the difference between employee and contractor.

Kirsten Ziegler  16:11

And there and you know, it is. I've had this conversation with a friend of mine who is also a contractor, and she does a lot of like copywriting, editorial work, and she struggles a lot with that type of role, with people treating her like company she works for, treating her like an employee. And she had said to me, like, I'm so tired of having to advocate for myself as a contractor all the time. And it is I, I've dealt with that myself, with some of my clients too, you know? And like, No, these are my operating hours, right? Like, I will gladly if there's an emergency, you know, this is how we can work it, but this is how and when I operate, and it's I get it, it's really hard to kind of advocate for yourself, I think. But, you know, a part of setting up those initial agreements. And I've learned this, you know, for myself, is to kind of educate the potential client too, on how you work and the times you work. You know when you're available to them, specifically how you can be contacted. I had a client that was like their employees were texting me at like, 9pm I'm like, no, this doesn't, this doesn't work. Like, nope. So where's my 401? K, you know,

Jacki Hayes  17:33

Maya, I have all my clients either email me or use Voxer, and my lovely iPhone makes it so that I no longer get notifications from Voxer as of the end of my office hours, and it will come back up when my office hours start the next day. So perfect.

Kirsten Ziegler  17:48

And that's, you know, making your tech work for you, I think is so important, not only as a contractor, but as a business owner too. Like to protect your space and your time, I, you know, was telling my husband I'm like, you can set up do not disturbs for different things and have different apps that come up or, like, lock certain people during certain times. I use it almost incredibly helpful.

Jacki Hayes  18:14

And especially if we're helpers, and we want to help people be service providers, we sometimes forget our own boundaries, and having the tech set in place just takes care of that for us. 

Kirsten Ziegler  18:28

So absolutely and then you don't feel bad because you don't have to do the pushing. You just don't know

Jacki Hayes  18:33

I told you I wasn't in the audience after such and such time. 

Kirsten Ziegler  18:38

So this is not how I this is how I operate. So

Jacki Hayes  18:42

if somebody is thinking of bringing on anybody onto their team as an employee, what would you suggest they consider, like, what's the first things they should start to be thinking about when it comes to I need an employee rather than a contractor?

Kirsten Ziegler  19:01

Well, first of all, you need a job description. You need a detailed job description to set the expectations, because this is a document that will be so beneficial to the employee and the business owner, it level sets like this is not only what I need you to do during the hiring process. Can you do it? But then once they start. It's an outline of what they're supposed to be doing and what the expectations are. And that doesn't mean that someone has to come in and you know, you're expecting them to hit every single point in it. It just means, let's start with the first three bullets on this job description. Within six months, I expect you to be doing this, this and this. So I really think, like, I know it sounds so silly, but just having a job description is a huge first step, and from there, you'll also be able to determine what does that our commitment look like, based on all of these like, if you are hiring a w2 employee, it could be a part time role. That's the other thing. You know, a lot of people think I have now I have to fill up 40 hours. Like, what am I? You can hire someone part time on w2 they could be an hourly employee. You can set their hours to, like, 20 hours a week. And that's a great entry point for you as a business owner to be managing someone. Because the other part, you have to consider too someone hiring someone will free up event, eventually free up your time, right? So you'll be able to focus on what brings in the big bucks, as you should be. But it takes some time to get to that point, so you need to kind of set your own expectations as well. You have to be a leader, and that's a hard thing, especially if you're like, aren't naturally inclined to do that, or don't want to, right, like, in order to keep that person engaged and keep them around, because the last thing you want is to have to keep hiring. It is, oh, my God, not only a time suck, but you lose so much money. So if you're looking to hire, make sure you're you're willing to retain someone by by working with them and mentoring them and providing them opportunities for growth.

Jacki Hayes  21:16

When they're looking for someone, what are some things they can do to make sure they're finding the right fit.

Kirsten Ziegler  21:24

I love to ask, like, behavioral questions or situation based questions. Tell me about a time when, because then you're not hearing, you know, somebody's not saying, Oh, I would handle it this way, and you know that could be, you know, a total lie. But by asking for, like, real life examples, you get a better understanding of how that person works. And you know you could tell by their resume, right, like, whether or not, for the most part, they have the the tools, the skill set, but by asking those questions about like, how they've done things in the past, or even how they you know, even how they would I don't hate it, it just, you know, you might not get as much truth, but you learn a lot about people. I think that it's also really important, though, to keep your questions consistent between candidates so that you can really evaluate them correctly. And, you know, definitely keep the personal stuff. Like, if they offer stuff up, that's great, that's fine. Like, feel free to share about yourself, you know, like, that's totally okay. Just don't ask them anything about their personal life.

Jacki Hayes  22:40

And I can't believe there's been a few times in the past in interviews, the things that I was asked about my personal I'm like, um, I don't even know if that question was legal. 

Kirsten Ziegler  22:53

Like, probably not. I mean, I'm here to tell you it probably was, if you're questioning it, it probably was. I'm always asked, Oh, I was always asked, Oh, do you have children? And I'm like, why are you you're not just because

Jacki Hayes  23:05

I'm a woman, or do you intend to have children? I'm like,

Kirsten Ziegler  23:08

Yeah, which is so much more problematic, because they don't want to pay you any sort of leave. So they're not like, Oh, my God,

Jacki Hayes  23:21

rage. I like how you said, you know, make sure your questions are consistent across all the candidates, because that helps you, you know, evaluate them on an clear level. But I'm sure, like confirmation bias or not, like just biases get in the way too. How do people avoid letting their own internalized biases, you know, show up when they're hiring.

Kirsten Ziegler  23:45

Oh my gosh, I love that you asked this because I just My Blog Post this week was about this exactly. I have it fresh in my mind, but first of all, by thinking about yourself, first like becoming self aware as to what could potentially be an unconscious I think, is really important, learning about what unconscious bias is, and then thinking about your own behaviors and what could possibly be that, and then kind of eliminating ways for stuff like that to come out, right, like so if somebody applies, don't go look to See what they look like, right? Don't, don't judge anybody by their name. Just strictly look at the resume, the skill set, the cover letter, see what they read. And then, like I said, ask those same questions. There will be people that you're just gonna vibe with more, right? Like, it's natural that that happens, but you want to kind of, you know, gut and intellectual need to, kind of, like, marry in this decision. You know, like you can't go straight off of gut feeling, because you might be entertaining some unconscious bias. There you need to go. Off of some fact based as well. But if your guts giving you red flags for whatever reason, I will say, always listen to that or digging deeper. You know, if somebody says something that you're like, oh, not sure that that would work, maybe ask them a follow up question about that specific thing. I know

Jacki Hayes  25:16

that one of the common practices, at least with online business owners, whether it's employees or contractors, they always want that two minute video of like, talk about why you want this role. And you know, I was listening to not listening, reading a thread, probably, or something along those lines of, like, Oh, that's a great way just find out if you vibe. And then somebody's like, and that's also a great way for your bias to show up. And I was like, thank you. I knew there was something that I didn't like about that practice. One, sometimes people just don't perform well on camera, just staring at a camera like me, like I can have a conversation, but you asked me to just talk to a blank screen. It's not gonna my best self is not gonna come out, and then you're gonna notice, you know, my gender and you know, do I have tattoos, the color of my skin, how I wear my hair, all of those things are going to show up. And who knows, you know, which one of your unconscious biases might pop up during that process?

Kirsten Ziegler  26:12

Absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. There was, I would say, like, maybe it was pre pandemic that that started to become very popular with, like, corporate jobs too. Like in interviews, you would have this timer. Also, that's the other thing. Like, are you kidding me? What are we to set someone up for failure? It's just this like thing, counting down, and then once it stops, it's done. And you can't do anything like it's terrible. I couldn't I agree with you completely. I don't recommend that by any means. I understand from a hiring perspective. You know, especially with remote work, it is so difficult for whoever is on the receiving end to get all of those resumes and to really filter through to see who is you know, qualified, because you receive so many on like, you could say exactly what you want, and people are like, I'm gonna reply anyway. And sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. And so, like, I understand why people put that in place, but I agree it's not a good solution. I don't have an incredible solution to fix that, but I know that that's not a good

Jacki Hayes  27:26

one. Before we wrap up. What is something that you yourself today as a business owner, would tell yourself, in your very first few months, few months

Kirsten Ziegler  27:37

At in my very first few months owning my business? Oh, my God, probably that you're capable, right? Like you're capable of doing this, and it's always going to be a roller coaster of, like someone once told me, it's a new devil at every level, like, and that's what it's like to be a business owner. And I was like, Okay, I get that. And now that I know that I'm I'm here for the ride, right? But I think in the beginning, I kind of thought I just have to get these first, the first year, and then smooth, like, No, it doesn't work, but it's okay. You know, you have good years, you have bad years, as long as you're still enjoying it, it's okay.

Jacki Hayes  28:29

Kirsten, where can the audience find you?

Kirsten Ziegler  28:33

Okay? I can be found on my website, at KDZ, HR consulting.com, I actually have a really great freebie to download a job description template with some AI props so you can really complete it, you know, based on your business, what you're looking for. So I highly recommend anybody thinking of hiring or who doesn't even have, you know, who's already hired but doesn't have any job descriptions in place, download that freebie. I'm also an Instagram Katie Z underscore, HR consulting and LinkedIn, you can find me. Kirsten Ziegler, thank you

Jacki Hayes  29:06

so much for being on the show today.

Kirsten Ziegler  29:09

Thank you so much for having me. Jacki, this was so fun.

Jacki Hayes  29:16

Thanks for hanging out with me on Here's What I Learned. If today's episode gave you an aha moment, a laugh or something to think about. Make sure you're subscribed to my email list. That's where I share even more tips, stories and behind the scenes insights to help you simplify and thrive and remember you get to do business and life your way until next time, keep experimenting, keep simplifying and keep learning.