77.⁠ ⁠Kyle and Jackie O, Contract PSA, Dunk Bait Circle of Life.

Hayley and Matt discuss:

For $10 million, is there any topic they wouldn’t tolerate the other talking about? What happens if you enter into a real estate contract and don’t understand all the terms? What is the life cycle of a viral video, and why should we be critical of how we engage with its different stages? Hayley makes mistakes, and that’s okay. Matt isn’t robotic. He just doesn’t like texting, which is fair.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hi, my name is Matthew. I'm a video maker, gym manager, and enthusiast. I enjoy talking to Hayley about things from the opposite side of the coin.

SPEAKER_05 0:10

I'm Hayley, gym enthusiast, thankfully an approver, horse writer, a bit of a smart-mouth introvert. I like hearing Matt's views on all kinds of topics. Hey friend.

SPEAKER_01 0:27

Welcome to episode 77 of the Oh Hey Friend Podcast.

SPEAKER_05 0:31

So excited to be here with you today.

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Always a pleasure. We're back. We were last time. We're even more back this time.

SPEAKER_05 0:37

We're even more back every time.

SPEAKER_01 0:39

Yes. Today's episode. Yes. Sponsored by CoStar. No, not really.

SPEAKER_05 0:46

It's been four years, and I think we're on the cusp of being sponsored by CoStar.

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Yeah. On the cusp? Yeah. Yeah? Cool. Alright. So, guys, thanks for listening. Welcome back to the episode. So today we have a bunch of small talk up top. Me and Hallie have not discussed what they are at all. I don't know what she's going to bring up to me. I don't know what she's going to bring up to her. She doesn't know what I'm going to bring up to her. You don't know what you're going to bring up to me. I know what I'm going to bring up to you. I've written it down. Actually, you know one of them. I've already spoken about it briefly. But the main topic today is called the dunk bait life cycle.

SPEAKER_05 1:21

Yeah, this is something that came to me quite recently. So I'm looking forward to fleshing it out with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:27

Yes. And that's that's it. Let's just dive on. I've written down, okay, we won't get to it.

SPEAKER_05 1:32

But I've also, I know This is your favorite thing to do. Like um just really shoot for the stars, like set an ambitious goal.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

The reason why we probably won't get to it is because um we we got to talk about it a lot last time, but there is an an AI topic that I am interested in.

SPEAKER_05 1:48

Okay. I love hearing your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_01 1:50

But it's very heavy, and we I know we like I don't want to become like an AI podcast, but like so I've just written here AI in war on my OMG.

SPEAKER_05 1:57

Yeah, just a light subject to finish off with.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

That's a thing. So yeah. Anyway, so small talk. Let's begin. Oh, can I start?

SPEAKER_05 2:07

Yeah, you can.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Okay, so my small I got four, but we'll start with we'll go we'll alternate. Okay. Okay. So my first small talk today. Haley, what would you say or think if I told you that some of the conversations that we've had over WhatsApp, you were actually talking to an AI agent and not in fact me?

SPEAKER_05 2:24

I wouldn't pass away from shock. Sometimes your responses seem AI-like.

SPEAKER_01 2:31

So my question is, um, what is my question? Yeah. Did you have had did at any point in time over the last month, did you did did you question whether or not I was speaking whether you were speaking to an AI or not? Did it even cross your mind?

SPEAKER_05 2:48

Probably not. Was I speaking to an AI? But um sometimes it crosses my mind, um, Matt's putting a lot of effort into being very polite here. Potentially I've just blown you up about something else. I don't know. And then you're like very, very polite. So uh are you talking to me with an AI agent?

SPEAKER_01 3:09

No. I'm gaslighting it.

SPEAKER_05 3:11

Are you asking an AI agent, how do I respond to this message politely?

SPEAKER_01 3:16

Also, no. But I think just because of the AI stuff, I the fact that I can ask that question and you be unsure isn't is is an interesting tell.

SPEAKER_05 3:24

Yeah, and I think about it, I'm like, would I be offended? And I think that's the thing. And I I think I would get offended if my friend started talking to me with AI because I don't like the idea of outsourcing like connection in that way. Of course. Like if it's work stuff or if it's I don't know, um actually I don't know. I don't I don't even mind like when we get a bit of help framing a question or a discussion using AI. But uh yeah, I would get offended if someone started talking to me with an AI agent.

SPEAKER_01 3:54

So it's just a little social experiment I'm running with people at the moment. So I I've chatted on a few people where I'm like, hey, by the way, that last week I was it was the AI you're talking to. And that and it's really interesting to watch people go, oh, and almost and actually almost believe it.

SPEAKER_05 4:10

What does that tell you about uh your interactions with people?

SPEAKER_01 4:15

It tells me no, don't it's not that. Um it tells me that we're at a level, we're at a point now where people it's it's getting so good that people would actually believe it's possible.

SPEAKER_05 4:25

Yeah, I'm sure I believe it was possible.

SPEAKER_01 4:26

It's really just what I'm testing.

SPEAKER_05 4:28

Yeah. I do think AI still has that way of talking to you, you know, like, thanks, Matt. That's a great question kind of way.

SPEAKER_01 4:36

But in text you can't really tell.

SPEAKER_05 4:39

Sure.

SPEAKER_01 4:40

Yeah. That's why why I'm t testing it that way.

SPEAKER_05 4:42

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

You know what? I'll I'm gonna take your your little swing on board. It probably does say a little bit about my interactions with people. Hey. I will take that on board. I accept it. Maybe I am a little bit robotic myself. Um I I I I mean, I said it out loud, but I don't believe it.

SPEAKER_05 4:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:59

Um Am I robotic? Is OCO? No.

SPEAKER_05 5:02

And the way you're saying it makes me think that uh I've accidentally criticized you and I didn't mean to do that.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

No, no, I'm open to it. I'm open to it.

SPEAKER_05 5:10

Um That's the end of my No, I don't think you're robotic. I think you get um lose patience for applying to messages.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

That's good. Good answer how I would say that. I lose patience for applying to messages. I do. Okay, let's do yours.

SPEAKER_05 5:23

Do my small talk? Yeah. Yeah, okay, cool. Um so uh the s I mean the small talk, small talk that I have is um I've been doing a fair bit of um flying for work lately and a little bit of uh things that make me uncomfortable that I'm a bit scared of. I had to sit on a panel and speak in front of like I don't know, 70 people at this conference the other day. It's a bit scary. And so um I've been and flying, I don't like flying, I'm scared of flying. Um so I've been doing a lot of, I don't know if you've ever heard this before, where uh excitement and anxiety are very adjacent feelings. And so you can quite easily turn anxiety into excitement. So I've been trying to convince myself that I'm excited about flying. I'm excited about turbulence. I'm excited when the plane randomly dips to the side for no explicable reason, you know? I'm trying to gaslight myself into enjoying this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 6:20

Cool. So I'm gaslighting you, you're gaslighting you.

SPEAKER_05 6:23

Yeah. Let's see what my mental stability is like by the time we do another podcast.

SPEAKER_01 6:29

Is there anything in that that you want me to respond to in terms of the excitement, nervousness?

SPEAKER_05 6:34

All right. What's your theory on how successful that attempt might be? You know? Do you think I'm gonna succeed, or you think, nah, Haley, it's you're probably just gonna still worry about this.

SPEAKER_01 6:44

Are you genuinely afraid of flying?

SPEAKER_05 6:45

Um yeah, I get very anxious, but I have to do it.

SPEAKER_01 6:48

So And like what like because we spoke about anxiety a few podcasts ago, and like we talked about like what that actually is, and it's just like your heart rate goes up and then eventually it has to come down. Yeah. Like what a does like it can stay high for a fair amount of time. Yeah, but eventually it comes down. Does it come down on the plane or does it come down once you get off the plane?

SPEAKER_05 7:08

Yeah, on the plane, once it um is sort of cruising, then I'm I'm pretty cool.

SPEAKER_01 7:13

Are you anxious about the people about like the f the flying itself or being on the like being around people? Um Because for me it's the the latter. Like the thing that the thing that bothers me about flying is not at all the actor flying. It's the it's the human the zoo that is the plane.

SPEAKER_05 7:30

Oh, okay, and all the things that they're doing.

SPEAKER_01 7:33

As as someone who is very particular.

SPEAKER_05 7:36

They could be there eating chicken. I was meant to be rich, I'm telling you.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

I was supposed to be rich. So that you could be in business. Everything was supposed to be laid out and scal concrete concrete buildings and you know, like uh It's probably for the best that you weren't, you know. Yeah, definitely. So so um but what I'm getting at is uh what is what what are you actually anxious about?

SPEAKER_05 7:59

Um I think I just don't have any control over what the plane is doing. And so every time it does something, I'm like, why is it doing that?

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Okay. But you but you ri you ride horses.

SPEAKER_05 8:09

Uh yeah. And look at your brain deciding.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Well you spoke about not having control.

SPEAKER_05 8:17

And I feel like you're meant to have control over what the horse is doing. That's the whole point. It's part of it.

SPEAKER_01 8:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 8:22

But flying, you're just sitting there. Like horse riding, you are not just sitting there in having no influence whatsoever.

SPEAKER_01 8:28

Okay. What about a train then?

SPEAKER_05 8:30

Um trains don't um leave the ground. Okay. That's probably it.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

So that's a part of it. That's a part of it. That's what I'm trying to decipher. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 8:36

What makes it different?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Being off the ground.

SPEAKER_05 8:38

Yeah. I think it's it's all the noises it makes. Like I like to be able to know like it's taking off, so it's making this noise, and then the wheels will go up, that's that noise, and then it's turning, that's you know, like an I know what it's doing. And then it'll like hit a pocket of air or something, and it'll bounce or kind of dip. And I'm like, that wasn't in the schedule. Why did it do that? Is that good? Is that bad?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

Well, I you know what I'm actually like in my head just then was like, stop trying to fix it. I'm all I'm gonna say is like, that's okay, Haley. You can try and fix it if you want. I'm open to suggesting. I mean, there's n I my brain is like trying to create ways to rationalise it for you, but I'm like, I'm not gonna like I can see there's no point. Yeah, I don't know if I'm it's not like so. I'm gonna I'm gonna not do that. I'm fighting every instinct within me to not do that.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

What were you gonna say? Like, Hayley, it it's fine.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

Well, I was gonna do like the classic like um mansplaining where I was gonna like use like adjacent examples and be like, so you worked about this, you know, it's only one step away from that. Yeah. Um and I had I I was starting to go there, but I I just stopped off. I was like, like it is what it is. I get anxious about walking around shopping centres.

SPEAKER_05 9:41

So that's hard. You have to do that a lot more than flying.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Um and so people people have tried to explain to me, you know, like you have no issue walking around the gym floor, you know, like and I was like, it's different, it's different, it's different, it's different. So it's so true. Thanks for sharing.

SPEAKER_05 9:57

Um yeah, so I'll let you know how I go with trying to reframe anxiety as excitement, see if that's successful.

SPEAKER_01 10:02

Yeah, will that be reframe anxiety as excitement? That is I wonder what a psychologist's opinion on that would be like. Is that a is that a healthy, quote unquote healthy mental approach to it? I think it might be. Distraction. They like distractions are a powerful thing.

SPEAKER_05 10:23

Distraction is a good idea, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:25

Like when you go through a breakup, you you you distract yourself.

SPEAKER_05 10:28

You take up a bunch of hobbies and you, you know, get really focused on one another.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

So that's not too dissimilar to what you're trying to do, right?

SPEAKER_05 10:34

Okay. Yeah, I mean uh yeah, yeah. I'll I can try distraction and as well as my trying to reframe it as excitement. I'll see how I go. I gotta fly tomorrow, so I'll have, you know, an immediate opportunity to practice this. Yeah, cool. I also try just like taking whatever sedatives I can to try and like crank myself. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

I um That completely that changes everything.

SPEAKER_05 11:02

It's only a short flight, so you can't go too crazy.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

But I'm terrified of those of those things.

SPEAKER_05 11:08

Oh, really? So you think you won't wake up again? Or you think you'll get uh like monetate them all at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 11:15

I'm like, yeah, I need I just need to be as neutral as possible, as as often as possible.

SPEAKER_05 11:20

Yeah, yeah. You just gotta do what's best for yourself. I'm I'm lucky I don't um get I don't feel the need to then chase that feeling again. Um So I think that's okay. I think it's a reasonable strategy for flying for me to use that.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

I tried half a I think I had a Xanax once. Yeah and it felt I was like, this is the best feeling on the planet.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

Really? Um I uh what did I have? Maybe chimazopam or something? And I was on a on a plane and it did I don't it was like it did nothing. I was like, I'm I'm gonna jump out the window. I need it, and so I took another one and then I was unconscious.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

That's such a classic drug taking story. Like I can't feel it. That's such a mushroom story. That's is it working? Is it working? Is it working? No, I take more boom. That's off in a never land.

SPEAKER_05 12:07

Elasp in my approach to um substances in the past, so I tend to avoid at all costs.

SPEAKER_01 12:13

I would love to do mushrooms again.

SPEAKER_05 12:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

And off topic. Um okay, thanks for sharing that. And um, can I move on to my next one?

SPEAKER_05 12:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

Okay, the next one. Uh Kyle and Jackie O.

SPEAKER_05 12:24

Oh yeah, they split up, they had a fight. They had a fight. They've failed on their contract.

SPEAKER_01 12:29

The reason why this is interesting to me is because we've got a male and a female presenter of a radio station, a very popular one, Nova, 969, I believe, or whatever it is in Sydney. I have no idea. Um and they had like a I was watching that. I didn't watch the actual fall part, but the the news story. But and so sorry, what happened is that Jackie O like got real angry. They've had a few tips before, but they had like a very public one on air. And it was about astrology.

SPEAKER_05 12:57

Like Jackie O's really into stars.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

Jackie O's really started. So you can see my parallels starting to start form. You're into astrology. Yeah, you're a girl, I'm a guy. Like, we like we we do I was like, I can't I got so anyway, I was kind of like seeing it and I was like, huh. Like it is like it is a hard thing. I think what we're doing is a hard thing. Yeah. Um, in terms of like the dynamic of the this type of podcast when it comes to like there's like the bro podcast and the girl podcasts, and this particular version is is actually I think it's very hard. So thank you, Haley, for going on the journey with me. That's so nice. But the joke is, which I've already told you, but I want to tell everyone else. So I was like, I was like, we could do that job. Like we could like Nova, yo.

SPEAKER_05 13:42

Also, for what was it?$200 million.

SPEAKER_01 13:44

Oh, yeah, sorry. So that they were two years into a$10 million contract.

SPEAKER_05 13:48

$200 million, Haley. Such an exaggerator. Um$10 million.$10 million.

SPEAKER_01 13:52

$10 million. A million dollars a year.

SPEAKER_05 13:54

For$10 million, yeah. Um you could listen to me talk about star science for a bit.

SPEAKER_01 13:59

I would shut everything like that's enough money for for me to never fucking throw a tantrum at you ever again.

SPEAKER_05 14:08

I I would listen to you talk about Chris Williamson for hours if I got 10 million bucks. I'd be like, great. Exactly. Love it. He's my favourite podcaster.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

So that kind of tells me where they're at because like if they're willing to like fucking they're willing to blow the whole thing up. I just feel like they're not grateful for what they've got. Like they're the leaders in our industry, you know what? Well, me and you are we're trying to be them. We're like that that we what we can only dream. Um hopefully we we can dream of making that type of money doing this one day. And they've done it, they're doing it, and they're willing to they're willing to throw it all out over astrology of all things, which is the one thing that we crush, absolutely dominate in this podcast.

SPEAKER_05 14:47

At astrology, it's so true.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Um That's that that's my small talk.

SPEAKER_05 14:51

Yeah, no, that's a really good point. I mean, it does show how out of touch those kind of people are with reality. Yeah. Um we're going through an inflationary crisis, a housing crisis, and they're having a cry over astrology when they could have 10 million bucks.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Yeah. It's not impressive. But this is how the world works, you know, the the top the the people. It's the game.

SPEAKER_05 15:10

We can't we can't complain about the rules of the game. We've just got to do our best to win it.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

So I see an opportunity.

SPEAKER_05 15:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:16

Um Do you have another one? Small talk?

SPEAKER_05 15:19

I have I have a little bit of a I wanted to talk about. Do you want to talk about yours first?

SPEAKER_01 15:23

Uh no, you go. We've got alternating. Yeah. One more each.

SPEAKER_05 15:26

I wanted to talk about quickly. So um I do know a couple of people who are in the um house buying game. They're buying a house right at the moment. Um, I know you're gonna buy a house.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Um I want to be able to buy a house, I'll be buying a unit or an apartment.

SPEAKER_05 15:41

Um, so you're gonna buy a unit or an apartment, same rules apply.

SPEAKER_01 15:44

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 15:44

Um, I obviously I work in banking, so I w work with um contracts of sale and settlement. I see them quite regularly. Um so this example came up on on my TikTok, of course, of a uh, I guess a sales contract gone wrong. And I thought it was super fascinating, and I guess I just want to get your opinion on the fairness of it.

SPEAKER_01 16:05

Okay. Is this to scare me away from trying to do this thing?

SPEAKER_05 16:08

It's I think the point of this discussion is people when you're signing contracts know what you're signing.

SPEAKER_01 16:14

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 16:14

Know what clauses are in there, know what the rules are, know who you can trust to advise you on what to do with the contract.

SPEAKER_01 16:22

Excellent.

SPEAKER_05 16:22

So the example I have is um a buyer signed a contract requiring a hundred thousand dollar deposit the following day to signing the contract. So that's their deposit due next day. These clauses can vary. It could be due, it could be five percent due within a week or something. You know, the specifics can be different. This one was a hundred grand next day. This buyer signed the contract, super confident. I've got a hundred grand, I'll have it to you next day. Alas, when they went to transfer the funds, their bank said, sorry, your transfer limit's 50 grand.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

That's such a like a rookie ATM maneuver. Why? Like everyone's like, I'll just get money out for the event, and then they're like, their bank's like, you can only get$500 out of the fucking ATM. Exactly. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_05 17:10

And these are all things that you can change, but you have to be prepared. Yeah, right. You have to make sure that you That's not a quick fix, you know. No, and and this this was the whole problem. It I think it was a weekend maybe, so they couldn't get it sorted out on that day. Um and then the tough part of this is uh when they did get it sorted out and they were ready to transfer the funds, it was say two days later, um, they said to the real estate agent, I'm gonna transfer the money now, I'm ready to go. And the real estate agent real estate agent said, Okay. So they transferred the money. Um, alas, this was two days. It wasn't the next day. Yeah. So the seller said, actually, fuck this contract. I'm not going through with it anymore, and I'm keeping your deposit.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Woo! Devastating. Well, yeah, I mean, I thought that's where we were going with it, but it was like, but that's not how the deposit system works, right? Like you have to sue you have now, you have to sue to get it back, basically.

SPEAKER_05 18:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:03

Which is just a fuck around.

SPEAKER_05 18:05

And this is the thing. If you uh default on your contract, the buyer does get to keep the deposit. Yeah. Like that's the rules of the contract. So um the the buyer tried to take this to court and sue and say that's not fair. The real estate agent said I should transfer it, um, I should get it back. But the court ruled that the real estate agent saying okay doesn't override the rules of the contract.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

This world's fucked.

SPEAKER_05 18:32

It's tough, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 18:33

That's a f this that that is that does not pass any pub test anywhere.

SPEAKER_05 18:37

Aaron Powell It's really tough because it's it's so unfair. Like you would think the sophistication of a real estate agent, you would rely on their um what they say, right? If they say okay, you would go, okay, they know what they're doing, this is their business. Um when really they're probably not thinking about it. They've probably got 50 other contracts that they're looking at that day. Um also the integrity of the seller, you might think, who would do that to someone? Who would take a hundred grand off them in this case? Like that's their savings. They're trying to get the other thing.

SPEAKER_01 19:05

Well, they don't have a personal brand to protect, you know. Like if this was a business, it's a different thing. The businesses would never pull that off. But I guess when it comes to like real estate, it's like an indiv it's like a you know, a person-to-person thing. So if as as long as you can sleep at night, it doesn't really I mean that's like I actually wonder whether that's an intentional strategy. It could be.

SPEAKER_05 19:27

I mean, yeah, maybe it's it's a pretty tight time frame. Normally I would say a week for a deposit. Um I'm not sure what percentage of the total amount, the hundred grand was either.

SPEAKER_03 19:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 19:39

Um and I if I was the seller, I don't I wouldn't do that. Like I couldn't take someone's hundred thousand dollars just because they were dumb and didn't know their bank's rules. Like I just wouldn't do it. Um I wouldn't be able to sleep at night doing that to someone. So I guess there's like there's probably people have probably different views there too. Like plenty of people would probably be like, Too bad sucker, you should have read your contract.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not on the too bad sucker, you should have read your contract side.

SPEAKER_05 20:05

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

I think I think maybe you thought I would be.

SPEAKER_05 20:08

Um, I don't know. I get yeah, so you definitely not. You uh you would give them their money back, you reckon?

SPEAKER_01 20:15

Um That I would like to be in that position, period. Well, this is I would like to be in that situation where I'm trying to sell a house that it needs a$100,000 deposit. And um uh so jokes aside, I mean, as usual, I'm sure there's more context. The other thing that I thought of is like, is this where did you say you found this information? Is this TikTok? TikTok, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 20:38

So a a lawyer was going through this. A lawyer was telling this. An interesting case case study. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:43

Okay. All right. Um, so I wonder whether the buyer like where is like it's is this actually it's it's fucked, but maybe like in the grand scheme of the people we're talking with, it actually doesn't matter. Like the money is somewhat relevant, like it's the principle of the matter, maybe. Potentially, yeah. So like I like I want like I think we transpose that onto ourselves. Yes. But I imagine that the buyer probably it doesn't sound like that that's someone who was also like out of like they I feel like they have money, they're just they're just got caught in technicality here.

SPEAKER_05 21:15

Like to me, a hundred grand is material, but maybe to this person they're like, whoops.

SPEAKER_01 21:20

I think it's a little less it's probably not as predatory as it sounds in terms of like a big man fucking a little man, it's probably like two big men each other. Trying to fuck each other, if that makes sense. Yeah. That's my that's my lack of context thought as well in terms of that situation. It's it's like you said, quote unquote, the game.

SPEAKER_05 21:37

Yeah, yep. Yeah. So I think the moral of that little story is just um when you're entering into these contracts, uh, you should always have your like settlement agent, your solicitor, view them before you sign it. And they can point things out like this to you. Yeah, and they're probably doing that. They're experience, right? So they're gonna say, make sure your bank has the capability to transfer this tomorrow. Like they'll remind you about stuff like that. Um Don't rely on the real estate agent to be doing it because they're not working for you. They're working for the seller. Um use someone who is working for you and being paid by you, you know. Um Yeah, that's that.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Thanks for the PSA. It reminded me of that time that I tried to educate everyone and you on uh keeping your passwords protected, you know? Yeah. Sometimes we just like to, you know, take care of the people, you know.

SPEAKER_05 22:26

Exactly. We'll have a PSA.

SPEAKER_01 22:28

Um All right, well I'm gonna keep my last one short. Have you watched Question Time at all recently or ever?

SPEAKER_05 22:34

I've do you know how question time is accidentally watched question time when I've been trying to watch something else.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

For those who don't know what question time is, um it's basically in Parliament when um in the Senate they can cross-examine each other, like the the the opposition and the and the and the and the government can the opposition asks the government questions about about things basically. Um so that's what question time is. And I remember the first time I watched it in like 2012 when I was watching the news, and I I was always a bit stunned at how ridiculous it is.

SPEAKER_05 23:06

Yeah, like we pay these people to do this.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, it's like it's it's very reminiscent of like a schoolyard, like kids like the they they say a thing and like they ask a question, the question gets deflected, the other side starts to make a lot of noise, and then they start being like, and the other side, they would this and they would that, and it's very strange. But the purpose of this is not that, because I'm used to that. Okay. Fuck that. The speaker of the house has caught my attention recently. The guy who's supposed to be managing what's going on.

SPEAKER_05 23:38

Oh, okay, who's supposed to be in charge.

SPEAKER_01 23:39

Yeah, his name's Milton Dick. He's hilarious.

SPEAKER_05 23:42

Okay. Bit of a character.

SPEAKER_01 23:44

I I I encourage anyone to watch Milton Dick organise this chaos. It's like it's like it's comedy. It's actual comedy. Because he's so he first of all, he looks like what his name sounds like.

SPEAKER_05 24:01

He looks like a Milton Dick.

SPEAKER_01 24:03

He looks like a Milton Dick. Um he's clearly so jaded. Like it's it's such a he's sick of that shit. But it's like the way the way you handle politicians doing this thing and the way he does it, I think is so funny. Um so if any so question time, shit show, but has kind of become more interesting to me now because this the lead the speaker of the house who's like has to like like or like when when they're talking, then someone will have like an order, and then he has to like, okay, your turn, like he has to organize what's going on, basically. And the way he organizes people is just so funny. It's kind of like okay, I don't think he is gay, but it reminds me of like a gay wedding planner.

SPEAKER_05 24:42

Just trying to direct all these dramatic personalities. It's perfect.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

It's like uh because I'm very certain he's like a very heterosexual, you know, like but the the the personality you have to take on to do this reminds me of the Milton Dick personality. It reminds me of a gay wedding planner. So just just a little fun thing for you. If you guys are ever watching ABC News 24 at 10 a.m. in the morning and you see the the question time come up, maybe just watch a bit longer because Milton Dick is hilarious.

SPEAKER_05 25:10

This sounds like the kind of thing that would kill in clips on TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

Well, I actually went, I saw before we started, I actually went to go look on, I was like, does this guy have like an online presence? Um and I was just searching his and I was like, no one's really clipping this up. It's I mean, yes, I think actually I didn't go on TikTok. I should maybe I should have searched Milton Dick on TikTok. Um maybe there is a world of this. So funny.

SPEAKER_05 25:32

If there's not, you should start it.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

Maybe I should.

SPEAKER_05 25:35

Yeah. Not even joke.

SPEAKER_01 25:36

Maybe that's a niche.

SPEAKER_05 25:37

Write that too.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

Hey Siri, no, I'm kidding. That's what that's what I normally do. Siri site. Oh, there's fucking there she is. She's she's here, she's here, by the way, guys. Okay, we did it. We got through it. 25 minutes of small talk. That's a new record. And let's move on to our actual main topic for today, which is dunk bait lifecycle. Let's go. I'm gonna be doing a lot of listening because Haley has all the facts. I have opinions, but Haley, you're in charge.

SPEAKER_05 26:04

I am so excited for the way that you're like psyching yourself up to really do this. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

To listen.

SPEAKER_05 26:09

Yeah, I appreciate this. Okay, so this topic, um, the t maybe start off with the etymology of the term dunk bait. I don't know how if anyone uses that. That's something I thought of. But we all know rage bait, right? Yes, Matt. Quick of a question.

SPEAKER_01 26:24

Just a quick thing before, because I'm not going to interrupt much. But just for those who listen often, you know how Haley has those like word-isms that she just fucking loves? Yeah. Shrinkflation. I I try can't try what are other examples of this? Like the the something this theory, the X and Y canundial.

SPEAKER_05 26:42

The name of a theory, the name of a Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:45

Loves it. Loves it. I I feel like uh lives for it. And dunk bait is just such a perfect example of a topic. Like I don't I don't I don't even think it would matter what it was about. Like the fact that Oh no, we're good. I just sorry, I thought we weren't recording for a second. Um I lost my train of thought. Anyway, carry on.

SPEAKER_05 27:06

You were um actually, I was wondering if you were about to bring up the fact you try, I think tried to say something nice to me, like, Haley, great, great, something about this is a classic Haleyism. I can see it in the title now.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

Haleyism.

SPEAKER_05 27:18

And I thought you were like dunking me. And I was like, don't criticize me, Matt. You're like, I literally just clapped you. What are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. When when Haley brought up the topic like dunk bait, and I was like, I was like, yeah, I again like back to my first question, like, would you be surprised if we were talking to a chat an AI chat agent or whatever, or that was actually me. I was like genuinely like, wow, that is such an amazing Haleyism. That's so nice. I'm sorry I ruined it. I was like defensive. I was like, no, I'm genuinely pumped that you found another one. Like, trust you to find amazing exam, like more versions of these funny little I guess we should do a whole epic No, but we won't, but like that the Haleyism in itself is funny. Thank you.

SPEAKER_05 27:58

That's so nice. I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 28:00

Carry on.

SPEAKER_05 28:01

Um, okay, so I was just gonna explain like dunk bait is a little different, but we know what rage bait is, right? Where someone purposely posts something uh in that's inflammatory intended to uh get you outraged and get you responding, polarize people, you know? So dunk bait is uh similar, but my theory is that these things get posted and they're kind of so ridiculous that it's inspires people to dunk on it, to make fun of it, to satirize it. So that's the the idea that we're gonna go through and explain here. Yeah. So should we go through, I guess, a bit of context about the video that I sent you that inspired this thought?

SPEAKER_01 28:43

Yeah. And just I want to acknowledge that this is actually this was sent to me a few weeks ago now. Yes. Like three weeks ago.

SPEAKER_05 28:50

So it's been through its life cycle.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

And it's been through the life cycle, and it's hilarious to watch it have played out the way that it did because I took notes about what I thought would happen, and then literally what I thought would happen happened, but like on a 10x scale.

SPEAKER_05 29:05

That's so awesome.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

And I want to hear if you I just I timestamped, I I'm so glad my notes are timestamped to say when I wrote this fact down.

SPEAKER_05 29:13

Show the evolution, yeah. And I'm so interested to see if you have different steps in the life cycle, or if you agree with what with what I've put down, or if you or if you see something different.

SPEAKER_01 29:23

So let me know. What is the original video?

SPEAKER_05 29:25

Yeah, so the original video is uh something posted on Instagram by the CEO of McDonald's doing a review of their latest burger. Now, this is something he does all the time. He has heaps of videos of him reviewing McDonald's products, talking about them, eating them, and none of them have blown up like this. So it's like, what is it about this one that's caused it to take off and get involved in this dunk bait type scenario? Um so I guess in the video, it's a reel of him trying uh the big arch. As you pointed out recently, Matt, I did forget what the actual name of the burger was that this was all about. Um but I've remembered it now. It's the big arch. Uh so I guess uh if I describe what we're seeing a little, and then I've actually got a clip from it so that people can listen to the audio and see if they notice anything strange about it. Yeah, yeah. So this is just a video of a guy um picking up a burger and eating it.

SPEAKER_01 30:27

I'll be stunned if you haven't already seen this. I I I have no doubt everyone who's listening has it seen a version of this.

SPEAKER_05 30:32

You reckon sometimes I don't know if this stuff just like passes my desk.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Uh a version of this.

SPEAKER_05 30:36

If I sent it to you, so it started going on on your social media.

SPEAKER_01 30:41

I don't know how popular it is. I think I think it I think it reached critical mass for sure.

SPEAKER_05 30:45

All right, well, I'm gonna attempt to play right now.

SPEAKER_01 30:49

Ladies and gentlemen, Haley playing. CEO. So we're gonna take a deep breath. We're in a rush. Haley fumbling the phone. Fumbling the headphone. Keep the headphones on because you'll be able to hear what's going on. And attempt number two of Haley playing the video. She looks upset. I'm not even gonna pretend to re-edit that. We're just gonna kick it, kick off on where we left off. Poor Haley. Alright, so now I'm gonna play the video into the microphone. So this is the video.

SPEAKER_00 31:30

This is something that we have tested already in Portugal, Germany, Canada. I love this product. It is so good. I'm gonna do a tasting right now, but I'm gonna eat this for my lunch, just so you know. So here we go. First, holy cow. God, that is a big burger.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

All right. Thanks for that clip, Haley. We got there.

SPEAKER_05 31:51

I think it um probably I think it probably adds a bit of context because you can hear some of the things that he's saying. Like, holy cow, that's a big burger. It sounds so kind of ingenuine, I guess. Like it it's kind of I mean, it's fine. It's normal size burger.

SPEAKER_01 32:08

The visual of what he's opened on the screen is like a normal-looking McDonald's burger. It has a few more like the colour, the the the bun looks a bit speckled, a bit different, like different, not just sesame seeds, I guess.

SPEAKER_05 32:18

Yeah, I suppose. Um, but you know, he's talking it up, and that kind of makes it funny. He also mentions that they've tested the product in countries like Portugal. Um, I think there was a lot of uh this kind of inspires a bit of joking around like, oh, you've tested it on like not main countries. Yeah, yeah. Just to see if it like kills them or something.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

Um Yeah, Portugal is an interesting c country to reference.

SPEAKER_05 32:43

Right? It feels a little bit random.

SPEAKER_01 32:45

A bit of middle ground Portugal. Portugal's like no one hates and no one loves them.

SPEAKER_05 32:48

Yeah. A little bit awkward.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

I love Portugal because they have that's where Ronaldo comes from. And like that, that was one of my favorite soccer teams.

SPEAKER_05 32:54

That's exciting.

SPEAKER_01 32:55

When I was a kid. I would love to go there. So that's the only reason why I like Portugal.

SPEAKER_05 32:58

Yeah. Um maybe you can go there one day. Uh another thing that's funny about this is um he calls it the product all the time, which is a super weird way to talk about food.

SPEAKER_01 33:10

Yeah. Yeah, I'm with you. I'm really enjoying this analysis because I think we we picked up on different things. This might be like the the the the male, female Matt Haley difference in terms of like the responses to this video as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 33:25

So I mean, these are some of the things that um pop stand out to me to make it clear why then satirists pick it up and want to dunk on it, right? Have you got any more that you wanted to add?

SPEAKER_01 33:36

Um of weird things about the video.

SPEAKER_05 33:38

Yeah, what's weird about it?

SPEAKER_01 33:39

Well, the first thing I learned just then is that um to zoom back to the top from my perspective, well, I didn't know that this was done regularly.

SPEAKER_05 33:46

That he does it all the time. Correct. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

So at the top you kind of said, hey, like, this is something that happens all the time. Why did this one in particular, like, you know, re reach escape velocity? Yeah. Um, that's new information to me, interesting to me. The the first thing that I thought of when I saw this video was that it is um this type this style of video, UGC, user-generated content. Uh-huh. It's it's like a category of video. So when we talk about um in content land, like um it's it's probably most popular in it in its like day of the life of, or like pretty girl talks about like this new makeup or whatever it is. Hey guys, kind of like I just want to show you this thing. And they've they've transposed this into McDonald's. So when I saw the video, I was like, huh, McDonald's is you doing UGC. That's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 34:33

Um and from the CEO too, not like some uh influencer. Exactly. The CEO of this company eats this food.

SPEAKER_01 34:41

But then watching this video, you're like, does he and then so the next point that I had from watching it was like I thought about why the CEO. So again, like so again, just Haley has all the facts, like the actual facts about like so I'm learning as we go, but my and this is my react, my my interpretation of what I was watching. I was like, okay, so they make the CEO is doing this, not knowing that this he's been done it a few times before. So my initial impression was like, oh, this is like an uh a new thing that they're trying. It's they're trying they're doing a style of video that is very popular on social media at the moment because UGC content does so much better than professional content for so many reasons, um, just because of the the meta trend that we're in right now. Like there's there's so much A-B testing happening right now, it's like make a professional video or just self-record on your iPhone, and then like the algorithm blows up that video. So um there's there's a there's a want for it, and it's for me, it was um again, new new to seeing it. When you think of a McDonald's burger ad, I'm not gonna ask you to answer the question, but what I imagine like what most people think of is like a big visual, a big fancy visual of like it being on the screen and like it looks very well curated. Professionally shot. And there's usually a very powerful voice talking about the McCarch available at like whatever. So that's that's that's kind of like the branding that we're used to seeing.

SPEAKER_05 36:02

I think of all those Hunger Jacks that's perfect where it's like mood lit.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Moodlit, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's flames and stuff kind of happening around. That's cut that was kind of like the MO for fast food chain burger marketing for a while. And um, so then they've the marketing team has pivoted to this UGC style. And I think I don't think that there's anything particularly unique about this. I have to watch the other ones. I don't think that the first one ever hits, so I'm not surprised to hear that they've done a couple, and then after like iteration four, five, and six or whatever it may be, like that you know, he's gotten more confident, like whatever it may be, may have like in improved a little bit, but that the um the the concept is what I think makes it so potent. Like the concept that oh sorry to your point, the CEO. I was like, I was thinking about the CEO, and I was like, there's no one else better to do it than the CEO. Because if it was if it was an influencer, you wouldn't believe it even more because you know they were being paid, being paid like to lie. This guy has the most amount of um uh skin in the game to to put to do this. Because who's gonna want to like it's such a hard job to pull off if you're not the person who brought who owns the thing.

SPEAKER_05 37:17

I think there's a a few things there. Like, so McDonald's definitely has a bit of a branding issue where it and maybe more in the US than in somewhere like Australia, but where it's like their their food is for poor people. Yes. The CEO isn't gonna eat this food. No. So I imagine that's where as what is it, UGC UGC, user-generated content. The idea to do user-generated content probably came to them. Yes. And then so they've got this Instagram and it's full of videos of him eating the product, going around, uh going around McDonald's doing things. And uh when I looked at those videos, they're all very um polished and uh kind of genuine looking. It's this one which I think is purposely out of touch, unrelatable, um it's a little bit weird, the audio doesn't quite sync up with his mouth. It looks like, is this AI? Um he seems kind of robotic. It's he picks up the burger and takes a weird little bite out of it that captures people's attention as well. And I reckon that's on purpose to create the dunking to get the attention. Because the normal user-generated content wasn't really blowing up, but this has gone viral.

SPEAKER_01 38:34

Yeah, cool theory. I think again, so before we started this, I was like, I'm not gonna take the opposing side intentionally, but I have a different perspective on this.

SPEAKER_05 38:43

Yeah. I mean, look, the other reason I say that is as uh someone pointed out when I was talking about it during the week, how did this make it through all these levels of McDonald's marketing? And and they didn't notice. I was like, of I'm sure they noticed. You notice within one second of watching the video. I reckon it's on purpose.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah. I I'm inclined to believe you. I'm inclined to be like that this was meticulously thought out. I also know, or my my perspective on this, is that there's like a mass sometimes you can get into like with with bigger companies, uh particularly when you have multiple levels of like tape to get through, there's like a hypnotize uh what's the word? A mass hypnotisation that can occur when people don't even think to look at things more critically than they need to. This this video has been done a couple of times now. It's kind of in it, like I said, they've sloppy. He's found his flow, the person who filmed it that day, the person who posted that day. I I think that these the these are these are more likely attributes of like complacency and stuff like that. Oh, interesting. Like, and no, like that. They've seen the video, like that they know it's gonna come out anyway. We've made 20, they're not really working, but we just go through it anyway.

SPEAKER_05 40:06

Maybe that that that's just your perspective as a content creator. Yeah, a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, if it was intentional, I fucking love that. It's genius, right? It's genius. Yeah. I don't give the creatives that much credit for thinking about that. It's incredibly difficult to make actors act like that, um, especially the CEO. So that's just my um I'm not I don't think it is that necessarily. I'm just like, that was my my instinct when you were talking was kind of the opposite.

SPEAKER_05 40:36

Interesting. So I'm like, this is intentional. You're like, it's a happy accident.

SPEAKER_01 40:40

It's intentional in the sense that they know that this style of video works. What wasn't intentional was the the the the awkward excellence that that occurred to make it blow up.

SPEAKER_05 40:51

Okay. Interesting.

SPEAKER_01 40:52

They created an the intentionality was this the environment in which they created to to do the video, but the actual what happens, the creative part, like the actual creative element of that video, I think is very difficult to be intentional about.

SPEAKER_05 41:05

Maybe it's my cynicism that nothing is organic, everything is manufactured like whenever you watch someone read a script, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:13

Like when you're doing shoots with them, that that you do like four, five, six takes. Um, like first of all.

SPEAKER_05 41:19

Oh, you don't just do it all in one? No. First of all, that like he would have filmed that behind the veil, right?

SPEAKER_01 41:23

He probably filmed that like maybe eight times that day, potentially, I would imagine.

SPEAKER_05 41:26

Some editor had enough of biting out of that burger.

SPEAKER_01 41:30

He didn't decide the script. Like, I mean, he had to say the words, but there was an editor or some a creator, a creative person who at some point decided which take to go with. And for whatever reason, they thought that that was the most interesting one. Because it was the most it was the most interesting one. Oh yeah. Um, to your point, and then it goes to like so. I think he he he riffs a little bit, gets he's he's kind of like getting his flow. Like people, business people get funny like that as well. Like they like they're self-conscious, they want to try different things, they want like in front camera life is hard, the the editor gets to it, they they're going through multiple takes and they're just trying to pick the one that they think is going to be best. Then it gets to uh the the the levels that you're talking about. Um, and I even think I either think complacency or they're on the edit team editor side and they're like, oh, it's a bit different. It's cool, let's try it, let's check it out. And back to being hypnotized, I don't think it crossed a lot of people's minds that it was like different, different and like why it was different. Because you don't you it's it's it's it's true.

SPEAKER_05 42:27

If they didn't have any funny people in the room, they wouldn't have noticed why it's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 42:32

Yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_05 42:33

And then it starts crossing a few funny sarcastic people's feeds, and they're like, hello, this is hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 42:39

Again, I'm not saying and again, I'm not saying this right, I'm just visualizing how this goes down. And then it's like again, like the complacency of like the it's it I can just see, I can see that it's like this is just another one, it doesn't matter that much. We're just putting it out there, like, and it's Okay.

SPEAKER_05 42:55

If this is what happens in a multi-billion dollar business, I haven't worked on one, but yeah. Um you know, that's you know, that's one theory. Maybe I like to think that everything is intentional at that level because there's huge dollars on the line, but that could be wrong. That could be a wrong assumption.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

The point is that there wasn't huge dollars on the line for this one, which is why it's interesting to me. Like the like the the purpose of the UGC content is like that was like it they've pulled it back so much, they've made it intentionally look not multi-million dollars. Like they've they've used shitty cameras, they've not used like Yeah, I don't mean they spent multi-millions of dollars videoing the CEO at his table.

SPEAKER_05 43:26

Yeah, yeah, but the but the company itself.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

Yeah, well so again, and I so I would argue that that the So we're moving on from that point. Detaching my f my final point that I thought of was like I saw it and I was like, genius. Yeah. Absolute genius because this is the best way. Like like Haley pointed out before, maybe so you weren't it that the name of the burger didn't get through to you.

SPEAKER_05 43:52

Yeah, but I just don't care about this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 43:53

But the most important thing that got through is that there is a new burger. Yeah. That and now the entire world is aware. There is a new burger.

SPEAKER_05 44:01

And let's let's talk about this then in terms of the life cycle. Whether the um so the first step of the life cycle is the bait, which is that video, the dunk bait.

SPEAKER_01 44:11

Back to dunk bait, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 44:12

So whether we believe this was an intentional thing or not, um, you know, I think there's a lot of value in talking about the life cycle and what it looks like and the elements of it, and then why it matters that we be aware of these sorts of things.

SPEAKER_01 44:25

Yeah, no, could good to bring it back to the point, which is like I was getting stuck on like the the actual minutia of the marketing, but like the point of this is It might come up again as we go through the different. Yeah, let's go. Let's do it.

SPEAKER_05 44:36

Yeah. So the first part is obviously the bait. You've got the video. Yeah. And now that this has happened, maybe accidentally, people might start to recreate this. So we might see more videos like this from different brands. Um, so in this case, for dunk bait, the bait, it goes public. Uh, some typical characteristics that you might see in the video, uh, which I think are evident in this video, is like the tone-deafness of like an obviously super rich, um, kind of classically subtly well-dressed guy eating a McDonald's cheeseburger. Um the like the that elitism kind of perspective. I think that invites satire for sure. Um the funny mannerisms that he uses, they're a little um they're quite stiff. In his other videos, he's kind of quite personable and um normal and charming, which I think you have to be to be a CEO. Like that's probably a characteristic that isn't gonna get you in that spot. So I'm skeptical that this person would be uncomfortable on camera or have weird mannerisms at times.

SPEAKER_01 45:42

Um That's interesting.

SPEAKER_05 45:44

Yeah. I mean probably not.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

More likely the in my opinion, more likely the opposite. Oh, yeah. The richer you get, the stiffer you get.

SPEAKER_05 45:52

Um maybe. Yeah, that's possible. Um Do you want to talk about that a little bit? Like that.

SPEAKER_01 45:59

Okay, I I can keep going through them. These are good. Um I'm just I'm just I'm just showing down the.

SPEAKER_05 46:02

I don't want to keep reeling off things if you've got something to say. But I appreciate that you're listening.

SPEAKER_01 46:07

I'm listening.

SPEAKER_05 46:07

Um something about this one, something about the video quality was a bit weird too. Like the um given everyone's I guess paranoia around AI and how much interest AI sparks, I think there's uh dunk baitability in making your video look a little bit AI generated, you know, with some of those funny, um, funny elements. Uh and I guess the I guess ambiguous authenticity. So is he really enjoying the burger? Does he really think it looks good? Does he really think it looks like a big burger? Um, has he even eaten a burger before? He picks it up in a really weird way that people then satirize as well. So there's like lots of little elements in this video that invite you to make fun of it, which yeah, is one of the reasons I thought it was intentional. Um so yeah, the clip has to feel strange enough that viewers instinctively think someone needs to make fun of this. So yeah, that's that's my thoughts on the bait, the first step of the life cycle.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

Nice. Um okay, so the bait. Uh you mentioned stiff and unrelatable. Yeah. Um I think I I think there's actually also data to suggest that like when we think about how Zuckerberg reac um like it's it's Yeah, but he's a lizard person. But like it's so yes. I th I'm not surprised that he's a bit awkward.

SPEAKER_05 47:34

He's not just an average CEO, though. He's not a professional CEO. So that's maybe something that's different here. Um if I'm talking about a professional CEO being a bit more charismatic, uh Zuckerberg's not a professional CEO. He's a tech guy who became extremely wealthy. So I think. Sure. Okay. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 47:55

Like it's he's been a he's been a for the I just brought it up because I was like, it's not unit's not uncommon for me to see um these top of the company CEOs like super locked up. Um video quality was weird. I think intentional. Very, very intentional. Like intentionally shot. Like they would have access to any camera they want. Exactly. And they go, we're gonna shoot it on what they probably would have thought more about a little bit blurry, a bit out of focus.

SPEAKER_05 48:23

Um didn't have the nice qualities that our videos have when you press all the buttons and do stuff to them.

SPEAKER_01 48:29

Yeah. I think that more thought was went into like how what like they probably put on the tech guide and they're like, and then they're like, what's like the middle of the range? Like like what are the settings that make it look mid? Um is probably where the effort went. Um I'm with you.

SPEAKER_05 48:47

I What's your opinion on the mouth out of sync with the words type quality to it? Do you think I'm reaching too far to think that they're trying to make us think it's AI?

SPEAKER_01 48:58

Yeah, I do. I think that um I've written down here the creator economy.

SPEAKER_05 49:02

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

It is very easy to p like when something is weird so much so much analyze and analysis has gone to this video, and so many creators have taken their spin on it. It's like I I almost feel like we've created things that don't actually uh that aren't actually.

SPEAKER_05 49:28

Yeah, like it was never meant to be picked apart to this level. Of course, you're gonna find things we're gonna do.

SPEAKER_01 49:32

Exactly. Like when you have like thousands of people whose sole job is to make videos, like they rely on shit like on videos to make their videos. They're like their creativity is gonna look at every edge of the of the sphere to make to have their take. And this is kind of emphasized through when so I I very annoyingly for the last two weeks, any anytime a a dunkbait version of this video came up, I would just forward it to Haley on Instagram. You sent me like 50. 50. And because what happened was I like the algorithm is so fun. It's like I sent one and then like I would it would always give me a different video next, and then another version, and then a different video next, and I was like, how long is this gonna go for? If I just keep on forwarding Haley these dunkbait takes, hot takes on on this, like, and I actually got tired. I I got I was like, uh surely it'll stop. And I was like, oh, it's not gonna stop.

SPEAKER_03 50:26

Your finger got tired.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

I I just mentally, I was like, I don't want to spend five more minutes just fucking sending these videos to Haley. And what I did was really emphasize how many people have made a video because they want their moment to get their spotlight to go viral.

SPEAKER_05 50:41

It's so true, and this is the second step of the cycle, right? This is the second phase, the dunk. So this is all the satirists. Um, what's super fascinating to me is um uh like this first came across my TikTok feed because of one of the guys I follow making fun of it. I didn't see the original at any time. I had to go looking for that.

SPEAKER_03 51:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:03

So that was really interesting to me. And then uh I think too, the quality of the satire is really interesting as well. Like you get people who would be like, you know, um professional comedians, they're very funny, they're very witty, they're pointing out all these things, it's really fun to watch. And then you see people where you're like, oh, you're just jumping on training. Please get off my feed. Uh this isn't entertaining. And it misses, it bombs.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

Yeah. And we should analyze those videos. And then people are analyzing those videos. And I'm pretty I have a funny feeling that we'd find all kinds of weird shit in that as well.

SPEAKER_05 51:36

Yeah. And I should point out so the most popular way for that I've seen for people to satirize this is the green screen. So they've got the CEO's video in the background and their head in the foreground. That's a green screen, and they're comment commentating the video plays, and then they c make comments, little witty comments about what he's done.

SPEAKER_01 51:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 51:55

Yeah. Which is fun to watch. Yes. It's entertaining.

SPEAKER_01 51:57

A lot of like BTS versions of like what it was like to shoot the ad, basically.

SPEAKER_05 52:01

Yeah. I find that more entertaining than the people who then dress up like the CEO and impersonate him.

SPEAKER_03 52:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 52:07

That's, you know, cut doesn't quite work. If that feels a little too um slapsticky for me. Like it's not subtle. It's not funny.

SPEAKER_01 52:14

It's the easiest, it's the easiest thing to do. The harder thing to do is to re is to like actually recreate the scene. That was uh slight that takes a few extra steps of effort and probably a few extra steps of um st uh script writing as well.

SPEAKER_05 52:29

Yeah. And um so the this step in the cycle, the dunk, is what then starts massively accelerating the engagement. Yeah. Because we're all getting enjoyment out of laughing about this thing together. We're all dunking on it together, we're all laughing, we're making fun of it, and the engagement just keeps building and building and building and it takes off. Um you get multiple kinds of creators participating in the trend. So um I guess that's that thing of uh community. It's like a we've all got the same opinion on this, and and it just um it really hits all those uh you know markers for virality, basically.

SPEAKER_01 53:08

Um slightly just to bring it into like the this perspective of what's going on in this world. So like uh what's that little monkey's name?

SPEAKER_05 53:17

The little monkey.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

Yeah, who the who carries the um Punch Punch the Monkey.

SPEAKER_05 53:21

Okay. I don't know. Oh, the monkey.

unknown 53:24

Your face.

SPEAKER_05 53:25

Matt's jaw has hit the floor that I don't know who punched the monkey at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 53:29

The monkey who like got you tell me about it? Who got um everyone on I promise you everyone who's listening right now is like, what the fuck happened?

SPEAKER_05 53:35

Is I not on the internet at this time.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

How did you miss this one?

SPEAKER_05 53:40

There were times I wasn't on the internet.

SPEAKER_01 53:41

This is very recent. Yeah. The monkey in the Chinese zoo who got rejected by the family, and then he was carrying around like a little baby orangutan as like his like personal teddy bear. And everyone was like, That's cute. This is like TikTok 101.

SPEAKER_05 53:55

I didn't know it didn't not on my TikTok.

SPEAKER_01 53:58

I almost I almost need to take a pause to show to update you with what I think I can picture it in my mind.

SPEAKER_05 54:03

It's cute as a sad monkey, he got rejected.

SPEAKER_01 54:07

So the whole the whole world got behind this little monkey.

SPEAKER_05 54:09

We're all on his side. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:10

I am stunned you didn't see it.

SPEAKER_05 54:12

Everyone in the whole world except Hayley.

SPEAKER_01 54:14

But I would have been on his side if I more brands made videos about this.

SPEAKER_05 54:18

Really?

SPEAKER_01 54:18

Like actual, like every brand for a two days was making a like a meme about punch.

SPEAKER_05 54:24

Not on my algorithm. See, and this highlights maybe This highlights how you can get in your own little ecosystem though, right? This was this was this was This was a huge deal in your world. I didn't even see it.

SPEAKER_01 54:39

No, no, no. It was huge in the world.

SPEAKER_05 54:42

Well, look. I do have a habit of exiting the world at certain times, so perhaps. Um Matt's not recovered.

SPEAKER_01 54:55

Pete God, what was my point? So as a similar thing that has happened recently. What were you talking about?

SPEAKER_05 55:03

You were talking about how this um the shared kind of community.

SPEAKER_01 55:07

The community, yes, the community eleven of it. So like so the whole world got behind punch, right? T-shirts were made, like um like like all kinds of like everyone got behind punch in his story, and is he ever going to make it back into the thing? Uh and so this is another example. Like people again, people dunk well it's not dunk bait, but it's the same thing.

SPEAKER_05 55:27

Yeah, it's like like feelings bait. Feelings bait.

SPEAKER_01 55:30

It's like empath bait or something like that.

SPEAKER_05 55:32

Yeah, empath bait. I can't believe this did it come on my feet.

SPEAKER_01 55:36

That's that's another Halyism. Mat original mat thought.

SPEAKER_05 55:40

A matism.

SPEAKER_01 55:41

No, original mat thought. Okay. That's my that's my brand. You're a Haleyism, I'm an original mat thought. Um the community nature of that. Uh I think the point of this is just like that there are things that have that there are other ways that this can go. Like, it happens in different ways. What make what what's happening here? Because it's just easy, it's it's easier. Sorry to use that word, the vector for creators for this is offense. You know, like yeah, they're attacking. For me to make content, I have like I have to play offense on this because it's a big thing. I can I can take fun of it. You can make it the big thing.

SPEAKER_05 56:19

It's punching up, you're not punching down. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 56:21

Whereas punch the m uh uh punch, the little monkey.

SPEAKER_05 56:24

You can't punch down on punch.

SPEAKER_01 56:25

You can't punch down on a punch, like it would be easy to be like, what a fucking loser. Like, why doesn't he have any friends? And that wouldn't be. But that content would not well do so well. Like that's not the right take. Yeah. So in many ways, I feel like the the nature of like there's no there's actually, in my opinion, no creativity in terms of it's not these aren't this is the only way it could could have been done.

SPEAKER_05 56:46

Yeah, the elitism makes this funny.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 56:49

Yeah, yeah. Well, let's um on that note move on then, I guess, to uh the next part of the cycle where other creators jump in and start providing you context to the McDonald's CEO. Oh sorry, one more thing. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 57:04

Well, we'll forget. Yeah. My favorite because before we move on to the context, but my favorite post, which I actually which I sent to Heli, which I actually commented on, which caught my attention, was McDonald's did post not a video, but an actual just like a carousel or like a photo. Are you getting there?

SPEAKER_05 57:19

It's another part of the cycle.

SPEAKER_01 57:20

Okay, never mind.

SPEAKER_05 57:21

But it's really important.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

I'm glad you brought it up because we're going to talk about it.

SPEAKER_05 57:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 57:25

I'll put that in my pocket.

SPEAKER_05 57:26

Put a pin in it, because we're coming around on the cycle, on the carousel. Um but the the next step, and look, do they go in this order? I don't know. Maybe that step is meant to be next.

SPEAKER_01 57:35

This is your facts, not mine.

SPEAKER_05 57:36

This is what I've written down here. Okay. And as we know, I'd like to stick to the plan.

SPEAKER_01 57:40

All right.

SPEAKER_05 57:41

Okay, so we have the next step is context. So we have other creators jumping in saying, actually, here's who the McDonald's CEO is. Here's his background, here's where he came from, here's the history of McDonald's CEOs. And they give you all this context to why this video is interesting and why it's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 57:59

Which is kind of what we're doing right now.

SPEAKER_05 58:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 58:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 58:01

Um, so one of the things about this um CEO of McDonald's at the moment is he's the first CEO they've had who is a professional CEO. So he goes from company to company driving shareholder value or whatever they do, you know?

SPEAKER_01 58:15

That was that was why you kind of like looked at me funny when I said when you're like, he's a professional CEO. And I was like, aren't they all professional, Haley? Zuck's is a professional CEO, and you're like, nah.

SPEAKER_05 58:23

He's not a professional like his job isn't sorry.

SPEAKER_01 58:26

He's only he's done multiple, he's done this multiple times.

SPEAKER_05 58:29

Exactly, yeah. That's like his job. He's his thing, yeah. Totally. Whereas obviously Zuck's a bit different. Can't believe I'm calling him Zuck, but I'm just going with it. Um okay. So McDonald's historically has had CEOs who have started on the ground in the restaurant as like a fry cook and they've worked their way up. And that's been part of their branding and part of the feel-good story of McDonald's or um or whatever. So now you've got this professional CEO, and that's why it's probably even more important that he tries to make these like user-generated content type videos. It's such a great phrase. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 59:04

UGC. You don't even need to say the whole thing.

SPEAKER_05 59:06

UGC. Um, so that's probably another driver for him making these videos in the first place, because he has to start appearing relatable. You know, I love McDonald's. I eat here. I would have started as a fry cook if I wasn't a professional CEO. Um so yeah, I guess that's that provides some context to then I guess why it's so funny to dunk on him. And then why he would make something so awkward that you could dunk on it. Because he's not like a grassroots guy that's come up through the company and really loves it. He's just a professional CEO who's so unrelatable and he steps in here and pretends to eat this burger.

SPEAKER_01 59:44

Which is what I was saying, right? That was my take. I was like, he's like Zucks. He's like, why would he be why would he be relatable? This dude's just fucking rich.

SPEAKER_05 59:50

I don't mean charming and relatable aren't the same thing.

SPEAKER_01 59:53

I didn't say charming.

SPEAKER_05 59:54

I said charming.

SPEAKER_01 59:55

Got it. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 59:56

And then you took it to relatable, which is fine. Yeah. Um, but I guess maybe my original point was that's why I was skeptical about the awkwardness of the video, because I do think someone whose job it is at that level is pro to get those jobs, right? A huge part of that is the Halo effect, like their ability to influence people by just being kind of charismatic and attractive and whatever, you know, in those certain ways. Um, so that's what my thinking was there. Rather than me being able to relate to him on a personal level. Yeah. Um Yeah. So I guess uh the other thing about uh that being important is it incre like yeah, so it increases the amount that you can satirize it, basically. Because of this guy.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:46

Because of the context around this guy. It's like a it's like a it's like a dial-up switch because he's because of because he's a professional CEO, you can you can you can take it to a level even better.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:56

And it also adds another layer around the um engagement and the content that's now out there because of this video. There's all these people talking about who is the CEO, which probably wouldn't have happened if this video didn't take off. So again, that's how it generates more engagement, more different kinds of content for people who are interested in business or marketing versus watching a funny video. So it's reaching an even wider audience now. It's getting really popular. Do you have any thoughts on that before I move on to the next step?

SPEAKER_03 1:01:25

No.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:27

No thoughts. Um, so the next step that I've got in there is. We're doing context, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:33

This is the context face?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:34

So this is a step where so we've done sort of people have come in and they've made their content and got their face seen because they're providing context to the CEO. Um that's generating more popularity on this video, making it even bigger.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:49

And then we've got other brands are seeing.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

But in but in between that, we just covered the context part, which is like people were making content about providing more context about the video.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:58

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:59

So now moving on to the next one.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:01

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:01

Yes. I'm just trying to keep up, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:02:04

Um Yeah, okay, cool. Awesome. Um, so because of the popularity that's generating, it's becoming really visible. And now we've got other brands who have gone, huh, look what's happening over here. I would like my slice of that pie as well. So um I'm gonna call this um step four the the brand pylon. So we have other brands like Wendy's is infamous for this. Um, you know, anyone, it mostly these American brands, right? Dunk, Dunkin' Donuts, Starbucks, whatever, they all have their little social media account and they start commenting on all these videos. Um and joining the dunk, making fun of McDonald's, you know, how unrelatable they are. Does he even eat a burger? And then you've got the Wendy CEO eating a burger and really enjoying it, you know? So they're piling on and joining the dunk.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:55

Do you see any evidence of this happening around?

SPEAKER_01 1:02:58

Did you did you notice any of these videos when you were there was a I sent you a a post of like so McDonald's actually posted us a steel image of the burger. Yep. Like an actual just picture of the big arch, McArch. And then the top comments for like 20 were other big brands with our little little one line. Because everyone's trying to win the comment war as well, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:03:18

Yes, you've got to get the wittiest. So we just comment.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

So like so the top, the top 20 comments on that post of the burger is um all the brands you just mentioned, all the American brands, just having their little one-liners with like, you know, like tens of thousands of likes, whatever. And I was again, I was just like, brilliant.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:35

Yep. They're all joining in as well and getting their um what do you call it when you get the glow off something? You know, you're just like aura. Yeah, they're like stepping into the aura.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:44

Yeah, because I mean, it's like it's just it's it's it's not it's not gonna harm there's a line you can't cross, but there's it's not harmful to them. But you don't you like you wanna be like it's probably better better off that you're in it than you're not in it. Like you don't like you people aren't gonna see that Wendy's wasn't in it, but they will see that you did that Wendy's was in it. Yes like you no one's taking audit of the brands that should have said something.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:09

Yeah, yeah. It's not Gaza, they're not noticing who didn't stand up and say that's a very good example.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:16

Um and I think the other part that that makes this really funny and then makes us feel like we're part of it. And we're it it's like it's like Wendy's and all those brands are McDonald's friends, and it's like if you post a super cringe video and then all your friends started commenting on how cringe it was, right? And so it becomes relatable again and enjoyable because you're watching that happen. It's not just me dunking on McDonald's, it's like McDonald's friends dunking on McDonald's.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:43

You know?

SPEAKER_01 1:04:43

Friends is an interesting word to use. You mean like competitors.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:46

Well, they are competitors, but the way they need each other.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:50

But they but they need each other.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:51

Yeah, and it's like they're equals, they're peers. So maybe not even friends in a like peers, I like, yeah. Yeah, peers. Um and so it's um dunking on each other from the same level, not just me as a little plea.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:05

A little creator, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:06

You know, making fun of McDonald's.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:08

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:08

Um and I think that then generates additional uh engagement, additional content. You know, people are like, look at Wendy's, ha ha, they're so funny, it's relatable. And it just kind of keeps bursting outwards, like keeps growing.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:21

To that point though, I don't think I do still think the brilliance of it is that whilst we're saying peers, they are still they're not they're punching up because they're not McDonald's. Like all these brands that you just mentioned. Yeah. Like not like McDonald's is the mecca for this.

SPEAKER_05 1:05:40

That's true. So it's it's do you think there's anyone who could punch down on McDonald's? Who could be?

SPEAKER_01 1:05:47

There's no one in that industry per se, but like so like if and it it's kind of like when P Pepsi dunks on Coke or whatever, it's kind of like you did, but like it's still short lived. Coke is still better. You know, like like it's still short lived. So So it's that's that's why that works.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:03

From this kind of content that's happened this time and and in other examples, I do think certain brands like Wendy's do manage to then generate a reputation as being more relatable. Like they're f they would, you know, they're more funny, they would never have such an awkward video. Yeah. Like so they get a different kind of um brand. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:24

Just to before I forget this, and I think uh probably a better example of like what what are two massive companies that could say something about each other and then it be equal. And so I think of Apple and Google.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:35

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:36

Um I know I know it's not food. Um Google's did a recent marketing campaign. So the output the outcome of this is that everyone gets to have a laugh.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:45

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:46

When Apple and Google go get go to like dunk on each other, people get fucking angry.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:50

Or they're like either I'm on Google's side, don't you dare talk to Google like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:54

Because that's what happens when you have like dis like not when you don't have disparity. Yeah. When you have two equal brands with just as much firepower. Like so as I as an example, like Google makes an ad about so iPhone releases its most recent s iPhone. Google makes an ad about that, basically calling it like the vanilla phone. Um burn. You know, like just another vanilla phone. That that's not what the phrase was, but that's like that's what the imagery was, essentially. Um and it's funny, but doesn't have the same feel as what this is. Yeah. This is it because then it what it does is it actually just silos people in their worlds even more. They're like, well, fuck Google even more. It's probably people are like, Google's now Google's even better.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:40

Well, that's rage bait.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:41

Yes. Yeah, exactly. That's probably yeah, that's what I was trying to say. Yeah. That's um Which is a different kind of engagement. It's a different engagement. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:07:48

I mean I like this better. This is fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:51

Yeah, maybe, and I'm so I guess uh the the connection I'm trying to draw is like maybe rage bait exists more so in uh when you have two equals going at each other, when you when it well you get dunk bait when you have someone well, unequals. Yeah. Like like a punching up basically. When you're punching up, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:07

And um That's my theory. On that note, that's a really good theory, and it's really good to bring up that difference between dunk bait and rage bait, because I almost feel like I'm exhausted of rage bait. Like I'm so bored of it. Yeah, it's every time I see it now, I'm just like like delete, close, exit.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:24

Which is why it's stunning to me that you missed punch.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:27

Like, I don't know what I was doing. Let me know the date and I'll find out.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:32

Just just in your next time you're in TikTok in the search, just write punch. Don't even have to write monkey. Just write punch. We'll do it after the show. The whole algorithm will change.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:40

Yeah, see how quickly it comes up for me. Um I'll work out what I was doing. That meant I wasn't on the internet for that time. Um yeah, so that's I guess that's steps four, um, where we've got other brands uh absorbing that meme and then competing for their slice of the pie. Um the next step that I've got here is This is the fifth step. There's like eight. Oh, okay. Okay. Buckle in. Okay, are you right? Yeah, yeah. Are you hydrated? Are you ready to keep going for like three more? All right, here we go. I've got the next one for you. So I'm gonna call this. So this is step five, the backlash against the dunk. This is where we have people starting to say, um, who cares, guys? It's just a burger. Why are we creating so much attention around this, so much drama? Um and I don't know what we would call that attitude. It's like the it's almost like the um You said a backlash.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:36

Backlash? That's I mean, it's not saying that like this is an outrage, it's more just like, come on, guys.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:42

The pendulum has to swing back.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:43

Like big, big rich company makes a thing and then they get richer from it. We got we gotta like hang on, we're actually like everyone's like, oh, we're doing the thing that we we they want us to do. Why are we feeding this machine? They wanted this. Let's let's fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:57

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:58

Fuck, fuck, fuck.

SPEAKER_05 1:09:59

So it's like, let's think about what we're doing here. Why are we giving them so much attention?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:02

Yeah, stupid creators.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:04

Right? And so then that's another kind of creator who's like obviously not going to jump on the satire that they've got their own angle that they're peddling. But it's still all content, right? That keeps getting this message out there.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:15

Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:17

Do you have any more thoughts on the anti-dunk backlash? Um, maybe just when you're just commenting on outrage culture, you know? So Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:26

So I I I think that my experience with this is always I jump to that step immediately. Yeah. So I feel like the simps, like, I mean, like you said, there are some very talented con comedians out there who like put some simps, yeah. Yeah, like the talent the talented comedians have good takes. Yeah. But then there's like the people who are starts becoming cringe. Like, because it's easy, because it's easy to do, and they're like, but that's the world, like Monday, maybe they'll make it. Maybe they will be an amazing person one day, not yet.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:52

Um I mean, people might say that about this podcast.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:55

But my take is my take is I jump straight to that part, which is like the you're doing the thing that you they want you to do, like like I'm already at the let's educate them back the other way stage. That's that's where I that's where I delete to. That that's my opinion.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:10

Yeah, so that's like your where you're already kind of commenting on this the nature of this outrage culture, whether it's rage bait, whether it's dunk bait, you're just like, guys, this is clearly invoking a response and you're just like feeding into the machine. Yeah, yeah. Instead of thinking for yourself. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:25

I'm standing on the edge of the fight being like, fuck an L guys. Break it up.

SPEAKER_05 1:11:32

That's so funny. Uh I guess then once we've kind of checked ourselves and gone, why are we fighting? Like, why are you in the fight? Um, there's probably uh this has come across my feed a few times. I don't know how widespread this is, but you then have creators who agreed with me and said, This is on purpose, guys. Like this video is so unhinged, it cannot be really.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:58

Yeah, okay. That's where you go. That's definitely where I don't go.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:01

That's like the next step in that come on, guys. It's like you've been sucked in. This is clearly designed to and it's probably the same with Rage Bait. It's like this, no one really thinks this. This is clearly designed to um invoke a response and you've been sucked in. So I've had a few videos like that cross my feed where um comedians are kind of doing a little role play, and and then when you're watching them, you're like, yeah, it does seem like they fully know what they're doing. This isn't just like an accidental mistake, and we're making fun of them.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:30

That's where your take comes from. That's where we differ.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:33

I thought of it before I saw that. Oh, sorry. And I felt validated to see it when it started popping up. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:12:38

So I guess I just want to be clear, it's an original thought.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:42

Um yeah, cool. Um you I could almost argue there's like a personality spectrum, like where like all people fit fit into like one of these eight categories of like where are you gonna land in terms of like the it when if we if we watch this video, we're all gonna fall somewhere on this on the spectrum of the cycle. Yeah. And I lean into it's a happy accident, like I don't give them the benefit of the doubt, but they're cap they're capitalizing on the thing, yes, but like I don't give them credit for the thing. Um, whereas you've gone it's a conspiracy, which is funny because that's the take I'm supposed to have.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:16

I think I think I'm very skeptical of things, like very critical of things that I see, um, and very cynical about the world in general, which is why I end up here very quickly.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:27

The micro again to reiterate is my my take is CEO's done it a bunch of times, got comfy, editor, picked the fit the best take, got to the red, got to the red tape part. They were like, looks different, looks cool, let's run with it. Um and not too much thought went on beyond that. And then but then it blew up, and then you obviously that's that's my take.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:44

I feel like we land in different places here, depending on what the content is. This is making me think of when you noticed that the ABC kept turning off comments on their videos, right? Which is valid, like because they do. And I was like, whatever, Matt, it's probably just a resourcing thing. They just don't have a person to monitor the content content and because of their policy. So you can't do it.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:08

You think it's the happy accident, and I'm like, there's a fucking thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:10

Whereas you've gone, Hayley, this is o only on certain kinds of content.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:14

Interesting.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:14

You need to be critical here, you know? And that was an example of me not being my normal critical self and just kind of riding them off because it's the ABC, I think. Which is like a pretty complacent place to be.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

I mean, I guess we don't have to be uniformed at all our decisions all the time, you know. Like I don't have to be like consistently one way or the other.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:31

Yeah, we're not like human beings are complex things, you don't go on the one side of things.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:35

But it is valid that like in one in one context I was skeptical. Um sorry I was skeptical about ABC About their intentions.

SPEAKER_05 1:14:44

About their intentions, and in this case, on my happy accident, and you've had the opposite reaction to the I wonder if that's because like the ABC, I imagine, and well, I did work for the ABC very briefly, um is a big, like a bureaucratic kind of laborious, policy-heavy, publicly funded type organization. I currently work for like a reasonably big, laborious, bureaucratic, policy heavy type organization. So it's very easy for me to go, it's probably just a policy thing. Um in this case, you work in media, so it's very easier, easy for you to be like, this is probably just a result of this video process. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I wanna Yeah, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:24

Correct.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:27

So yeah, it depends on like the role you're playing within the particular scenario.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:32

Yeah, that's cool. That's super interesting. Um I think we finished off so the backlash to the dunk, we've got people noticing that it could be a purposeful dunk bait. And then the next part I've got to is where McDonald's kind of realizes what's happened and they're now dunking back on themselves. Yeah. Like, I think that is that. So you sent me one well, you sent me a thousand Instagram reels uh about this. And then I think one of them you were like, this one is good. And that's the one where all the other brands had started jumping.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:08

The one I mentioned before. It was just a still image of the burger.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:10

Do you remember what the still image said? And but do you remember what it said? Like what it was.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:15

Um I think I do. It was a statement. It was just a statement about like no, I can't remember the words.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:21

But it was it was where they'd circled around and they were kind of dunking back on themselves. Yeah. Like it was like, who would not want this burger? Who would not want this burger? Something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:30

Perfect, perfect. And that's where like that's where like the mecca of the McDonald's like takes advantage of it again. It's like that is such good language for what that is.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:40

And it's like they know that everyone's gonna troll in the comments. So like the the that's the way to win the comments before the comments have even happened.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:49

Exactly. And it's just another way of then doing that kind of self-deprecating humor that's very popular for certain generations.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:57

It's the M it's the MM mic drop.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:59

MM mic drop? Oh, the self-deprecation humor. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:01

It's like here's all he' we we here's everything bad about me. What else are you gonna say? Like that's like getting out in front of the criticism. That's what that post is.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:09

Yeah, that's one way to look at it. Yeah, yeah. Um so that yeah, they're they're satirizing themselves. Um I don't know if the CEO's done a video where he's like followed up making fun of himself. I haven't seen that, but I wouldn't be surprised if something like that appears in this kind of dunk bait life cycle.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:25

I think that's a step too far.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:26

You reckon it's too far.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:27

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:28

What makes you say that?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:28

When you have the advantage, I don't think If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Yeah, I don't think he I don't him acknowledge if I were the media team, which I'm not the marketing team, I would not get him to acknowledge it. Yeah. Like that is the worst thing you can do.

SPEAKER_05 1:17:45

What what what do you think would happen if he started exactly?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:48

Because the brilliance of again, it's back to UGC content. Once you start to once you start to um uh script it a bit more, it r it what am I trying to say?

SPEAKER_05 1:18:01

So many so many videos Like the beauty of it is its kind of accidental Explicity. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:07

So many people have made the video that they would make anyway. The video of like him reflecting or like them, you know, pulling the rug behind and using behind like it like it's it's been done so many times by the phase two creators, um, it's it's impossible to it's an like it's it's a waste of time. Yeah, there's nothing. You have more to lose and you have more to gain there.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:29

Yeah, okay. And so the better thing to do is like this the thing that you sent me was a totally separate thing. It was a picture of a burger. It's got nothing to do with the CEO.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:38

Exactly. That's why that post was brilliant, because it was it yeah, they they they made it about the burger, which is the point.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:43

And it's enough to The CEO isn't the point.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:45

The burger is the point.

SPEAKER_05 1:18:46

The burger is the point. Exactly. Get back to the burger. That's what's we're not eating the CEO. No. We're eating the burger. Um, and it's enough to signal some self-awareness on McDonald's's McDonald's's part, which that self-aware deprecating humour, again, quite popular with certain demographics.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:05

Wendy, like a Wendy's brand would probably lean into the keep let's keep telling the story. Let's let's tell the story more, let's tell the story more. This that was the right move to be like, we're gonna keep it like the illusion can be whatever you want it to be. We're gonna pull back now, you know?

SPEAKER_05 1:19:18

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:19

Um It's like a magician and a trick. It's like if you actually learn the trick, you you're really fucking mad.

SPEAKER_05 1:19:24

Like it's just like you want to know, but you don't want to know. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. And this then, I guess, um doubles the engagement, because again, you've got those brands joining in on it. Um the self-awareness piece is really popular if if the satire wasn't popular, if the review wasn't popular, the self-awareness is popular, like they're just hitting all these different markets and demographics and kind of continuing to blow up the bubble uh that you know happens around this cycle.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:53

Um side note on that, yeah. I I'm I'd be interested to know how much time has how much money has been spent from McDonald's and on analysing all this information.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:04

Like they don't need to spend any because we're doing it. They can just listen to this.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:07

Yeah, but like like when you have like a blow-up like that, like you need to stay close to the pulse. And I was like, like, how many fucking interns were like like review like I mean? This is what AI is for as well, I guess. But it's like an above average amount of like there was an increase of resources, whether they met like required to like keep keep their finger on the pulse of this.

SPEAKER_05 1:20:29

Sometimes it makes me wonder like who have they got in their marketing team? Like what kinds of people because sometimes I wonder, do do brands have someone who knows what is funny? Because I sometimes wonder, like, have they got someone who's actually analysing why was this funny? Because I don't think everyone naturally gets it. Like they don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:49

Well, to your point, why isn't your whole point this is all meticulously planned out? Like, so to your like would so yes they would, right?

SPEAKER_05 1:20:55

I'm wondering. Yeah, this is what I don't know. I'm not there. I'm just guessing, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:00

Um and I don't maybe this is something you don't haven't learned about me. Once I have a theory, I don't really need to stick to it. I can change my mind.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:08

Sure.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:08

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:09

Um so yeah, I'm I'm just wondering. Uh so the the self-awareness, the self-dunk, that kind of uh I guess in terms of the life cycle, it embeds the company, the original dunkee, uh, back into being like a participant in the cycle. So they're not just like passively getting dunked on anymore, they're now participating in the cycle again. Yeah. Um so then I get on to the final stage.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:38

Oh, there's another one. I'm ready for it.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:41

Please try and continue to pretend that you're interested.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:43

I am interested.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:45

Um so the final stage of the life cycle, step eight, is where we start like transcending the original content and you turn into a meme of some kind. You start becoming content independent of the original context. And this is where I sent you a clip where someone had uh remixed what he was saying into a song. And I really want to play it.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:10

Um Can you take a Matt Risk responsibility?

SPEAKER_05 1:22:13

Can you do it? Can you do it for me? I'm asking you for help so that I don't know. And I'm not gonna make you feel bad about it. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:19

That's all right. Yeah, yeah. So I'm playing the song, ready? Oh, Matt's foul.

SPEAKER_05 1:22:29

Yeah, it's harder than it looks. Um but I freaking love this. This is like one of my favorite parts of the life cycle. He's having to click a lot of buttons.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:01

Holy cow.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:02

Holy cow.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:04

Pun intended, by the way. Like what a wild pun to make.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:07

I know. It's like literally a cow right there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:10

Um but that that is my favorite part of when these things are just the colour and the spaces that the video that what you played is actually a video of someone screen recording the timeline of like an audio editing software where you see like the the different um synths and coloured blips that made the song up. Yeah. So you just sing a timeline of the song that was made and then the song's playing. And it's just excerpts of and and and um and the face of the CEO at the exact moments he said those things. So that's right.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:38

So in terms of like not just the audio content, the video content, like this isn't a dance, it's not someone singing, it's literally just like someone's computer screen where they're like taking clips from what this guy said and then sampling it and mixing it. And it's there's something very relaxing about watching that, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:54

Yeah, it's ASMR.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:55

Yeah, ASMR, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:23:58

Um so I really enjoy that. And I I love a little random beat drop. Like it's good fun. I love it. I like it a lot.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:04

Yeah, so I mean, like, so it's like when people when if someone made a contemporary dance about this, like, you know, that's that's this, that's what you're talking about. Like stage eight is like it it kind of supersedes the the f the the world that it's in. It's like this is this was it was localized to a particular type of content, which social media content, you know, and then now there's making songs about it. Maybe someone made a dance about it, maybe it'll be like a reference um in a a skit show, one, like it's like a cultural phenomenon, basically.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:36

I feel like someone like Paris Hilton is going to be sampling this on the stage at like Wallapalooza. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:43

Before the the beat jobs at the fucking club is like, holy cow. Yeah. You know.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:48

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:49

DJ's put anything before the beat drop type meme. Totally.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:52

And um and this is where like I'm sure DJ did that. Absolutely. I I can't wait to hear it. Um and where if that was the first video you saw, you'd be like, what the fuck is this? Like, what is this about? I don't get it. Yeah, it only makes sense because it has no meaning. Uh you know, it's now totally separate from the original content. Like it does, you know, it doesn't uh it doesn't connect there necessarily. Um but yeah, as you said, that's like maybe this is where I see it kind of completing its life cycle, where it's kind of detached from the original point of advertising a new burger, and now people are just like using the hype around it to enjoy creating something, whether it's music, art, a meme, it could be a dance, I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:35

Yeah. Yeah, I just use dance because it's you know how would you in interpretive dance this? Like, what would you what would moves?

SPEAKER_01 1:25:42

That's for the dancers to figure out.

SPEAKER_05 1:25:43

Oh, you not like uh I don't know, like I wouldn't know what you're saying. You could literally just say, Haley, you'd probably just do like two flips and then roll around on the ground. I'd be like, Yeah, okay, dance.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:56

I have so many emotions about dance. It's like it's such a love hate relationship. I was like, dance is the worst fucking form. Like it's like it's it's the hardest to pull this shit out. Like, if you could, if you could tell, if you could memeify this through dance, you're a hero. Because it's it's the hardest one to do it in. Yeah. Because you don't get the the gift of storytelling. You literally just have like it's it's hard to storytell. Musical theater, yes. Just dance, so hard. Like, why have we made it so hard for ourselves?

SPEAKER_05 1:26:26

Yeah, well, if someone wants to try, I'd love to see it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:29

And um I I wonder if we're gonna get to the point where this then these samples, like this song, say, then becomes the background music in a totally unrelated video. And that's how like the meme culture kind of evolves. It like invokes the feeling that you got from this whole CEO thing, but it's about some other content. Yeah. It's super it's super fascinating to me. Like punch. Like punch. I does punch have a song? Is there any music associated with that? Yeah. And then every time I hear it.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:57

Maybe actually no, maybe not because punch doesn't talk, it's just an animal. But again, like so, yes, because t-shirts were made.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:03

Yep. Right?

SPEAKER_01 1:27:04

Oh, yes, massively, all the orangutan soft toys in IKEA got sold out.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:11

Wow, that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:12

The orangutan that it was like sorry, uh so it was carrying around like a plush orangutan. Yeah. Like it's like a little buddy.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:18

You're buying punch's toy, not a toy of punch, but like punch's toy.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:21

Correct. So then like like the IKEA ver like where where it actually came from sold out instantly. And then got resold.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:30

This is so fascinating to me because like the point of the original video is not marketing of any kind of product. Whereas the McDonald one is. Uh, but then you've got this other one that's totally different where you've got this side benefit for some kind of retailer. Yeah. Like, great, I can use this to market.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:48

Well, there is a benefit I mean I I mean the zoo benefits.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:51

That's good. Like the the the amount of people that like people were like waiting They got more foot traffic and awareness and like a s like

SPEAKER_01 1:28:00

It was like a impossible to see Punch, you know, like and when he came out of his little door, like it was like a fucking hero parade, and then like Punch was like, I don't know what's happening, but I believe.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:16

Did the zoo make the original? I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:18

That's what makes that I that's why I'm questioning. I'm like, who actually what was the inception of this? That's a good question. I don't know. If it was the zoo, brilliant. If it wasn't, um more likely. No, it was because it it it must have been s related to the zoo, because the only like we he the only the zoo knows that it's the monkey's being rejected.

SPEAKER_05 1:28:45

Yeah. Like unless someone just made that up.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:49

Yeah, I mean like I guess punt like people who are looking at the at he look sad. Yeah, man. Like these are little monkeys. Like you see their faces and stuff. Like he gets pushed away and like he take takes his little teddy bear, he's plush toy with him. I don't know if I can handle this. It is so hard. It's this is why this is why it was so good because it like Oh cry for sure. Yeah, it hits you. And like for some like guy, and I think here's why it penetrated it, because it hits guys as hard as it hits girls. Really?

SPEAKER_05 1:29:15

How come?

SPEAKER_01 1:29:16

Because there's something about being like exiled and lonely from the tribe. From like that really hits the male demographic as well. Like like the male loneliness epidemic. Um yes. I so I think like I think in general, like females are gonna latch onto it no matter what.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:30

Yeah, we'd see someone being pushed out of the tribe and immediately dragged them back in.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:34

Yeah, but there was something about this that made it a lot more real for guys. And that's I think what made this take off because like it's like it's something that we could get behind. And it's like that's an unusual um we're not really the one like generally men aren't the ones pushing these massive TikTok trends. Yeah. So like the fact that they were Yeah, like I think in terms of emotion anyway. So like it became very cool to be very emotional, and that was what was unique about this trend, like guys like being like, fucking punch me. Like, you know, like right.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:06

That sense of isolation really made guys feel like they could talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:10

That's what made that unique.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:11

That's so interesting. I'm sorry I missed it. I feel like I've really missed out.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:15

Yeah, well, you'll find out soon.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:18

Yeah. So that that was my last step in the cycle. There were eight steps that you sat with me through. So well done, Matt. Well done, everyone who's listening still.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:25

Can you l can you just list them once? Because I the entire time I was like, please just list them categorically. But let's just go. Just one word, let's just hear them.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:32

Yeah, you're right. I I revealed it in like a surprise thing, but I see how that isn't enjoyable to you. You want to know what they are. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:40

Well, it's called the the the the dunk bait life cycle.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:44

Yeah. So, and you're like, when is this cycle ending? I need to know, I need to be. Yeah, yeah. Um, all right, so eight steps, I'm gonna list them for you. So number one, the bait. Number two, the dunk. Number three, the context drop. Number four, the brands pylon. Number five, the anti-dunk backlash against the dunk. Number six, uh the self-awareness realization of the brand. Number seven, the self-dunk. And then number eight, the like meme transcendence. So it just transcends the original meaning of the video.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:27

Perfect. Excellent. I I wish we left with that, but I'm glad I'm glad we got there.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:32

That wouldn't have been a spoiler. That would have been good structure. I'm always curious to know. Yeah, I think enjoying it as a story that reveals itself, or do we want to know the structure up top?

SPEAKER_01 1:31:42

Um I think genuine storytelling, structure up top. Structure up top. Yeah, there's a reason why that works a lot in the world. Um, I like it because I'm trying to get better at storytelling. Just like at the beginning of the podcast, what do I do?

SPEAKER_05 1:31:53

You outline what's gonna happen. Say what's gonna happen. You'd like to throw in a thing that probably won't happen, just as a little extra splice. You won't get that concerns me greatly, but I am learning to live with it. But you're right, the structure is good.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:09

It's like it's it's like the um the payoff, you know. You don't have to give the details, but that we we we want the we want the payoff, but we don't know where it's going.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:16

To get the payoff, you need to know w like together. Yeah, yeah. No, I like it. Cool.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:22

Cool. Um thank you, Haley. That was very educational.

SPEAKER_05 1:32:25

Um Do you feel educated?

SPEAKER_01 1:32:27

Yes. Very thoughtful. So, what are your takeaways from the dunk bait life cycle?

SPEAKER_05 1:32:33

Yes, that's an important thing to do. Like, why was it important to recognize this? Why does it matter that we even are aware of this? And my point for going through all of these things is that I believe that our attention is the biggest resource that we still have, right? That companies want. Like your attention and awareness and engagement and participation is the thing that you're being mined for. And I think it's really important that we understand where they're trying to get it from us. You know? It's your resource. You should protect it and use it well and make sure that it's being applied in the right ways and that companies aren't just taking it from you for free too much.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:17

So that's my point in wanting to be aware of these life cycles and what's happening here.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:21

Nice. Haley might have noticed that when she said that I had a big smile on my face.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:25

You had yes, you do. You have a massive smile on your face.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:28

Haley said that our biggest resource is our attention, and I grinned.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:31

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:33

Uh I've just never been so proud of you.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:37

Oh, that's so nice. Why?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:39

That is such a well-connected self-um aware thought to have uh in this day and age.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:50

Um That's so nice, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:52

I couldn't agree more.

SPEAKER_05 1:33:53

Yeah, you agree?

SPEAKER_01 1:33:54

Yeah. Yeah. I pride myself on not giving these companies my attention or cure curating, curating my attention very specifically. Yes, that's something that's important to you. Speaking of curating, hello, Jazz. I know you're listening.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:09

I think I know this story. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:13

Jazz. She was like, sent me a DM, and um, it was just like, sorry, it's gonna ruin your algorithm. Um, but just thought of you when I saw this and sent me a video of the most outrageous bouncy girl boob video I've ever seen in my entire life.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:30

Not a butt one. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:32

This is like the pinnacle of it. If there was ever I didn't realise you could have a pinnacle of what this clickbait like um first trap is, and um and she just ruined your algorithm with it.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:46

I had to I had to like like 50 Samoid samoid videos after to cancel it out. To do the cleanse. To get to get the cleanse out. Um actually I'm on ermines at the moment. I don't know if you know what an ermine is, but that's it.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:57

Is it a cute little animal?

SPEAKER_01 1:34:58

Yes, a white one in the in the snow. It's like a little stout but white, and they've got little round ears.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:04

Is it a cat?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:05

Um no, it's a stout.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:07

A stout?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:08

Looks like a like a imagine maybe like a weasel. Like a long, uh a cool little weasel. This for me, way off topic. I'm a starting of like when my when I used to see like old guys get into bird watching and shit, I was like, what the fuck is that? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:22

A classic thought of someone in their 20s. They're like, that looks geek. I would never do that. And then you're like, oh, I really enjoy it.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:28

Now I'm like, I really want to go to Finland and take photos of stouts.

SPEAKER_03 1:35:32

Pretty, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:34

Uh anyway, so why did I talk about that? Attention. Yeah, so Jazz, thanks for ruining my algorithm temporarily. But I am very conscious of um scroll time, scroll speed, time is spent on post. Um, if I don't need to scroll, I don't. Straight to my DMs, straight to my posts, that's it.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:52

Very good. That's very disciplined.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:54

Oh, so to your point, yes. Um, don't be uh mining for attention.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:58

Exactly. Don't be a simp. Don't be a simp. Be careful where you put your attention.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:01

Yeah, that's your takeaway.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:02

Good takeaway. What's your takeaway?

SPEAKER_01 1:36:04

Uh I'm I'm having that moment where Haley gets put in the spot and she doesn't know what to do. What is my takeaway?

SPEAKER_05 1:36:10

I like how you've made your fumbling about my fumbling.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:14

Because usually I ask you and I yeah, I put you on the spot, and you have this moment, and I'm like, come on, I've already got mine. But that's because I thought of it. Yeah. What did I learn from today? Uh the the one of the most potent parts that I found interesting is the the step. Well, it was kind of two parts. It was like, do all humans forward into a different category of the stages that we default to? Like, so this at if if there are eight steps in the cycle, do we default? I don't think we don't experience the cycle.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:41

The content goes through the cycle.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:43

This content goes through the cycle. We play parts.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:46

The cycle hits us at different times.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:47

We play parts in the cycle. Yeah. So humans default to a part of the cycle. And then what I found interesting is the parts that we default to.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:55

Um, which I'm forgetting right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:36:57

So where it's going to hit you first. For me, it's like the satire videos.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:00

You at yeah for me.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:01

And that's why I've put it up top. Maybe it doesn't go up top. I don't know. Um, I feel like it hit you at the um, this is nonsense, guys. Like you're being baited.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:10

Yes, correct.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:13

Because that was my initial that was my initial reaction when you sent me the video the very first time. I was like, brilliant, and everyone's gonna get played.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:20

And maybe your TikTok algorithm, that would be the first videos that come up for you. You would put that at the start of the table.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:26

I don't have a TikTok TikTok algorithm.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:28

No, you've worked very hard not to have one. Good for you. You are you are better.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:32

I use TikTok, but not for me. Um, and I am oh my god, you should see what TikTok fucking recommends me. Yeah. Or recommends the brand that I'm on TikTok for.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:40

Yeah, okay. Curious.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:42

Mate. Nah, you know what? I'm not even gonna touch it.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:46

No, it doesn't it doesn't recommend bouncing.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:48

Okay, no, here's what here's what it does. Here's here's what get I get recommended too. I get I TikTok recommends, and I so I'm talking about a TikTok for a building, a building design building. Designs houses. Designs houses and stuff about layouts. Exactly. The for you page is fucking um sex workers talking about their bad experiences in like in the car, like with their tits out, like being like, guys, you would not believe what just happened to me. I was just with a client, I was like, stop fucking calling it clients.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:18

Yeah, because you're a man. You've got to work through this part of TikTok where like the first thing it does is like, are you a perv? 20k likes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:26

Um hundreds of comments. And I was like, where are these people coming from? What are these people?

SPEAKER_05 1:38:32

Are they bots? Are they who knows? None of it's real.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:35

I feel like headbutting the microphone ever thinking about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:37

Don't get sucked into it. Just go straight to the cat videos.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:40

Straight to the cat videos. Um don't let your attention get sucked in. Okay. Co star.

SPEAKER_05 1:38:48

Yes, okay. I'd almost forgotten about CoStar. This is like my favorite part.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:53

Okay, so CoStar is how we end each episode. CoStar is an app on your phone, tells you your horoscope for today. Haley is a Pisces, I am a Capricorn. We're reading Haley's horoscope, who is a Pisces.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:06

But we're probably gonna make it about a Capricorn, that's something.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:08

But I will try to make it about myself. Um this is for Haley, no one else, can't possibly be for anyone else, because only Haley was born, where she was born, age, sex, location, whatever it may be, st geographical place. Yeah. So it can only be for Haley and only for today. Not at all influenced by AI either. You are the dream, the nightmare, and the dream within the nightmare that becomes a dream.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:36

Pardon? That's very uh inception.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:40

Dream, dream, dream, nightmare, nightmare. So there's three dreams and two nightmares.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:44

Well, that makes sense, because I am a nightmare, but I am more of a dream, I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:39:48

You are the dream, comma. The nightmare, comma, and the dream within the nightmare, that becomes a dream.

SPEAKER_05 1:39:55

Yeah. So in the end it all turns out fine. It's a dream. It seems like it might be a nightmare, but it's actually a dream.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:00

I think that was just mathematics. Like if you have three dreams and two nightmares, yeah. Like if you go dream, nightmare, dream, nightmare, you're gonna finish on dream.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:10

Yeah. But you could have done another another night.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:13

If you added another night, but they didn't. They didn't. It's just that was just simple math.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:16

It's cause it's about me.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:18

There's some type of like the the number five as well in there.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:22

Like Is that a special number? Five is my eight. Maybe that's part of it. Like fifth is my birthday.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:28

Four's my lucky number, which makes sense because I'm very square.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:33

I feel like four is a number that is lucky in some cultures and then like the symbol of death in others. Do you think you're square?

SPEAKER_01 1:40:45

I think OCD is a good example of being square.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:48

I wouldn't say you're square. Very routine-driven. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:51

And a square has a good shape to like squ routines aren't octagons.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:57

They're not cycles.

SPEAKER_01 1:40:58

They're not cycles.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:59

Yes, they are.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:00

They could be an octagon, because an octagon is just a square like for four extra sides. Still got that roundness to it.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:07

That's my key takeaway from today's podcast that an octagon is just a square with more sides.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:12

Full four extra sides. I think it was a pentagon or a hexagon that I was like, can't be that, because that's three. It's not gonna work. Um all right. So uh do stress balls, bowl of soup, say it straight.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:27

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:28

Don't moodiness, stockpiles, and hibernating.

SPEAKER_05 1:41:32

Oh, that's interesting. I'll try not to be moody. I won't stockpile things. I the Matt's one of Matt's eyebrows just about shot off his face when I said, I'll try not to be moody. And I'm I mean it's fair feedback, but I'm a bit offended, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:51

I am woman.

unknown 1:41:53

What?

SPEAKER_05 1:41:54

All women are moody, is that what you're gonna say?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:56

You know that song I Am Woman?

SPEAKER_05 1:41:57

Uh is that I Am Woman Hear Me Roar?

SPEAKER_01 1:41:59

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that's what I thought I'd just say.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:01

So when you embrace it's a moodiness, you think of feminism? It's a bit problematic.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:08

That's your words, not mine.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:11

Now I'm being moody. Um I'll try not to stockpile as well. I know people are stockpiling fuel at the moment. Please we haven't touched that topic. Like, this is a fun space. This is a safe space. I've spent all week talking about resource shortages. Um stop stockpiling fuel. Just cut it out. It's bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:30

Yeah, I mean it's gonna happen. It's like I'm not at all surprised.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:35

No.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:36

Just like the toilet paper.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:37

Exactly. And look how well that worked out. I hope people are still working through their toilet paper stash from 2020.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:45

Um I'll read a bit more. Okay, you can pick the category though.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:48

No, you peek the category.

SPEAKER_01 1:42:49

No, Haley, hear it out. Luck in home and family, luck in sex and love, luck in work and money, trouble with friends. Which category would you like? I would. Family and home, love and sex, money, or friends.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:02

All right, let's talk about money first.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:06

All right. Uh someone you know is sunbathing on far away. Someone you know is sunbathing on faraway islands or dodging shark attacks somewhere in the southern hemisphere.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:19

Too much time in the sun ages the skin. You're staying dewy by using this quiet time to focus on work.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:26

Is this saying like sunched Okay. Is this saying that like I'm working my butt off while other people are off sunning themselves on a beach somewhere? But I should be happy because I'm not getting prematurely aged by staying by being in the sun.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:44

Someone you know is sunbathing on a faraway island someone you know is sunbathing on faraway islands, or this is definitely written by AI, or dodging shark attacks somewhere in the southern hemisphere. That is so like so random. Why the southern hemisphere?

SPEAKER_03 1:43:57

I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:59

Um, too much time in the sun ages the skin, you're staying dewy by using this quiet time to focus on yeah, you your interpretation was correct. Someone you know is in the southern hemisphere, and you're better off not being there.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:12

Okay, cool. I like it. Um Go on, read me out the loved one. No, no, no. Don't try and embarrass me a bit. Go on, no, let's stop.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:21

No, that's an ick, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:22

It's an ick. Why is it an ick? Because it's Is it an ick for you or an ick for me?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:26

No, no, it's like it's so obvious.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:28

Oh, it's obvious.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:28

Yeah, it's obvious that like for me, I'm like, that's the obvious one that I want to use, so I'm not I'm not going to be able to do that. You should read it out then. Alright, fuck it. Diplomacy is less important lately than truth. What comes flying out of your mouth surprises even you.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:41

That's my love one.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:42

Yeah. Sex and love.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:44

Sex and love.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:45

Diplomacy is less important lately than truth. Diplomacy diplomacy is less important than truth.

SPEAKER_05 1:44:52

Okay. So am I meant to be being more truthful and less diplomatic?

SPEAKER_01 1:45:00

Less important lately. This is what this is with the with the the opposite words thing.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:05

There's a lot of like context clues in these.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:07

What comes flying out of your mouth, which I love that sentence, what comes flying out of your mouth surprises even you.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:13

Wow. I'm excited for this. I like it when I say tell it like it is, because I do spend a bit too much time trying to be diplomatic and not just saying what I think.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:21

I'm done.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:23

No further commentary.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:25

But I mean it's guys, I know if you those who know, like I just get so they've taken they've taken it too far with those categories.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:34

Interesting. Yeah. Or having to read out the extra star. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:38

The one horoscope and the do's and don'ts, these cat these specific categories are just not it.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:44

It's too much. I mean, I do appreciate your, you know, consistent participation in that this activity. You know, I know I'm like, I've got you prisoner against your wheel here, really. But you're, you know, you're like trying to engage with it. Blink twice. Blink twice if you need responsibility. He's blinking frantically.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:04

Um that was good.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:06

Yeah. Very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:07

I think we've arrived at the end of the episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:08

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:09

Holy moly.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:10

That's pretty good.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:11

Not bad. Not shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:12

Sometimes maybe shit. Sometimes maybe good.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:16

Any other takeaways from today? Um The whole episode. From top to bottom.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:21

From top to bottom.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:21

Remembering from traveling to Kyle and Jackie O to can't remember what your second thing was. Question time.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:32

Let's go back to the top. I would I my key takeaway was I would be curious what I wouldn't listen to you talk about for$10 million. Like I think anything. Anything. Yeah. I can't imagine what I wouldn't listen to you talk about. No. Not anywhere in my life.

SPEAKER_01 1:46:49

Here's the trouble though. Like, so the problem with this world is that it's like I know that you're doing it for$10 million. So then I escalate my album. You get more belligerent. This is what I think happened to Kyle and Jackie Oh. Like that statement made me think that. Like you saying I there's nothing I would listen to makes me go, all right, let's fuck it, let's find out.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:14

It's it so we think that we're gonna be better than them because the money's worth more, but the ego is powerful, man.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:21

Yeah, I mean, I think we would be fine because we're not lizard people like they are. Like I think they're both terrible people.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:30

Um Yeah, yeah. I mean, we got this, we got this far without what they have. So I think this is a good time to become very rich and famous now.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:36

I am keen for it.

SPEAKER_01 1:47:38

Yeah, I think I I'm if I became rich and famous now, I would be happy about it. I think it would have been very problematic for me when I was 20, 22.

SPEAKER_05 1:47:46

Do you think you're like um stable and mature enough now to not let it go to your head?

SPEAKER_01 1:47:50

I have just enough awareness to I know I know to ask for help when I start spiralling. Yes, I can recognize that now. I don't think I would have been able to do that at 22.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:04

That's a nice thing to realize. Congratulations. Well done.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:08

Uh my takeaway is that I'm going to continue my social experiment checking in with people to see if they believe they're actually talking to me on the internet or whether they're talking to an AI chatbot, because it is funny watching people not short being sure about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:22

Your AI agent rep responding to all your DMs.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:26

Yeah. And you look at you knowing what an AI agent is.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:29

I know what an AI agent is.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:31

I know, I told you. I taught you about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:32

Oh, that's the only reason I know about it. You're right.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:35

It's because you told me about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:48:36

And that that video, that story only works because you knew what an AI agent was. Exactly. So I have to that I can only do this on people who knows what it is. Exactly.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:43

Otherwise, I'd be like, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 1:48:45

Yeah, because I exactly. Exactly. Yeah. Don't that's it for today, guys. We appreciate you listening, and um that's that's it. That's all I've got.

SPEAKER_05 1:48:57

Thanks for listening. Talk to you later. Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_01 1:49:01

Thanks for listening to today's episode.

SPEAKER_05 1:49:03

If you found something in this interesting or helpful, feel free to reach out to us or share it with friends who might get something out of it.