The Nightmare Engine Podcast
Welcome to The Nightmare Engine — a weekly show that churns with dread and drips with dark insight. Hosted by David Viergutz, the Master of Malice, this show tears back the curtain on all things horror. From the art of scaring readers to chilling interviews with guests of the macabre—authors, occultists, scholars of the strange—you'll explore the gears that keep the genre grinding.
And nestled in the static… notes from The Curator of The Dead Letters, whispering deeper truths from the shadows.
This isn’t just a podcast.
It’s a transmission from the other side.
The Nightmare Engine Podcast
Balancing Finance and Frights: James Cain on Horror Writing and Cinema Nostalgia
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Prepare yourself for a chilling journey into the world of horror as we welcome the masterful James Cain to the Nightmare Engine podcast. Balancing his life as a finance professional in the icy realms of New Jersey, James shares the unique challenges and amusing stories of keeping his horror writing persona separate from his day-to-day life. Listen as we laugh about the quirky reactions from colleagues and loved ones who stumble upon our dark tales, and embrace the peculiar joys that come with being a horror writer.
Revisit the spine-tingling nostalgia of horror cinema, as we reminisce about the thrill of VHS tapes and the iconic films that shaped the genre. From the slasher thrills of "Friday the 13th" to the cosmic terror of "Event Horizon," we explore how different environments enhance the horror experience. You'll even get a sneak peek into the eerie world of "Dead Children's Playground," where unsettling settings make for captivating storytelling.
Discover the art of crafting horror with realism, as we delve into the unpredictable nature of human behavior and the essence of survival in extreme situations. Through personal experiences and tales like "Mr. Wicker" and "Black Friday," we uncover the layers of human nature that drive the chaos and terror in our stories. With James by our side, we dissect the haunting soundscapes of films like "Sinister" and "Paranormal Activity," appreciating the intricate storytelling that makes horror an unforgettable experience. Don't miss this chance to explore the mysteries and nuances of the horror genre with us!
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Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to yet another episode of the Nightmare Engine podcast. It is another Friday night and I think we're on episode seven. I say this every week where I just I have I lose track of the episodes, and I think it's largely irrelevant. I think you care about who's on, not necessarily what order it's in, so you know. If you see a name that that's familiar to you, jump in and please, please, jump into the podcast. You love the other episodes. I think they're all worth it.
Speaker 1:I think we bring in people who who can bring insight and light into horror, and not just from a like. We don't talk about books and marketing. What we talk about is the stuff that makes horror fun and unique. Our genre has largely been kind of shoved off to the side and we love to bring it out in front of everyone and say, hey, look, this is out here for everybody. I think a lot of people may have been burned by horror in the past and that's why we're like, hey, give our stuff another try. We're right down the middle, I think you'd like it. So that's where we're at today.
Speaker 1:Like I said, it's Friday, I'm in Texas and so this has been some of the funkiest weather I've ever seen. It's between I don't know, 10 and 30 degrees on a daily. Um, the warehouse is absolutely freezing, um, but scare mail is still getting delivered, books are still getting written, um, and I've just, uh, made contact with a studio, um, for scare mail, and so that is the big announcement for this week is that, um, I'm in contract negotiations with a studio for having scare mail produced as something more. So, um, if you have not jumped onto ScareMail, it's really easy. Go to my website, davidvergootscom.
Speaker 1:Scaremail, it's a year-long horror experience. Join thousands, tens of thousands of readers across the world. We send over 50,000 letters per month, me and my team of five. Besides that, book-wise, I've got six new books, I think, planned for this year and another scare mail, and so that's it. That's all I'm going to share. We're talking a little bit about mysteries today. I had a mystery in mind for this next book, called Roanoke. I thought it was a perfect title and a perfect subject matter, of just the kind of you know what makes things weird and spooky. So that's what I'm going to be doing today. I'm actually not by myself. I've been rambling a little bit, but I'm here with a very special guest, someone I know from the community who writes amazing books, whose titles are clear and obvious of what you're going to get. So, ladies and gentlemen, mr James Cain, james, how are you?
Speaker 2:Hey, I'm good man. Thanks for having me on, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Awesome man. Hey, where are you coming in from? Are you cold over there or are you warm?
Speaker 2:I am in New Jersey and I am absolutely freezing right now.
Speaker 1:So yeah, it's snow.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, there's snow on the ground. It snowed earlier this week and now it's frozen snow, so it makes getting out in the driveway fun. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome man Well cool.
Speaker 2:What's the day job like? Day job, just finance, doing that kind of thing? Sorry, choked up. Yeah, no, just boring stuff. Trying to get my words in where I can and my love of horror and writing these books and getting them out.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so does anybody in the finance industry. Just as an aside, it's a very secure industry, right? Very boring, like you said. Numbers very straightforward, yeah, yeah, yeah. Calculations and Excel, Right. Does anybody know you write horror.
Speaker 2:A few people do A few people. Um, actually it was funny. Um. So one guy uh I worked with before. He was friends on my personal Facebook so he kind of knew uh from that and we kind of reconnected at my new job. But uh, one of um uh, after I started a couple of years ago at this, this one place, my colleagues came up to me and showed me his phone and he's like is this you? And it was my author page. And I'm like, yeah, but don't tell anybody that. So yeah, it was interesting for a while because I was under an employment agreement so I had to make sure I kept the two worlds very separate.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so did they send you in for psychiatric help. No no no, no, no, I got, I got a little, I got a little, I got a little worried at some of them.
Speaker 2:But yeah, no, so far, so good.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's kind of a funny point on all this is that they, they, at us as hard writers and they're like ah, there's something messed up with them you know, yeah, exactly, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I get. I get more that when, um, you know, when my mom wants to read my books and I'm like I don't know, but uh, especially some of the gorier ones, but she, uh, you know, she knows me by now, so I don't think it's any great surprise. Uh, what I lean towards, you know yeah.
Speaker 1:So my mom, I love her to death, but she doesn't understand. Like. So a while when I was focused on amazon where that's where I told everybody go my mom would buy all my books because she thought it was helping, so every time I had a new book come out, she'd buy it.
Speaker 1:She hadn't she never read on any of them, but she had a stack of paperbacks um in her house and so nice, yeah. So I think, yeah, I'd. No, I like to credit my first year of sales, probably just to straight straight, to my mom. So thanks, mom, if you're listening.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, my, uh, my mom insists, uh, I give her, I give her copies of all my books, I give her hard covers and she insists on paying me full price for it. So, like I'll, I'll give her a hard cover and she'll hand me 30 bucks, Amy mom.
Speaker 1:But you know it's nice of her, yeah, but it feels good, she wants to support you, and that's that's, it does, it does and she has.
Speaker 2:She has read a couple of them, so that's good.
Speaker 1:There you go. Yeah, that's awesome. Um. So, you know, like I said, I've kind of leading into mysteries, but I jumped on the finance side for a second there, Cause I'm like I've heard all the finance industry like super boring, like right, hey, it's like it's very straightforward secure it's safe.
Speaker 2:It's boring like it is, it is you know, and it's. It's good because it's giving me the time I need to kind of push into the to the writing side of things, which is where my, uh, my true passion lies yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:So on the topic of mysteries and I'm just kind of opening this up a little bit, um, because I've got like I'm starting to see there's a center of kind of a mystery, the center of all my stories, right, and it's just how deep that mystery goes.
Speaker 1:That kind of makes it interesting. So one of the right, one of the ideas I ran with was, um, the nutty putty cave incident I I've mentioned like three times in the show because it is terrifying. Um, I don't know if you're familiar with it, but basically a bunch of spelunkers went into a cave and this guy got trapped upside down basically in a two foot wide hole for like 18 hours and died All the massive blood pooling in his head and that sort of thing. And so I was like, ok, that's not really a deep mystery, but what if somebody like went back to go try to retrieve his body? And it turned out that was not the case of what happened down there. Like, that's, there's the mystery, right. And you're like, okay, so I've got this horrifying scenario, you know. And so then, like I was like, oh, okay, I need, I need a mystery that can go any direction. Right, I need something that can go any, any which direction? Um, and so I was like, well, rowan oak colony, right, I used to live on the east coast, it's famous, everybody knows about how.
Speaker 1:Like, how, we basically just dropped the ball on it. We're like, ah it, people disappeared. Like that was it. A whole colony disappeared, you know. Not not a big deal. So, on the topic of mysteries, do you have one that I could look up because I need another one that I can like go deep into the rabbit hole of like, oh man, like how far can we go?
Speaker 2:yeah, I'm trying to think I'm the same way. All my books tend around a central mystery like who's the killer, or you think it's one thing and then there's a revelation halfway through. But I'm trying to think what's a good mystery? Roanoke was always a good one, always. I've seen that a bunch of times and that's always been one that's really scary.
Speaker 2:There's one that keeps coming up. I've seen it on Facebook. It's called something about the smiley face killer. It's like a series of seemingly unrelated yeah, it's a series like unrelated killings or seemingly unrelated, but there's always a smiley face next to it. I don't know if that was something that was just made up, because obviously on social media you can never be too sure. But uh, yeah, that one, uh, you know I was. I. I keep meaning to go more into that, uh, but you know I keep getting, you know, sidetracked, chasing squirrels and ending up with something else yeah, well, and, and there's always a bit of truth to these things, right?
Speaker 1:I mean that's what makes it even more terrifying. Is you're like, yeah, like we only see the surface level of it, right, that's the part that we find interesting, but it goes so much deeper and exactly, you know, yeah, and I yeah, um, what about the Blair Witch? And and I ask about that because I watched, like the sequel, I think is what it was, or remake or something. And when they went back to go find the Blair Witch, I guess, yeah, because he thought his sister was alive after all these years, or something.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, and that was an interesting one, that definitely it was about this, go ahead yeah.
Speaker 2:No, I'm sorry. Yeah, no, I was just thinking back to when that originally came out and it's. It's funny, like I remember I was in college at the time and I was actually going over and I was visiting one of my fraternity brothers in another dorm and he was saying, yo, you hear about these kids that disappeared in the woods. And I mean, this is 1999. We don't have the internet like we do today and everything else, and I was like, wow, this is cool. And I went down the rabbit hole and I tried to find out everything I could Like. Okay, this movie's coming out. I honestly, I'll admit, I thought it was real for a minute. So like, it's almost like you could concoct those mysteries and make them so real. Yes, it's a lot different now, but it was definitely back then.
Speaker 1:I mean it was definitely an experience, yeah, and it was so cool about that movie and how they rolled that whole thing out, like they made a website. They were doing street interviews. I mean it was really like guerrilla marketing at its best, because it brought people in. It brought people in like there was like it brought people in to, to, to fuel this fire that just led to just just pure pandemonium in this little town, right and and and it worked great with the medium. I mean that that whole like oh man, that whole um, what do you call found footage, is my newest footage.
Speaker 1:Yeah, movie I try to find, even if it's like totally b-roll movie like it's just, oh yeah not good at all. Like, I love the found footage. Um, have you seen, um uh, the vhs series? Any of those?
Speaker 2:yes, I saw the first two. I gotta really catch up on them, but I really actually really like both of those yeah.
Speaker 1:So like the, the first one and the second one were really good, um, and then it starts to kind of get into like um, the haunting, a hill house, not the honey hill. Um, uh, hell house llc. Kind of like we're like the third yeah and fifth are just kind of so ridiculous.
Speaker 2:You're like okay, like you know yeah, I've only seen the first one of the hell houses, uh, which I thought was excellent, um, but I haven't seen any of the sequels yet. But yeah, the the first two vhs's, they had some really like uh, I can't remember the one and I I forget who directed it, but was the one where they go to that school and like all hell breaks loose with the demon. Yeah, there's some in that thing yeah, that one was crazy.
Speaker 2:That might be my favorite segment in all of the vhs's yeah, in the Philippines.
Speaker 1:I think it was where it was stationed, like a cult in the Philippines, and they were trying to summon something.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, it was crazy. That was a crazy one.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So those movies, especially in the short format, really really kind of fun. And then how it links everything together, I think is really what's cool too. So if anybody hasn't seen those vhs movies, they're really interesting, because there are a series of short stories that are seemingly unconnected and then you kind of get a big reveal, for the beginning and at the end, of how they are connected and so it's.
Speaker 1:It's really fun payoff, even if it's like kind of crappy on some of them, like the quality on them is kind of it's kind of awful but like um, but in the end it's it's still. I mean it. People in horror have a. I think our standard is kind of lowered over the years. You know we're like okay, what's what's next?
Speaker 2:you know yeah, I, I think there's some. There's definitely some truth to I mean, when you figure, especially those who grew up on all the stuff in the 80s, I mean there was some stuff that's pretty bad and really doesn't hold up at all. It's like some stuff I've revisited. I'm like, oh man, this is such a disappointment.
Speaker 1:But when I was a kid I loved it you know, yeah, and I think a lot of us have probably got a younger introduction into horror, you know, into the genre in general, and instead of it scaring us, I think it kind of interested us. I mean, were you the same way?
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely. I remember my first time watching a horror movie. I was like I must have been like four years old or something. I was over my cousin's house and she had Friday the 13th, part three on, and it was, I remember, right at the beginning of it. Like you know, when Jason goes and grabs his burlap sack, he was wearing before he gets the hockey mask and it was yeah. I was like, wow, this is cool. And you know, there were some that definitely freaked me out and scared me, but at the same time I was always drawn to it. No matter how bad something scared me, I was always like, no, give me more. I must have, you know, exhausted the VHS rental section of Foodtown, which is our local supermarket here, and they had a big. I probably rented every video there, probably twice.
Speaker 1:Awesome, the nostalgia of that, of going to the local VHS rental like a blockbuster and getting the next horror movie on VHS. Like that is my 90s, growing up like oh yeah, that was I, that was I mean, yeah, gosh, I miss it so much I I find myself kind of like wishing like we'd go back just a little bit and and kind of relive some of that um absolutely.
Speaker 2:I mean it was uh, you know, it's just not the same, even like 2B, which has all the the trashy movies with the trashy covers and whatnot. It just it's just not the same as holding that VHS tape in your hand and and bringing it home with you and you have no idea what to expect. You know it's like now you could just sit back, it's not good, you turn it off. But back then you paid like two or $3 for it. You want to make sure you see, see, see it through to the end.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're a lot more invested in it, right? I mean, like, because you got the back cover, you got the back cover to read and some front picture maybe, and that's it like.
Speaker 2:that's good luck, you know exactly and I'll tell you, my absolute favorite was when you used to see this video that had the coolest cover ever and then you pop it in and it literally looks like it was. It was shot on a cam recorder. You know it was somebody shot in the backyard using ketchup for blood and I'm like, oh my God, this is not. They hired a great artist, but the movie itself is not great.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, the whole budget went to, went to the, to the thumbnail.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I love it man and I don't know, I think horror hit differently differently. Back then, like one of my first introductions, to horror was like.
Speaker 1:I remember peeking around the corner of like my parents while at their house, while they were. I was peeking on the corner of the couch and I didn't know at the time but I was actually watching scenes from event horizon. That was my interaction, like seven years old, and I'm like now that I think about it, I'm like you know it's starting to explain a whole lot when you start to see event horizon at that age you know, oh right, yeah, definitely and um and, and you know, I later revisited space horror.
Speaker 1:I was like I gotta write a book in space horror because it's you know, it's just like the, the underwater right that there's a few things that I won't do, and I think those all make perfect horror movies and horror books and that's I'm not going in space, I'm not going deeper than my neck in the water and I'm not going to damn caves. I'm just not doing those three things, and if I can do that, I can avoid being in most scary movies yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you and me are on the same page.
Speaker 2:Those three things I will not do, not at all yeah, the um.
Speaker 1:So like, let's talk about, let's talk about environments a little bit too, because environments are, you know, it's one of those things. It's like, okay, it could really make a break like a horror movie or a horror book and um, and I know that that. Um, you've got a book. It's called dead children's playground and yep, what's the environment you kind of built around that. I mean because it are we set in a school, are we set at because the school is scary. School is always yeah great place for scary yeah it's.
Speaker 2:so it's funny, so that's actually based on a. There is a real dead children's playground in huntsville, alabama, and um, that's uh, that's why it's the first book in my american horror series, which is going to be all fictional stories based on real urban legends, and that one is uh, basically there's a cemetery, uh, it's the largest cemetery in huntsville called maple hill park and it's, I think, 100 acres and there's a, a ton of, uh, there's a lot of kids buried there that died in 1918 Spanish flu and the legend has it that they come out at night. There's this playground. It's a small and talk about just an unusual environment.
Speaker 2:This is a playground. It's got basically an A-frame swing with maybe five swings on it, and then there's a slide. You know one of the ones that has the um, you know it's got the rock wall, the little rock wall, and it's got different slides and you can run around the tic-tac-toe and all that and but it's all backed up to, like this, this huge limestone wall. There's all limestone caves there and, uh, apparently, at night, the legend uh has it that after usually between 10 and 3, if I'm remembering correctly at the moment, uh, you can see the swing start moving on their own and then, um, you can see tufts of dirt kicking up when people slide down the slide and there's no one there and any orbs and ghostly chills, so um yes that was just a, a fast, and everybody in Huntsville knows, I mean, the story and and I honestly didn't realize huntsville was as big of a city as it really is.
Speaker 2:I think it's actually one of the biggest cities in alabama, um, but I kind of wrote it like with more of a small town type of vibe and um, it's uh, yeah, so there's definitely, um, the the playground is the center of most of it, but there's also, like some cool things, like I took a little bit of creative liberty, but there's a, a series of three caves about a mile away. They're called the, I think they're called the three caves, and I I kind of incorporated that and it was uh, just like it was just I don't know when I, when I saw that, the name of that, when I was looking, you know, research and just the dead children's playground. It just evokes such an image. You know these ghost kids playing on the swings and everything. Actually, one of my readers sent me a video of swings moving on their own at the playground, like it was actually in broad daylight it was. It was kind of unsettling seeing it, I'm not gonna lie. Give me a little bit of a chill, oh man.
Speaker 1:That's what I'm talking about, like. That's what I'm talking about mystery at the center of all this like and then and then and then atmosphere and and you know stuff that's unusual and disturbing, like I, it's, it's perfect for horror. I mean, it is just ripe and it's all. It's all over, um, it's all around us. You know, I, I I was listening to one of stephen king's old um lectures and one of them was he was talking about how he gets his ideas, and I try to avoid this topic because it's pretty boring, because all of us, our ideas and how we generate them is generally pretty similar.
Speaker 1:We think of something as really scary or weird and we write about that. That's it like yeah, but steven, he likes to look at stuff and say what is wrong with that thing, and then he'll just start listing off things in his head and whatever sticks and won't go away. That's what he goes with.
Speaker 1:So like under the dome like was one of his books. I, I, I got about halfway through and I was like, ah, this isn't, this isn't the stephen king I like, and because you get two different kings right, you get one that's like cocaine fueled and and good, and then the other king, and so, and uh, I was reading and and he was talking about under the dome, where it's like hey, there's a dome coming down and it like chops the woodchuck in half, you know, and he says like, oh, there's a, there's a clown, what's wrong with the clown? He talks about the things that are wrong with the clown comes in and like that's that's how he generates his idea.
Speaker 1:You know, like these normal things in life, that we would experience a cave, a playground, a cemetery, and then he just starts asking what's wrong with it, you know, and that that understanding, right Of where we're trying to figure it out and we can't, we can't comprehend it, and now we're just suffering it, right, since we can't comprehend it, we can't understand it, we can't figure it out. Now we just kind of deal with it, you know, like that's what makes horror fun and unique.
Speaker 1:Um and so when you're writing and and you know we talk about the atmosphere, talk about the characters, what? What do you write about real people too, like you're talking about, like you're talking about people you know, right, or are you talking? Do you make characters up to fit the story, like, how does that work?
Speaker 2:I, I usually make characters up to fit the story, but I put a lot of myself and sometimes, and people, not necessarily, I think more uh, a lot of me, a lot of a lot of my wife and maybe some like scenarios here or there. But, um, yeah, I, I definitely I don't. I don't specifically make them. It's not like real people, but there's definitely elements of it. There's like a lot of like like in my book, my pet werewolf, there was a, you know, the the main character meets a girl and you know they go on a date and they fall in love and it actually the date was pretty much my wife and I's first date.
Speaker 2:And I'll throw little things in like that and sometimes, like, sometimes I'll read my books to my wife at night and she'll actually, you know, I'll be reading something like oh, wow, I didn't even realize I put that in there, you know. So it's sometimes it's conscious, sometimes it's unconscious, but yeah, I mean there's a lot of. You know that that reality goes and I think that what um, uh, makes it more real and that makes the characters better. I mean, in fact, sometimes I'll purposely make a character do the opposite of what I would do or I know she would do or something and it's just like because again it's that. What if you know it's that?
Speaker 1:what if scenario?
Speaker 2:and it's um, it's uh. That's where you know horror, horror can really get, get, get into it, because everybody has these fears, like in Dead Children's Playground the youngest character, kylie, she's just recovered from cancer and that that the cancer she had was actually something my son was at risk for.
Speaker 2:For the first seven eight years of his life. He has a rare syndrome called hemiphypertrophy, which thankfully has worked out OK, but he it does make him susceptible to kidney and liver cancers, and so in that case it was the well. What if it didn't happen for my?
Speaker 1:son Thank God.
Speaker 2:But what if it happened to somebody else and she actually is recovered from cancer and she's moving in. So it's like, it's like what scares me and that's one of those like sickness, especially when it comes to my kids, that's one of those things that scares the hell out of me.
Speaker 1:Sure, yeah, and and horror has got a way with affecting people and I think people are kind of adverse to to horror because they're afraid to be affected in in in a vulnerable sense, you know. But at the same time I think hard does have a place in helping people kind of deal with the things that scare them.
Speaker 1:You know the reason that we watch a horror movie and we read a horror book and we're like, oh my God, this character is so stupid, why would they do this? It's because it's probably what we would do, considering the scenario. You know, we, we throw caution to the wind and do some of the dumbest things when we're stressed and when we're afraid and when we don't understand and when we're just trying to make it. You know, and, yeah, we should split up. That sounds like a good way to cover ground, like it's not a bad thought process. We just know what it leads to.
Speaker 1:You know, you never split up, um, but characters consistently do it and and people are consistently okay with it happening because they're like, you know what in that particular scenario, yeah, it would make sense that you would do that, or they would think that way because they, they justify it to themselves and, um, and I think heart is unique like that it really just kind of draws people in, you know, it draws you and me and the average person and just says, what, if you know, what would you do?
Speaker 2:yeah and yeah, definitely, as long as it seems reasonable right, and that's that's.
Speaker 2:That's the trick. Uh, it's. It's funny because, um, you know what we deal in as, as people, that kind of create these stories is. We have to. We know that we're writing something that from the start is likely implausible. Uh, from everything we know of reality and what it is like there aren't where, like, oh, there's no such thing as ghosts, which we could debate that later. But there might be, but you know there's no, there's no werewolves, there's no vampires. So we got to take these fantastical elements and put them in a real world and make sure that it's believable in that real world scenario. Um, and that's when you know, in that real world scenario, and that's when you know. And that's the same thing with the stupid decisions. And that's always a pet peeve of mine when people get so worked up about characters making dumb decisions in in horror movies or horror books, because I know plenty of people that make lots of dumb decisions when they're not under duress. I mean, you put them in a life threatening, situationreatening situation. They're toast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and who's it? Mike Tyson. He says everybody's got a plan to get punched in the face.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:It's kind of the same way when you get into one of these horror movies or stories. It's just a character getting repeatedly punched in the face and seeing the outcome and the result and then the story that unfolds around them. Because of that and I think that's what makes it unique and in its own flavor, we can follow thrillers and epic fantasy tales where the good guy has a chance, he's got a chance to win. It's a slim chance and through his own efforts he can win and he can fight the thing and survive. But with horror all we can do is survive. There is no fighting the thing, it is just making it out. Alive is the only goal. And exactly it's through, through what I mean, through human nature, right through our own, through through will or through grit or through courage. You know, I love horror for that and because it brings just real people in and says there's no magic, there's no special powers, unless you're Stephen King on a cocaine binge, but there's nothing you can do other than survive with what you have, and a lot of times you don't have much.
Speaker 1:You know, I wrote a story. That was it. I wanted to take all the scary elements out of it, the real. You know there's a mystery at the center of it, but, like the real scary thing, there was no monster, there was no big bad. There was a big bad they thought was a big bad and it clearly wasn't the entire time. And the big bad was them, was people.
Speaker 1:And so I took six strangers and I threw them in a subway and I had a stranger come down the stairs big, tall guy, skinny guy in a suit, and he dragged a wall of darkness behind him and he just smiled and stood in front of the wall of darkness and they could not leave and it told an entire story from six different perspectives about this smiling man and they all thought that he was the big bad and it turned out the big bad is not him and so I won't reveal it, but that story is called Mr Wicker and basically these six strangers were forced to go into this scenario, dealing with each other, dealing with the things that they encountered and only going through it in a human way, and it was probably one of the most difficult stories I ever wrote because there was no monster to explain it away. It's an evil thing, it does evil things. That's why it's there.
Speaker 1:You know there was none of that. It was all human nature and you know, and I find that terrifying, I mean the things that we do to each other and to ourselves. I mean it's just like I've been a cop for about a decade. I'm still, you know, I'm, I'm still a cop. I just I volunteer when my department needs help, but but I'm, I'm a writer full time, but even now I still remember the cases right before I left, you know, and the things that people do to other people. And it's just, man don't need a mystery there sometimes are just evil.
Speaker 2:You know, yeah, I mean. Yeah, I mean my uh. My dad was a cop for 30 years, uh, new jersey state trooper, and you know he's got some stories. I mean one. He's actually involved with one very famous case, the uh ice man. I don't know if you're familiar with him. He was a mob hitman. They made a movie about him with uh michael shannon a few years ago oh really, I gotta check that out yeah, he, he alleged that he he was.
Speaker 2:He was a hitman, but he's also a pathological liar, so he alleged to kill over a hundred people. But yeah, my dad has some stories about stuff that guy did, like, uh, he hired a chemist to make him a cyanide spray and then killed the chemist right afterwards. And, yeah, and, and he even they have these things on HBO called the Iceman tapes and his interviews with this guy and he's even talking about how he told one guy he's like all right, I'm gonna let you pray for an hour and if God comes down and saves you, I won't kill you. And he left the room, let him pray for an hour, came back in and killed the guy.
Speaker 2:And that is dark, that is some dark stuff right there, you know, and it's you know, it's kind of like Cold man just cold, yeah, yeah, and it's funny because I just kind of explored that a little bit in my last book, black Friday, and that's a story, uh, basically this internet celebrity named vortex, he brings 50 strangers together, puts him in an abandoned shopping mall and he says um five million dollars, but you got to be the last one left alive to get it. And all these ordinary people uh just start massacring each other because oh, it also not to mention, there's snipers at every exit and the mall's gonna blow up in two hours. So either they fight and kill or they die yeah so and they just do some horrible things.
Speaker 2:And my favorite chapter is the one where all chaos breaks loose and I won't go into like spoilers or anything, but basically, as people are killing, like I, I usually like to write my stuff from like a very focused perspective of one character. I don't like using omnipotent perspective, but um, they, uh, it kind of switches to each. Characters are committing this brutal act and saying what led them to their dire financial situation. Like this one has credit card debt. This one has medical bills. This one owes money to the mob.
Speaker 1:So, and it's just like, it was just interesting to do, because it's like you know what scenarios can lead ordinary people to do horrible things yeah, well, and, and, and, how little they'll abandon and everything that they believe in, for something as simple as money. They think that the all their problems will be solved, you know, by, by money. Or if I just get this one thing, or if I just discover this one thing about myself, or whatever, and and the places they will go to find that. I mean, that's that's what makes it kind of scary about people, too, is that if you find that one thing that is just driving them right, there is no stopping them at after a certain point, they will do anything, and I mean anything, in a situation where they would normally, you know, they would normally not kill somebody or normally not, right, um, hurt themselves and, and man, that's so that's really cool, so that's, that is something that I've explored too. Is, is, is, can I take a whole bunch of strangers, put them together and make terrible?
Speaker 2:things happen right.
Speaker 1:I mean so the horror doesn't come from necessarily, um, you know the snipers, or them killing each other. It's the fact that they are stuck together. They cannot leave and what happens next you know right um, I used to get when I was in the army. I was in the army um about 12, 12 or 13 years ago.
Speaker 1:Um, I used to in el paso and I wasn't really the black friday type shopper, um, but what I would do is I would get really, really drunk on black friday or the night before and we'd go and sit in walmart and people watch right there at the walmart on the texas border with mexico, and it was amazing. I I mean, you're talking, you're talking all walks of life and everybody's killing each other over a $5 off TV.
Speaker 1:That was regularly priced and they just marked it down and said it was marked down. I mean, it was incredible. People stepping over each other I've seen. I saw people that would go and buy the TV and then then get in a fight with somebody and then use that TV as a weapon to fight them.
Speaker 1:I mean, like the stuff you see people do, if you just sit back and people watch for a little bit, especially like Vegas, if you ever go to Vegas, vegas is the same way, right? You take all this debauchery and put it in one place and see what people do with the excuse of because Vegas, you know, right, you know, you know the right, oh, you know you, you never do any of these things, but because Vegas, you know, let's go do it, you know. And so man, exploring the human side of things in horror is, is what what I think that we can really capitalize on. I mean, a lot of genres have to kind of like, you know, you know, romance is very close to that, right, so Rome, romance is the closest cousin to horror, is what I say.
Speaker 1:And a lot of people like what? No, and I'm like well, if you, if you, if you see that you don't like. You don't understand what I'm talking about. You don't see the substance of it. You know, um, the substance is it's all about the people. There's no magic, you know. There's no. There's no, uh quest to go on.
Speaker 1:There's no, uh, uh you know calling from this this you know, the chosen one. It is literally just people doing, people things right and right and what they're going to encounter, and horror is so unique for that, and so I say horror is a close cousin to romance. And if you just look at the people, look at what the people, do you know? I think people could relate to horror just like they could to romance. Do you think so? I mean, do you think that's a? Probably one you're like ah yeah, I can see myself doing that. No.
Speaker 2:I see what you're saying A hundred percent. It's funny. I used to. I used to have.
Speaker 2:When I first started out, I was kind of doing a blog on my website and I and I um, but you know what? The very first blog post I wrote was called why horror? And it's because horror, like we were talking about before, it's like you know, people are drawn to it even though it's like, oh, you know, I don't want to experience. People do want to experience it because it's exposure therapy. You're experiencing your fears in a controlled environment and I think probably the two strongest emotions in the world are love and probably fear, and the romance can serve one and horror can serve another, because these stories make you feel those emotions. So I get that like.
Speaker 2:If so, you're an avid romance reader. I think you're picking it up because you want to feel that love in some sense, just like you know. If, know, if you're picking up horror, you know you don't want to see people die and that may be your worst fear, but it lets you experience that because there is a little bit of an adrenaline rush, there is a little bit of a. It does get your heart pumping and it's it's definitely something you want to experience, but you don't want to really experience it, because then you're in trouble yeah, I mean, it's like those, um, those drop towers.
Speaker 1:You know the carnivals and stuff. Like you want to feel like you're dropping from the tower. You just don't actually want to jump off the tower, you know so exactly yeah, so yeah, I mean um, and I talked to tim wagner about this and he said he said horror is fun, that's it like, that's that's his whole shtick. Horror's fun. It can be fun, um, and it's okay to like it.
Speaker 1:That's the other thing is like most people are kind of nervous when they say like, oh you know, or their exposure to horror was, you know, like a b-rated slasher or something. Or you know something, maybe on the fringes of horror, where it's maybe a little too cozy or a little too extreme, you know and, um, you know.
Speaker 1:For that reason, like I would normally not like movies like saw, like saw would not normally be one that I enjoy, um, from the surface, but when you get into it and you get into the, I guess the theory and the methodology behind jigsaw and why he does it, and the, the, the mystery of it all and his connection to all these people, it becomes such a greater story. The traps the traps are just secondary, right, you know like?
Speaker 2:and they're all symbol and they're.
Speaker 1:They're all symbolic of what was going on with the character. So I think that has a lot of substance. Like that's really good versus like. When I watched hostile I was like I don't get this at all. It's like a really want. A bad wannabe saw like it's not very good, it's just kind of a slasher. So I mean, if you were going to introduce somebody to like horror like what would be your go-to book movie, doesn't matter like what would it be?
Speaker 2:you're like hey, you've been burned before by horror.
Speaker 1:Like what would you show them?
Speaker 2:trying to, I'm trying to think it is uh, for I mean, like see, my favorite horror movie is halloween, but I I don't know if I'd introduce somebody to that horror with that, because this slasher is a very specific genre and, um, you know one. I would actually tell them to a newer one because I know especially a newer. You know a lot of people don't like some of the older movies. I'd say sinister is a good one, but ethan hawke, you seen that one?
Speaker 1:yeah, and I love ethan hawke, so that's yeah, that's. That's sinister, is great. Um, I I also like the idea that, like the throwback to the tape, so it's a different medium too let's use it. So it's very clever.
Speaker 2:Um, exactly, that's a great as well it hits all the right notes and actually I think I think there was something recently that said science actually said they hooked a bunch of people up and by science that was like the scariest movie ever made, because it got people's heart rates or pulses going.
Speaker 2:So I don't know exactly what, but I mean just that it's got. It's got a mystery, a great mystery, like what happened to these kids, what happened to these families, why is it like the way everything kind of comes together, you know a main character that's getting obsessive, that's you know uh, he's got flaws because he's he's clearly chasing that dragon of his first hit book, which I guess writers can relate to too. Um, and then he's got, you know uh, his he hasn't told his family about his financial problems and like how dire it really is and how much he needs it, and getting obsessed and going down that rabbit hole and then finding out that mystery. And then just the atmosphere and those tapes were, and he did a really good job of making them grisly without making them gory.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes sense him for yeah, yeah, I I think the the most of the tapes and if anybody hasn't seen them I'm not gonna really spoil it too much, but like the tape that got me in in this. So you watch a series of tapes in the movie, but the one that got me was the lawnmower, like absolutely, you know, it was just the kid running and you're like what is going on? And it's like 30 seconds of that. And then the one second of the year like oh, my god, you know, my God, you know, and like that. That for me is good.
Speaker 2:Like you know, you know it gets that one too. What I think really sells that is the sound design, that that, that scream, that like it's just got this steady hum of the lawnmower, Like you said, for 30 seconds.
Speaker 1:And piercing scream that breaks the silence just as yet. So it's, it's definitely, definitely scary. Yeah, and for and then, for whatever reason.
Speaker 1:The paranormal activity movies hit me hard, like those movies, like every single one of, I don't care how like, how bad they got like kind of near the end, like there were a couple of scenes that just stuck with me for the entire thing. You know, one of them was was, um, like the footprints in the, um, in the, uh, the powder, and they were like, shaped like a, like a bird's footprints. I was like, oh my god. And then one of the other ones, um, I think it was the marked ones. I remember the scene where the kid was jumping, he was infected by something and he was jumping and landing on his back and the thing wasn't letting him fall. So it was like catching him like a trampoline, like midair, and I just remembered I'm like, I'm like how terrifying to know like they thought it was hilarious, right, they thought it was funny, but I was like I saw through with my horror eyes and I was like, no, that thing is saving him from hurting himself. That is not supposed to be doing. That like.
Speaker 2:And it was riding on his back, you know like it was, he was carrying it around with him and that to me, I mean, that's just that type of creepy stuff is yeah, you can't, especially because that's that's yeah, that's that, that's that believability that like that could happen, that paranormal activity, that it was just a mundane couple doing mundane things and then stuff just started and it's subtle, it's not like it's really over the top, but you're right, that scene with the flat, with the powder flower, whatever it was, and the footprints in it, I was like and then, once word demon came out, I'm like no way, that's, that's scary yeah, yeah, so the, I mean those, and then, oh, I don't know, I I always tend to confuse the two, but I really like the, um, the insidious movies too, you know, just on the topic of, because the insidious and sinister seem very, not just like in the word but like the way the layout was.
Speaker 1:You know, it's got kind of that, yeah, vibe to it, um, and I I loved all of them. Uh, there were, I think. I think insidious would be a good one um, that is, that is.
Speaker 2:That is a good one. I'd say yeah, I'd say probably the conjuring too, and it's not to the conjuring also.
Speaker 2:Um you know, it's fun, it's funny. There there's a lot of people that kind of crap on on blumhouse and they're like they make, you know, safe, generic horror. I'm like you need that. I want like solid horror with a plot. Maybe I it's not going to be the most, uh, innovative thing in the world, but you know, I just, you just won't be entertained. A good solid story, a good um, you know characters that moves it forward. But yeah, insidious was definitely um, and that's one of those ones where the characters actually it was unique because the characters actually made a really smart decision Once stuff started happening. They moved out, like literally in the first 20 minutes they move out of the house and you're like, okay, these people are smart, they don't stay in the haunted house and like, oh, wait a minute, it's not the house that's haunted with that that was a very clever twist.
Speaker 1:Well line was terrifying. It's not, the house is haunted, it's you and you're like what you know like that oh my gosh, what a brutal.
Speaker 2:Brutal line like like that's how you know you're one of the best like yeah, one of the best jump scares ever too oh, when it was behind her.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, I remember, with the music played in the background, that that shrill uh tiptoe through the tulips, tiny tim yep oh my gosh, okay, speaking of okay, so we only got a few minutes left.
Speaker 1:But speaking of tiny, of terrifying songs, look up the song boots uh, it's a poem. Boots, um, okay, it's called boots, um, just type in boots poem. It was a, uh, it was uh, it was a. It was a poem and I'm gonna botch this, but it was during the second. It was written about the british, but it was during the second. It was written about the British soldiers entering Africa during the Second Boer War. So there's a version of it that's played out over. It's performed in this way, but it's actually used during Seer school training to basically train our soldiers to be headstrong and basically teaches them to survive torture. So listen to it. It's called Boots, boots. It is one of the most terrifying audio recordings I've ever heard and it's. It reminds me of that song, tick, tock the tulip by tiny tim, because of the way it's laid out. So listen to that, um, but yeah, uh, so anyways hey man.
Speaker 1:Um, we're almost out of time. Okay, it is. It has been awesome talking about all kinds of horror stuff and talking to you and so and connecting with you all the way across the world. After all this time, you know, we've seen each other's names around and now we got to so that's great, absolutely. So real quick with what time we have left, let people know where to find you, let them know what book they should jump into and, um, yeah, Okay, cool.
Speaker 2:Uh, well, you can find me, uh, facebook and Instagram and Tik TOK, Tik, tok still around. Well, www I mean not going through the whole thing but at James Cain writes is my Tik TOK Facebook and Instagram. Uh, James Cain books on on there, my website, wwwjamescaincom. You get signed copies from all my books. I got some cool merch on there, all my latest news. You can sign up for my readers club.
Speaker 2:I do free books, serial novellas, never any charge to be part of it. So, yeah, jamescaincom backslash VIP, yeah, and then you know if you're looking to get my books, if you want some of the the less uh intense, uh gory stuff. The dead children's playground is a great starting point. Uh, my favorite book I've written so far is my pet werewolf. Uh, that one's always gonna have a special place in my heart, although werewolves are never as popular as I, uh, I would like them to be. But uh, yeah, no, I think the dead children's playground is playground's. A good, a good starting part point. If you like, the um, the scarier, more quiet stuff, uh, but if you, you know you want to go, uh, total balls of the world war, then, uh, black friday is probably your best bet.
Speaker 1:Um, I like to you know, run the gamut between uh, genres, subgenres, I should say very cool, yeah, and harlots is, do that, you know, as long as we, yeah, let people know what to expect. Hey, there's a little on the gorier side or this little on the cozier side, but, yeah, definitely you know, a lot of freedom there for us. So, ladies and gentlemen, um, thank you, thank you, james, thank you for your time, thank you for coming on, and um, for introducing yourself and uh to our listeners. And, um, and I hope this isn't the last, I hope you'll you'll join us on the show later on.
Speaker 1:So thank you.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely Thanks. Anytime man Appreciate it. I had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Perfect, all right. Ladies and gentlemen, this has been the episode, something of season, something of the Nightmare Engine podcast. It's about that time. If you're looking for me, I'm easy to find DavidVergutzcom. That. That's the only place that I recommend you go. Don't go to Amazon and buy my books. Yes, if you need to and you've got some Amazon gift cards from grandma, fine. But if you're really looking to support me and support this, this podcast, just go to davidvergutescom. That's where you'll find ScareMail, it's where you find all 23 of my novels and that's where you find the best ways to connect with me and the listeners and the other listeners on this show. So, ladies and,
