Ever wondered how company culture can shape the success of your business? What if the secret to fostering a thriving work environment has been within you all along? This episode is a deep dive into the world of Scott McGohan, author of 'Culture is an Inside Job' and co-chairman of regional insurance broker, McGohan Brabender. Scott takes us on a journey through his life and shares a transformative conversation with a former employee that shifted his understanding of company culture.
We unravel the concept of a destructive hero, and the need for leaders to be aware of the dynamics within their organizations. We also explore Scott's personal journey towards understanding his identity, embracing diversity, and realizing the importance of self-love and core truths. From navigating work-life balance, to challenging the concept of ignorance and arrogance in the workplace, Scott's story offers valuable insights for leaders striving to build an inclusive and thriving company culture.
But the conversation doesn't end there. In our discussion, we delve into the four C’s of culture - character, chemistry, and competency, and how these elements are interconnected. Scott highlights the role of vulnerability and connection in leadership, and the power of active listening in fostering trust within teams. We wrap up by exploring the wisdom Scott has gleaned from his experiences, emphasizing the importance of being vulnerable, defining core values, and learning from the not-so-pretty parts of our journey. Tune in for a discourse filled with insightful anecdotes, valuable lessons, and practical advice on building a thriving company culture.
Ever wondered how company culture can shape the success of your business? What if the secret to fostering a thriving work environment has been within you all along? This episode is a deep dive into the world of Scott McGohan, author of 'Culture is an Inside Job' and co-chairman of regional insurance broker, McGohan Brabender. Scott takes us on a journey through his life and shares a transformative conversation with a former employee that shifted his understanding of company culture.
We unravel the concept of a destructive hero, and the need for leaders to be aware of the dynamics within their organizations. We also explore Scott's personal journey towards understanding his identity, embracing diversity, and realizing the importance of self-love and core truths. From navigating work-life balance, to challenging the concept of ignorance and arrogance in the workplace, Scott's story offers valuable insights for leaders striving to build an inclusive and thriving company culture.
But the conversation doesn't end there. In our discussion, we delve into the four C’s of culture - character, chemistry, and competency, and how these elements are interconnected. Scott highlights the role of vulnerability and connection in leadership, and the power of active listening in fostering trust within teams. We wrap up by exploring the wisdom Scott has gleaned from his experiences, emphasizing the importance of being vulnerable, defining core values, and learning from the not-so-pretty parts of our journey. Tune in for a discourse filled with insightful anecdotes, valuable lessons, and practical advice on building a thriving company culture.
I know you're gonna find it. You've got to keep on at it. Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. Today's episode is brought to you by some new free resources that we have on careerclub. If you go under the section making your own weather, you'll find some great resources on networking, answering tricky interview questions and the three things that might be holding you back in your job search. So please make sure you check those things out. Thank you for that again. Careerclub Today. I'm really excited about our guest. He's written a book that we're gonna get into in pretty much detail. It covers so much amazing territory on building a great company culture, but how a great company culture really starts with you. It starts with the individual. So with that I want to introduce our guest. It is Scott McGowan. Scott is co-chairman of a large regional insurance broker here in Ohio called McGowan Brabender and he's been there for 30 years and, as I said, he's written a wonderful book called Culture is an Inside Job. And with that, Scott welcome.
Speaker 2:Hey, thanks for having me, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Now. It's great to have you. Thank you so much for taking some time out of your day. Right before we went on, we were talking about how pretty it is out today, so thank you for being inside for a few minutes.
Speaker 2:Well, heck, yes, yeah, glad to be, here.
Speaker 1:No, I've really enjoyed your book. Thank you for forgetting me a copy. I'm very appreciative of joining brands that are getting us introduced as part of the local SHIRM community here in the Greater Cincinnati area, and we did not know each other before We've had the opportunity to meet. Now I feel like I know you really well, having read your book, because it's very autobiographical, which is cool. But why don't we do what we usually start with doing just a few icebreaker questions so listeners and viewers can get to know you? So very easy. First question when were you born and raised?
Speaker 2:I was born in Bowling Green, ohio, so Wood County Hospital. My dad was a sophomore in college. Wow, my mom was like almost coming right out of high school, and this back in the day when they didn't have ultrasound. So I have an identical twin brother. He came out, the doctor said hey, you have a baby boy. And five minutes later he said I've got some news. You've got too.
Speaker 1:Well, if they save the best for last, that's cool. So that's kind of your family that you grew up in. What about your nuclear family now?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've got a wife of 35 years. Her name's Lori. She's my best friend. I've got a 34 year old daughter named Courtney. She's married to a guy named Jack two grandkids, jackson and Ellison. People all the time. We should have had them little rascals first. This planet would be an amazing place to live.
Speaker 1:That is so true.
Speaker 2:And then a 31 year old son who's married to a beautiful girl named Megan, and he is a filmmaker so awesome.
Speaker 1:So are they kind of in the general area, or are they all over the place?
Speaker 2:They're probably within five miles of our house.
Speaker 1:What a blessing. That is awesome, very cool. And then you mentioned Bowling Green. Where'd you go to college?
Speaker 2:I went to Bowling Green. I went to Bowling Green for a semester and got a 0.00. So it's actually pretty easy to do you just don't show up. And then I left Bowling Green and worked in a jewelry store, ended up selling loose diamonds. And then I called my dad probably about two years into that. He said well, if you want to come back to work for me, you've got to go back to school. So went to Miami, got a tiny academic scholarship, which is it's amazing what you do with your own money versus your mom and dad's money. And then I've been here ever since.
Speaker 1:No, that's awesome, Very good. And then so you kind of just did it here a little bit. So you've been at the firm your entire career after school, and how long has that been?
Speaker 2:35 years this month. 35 years Awesome.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and have you been running the firm the entire time?
Speaker 2:No, I started off as like 10 Brabenders assistant, you know, carrying this briefcase, doing whatever it took, and when I started we had six people, I think between both companies now and nine offices. We might have close to 500. Yeah, they went into sales for a large part of my career and then you know probably what 13, 14 years ago was asked to be the CEO, so very good.
Speaker 1:Well, that's an exciting story. We're going to dig into that a lot more. Last question, and we'll get into it is, what do we? Find you doing when you're not at work, in building a company or writing awesome books?
Speaker 2:Gosh. I mean I like to play golf but I'm not, like, married to it. I'm actually more of an introvert than an extrovert than most people think. So be by myself. I kind of like, you know, being with Lori hanging out doing a whole lot of nothing, I kind of enjoy it.
Speaker 1:Awesome, awesome. Now. Now a little bit of a fore warning. This and three exact right word. But you talk a little bit about dream vacations. Where's your dream vacation destination? Golly, great question.
Speaker 2:I would say one of my most favorite parts of the country is, like Monterey, california, the weather's perfect. Yeah, pebble Beach. I took my wife out there and did not take my golf clubs for about a week and we just kind of enjoyed the weather and the scenery.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a very special place.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:Super cool. All right, let's jump into it. So we said that you've written this great book. When did the book come out?
Speaker 2:Came out in. What is that July of?
Speaker 1:this year. Okay, so it's been just a few months and again it's called Culture is an Inside Job. Yep, do you want to? Just kind of we're going to get into more things so you don't have to say everything all at once, but just sort of what was the if it is for writing the book and what's the major overarching theme of the book?
Speaker 2:I was having lunch with a really good friend of mine, mike Matill, his dad. His father unfortunately just passed away about four weeks ago. He was the founder of the IIMS company, oh wow. And Mike and I were having breakfast and coffee and one thing led to another and he said you should write a book. And I'm like I don't. I really I don't know how to sit in a chair for 20 minutes.
Speaker 2:I don't know how that would work, and you know, and the one story led to another and and there's a large part of me that I see a lot of people that are leading organizations or leading teams and they're afraid to share where they've made mistakes. And there's a lot of people in our profession that maybe and I'm not picking on academia, but one of the things in regards to running a business versus teaching about a business, when you've done it it's different. You understand the mechanics of what you should do, what you can do, what you have to do, and I really wanted to write a book, not about all the things I'm proud of, because there's a lot of things I'm proud of, but the things that, quite frankly, I'm not proud of and the lessons that I've learned about myself, about this world, about humanity, about this business, and I had a blast writing it.
Speaker 1:So what's kind of talking about the things that we're not proud of? Can you describe Victoria and the destructive hero for folks? Because I think that's a good place to get the boat in the water.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, about 25 years ago we had a building right down the street from here and she came in my office. She said you have values painted on the wall. You don't exhibit one of them. I have my own set of values and you torque them every day. Today's my last day. I mean, that's just a mic drop, wow, sadly.
Speaker 2:I looked at my door to see how wide it was open, like, in other words, who else heard that? I talked, I was in sales and I was a chameleon. So I had a mask for the golf course, a mask for my job, a mask at home. I was just. Unfortunately, I was just a lost soul. I asked her I'm like hey, is there any chance we can talk about this tomorrow? She said I'll think about it, I'll call you, I'll let you know. And I went home.
Speaker 2:I talked to my wife and I was more worried about what people would think about me with her leaving, physically, her leaving, which is twisted, but it's honest. And I asked my wife I'm like this is what she said. My wife said well, she's right. She's like well, why haven't you ever told me that she's well? I have you just never apparently willing to listen to Victoria, but you're not willing to listen to me.
Speaker 2:And then I realized my kids and they were a lot younger back then but they have no motive to tell you the truth because if they do they might lose car keys or cell phones or stuff. So we went back the next day and said hey, you know, I like I care about you and if I hired a coach, would you give me a chance, a shot? And we agreed that I would. And then we agreed that we would ask each other three questions every day Am I okay, are you okay, are we okay? And it was really the beginning of like a beautiful evolution, of. I get to start all over, I get to rethink who I am, I get to rethink my relationships. And then, you know, 25 years later, victoria Rieger retired last year and I got to wheel her out to her front seat of her car and one of our victory cards in our building. So you know, she had the courage to tell me the truth and then she had the grace and the patience to help me along the way.
Speaker 1:So what is this notion if I'm saying it right of a destructive hero?
Speaker 2:Yeah, many organizations have them, if not most, but normally it is someone that is a high performer, so they're normally, they're normally born or birthed in sales. So or they're in, they manage big accounts, or they can be a founder's kid or related to a founder or an owner and for some strange reason, the rules are different for them and as leaders in an organization, what's important to say is what we allow in our organizations. We encourage, and it's costly, and it's costing the organization a lot more than you think it is. There's a lot of people that are sick and tired of walking watching destructive heroes. You know be successful inside the organization because they're tearing the organization apart. Now they're redeemable and they're restorable. You know I'm an example of that, but many aren't.
Speaker 2:And ignoring it is really no solution at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, you remind me of where some companies are talking about a no jerks policy, like I don't care if you're the Michael Jordan of our industry, you know. If you're going to just bring people down, the cost of having you around isn't worth the perceived benefit of having you around.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, yeah, and there's a lot of companies that have those people there and owners and leaders are scared to death and you know, hopefully they've got the courage to address it.
Speaker 1:So I want to get back, because I don't want to lose people in the thesis here, though, of company culture and how it starts with the leaders getting themselves right first before they expect that of the organization. Can you expound on that a little bit and why you believe that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I used to teach it's called the president's course out at Aileron, which Clay Matill founded Aileron to really help perpetuate private enterprise. And then I was blessed to be able to my coach and teach around organizational culture. And you know there's a lot of people out there they want to culture like Google or you know, zappos. I want ping pong tables and ball chairs. That's all good, but it's not for the most part. It's not about ping pong tables and ball chairs, it's about authenticity inside your organization. And who are you on the inside? Because if you don't know that who you are, that's going to leak on the outside and you think you're the only one that's hiding it. Sadly, you're probably the only one that doesn't know, because everybody else doesn't know. So how do you transfer yourself? Transfer yourself for, maybe, who I want to be, who I'm called to be, and then how does that live inside the organization? In a beautiful, compelling way, in an honest way, in an authentic way. It takes a lot of hard work, but man is it worth it.
Speaker 1:So people who listen to this podcast or know me personally know that I'm a big fan of Dr Andy Garrett in Southern California and he has a company called True North, and it's about knowing your values, who you really really are, not a file that you've got over here. Let me go tell you my I've got my values over here somewhere. Let me go find them for you real quick, because what he talks about is pursuing. Even this term of this is related, I think, is work-life balance, because it implies that they're in conflict, and so I'm just trying to minimize the conflict of who I am and who I need.
Speaker 1:You talked about being a chameleon, who I need to be in the moment. Well, all that takes a lot of energy to do that and it's exhausting trying to be as many people as you need to be during the course of the day to keep people happy, and what you, a lot of people find out is they go home, they're exhausted from doing that all day, and then their family gets the least of what they have to offer, maybe leftovers, and so they're like how am I a hero at work and I stink at home? Right, or I'm so dedicated to my family, but what my work needs me to be. I can't be so I'm failing at work. And yet when they work together and there's an integration Andy would talk about being in your flow state Does that resonate with you and kind of the two sides of Scott or the two chapters in Scott?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, there was a time, you know, like the good book teaches us to love our neighbors as ourselves, or the golden rule to do on others, as you know, as we would do on ourselves. And the problem with that is the fact that if we don't love ourselves, humanity doesn't have a shot. And I think for me, I this real warp sense of self. I thought self worth, equal performance. The faster I ran, sure Plus, your opinion of me meant more than my own opinion of myself, and that's a pretty lonely place to live. And then it for me, for example, is I just thought I'd film this big hole in my soul with new cars, country clubs, boats, clothes, stuff. That was pretty temporary, and then even my coaches.
Speaker 2:We define, like you know, my four or five core truths, like why I get up every day. Number one my faith is my foundation. I will not waver. I tell people I'm on the recruitment committee, not the membership committee. No faith is faith in something. Number two is my wife is my best friend and we will never part. Number three real important I am my own worst enemy and I know it. Number four is I believe all people, all human beings, outside of deep mental health issues are lovable and can be loving, but society or things have hardened them and it's our job to be attractive and maybe give them light. And number five is going to change because I'm a retiree from a government break-bender. But number five was I'll do everything in my power to protect the culture of the organization, so that one's up for debate and that one's up for a shift.
Speaker 1:But see, that's the point is, you know what your five things are and whether I agree with those, like those like you more, like you less. It is what it is. We're going to get into diversity and inclusion in a minute, but we do a separate podcast with Johnny Taylor, who's the CEO of SHERM, the huge resource organization, and one of the things that we were talking about recently is that diversity is one thing and diversity is good. Having different representations makes us all richer. It's like a quilt. It's got more colors, more things. It's more beautiful than a monochromatic blanket or quilt or whatever. But unless that diversity is embraced, then you don't really have inclusion. You've got bingo boxes checked, but you don't necessarily have inclusion. One of the ways that inclusion doesn't happen is because I'm threatened by you. You think differently than I do, you believe differently than I do, and I find that threatening, unless, to your point, you're very grounded In who you are, and then not in an unkind way, but I don't care, it doesn't matter. Does that resonate with your experience?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, what a beautiful way to say that too, I've always heard I had a friend of mine ask me to pray this, and I didn't understand. He said I don't know, I'm not asking you to understand it, just pray it. And he just said God, remove everything I know about myself, you and this world and open my heart to a new experience about you, about me and this world. And I think it was Mark Twain that said ignorance is not the absence of information, it's the perception you have it.
Speaker 1:I think that's a combination of ignorance and arrogance.
Speaker 2:And I think, like today, unfortunately that's the society we live in today.
Speaker 1:We love sound bites.
Speaker 2:We anchor on sound bites. I just don't tolerate ignorance. I just don't. It's that a sense of belonging inside of an organization is such an important part of the organization. I'm 58, blonde hair, blue eyes, white male. I don't know what it's like to be a woman. I don't know what it's like to be a different race. I don't know what it's like to be social, economic issues. I don't know what that looks like in regards to transportation or income or all those things, but by golly, I'm willing to accept it and I'm willing to try to understand it and I'm willing to maybe even like think about how do we do things differently around it.
Speaker 1:So you shared the anecdote about the young lady that she went to the Howard University orientation meeting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was with Dave Taylor. He's a superintendent of DECA here in Dayton and she had an orientation at Howard University. Her name was Jasmine and we went there. In fact I sat in this room with probably 300 black students, black moms and dads and I think I was the only Caucasian guy there. Dave Taylor, great guy, looks at me. He nudges me in the shoulder and says, hey, how's it feel? I don't know, I kind of feel out of place. He goes have something every day he's got and I'm like jackpot, I get it. I understand. And then what was really cool about that whole weekend or that week that we spent with Jasmine is she invited me to her high school graduation. She called her mom and dad. She said I met this guy on this trip two days, but I'd really like to invite him for my graduation and that was a real treat. So I got to go to her DECA graduation a couple weeks after that. It was cool.
Speaker 1:That's very cool, but I mean I really like that because you talk about being empathetic. Now I get it At least for a day. For this moment I now have more of an understanding than I had before. So good on you for even putting yourself in a situation like that that you could. Hey, not my lane, I'm busy that day, sorry, but you did it, which I think is wonderful. Back to, at a high level, our topic on culture Can you talk about?
Speaker 1:maybe the difference in the interplay culture, character, values, reputation Because I think sometimes we get these things mixed up. Yeah.
Speaker 2:I like to refer to them as like the four C's. So we have the culture inside the organization, then we have the chemistry that's how we're going to behave together, the character, how we're going to treat each other, and then the competency from the neck up, like are we learning, are we growing? And they're all intertwined and they're not independent. And I'm not picking on people, but I think adults are more like children than maybe we think they are. I think most people do what they see, not what they hear. So as a leader, you better walk around and see what your people are doing, because that's what the rest of the workforce is doing.
Speaker 2:And when new hires come into a building, there's two things they're looking for. It's not in our handbooks, it's not in our orientation. Number one is how do I get in trouble around here? How does that happen here? And the other two is how do I get rewarded? And if that's not crystal clear, then your culture is wonky. It better be very, very clear to people how do I get in trouble? How do I get rewarded?
Speaker 1:Can you define because you did explain this a little bit and it's not a test, so I'll help you if you need help, Kind of the difference between character and reputation?
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh, I know it's in the book and I know I wrote about it.
Speaker 1:Well, let me help you. Like I said, this isn't a test. It's very interesting because reputation is what other people think. You are Right. We can have billboards and we can proclaim, we can have all kinds of marketing messages to create an impression in other people's minds who don't know us well, what we're like. Character is really who we are, and character the way it's defined by our values and what's really interesting. You made this point, so I want to give proper credit. But you don't really know someone's character until it's called into question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when the pressure hits them, that's normally when I always say you'll leak. You'll begin to leak your morality, your virtues begin to get kind of wonky. I remember one time we had a problem here in someone's well, this is expensive. I'm like well, why does cost? Why does cost even have to come into play when we're talking about this decision. What's the right decision? And then we can talk about how much it's going to cost us, because it costs us to be irrelevant. Does that make sense? Well it does.
Speaker 1:It's interesting because I actually, you know, career club, we work with people who are in a job transition and are, you know, actively seeking their next role. And you know, oftentimes, of course, salary or compensation comes up and I'm like, not that you don't want to have that conversation, but you want to sequence it correctly. Show them your value first and how you can contribute and why you know you're aligned with their values, your cultural. Add to your point about competency, how you can deliver, that you're a good fit, chemistry wise. You mix well with others. That's collaboration. Once all those pieces are in place, I promise you they can start to talk themselves into what would it cost to get this lady on board here? Right, but if we start off, hey, you're going to have to pay me. You know, have a much like.
Speaker 2:I don't know what you are yet.
Speaker 1:Like why are we arguing about price? Because I don't know what your value is.
Speaker 2:yet oh, 100% Yep.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So just one more point on character. It so resonates with me. A lot of people will claim, like integrity, and integrity is one of those things. Well, who's going to say? Well, actually, that's not what. I actually don't subscribe to integrity. I think that's not a good thing. Nobody's going to say that. And to your point, the only time that you can really demonstrate integrity is when it's called into question, right? So somebody's asking you to lie about the financials or tell a client it does this because I need for her to believe that it does this, even though we both know it won't really work that way. I mean, that's integrity. Can you think, because you're in sales and I'm a salesperson by background too can you think of the time when, if I can phrase it this way, new Scott acted in a different way on the integrity axis than maybe old Scott would have acted?
Speaker 2:Gosh, that's a good question. I think when the old Scott, integrity wasn't. Integrity was all ego. So if it made me look bad, I'm going to say and do whatever I can to make myself look good. Because I'm Teflon, I'm the Superman. I would say situations that come at me today because of I believe and we're all growing my character, what I believe in today I have to do the right thing for Scott, regardless of what the other person thinks, because last time I checked, I'm the person that has to lay my own head on the pillow. I'm the person that could create my own resentment and mistakes off into the future and I live my whole life like that. I can't live like that. I just can't. It'll just it'll wear you out. It's a slow spiritual death and I've been on that operating table and I don't want to go back on it again.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, Well, as someone who has messed it up really well before, I understand In culture, because the topic here is company culture you identified that there's sort of four employee types, with victims, naysayers, bystanders and believers. Could you unpack that for a minute for listeners?
Speaker 2:Yeah, when the Affordable Care Act happened in 2010, and it was really like my second year as CEO it was like, well, now what are we going to do? Government's coming after our business. Fortunately, we had this mindset is hey, if the government gets involved, it's going to get really complicated, which means our customers are going to need us more than us. So let's not worry about our revenue or what's going to happen to our income. Let's just worry about where our customers are going to need us and how can we help them. That was a beautiful way to look at this problem, but it also meant that there were a lot of things that we were doing before we could do in the future. They weren't added value, people weren't going to pay us to do them. It just felt good. But we had to weigh those things out and as we began to do that, we began to hear all this chirping around the building. So we put together a brochure and we told people we're on a quest for the naysayers, the bystanders and the victims. This is exactly what they say, this is what they look like and this is what they do Now. It doesn't mean if you're one of those, you're a bad person. It just means the future at McGowan-Rabiner is not going to work for you, it's not going to work for our company, it's not going to work for our people and it will help you look outside, because we can only afford people that believe in the future of this organization.
Speaker 2:And it was abrasive and it was hard and we had a lot of people, even owners, that say stop asking me. I was like well, which one are you? I was like what do you mean? I'm like well, if you believe in the model, you'd stop talking to me about it. We probably had eight or nine people leave, but what was really cool, it serves probably three times as many victims, bystanders and naysayers that began to embrace the new vision.
Speaker 2:So we turned them, which is even more powerful, because when you turn one of those folks back into the organization, engage them, brace them and other people, it's, as you know, just wait, this is a fad or a go-way. They're like no, no, no, no, this is what we're doing. People are like well, wait a minute, you were one of those like no, no, no, no, we're all on board Now. We had a situation where we really didn't have any choices, like we had to push it that fast and that hard. But you know, as they say, never take advantage of or don't take advantage of like chaos inside your organization. Lean into it. There's learning.
Speaker 1:Never waste a good crisis.
Speaker 2:Correct. That's exactly what I was talking about.
Speaker 1:I want to pick up on your point, Scott, and for listeners, you're making a really important point, and particularly for leaders.
Speaker 1:I remember taking a new job several years ago and there was this big new product launch strategy. It was all wrapped around this new product thing that we were taking to market. I was brand new You're talking about, you know, where are the two things that somebody wants to know? And so one of the guys that was on my new team was having all kinds of objections during this presentation about this new product that was going to market and we had spent no time together, and then afterwards he was feeling kind of sheepish because he came up to me and said hey, mr Goodwin, I'm really sorry, I don't want you to think, start to develop a bad opinion of me. I'm like David, not a problem, because there's sort of two kinds of things here.
Speaker 1:One is a skeptic and one is a cynic. And there's a difference. A skeptic doesn't want to believe. A skeptic doesn't believe yet but is open to believing. You're a skeptic and I am all about that, because once you believe, you're going to be 10 times more effective than somebody who's just taking all this at face value. So I embrace your skepticism and I'm thankful for you not being a cynic, because a cynic isn't going to work. It's like a fever broke on him.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fine. I mean, I'm a polyanna. I mean, if there's a unicorn, I'm definitely that person, right, and I need those people around me too. Otherwise I get uncentered and that's not healthy.
Speaker 1:That's really really good. I like that In the book you talk about because, again, this all gets down to individuals. The pictures are not these giant monolithic things. They're actually this is an apt word picture, but it's more like a structure of building that's got having many bricks. There are, as there are, people. Each one of those bricks matters, and so you're very into the individual. I think you've learned a lot of this from your father. Yeah, but talking about there was two really important words, like the two most important words I mean, I don't know this word at the end Can you share with people. You're not just the words but kind of the underlying. You know principles behind why these are the most important words.
Speaker 2:Which words?
Speaker 1:Well, starting with someone's name. Oh yeah, and then health.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think you know when we unfortunately, I think, with our name and I'm speaking for myself, but I don't think I'm alone in this too but for the most part, for the most part, we were all wounded by somebody, maybe somebody that called us a name, someone that picked on us, someone that bullied us, somebody that did something to us that harmed us. That could be physically and most likely it's most likely emotional, and our names matter. And the fact of the matter is I know I've probably wounded, unfortunately emotionally, someone in my past. I know I have the capacity to do it. I probably didn't mean to, but I probably did. I remember when we were having our daughter and I told my wife hey, I'm going to name our daughter I think it was Tess and she's like no way. I'm like why didn't she? She was like well, that girl picked on me at school. I'm like you never told me that. I'm like, wow, all of a sudden, like Tess is a bad name, because am I making sense? Yeah, definitely it makes sense, and so our job is, hopefully, as human beings, is to make sure that we don't wound people as we evolve, when we grow. And then the name Scott it means something to me that I can say my name's Scott.
Speaker 2:I've always said that the mirror is a wonderful place to find a friend. If you can find a friend with yourself, you can begin to be kind to yourself, which allows you to be kind to others. You can encourage yourself. It allows you to be able to encourage other people and then, if you can love yourself, you have the capacity to go love other people. And so, even inside the walls of MP, we have name plaques outside and I'm pretty intentional about someone walks up and their name's Jennifer, and someone says, hey, jen, that's like her name's Jennifer, I know, but I call her Jenna. That's not her name. And so what do you mean? I could go ask her. The first thing you should say is if I meet someone like Dave or David you prefer Dave or David? I say I don't care. Actually, you know what I do. What do you prefer?
Speaker 1:I tell people the questions are going to get harder.
Speaker 2:And you know why? Because it's amazing, it's respectful, it's absolutely respectful, and names they matter. You will turn around anywhere in an airport or a store if someone yells Bob, you will turn around, and you will turn around if anyone yells help. Those are the two words on this planet that will get people's attention, and I think what we want in our lives is that when someone shouts her name, we don't want people like, oh, that guy's in the room, I don't want that guy. So does that make sense, bob?
Speaker 1:It does. I want to tie, though, a couple of ideas together that I know are important to you. What is picking up and piggybacking on the word help and asking for help? Because asking for help takes a level of humility and it takes a level, in some cases, of vulnerability, like I can't do the opposite of the hero. The hero, in this case, needs help. Well, I'm supposed to be the man Like, I'm the big producer here and now suddenly I need help. Can you talk about vulnerability and how that is actually of strength?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had an employee one time say tell me, you're way too vulnerable, it makes you look weak. And then I told them that's actually the weakest thing I've ever heard. I don't understand. And I said I didn't think you would, and then it's like I'll explain it to me and I was like maybe tomorrow. And in other words, you made a mess and I'm just going to maybe have you sit in that for a while. You're going to think about that Because, as leaders, what we have to understand in our business.
Speaker 2:Everybody walks in our companies and they're dealing with miscarriage, they're dealing with divorce, they're dealing with financial fears, they're dealing with anxiety, depression, kids getting bullied at school. They're dealing with life on life's terms. And most people do not know how to live life on life's terms and they would look at someone like Bob or maybe even someone like Scott, watching maybe what kind of car they drove in and say, well, that guy's got it all figured out. I know Bob doesn't and I know Scott doesn't, and when I'm available I can share people. I always say I don't use my past to torture myself. I use it to be available and teachable to other people. I say life's a wonderful teacher and she rarely gets an apple on her desk. Well, as leaders, we should hand out some apples. We should share with people where we made mistakes, and it lets other people know they're not alone and they've got a chance to maybe think about their life differently. And it's employers that think that employees leave that stuff at home are sadly mistaken.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which then starts to flip into what you write about with listening and empathy. And so when we're vulnerable, it oftentimes gives people permission to talk it like, oh, we can talk about this. Like I thought I could only talk to you about policies and renewals and expense ratios, and you're like, no, no, no, it's all good. Like I have a real life too, and I've actually made that mistake, worse than you did, and let me tell you about it. And so it allows people to open up. But that also implies active listening and not just preaching to people. And what do they say? Two ears, one mouth. Use them in that order oh, yeah.
Speaker 1:How have you seen that positively affect people at your firm?
Speaker 2:I think for a lot of leaders too, whether and you could do this at night. But if you walk around your building, you can look in everyone's workspaces and identify what people really care about. You can find out their kids play soccer. You can find out they love the Ravens or the Bengals there's so much in their environment. You can find out their faith at their desk.
Speaker 2:Potentially there's a lot of things around their work environment and I think when we embrace that and we understand people, our ability to connect with them one of the things too, as a leader, is, I do think that our job is not to be in their roles, it's to be in a relationship with them. Like I'll walk back to the kitchen and get a cup of coffee. Someone will be back there talking to me oh, I'm sorry. Sorry for what? So we're talking about this weekend. I hope you're talking about this weekend here. I hope you're not talking about work here. I mean, we can do work at our desk, but this is a time for relationship. Let's bond, let's grow, let's have fun, let's kick it up and as leaders, sometimes when our doors are closed and we're walking around the building like we're the most important person in the building, or so fast that we're untouchable and we just lose touch of people and just walk around, hang out, get to know people.
Speaker 1:You told a great story in the book about Liz, where you were leading a meeting and Liz came in six minutes later. However late she was, you were already in the flow of what you wanted to talk about she was all apologetic about. Do you mind finishing that story?
Speaker 2:Yeah, she came in late and other people were like ooh, and all of a sudden it was accusatory and I was like, hey folks, that's not fair, liz, what's going on? She said, well, I didn't know what to do, the bus was late and there was something happening with the bus and I can't remember the story exactly and I was like OK, so Liz, let's talk about this for a minute. What were your choices? She was like I didn't have any. I'm like, exactly, you had none. You had no choices, and it was a good example in the room in regards to what something happens.
Speaker 2:Be inquisitive and thoughtful before you start poking fingers or making accusations Because you have no idea what someone's dealing with. Now you can deal with somebody that's habitually right. You don't have to do it in front of a room full of people. You don't have to embarrass people. It really comes down to how. Would you prefer to be treated as a human being and would you like to be called out in the room for being late? I don't think anybody I know wants to be called out.
Speaker 1:Well, that's back to the golden rule, right? I think people don't want to be treated. What if we I want to be mindful of the time what if we not talked about, scott, in terms of just some of the guiding principles of cultures and inside job things that you've learned in your 30 years of business and the past few years of leading the organization?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's probably really. I think, as a business leader inside your organization is I would try to be the best storyteller I could, and inside of an organization, I think sometimes we believe that maybe this is too corny. People are going to think I'm crazy for talking this way. No, I mean, if you're leading an organization or a part of an organization and you want it to be better, don't be shy, be brave. I want it to be better. This is like aspirationally, this is where we want it to be. And because people want to be led, they want to be. I'll tell a new hire when they're first day they're hired. Hey, go lead until someone tells you not to Like what. Go lead until someone tells you not to. No one's going to tell them not to.
Speaker 2:And as a leader in an organization, here's why storytelling so important. It's because when you tell a story about someone in the organization that's doing deep, compelling, amazing work, the other people in the room that aren't in that story want to be in the next chapter. So whatever you just said, they will go duplicate and they're like hey, maybe I'm in the next chapter, maybe next month they're gonna. So every month we get our employees together in a room and we have this thing called the raving fans wall. So if you get a raving, if you get a letter from a customer unsolicited, we read it from the whole organization and we have a big wall with a sharpie. You sign your name on it and it's just hundreds of names all over this wall. And we want raving fans. And so be an amazing storyteller and don't worry about what other people think about you, just don't. Just say what you think and believe and have the courage to go do it.
Speaker 1:Yes, I love it. So this is a very typical question that we would ask Couple of questions. Someone asked when you're hiring people, looking either for new talent coming into the organization and or people that you kind of got your eye on, they've got your, they've caught your eye and like that, that's somebody that we I think it's got a real future here. What are two, three character or talent attributes that you look for?
Speaker 2:You know, I know, I know if they went to college, if it's on the resume, and I know their GPA if it's on there. So that isn't really that important. There's two things I really look at. Number one is eye contact, cause I think it's the lens of the soul. Lack of eye contact normally says something about that individual, and sometimes that's just fear. And then the body language. So if I'm eating with you and I've got Suzanne and I've got Pam, and I think Bob's hiring me, but actually it's Pam, and I'm arrogant to think that.
Speaker 2:So are you self-aware enough to understand the room? I think it's funny is when people walk in the building, the very first place I go when we leave an interview. So I'll go to Kathy at the front desk, go, hey, what do you think of Mark? She goes, who I'm like? Ooh, that's not good. Okay, right, so it's our first impressions. Person Cause if you're willing to treat the receptionist or the person in the front desk with dignity, respect and kindness, then that's available for everyone. And yeah, it's. We've hired 60 people this year 60?, 60.
Speaker 1:Holy cow, what part about the economy is not good? Scott, didn't you miss the memo?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we've hired 60 people here. We're moving to Cleveland and we're having a real. We're in East out now, so everybody's an owner. We can tell that story. We built an immersion room in the back of our building which is a story room.
Speaker 1:What's it called A what?
Speaker 2:A immersion room, so a merge. Okay, cause I've told people ever since I've like we will never have a brochure. You should be able to talk about my going for a vendor from the neck up with your heart connected. You should never have to look down at a word. And so that immersion room is really a brand, a room that kind of walks through the brand or value or culture Every new hire. I walk in there like I hope you don't think we sell insurance, cause that would be miserable existence. That's not what we do. It's fun, it's quirky, it's fun, we're having a blast.
Speaker 1:No, you're. You know we, we talk a lot with our clients about having a brand and your brand is grounded in your convictions and we've talked about this a little bit. When you know your convictions, that brings clarity, and clarity is what to say yes to and the confidence and, as you say, the courage to what to say no to doesn't mean it's bad. It's just not for me because I back to my convictions. That's not for me. When we've got that clarity, it brings confidence, not arrogance, not cockiness, but an appropriate level of confidence. And the beautiful part about confidence is it's contagious and this is sort of like your immersion room. When you believe, you make me believe, right. And when you've got an ESOP of people who are all believers and not naysayers, victims, right, or anything else, then it's like wow, that's powerful and it sounds like the culture bringing it all back home that you guys have built it in B.
Speaker 2:Well, we've had a lot of fun.
Speaker 1:Well, if people, I assume the book is on Amazon.
Speaker 2:yes, it is. It is on Amazon.
Speaker 1:So I think we're going to be able to flash up. There's a for people who are seeing this on YouTube or on LinkedIn Live. There is a QR code on the screen right now so you can just take a picture of that. But the book is called Culture Is An Inside Job by Scott McGowan, and it is a phenomenal read. It's easy to read too. You talked about being a storyteller. You tell stories all throughout the book, which just makes it very digestible but also relatable. So I really appreciate the book. Scott, I appreciate you and thank you for sharing just the wisdom that you gleaned over these past 30 years, including always not the so pretty parts.
Speaker 2:Well, thanks for having me too, and we haven't known each other very long, but I'm really blessed for the introduction and thanks for all the work that you do to help people.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, thank you and everybody. Thank you so much for taking a few minutes out of your day to learn from Scott and we hope you've enjoyed this. If you're watching this on YouTube, please subscribe, comment like that all helps. If you're listening to this on your favorite podcast platform, rate and review, we'd really appreciate that. And again, if there's anything that we can do to help you in your career, please check us out at careerclub. Scott, thanks again and I hope you enjoyed the rest of your day. Perfect, thank you. I know you're gonna find it. You've got all you need, so just keep going.