From Stephen King to Indie Horror: A Conversation with Dan Franklin

Episode Description: In this  episode of "The Nightmare Engine" podcast, host David Viergutz returns with a  update and a captivating conversation with special guest Dan Franklin. They delve into the intricacies of the horror genre, discussing the tight-knit horror community, the rise of indie horror, and their personal experiences and fears. Dan shares insights from his work in the publishing industry, including his connections with Stephen King and the emotional depth of his own horror writing.

Show Notes:

• [00:00:00] Introduction: David Viergutz welcomes listeners back to the podcast and provides an update on his recent activities, including his prolific book releases and his personal reader group, "The Nightmare Writers."
• [00:02:00] Special Guest Introduction: David introduces Dan Franklin, a magazine editor with connections to Stephen King.
• [00:04:00] The Horror Community: Discussion on the close-knit nature of the horror community and the genre's unique appeal.
• [00:07:00] Horror vs. Dark Fantasy: Differentiating between horror and dark fantasy, focusing on the human element of survival.
• [00:09:00] Dan's Book "These Things Linger": Dan describes the themes and threats in his novel, focusing on generational trauma and supernatural elements.
• [00:14:00] Scares That Care Charity Event: Highlighting a horror charity event that supports burn victims and cancer survivors.
• [00:20:00] Indie vs. Traditional Publishing: Dan and David discuss the differences between indie and traditional publishing, and the benefits of the indie mindset.
• [00:27:00] The Fear of the Unknown: Exploring the psychological and cosmic elements of horror, including mental health and existential fears.
• [00:32:00] Real-Life Horror Experiences: David and Dan share personal experiences that felt like real-life horror movies.
• [00:38:00] The Wonder of Horror: Reflecting on the sense of wonder and fear that horror evokes, and its therapeutic value.
• [00:42:00] Literary Influences: Discussing early influences in horror literature, including Michael Crichton’s "Jurassic Park" and "Sphere."
• [00:45:00] Conclusion: Final thoughts and where to find Dan Franklin's work.

Where to Find Dan Franklin:

• Facebook: Dan Franklin Author
• Books: "These Things Linger" and "The Eater of Gods" available on major platforms.
• Cemetery Dance Publications: Dan works in book design and editing.

Thank you for listening to "The Nightmare Engine"! Stay tuned for more exciting episodes.

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Transcript

David Viergutz: [00:00:00] Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the nightmare engine podcast. So I'm your host, Dave Viergutz. We are here for another episode. I know it's been a little bit, but I've been busy behind the scenes. I know a lot of you are excited for the things that we have coming up. Unfortunately, Jay Bauer is not going to be joining me for this season.

David Viergutz: It's just going to be myself, but I know you guys are going to love it anyways. And if you haven't checked out the past episodes with me and Jay, they're really, really cool. So that said just a brief update into what things I've been coming up with. I have been putting out almost a book a month at this point, and a lot of you have seen me and seen a lot of, of me and my face everywhere, and that's because I'm very busy and I enjoy being in front of you and giving you new things and giving you new stories and engaging you in ways that maybe you haven't had before.

David Viergutz: So that said, I have a lot of things planned. If you have not checked out the Nightmare Writers, which is my personal reader group, where we vote on stories every single month and I write them for you. If you have not joined to the Nightmare Writers, what are you doing? Where are you? What are you doing?

David Viergutz: Have you, you haven't gotten your Nightmare Engine ticket yet? My, my, you know, my [00:01:00] steel bookmark. Everybody loves this thing. Please join the Nightmare Writers and come see what the group is about. Because I'm done with Facebook. I'm done with Amazon. I'm done with it all. And I just want you guys. And this is the best way to do it.

David Viergutz: So the Nightmare Writers. So I will drop a link for you guys to find out. But anyways, that's enough about me. You guys know the stories are coming. I am really, really excited for this. It's not very often I get to put out an episode. I'm trying to be more consistent about it. And I brought in an amazing guest, somebody who has worked for a magazine, continues to work for a magazine and has worked closely with Mr.

David Viergutz: King, Mr. Stephen King himself. So this is a wonderful opportunity to meet Mr. Dan Franklin. Dan, how are you, sir? 

Dan Franklin: I'm doing wonderfully. It's fantastic to be here and thank you for everything. Seriously. It's great. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, man. So 

Dan Franklin: my boss is good friends with Stephen King. I sadly don't get to meet him or else I would drool and make it really awkward.

David Viergutz: And, and I think that's a accolade itself is like, my boss works for Stephen King. And it's so 

Dan Franklin: cool. Like I get to send them things in the mail and I'm like, which house is going to, it's just like, It's amazing. I love it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. What a, what a, [00:02:00] a beautiful, small connected world, but still kind of, kind of like feels good.

David Viergutz: Like, you're like, Oh man, I get to be a part of that. And that's still cool in itself. 

Dan Franklin: That's so much of the horror world though. We're not the giant genre that you get when you get romance or you get thrillers, they turn into these massive, just super, super genres, but we have, there's so much more of intimate locked in genre where it.

Dan Franklin: Like we all are tied in with each other. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And we were talking about that before. And that is our, our horror community. And people know this, especially the listeners that we are really, personal, we're, we're tight knit because we feel, and I can, I'm pretty sure I could speak like this, but we feel kind of disenfranchised from the rest of the world because we kind of get looked at like, Ew, horror, you know, what, you know, you must be a crazy basement dweller.

David Viergutz: Oh yeah, no, I 

Dan Franklin: mean, as I sit in the basement, but no, but, but it's true though, there's this sort of sneer attitude of, well, it's not really. As good as the other genres. It's every bit, every, the best part of every genre ends up being the scary, creepy parts that stick with you and [00:03:00] sink in and don't let you go.

Dan Franklin: That's.

David Viergutz: And those people, and I talked to Tim Wagner and, and Tim, and one of the things that Tim said was horror is fun. That's it. People like to be. Scared in a safe environment, you know, real horror in our world, of course, is terrifying. We don't want to, we don't want to deal with that, but like the average scare, the average, you know, horror movie or book, it's escapism, just like any other book.

David Viergutz: We want to leave our world, the horrors of the real world and go and kind of enjoy the fun horrors of a make believe world that somebody else's. And I think that is fun. I think Tim's got a great point. 

Dan Franklin: Yeah. And I think Joe Hill had something about the two different types of horror, the one where you're Where it's some horrible, whatever, monsters ripping apart the character's limb from limb.

Dan Franklin: That's fun, but then when you get the bad news about cancer or whatever, that's when it's suddenly no more fun. That's the other kind of hard that is. But the genre can touch with both of them, can go with either. It's really, it's fascinating. I love it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And it, and it allows us to [00:04:00] connect to people on the, on the most baser human elements.

David Viergutz: And you know, and especially with the rise of AI, I keep telling everybody, people ask me about AI and here's my opinion of it. I love it. And the reason I love it is because it should take the mundane parts of life away from us and let us be creative. It should leave room for things to be fun and creative and to connect better as humans.

David Viergutz: We, that's what these, these episodes are all about is just two people talking about something that we enjoy. There are plenty of marketing stuff out there and how to sell books and, and, but, but we want to unite under the fact that you author Ben or Dan, me, offer David, we get together and we talk about the things that we enjoy to a community of listeners who may feel the same way that we do.

David Viergutz: That's a human element. It's a human thing. And it feels 

Dan Franklin: good. And that's why, that's a lot of why I'm working with publishing. So this is what I'm, what I do it for. Like you don't, you get paid more money if you work the business, the jobs, the typical careers or you suit and tie [00:05:00] every day and all that. But I can't function in that.

Dan Franklin: I'm not designed for that sort of stuff. I, I like getting hands dirty. I get to play with and make books and talk with people and interact with them. It's just, it's a magical thing. It's fantastic. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. I mean, you could probably talk on this too. Is that, do you remember, what was it a month ago? We were at scares that care in Virginia, which is a horror charity group that gives money to cash money to victims and people who desperately need it.

David Viergutz: It's it's burned victims. And then it's, is it, is it cancer survivors? 

Dan Franklin: And yeah, there's three different categories. They choose somebody from each category, each time I believe, and it's 

David Viergutz: cash money. Yeah. 

Dan Franklin: Yeah. 

David Viergutz: And it's sponsored by horror writers and horror readers who gather in, in Virginia. And it's a massive gathering and it's just an amazing thing to see that kind of energy and that love come from a community.

David Viergutz: That people are like, Oh, that's not real literature, or that's not a real genre, or that's not a [00:06:00] big enough genre to matter. And it's like, it's so sad to see that, and then yet we get together and it's like, this is family, man. Oh, yeah. We fit in, you know? 

Dan Franklin: And so much of that attitude is just a cast away from old time when it was seen as sinful to read horror, to write horror, to think horrible things.

Dan Franklin: If you look at the old stories that survived the best, a lot of it's because they have terrifying elements. I mean, you can go Heck, you get to kill Mockingbird. What was scary was Bob Ewell going through the forest. I mean, that's terrifying. Or the idea of being wrongfully accused of something. You go back older, you go to these old stories.

Dan Franklin: I mean, the, what's fascinating is if it's the person fighting the dragon, you're not, it's not about the splendor. It's about the terror of a gigantic lizard monster ripping you limb from limb and roasting your insides. I mean, that's what makes it so cool and visceral and surviving. Like those stories are all sort of, they have shades of horror in them.

Dan Franklin: We just. Never really admitted it until more recently. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. [00:07:00] And, and the, the, the cool thing about horror is that we understand that there's a distinction and I'm, and I'm, I like this distinction. It's one I've, I've taught, I teach undergraduate English on occasion. And one of the distinctions I've made with horror versus like dark fantasy.

David Viergutz: Is that like in dark fantasy, there's magic and you can, you get the adventure and you can, you can, you can fight the evil and you can fight it and you win and the hero comes out on top. He's just a little more gritty and the elements are a little bit darker the story and a lot of people die versus horror, which is there's only one thing you can do and that's be a human and survive.

David Viergutz: And I'm like, I'm like, isn't that just life? We're all just surviving. 

Dan Franklin: Absolutely. It's, it's such a, there's no expectation of success. There's no, it's just, here's the threat. What are you going to do with it? And I love it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, man. So real quick, tell me, tell me the threat now that we're talking about it in, in your book, I'm gonna put you on the spot.

David Viergutz: These things linger. Tell me, tell me the threat in these things. 

Dan Franklin: These things linger, [00:08:00] the it's with ghosts and ghost eaters and that kind of thing. So a lot of the idea of generational. Depression, trauma, whatever, the things that follow from generation to generation, and what's, it's what you give your kids, it's all these things, so those themes tie in of what you get from your parents and what you give to your children, but also there is given a monstrous form that is slowly chewing its way through the main character and various other things as it's getting stronger and stronger and they're trying to deal with it.

Dan Franklin: Not always in wise and 

David Viergutz: Sure.

Dan Franklin: helpful ways, but giving, they're trying everything they can to escape this loop they're caught in, 

David Viergutz: and So that's very interesting. So it's, it's passed down. 

Dan Franklin: Some of the initially that you can basically, if you reach out to the dead, other things can hear you. And there's something that's been living in the town since in the second chapter, the guy reaches out and tries to get the attention of his, a girl he's with, of her dead brother.

Dan Franklin: And the idea is that if you reach out, you you're opening a door that other things could live out [00:09:00] there. Other things could be out there. And years later, all the different impacts that that, that, that Action calls. Then it's just snowballing over year after year and realizing what's causing it, looking back at your life, trying to patch it all together, fix things up and how it's not.

Dan Franklin: Not really something you can easily do. I mean, it's sort of like holding water. Like it starts leaking through one or you clench up, it goes through another and it's just gets faster and faster, more panicked and it's fun. I like it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. I think that's where, isn't that where the real fear is? It's always, it always leads back to one thing and that's fear of the unknown.

David Viergutz: And like, so I had this conversation with somebody, gosh, it must've been. It must have been yesterday. Somebody's asking me, like, again, about the differences between, because I write, I've written some crime thrillers, I have those through a publisher, and I've got I, I write, I've written, I started in dark fantasy because that's what I, where I thought I wanted to be, and that's what I, that's what I was reading a lot of at the time but then I was like, oh my gosh, my dark fantasy is too dark, like, I'm a horror writer, like, clearly so, but one of the things we had was, you know, it's not the fact that, Like a [00:10:00] car crash is scary, right?

David Viergutz: And a mom, a mom getting in a car crash is scary. That's not the scary part. The scary part is when she gets in a car crash and she gets a text from her, her infant that says, or her child that says, Hey, there's somebody in the house and she can't do anything because she's strapped to a gurney. That's the real terror.

Dan Franklin: Absolutely. 

David Viergutz: The, the unknown, right? And so 

Dan Franklin: it all can combine together. Like you can start with one thing, but then it all compounds and everything starts drawing and it gets worse and worse. And it happens in all kinds of horror stories. Like it's a. Pet cemetery where you have it just, Oh, moving here.

Dan Franklin: There's some bad things, but then all sorts of other little tiny cracks in the armor start coming and it just gets into this seeping dread. And it's, 

David Viergutz: yeah. So what was the last horror horror story you read? 

Dan Franklin: Oh, let's see. I just finished, um, editing or help proof editing a book that's coming out in October.

Dan Franklin: I'm going to just talk a little bit about it. I know I'm not supposed to say it's too much. I don't think it's called the Blacklands and it's it's called Sycamore. It's part of a series. It's [00:11:00] the Blacklands. It's really cool. It's just about holes tearing into reality where things are seeping through and they're trying to hide the government, trying to hide where the holes are coming, opening up.

Dan Franklin: And they don't really know how it's happening or why it's happening. And they're just, they'll tear open in the backyard or something. And then you'll have. Stuff reaching through, grabbing people, pulling it over there, and doing horrible stuff. It's just, it's, ooh, that's such a Such a wild idea, but yeah,

David Viergutz: I love the concept.

David Viergutz: I, so I have an irrational fear and on the podcast, we like to talk about fears and people know mine, but I'm gonna say it again, cause it's irrational. It doesn't make any sense. I don't like black holes. If you've ever seen like the new, like star Trek movies where the ship, that alien ship is coming through the black hole, it's kind of like, it's all spiky and stuff it's coming through.

David Viergutz: And the idea. Of, of that super massive power that we can't control that there it's, it's so powerful light can't come through. That's my irrational fear that, and, and tornadoes. 

Dan Franklin: Yeah, it's also fantastic. But I mean, all of us, it's just, 

David Viergutz: yeah, it gives you chills. Cause you're like, I cannot do anything about this.

David Viergutz: You know, and then somebody [00:12:00] told me that there's thousands and millions of black holes everywhere. And I'm like, what, no, this, this cannot be real. This cannot happen. 

Dan Franklin: It's, but it's like the line between magic and reality. I mean, a gun is magic to a deer, 

David Viergutz: like 

Dan Franklin: things that we, these are things that are way beyond, I mean, way beyond our ability to harness and control and bend under our will.

Dan Franklin: And it's, I mean, black holes destroy solar systems. That's really cool. Yeah. And it's way beyond us. So were you around 

David Viergutz: for the eclipse? Were you watching the eclipse by chance? I got 

Dan Franklin: to see a partial eclipse. And 

David Viergutz: how did it make you feel? 

Dan Franklin: I've, I got to see one a couple years ago on a beach somewhere, and it would actually turn dark.

Dan Franklin: This one, I didn't get to see it actually turn dark, I got to see it somewhat through the glasses, where it looked a little weird, it looked like twilight. But the other one, it actually turned dark, and it is overwhelmingly bizarre. Because everything, it feels like it's day, and then suddenly everything feels wrong.

Dan Franklin: Like, the birds go, everything goes [00:13:00] strange. And it's just You can, you can understand how old cultures used to say, would build whole doomsday ideas around witnessing an eclipse saying this is the world could end and really getting their mind wrapped around that after seeing it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, I was standing there and I'm looking at it and I was with my mom.

David Viergutz: And she was helping us move into a new house and and, and my mom was, was watching it and I, I could only hear her and if my mom's listening, I love you mom, but I could only hear her repeat the same thing over and over again and that's when I realized that she was in awe. You know, and, and, and my mom, she's, she's a wonderful lady, and she's been through a lot, and she's been, and, and she was a, she was a great, a great mom, and so I, I believe she's a, you know, rational, sound mind, and she, all she can say is, it's getting dark, it's getting dark, it's getting dark, and it's like 3 or 4 o'clock in the afternoon, or whatever.

David Viergutz: And then it just goes completely silent, everywhere. And I'm just thinking, like, if something terrible [00:14:00] is going to happen, now would be the time. Yep. 

Dan Franklin: And it is, it is, you get the whole insignificant cosmic difference of these planetary bodies moving around and we're just tiny insects crawling on the face, it's like It's definitely it's an experience.

David Viergutz: Yeah, and that's, and I think that's what we all are hoping for in a book. We're hoping for that feeling, that feeling of insignificance. We're onlookers, we're watching the eclipse as characters experience it and what they get to feel, the darkness. And, and the feeling of being so small and tiny in the world, I think that's what we're looking for, 

Dan Franklin: which goes to the whole planet or individual.

Dan Franklin: It's still, it is all that where it's powerlessness. And we have, we face so much powerlessness in our lives where we can make our own choices, but we're caught in. A web of something way bigger than us that we're just struggling and trying our best to navigate it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, and that's amazingly, you know, well said.

David Viergutz: That's absolutely, so it's a giant spider web [00:15:00] and we're trying to pluck at the string at the very end, try to get something in the middle to move, and it's just so futile sometimes. And it's like, all you can do is just sit back and see what happens. You know, and, and I, and I love that for horror and I love that for, for us.

David Viergutz: Specifically because we are no longer that small string, you know, the horror is up and rising. And I mean, it is, you know, people are noticing it. Readers are noticing it. 

Dan Franklin: Especially with India horror versus mainstream. And I have high respect for the mainstream and the authors in the mainstream and all that.

Dan Franklin: But Indy went from being something that was almost. It's mocked and derided to being something to now it's, you see it all over Barnes and Noble. It's, and people buy it. People read it. It's, it can offer something so raw and so different than the smoothed out file down. Well, this is, they expect a happy ending is happy ending.

Dan Franklin: Sell this many more books. And now you don't know what you think of an indie book. You don't know what you're getting. It could be. Something that could absolutely floor you, [00:16:00]or it could be something where it's just, Oh, light and just, it could be anything. And you, you get to know the individual authors more.

Dan Franklin: It's more or less about a company selling a product and more about individual authors and their style, their views and their. The horror they represent. It's

David Viergutz: yeah, it's and you've been on both sides. I mean, you've been on the trad side and traditional side and you've been on the indie side. And so what is your experience on the 

Dan Franklin: small press?

Dan Franklin: So I'm, I'm small press more, which like we, we have the fancy line and we have the less fancy line and I'm more involved with the less fancy part of it because The fancy lines, it's wonderful. I mean, I, you see a King book, you see Ben and Little, you see those guys come through it. They're phenomenal. But that project's a little, little bigger than the stuff that I usually soloed handle just ushering through where you get the little paperback where it's just You have, it can be anything.

David Viergutz: So on, and, and you know this and I'm sure you've kind of felt it from both directions is that we as [00:17:00] authors, we kind of want to be like these mini celebrities with our readers. Like we I feel. Pretty safe in saying that, like we are comfortable talking to readers. And I remember being young where I'd reach out to my favorite authors.

David Viergutz: I'd send them a letter because there's always a mailing address of, Hey, you want to talk to the author, send them a letter that's before email. And even emails aren't published nowadays, but it's like, so I'd send letters. I never wrote back anything. 

Dan Franklin: I send letters to King, Little, Brian Hodge. I send letters to all sorts of people.

Dan Franklin: I mean, it's, it's just they're, they, they say something and if you, they say something individual that each of them has their platform that they're representing and it's something, it's something special that is more than just, you don't send it to Simon and Schuster, you send it to the author. 

David Viergutz: And we can do that in Indie, we can do that and it's, and, and you can hear back 

Dan Franklin: from them.

David Viergutz: Yes and that's, that's an, that's an amazing thing. Have you had a lot of interaction with your books and doing some of the Indie side of things and, and, and talking with readers? I love it, 

Dan Franklin: I mean, I, I chat with people all the time about [00:18:00] things. If I, I draw pictures in books to send them to people because I like doing it, it helps me procrastinate and they seem to enjoy it.

Dan Franklin: So I'll, if somebody says, Oh, they want a picture of their cat drawn in book, I'll send me a picture of the cat and I'll do the best they can to draw it and send it on over to you. Like it's, it's so much more, you know, them one interesting author Josh Mallerman, I've talked to them some, he's a, Interesting blend because he has his foot in both sides.

Dan Franklin: He's so much an indie mindset on it. Like you talk with him, he's he'll talk with anybody. He'll chat about books. He loves them. You get the Janseps. They love books and they love the readers. And you think of them as, Oh, they're often this. Hi, hi position. They don't, they wouldn't demean themselves to chat with a no, but they're, it's just, they're the same indie mindset that's grown bigger and bigger and bigger.

Dan Franklin: It's even the top, the people up in the traditional side, a lot of them are becoming it's the traditional size becoming populated by indie mindset, which is. Beautiful. I mean, it's, I love [00:19:00]it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And the indie mindsets are pretty for, for those who are listening, what that is. It's the idea that we don't want to be in a tower.

David Viergutz: We want to reach you. We want to talk to you. We want you, we want to thank you personally for buying our stuff and supporting our homes and our families and our lifestyles and that that's it. That's the indie mindset. We may or may not need somebody else to be between us, a company. We may just be able to do this ourselves or maybe the head of our own company.

David Viergutz: And be out in front of our books. We got a book 

Dan Franklin: that is a little more raw in exchange. Sure. You don't have to have things shifted around and tweaked and some other editors saying, Hmm, I don't like how you need to change at the ending, which is such a shame that that was for a while, a thing. It's not.

Dan Franklin: Yeah. It's not as much now as it used to not be, but there was a middle period where there was a lot of filing down of everything, trying to make it fit in with thrillers, where the thriller people will be able to, horror can exist outside of another genre, it doesn't have to be, despite what Amazon will [00:20:00] lump it in as, oh, is it this genre, that genre, It can exist on its own.

Dan Franklin: It doesn't have to be a part of something else. It can be, but. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And so what kind of, what kind of readers would you say your, your books are for? You, personally? I 

Dan Franklin: like, I, I like kind of a little bit punishing, emotional type horror. I like, I mean, I, I, When I was in college, I had a professor talking about how you write about bad things.

Dan Franklin: You write about things that embarrass you and you try to be as blunt as you can with them. If it's, you say you had a good day, nobody cares. If you say you had a bad day, they might be interested. You say you have erectile dysfunction after watching somebody get immolated on the front lawn. Now, suddenly you're like, Whoa, I want to hear more details.

Dan Franklin: So 

Speaker 3: the 

Dan Franklin: most blunt you can go, whatever angle you want. And it's just like, you go there and. You pull it out and you show people the ugly parts. And it's, I like that kind of horror. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. The kind of what ifs, you know, like they're true. Crime is great, but, but to be honest, I, I, I care more about like [00:21:00] the descent of the character that may have committed the crime and maybe the victim to like, show me, show me the, show me the worst parts of these people.

David Viergutz: Like, and the 

Dan Franklin: parts that make you like, well, I want to identify with that guy. So they just, they just. Chopped up somebody and put them in a garbage disposal. It's like, Ooh, I don't wish, I kind of wish I had not identified as well with that guy. Cause that's now it's very awkward, but 

David Viergutz: yeah. Well, and if you've watched like the it was the it's not the Casey story.

David Viergutz: It just came out. It was I'm picturing in my head Dahmer, the, the Dahmer series. It's it's the, the creepiest, scariest part about that. Is that they show his entire backstory and kind of this idea of what led up to it. And what was kind of going on behind those closed doors. And they humanized him.

David Viergutz: You want to believe that somebody's capable of these things. It's not human. You'd rather believe that there's just some spiritual monster, right? But they humanized him. to have Michael 

Dan Franklin: Myers walking around with a knife than just have somebody who's sick and creepy and diseased and everybody else is looking away because they don't want to face the uncomfortable.

Dan Franklin: Reality of their existence, and they're getting worse and worse. [00:22:00] That's, 

David Viergutz: oof. Yeah, it's that creepiness behind the smiling face, right? It's, it was it was Dahmer, and I think there was a, there were a couple other, like, serial killers who were, like, prominent members in their community. And they're like smiling and nobody would believe them.

David Viergutz: And then it's like, I, you know, he, he's the deacon at his church and he's got 16 bodies in this basement. And it's like, 

Dan Franklin: going around being at children's birthday parties. And then, Oh my gosh. But I love, I like all kinds of, I mean, I love cosmic horror. I love the different ones. I just haven't, I don't usually write on as broad of scope as like world ending type stuff.

Dan Franklin: I love reading those, but that's I'm still, I'm, I'm a little more like the intimate, the, a smaller set of characters doing a smaller, it's easier for me to relate to a, my life going to hell than to the world exploding. The world exploding, or whatever, zombies, I can, so that's very fun, but it doesn't feel as intimate to me, which 

David Viergutz: Yeah.

David Viergutz: is what 

Dan Franklin: I like with it. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, absolutely. I I've written I wrote a space horror [00:23:00] book and I've wanted to write one for such a long time, and myself and Bo basic teamed up to write that one. Cool. It's called Aro Phobia and oh yeah, 

Dan Franklin: I didn't know that title. Yeah. Yeah. 

David Viergutz: And I was like, so surprised when the title wasn't taken.

David Viergutz: I'm like, well, I'm snatching this real quick. But it was, and my, my daughter, I love my daughter, she she sent me a, a, she was like, Hey dad, I think you have a problem with your book. And I'm like, what? And she goes, Astro phobia is like the fear of weather. And I was like, wait, what? And so I googled it and it's actually astro phobia.

David Viergutz: Weather events and stuff like that. I think that's right. But I was like, I was panicking for a minute about astrophobia. But anyways, so I, I love the idea of cosmic horror. One of my favorite movies of all time and is, is event horizon. It's probably the only movie, 

Dan Franklin: amazing movie. And we're just, the ideas that touches on are so far beyond what one movie should be able to contain.

Dan Franklin: It's. And 

David Viergutz: Astrophobia, and and recently a book that I keep telling myself not to go back and read again because I have such a long list. I have such a TBR list that I have an Excel document. [00:24:00]Like, that's how long my list is. Is The Deep by Nick Cutter. And so I absolutely love deep sea, you know, still kind of otherworldly, you know, cosmic he horror, you know, we know, so we know more about the surface of the moon than we do about the surface of our own ocean.

Dan Franklin: Absolutely, like way more. There's so much that goes and just the number of things they discover. Oh, yeah. That was supposed to be extinct 60 million years ago. No, I guess it's not cool. 

David Viergutz: This is, this is like a one celled isopod thing. And look at its weird tentacles and it, yeah, it lives by burrowing into, and you're like, what, and this has been around and we haven't killed this thing yet.

David Viergutz: Like 

Dan Franklin: I'm working on a project that does a little bit with deep sea stuff, but yeah, it's, and how much, if you look at it, they have saturation divers who live, Basically month, a month under sea, I mean, they only go up into a pressure chamber. They live their whole life in the pressure chamber. They go, they're toggled into live at 800 feet under the ocean.

Dan Franklin: The things they see down there that a lot of this never gets reported. Nobody will ever see [00:25:00] or really understand. Besides the couple dozen people who do this as their job, they, they don't even bother reporting a lot of it. It's just, you see a weird fish. It looks sort of. Nobody, you've never seen it in a book.

Dan Franklin: You can't Google it. You can't look it up anywhere. And you just say, Oh, well, that's interesting. I'll just sort of go back to my job and not think about it too much. And it's like, 

David Viergutz: yeah, or the idea that your environment is 100 percent percent designed to kill you. Like where, where you are, you have 

Dan Franklin: a that feeds in electricity, oxygen, all that.

Dan Franklin: If it pops out, everything is black and you go sinking down into forever. 

David Viergutz: Yeah,

Dan Franklin: that's 

David Viergutz: yeah. Like I think it was a movie called Pandorum where, where they ejected a bunch of pods out into space and the pods were designed to keep you alive for a very long time and they just ejected them in all directions.

David Viergutz: And so it's just. Endless nothingness forever until you basically starve or, or whatever. And I'm like, [00:26:00] Oh my God, what a, what a horrible, horrible way to go. I mean, same thing with deep sea. It's like exactly like that. Just sinking into an abyss. And it's, you mentioned, 

Dan Franklin: Nick Cutter's book and that really blends space and deep sea like really heavily leans into that.

Dan Franklin: And it works. It works in that way. It's kind of like crafty in a way. 

David Viergutz: Kind of Lovecraftian, feels very Lovecraftian, and I love that about it, feels very cosmic y, very out, out of this world, kind of ridiculous, you know, ridiculous horror, and I like that. It blends, 

Dan Franklin: all of reality starts falling apart when you get in that extreme of an environment.

Dan Franklin: It's like environment, everything just starts warping. And what is real, what isn't, it's kind of a fluid barrier. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. So that's another type of horror that I like talking about too, is like the mental health horror, right? Now there's, there's people out there who say, Hey, demons really walk this earth and it's schizophrenia, you know, if you look at there's 

Dan Franklin: well, faces of Beth is interesting blend of that at Carver Pikes book, there's a bunch of different ones that kind of touch on that and you don't, whether it's catch your own word with House on Needle Street.

Dan Franklin: There's all sorts of [00:27:00] ones to just touch on this idea of is, whether it's supernatural or not, but it is something real. It is something deadly and it takes on a persona outside of just the character. It's more than a character. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, I would say that would probably be, probably one of the scariest things I could imagine is, is, is losing my mind slowly, not realizing you're losing it.

Speaker 3: Yeah. 

David Viergutz: And that's like, holy, holy hell, like. I, you know, I'm, I'm a police officer by day trade and I can tell you that the amount of people I've dealt with in mental health crisis, the, the, almost all of them don't know they're having a crisis and that's the rough part is that you can't convince them that they're in a crisis because they don't realize it.

David Viergutz: And so they're not of sound rational mind and you want to help them. Like you don't want them to be hurting or fearful and, and it's like, what do you do? Do you like feed into the delusion? Do you feed into the mental health to try and get them to work with you or do you try to. Explain to them, you know, bring them back to reality.

David Viergutz: And it's, and the question is like, they send police [00:28:00] officers to do it. And a lot of us, like, we, we, we are doing it because we want to help this person, but we don't know how to help that person. And it's like, 

Dan Franklin: if somebody came up to me and said, you are not actually here. You are somewhere else. You're having an event.

Dan Franklin: I mean, I don't know what, how, how much, how much evidence do you have to see where you start really caving in? I mean, it's just. That's a, that's a wild idea. 

David Viergutz: Yeah, like the, the moments of lividity, right? Where you're clear for a minute and then you're like, you're back into the, into the nightmare again. And it's like so I, there's a movie and I, and the movie was okay.

David Viergutz: The part that was, there's one part that was really scary. And it was, it was, it was a movie called Grave Encounters. And so it was, it was making fun of what was it? Ghost encounters or whatever with I can't remember the guy, the black hair. And he, 

Dan Franklin: one of those old, yeah. 

David Viergutz: And he'd go explore assignments, asylums and stuff.

David Viergutz: And he, he'd make that weird face where he stared at the camera, like when something spooky happens, you know, like Criss Angel style. And, and so the movie is like, it's at [00:29:00] an old asylum and they're exploring things. And they're like, Oh, this isn't real. That sort of thing. And then of course it is real. And then along the way, and sorry, spoilers in this one, but like they hide in a closet and everything's fine.

David Viergutz: And they, you know, I'm like, okay, so it's like just a haunted house story, but they hide in a closet and they wake up and then they've got the, the, the mental health like facility wristbands on. Like they've been checked in, and I was like, Ooh, oh man. That's really good. Like, that's the spooky thing they woke up with.

David Viergutz: Just so simple is those wristbands to know that like, Oh man, like imagine, imagine if you were in a facility, and you didn't even know it. You know, and 

Dan Franklin: Would you even want to wake up at some point? Exactly. Yeah, 

David Viergutz: and and you would know too that like, you know that this isn't reality and you can't wake up I mean, I think that's where like Nightmare on Elm Street really just 

Speaker 3: Yeah, 

David Viergutz: really did well with that It's like you don't like you need to sleep You don't want to sleep because you know what's gonna happen when you do sleep and then once you there you realize you're asleep And you can't wake up and it's like oh my god 

Dan Franklin: that's [00:30:00] Absolutely.

Dan Franklin: It's all kinds of creepy. 

David Viergutz: So and Dan so what kind of what kind of stuff are you afraid of man? like what's 

Dan Franklin: I mean, you're afraid for things happen, like the things you go through in your life, you're afraid for what, like, you're afraid your kids will go through the same thing. You're afraid that you get lucky.

Dan Franklin: You're only, if I've had some bad decisions and bad things that led to me being lucky to be here, who's to say she'll be lucky, my daughter or whatever. Like, it's that kind of stuff. That's not, it's not the fun scary, but it's the real scary. The things that just. Sit with you and eat away at you. And it's, you can get that, that you'll like, you're talking about with your mind unweaving that you won't, you'll someday open up your eyes and realize you're way older than you remember that you're.

Dan Franklin: Life's flitted by and turned into something else and you don't really know what you, what you're doing here, what you've done, where you are even. It's all just a blur of confusion. That kind [00:31:00] of stuff is, it's gruesome in a different way. It's not broad scale, but it's an intimate kind of ugliness. And I don't like high things.

Dan Franklin: That's just totally, yeah, totally just lame, simple answers. I don't like standing really happy looking down. It's not even the falling idea. It's just the looking down and getting that call of the void thing that just makes you feel dizzy and sick. It's, 

David Viergutz: yeah, I mean, so, 

Dan Franklin: but let me jump off a building in Las Vegas with that harness thing.

Dan Franklin: And it was 

David Viergutz: an experience. Wait, you did it? 

Dan Franklin: So you faced 

David Viergutz: your fear and you did it. How was that? 

Dan Franklin: It was not a fun. I mean, it was interesting, but I still get like vaguely feeling like I should throw up thinking about it. 

David Viergutz: So what led you? So let me put it this way. Like there's another one. Have you heard of the nutty putty cave incident?

Dan Franklin: Yes, I have. Cave stuff, when you go in there, you get stuck head down a little bit and you can't get out because you've, you suck, you breathe out so you can [00:32:00] wiggle down a little further thinking you can get through, then you can't and you get stuck. You can't even take a full breath and you're waiting for people to try to get you out.

Dan Franklin: Loop your feet and drag and they can't and it's 

David Viergutz: yeah, it's like we're gonna break his legs. Like we'll get him out by breaking his legs. It's like no, like just just off me like 

Dan Franklin: yeah, and then they break the legs and it doesn't work and you're like you've just I'm stuck here. My heart's laboring getting weaker and weaker.

Dan Franklin: I'm freezing cold and my limbs are getting broken as they're pouring. Where they'll pour grease down trying to, it's like, oh, it's just hell. And then they, at some point say, well, let's just cement up the hole and just say, it's over. Like we'll never get him out of there. It's yeah. 

David Viergutz: So that's, there is nothing in this world that could get me to go into a cave.

David Viergutz: Like, what's the point? You know, 

Dan Franklin: I think that kind of stuff. No, none of that. You, you hear about these other, they were climbing along that they were under, underwater with a limited gas tank in a cave and they're going along the line and the line broke and they just kept going and they thought they'd be all right, it's like, no, see, [00:33:00] there's something just a different species between me and them because there's no way I would end up in that situation.

Dan Franklin: I'm just not going down there. It's just not happening. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. Have you ever had those moments in your life where you're like, I might be in a horror movie right now? 

Dan Franklin: Yeah. Tell me 

David Viergutz: about one of those. 

Dan Franklin: It can be simple things, scuba diving, whatever. You look around and it's just, you get this weird crawling feeling, just it's like something isn't you feel, you get the voyeuristic like you're being watched, seen So you've 

David Viergutz: been scuba diving?

Dan Franklin: Yeah, I did a little bit of that, and then I stopped after there was a there was a snorkeling icing where my dad didn't Survive it. But but I wasn't there for that one. That just still kind of took the, 

David Viergutz: sure. Sure. 

Dan Franklin: Didn't really get as much fun out of it, but even back going in little quarries or going in the ocean, you just, it's such a different.

Dan Franklin: You, like you're talking about being, feeling out of control of your environment where you're 40 feet down and it, that shouldn't, that doesn't sound like much, but feels like a lot when you're, you just hear the Darth Vader sound of your [00:34:00] breath and you're watching gauges and stuff, thinking it's like, okay, well, if you get stuck down here somehow, that's just that, like, it's, you feel completely.

Dan Franklin: Out of your element. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. You have, you feel the gauges give you some semblance of some feel of control, you know, like 

Dan Franklin: do, but they also are constant reminder that you're not welcome here. Like you're really not supposed to be doing this 

David Viergutz: on 

Dan Franklin: the top of the building. You're looking up at the hook swinging when they're waiting to have attached to your harness.

Dan Franklin: So obviously, so you don't actually like splatter on the ground and they're just reaching out off a building to grab this hook and bring it over to you. And it's just, this is. This is not what people are meant to do. And of course my brother was there and he's just like, yeah, this is awesome. Cause he's he was Navy.

Dan Franklin: He's just into that kind of thing. And 

David Viergutz: yeah,

Dan Franklin: I'm a guy. So I'm just like, yeah, I'll, I'll do this too. This is great idea. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. I'm not in a horror movie right now at all. 

Dan Franklin: We're in the elevator going up the, all the 88 stores are ever turning green and try not to heave on the floor [00:35:00] because 

David Viergutz: it was swaying.

David Viergutz: Was it swaying? Cause it's just 

Dan Franklin: the, it's just the elevator going all the way up and you're just looking out the window and they let you just see as you're going higher and higher and people are just disappearing these tiny little dots down there. It's 800 feet or something. And you're just going up and up and up.

David Viergutz: Well, I'll tell you this. So I have a, I have a lot of, you're talking about the ocean. I have a lot of respect for the ocean. I'm, I'm and so my family has roots in Hawaii and every time I get in the Hawaiian ocean, I feel two things. I feel just this marvel of this creation of what, what is, and then I, I feel this sense of like.

David Viergutz: Just like you said, like I shouldn't be here and I'm taking a lot of chances because there were people as we were, I'll go out and I go surfing and I'm kind of a, I'm a, I'm, I'm not an advanced surfer at all. I don't even have a whole lot of skill. I can get up on the board and keep it going. And that's about it.

David Viergutz: Like I, I'm not really the the, the supreme surfer, but I, I do enjoy it. And I have a lot of respect for the ocean, but it's like, every time I see somebody fall off, I've fallen under the water several times, you know, and every time I fall, you can see clearly under the water without. Goggles or anything because [00:36:00] it's, it's not quite as such salt content and you can see it's very clear.

David Viergutz: There is so much coral around you at all times. You, you don't even realize it and that stuff will just rip chunks out of you. Oh yeah, that's And it's like every time you fall off the board, you are taking a chance. And it's like, it just gives you that idea, this feeling like, man, I really shouldn't do this.

David Viergutz: I could fall into like a jellyfish, you know? And that, and those like Portuguese man o war, like my mom told me she got stung by a Portuguese man wrapped around her leg. 

Speaker 3: And it's 

David Viergutz: like, it exists for one thing only. That's just to eat stuff and steer you. And it doesn't have a brain. And it's like, 

Dan Franklin: no interest in the morality.

Dan Franklin: It doesn't care. It doesn't recognize that it exists. It just floats and does its thing. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And you're like, yeah, I'll put on this harness. Yeah, I'll step out over this. Yeah, I'll jump off. Like, and that's what we do. I mean, it's like, so why do we do this? You know, why do we do these things? And I think 

Dan Franklin: we like horror, I mean, things that upset and unsettle you.

Dan Franklin: Like it's, it's. [00:37:00] It's like if you have a cut in your mouth, you keep poking at it. It's, 

David Viergutz: yeah, that's exactly right. It's that, and the, the, the reminder that it's there, the feeling of being human, you know, and, and I think that's where I think people like they start to miss that, you know, like social media is just, it's, it's awful for it.

David Viergutz: It doesn't give us that feeling of, of being human. It just gives us this feeling of, of being onlookers and of being out of control. And I think we should, I think we should be reaching back and trying to, you know, not necessarily jumping off a building or going surfing. 

Dan Franklin: Go into the woods at night and just listen.

Dan Franklin: And it feels different. Like you get keyed into the, you hear things moving and it's just, it's, it's something bigger than. Bigger than the sitting in the chair, going, laying in bed, doing the usual run of things. There's a bigger world out there that we've insulated ourselves against, understandably, but it's definitely still out there, and it's, doesn't really care, I 

David Viergutz: mean.

David Viergutz: Yeah, that's a [00:38:00] sense of wonder, I'd say. Like, that's, that's like, it's like a scary wonder, but it is wonder. It's like, what, what could be there? To this day like I, I, you know, as much as, as much as like I've gone into buildings with guys with guns, I've gone into buildings that are on fire, I've done, I've done all these things.

David Viergutz: And in that moment, I don't think like what could happen. There is like a sense of wonder like, okay, I'm prepared to do something if something does happen. But I kind of dispel myself of that wonder and I just get, and I get into this, this work format where like, okay, I have a job to do. So we hide behind the job.

David Viergutz: And so we kind of do that in our lives too when it comes to things that, You know, a 

Dan Franklin: much more real job because I play with books. You actually go and like save lives, but 

David Viergutz: well, and so let me put this way, 99. 9 percent of my job is mundane. It is 100 percent Monday. 

Dan Franklin: That 1 percent is a pretty big difference.

David Viergutz: It gives me a lot of cannon fodder for, for, for books and stuff. Let's put it that way. And I normally just tap into [00:39:00] feelings. I don't have a lot of spooky stories. I've got a few. But like, I, I've, I've encountered a lady in white before and Like I've, and I do believe that there are things beyond our world.

David Viergutz: To what extent, I don't know, because I'm, I'm a Christian. So I don't, I don't really, you know, have a lot of reference as to what the, you know, the biblical teachings are of things that are otherworldly. But it's like, Hey, if you think about the Bible, it's like, Hey, we got people turning to pillars of salt.

David Viergutz: They've got floods, we've got people. 

Dan Franklin: The whole thing behind it is there's more to this world than you can see. I mean, there really is. And we've seen it demonstrably time and time again, that there's more than we can really wrap our heads around. 

David Viergutz: I think horror gives us that, man. It gives us And And, and I don't, I don't know.

David Viergutz: I, I, I was, so I was at a farmer's market yesterday, and the, the conversation I had with most people was like, Hey, I saw you sell books, but I'm not really a horror reader, but I wanted to come check them out. And I'm like, well, My books are for readers who have probably been burned by horror in the past [00:40:00] where they have been told horror is either bad or you shouldn't do it or it makes you weird or they've been told like, Hey, this is horror and it's just, you know, it's, it might be on the extreme side or might be on the slasher side.

David Viergutz: And that's not really what their thing is. And so it's like, I have that conversation with them. Hey, look like horror, you should, you should give it a chance because there's so many flavors of it. 

Dan Franklin: I go over to all sorts of different book groups, trying to say, well, They say, oh, we don't read hearts. Well, have you ever read Jurassic Park?

Dan Franklin: Well, yeah, that's not hearts. It's about a dinosaur, dinosaurs eating people. Like, you've absolutely read heart. Did you enjoy it? Well, yeah. Well, then maybe there's entry points all over to the genre. It isn't, it doesn't have to, I mean, it can be extreme, but it doesn't have to be. It can be everything. I mean, All the books that I liked growing up, whether they're horror or not, they had horrifying elements.

David Viergutz: I love that you mention that because I cut my teeth in horror on Jurassic Park and Sphere. Those two. 

Dan Franklin: They're so good. 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And [00:41:00] it's 

Dan Franklin: so real. Like, that's what sells it is if I tried to write a book about dinosaurs eating people, I don't think I could have it in me. I just couldn't. But when Prine does it, you believe him and you can smell them and it's just suddenly a, Oh my goodness, that's, Terrifying.

Dan Franklin: That's not even, that's a different level of just atavistic dread of there's big things out there with sharp teeth, the size of bananas. And we are little tiny, not 

David Viergutz: the apex predator, you know, that's like 

Dan Franklin: tools, but if you don't have the cool tools, we are pinatas, but 

David Viergutz: I, and I love that for, and I love that for.

David Viergutz: What Crichton did in those stories, because he made it more mainstream, more palatable for for, for everybody to kind of enjoy it. Like the average adult I think would enjoy Jurassic park when, but when it's like, when it, but I think the perspective that's given on it is like the lost world perspective where it's like, Hey, we're hunters and we're going to go take back, you know, the park or whatever.

David Viergutz: And it's like, no, you're not [00:42:00]

Dan Franklin: way outmatched. I mean, 

David Viergutz: Yeah. And so that's, I mean, that's, I love that you mentioned Jurassic Park. That's totally random because I was just talking to somebody about it the other day and same thing with Sphere and because, Oh, we've talked about how I got into horror, like the first couple of books.

David Viergutz: So, so it was like, was Jurassic Park on the first of your list? Like what else did you read too? 

Dan Franklin: Cause my, my mom and dad, mostly mom was super into Crichton and King and I was, I naturally sought out fantasy stuff, but I really liked the weird Dark parts of it when you have skeletal things, hunting people down, things like that.

Dan Franklin: It's like, oh, that's what you're reading for. And then I would read books because she's just had bookshelves full of them. And she didn't really think to say, don't read these ones. So you'd be, you'd end up reading these things and Jurassic Park, Relic. You get the old Stephen King, whether you're reading Christine or anything, any of these, and it's just such a.

Dan Franklin: Just it's it just changes your outlay changes your mind. It's it fills you up and it's just 

David Viergutz: and in it And it's so simple horror is horror is [00:43:00] so simple. It's like looking at something and being like what's wrong with that thing 

Dan Franklin: Yes, 

David Viergutz: and it's like man. What a what a crazy world we live in, you know, and And I want to, I'm waiting for it.

David Viergutz: I'm like begging. I'm like, somebody put out an awesome, like AI, like AI harm. 

Dan Franklin: Let me see it. There's some that touches the balance between sci fi and horror, but it usually tends towards sci fi, but you can, you can do anything with. AI type stuff you can that it lends itself towards extraordinary amounts of Material for horror.

Dan Franklin: It's yeah, 

David Viergutz: that's awesome, man I'm, i'm so glad that you got your your start kind of like I did kind of like easing I'd say like krighton is like perfect for right in between sci fi and horror like right in the middle like it's perfect 

Dan Franklin: Yeah, I mean, I remember my dad talking about he was, he just took the bar exam and then drove home.

Dan Franklin: He was reading a Solemn Slight. He was in a bus. He was riding home and he missed his bus stop. He was so caught up in reading it. And then at nightfall and he's walking back to through the city. He's just like, oh, hell no. No vampires after me. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Just walking as quick as he can.

Dan Franklin: It's like there's [00:44:00] magic in that. There's the books and you're reading them and it. fills you up with wonder and awe and fear of where you're like, I don't want to go over to the bathroom. The bathroom is pretty far away. So I'm just going to sit here until morning. That sounds like a good decision. And it's, but, but it's so powerful when you're reading it and you, it works and they actually get into that magic.

Dan Franklin: It's so powerful. I love it. Yeah. 

David Viergutz: It's, and it's, it's just fun. You know, it all comes back to that. It's fun. It's fun to be afraid when we're know that we're, we're, we're safe. And it's fun to imagine. 

Dan Franklin: And then you go, waiting to grab the next one. It's, absolutely. 

David Viergutz: Alright, man. Dan, it has been an absolute pleasure, man.

David Viergutz: Like, this has been so much fun. Yeah, 

Dan Franklin: no, I love talking to book people. You do all sorts of great things for horror, indie horror especially, but all sorts of stuff. You're fantastic, so. 

David Viergutz: I'm trying, man. I want to be part of that new rise in indie horror. Like, I want to see it come back. Like, I want to see those 80s, old school 80s paperbacks come back, you know?

David Viergutz: It's, it's, [00:45:00]

Dan Franklin: it's becoming a thing. I mean, that's one of the things with the magazine. I'm trying to get the magazine back rolling again regularly. We have the one with Stephen King has a short story he wrote for it. It's coming out and supposed to be coming out in a couple, a month or two or something, I think.

Dan Franklin: But and you have indie authors interviewed in it. You have, it's all tying together. I feel like indie is really blossoming and becoming part of the mainstream. And he's all going to blur together into this one thing that just is a evolution of horror and. makes it better represented for everyone and I'm really good.

Dan Franklin: I love it. 

David Viergutz: Good. Good. Excellent. I love to hear it. Dan. Now's the time, man. Where can people find you? Where can people find the things that you believe in? Tell us more about where we can find you so that readers know where to go. 

Dan Franklin: Mostly interact on Facebook. I, I'm in different groups, so there's books of horror groups, there's cemetery dance groups that I interact in some I, in the office, I go into the office at cemetery dance publications where I work with book design and I do editing and stuff like that.

Dan Franklin: I'm not as much the marketing people. I'm not, I don't know how to do that, but I have a website. I don't really use my website that much best to catch [00:46:00] me on Facebook. If you need anything or send me an email or whatnot, I have those listed all in there. I'm. I think Dan Franklin, author, I want to say, has my Facebook, but 

David Viergutz: Perfect.

David Viergutz: And These Things Linger, that's the most recent release, right? 

Dan Franklin: Yes. These Things Linger and The Eater of Gods are the two books I've got. I have one coming out in August. I have some other stuff. But These Things Linger is the full length novel that came out back in February, and it's the main one I'm playing with right now.

David Viergutz: Perfect. 

Dan Franklin: Thank you so much, 

David Viergutz: Dan. It's been a pleasure, man. And I know this will not be the last time I, I tend to have repeat. I want repeat people. I don't tend to, I want repeat people. I want people to come back and give us updates on their lives, the things that are happening. So I look forward to having you on again, Dan.

David Viergutz: It's been a great, great time. Ladies and gentlemen, so much for joining me on the nightmare engine podcast. I'm signing off for today. This was Mr. Dan Franklin. We had a wonderful, wonderful time. Thank you, Dan. 

Dan Franklin: Thank 

David Viergutz: you.