The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, episode 1

The Murder of Roger Ackroyd (1926) has become known as one of Agatha Christie’s most controversial novels due to an unexpected stunner of a twist at the end. Christie considered it her masterpiece.

In 2013, the British Crime Writers’ Association voted it the best crime novel ever written.

Read: Buy it used, read it for free, or get it on Amazon. (Reading time: ~4 hours)

Reflect: Check out the conversation starters below.

Weigh In: Share your thoughts using the comments below!

Our guest: Simon Eli Milliman - aka the mythical white panther who cries.
Host of the podcast Everything I Hate About Me.
Urban Jack of Urban Jack Productions

Check out these Marrow recipes from the BBC and get in touch with your inner HP!

We All Have Something to Hide: Things aren’t always as they seem. Characters present themselves in one way but hide their true intentions and true selves beneath the surface. We all have something to hide, don’t we?

“Every one of you in this room is concealing something from me.” He raised his hand as a faint murmur of protest arose. “Yes, yes, I know what I am saying. It may be something unimportant—trivial—which is supposed to have no bearing on the case, but there it is. Each one of you has something to hide.”

What on Earth Is a Vegetable Marrow? A marrow is a cucurbit, which means it’s from the same family as the melon, cucumber, squash and courgette (zucchini). The marrow is actually a courgette that has been left on the plant to grow a little longer; likewise, if you pick a marrow when small, it’s classed as a courgette. Marrow has a creamy flesh, edible skin and seeds, and a mild flavour.

You can steam, bake, boil, fry or roast marrow. The stripy skin is edible, but if you are roasting or frying you might want to remove the seeds and stringy middles so you can just enjoy the flesh.

Have you ever eaten vegetable marrow? Do you garden? Have you ever given yourself over to gardening a single vegetable as an all-consuming hobby? If you were to garden a single food, what would that food be?

The Mongoose: Rudyard Kipling’s story “Ricki-Ticki-Tavi” is referenced, part of The Jungle Book (a story dear to my heart, having recently read it to my son). “Go & find out” or sit placidly at home and find out. Are you familiar with either of these two types of personalities? Do you have one?

The Intelligence Corps: Miss Marple: Agatha Christie said Caroline was her favorite character and her inspiration to create the character of Miss Marple. How do you feel about Caroline? Have you read any Miss Marple?

“I was able to set M. Poirot right upon several points. He was very grateful to me. He said I had the makings of a born detective in me—and a wonderful ​​psychological insight into human nature.”

Transcript

Sarah Harrison: 0:24

Welcome to Tea Tonic & Toxin, a book club and podcast for anyone who wants to explore the best mysteries and thrillers ever written. I'm your host Sarah Harrison,

Carolyn Daughters: 0:35

and I'm your host Carolyn daughters. Pour yourself a cup of tea, a gin and tonic, but not a toxin. And join us on a journey through 19th and 20th century mysteries and thrillers every one of them a game changer.

Sarah Harrison: 0:49

I'm very excited about our episode today, Carolyn.

Carolyn Daughters: 0:57

I am as well.

Sarah Harrison: 0:59

We are talking about The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, which is arguably the best mystery novel ever written. We have our very first remote guest, Simon Eli Milliman. But before we get into that, I'm going to read a word from our sponsor, the fabulous Carolyn Daughters. Carolyn runs game-changing corporate brand therapy workshops, teaches Online Marketing Bootcamp courses and leads daylong Persuasive Writing Engine courses. Wait ... there's no typo.

Carolyn Daughters: 1:43

I fixed it. I had one job in the last month, and it was to fix the typo.

Sarah Harrison: 1:52

And you did it very persuasively. She leads Persuasive Writing Engine workshops. Carolyn empowers startups, small businesses, enterprise organizations, and government agencies to win hearts minds, deals and dollars. You can learn more at carolyndaughters.com. And you should.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:10

Thank you. I would love that. Sarah, we also have a listener award this month.

Sarah Harrison: 2:16

Yes. I really want to know who it is. Who is it?

Carolyn Daughters: 2:18

I've been keeping it a secret. She asked, and I would not tell her. To be fair, she asked one minute ago.

Sarah Harrison: 2:20

Yes. Well, I didn't really ask. I just wanted to make sure we had one.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:30

Our listener this month is Sandy Durham from Tulsa, Oklahoma.

Sarah Harrison: 2:36

I think that's our first Oklahoma listener.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:39

We're going to cover all the states and hopefully many of the countries.

Sarah Harrison: 2:43

All of them.

Carolyn Daughters: 2:44

We have fans around the world. Well, thank you, Sandy for listening to Tea Tonic & Toxin and for being active on social media. To show our appreciation, we'll be sending you a very cool Tea, Tonic & Toxin sticker.

Sarah Harrison: 2:59

Hey, grab a sticker because we have video today. Wave it around. It's weird looking at you on the video, guest. We're not used to having video.

Eli Milliman: 3:11

It's weird being looked at.

Sarah Harrison: 3:18

This is fancy.

Eli Milliman: 3:20

I love it.

Sarah Harrison: 3:20

Haven't I given you a sticker yet?

Eli Milliman: 3:23

No, I haven't received the sticker yet.

Sarah Harrison: 3:25

Well, congratulations, next month's listener.

Carolyn Daughters: 3:31

The sticker is mailed in these amazing envelopes that have an octopus on them.

Sarah Harrison: 3:36

A fancy seal. The octopus, the mysterious animal of the sea.

Carolyn Daughters: 3:43

We came up with some reason why it was an octopus. But I think it's just because it's really fun.

Sarah Harrison: 3:49

I kept trying to not get the octopus, but it kept calling me back. Finally I just thought, well, that's what it should be.

Carolyn Daughters: 3:57

I like the octopus. If you'd like to get your own on air shout out -- and why wouldn't you -- and get a sticker in this amazing octopus envelope, just weigh in on the books we're reading on the comment forms on our website. They're all over. They're on the page for the individual book. They're also on our contact page. Or you can post a comment on our Facebook or Instagram pages. You can tell us your vote for best mystery novel ever. Our handle is @teatonicandtoxin.

Sarah Harrison: 4:26

Awesome. Thank you, Sandy.

Carolyn Daughters: 4:30

Sarah is very thankful today.

Sarah Harrison: 4:32

I am also very thankful to our guest Simon Eli Milliman. To some he's known as the mythical white panther who cries.

Eli Milliman: 4:45

I had completely forgotten about this. This is great. Please keep going.

Sarah Harrison: 4:50

To others, he's the host of the podcast, Everything I Hate About Me to other still, he's Urban Jack of the synth pop band Urban Jack and the Savage Sophisticates or the long-gone frontman of Subterranean Howl. Music producer, photographer, and director of theatrical productions. Eli, who are you? What name would you like to be known as? What do you do?

Eli Milliman: 5:24

Too much, I actually had to take a hiatus from the podcast just recently because I was like, something has to give. I feel like most of us are in that boat. There's just too much going on. And, as you know, I'm also a father of five.

Sarah Harrison: 5:42

I didn't include that in your bio. Sorry.

Eli Milliman: 5:44

That's okay.

Sarah Harrison: 5:46

The bio got filled up too fast with the white panther bit.

Carolyn Daughters: 5:51

We didn't have room for your children, Eli.

Eli Milliman: 5:54

You know what, sometimes neither do I. Some stuff has to give, so I make sure to make room for them. But yeah, the latest stuff is I'm directing a play called Night Mother. I'm actually co-directing it. I actually brought on somebody to be my assistant director. Seeing how capable they were at their job. I was like, you know what, let's just be co-directors because you're doing way too much stuff for me to justify I'm the director and you're my assistant. It'd be like Dr. Watson calling Sherlock his assistant.

Sarah Harrison: 6:37

He probably would and does and treats him that way. He's so pompous.

Carolyn Daughters: 6:42

Watson's not.

Sarah Harrison: 6:44

Oh, right. I guess I reversed that. Sherlock is so pompous.

Eli Milliman: 6:48

Or in the case of The Murder of Roger Ackroyd, it would be like Dr. Sheppard calling Poirot his assistant.

Carolyn Daughters: 6:56

Right, because up until about, like, the last three pages, Dr. Sheppard really thought Poirot was pretty dense. Like, he doesn't really know what he's doing.

Eli Milliman: 7:09

I'm really excited for that. That's gonna go on at the end of September. The theme of the play is suicide. And we're putting it on during suicide awareness month.

Sarah Harrison: 7:16

Oh, perfect. Well, for the book. You know, I just blurt things out.

Eli Milliman: 7:29

I'm working on about three different albums of music right now as well. I write the podcast, which is totally scripted.

Sarah Harrison: 7:44

Yeah, I noticed yours was.

Eli Milliman: 7:47

I don't interview people. I'm way too egotistical to want to know what anybody else thinks. I only want to people to know what I think.

Carolyn Daughters: 7:57

Is that one of the things you hate about yourself?

Eli Milliman: 8:00

It is, actually.

Sarah Harrison: 8:07

Before we jump in too much, we haven't read our summary yet. We're getting carried away. We have to find out if this book is the best mystery novel ever written.

Carolyn Daughters: 8:13

Wait, we're covering a book today?

Sarah Harrison: 8:14

We are.

Eli Milliman: 8:16

We're actually going to talk about a book?

Sarah Harrison: 8:20

We'll get to the book, but that doesn't mean we'll stay with the book.

Carolyn Daughters: 8:25

We fly around a bit.

Eli Milliman: 8:29

That's what art is for. It's to inspire you to think about all the other stuff.

Sarah Harrison: 8:35

That's why I thought it might be a nice crossover with your podcast since the very first line is about literature being a springboard to introspection.

Eli Milliman: 8:55

That's what it should be, right? Even the stuff I hate makes me think about why I hate it so much. Like why am I having such a visceral reaction toward this?

Carolyn Daughters: 9:18

You're bringing your whole self to that story. You hate it. You love it. Sarah and I spend a lot of time trying to figure out why we're responding the way we are to the mysteries and detective stories we're reading.

Sarah Harrison: 9:34

Definitely.

Carolyn Daughters: 9:40

The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is a classic detective novel written by Agatha Christie and published in 1926. It just may be the best mystery novel ever written. Set in the English countryside, the story revolves around the mysterious murder of Roger Ackroyd, a wealthy businessman. The plot unfolds through the perspective of Dr. James Sheppard, the village doctor who narrates the chilling events that transpire. Following Roger Ackroyd's death the renowned detective Hercule Poirot investigates the murder. Poirot quickly realizes that everyone in the household, including family members and household staff, had motives and opportunities to commit the crime. As he delves deeper into the case, he unearths secrets, hidden relationships, and unexpected connections Poirot methodically interviews the suspects, gathering clues and piecing together the puzzle. Everyone has something to hide. In the end, in a stunning twist, Poirot exposes the truth behind Roger Ackroyd's death, revealing the shocking identity of the real murderer.

Sarah Harrison: 10:47

There's going to be spoilers. But not in the intro.

Carolyn Daughters: 10:55

The Murder of Roger Ackroyd is a groundbreaking novel with an inventive narrative structure and an unexpected revelation that challenges the conventions of detective fiction. Christie's masterful storytelling keeps readers on the edge of their seats, eagerly following Poirot's pursuit of truth and justice in a case filled with deception, intrigue, and betrayal. And spoilers will follow, listeners. So if you never plan to read the book for some reason -- we don't know why that would be -- continue listening. Pause if you'd like to read the book, and it won't take you very long. It's a page turner and it's pretty awesome.

Sarah Harrison: 11:33

And possibly the best mystery novel ever written, as you said. You should read it for sure. I don't know, Eli, if you're familiar with the kind of the premise of the podcast, but it's basically sort of the history of the genre of mystery from Edgar Allan Poe through time. Now we're at Agatha Christie. Each different author is bringing something new to develop the genre. So tell me, do you read mysteries?

Eli Milliman: 12:06

What's funny is I normally don't. But I do love Edgar Allan Poe. So I have read Poe, and I love Sherlock Holmes. So I've read all of the Sherlock Holmes stories. This was, believe it or not, my first Agatha Christie. It was really fun for me. I love the mystery genre, but I always watch it, and I don't read it. I've seen all the David Suchet as Poirot.

Carolyn Daughters: 12:39

David Suchet is amazing as Poirot.

Eli Milliman: 12:43

I actually went back and watched the episode for this book.

Sarah Harrison: 12:48

They have an episode for this book? Did you already know how it ended?

Eli Milliman: 12:52

The thing was, I had seen it a way long time ago. I remembered certain plot points. They took such liberties and they changed so many things from the book. Certain things you have to do, like they excluded certain characters and things like that because of time restraints. But other things I felt like, why are they doing this, and it really just dumbed down the book to an extreme level that I was very disappointed in. One of the things from the very beginning of the television episode is that they make King's Abbot and its inhabitants have this dark underbelly. And as you read the book, it's quite the opposite. You realize people have secrets, but you don't hate people, and you don't think they're bad people. Most people who are keeping secrets are doing so for sometimes noble reasons or just human reasons. But in the episode, they are very over the top about making even Ackroyd, the character himself, someone who's not respected in the community. They talked about his ill gotten gains. A lot of people have a lot of reason to not like him. And it's just the opposite in the book.

Carolyn Daughters: 14:28

Roger Ackroyd is the heart and soul of King's Abbot in the book.

Eli Milliman: 14:33

And not just monetarily, but also just as being an upright citizen. So they just change all these things in the episode. I didn't see any reason to do that. It just confused me a lot going back and watching it after reading the book.

Carolyn Daughters: 14:55

It's so interesting because we read The Mysterious Affair at Styles, which was Agatha Christie's first book and also the first book starring Poirot. Most of the characters, I think we decided, were not very likable. I didn't feel that way with this book. They felt very selfish in Styles. I didn't really identify with them. The character I liked best was Poirot, which is cool. You should like the detective, I guess. But you also think maybe there's another character or two you're gonna be behind, and I wasn't in Styles. In this book, I found myself liking a lot of the characters or at least thinking I liked Caroline, I liked Flora, I liked Ralph Paton. Various characters. I thought, were probably pretty decent people. In fact, this book may have my vote for best mystery novel ever. I think.

Eli Milliman: 15:45

As I was reading this book, I imagined Caroline becoming Poirot's new partner. I was like, she'd be the perfect partner for Poirot. She would be the perfect Watson for him. She has a very quick mind. She's not right about everything, but she's always thinking about all the undertones and people's underlying motivations the way Poirot does.

Sarah Harrison: 16:15

That's funny. With one of my vintage book buys, I got this Agatha Christie companion thrown in free. They're like, Hey, you're buying a used Agatha Christie book. So I was reading it, and it was saying that Caroline was Agatha Christie's favorite character in the book and inspired her to create her other famous detective, Miss Marple.

Eli Milliman: 16:41

Miss Marple, yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 16:42

I haven't actually read any Miss Marple books.

Eli Milliman: 16:46

I've never read any of her but I've watched all the old TV series. Now, after doing this actually, it's really fun, I want to go back to all my favorite stories. Most of them are the most obvious ones, you know, Murder on the Orient Express, Death on the Nile. Now I want to go back and read the books because the book was so much better than the film version that now I want to go back. That should normally should go without saying. The book's always so much better.

Sarah Harrison: 17:23

Mystery wasn't really a genre I read a lot of before we started this podcast. I mean, I like it, but it's just nothing I'd sought out before. It's all been pretty surprising and cool for me. But because the genre is new for me, it would be hard for me to say what's the best mystery novel ever written.

Carolyn Daughters: 17:50

The Miss Marple books are really interesting, because she's an armchair detective. She doesn't, in many cases, leave her home. People bring the information to her. Caroline is like Miss Marple in some ways, but Caroline's also more active she's the mongoose, the Rikki-Tikki-Tavi mongoose, whereas Miss Marple sits and people come to her and they tell her things. She's able to process what they say. And see it differently than the people telling her the details.

Sarah Harrison: 18:21

That was one of the things I had just actually finished. I got"Rikki-Tikki-Tavi" for my son and it's a beautiful adaptation by one of my favorite illustrators. And then I got the full Jungle Book, in which"Rikki-Tikki-Tavi" is one of the sub stories. That was amazing, too. Have you read The Jungle Book?

Eli Milliman: 18:43

I'm like most people. I've read the excerpts

Sarah Harrison: 18:46

Oh my goodness. It's the opposite of the Disney of The Jungle Book. movie. It's so good. I was actually crying when I was reading the part where Mowgli is leaving the wolves and the mother wolf is saying goodbye to him. My son was like, Mom, why are you crying? I was so sad. Never leave me. She loves him more than her wolf children. That was one of the parts, "go and find out." Caroline is a bit of the opposite. She stays placidly at home and all of the information comes to her.

Carolyn Daughters: 19:28

Caroline goes out and about also.

Sarah Harrison: 19:30

Well, that's how they characterized her in the book. She would just be at home looking at the windows and she'd get all her information from the milkman, or so and so's her best buddy that came over for bridge.

Carolyn Daughters: 19:45

She also like, are the boots black or brown. She was out in the community also. So she's kind of this mix of things I've felt. And the thing I like about Rikki Tikki Tavi is he's super resourceful and brave. He does go and find out.

Sarah Harrison: 20:08

Because curiosity overrides his caution.

Carolyn Daughters: 20:10

Right. He says he's not very afraid because he's always more curious than afraid. But he's also rational. When there are chances for him to overeat, for example, he will say, Well, I can't be so slow.

Sarah Harrison: 20:24

That's right. He didn't eat a lot of food until he killed the snake.

Carolyn Daughters: 20:29

He's not rash, but his curiosity is stronger than his fear, which I like. I like that name for Carolina. And I had never thought about calling someone a mongoose before, but I feel like now I want to because I think it's praiseworthy.

Sarah Harrison: 20:46

Well, not many people will get the reference. I'll just go around saying it. But people will be like, what do you mean? Do I kill snakes?

Carolyn Daughters: 20:57

For sure.

Sarah Harrison: 21:00

I like your first question here, Carolyn, about everyone having something to hide. This seems like a cornerstone concept for any book that might be called the best mystery novel ever written. And that kind of struck me in both these Agatha Christie books that we hadn't seen and all the other books is that she really sets it up so that anyone has the potential to be a killer. Like everyone in The Mysterious Affair at Styles had some kind of motive to potentially be the killer.

Carolyn Daughters: 21:23

Also everybody keeps something from everyone else. Sometimes their motives are pure. They're trying to protect someone. Sometimes their motives are the complete opposite. But nobody says the full truth. They keep something secret. And for me, that feels human and real. Eli, is that, does that resonate with you?

Eli Milliman: 22:04

I think to Poirot's credit, as a detective, I think part of what he is inducing is okay, what are they leaving out? And why and, and when he finds out certain bits of information, he's like, okay. And you know, the brilliance of somebody of Poirot is that he's making huge assumptions. And he just happens to be right. He's not finding a fingerprint and like, Oh, this is their fingerprint. He's saying, they're telling me a story, but they're only telling me what they want me to hear. Why do they only want me to hear that, and what does that say about them?

Sarah Harrison: 22:58

He's very careful with the kind of the logical deductions that he makes. He keeps a door open. He's like, Well, it could have been Parker. You'd expect Parker to be there. Parker could have been the blackmailer, but he's not the murderer. So he's still sifting through all the logical deductions and assumptions. Even beyond murdering and detecting, I think probably we are all hiding. I mean, how do you have a conversation without just deciding what you're going to say and not say? And what's the rationale behind it?

Carolyn Daughters: 23:31

Poirot says some of the stuff people are not sharing. Some of that stuff seems trivial to them. So maybe in some cases, that's the reason. We're making decisions about what we keep in and what we keep out. And in some cases, our decisions are helpful, and in other cases we're getting in the way. We're causing trouble by not sharing.

Eli Milliman: 23:55

At one point Poirot slams the table to really put on a show. I enjoy how he describes what he's going to do as his little performance, "I have to get ready for my little performance." At one point, he slams the table, and he's yelling at everybody, saying,"You have to tell me the truth. You are hiding the truth, and each of you is hiding something from me." And then of course in his own Poirot way, he says,"You can't hide anything from Poirot. Hercule Poirot knows all."

Sarah Harrison: 24:27

I like when he calls himself Papa Poirot.

Eli Milliman: 24:31

Especially when he's talking to a younger person

Carolyn Daughters: 24:36

When he's in this village at the beginning, nobody knows who he is, so they're all calling him Porrott.

Eli Milliman: 24:47

That's another way that the film version completely differs. They set it up like he's established in the town already. He's best buddies with Ackroyd. In the show they show them together. In the book -- am I remembering correctly -- there's no interaction between Poirot and Ackroyd?

Sarah Harrison: 25:14

It's just an implied relationship where Poirot asked Ackroyd to not reveal his identity. But that's not actually shown in the book.

Eli Milliman: 25:26

In the TV show, he has been there long enough that everybody knows him. Dr. Sheppard is already good friends with him and he knows all the neighbors, all this kind of stuff. In the book, it's so much nicer to have this fresh introduction to Poirot, into the village. And from the perspective of Dr. Sheppard instead of the perspective of Poirot.

Carolyn Daughters: 25:54

Can I ask you this, Eli, because you've seen the Akroyd David Suchet recently... Okay, so that actually changes a lot of things. So let's say Sheppard knows Poirot. They've been living next door to each other. They deliver vegetable marrows to each other and things like this, right? We're having a dinner party come over. How either dense or arrogant would Sheppard have to be in that film version to commit a murder living next to Poirot. You know who he is.

Sarah Harrison: 26:28

And murdering his buddy.

Carolyn Daughters: 26:29

But in the book, he doesn't know who Poirot is. I was wondering if he had known who he was living next to, would that have changed what he did and why?

Eli Milliman: 26:44

In the film version, Poirot actually narrates the story instead of Dr. Sheppard.

Sarah Harrison: 26:52

What? That's the whole thing.

Eli Milliman: 26:55

But Poirot is narrating it from Dr. Sheppard's journal. So he's sitting down and reading it. It's kind of tricky, because he's reading it, but he has also described Dr. Sheppard without revealing that it's Dr. Sheppard who he's describing. But he describes this person as basically what you just said. He's this egotistical, maniacal person. He looks down on everyone else. He has all these terrible things to say about other people. And it's very overt. Whereas in the book, he's kind of sideways saying these things. And it's only later that Poirot pours over Dr. Sheppard's manuscript, and he realizes what a great job that the doctor has done in telling the truth. But Dr. Sheppard has left out enough detail to not incriminate himself. He has never strayed from the truth, he has just omitted a lot of these things. And instead of doing that in the TV show, it's like his journal is just straight out telling everybody exactly how he feels about everything. He's just basically confessing to murder.

Carolyn Daughters: 28:21

The one direct line in the book that Dr. Sheppard says is, I don't know where Ralph Paton is. Now, the funny thing is, at that point, Poirot had already reclaimed Ralph Paton and hidden him away. But at this point, Sheppard doesn't know that. So that's an overt lie of Sheppard's. But for the most part, Sheppard sticks to the truth, but he's very careful. The word "careful" is used a bunch of times in this book, and he's really careful about what he says and how he says it.

Eli Milliman: 28:53

What's funny about that line is that he thinks he's telling a lie, but he's actually telling the truth. He actually doesn't know where Ralph Paton is.

Sarah Harrison: 29:02

That's true. Eli, I was thinking about your podcast in relationship to this question. I don't know if this is actually related, but I just wondered. So you're picking out topics for everything you hate about yourself. Is it hard? Do you feel like any of these things are things that perhaps you had an impulse to hide? And does that trigger you wanting to talk about it, or not related?

Eli Milliman: 29:30

I'll give you the shortest version of how this podcast came to be. Probably about 10 years ago, I told my wife, I really want to rid myself of hypocrisy. And I know that's not an overnight thing. I knew that would be a long journey. The podcast directly came about from being a guest on someone else's podcast, and we were talking about movies that have been really popular in the last couple years about multiverse versions of ourselves. The topic came up, what would you do if you met a multiverse version of yourself? And I said, Oh, I would just punch him in the face. And the other person was laughing, and they were just like, why would you do that? I said, because I know. After I punch him, he'd know, too. It wouldn't be a fight. He'd just be like, yeah, I deserve that. We had a good laugh about that. That thought just inspired me to say, Okay, there's actually a lot of things that I really should punch myself in the face about. Maybe not even things specifically today, but over the years. Things that I've thought, things that I've said, things that I've done. And while my podcast is not exactly a confessional, it is tracking who I have been and what I'm trying to be and how literature, film, philosophy, and other people have influenced that. I think the most direct correlation I can make is one of the episodes is actually an apology to my younger brother, who is gay. And when I was younger, growing up in a very conservative Christian household, I had certain ideas about homosexuality, that I completely disagree with today. And he knows that, and I'm sure he doesn't need or want an apology for anything. And it wasn't like I was trying to pick on him or be terrible to him. But I just had these ideas, and I know that I held opinions that I just hate myself for now. Because of how it probably made him feel ostracized and made him feel like he had to hide himself from us. And so that would be an example of one of the episodes where I'm just directly confronting something that, man oh, man, if I could go back in time and just grab myself by the shoulders and just give myself a good shake, boy, would I.

Sarah Harrison: 32:29

When I think about stuff I don't like about myself, I think those are the things we often -- unless I'm making a joke or something -- have a tendency to hide. So I thought it was really interesting that you base your whole podcast on it.

Eli Milliman: 32:45

On airing my dirty laundry. It's almost more about thought pattern. The podcast, I do try to make it a continuum. You guys are doing the history of mystery. I'm doing the history of my thought pattern.

Sarah Harrison: 33:12

Yours doesn't rhyme like ours.

Eli Milliman: 33:14

No, I know. It doesn't have the same ring to it. So I'm going through a bunch of episodes, for example, dedicated to ridding myself of binary thought. Showing how even from my childhood being a big fan of adventure stories like Treasure Island, I was already conditioned to rid myself of binary thought, and yet I was still trapped in it. And I'm still trapped in it today, for the most part, thinking this or that, good or bad, what have you. Ridding myself of that slowly over time has been such a project. But it has been so healthy for me and mind expanding for me to at least try to not think in those terms. It's not a confessional of specific sins. It's more about, I really hate the way that I used to and still do think sometimes.

Sarah Harrison: 34:25

I went on at length in this little summary that Carolyn and I wrote up about vegetable marrows.

Eli Milliman: 34:36

Well, I'm a vegetarian.

Sarah Harrison: 34:38

I know I thought this would be good for you. Have you had a vegetable marrow? Did you know what it was before reading?

Eli Milliman: 34:42

I didn't. I looked it up.

Sarah Harrison: 34:45

I looked it up, too.

Eli Milliman: 34:47

I was like vegetable marrows. Okay. I assumed it was some kind of squash when I was reading it.

Sarah Harrison: 34:51

I thought it was something like squash and bone marrow were combined in my mind. I was like, what kind of crazy marrows of squashes could this be. And then it's only one, except, I guess, for the British there are two kinds of zucchinis. Small zucchinis, which are courgettes, and the ones you leave on the vine too long, which are marrows. I don't feel like I've seen one over here or bought one. That's not a differentiation that we make. Or am I wrong about that?

Eli Milliman: 35:30

I don't think we call them marrows over here. We'll just say it's a prize winning zucchini at the local fair.

Sarah Harrison: 35:38

They start to look different. They get the stripy look, and I thought they would taste bad. They eat them a little differently, but I thought that was so weird. Have you had the overgrown zucchini?

Eli Milliman: 35:50

I don't think so. When I go shopping for vegetables and root vegetables especially, I'm always looking for smaller ones because they're always less starchy and more tender. I want to eat babies. That's what I tell people. I want to eat babies. I don't want to eat old people.

Sarah Harrison: 36:09

I thought that was funny too, because I thought maybe marrows was maybe a category. But it's just one vegetable. It's just one oversized zucchini, and he's dedicating his retirement to it. And he's full of emotions and throwing them over the fence. Is there one vegetable that you would dedicate your retirement to? That's my question.

Carolyn Daughters: 36:36

No.

Sarah Harrison: 36:38

If you could only grow one vegetable, what would it be?

Eli Milliman: 36:46

Well, technically, it's a fruit but I would grow cherry tomatos. Picking those right off the vine in the garden is my favorite.

Sarah Harrison: 36:56

That is a good one.

Carolyn Daughters: 36:59

And if I said squash, could it be a variety of squash?

Sarah Harrison: 37:02

No, Eli's really putting too much variation in his answer.

Eli Milliman: 37:08

I know. I've already ruined a whole experiment.

Carolyn Daughters: 37:15

Maybe a butternut squash.

Sarah Harrison: 37:16

Yeah, squash. I also looked up the BBC's top five marrow recipes. Well, squashes are versatile. So they had slow-cooked marrow with fennel and tomato. Maple roasted marrow on cavolo nero salad. Marrow and pecan cake with maple icing. Marrow and ginger jam, stuffed marrow bake. I'm gonna put that link in the podcast.

Carolyn Daughters: 37:46

I don't normally get my recipes from anywhere in Britain.

Sarah Harrison: 37:50

I do sometimes.

Eli Milliman: 37:52

As a general rule, that's wise.

Sarah Harrison: 37:57

I don't know why I'm fascinated. If you listen to some of the other podcasts, I go on at length about the food mentioned in some of the books, and what is it? And why is it?

Carolyn Daughters: 38:05

What vegetable would you grow?

Sarah Harrison: 38:07

I don't know. After reading all these, yeah, the squash is pretty versatile. You can make a cake with it. You can make a salad.

Eli Milliman: 38:16

One of my favorites is zucchini bread.

Sarah Harrison: 38:21

You can get your little spiralizer and make zucchini spaghetti out of it.

Carolyn Daughters: 38:25

The butternut squash soup that I make is so good. It's just some boullon, some seasonings, some garlic. I throw in some leeks. I brown the squash in the oven for about an hour. Blend that whole thing together, and it is filling. It feels savory. It feels like home. And it's healthy.

Sarah Harrison: 38:56

I don't know. Once I found out what a marrow was, I was like, really? He went and just retired to grow marrows in an unknown place.

Carolyn Daughters: 39:08

He went to a random town and decides he's going to grow marrows. I mean, it just seems a little strange to me.

Eli Milliman: 39:19

I think it makes it easy for him to jump back into action out of retirement because you can see what a waste of his talents this is. And per his own report, he doesn't have any talent for it.

Sarah Harrison: 39:35

Zucchini I think is like one of the easiest things to grow, too, but maybe marrows are harder.

Eli Milliman: 39:41

If you don't have a green thumb, grow zucchini.

Sarah Harrison: 39:44

Leave it on the vine too long, and you have a marrow? Why don't we have more categories for the same vegetable? That's what I want to know. The old one and the young one. I want to be more precise.

Eli Milliman: 39:58

An ageist attitude.

Sarah Harrison: 40:00

You've got to differentiate in your recipe, because I think with the marrow you're supposed to take the skin off, and the zucchini is baby enough that you can eat it.

Carolyn Daughters: 40:12

One thing I thought was really interesting is how Poirot is retired, though, that seems to not last very long. And two of the characters come into money. Major Blunt and also Dr. Sheppard. Sheppard doesn't tell us but for some reason he's openly mentioning it, which I thought was really weird. Like, oh, I came into a legacy, I came into some money. Sheppard wanted to travel, and Poirot decides he's going to grow marrow. I hear people talk about, "well, if I had the means, I would do this thing." Whatever the thing is. Like I would travel the world, or I would write a book, or I would start a band, or I would move to some weird town in England and start growing vegetables. Either you do it like Poirot, and then it's not all it's cracked up to be, because you realize you miss what you were doing. Or, like the two guys who had the money, you for one reason or another don't do it. You don't travel the world, you end up speculating your cash, which both of these guys did and losing it all. It makes Sheppard to me come across as sort of foolish. I hear a lot of people talking about what they would do on this magical day when they win the lottery or whatever. And I always wonder, would they? If they did win the lottery, would they do whatever that thing is.

Eli Milliman: 42:01

I think normally, people want security more than anything. So if they win the lottery, they're going to buy the house. Instead of traveling the world, they're going to make sure that they have security into their old age. What's interesting about Blunt and Sheppard is they do make these investments that go south. They decide, Oh, I've got money, let's make that money make more money.

Sarah Harrison: 42:34

I think that's a lot of people, though. You just want the money. And when you get it, you still want the money. Iit doesn't change your desire. Your desire is the money to begin with.

Eli Milliman: 42:46

That probably says right there. Once you get the money, you want the money. And that loses the purpose of the money. To your point. It's like, Well, what was the purpose of this money was to enable me to do this. But actually, the purpose of the money was to get more money.

Carolyn Daughters: 43:04

I'm going to speculate in Australian mines or whatever Sheppard does, and hope that that takes off. If that had taken off, then would he have left? I mean, for goodness sake, he's still living with his sister. He's 50.

Sarah Harrison: 43:23

That seems to be a common spinster setup, I will say, though. I mean, in these British books, there's a lot of sisters that live together.

Carolyn Daughters: 43:30

If you didn't know that they were brother/sister, you might think that they were married. They're like, Oh, we're having company over on Friday. We're gonna play Mahjong. They're like an old married couple. Was he ever really going to do the things that he said he wanted to do?

Sarah Harrison: 43:52

I would say he was not. There's a proverb that

I really like: 43:54

he who loves silver will never be satisfied with silver. At the end, we know that he got the money from blackmail money. Not because he just happened to get a legacy and had a windfall.

Eli Milliman: 44:11

It's somebody else's legacy.

Sarah Harrison: 44:12

He got the money because he wanted the money. He's a wanter of money. And so then you'll just keep wanting it. I think you have to want something else.

Carolyn Daughters: 44:23

How did it work with Mrs. Ferrars where she had paid him off. At one point he invested the money poorly and then lost it. Had she given him more money, or did she commit suicide before she could give him more money?

Sarah Harrison: 44:37

My take was she committed suicide before the second round of money. Like, she gave him 20,000 pounds.

Carolyn Daughters: 44:44

I looked up 20,000 pounds in 1926. And I think it's worth more than a million dollars now. Is it possible he actually had more than a million dollars in 1925 and didn't do anything in the whole wide world he wanted to do? I don't understand it.

Sarah Harrison: 45:04

Because he's a blackmailer who love money. Flora got 20,000 pounds, that was her inheritance. And she was over the moon. She was like, I'm totally independent now. I can marry Major Blunt, my love.

Eli Milliman: 45:17

You know, it's funny, in 2023 a million dollars just really doesn't sound like that much anymore. If I inherited a million dollars right now, I couldn't retire. I'd still have to work? I mean, that'd be a good nest egg for later, but it doesn't set me up for life at all. I'm just thinking about expenses for all of my kids. They're either just graduating high school and entering university and stuff like that. Or they're just kind of on their way. My youngest is going in eighth grade next year, just so that puts it in perspective. All I think about now is how much money my kids are going to need to get started in life. A million dollars isn't going to cut it?

Carolyn Daughters: 46:27

No, not with five children. I think that really changes that equation for sure. But yeah, I think as a contemporary reader or modern reader coming to this book and seeing 20,000 pounds, unless we understand what that is, it's like, oh, well, she threw him some cash. And he blew it. And now he's asking for more cash. Like she actually set him up in 1926.

Eli Milliman: 46:52

She did, yeah.

Carolyn Daughters: 46:53

That was the real deal. And instead of traveling the world, he speculated, apparently, most or all of it in this weird scheme and lost it. To me, it made him seem foolish in a way that probably Poirot recognized, but maybe other people didn't. Because he's the doctor, you know, the wise doctor?

Eli Milliman: 47:16

That's a good observation. I actually didn't think of that when I was reading the book. That Poirot probably read into him losing that money as part of his character.

Sarah Harrison: 47:31

It's a weird conversational piece that he brought up multiple times. And that one's really easy to check in on. Like, hey, Caroline. She would know, right? Did you get a legacy? No ...

Carolyn Daughters: 47:43

Sheppard keeps mentioning it every time. Like every person who mentioned the legacy, like Blunt, Sheppard would be like, Yep, I know what you mean, I had a legacy, too. Like, shut up, you idiot. Quit talking about your legacy. That's all it would take is just to confirm that with Caroline, right? Like, hey, Caroline, did your brother get this legacy? She'd be like, I would have known about it because I'm Caroline, and my intelligence Corp and I would have known.

Eli Milliman: 48:12

I think if he had not been the narrator of the story, Dr. Sheppard, then I think the average reader would catch on to that a lot quicker. But since he's our doctor Watson, we're not thinking about it. We're thinking, oh, he had an unfortunate investment. Some people were probably more astute than I was.

Sarah Harrison: 48:38

I don't think anyone is.

Eli Milliman: 48:39

I wasn't putting a lot of weight in that at all because I was trusting my narrator.

Sarah Harrison: 48:45

Did you know, the twist was coming at the end, or did it catch you by surprise?

Eli Milliman: 48:50

It actually did catch me by surprise. And I'm quite often, I'm very frustrated when I watch mystery film and TV because I'm just like, oh, they did it. There's just this stupid twist. I see it coming from a mile away, and it's just dumb. But I honestly didn't see Dr. Sheppard as the murderer. Right up until the last chapter or so when everything's being revealed. And I was like, Oh, okay. And it was funny because my gut reaction to that was feeling cheated.

Sarah Harrison: 49:27

Really?

Eli Milliman: 49:28

Yeah. Because I felt like I had trusted my narrator the whole time. And now you come to find out your narrator has been lying to you the whole time. And I saw at once the genius of that twist and also felt like, hey, that wasn't fair. We're not on equal ground anymore. And that's something that oftentimes frustrates me when I'm either reading or watching a mystery. As an audience member I want to be on equal ground with the characters in in the mystery so that I can be trying to solve it at the same time. And then I feel like the ground has shifted, and they've been hiding things from me so that I couldn't possibly have guessed it. And I'm like, wait a minute, you cheated. You cheated.

Sarah Harrison: 50:20

That's the tricky thing with this, though, too. This was my second reading of The Murder of Roger Ackroyd. And the first reading just blew me away. What, Sheppard? I think I mentioned before that the movie that ultimately has the twist is The Sixth Sense. Like, he was a ghost the whole time.

Carolyn Daughters: 50:39

Spoiler.

Eli Milliman: 50:40

That's actually a perfect example. When the kid first says, "I see dead people," I was like, "oh, Bruce Willis is dead."

Sarah Harrison: 50:46

Oh, well, you're good. They got me.

Eli Milliman: 50:49

It was the first thought that popped into my mind. And then when it got to the end, I was like, what's this big twist everybody's talking about?

Sarah Harrison: 50:56

It totally got me. I didn't see it coming. And that was the same way with Ackroyd. I always wondered if I would go back, would I see all those clues there that Christie was planting that I didn't see the first time.

Carolyn Daughters: 51:09

But in the second reading you did.

Sarah Harrison: 51:11

I did. So I read it the second time, and I wondered is it just tricky? Was it impossible for me to know?

Carolyn Daughters: 51:19

I saw it, too, on the second reading.

Sarah Harrison: 51:21

It was glaring. It was just like he was screaming guilty on every page.

Carolyn Daughters: 51:27

I have like 50 markings throughout the book.

Sarah Harrison: 51:31

Which was so fascinating, because I thought maybe it was a trick. It was just the fact that he was the narrator. Otherwise, it was the most obvious conclusion. He sounded so guilty and weird and left so much stuff unsaid. And I was like, wow, I was really blinded by this narrator thing.

Eli Milliman: 51:52

It's interesting how this shift happens, right? When you know that he's the murderer, and now you go back and you hear the sinister voice throughout. Whereas before you didn't hear the sinister voice, you heard the country doctor voice.

Sarah Harrison: 52:09

It was a total shock. I had been taken in with everyone else. That was your experience, too, Carolyn?

Carolyn Daughters: 52:15

It was. I saw it everywhere. First person narrators are super common today. Probably most fiction is written first person. You're always getting the story channeled or funneled through some person's point of view. And the unreliable narrator is an established convention now. It's still controversial, and it has been. The first time I read an unreliable narrator was when I read Charlotte Bronte's Villette. In Villette, she meets up with this guy in the second half of the book and goes eons without telling the reader it's the same character that she grew up with that we've already met way earlier in the first pages of the book. And so some people call that one of the first instances, if not the first instance, of the unreliable narrator. There's this idea that the first person narrator is supposed to be completely honest and true. And comprehensive in the detail, whether it's big details or small, whatever the reader needs to know in order to understand something that first-person narrator is supposed to share it. Agatha Christie really turns this on its head here because on page one, Sheppard starts saying things on page one like, "To tell the truth, I was considerably upset and worried. I am not going to pretend that at that moment, I saw that ..." He keeps using this language over and over and over again. So if you weren't 100% sure that he's completely in the clear, his language reinforces how he's this really honest, upright guy.

Eli Milliman: 54:23

Gotcha. Yeah.

Sarah Harrison: 54:24

I think that's why this book made the list right for the unreliable narrator.

Carolyn Daughters: 54:31

We said in the intro, in 2013 the British Crime Writers Association voted it best crime novel ever written. The best mystery novel had to be on our list.

Sarah Harrison: 55:00

2013. Now that's amazing.

Eli Milliman: 55:02

Something I didn't know but learned when I was looking at commentaries about the book was that I think it was her brother's suggestion. Agatha Christie didn't even come up with the idea. His suggestion was. what if Watson was the murderer? He suggested this idea to her? And she really loved that. She was like, Okay. So that's what we got.

Sarah Harrison: 55:27

That's cool. Well, Eli, we are at time right now. This has been a fabulous conversation. And I hope you'll stay on.

Carolyn Daughters: 55:35

We have more to share.

Sarah Harrison: 55:36

We barely going through any of this material we have so much.

Carolyn Daughters: 55:39

We have 432 more pages of notes.

Sarah Harrison: 55:42

More marrow recipes to discuss.

Eli Milliman: 55:44

Most of it about vegetable marrows.

Carolyn Daughters: 55:46

Most of it's about British recipes for vegetable marrow, but other good stuff as well. Because this book's amazing. And quite possibly the best mystery novel ever written. We have a lot to share.

Sarah Harrison: 55:58

Come back, listeners, listen to episode two. Until then, stay mysterious.