Crosslake 2 Line Opening Extravaganza

The Urbanist newsroom (Ryan Packer, Amy Sundberg, and Doug Trumm) discusses the big opening day for Sound Transit's crosslake 2 Line and what it means for the future of light rail expansion in the Seattle region. In a series of speeches from Sound Transit leaders, officials waxed poetic on the significance of the day and some argued it provided momentum as the agency heads into the next round of expansions, with several projects way overbudget.

More than 200,000 riders piled on Link light rail during the 2 Line's March 28 opening day, which led to some long lines, especially at Judkins Park Station, where they cut the ribbon. Even with lengthy wait times, it was still good enough for the second busiest day in Link's history.

This grand opening was a long time in the making. We discussed all the twists and turns over the region's history (from Forward Thrust to the Sound Transit 2 ballot measure to siting battles) to finally arrive at a light rail connection between Seattle and the Eastside.

We also discussed the variety of approaches to transit-oriented development that cities along the line took, with Mercer Island the most hesitant to add housing and even fought back against state housing rules – unsuccessfully. The area around Judkins Park, meanwhile, has seen about 3,000 homes either added or in the pipeline.

Finally, we discussed how the agency might solve its financial woes plaguing Sound Transit 3 projects so that the next new lines can open as soon as possible.

Transcript

[00:00:06] Ryan: Welcome to The Urbanist podcast, a show touching on the biggest headlines at The Urbanist and also offering a deeper look from the reporters who are breaking the stories. As an independent reader-supported publication, The Urbanist has been covering the Seattle metropolitan region since 2014. We do advocacy journalism for better cities. 


You can find us at theurbanist.org. My name is Ryan Packer. I'm a contributing editor here at The Urbanist, and we've got the rest of our newsroom here on deck. We've got publisher Doug Trumm. 


[00:00:36] Doug: Hey Ryan. What a day 


[00:00:37] Ryan: And reporter Amy Sundberg . 


[00:00:40] Amy: Hello again. 


[00:00:41] Ryan: This week's a very special episode this weekend Sound Transit opened the cross lake connection finally bridging bridging light rail across Lake Washington completing the 2 Line between Downtown Redmond and Lynnwood bringing light rail across the I-90 floating bridge. It's been a project that's been in the works for literally decades, and everyone has been waiting for this around the region. 


So we're gonna break down opening day and how we got here. 


Doug, you and I were both there yesterday morning for the speeches, ribbon -cutting, and huge crowds that turned out for this opening. What was your initial reaction to seeing, seeing that big event? 


[00:01:24] Doug: It definitely felt like a surreal moment to me, because we've been waiting for this for so long and then we're just starting to do speeches and, you know, suddenly the trains are arriving. That was just a lot of excitement. It was hard to take it all in, but it definitely sunk in especially when I was at, I got to go on an early ride as a member of the press, because they had a little cattle corral for all the VIPs, that they let us go to take pictures of. And then I stupidly got off the train again at Judkins Park and put myself in the position of having to wait in the two-hour line to get back on a train. So, uh, you have a lot of time to process your feelings in that, in that line, so, uh, I definitely, uh, got some time to do that. 


What was your experience with that? 


[00:02:06] Ryan: Well, the two-hour line was because there were so many people, that they were, they were metering how many people could get on trains at Judkins Park, right Doug? 


[00:02:15] Doug: Yeah, exactly. There were four-car trains for the opening day, which is the max Sound Transit can do. So there, each of those trains can, I think, take like 800 people, maybe more. But there were more people than that, that were waiting, thousands of people at Judkins Park. And besides the very first train, which they emptied, so there was plenty of room for all the officials and big shots, the trains were showing up and many of them were already pretty full. Because the wiser people had hopped on a train, farther up the line, so that they're, they could get to these stations, without as much wait. 


[00:02:47] Ryan: Yeah, so the main event was getting to ride across the I-90 bridge, which is the only light rail line on a floating bridge anywhere in the world. Doug, you and I both did that on Thursday for the press ride, like you mentioned. You know, it was pretty amazing. It's a engineering marvel. It's really smooth. It's great, great views. 


You know, the whole thing about this for me though, was it was a little anti climactic because the stations are kind of nondescript. We only opened, we only opened two on Saturday, but really the connection was the main thing holding back the region. And so the fact that we now can, you can now ride from Lynnwood all the way to downtown Redmond is really the big thing apart from these actual stations and the connection. 


[00:03:33] Doug: Yeah, exactly. Nondescript is a fair way to put it. It's hard to get super jazzed about the two brand new stations that haven't had riders themselves because they're freeway median stations. And Sound Transit did take some some steps to make it a better experience and some effort at kind of bouncing the sound off. 


But still you're waiting in a station that has a roar of the car and often diesel fumes or other smells going on. So not an A+ rider experience to wait at that station. Of course, on the opening day, that's not gonna slow anyone down too much. It was still very exciting. 


But another quirk of the Judkins Park Station is the whole Rainier Avenue experience. The entrance from 23rd Avenue is like pretty good experience. You come out and you're just looking at a school in a park and it's, it's a fairly pleasant environment. That's where the lid begins that keeps I 90 from impacting the top of the ridge as much as it does down in the valley. 


But on the Rainier side, you're spitting out and you're in underpass. And you know, it's not a great environment and you have to cross active tracks to get there. So there are going to be some people who have to watch their train go by because they're waiting for train traffic to clear before they can cross to go to the platform. 


[00:04:52] Ryan: What do you mean when you say you have to cross active tracks? 


[00:04:55] Doug: Yeah. This part I had forgotten about, but I noticed it at the press ride when in many of the harder core train nerds and I had remembered from the design phase, but all this had obviously been decided over a decade ago. But because you're in a freeway median, and the entrance and exit for the Rainier Avenue side, you have to cross the westbound railroad tracks, the light rail tracks to get over to that escalator, to go down to street level. 


So, there's gates there and the flashing railroad crossing sign. It's similar to Overlake Station. If folks recall riding there where you you have to cross the tracks to get to another side. And it's the environment in Rainier Valley, where you're at grade. 


But yeah, obviously that slows you down in and the Rainier Avenue is just also a long ways away. So it's the way they were forced to design the station in order to have the entrance be north of that platform crossing the westbound tracks. 


[00:05:51] Ryan: Yeah, obviously it'd be ideal to not have that at-grade crossing. It probably would have been kind of complicated to design an underpass or something like that, but  


[00:06:01] Doug: Yeah, yeah,  


[00:06:02] Ryan: Seems like something we're going to have to come back and find a way to fix like we're doing in the Rainier Valley. 


[00:06:06] Doug: Yeah. And I'm, I'm sure that's sort of evoking similar feel feelings where folks in the Rainier Valley are feeling like they get the short end of the stick. And, the more deluxe stations go to the north. So, I guess this fits in that pattern, although there have been stations where there's been at-grade crossings all over the system. 


I think statistically most of them are in the Rainier Valley. So, I don't know. Do you folks in the Southside grumble about that, Amy? 


[00:06:32] Amy: I mean, I, I think it's a real concern. You know, I feel like it's understandable if people think it's not fair. And that maybe some of the light rail stations in the South End are less safe for pedestrians, for bicyclists, or whoever. That's a real concern, especially because there's already a lot of other unsafe traffic issues going on in the same area, so it just kind of compounds, right? 


[00:06:59] Ryan: Yeah, you know, the I-90 Rainier intersection isn't great, but it is a pretty great spot for transfers now, getting on the 7, the 106, and heading down to the Rainier Valley. So that'll be, that'll be nice. And we have been covering a little bit of work to improve those ramps. There's a new, new concept that the state has to even remove one of them. The one that flies over Judkins Park and literally in the middle of a park, which is kind of wild. It'll be really cool to see that go away. 


[00:07:30] Amy: Yes. 


[00:07:30] Ryan: Obviously some, some people would like to see all those ramps removed, to get rid of a surface running ramp network right next to a light rail station. 


I can certainly get behind that if it was enough of a momentum to do that. But the near-term wins seem like also a pretty good step forward, so. 


[00:07:50] Doug: Yeah, it's a little disappointing that that ramp, you know, it's on a very slow, glacial state, TOD timeline. So, we don't have a date when that would happen, but it could be five to 10 years. Maybe advocates will be able to get them to accelerate that, but that's a lot of time for people going to that station to be crossing a ramp with some pretty speedy traffic. 


And there, there are those more incremental like crossings and things that are gonna help. Uh, but actually shutting down that ramp would be the game changer. 


[00:08:22] Ryan: The other station that opened this week is at Mercer Island. Which we've been writing up a lot about recently, because they have been in the news for their housing plans. Doug, what has Mercer Island been up to? 


[00:08:35] Doug: Well, not a whole lot when it comes to building housing, but they have been very busy when it comes to litigating to escape their responsibility to build housing, I guess as you could put it. But, some of those efforts have not worked out too well for them, at least as far as winning their end of the case. 


And you've been covering that that litigation with the growth management hearings board is what the state board is technically called that when, when there's a growth management plan that that isn't up to snuff, they're the ones tasked with trying to bring that city into compliance. 


And they lost a case last year, which put in motion them needing to redo their growth plan. And we got finally, a look at that earlier this month, which you covered. And, it's gonna force Mercer Island to allow larger buildings in that station area, but it won't impact most of the island because, they don't wanna put growth in most island. 


They value their single family zoning. But, I don't know. Ryan, do you think that, that that new plan will be the jolt that they need? I, I think it allows what eight-story buildings in some places. 


[00:09:32] Ryan: It's hard to say that it will. So, if you visit Mercer Island Station in your 2 Line explorations, you'll notice that all of the multifamily housing is directly to the south of the station in what they call the Town Center area. That continues to be where Mercer Island wants all of its growth to go in this very narrow little box. 


Even though there's areas of the city that are quick walk from the north, including a huge, amazing park, Luther Burbank Park, they're going to double down, they're going to upzone to eight stories like you mentioned, but they are, they're going to do the bare minimum until the state requires them to upzone the entire area around the station in 2029 as part of the new Transit-Oriented Development Bill. 


So that's three and a half years after this station is open. Uh, and so the bare minimum is definitely the name of the game over there. 


[00:10:24] Amy: Did Mercer Island want to have a station? I kind of feel like there is some resistance there. 


[00:10:30] Ryan: Uh, yeah, so before they were suing to not have to comply with state housing law or appealing, I should say, this decision, they had been suing Sound Transit. So, the two major lawsuits during the time of planning, design, and construction on the 2 Line, one of which was over the issue of whether or not Mercer Island is able to maintain their special access to the HOV lanes, so driver access to I -90. 


Second one was over sort of buses and whether the station was being designed in a way that didn't send a lot of buses through, through the station area. Ultimately they lost both times. They did have a fairly substantial settlement the second time, that put about $10 million into some improvements. 


So you'll notice some very nice roundabout there, which was paid for by a settlement. It's good. I think all stations should have safety infrastructure. But the way that they do it was pretty litigation forward, I guess is the way I would put that. So... 


[00:11:29] Doug: Yeah. And we did a analysis earlier this week that looked at, you know, what is the impact of that? And, you can definitely see Mercer Island is one of the laggards for sure when it comes to delivering housing near these billion-dollar investments, that require these huge engineering feats to get light rail to their island, and across for the region. 


But the Mercer Islands added 549 homes in the Town Center since 2010. So that's a 16 year timeframe. Many other cities, even those who haven't gotten light rail and relying on buses, have done a lot more than that. 


[00:12:05] Ryan: Yeah. And that story noted that all of those buildings have been five stories. Even though you've been able to go higher, with certain parameters met. But, when you get to eight stories, you're kind of doing different construction materials, and so I don't think they're gonna, even if they have the capacity on paper, gonna see these towers that they are using to balance out their growth plan. 


[00:12:28] Amy: I am also struck by the fact that Mercer Island got this safety infrastructure because, because they litigated, because they had the resources to litigate, right. And the political will, that there wasn't gonna be a huge fuss about them doing so from the people that live there. And so they get the safety infrastructure that, you know, other stations don't get. 


[00:12:49] Ryan: -hmm. 100 percent true. Yeah, I was thinking the other day about how Tacoma, which got a streetcar extension up to Hilltop, built by Sound Transit, that was initially promised at 10 minutes, and ultimately, by the time it was open, 10 -minute frequencies for the trains, and by the time it opened, Sound Transit realized that they were only going to be able to do 12-minute frequencies with their current operational plan, and I was, yeah, thinking about how, if that was, you know, imagine if Mercer Island was not getting the service that they were promised, they would, they would go to the courts and, and push, push that, but, a different jurisdiction with maybe not as much resources or prioritization of that is going to treat it very differently. 


[00:13:29] Doug: Yeah, and I don't even know if they realize what they're doing, like how it rubs everyone else in their region. Maybe, maybe they're aware of it, maybe they're not. But, it's definitely a hoarding of resources that you often see in wealthier enclaves where, you know, uh, many communities wish their freeway was in a lid and had a park on top like Mercer Island has. But, you know, most of them weren't able to get it. And a lot of places would be trying to get more out of that if they had it, by putting housing near that. And, trying to grow generally so people can use that park. And, even to have the great fortune to have their own express lanes to Seattle that they're now missing, because of light rail. They're very lucky to give 'em the first place. So like, using that as leverage to try to get this other stuff is, uh, you know, not great. 


[00:14:15] Ryan: What is it? The, the Needling's headline, the satire site, uh, Needling's headline this, this week was, Mercer Island leaves Home Alone style traps all over new light rail station.  


[00:14:25] Doug: Yeah, Yeah, Some of the discourse looking back over all that stuff like was not great. Like they definitely were afraid of the people on the trains and the buses going to the trains. Like there's not as quite as much of an embrace of transit as we've seen in, luckily, many parts of the region. 


[00:14:41] Ryan: True, I mean, you saw Bellevue respond by, to light rail by standing up an entire light rail police force, so, very similar. Um, 


[00:14:50] Amy: Well, and even the sighting of the Bellevue station right, is not necessarily where I would've first expected it to be the downtown one. And I believe that was on purpose. 


[00:15:03] Ryan: Uh, that gets into Kemper Freeman and the initial lawsuit against I-90 Light Rail. Kemper Freeman, the Bellevue property owner, owns Bellevue Square Mall, sued to try and stop the entirety of light rail on I -90, alleging that because the bridge had been paid for with gas taxes that they couldn't just turn it over to a transit use despite the fact that FTA, the federal government in the early 2000s, I think late, late 1990s said that was perfectly fine, and everything was, there was agreements and all that, and tried to get that stopped for, for years. So, yeah, I hope that Kemper Freeman had a great I-90 launch day. 


[00:15:45] Doug: Yeah, well, we will do a little bit more on that whole history. But as far as last notes from the opening day, the speeches are what the speeches usually are, and there were all lot jokes about how everything's been said, but there not by everyone, which is very, very true. 


But, I wanted to bring up that Bob Ferguson was there, which, Ryan, you noted in your piece about the opening day and he, I guess we'll give him, pat on the back gave the shortest remarks, but some transit folks are maybe even wanting to hear more from him since he's not as frequently at these ribbon cuttings as some of the other folks. 


Doesn't attend a lot of them compared to Jay Inslee, his predecessor. But, yeah, he noted, in his short speech that he really wanted to thank the people who had maintained the Homer Hadley Bridge, the floating bridge, and seemed really excited about the bridge, maybe even more so than the trains. 


I think that's very true to his politics where he, he seemed pretty focused on that in his state transportation funding as well, that he really wants bridge maintenance and road maintenance to be a focus. And it hasn't really been as focused on transit and in fact using some Climate Commitment Act funding to plug its budget that could be going for other things. 


[00:16:54] Ryan: Well, Governor Ferguson has an interesting history with Sound Transit. Was doing a little digging on that this weekend. He, he was originally on the King County Council, which I don't know that a lot of people realize, for a while. And he won his first race in 2004 against a long-time incumbent who was kind of an urbanist hero, a big champion of the Growth Management Act and keeping growth urban, and a big Sound Transit champion, Cynthia Sullivan was her name. And one of the main issues that he hammered her on was support for Sound Transit. And at that time, you know, they hadn't opened anything, and it was a lot like today when there was some... significant cost overruns and his initial position during that campaign was that that we should stop doing this. And so it's interesting to see him there on Saturday talking about the people who champion this and didn't give up, and you know, glad to have him on board now. 


[00:17:54] Amy: I think it's reflective of how popular the light rail is right now in Seattle. I think people are genuinely excited about it and I don't think it's a niche excitement either. I think a lot of people really like the light rail and that's why you're seeing like a two hour wait for people who can't wait until like next week to try it out, right. I actually, I find that very heartwarming. 


[00:18:17] Ryan: It's incredible. Yeah, I think the momentum is here. And I think we have a very special thing going on, in terms of our growing region clamoring for transit. I think it's not the case in even a lot of major cities, where their transit systems are growing and the demand is rising. I look at a place like Portland. It hasn't expanded. It initially was a really early adopter of light rail, but now the trains come every 15 minutes, and the ridership is fairly low compared to Seattle, and they're not planning any new extensions. 


[00:18:58] Doug: Yeah, I got to meet some Portland people on one of the opening day trains and they had came up to ride this, you know, this train during the opening day, in part, I suppose because, you know, there aren't a lot of these to attend over there. Granted they've built out a pretty significant system, but I think there's always clamoring for more. I guess one big difference between the systems is how much they're at grade downtown in, in Portland. And, you don't get the same kind of warp speed, speed savings, you know, as a transit rider if you're gonna be at grade through downtown. 


So, our system's taken longer to build out, but sometimes the wait is worth it. 


I think it definitely seemed like Bob Ferguson, he can't really ignore this any longer, maybe early his career he was okay being anti-Sound Transit, but, even though we have overhead wire on our trains, there's still a third rail there as far as getting in the way of transit in our region, politically anyway. 


[00:19:51] Ryan: To a certain extent, but obviously we saw this legislative session. You know, they did approve a big permit bill for Sound Transit, which was approved on clear party lines. Republicans did not want to help with that. But then Democrats didn't want to get the 75-year bond bill, which would have given some flexibility for financing these projects, including Ballard Link's tunnel under downtown, across the finish line. 


So, there I think we wrote about this a little bit in comments at the last Sound Transit board retreat by member, Fircrest Council member in Pierce County, Hunter George talking about the negative feelings, especially down south in Pierce County, over the fact that they still are still waiting on their extensions and people are really still frustrated with Sound Transit. 


I think events like Saturday are going a long way into showing that things are happening. We are expanding, we are making progress, and we are growing ridership, but those hard feelings are gonna take a while to, to work out. 


[00:20:55] Amy: I do think the timing is really interesting of what's happening nationally and internationally. And we're seeing, you know, the continued rise of oil prices, which is gonna translate to the gas pumps. And, I can't help thinking about there's a lot of people who commute, back and forth from Seattle and the Eastside, and those people are gonna be able to benefit from the light rail as those gas prices continue to rise. 


And it could be a real budget saver, right? And it just, I think, really brings home the argument that I know folks have been making for forever, that transit is an affordability issue and that it really makes a huge difference, for people making their money stretch. 


[00:21:39] Ryan: Hundred percent. Yeah. 


[00:21:40] Doug: There were definitely, several gas price references during the opening day speeches and, and some of the congressional delegation did, you know, link those... partially why they're so high is because we're in an illegal war. Yeah, that's not great as far as self-inflicted wound, but at least now folks have a little bit more of a escape hatch to not have to pay as much, if they're able to get places where they need to go a little quicker on transit, make it a viable option. 


[00:22:06] Amy: I am hoping it might also add pressure to continue building things out because as affordability, which is already on the forefront of everyone's minds, as it continues to get more and more difficult, people are gonna become more and more loud in their demands to have these kinds of services. 


[00:22:25] Doug: Yeah, it was notable that the largest applause line I think, and I don't know if Ryan, if you agree about this, but it seemed like the loudest was when Dow Constantino who as CEO kind of got the final speech, the finale. He brought up the expansion plans and that that's when people really cheered. 


Obviously people were excited about the long promised connection they got on Saturday, but, you know, he closed on the line and we're gonna get to Ballard, which ironically, that's seemed increasingly in doubt this month as the agency sort of come up with budget balancing plans that involve delays and uncertainty when that will happen. 


But clearly the crowd there was still expecting it and expecting as soon as possible and very excited about it. 


[00:23:06] Ryan: Yeah, I think that's the big tension, is the fact that the next planned expansions are kinda far out. Even...and, even, potentially some of those are at risk if the board decides to make a different approach to balancing the budget. Looking at, you know, West Seattle which is the next one...wouldn't open until 2032 even if we're staying on track and I could see that even slipping into 2033 based on kind of where we're at right now. 


And so... It's going to be a bit of a wait, and in the meantime, those projects, they aren't just transit projects, but they also bring jobs. And that's, you know, not something we talk a lot, a lot about as transit advocates, but it's a major, major driver, so to speak, of the perceived need to keep these projects moving, especially among people like Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell. 


And so not having these projects go out to construction, you know, trading West Seattle for Issaquah-South Kirkland, which isn't even a planning. I know, I think that's going to be a big consideration. 


[00:24:07] Doug: Yeah, Maria Cantwell called her her fellow US Senator, "the transit funding GOAT," greatest of all time. And that has been true of these lines, like Lynnwood Link got a ton of federal funding, and I think Eastlink was too far behind. It's billions of dollars coming in and having a, a influential senator like Patty Murray has helped sound transit a lot, but that transit GOAT is not going to be able to do much with the Trump administration that hasn't signed any new transit funding in their second run at this, the second term. 


So, you know, you're fighting with the hand tied behind your back, and hopefully we can get different kind of leadership in. But, that's gonna be a huge thing to overcome for the next round of expansions. 


[00:24:51] Ryan: Definitely. 


  


  


[00:25:03] Ryan: Doug, you wanted to talk a little bit about the history of how we got to Saturday. Obviously it was a very long road to finally opening light rail across the I-90 floating bridge. We wrote a little bit about this last week in our many pieces leading up to launch day. I did a deep dive into the history of the Homer M. Hadley and how it ended up, you know, being planned that ultimately it was always going to have high capacity transit, down those middle express lanes. But it almost didn't happen as we mentioned before with the camper lawsuit and other things. So, do you want to talk a little bit about kind of some of that, those travails? 


[00:25:43] Doug: Yeah, it's hard not to get nostalgic on a day like that. I mean, obviously the mood was mostly jubilant, but, it, it's both a source of strength. Like we, we overcame a lot to get here. Obviously, why does it have to be this hard is also a feeling that it's hard not to have as well. 


But, it depends how far back you want to go, but obviously we brought up the Forward Thrust measures in a few of our pieces over the past week. And Forward Thrust for folks who haven't been steeped in the great many missed opportunities of this region in transit and generally trying to be more of a world class city. 


The Forward Thrust measures, first one is in 1968, it would would've funded a network much like we see today with the Sound Transit 2 network now built out. A little different, not as many stations on the Eastside because back then the Eastside was still a lot of strawberry fields and empty land, green fields. 


[00:26:27] Ryan: I think Renton, Renton would have wanted that map. 


[00:26:31] Doug: Yeah, Renton they would've gotten rapid transit, under that plan, the Forward Thrust plan, but Redmond would've had bus rapid transit. 'Cause back then Redmond was just a sleepy little hamlet. But obviously things changed a lot, especially when you have Microsoft come in and, build their HQ in your town. 


So, that measure ended up not passing, although it's important to note it got over 50%, which is very frustrating in retrospect because, in this famous lore of federal transit funding back then was sort of like each city got a crack on it and then it passed to a different city if you didn't get it, the plan together. 


But our place in line went to Atlanta, which was able to pass by getting slightly over 50% like we got, except they set their bar at 50% instead of, we set ours higher at 60%. So that's kind of the great, uh, Danny, why did we set a higher bar for ourself there? may Set a bigger obstacle? 


[00:27:23] Ryan: Well it's because it was subject to bonding, 


[00:27:27] Doug: Yeah. They were relying on bonding. So they, they could have set it up, if they would've redesigned it with, to not be, rely on bonding, then, then they could have gotten the approval. I think, I'm curious. I'm not a expert on how that would've worked back then, but you know, I think they just needed to get the thing approved to get the federal money on the door, and then maybe they could have bonded later. 


But to do the regional approval vote, on bonding, then set the bar at 60. So just kind of a series of errors. They went back to the ballot in 1970 and also didn't pass then. So then this transit ma map that would've, according to at least what they thought at the time, granted that we all know all too well how those plans don't always go exactly as planned. But, they were hoping to have 1985 Rapid Transit built out to the suburbs, including Renton and Bellevue. Bus rapid transit to Redmond. But because that approval vote never happened, we kind of just twiddled our thumbs more or less. 


We relied on buses to move people around regionally. And, kind of went backwards somewhat in some areas as more, more and more people relied on, on cars to get around private vehicles. But then luckily Sound Transit did come into being. But as folks talked about Sound Move was the name of the first measure, we sometimes call it Sound Transit 1 or ST1 for short. 


That passed, but then they had all sorts of financial crisises and it took getting Joni Earl in a CEO to rock the boat, and she got many call outs and she was there. Retired now a lot of the shoutouts for righting the ship, and Sound Move was mostly about getting light rail to the airport and then back to downtown Seattle. 


They weren't able to do as much as they promised because of those financial crisis. Um, so then they were thinking about how to get the next round of things and get to Bellevue and things like that. Get to Lynnwood, get to Federal Way, with Sound Transit 2. But their first crack at it, they were still in a very much a nineties mindset, even though it was 2007. 


So they went with a Roads in Transit measure, under the assumption that would be more popular. But, it didn't work out that way. I don't know. Obviously we could have used more maintenance funding at some point, but it didn't turn out to be popular to kind of have it be a hodgepodge where people felt like they were just putting everything in it. 


[00:29:38] Ryan: Yeah, well it's important to take, take us back to the mindset in that era. You know, 2007, 2008, Sound Transit had not opened any light rail. Despite, working on it since the mid 90s. We had commuter rail to Everett and Tacoma, but that was about it on top of the buses. 


And so, you know, I think there was a clear calculation that maybe we can kind of give something for everybody. Do some roads funding, get some highway expansion projects across the finish line and also do the transit and kind of placate both sides. Ultimately, that didn't work when environmental advocates like Mike O'Brien, Seattle Council member, and Mike McGinn, not yet a mayor of Seattle, decided to oppose it, and it failed. 


And so, it took a lot of political will for Sound Transit to be like, well, we're going to do it, go it on our own, and that was very hard, especially given what happened in 2008 with the financial crisis. But ST2 did ultimately pass that year. 


[00:30:37] Doug: Yeah. And, and so this ends up being, I don't know, all this weird baggage and trauma or whatever that we carry. And luckily we threaded the needle here, but... I mean we all grew up other places, the three of us, but moved here. Is this stuff that you became aware of pretty quickly, Amy? I mean, 'Cause there are a lot of people who didn't in our region who didn't grow up here, but, you know, have to learn kind of along the way all the weird stuff we went through as a region to kind of get to the place where we have a regular metro system. 


[00:31:03] Amy: Well, I first visited Seattle in 2012, so by then there was a little bit of light rail. And I did ride it on my first trip. And I loved it, to be honest. I remember being really excited about it. And whenever I would visit I would use it. And my friends living here would talk about it. And was, was there a drill called Big Bertha? 


Am I, am I  


There was so, I heard, I heard stories. Okay. I heard, I heard various stories. And to be honest, for me, I lived in London for a year and I love the Tube. I love the Tube so much. So I'm a huge Tube fan. And the light rail reminded me of the tube a little except really, really teeny. Um, so, so I was really excited about the idea of it growing. Uh, and becoming more tube like. 


[00:31:55] Ryan: Absolutely. Fun fact about me is that I was living in Seattle when we opened the first extension down to Tukwila. The airport extension have opened a few months later, but I didn't go to it. I wasn't, uh, I wasn't, uh, a transit nerd at that time. 


[00:32:13] Doug: You haven't been train pilled yet. Yeah. It'll be nice that, you know, we have a pretty good transit culture in this region, I think. But having this mainline service and kind of a backbone, that would only help that, and people can experience the region differently now and, and get more quickly on up to speed on that kind of thing, rather than only getting to, to ride this kind of limited use line that goes from downtown. Now it goes so many other places after the initial start. 


[00:32:48] Ryan: And so Doug, you mentioned, you know, potenital budget gets at the Sound Transit Board. That does take me back to those financial issues that Sound Transit always had to deal with in terms of not being able to get its projects the finish line mostly because of a very constrained set of revenue tools that the legislature gives them. So what is going to happen with the next set of expansions? yeah  


[00:33:15] Doug: Yeah, I mean that definitely was the subtext of that exciting day is, is, you know, how do we keep this going? And, and I think most of the speeches were pretty focused on, let's, let's celebrate and let's not be too dour on a good day. But, there was an undercurrent of that there. 


And you know, the reason is 'cause sound transits long-term plans over the next couple decades are about $35 billion over budget according to the agency. And that's, that's a little bit of everything. Their operation plan it's more expensive than they thought it would be, but it's, it's a lot of the capital expansion being a lot more expensive than they thought it would be in Ballard Link, which includes the new downtown tunnel. 


It's leading the way on that front as being significantly over budget. 'cause it's the most complex and it's through downtown real estate, that's expensive to get and expensive to operate in as construction. So, you know, the question really, and they've been grappling at this at the same time, is they're rolling out this new, game changing project that everyone's been excited about and talking about how it's the biggest transit day ever in our region. I saw some people have been putting it. 


Now we gotta figure out how to get those plans back in budget because even the promised dates that they had before this financial crisis were, people were kind of grumbling about how long that would be. The last word was that, you know, you wouldn't have West Seattle Link until 2032. You wouldn't have Tacoma Dome Link until 2035, Ballard Link until 2039 and Everett Link until I think 2041. There's a little bit of uncertainty depending on how much they're able to close the affordability gap. And if they trim some stations and things like that or do more cost cutting in other ways. 


But, as much as we want that to be accelerated, it doesn't look like it's probably in the cards unless they really dramatically improve their financial outlook somehow, which, um, most likely, you know, things aren't looking good. Good. Construction inflation continues to be a huge issue. 


We see that in the highway projects too. Like the I-5 bridge between Vancouver, Washington, and Portland also is like roughly doubled in cost. So that, that's hitting all projects, not just light rail projects, but the reality is, you know, you don't get more money just because of that. 


You have to figure it out. So, the big news that we got right before this, the week before this I guess, is that Sound Transits initial plans, which are preliminary, but how they would try to balance Ballard Link would, would be to defer getting to Ballard, which, you know, that's not exciting to people in Ballard. 


I think they still want to build it, but I just think the messagings on it has kind of gotten messy. Like, what does deferring Ballard link mean? Effectively, it means there's no targeted date to open it. But that doesn't necessarily mean the agency's not gonna open it, but it starts getting really muddy when you start talking that way. 


So, I don't know if you're thinking about that differently either, but to me it's sort of like, I think they're still planning to build it, but now it's just a mess of like, what does deferring it mean? 


[00:36:06] Ryan: Yeah. 


[00:36:06] Amy: Just wanna say like, yes, it, it sucks for the people that live in Ballard, but it really sucks for all of us, right? I don't live in Ballard, but I would like to be able to take the light rail in Ballard. I like Ballard. It's a fun place. I have friends who live there. There, there are things to do there that I would like to do, and I don't go there. 


I would go there more often, right? If the light rail went there. A hundred percent. So, I feel like, all of these stations that are in question or being indefinitely postponed, it, it affects all of us, all of us here in Seattle, and all of us in the region. 


[00:36:41] Ryan: Can't disagree with that at all. I do find myself being a little bit of the person saying that the sky is not falling right now. Being the person who's in the room. I think I was one of the only journalists who stayed for the entirety of the retreat where these, these options were put on the table. 


Most of the news outlets just kind of went with what was said in statements after. Or at the briefing that they were offered the day before. So, you know, I think obviously it's not great that we would have to break Ballard up into segments. But the one thing that they're not doing right now is saying we're gonna delay projects. 


And so I think we should be cheering that. It's not getting a lot of attention. But, you know, they could easily say, alright, Ballard's 2047 now. So enjoy that, but they're not saying that, because doing these projects on time is what keeps them cheaper, relatively speaking, and, but they don't have the money to do the entire thing now, but they might. 


And so, you know, look at West Seattle as an example, you know, that was originally not originally, but a couple of years ago, 18 months ago, it was an $8 billion project. And they've been looking at ways to cut costs: eliminating extra large concourses in SoDo, looking at precast concrete segments over the Duwamish, eliminating tail tracks in, in Alaska Junction, and yes, eliminating Avalon, which in a ideal world we wouldn't be doing; we'd be able to get all of our stations in West Seattle. But, doing that, eliminating that station is optimizing the tunnel, allowing us to save basically billions of dollars. 


And so the hope for Ballard, which is about half as designed as West Seattle, is to be able to find those cost savings there and other projects and be able to, um, get more across the finish line and, and, and, So the important thing to note is that all of the projects, any deferred project is going to be designed to 30%, which is where you find a lot of these cost savings. 


If you're able to get to 50%, your contingency drops off quite considerably under FDA guidelines. And so, which is to say that there's a lot of cushion right now, especially even outside of those cost savings. And so I think if we're able to move forward on West Seattle. And you know, look for cost savings that can be applied to South Kirkand Issaquah, which isn't supposed to start construction until the 2030s, I think we would be in a pretty good place. 


And that isn't even accounting for all these new finance tools. I mentioned the bonds. They're looking at tax increment financing. They're looking at station area capture. Dow Constantine mentioned that, you know, Marshall Foster, the former head of the Seattle Center and waterfront czar of the city has been brought in to look at this real estate issues and whether we can get revenue back from broader redevelopment plans around our station, which has been low hanging fruit for a very long time. 


[00:39:50] Amy: I do find what you just said very reassuring because I have to admit, I get really stressed out when I think about light rail. And I feel very worried that, you know, we're not gonna build out what, what we originally decided to do, which would make me sad. So, whenever, whenever I see a headline I'm like, 'oh, light rail, let's see what's happening now.' But. It, it is with a sense of trepidation that I approach those stories. 


[00:40:13] Ryan: Yeah, I mean, it's important to know Ballard is not currently set to be finished by 2039. So if we're able to get a second tunnel under downtown, built all the way to Seattle Center or Smith Cove... I think the city is going to push hard for Smith Cove because terminating a line at Seattle Center would be kind of a disaster for everybody if you can imagine buses having to terminate there and having to come back and restart construction right next to the Seattle Repertory Theater and KEXP would just be crazy. And so that's the big push. 


But if we're able to do that, that would be a huge win. And, if we're able to come back in 2032, 2035, 2036, and say we figured it out, we're able to do that next segment, you know, maybe the King County is able to really utilize its derelict properties, you know, that seems totally off the table now in terms of the King County Admin Building, being sold and the proceeds put into, you know, redevelopment that could help to, to get the line across the finish line. But if you can think about what that would look like in 10 years, then the doors are, they're a lot more open. 


[00:41:22] Amy: And I do think, I mean, whenever I feel discouraged about the present day, I remind myself that. I don't know what's gonna happen first of all. And then I look back at history and we just opened light rail over, over the lake. It's amazing. And I'm sure there were points as we discussed the history at length. 


I'm sure there were points where it seemed like that was not going to happen or there's so many issues and problems that had to be surmounted and there was so much advocacy done in order to continue to push electives to do, to do the job. And, and now we have it and it's, it's wonderful. Right? So, I do take inspiration from that. 


[00:42:00] Ryan: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that all home. Amy, all packaged up together. I think that's really one big takeaway. I have from this weekend. I don't want to tell advocates don't push. You should be pushing. Pushing is huge. I was at the Sound Transit Board on Thursday. It was a packed house, and it was amazing to see, and there were signs. 


Don't defer. Don't, don't give up on light rail to Ballard. Don't give up on light rail to Issaquah, Tacoma, Graham Street. And so, it was incredible to see. People were chanting build the damn trains and it was pretty great and I want to see that continue. But I also worry about doom and gloom and you know, whether that just kind of turns people off from being hopeful about what we could achieve. 


I mean, I just step back and like, like I said, like, I think it would be incredible if we were able to keep on track and get that tunnel under Downtown Seattle finally built. 


[00:42:56] Doug: Yeah, I think it's just been hard to connect all the pieces because Sound Transit has sort of I guess methodically been going through this decision. But it doesn't always present all these in one place. You know, they were looking at the single tunnel option, and they basically rejected it, at least as something they were seriously considering. 


It's sort of linger in the background as a fallback, I guess. And there's some council members like Dan Strauss who resides in Ballard, who are, are still kind of pushing it. And, I think there's very specific reason for that, namely that he's trying to frame this as a decision either to build that the downtown tunnel or the tunnel to Ballard. Which they could also build it as a fixed bridge potentially, but Ballard really pushed for it to be a tunnel in part, to decrease impacts on Salmon Bay and the Fisherman's Terminal. But, both of those elements do not fit in the project budget, which is hugely over budget. 


So, building a single tunnel would be really complicated, would change their plans because they're pretty skeptical they can fit three lines in one downtown tunnel. So, they went through that study and said it would be really complicated. How do you tie in the Ballard line to the existing tunnel? When it wasn't designed for that? It's really challenging and involves carving a new tunnel into the existing environment near Westlake Station. Not easy to do. But maybe they could engineer a way and it seems like Dan Strauss might be pushing for that at some point as a means to try to make the point that getting to Ballard should be the priority. 


And, it's admirable that they think they could keep Ballard Link if it's Smith Cove link. I guess, on time to the 2039 timeline. Or thereabouts. You know, I think to people in Ballard that still feels like a delay, I guess 'cause it would be to Ballard. So I don't know. It's complicated. And, Strauss was one of the people framing those studies as unacceptable and a disappointment. And needing to do better, and have options to get to Ballard on the table so they can look at 'em, rather than it being segmented and deferred. 


So it all like, I guess all comes down to framing, but if Dan Strauss's actions are any indication the Ballard contingent is not thrilled with the way this is going. 


And, I personally can see the logic of building the tunnel. 'cause it is the most complicated. And the more we push that down the road, the more it just gets harder to do as downtown real estate generally gets more expensive and more congested with all the buildings that go up and everything. So I can kind of see that. 


But I guess to some extent the same is true of trying to make a same big crossing. It's not gonna get cheaper. So, they might see it the same way. But, there's definitely network benefits for the whole system to have that second tunnel so that the whole thing can be more reliable and they can take part of it offline to do maintenance in one tunnel and run one run trains more trains through the other tunnel and not have these huge disruptions like we see now when they have to do maintenance. 


It's a really complicated thing and it's hard to communicate. I certainly hope that when we do make the decision, that those rocks will be turned over, and it won't feel like it's happening in a bunch of vacuums that are hard to connect. I'm torn between being, yeah, don't be doom and gloom, but at the same time, I can see why Ballard's kind of freaking out. 


[00:46:10] Amy: I mean, I think it just underlines the importance of ongoing advocacy. To appreciate this huge win of getting across the lake, and to celebrate that and to really, you know, let it sink in and be happy. And also to realize the advocacy, it never ends, right? There's no, there's no stopping point. 


There's always gonna be a next thing. And individually, if you need to take a break or if you need to step back a little bit for a while and take care of yourself, by all means, that's the most important thing. But also that together, as a collective, we can continue to advocate for the expansion and the changes that we want to see. 


[00:46:48] Ryan: Absolutely. Totally agree with that. 


[00:46:52] Doug: Yeah. It becomes a slog if... this might be the last crisis we face, well knocking on what it hopefully is, but, if you're a Ballard Link advocate, you have your 13 to 20 or whatever years of, of work before you, so it's, yeah, it's more a marathon than a sprint. So you gotta pace yourself, I guess.  


[00:47:08] Amy: Yeah, exactly. And to realize that it is kind of a one day at a time, one decision at a time sort of endeavor. Which can be rough, right? Psychologically, emotionally speaking, but still pays off. 


[00:47:22] Doug: And if they're lucky, like a lot of these smaller decisions will add up to enough savings once they all add 'em up and it, it is possible, but, it's a big amount of money you need to save. One thing that Dan Strauss brought up at a town hall he hosted in March, which I attended in Ballard at the community center was... he's been pushing for cost sharing to be a little bit different. And the region is going to cost share the second downtown tunnel 'cause it's so expensive and it will help the whole system. It'll increase frequencies for everybody because there won't be a bottleneck with the single tunnel. 


Specifically, the downtown segment is going to be 51% North King, where Seattle is and 49% the rest of the region. So that helps the budget so it's not all in the North King subarea, 'cause Sound Transit has this principle of subarea equity, so that one part of the system isn't spending significantly more than they're bringing in. 


But Dan made the argument that they should also apply that to even more of the tunnel that would go all the way to Seattle Center because the Seattle Center is of regional importance he argued. I haven't seen the math how much that would save from North King's budget, but it's not gonna like single handedly close the gap, but it would help, I don't know if that's politically palatable, but it could be another thing to chip away. 


[00:48:40] Ryan: Yeah, the cost sharing is going to be huge. Yeah, I think, Pierce County's share of the downtown tunnel, which is only like around 7%, I believe, uh, based on ridership, which is interesting because it will be the Tacoma Dome extension and ultimately uses that, that tunnel to get to Ballard and, and, but ultimately everywhere else. 


So, yeah, that's going to be huge, I think, in the coming months. It's worth noting that even if, even if we just did a Ballard to Westlake segment, cut out the new tunnel, Just, you know, did a stub thing, that wouldn't really solve the problem because you're not having that cost sharing happening at all. 


It would all be put on Seattle and the North King subarea, which includes Shoreline as well. So that isn't really a exit strategy. 


[00:49:26] Doug: It definitely seems like the battle lines that are forming, and some of this is just natural for what is convenient and effective to message and make not a slogan, but, you know, be simple enough to be a political rallying point is, you know, I think the build the damn trans coalition, which the Transportation Choices Coalition led and put together. 


It's build the damn trains like don't cut anything. Like you know, they might, they, they might ultimately be okay with some of these, like Avalon station, getting cut because it gets light relative junction faster. But, the general principles don't cut anything. But then that sort of leads the question of, is anything worth rethinking? 


Like, the one that comes to mind obviously is Boeing Access Road being turning into this, massively expensive in-fill station that's only projected to get like a few thousand riders. So, is that something we should be reopening or is the value you get from just making a blanket principle, better in the long run than relitigating some of these iffy station choices that might not get a lot of riders but will be expensive. 


And the flip side is like maybe you want to keep Graham Street Station 'cause it is in a little bit more of a area with a lot of housing and potential for more. And it's been long promised to community whereas, and I guess you could argue it's long, both have been long promised, but, anyway, are we in a place where we could potentially cut one in-fill station and keep the other? Or is it gonna be all or nothing? 


[00:50:54] Amy: I've seen a fair amount of advocacy for Graham Station online, and I feel like as we spoke about earlier, the South End of Seattle, District 2 sometimes gets the short end of the stick. So I feel like that would be a very painful station to cut because of that, I would hope that they would not do that. 


[00:51:12] Ryan: Yeah, they're very different stations. I think Graham Street is a clear slam dunk for access and TOD. Yeah, I think it's clear. 


Yeah. 


  


[00:51:31] Ryan: Well, we're running out of time. Thanks so much for joining us on our 2 Line cross -lake connection extravaganza episode. Any final thoughts that, Doug or Amy, you wanna jump in and bring to the conversation? 


[00:51:46] Amy: I just hope people, like I said before, I hope people really, you know, enjoy this moment, enjoy the opportunities that crossing the lake, uh, brings from whichever way you're going, right. The opportunity to go to more events, to see your friends, to commute more easily. It's a very exciting time and I hope that we can use some of that energy momentum to carry us into the future. 


[00:52:08] Doug: Yeah, that's a great point. And I would just add on that to say make a reason to ride the trains. You know, even if it's just a look at the scenery, that's a pretty good reason. But you know, now so much more of the region is easily accessible by transit, in a timely fashion. 


So whether that's going to a show at Marymoor Park this summer, checking out a restaurant in Redmond or Bellevue or even Mercer Island, for folks on the, the west side of the metro, it's worth a trip over there, just to explore and get to know more of the region, in a closer way. 


So I'm definitely gonna try to do that. There's usually some interesting stuff at Marymoor, and if not, the park's a great place to walk around, even if you're not going to a show. 


[00:52:47] Ryan: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm excited. Really excited to... i'm, I'm gonna be honest and say the number one thing I'm most excited about is just being able to get to Bellevue City Council meetings more easily. So, maybe that is a little too honest of me. 


[00:53:01] Amy: I think it's great. It's a reporter mindset. I would feel the same. 


[00:53:06] Ryan: Their city hall is that, nice. 


[00:53:08] Doug: Yeah, and it's right by the station, so I, anything that makes it easier for Ryan to get to more places that's great. And you're reporting so invaluable. So thanks, thanks again for, for all the stories you've found along the way. 


[00:53:20] Ryan: I appreciate that Doug. Well thanks so much for joining us on this Urbanist Podcast episode. We'll be back with you another two weeks to talk about the big transit and housing news all around the region. Thanks again. 


[00:53:33] Doug: Thanks everybody and get out there on those trains.