John Ferguson - How to Embody Greatness - Career Club Live - Part 2

Join us as we embark on a captivating exchange with industry leader, David Taylor, former CEO of Proctor and Gamble. Taylor shares profound insights into the challenges and rewards of building diverse teams, likening the process to crafting a beautiful quilt – it may take longer, but the outcome is well worth the effort. As we navigate this conversation, you'll glean wisdom on how to nurture top talent, even if it means letting them go to achieve their fullest potential. We also tackle the tough topic of handling team turbulence, discussing the need for grace, empathy, and a firm resolve to unearth and address the root cause.

Transitioning into the world of recruitment, we dive into the critical role attitude plays in hiring. Taylor enlightens us on how to pinpoint the right attitude, bridging the chasm between skills-based hiring and attitude-based hiring. We also underscore the vital importance of self-advocacy – being able to articulate your skills to meet job prerequisites can be the difference between seizing an opportunity or letting it pass you by. As we wrap up the discussion, we emphasize the power of manifestation in your career trajectory. This episode is a treasure-trove of actionable insights and practical advice guaranteed to make your work relationships more enriching and your professional life more fulfilling. Don't miss out!

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

I love it. You know we. David Taylor is the former CEO of Proctor and Gamble and he told us one time None of us is better than all of us. Isn't that a great line? It is. You're giving me some good lines here, bob Dude. I'm just a good listener. None of us is better than all of us, and you know that. That culture of like, truly listening, truly trying to understand. You said such a. You said two important words to me. One was empathy, right, and then the other was relationship, and it takes time to build relationships. And you make such a great point too, about the homogeneous groups getting out of the gate quickly. Sure, right, because they have, they can find their common threads much more easily.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Yeah right.

Speaker 1: 0:48

But then you think about, you know, a beautiful quilt. It's got all these patterns and colors. It's probably harder to make one of those and just a solid green thing. But, man, once you get that quit, it's, it's a work of art. It's just harder to get there, but a Benefit is worth the effort. So I really like how you, how you were sharing about that, getting out of the gate faster, slower, but hang on, because one I'm gonna take you to a completely different and better place. Yes, so that's cool. So we talked about you know the relationship extends beyond the, the career or the our time there, and you used to line about not holding good talent hostage which it was and helping people really unlock their potential.

Speaker 1: 1:39

Could you impact that idea a little bit.

Speaker 2: 1:42

Yes. So that kind of goes to. You know, sometimes you got to go to grow a lot of times as leaders. The top talent is probably looking to grow and possibly go. You want to keep on because everything's working well for you.

Speaker 2: 1:56

But I think if you're really dedicating into in Developing people, in helping them reach their success path I didn't say career path or career development, but their success path a success path is gonna be full of pivots, turns and twists, because where I am today, I probably would not have told you this when I finished, when I graduated from Furman University, so that was a success path that got me here. Our career path is very linear, is very one plus one plus one. That's not life. Life doesn't come in this like that. And so when you think about not holding good talent hostage is knowing that I have partnered with you and you have been able to achieve this outcome. And what's better than seeing someone that you've helped either shape, mold or guide become an expert and get to the next level, but I would even say be better than I am. I think that's the ultimate goal for me.

Speaker 2: 2:53

I don't want people to be almost as good as me. I want people to be better than me If I could contribute to your success in that type of way, because people have done that for me. I think about my parents and what they achieved in life. They are all. They made me who I am, but I'm sure I have surpassed what they wanted for me or what they wanted for themselves. We want each generation to be better than the next, and so I think you should take that same concept into the people that you are leading in the workplace. I want you to be better than the next, I want you to be better than me, and so don't hold good talent hostage. When you see because you can see the size where they're you know they're looking for something else. You're looking to be stretched further and you're probably thinking well, the only other way you can get stretched is to take my job. Okay.

Speaker 2: 3:36

And you're kind of like well, I'm not going anywhere, but your network can help them find your job at another organization and then continue to grow and climb the corporate ladder.

Speaker 1: 3:46

Well, I tell you what that takes a lot of courage to do that and a lot of confidence, because you know, if you feel threatened by that, that's going to be a very challenging move for somebody to make. But I'm so glad that you referenced your parents because, as you were talking right before, you said that I was thinking this is like being a parent. You get more joy out of seeing your children do well than you do. Any parent knows that. That's a true statement. You get more joy out of seeing your children do well and, as a leader, I get great joy out of seeing my teammates or my clients do well. I mean, that makes me really happy. I get a little bit of a dopamine when I'm doing okay, but with somebody that I've poured into takes off, it doesn't get better than that.

Speaker 2: 4:34

Yes, I'm, I'm. I think I've shared before like my daughters have been the greatest teachers to me, and personally and professionally. And so, while I don't think that the workplaces is like this family unit, but it is a place where we spend a lot of time and it is a place where we want to invest in people and this is a place where we want to see people be successful, but similar to a family unit, we may have some road patches, but that means we just need to slow down and be intentional with our communication. I'm being on like okay, let's try to figure out what the root issue is here, because we can dance around it all day, but guess what? It's still going to be the elephant in the room.

Speaker 2: 5:13

Let's have enough grace, let's have enough empathy to say let's sit with this workbeat and figure out what we need to adjust, what that adjustment looks like or whatever the turbulence that we're feeling because I heard someone say the day, every day, is going to end, but it says another saying is that every storm is going to run out of water, run out of rain, and so, in that same concept look computation. We're not even going to be thinking about this, but while we're here it feels like a lie. It's a big emotion for us, but let's unpack it, because we're going to be better for it if we unpack it.

Speaker 1: 5:45

Well, honestly, that really gets back to empathy and trying to truly understand, like why are you feeling this way? What are the underlying dynamics? And sometimes, believe it or not, it's got nothing to do with you. It may not even have anything to do with work. It could be my mom is sick and I'm feeling a ton of pressure because my siblings aren't pitching in blah, blah, blah, whatever some story is. But that's true and that's what they're actually feeling, and when you can take the time to do that and be available, that they trust you enough to kind of say hey, john, here's what's really really going on. Thank you for telling me. Let's figure out how to accommodate that. I can see you are under a lot of stress and it's popping out in different ways, because it's going to pop out some way somehow. So I think and you used to word grace, I think that's a really great word too- Well, we talk about the relationships.

Speaker 2: 6:37

You have to have relationships to even be able to pinpoint that. I'll never forget one of my professors from undergrad, dr Cynthia King. I was having just a rough semester, probably having writer's block, had a paper due and I just had to start. I just couldn't get going and she asked me. She said well, john, how are you? I'm not going to lie about I sat there and cried like a baby because I just had all these emotions built up. But she simply asked me how are you? This was like my senior year and I just had a bit of a breakdown. But once I got that through and she talked to me, she coached me, I went home, wrote the paper, got a great grade on it.

Speaker 2: 7:12

But you have to have a level of relationship and ability to understand and read people to know that like there's something else going on here, and so that's why I always like to make sure I'm checking in with people. I had a call with someone the other day and I just thought I asked like hey, this has been great. I was like how's your mental, how are you holding up, how is life treating you? Because we can always talk about work, but how is life? And? And they said they gave, they said it was going well. But something, something moved me to say like, let me check in with you because you're giving me this and they said everything's going well.

Speaker 2: 7:49

and I take their word for it. But at least I opened the door for that person to maybe say something.

Speaker 1: 7:53

That's exactly right and I know that you genuinely care. That is not a checkbox question, no.

Speaker 2: 8:00

And it's not an everyday question you, you, you, when you work with people because we spend more time probably with our coworkers than we actually do awake at home with our family. So you, you understand they're nonverbals, you pick up on these things, but do you have the courage to really say what's going on and I'm not talking about work, but are you okay and then sit back and leave room for them to respond and then whatever they respond with, you know if they need a resource or they need time, or if they need a, you know whatever it is how can you help them in that moment?

Speaker 2: 8:31

Because we all want psychological safety and sometimes we get to that place of feeling that safety in a different manner, different cadence, different rhythm. But we want to make sure that people know that when they come to the workplace we're a big part of your life and we shouldn't have to suppress certain things because it's the workplace. If we're going through life and life is life, and how can we partner with you in that? And so that goes back to building a people first company culture.

Speaker 2: 9:01

You know we had a conversation as a department the other day and we were talking about bereavement, leave and you know it came up. We're looking at our policies. No, you have three days for XYZ If these people you know are deceased, and we're like that sounds very transactional. That doesn't. That doesn't feel like it has empathy and compassion in it. And so we're going through a setting now like how should we phrase that? Because what we, what we identified, was that what it says here in this policy. It says that that's not actually what we do If you've had some significant moment in your life.

Speaker 2: 9:41

We're going to partner with you to give you the time and the resources you need. But if you read this handbook and you read this bereavement policy, on your first day You're like, okay, well, that's just a quick transaction, and we said so. If you're only seeing it for the first time, you don't know how we're actually doing it. And so I was like we need to make sure that when people see it for the first time, they get a feel for our people first company culture. So we're going back and looking at the language. Is it compassion leap? I don't know what it is and we're gonna work through that, but we don't want it to feel like, hey, if you lost your mother, you get two days off of work to go take care of that and we expect you back. So it's being intentional and making sure you're looking at the languages. That is, the language using your policies and your manuals. How are you communicating to your employees? Because words matter.

Speaker 1: 10:25

Words do matter. You know, I don't know if you heard during the intro of this episode, but I was saying that we've got an innovation in the out placement category that we call next placement, and one of the biggest losses you can go through life is losing your job and sometimes turnovers involuntary. Sometimes it's got nothing to do with the employee, it's just business conditions. Things happen and layoffs or whatever are very top of mind for a lot of people and the insight was very much. What you were just describing is these are not cells on a spreadsheet, these are real people who've got to go home tonight and say honey, I had a really bad day at work and I'm afraid I feel shame. Sometimes I'm angry, but there's this whole grieving process that people need to go through and they're not ready to go start working on the resume tomorrow morning or networking with people, and so that's what we've tried to do with next placement is bring those mental health resources and community, because that's actually what people need initially when they're going through a loss.

Speaker 1: 11:29

Similarly, what you're saying, like with a bereavement policy, is it's not quite that. You know, three days, you're over it, move on with your life because we need you back in tax accounting. So no, no, no, no, no, no. And so I like how you said that, john, that you know, does our policy and the way it's worded actually reflect, one, how we behave, and two, we want people to know that we actually do care and that this isn't just some XYZ, almost like the tax code, you know, kind of a prescription for a get over your grief.

Speaker 2: 12:02

Yes, I'll tell you. When I first joined NASCAR, I met with my team. You know one-on-one sessions and I had a set list of questions. I just kind of touched in with people on and I said what was your greatest, what has been your greatest memory of your time working at NASCAR? And there was two things that popped out. One was their experience at maybe their first Daytona 500 race, which is mind-blowing the size of it, the energy that takes over the entire city of Daytona Beach. But the other one, consistently, was how the company wrapped their arms around them in a time of need, and that was a two thumbs up for me coming in.

Speaker 2: 12:45

I never would have gotten that line of sight through an interview, but I'm hearing organic, real-life stories of, hey, this happened to me and without a doubt, I never questioned whether my job was in jeopardy. The company was there for me, my manager was there for me, and so you hear those reoccurring themes and it's like, okay, that's special. You think about what makes your organization a great place to work and a great place to be from. Those are some of the nuances that not every organization can achieve.

Speaker 1: 13:13

Well, John, you're nailing so many things on the head. Nascar is super fortunate to have you, and it sounds like you're super fortunate to have them as well. It sounds like a really good marriage. Normally, I like to wrap these up just talking a little bit about talent. When you're interviewing people, what are the talent attributes that either you respond to really well or you're specifically trying to uncover in a candidate?

Speaker 2: 13:43

For me, my philosophy in hiring is hire the attitude, train the skill.

Speaker 2: 13:48

And I know that that probably applies more to junior entry, mid-level careers. But attitude is one of the most important things. We can teach you. We can coach you, but if you don't come to the table with just sort of that positive mindset, optimistic outlook, can-do spirit, that's hard to try to instill into someone. And I think even when you get to the higher levels, where they have probably mastered the skill set, like you know, they can do the job. But it's the attitude, because then you think about what happens after you know a deadline that took us a long time, or an audit, like how do we click in those moments? Is this someone I wanna spend time with, because we at this point we know we can generally do the work, but are they people that you wanna be around? And so, again, I think the root there is attitude. So how are the attitude trained to skill?

Speaker 1: 14:38

Do you find this is a personal thorn for me is we say that a lot of times, and then often what we'll see, though, in a job rec is tons of specific. You must have exactly this kind of stuff, and it's very hard skill, very experience based. That's less about aptitude and attitude. And then again, I want my tax accountant to freaking know the tax laws and to keep me in compliance, but you're kind of this skills based sort of approach that isn't necessarily related to a college degree, or you've got 14 years of exact experience during this exact thing. How do you navigate kind of the compromise if that's even the right word for this attitude and aptitude versus no, I kind of need you. You've done a lot of this and that's actually what we're hiring for.

Speaker 2: 15:33

I definitely think skills based hiring is important today. I don't think that you must or need to have a college degree for all roles. I think I would tell a lot of candidates make sure you know how to articulate that story, though, because if you know that there's a gap between what they put on that technical list of minimal requirements, make sure that you intentionally speak to how your skill set still meets the needs and demands of that open position.

Speaker 2: 15:58

And I would tell those that are in the hiring seat to make sure that they keep an open eye and stay curious, because what you see before I see your resume through any of that is the attitude. What is their energy, what is their? What vibe are they bringing to the space? And I think that is what you initially almost get attracted to and then the other stuff kind of is in the wash. But figuring out, how can you tell your story?

Speaker 2: 16:24

There's data that says that men will apply for a job and not need half the qualifications, and women will overanalyze it and maybe not apply. I'm a firm believer never close the door on yourself. I want you to apply for that. Make sure it makes sense. I mean, don't apply to be a general manager and you're right out of high school, but make sure it makes sense. But don't second guess yourself, because as an organization, I'm giving you what we need. But there's always going to be some concessions in that, because we may say, hey, this person has all of this. Just like in life, we have strength and we have opportunities and we have weaknesses. But if they give us 75% and we just need to coach up the other 25%, let's take a shot here.

Speaker 1: 17:06

Now, I appreciate you saying that. And then we try and teach our clients, our members, that hey, these are almost always unicorn job descriptions and if they're asking for the moon, they know they're very likely not going to get the moon. You made the point at the beginning when we were talking about transferable skills. But it's incumbent upon the candidate to really know the job description and the requirements and to create the narrative that how their background, their skills, soft and hard, align with more than enough of that job. And, by the way, I really like what you guys do and all those sorts of things and you made another point just at the last minute was basically, people hire people.

Speaker 1: 17:53

We hired people we like, mostly right, and do I want to be with when the going gets tough. Right, we're under the gun, it's just somebody I want to hang out with or not, and so, bringing that positive energy, but not being afraid I love your expression not closing your own yourself, that's a good one. But we find and it's an interesting statistic, I think it's minus 60% women's 85% of like. No, I need to at least meet this much of it. And women definitely overanalyze and disqualify themselves for things that they would have a very good shot at getting hired, for if they could just get to the right person and get a shot, yes, so I appreciate that. Last, last question Furman. What's Furman's nickname again?

Speaker 2: 18:47

What's your Paladins? Go Dins. What's a paladin? Paladin is a knight on a horse.

Speaker 1: 18:53

Cool, got it Okay. So I definitely learned something new today for my crossword puzzle stuff. What advice coming out of Furman you talked about? You did not intend to go into HR HR kind of found you, but what advice would you give John now, with the benefit of hindsight? Career advice, or I like what you said success advice, yes.

Speaker 2: 19:14

I would say flow to where the opportunities are and close mouths, don't get fed. So the flow to where the opportunities are. Life isn't going to be scripted, so flow, but close mouths, don't get fed. Don't forget that you should advocate for yourself and the things that you want in life. Make sure you kind of speak it into existence. Let's manifest it Like if you want to do something, make sure the people around you know, don't expect them to be mind-readers.

Speaker 1: 19:38

Close mouths don't get fed. It's really interesting. We were I did a webinar yesterday for a few dozen people who are job seekers and they were like, hey, I'm getting a lot of interviews by marketing offers. Our experience is that people don't always do a great job of advocating for themselves, even in an interview, and the way that they tell the story they sort of minimize their contribution in it and sometimes that's, you know, under the headline of why. I don't want to brag, or you know that feels obnoxious, but you owe it to yourself and you, honestly, you owe it to the interviewer to give them enough information to help them understand what your real contribution was Like. Don't be embarrassed about that, but it's just a manifestation of that was a closed mouth and then therefore, I don't know enough to make a confident decision. I'm going to end up offering the opportunity potentially to somebody who just told their story better than you did.

Speaker 2: 20:39

My wife was reading a book recently. I can't remember the title, but it talks about braggulogs and it's sort of a constant helping people that aren't always comfortable with promoting themselves or doing things. So she's like it's a braggulog. Interview is a large and long braggulog. You should be trying to convey how you can contribute, what you have done, what your successes have been, and I always like to tell people sometimes that's not natural for everyone, but there's mis-moments, even when you're not interviewing, that you can be doing that.

Speaker 2: 21:10

So I was at a session once and I learned this tool of the trade and it says you know, you get into these moments where there's small talk and people say, well, how are you, and you just say, well, I'm fine, you just kind of leave it there. You should start responding with I'm excited to share. So if your CEO walks in and they're small, he's like, hey, john, how are you, I'm fine. No, I should say I'm excited to share that we just completed our engagement survey and we achieved XYZ percentage and XYZ engagement and this was my contribution. Or I'm proud to share that my daughter just graduated from college. Like that's a moment for a quick line of sight to how you contribute, what's happening to you that you would normally just say, oh, I'm fine. Thank you for asking.

Speaker 1: 21:56

Oh, braggalock, braggalock, that is a two month.

Speaker 2: 22:01

I can't take that, for I need to find the author of the book, but resonated with me. So when you have those moments, say I'm excited to share, I'm proud to share. And tell them something that you've been doing.

Speaker 1: 22:13

I'm proud to share that we had John Ferguson, the CHRO of NASCAR, on with us today. John, you talked about bringing energy right, and what's the vibe that you bring into a room? You bring positivity, enthusiasm, authenticity. So I've really, really enjoyed getting to know you. I love your message and it's just been a real pleasure to have you today.

Speaker 2: 22:35

Hey Bob, I appreciate you for the space and the time and the opportunity. I'm so glad we got a chance to connect at the SHIRM annual conference and I look forward to partnering with you down the road. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 22:45

We're going to do it. So thank you everybody for taking a few minutes to listen. John Ferguson is great. Hope you enjoyed this episode and we will have another exciting guest coming up for you next week. But in the meantime, john, thank you so much and enjoy your lovely family.

Speaker 2: 22:59

All right, thank you, bob, take care.

Speaker 1: 23:00

Thanks so much for my.