The multisensorial digital world through the eyes of Annabelle Schneider

Roger Furrer in conversation with Annabelle Schneider about Design, Well-being & the Future of Connection

Welcome to the Studio Lookout Salon podcast, where we explore the intersection of experience design, brand strategy, and holistic well-being. Join Roger Furrer for an insightful conversation with Annabelle Schneider, an award-winning Swiss-born and New York-based designer and brand strategist. Annabelle shares her unique approach to spatial installations (physical and virtual), driven by a strong focus on mental and social well-being.

Discover Annabelle's groundbreaking research in Atlanta's queer strip club culture, leading to a COVID-era art exhibition in Bern, Switzerland, that blurred the lines between physical and virtual interaction. We discuss the digital age's impact on human connection, Generation Z's detachment, and the importance of physical closeness for mental health. Learn about her innovative projects like "Being in Bed" and "Breathe With Me," exploring virtual escapism and communal, tactile experiences.

Annabelle also touches on the role of music and AI in her work, her commitment to sustainable and inclusive design, and the evolving definition of luxury. Tune in for a thought-provoking discussion on design's impact on our lives and the future of human connection.

Transcript

Roger Furrer: 0:01

Grüezi and Hello to the Studio Lookout Salon Podcast. Today, sitting ne xt to me is Annabelle Schneider. Annabelle Schneider is an award-winning Swiss-born and New York-based dual-experience designer and brand strategist with an accomplished background in branding and spatial installations, physical and virtual, with a strong focus on well-being. How does that sound to you, annabelle, when you hear about yourself? how you describe yourself?

Annabelle Schneider: 1:23

That's very well written.

Roger Furrer: 1:23

Very well written. Very good.

Annabelle Schneider: 1:23

I'm glad you asked the question, because if you just ask me who I am, I would actually not know where to start.

Roger Furrer: 1:23

Is this also part of your creative process to not knowing where you end up when you start a project?

Annabelle Schneider: 1:23

That is certainly part of it. But I have a vision. I always have a vision. Otherwise, I would not start. But I'm driven by changes and observation of social cultural changes especially, how people change, how the environment makes us to change. Everywhere we re-consider challenges, I hope to find opportunities to make something better. So it's a driver.

Roger Furrer: 1:53

It's a driver. I remember almost 10 years ago when we met, you explained me on a car ride from Lörrach to Basel about your experience you had in Las Vegas, where you did some research in a certain establishment, where you tried to find the possibility to link physical closeness or bringing it to the virtual realm. How was that? Or your research?

Annabelle Schneider: 2:26

I applied for a research grant because I wanted to research why we're not going to clubs anymore so often, like the next generations, because clubs were dying. And then I ended up in the queer culture in New York, and I discovered voguing, and I discovered their energy and presence in space, and was very intrigued by it. And then I applied for this grant and the people who were responsible for the grant told me I should look into a more gendered space when I do the research. So to my mind came, because I'm also very much influenced by hip-hop personally, I was thinking about strip club in Atlanta actually. It was not Las Vegas, but Las Vegas has them as well. So I went to Black Strip Clubs in Atlanta and did research there I stayed with the strippers and I met there the dancers and I looked at it's a very critical space also because a lot of culture and music comes out of it but also because it's a very transactional space and power dynamics between women and men are very predominant and it's not a safe space it's a very vulnerable space even though we're talking about money And then I looked at how design has actually influence on safety or vulnerability and how display of two power dynamics can happen or not. And then a photographer friend of mine from Switzerland was visiting me at that exact time. That was not planned because I didn't want to do research with photos. It really should be more like undercover and just like really be with the people and understand But then I knew she's very open to things like that. And I told her she can come. So she took photos out of the process. Again, that was not planned. But it turned out to be like amazing. And we had amazing pictures. And then we had a show in Bern in a very small gallery. But it was like this Schaufenster, like a box. literally, it was bigger than a box, you could be in it. And during COVID, so we had this exhibition of her pictures and I made an installation made out of paper and cardboard, very sustainable and low budget and turned around strip pole, which came also out of the process. and the time, because it was COVID and it was lockdown, which we didn't plan, obviously, and no installations were allowed or no exhibitions, but we did it still. And then we... We put a lot of tape on the floor in the two meter distance that was allowed by the law for the lockdown and safety. And then we invited always like five people, which was the maximum of people who can be in a space together during lockdown and invited them to dance there in our exhibition in this glass box. and had music and we brought in the strippers from Atlanta through projections and they could dance and we could collect money. Because then people who were actually walking outside could donate money for like our art performance. That we were part of it, but then in the digital space was also the strippers from Atlanta and we had music and yeah, something was happening and police came very many times. And they were always asking, oh, this is an art installation, oh...

Roger Furrer: 5:53

So this is a very phygital approach, this crossover between a physical and a virtual reality. Did the COVID pandemic change your behaviour, how you looked at physical spaces? As I have in mind, you came from physical spaces, no? And then you started exploring this possibility of these virtual spaces.

Annabelle Schneider: 6:22

Yeah, certainly. I would say COVID accelerated it. I already observed that before. As I said before, with the generations that are changing, like I see it when I'm teaching. Most of our students are really not going out. And I see this as an important sign of something is changing.

Roger Furrer: 7:44

Maybe we need to say where you...

Annabelle Schneider: 8:26

Yeah, that's true. In New York at Parsons. And it's just a given. It's also statistically proven that Gen Z is the generation with the least sex. And this is also an alarming thing, because it affects our mental health. If we lack touch, if we lack physical closeness and all these insights are inspiration for me, or questions, why or how can design or a space, a physical space, bring us back together as a community? But what is the programming? Why are we going there? Instead of just everything digital, it's very convenient and we can have our multiple identities in the digital and have our avatars and everything, and controlled connections of how we're talking together and it's not spontaneous, it's not authentic. We can control everything in the digital with filters, with chat GPT that tells you what to say, all those things.

Roger Furrer: 8:26

But how do you see this barrier of physical closeness and the virtual spaces? Can this virtual spaces be more inclusive, more safe, or is it also danger to be exposed to a certain vulnerability, I would say? Or how would you, do you see any transformation of having physical interaction in this digital spaces? Is that possible in the near future, or what do you think? Smelling, touching, everything?

Annabelle Schneider: 8:27

Well, I applaud both spaces for what they are and exactly what they're not. Like, you know, in the physical, in the virtual space, you don't have gravity. You can play with scale. You can play with all these fantasies. A world doesn't have to look like a world as we know it. And that's beautiful. And there's a lot of potential for actually creating something that we're lacking here. We can also build way faster, way different. Just in this way, I think the virtual is good and should stay the virtual. But I always hope the virtual has a trigger point that eventually brings us back here to the present in the physical. And with safety, that's a good question. I mean, it really depends what are you doing in a virtual space? And how do you interact with people and what's their intention? It's very difficult. There's for sure danger too. You know, like I'm thinking of younger people who meet people. That was already without virtual spaces, just the Internet. When people met way earlier and they got to know somebody, and then they met this person, it was completely somebody else, and they were lost because they didn't. Yeah, it's dangerous, of course. But maybe it's getting more dangerous when you come to the physical. But I still think we need to take this risk. And then I think the physical should be much more tactile, and much more the celebration of craft and tactility, and actually the art of making and the slowness, because in the digital you have so much fast-paced things, which is maybe also good, because it's unfortunately just the time we're in. But then we celebrate much more, or learn to appreciate the ritual and the wisdom of how to actually make things and how to engage with things that cannot be replicated in the virtual. And I think that's also something healing and very important the longer we go.

Roger Furrer: 10:55

So here your focus is also a lot on mental well-being through digital possibilities. Do you really think it has, as you said, this fast pace and everything, acceleration? Do you see a trend going down to a slowness, to a more sustainable way? How do you include sustainable factors like social sustainability into your projects?

Annabelle Schneider: 10:55

Well, seeking for the natural and seeking for the authentic and maybe also the imperfect. I think because in the digital, everything with the algorithms, with AI, with a lot of those things, everything becomes very homogeneous. And it's just everything is perfect, quotation mark. And I think with the seek actually of yes, going, I don't know if it's necessarily slowness. It's just slower than digital. But probably also not, we are trained, we have such a short attention span, we don't have the patience to be forever like, okay, very slow. Maybe it's more about ritual and you constantly go back and repetition. You go back to places that are on purpose very different or do on purpose something very different. And, you know, I also think jobs are changing or I met a friend recently and she worked something completely else, but now she's Becoming a trainer in tree hogging. And my other friend was like, this is so weird. And I'm like, I actually don't think it's so weird. You know, maybe 10 years ago, we were all probably reacting like that or saying, oh, it's something so spiritual and far away from the ground here. And like, what are you doing? But I think that's just a sign of the time we're in, that we're all looking for more closeness to nature. But it can be also the closeness to our nature. Like when people are meditating, like you want to connect to your to your breath again, or you want to have closeness to what is nature. Or you want to have closeness to a tree, or sometimes you don't have closeness to a tree, so you need to find it different.

Roger Furrer: 12:35

But closeness to a tree is something different than having closeness to other people. Isn't it just something which allows you again to be in a kind of a bubble, where You are for yourself. It's very self-centric when I go hugging a tree. The tree might not like it, I'm hugging him. But if I want to hug another person, I just heard about those young people in the social medias. You just said it before, they are no longer going to clubs and everything. This social interaction is no longer happening in the real world. And that gives them a kind of a barrier, which... A lot of things, also the pandemic of course has shown us the vulnerability of being close. But I think for younger people nowadays it's very intrusive almost when someone touches them, also in a very friendly way without any sexual hint. And I think this is something which is very difficult to see because I think we lose a lot of our inner peace When we do not allow anymore to be touched or to be healed also through kindness. And I think also the beauty of imperfection, you just talked about, I think with young people, I mean my 50s, you're a bit younger than I am. But still we are not the generation who grew up with all this possibilities in the digital world. So as I see you, as I just said, when you started telling me about this project that you had with these queer people, when it went to these strip clubs and everything, where you wanted to try to find what's really going on, where is the frontier, maybe even in invisible frontiers. I think it's super interesting. Do you ask this kind of questions. Do you also talk to younger people about this? Do you teach them in your lectures at your school? How do they react?

Annabelle Schneider: 14:50

When I'm listening to you, I mean, it's super well, yeah, it's a good perspective. I'm also thinking like it's so much about curiosity and dare to do stuff or dare to discover and the unknown but my students or not only my students I see these all over the place also when you read studies are very afraid of making mistakes or exposing them being different and this is the danger and I also think we lose an honest feeling also to ourselves through that because and that's maybe also when coming back to quickly to you know a tree hugging or something I think it's about the energies and we want to feel something. And that's maybe also going to my questions. What do physical spaces have to offer us? We want to feel. Because do we feel in a flat, you know, in a screen, like scrolling through the phone and we just have a million of overstimulated impressions and like more, more, more. But do we actually engage with it? Do we listen? There's a... between mind and body is always a connection. And the mind eats very... We're trained, we're super fast in absorbing, but do we really? Because our body is slower in absorbing. So what is happening through there? And there is an imbalance and I think mental health is really affected by that. And that's why it's so important, for instance, to make art, you know, with... Based on craftmanship or like, yes, make collages like Monique. No, but really like the art of like, you tear something apart, you engage with this paper, you look from different perspectives in those things are very important. But now I lost track. You're asking about the students. No, but this is actually something we're doing with them. I mean, they still have to do model making. They still have to I mean, we start now to teach them to make, that's also exploration, we don't know what's right or not with AI, but instead of just telling you you're not allowed to use AI, because I think that's wrong, because I think we have to prepare them for the world, and it goes so fast, and if they're not using AI, then they're lost. That's my opinion but it's really a question of how do you use it and how can it positively affect your process and how can you compete also with everybody else but so first instead of saying this is the module for the whole semester and this is the we work towards an end perfect project of a space I'm teaching interior design and we say okay this is the project you use AI ai now and you Visualize your interior design project, your space, how it will look like. And then they have it after iterations. They present it. They're super happy. They're engaged with it because they already see this wonderful image. And then the whole semester they have to deconstruct this image. Then they have to work backwards and really understand what materials, what's the acoustic of this material, what's the scent, what, how do I draw this? How do I, how does this come together?” They have to make models and everything. So I think there is a way of, you know, maybe we just, everything changes. They have to make models and everything. So I think there is a way of, you know, maybe we just, everything changes. My inspiration.

Roger Furrer: 18:17

Looking at your initiatives right now, I would like to take out being in bed and breathe with me, which I think is very interesting, because being in bed is a mixture between something physical, where you lay down on some cushions, but you have a virtual reality experience, instead of breathe with me, which is a Very big installation and it's very physical because it's a real space, which is made out of a structure. Fabric, inflated fabric. How did that come? You started with this being in bed and then it evolved to a new initiative, which is Brief with Me. What do they have in common?

Annabelle Schneider: 19:06

I think the contrast and exactly this duality of physical and virtual, like obviously with virtual, I use the most extreme tool we have right now, which is really you put the blinders on and you're very for yourself. You're with the mind somewhere else. Your body is still in physical space, but you don't see if you're when you're in it, what people around you are doing. So it's really nothing for community. It's really just for yourself. The Breathe With Me is with fabrics. It's very tactile. And it's very about the active, holistic breathing. Like a movement and motion. And it's very communal. But you're also for yourself.

Roger Furrer: 19:57

Music is also a huge part of your work. Soundscapes. Spoken words, I would also say. B

Annabelle Schneider: 19:59

That's maybe also personal. I think music is a guide for my whole life. I always need music. It's safety. It's also nostalgia. But it also can, you know, every feeling is valid and I think we should feel every feeling and music can help you. Sometimes also when you're angry, maybe you have to listen to very loud music to just release. It's very personal, but I think music in all our lives should be kind of a guide subconsciously sometimes, but it's like the soundtrack to an experience.

Roger Furrer: 20:36

Do you think artificial intelligence could help us in mastering our emotions through whatever virtual soundscapes, yeah, visuality? Would you use artificial intelligence in one of your next projects as a core part of your work?

Annabelle Schneider: 21:05

Welll I use artificial intelligence for the process similarly as what I just said as we do with students or as in a way of how I think we're moving along and why it also can be beneficial or it should be and we have to find that way but I would never ever use it for emotions I think it doesn't work I hope it doesn't work never and No, it's again, imperfection. I think we need the imperfection in the physical space of our experience and it needs to have space for spontaneity, for dialogue and to dare to be different also. Or to feel something different as you. I don't want to be dictated by AI, what I should feel like, no.

Roger Furrer: 21:53

Don't you think that artificial intelligence sometimes also could give you a kind of an input you do not have? Especially when you look at it, when you say these young people do not go to clubs anymore. How do they communicate with each other? It's all through these technical possibilities we have nowadays, which is different when we grew up. I mean, we played outside together. Today, we are in all these virtual worlds, which you said before. I think it's also interesting when you can go into worlds which you cannot have in reality. This is also something, I think, when we talk about mental wellness, care, people with disabilities, either way can, for example, being in bed, I think something is super nice here. You told once when people are tired, being in bed for a very long time or even cannot leave a bed anymore at all. So you can give them with your art also something back, which can be very healing.

Annabelle Schneider: 22:55

And I base that again on the senses like designing with senses so VR is very visual and hearing focused it's all through the ears and the eyes and then it happens in our mind whereas the physical installation is very tactile or it should become much more tactile still hearing and seeing as well but I think it's also a job of a designer to Maybe create some unexpected weird encounters in a physical space that we have to figure out how we interact with that. So we're actually here in the present and we have to engage with this thing and not just like... And that's why I think AI is not good in a... It needs some human-made things to make us a ware.

Roger Furrer: 23:52

Who are your human-made collaborators in your project? who do you need for it?

Annabelle Schneider: 24:02

Usually I work with people from sounds. I hope to have good or I always appreciate to have clients who are going in this direction too and give me the opportunity to even like do projects like that. Then I always appreciate somebody to bounce off ideas. In most cases I worked with graphic designer but she also became like a very good friend of mine just to you know sometimes to double check like do you think that's the right and then we have different perspectives and yeah ....

Roger Furrer: 24:41

...fabricators yeah exactly I just wanted to come to how do you work with brands or with yeah with kind of collaborations where it gets more maybe in a way. You are part of another brand's image. Is this something that interests you? Is this something, because I'm coming from here, because during the pandemic, we developed together for Laufen, a Swiss bathroom manufacturer, a Virtual Space, where you work together with Swiss architect, Fuhrimann-Hächler. I found it very interesting with these rooms you created or these worlds. And I think in the end, we both have been a bit disappointed about the usability which we could achieve through the technical possibilities at the time. Also in terms of budget, how much money can you invest in this kind of very new solutions? How far are brands really interested in giving you the carte blanche for having this kind of inclusivity of your spaces?

Annabelle Schneider: 25:50

It's a difficult question. I think, you know, I'm focusing so much on wellness and well-being and through design. And I think it's just the time we're in and brands, no matter in what industry they actually are, they become aware that they have to invest in that. It's just more the question, where is the touchpoint they want to invest into? And yes, coming back to our project, which I also really appreciate, Liked, because it was also an exploration and a response to the time. It was very zeitgeist-current. It was very good for then. And also the collaboration with Furimon Hagler was very interesting, because they are very well-known, experienced architects. Physical architects. Yeah, physical architects. And I come from somewhere in between. But yes, it was also maybe who is the target group, you know, and it was like on a desktop or like a flat screen that you look at this and it's not, yes, it's digital space. It's not really a virtual space, because if it's virtual, then it's really like, yes, we would have to maybe I say this now, back then we didn't know that also how technology develops. We would have had to make an app or something that you can then load into nowadays Apple Vision Pro or MetaQuest or something. But then it's again limited accessibility. It's only for people who have this tool at home and a computer. Almost everyone has these days or a phone. So And it was also same as for fashion brands that couldn't do runways at the same time, couldn't do runways anymore. And I was myself very inspired by some of the brands who did amazing films, which was then, but also runway or the presentation of a new collection. So yes, but that was clearly a moment where... Every industry had to rethink how do we actually convey what we had before very traditionally with fairs, which was also our conversation. Like, yes, we have new products and we should kind of bring a narrative or a world around them to the people. And you can do photo shootings, but again, we're in such an overstimulated world. We see so many photos. And yes, it needs them probably to create a positioning of the product. But then how can you engage people. How can you trigger their curiosity?

Roger Furrer: 28:23

You just started talking about the accessibility. All this new technical equipment and features usually at the beginning are very expensive. So if you need to own something which is... Let's say something expensive. How accessible is that for all people, also for people who do not have the money to buy all this new equipment? Is this something which interests you or you say, no, I go for the luxury and all the rest of the crumps who will fall it's for the others?

Annabelle Schneider: 29:05

No, that doesn't interest me at all. I want to design for people that are in need or makes something better for people, hopefully. Of course, that sounds not super. Because also when you work for brands, of course, it's a difficult time we're in. There's always a consumeristic approach to it or capitalistic approach. And then it is in a clinch. But I'm teaching for instance also inclusive retail and that's exactly the same topic. Like how retail spaces have to become more inclusive because we say 10 years ago it was experience design. It was super new and you had to create those 3-dimensional or 4-dimensional stories and experience in a store in order not to make retail die. And people actually come to a space and not just buy the product online but... go there and have an experience and meet with like-minded people and community and oh it's maybe also like a showcase of a musician there or whatever is tied into the brand experience it we're still there as well but i think yeah then we have the highly sensitive climate of also my students or generation c we're or maybe also very much in America I wanted to say but now when I'm in Switzerland I also realize it's also very sensitive climate here maybe a little bit no I don't want to say anything wrong but like in America we for instance have racism is a huge huge huge topic and gender you know queerness and everything like it's very heavily loaded and it's very difficult to talk about it because everybody is yeah you have to be careful And being in this time, I think it's very difficult and for brands it's very difficult too. That's why they also, we have this class now, inclusive retail and brands like Nike, for instance, are very... progressive in that it started with body inclusivity but you know or we just had the Victoria's Secret Fashion Show this week which tries to also change their narrative after being absent since 2018 and like just yes of course they start with the body because the body is also there and diversity it's what they display it's their thing but it goes way further and social economic is also something of that and you know yes I I My work should kind of also make people think, so you want to reach more people, hopefully, and not just exclusive people. I also think times of luxury are gone, or luxury is different. What is for you luxury? Well, I grew up with people telling me luxury, if you can own this car and this watch. For me, luxury is freedom and have the ability to work what I'm working.

Roger Furrer: 31:51

Is the luxury out of your background now, as with living in New York, is luxury different in Europe and in the States?

Annabelle Schneider: 32:08

I would say, no, we're very westernized and driven by media. I think media still dictates a lot.

Roger Furrer: 32:14

Are we westernized in Europe from the influence of US or vice versa or the other way around? Do you see any differences in design and approach to new... Design Thinking in Europe or in the US or even inside the US in the different states. Now just the election coming up in November, we see huge differences in the regions of the United States. I think it's like 56 countries in one country. Are you living in a bubble in New York? Yes, somehow.

Annabelle Schneider: 33:07

Yes, of course. That's also why I like... No, it's true, though. No, because the whole US is so big. It's huge. It could be many, many different countries. We cannot forget that. So it's difficult to just talk about the US. Then I'm teaching at the design school and this week I just had a lecture at Sato Deco in Zurich and before the lecture started I had a long dialogue with the lady who hosted it and she was talking about circular or like how they're using food waste and how even students bring back food they're not using anymore for their cafeteria where they can even the food is recycled or kind of reused and then I was thinking, yeah, this is extreme. I wish we... We don't have this at Parsons. But then I was thinking, oh my God, America is so bad. And yes, in large scale it is. And it's not a topic. It depends also, yes, with the political debate. Where is your perspective? What is your education, clearly? And what is the media telling? You can completely ignore that topic of climate change. But then Parsons, we also have the rule that... We only can build models from used cardboard or found objects that students find on the street. And then you build a model. It's not... not illegal, but it's not, how do you say, like, it's, students cannot buy foamboard anymore, for instance, foamboard is banned, all those things, so there is also, and we have a healthy materials lab, that's the strongest research thing in America, that's all new materials, or like, not reused, healthy materials, as it says.

Roger Furrer: 34:43

It's for you, sorry, it's just like to go into, for you, teaching design also, political choice or decision or you're kind of a decision maker also in terms of political influence or opinions when you teach?

Annabelle Schneider: 34:59

Yeah, and yeah, because I think a designer has a huge, huge impact on the way, like on the decision he makes, like the way we live because look at the packaging, look at like throughout the whole process, we make so many decisions. And yeah, I mean, I was talking to a girl that used to study with me and she's working now at a huge experience design company in New York but they're doing experiences all over the world also restaurants and everything and I looked at the project of her it looks amazing but then I asked her like why did you use all this material like and I'm not the best one in always just using, you know, like super sustainable materials. But I try because everybody in whatever you're working, I think nobody can save the whole planet. But I think we all have a responsibility in what we're doing every day and what we're, what we should know best, at least make there some ethical decisions. Like look in your spectrum before being overwhelmed by the whole mountain from everything because it's, yes, it's era of crisis. And then she said, I never heard about that. I was like, what? We were together in class and we had a class for three semesters called Sustainable Materials. Of course, we talked about this the whole time. And then I was like, yeah, it's probably because of budget and also... It's the problem because I experienced that myself. Sometimes you design a space and then you want to educate or show your clients, give the options. We could also work with this tile or with this tile. But then the less healthy tile is way cheaper and it's unfortunately still the case. Or then there's of course everywhere a lot of greenwashing with labels that you have achieved to get some products. It's good we have this awareness, but it's still a long way to go.

Roger Furrer: 37:08

Where do you think immersive design is developing?

Annabelle Schneider: 37:13

In re-usables. This is a difficult question, too. I want, you know, immersive design is, it's really changing as well and it has to because I'm also thinking about fashion runways or something which are not exactly immersive design but it's also driven by kind of ephemeral spaces and a lot with light and music and spectacle. So it's kind of linked to me there and I see it with fashion runways the most that They should not survive as they do right now because it's so much waste produced and no reuse and nobody thinks of what happens with those mirrors that Fendi just put up. Okay, where are they going?

Roger Furrer: 37:56

In Milano is now a project with two ladies who collect all runway shows , they store them and you can go there and use the material for your p roject.

Annabelle Schneider: 37:59

Okay, that is amazing. So yes, this is amazing. So that's maybe also where I see the way to go or like you build some... Yeah, you share and build and be creative in like what elements were there. What can we make out? Or you make something that can be site-specific, adapted, modular and

Roger Furrer: 38:26

Thank you very much, Annabelle. I think very interesting input you gave us today. So I would like to say thank you very much. Take care and hope to see you soon again.