Dive into a compelling discussion with Andrea Herron, MA, PHR, SHRM-CP, Head of People at WebMD, on workplace empathy and mental health awareness. Explore the impact of acknowledging personal mental health challenges and the significance it holds for employers. Discover how empathetic leadership, stability, and transparent communication contribute to a healthier work environment. Learn to recognize warning signs in colleagues, decode virtual communication complexities, and master the art of asking about well-being.
Generational attitudes towards mental health are explored, along with accessible resources for support. Uncover strategies like the "beauty break" for stress relief, delve into radical resilience, and grasp the delicate balance between positivity and empathy. Gain insights into exceptional talent attributes and glean career advice emphasizing continuous exploration and growth. Whether a manager, employee, or advocate for mental health, this recording offers transformative insights. Like, share, and subscribe to enrich workplace well-being and empathy.
Dive into a compelling discussion with Andrea Herron, MA, PHR, SHRM-CP, Head of People at WebMD, on workplace empathy and mental health awareness. Explore the impact of acknowledging personal mental health challenges and the significance it holds for employers. Discover how empathetic leadership, stability, and transparent communication contribute to a healthier work environment. Learn to recognize warning signs in colleagues, decode virtual communication complexities, and master the art of asking about well-being.
Generational attitudes towards mental health are explored, along with accessible resources for support. Uncover strategies like the "beauty break" for stress relief, delve into radical resilience, and grasp the delicate balance between positivity and empathy. Gain insights into exceptional talent attributes and glean career advice emphasizing continuous exploration and growth. Whether a manager, employee, or advocate for mental health, this recording offers transformative insights. Like, share, and subscribe to enrich workplace well-being and empathy.
Don't, you're gonna find it. You gotta keep on at it. Hello everybody, this is Bob Goodwin. I'm the president of Career Club, and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. Thank you so much for joining us. If you are watching this on YouTube, please subscribe, comment. That would be fantastic. If you're listening to this on your favorite podcast platform, it really does help if you rate and review and, of course, subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. So thank you so much for investing a few minutes with us today.
Speaker 1:Today's episode is brought to you by Next Placement, which is our innovation in the out placement area, where we're taking a more people centric, empathetic approach to helping folks who are transitioning from one job to another. Three main points of it are mental wellness, which I'm going to talk about with our guest in a few minutes, emotional intelligence, coaching and community. So please check us out. Careerclub. Next placement and with that I'd love to welcome. Our guest today is Andrea Herron. Andrea is the head of people at WebMD. She is also the author of a book that we're going to talk quite a bit about called there's an Elephant in your Office, as well as a podcast host herself with the HR scoop. So, andrea, welcome.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I'm so excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Did I miss anything? You've got so many credentials and cool things you're doing. What did I miss?
Speaker 2:It's always funny to hear it read out loud, but I do a lot of things.
Speaker 1:No, that's fine. You're contributing in a lot of ways, is, I think, what we're really saying. So we are going to talk about mental wellness quite a bit today, but before we do that, as is our normal practice, we'd like to just get to know you a little bit. So first one's a layup, and I know we're going with this one. Where were you born and raised?
Speaker 2:I am a Kentuckian, born and raised in Kentucky and don't live there anymore, but did for most of my life.
Speaker 1:And so people who know me are regular listeners know I'm in Cincinnati but I grew up in Louisville, so we share the Kentucky born and raised part together. Where did you go to school, college?
Speaker 2:Western Kentucky University. Go, hilltoppers, hilltoppers. I was going to say.
Speaker 1:That was a bit of a test, but I got that one. And just a little bit about your family.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have a husband, two kids, and we can't forget the French Bulldog, norman.
Speaker 1:Very popular. Is that a COVID?
Speaker 2:acquisition. You know, I must admit that it was. Yeah, the kids were spending a lot of time together so we thought you know what you need? A dog, and it's been great.
Speaker 1:You need something else to take care of. So sure, yeah, that's true, the French Bulldogs seem to do really well during COVID.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't need a lot of exercise. They're pretty good indoor dogs. So for people living in apartments or that didn't have a lot of yard or space because they couldn't go outside, it was good purchase.
Speaker 1:That's fun. So do you mind painting just a brief picture of your career arcs coming out of Western Kentucky? What was your degree in, and then what's sort of the path that's led you to WebMD?
Speaker 2:Sure. So I am a psychology major, went to grad school for industrial organizational psychology and I'm finding one of those rare birds maybe that kind of always knew I wanted to get into the HR field right away. So I started at Berry Plastics at the Global Headquarters in Southern Indiana, worked there Great, you know, intro to HR and then we moved to Portland, oregon, and so got my first job here as a senior business partner with a energy consulting firm. So kind of got some good karma back from the plastic manufacturing to reducing harm. And then moved over to the Oregon Humane Society, which was a wonderful job, led that organization through quite a bit of change and growth and then I came to WebMD about six years ago.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, that's been a great run. Well, congratulations. And then, just quickly, I think you probably just going to say, bob, I already told you the answer to that question what do you like to do outside of work? What are passions or areas of interest outside of work?
Speaker 2:Well, and all my free time, which you know is limited for everyone I like to hang out with friends, go listen to live music, go for an occasional run, just kind of do whatever is social and gets me out of out of my brain and off the computer there you go, not for all those things.
Speaker 1:So I referenced during the introduction that you've written a book called there's an Elfin in your Office and do you mind sharing folks just a little bit of the backstory and what the book is about?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd love to. So way back in 2019, the before times I published this book with my sister, and the story actually started a couple of years before that. So my sister had called me in maybe 2017, freaking out because she was going to lose her job and her medications were switching and her anxiety and depression were under control. And I was like what? I had no idea that my own sister was dealing with some pretty significant mental health challenges because nobody talked about it very private, until she felt no other choice but to call me as her sister in HR to get some advice on not losing her job.
Speaker 2:So, as I helped her through that situation and was looking for resources to pass along to her, her manager, her company's HR, there was really nothing out there that I could find that was outside of a legal definition or something very clinical, and so we realized that that was a big gap that maybe we could help fill, and so we wrote this book together from the perspective of someone having a mental health condition and being in the workplace and that experience, and then from the business HR side, to really help managers and leaders navigate mental health at work. So we published that, as I mentioned, in 2019 and then 2020 happened and we learned a lot about being remote and the impact of mental health being from shared trauma and from being removed and isolated, who actually published a second edition last year, in 2022, with updated information, kind of with those things included, and it's only become more needed and necessary over the past few years, as we've all realized, I think collectively.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I was going to say your timing's flawless and that's really cool. I didn't realize that you had issued a second edition already. It's been updated. But one of the things that consistently, as we're talking with HR leaders like yourself, is that mental wellness is really coming to the foreground and that people are pretty stressed out over health issues, financial issues and might get laid off. It's just lots of things are going on. We live in very uncertain times. It feels uncertain, and so the mental wellness just seems like it's something that people are talking more about. Do you see that? Do you find that as well?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean, we're dealing with burnout, job burnout at levels we've never seen social and political issues, natural disasters. It's just kind of new territory that employers are being asked to participate in and address, and that in itself is new. And then we add to it the fact that we are getting more open and the expectations are changing about what employers should do to support overall wellness, not just physical wellness. But, as you mentioned, there's financial stress, there's mental stress, there's a lot that goes into your workforce showing up to do their job every day, and one thing I've found that I think is really important to remember is that we all have mental health. You can't win mental health. You don't get a gold star. There's no finish line. Your mental health might have its ups and downs throughout your life, but we all have it and we all need to take care of it. So it becomes an employer issue and a workplace issue because it is a human issue.
Speaker 1:And then so we talk a lot about bringing your whole self to work. Guess what People are bringing in? Always half it's like your sister, it's been pushed down. So just maybe, starting at the start as a professional, as someone who's researched the topic, what are some of the mental health issues and challenges that are more common or that you're seeing that people are bringing to work?
Speaker 2:You know it's interesting, right, because we, as you mentioned, we all come with our stuff. The old saying you never know what someone else is carrying, so be kind, or however that goes, you really don't know. And with COVID and isolation and seeing into people's homes, we got to see a little bit of their lives and what we've really noticed is that people are struggling with their coping mechanisms. So usually when we're in kind of a neutral or good place, we kind of ebb and flow with things. Some days are harder than others, of course, but generally pretty resilient.
Speaker 2:When we have these big shifts, the first thing we see is that people stop showing up as they usually do, so maybe they're shorter on email or they're not saying hello to anyone. They're showing up very unprofessional or wrinkled outfit when usually they were very put together. Maybe they mentioned they picked up drinking a lot, or they're smoking again, or they had the 25th package of the day delivered. They're gambling, I mean. So these little comments can start to paint a picture that someone is not doing as well as maybe they have in the past or that they could be doing.
Speaker 1:Yep, and so this is going to sound a little bit like a silly question, but I think it's worth unpacking a bit. Why does this matter to employers?
Speaker 2:Right, that is the question right, and it matters because in order for people to show up and do the job you hire them to do and they want to do, they have to be well. So my sister would actually tell me sometimes she would spend so much time and energy trying to blend in, act like everything was fine, kind of stuffed down her struggles, that it took almost all of her energy and she was absolutely exhausted, not from putting in a good days at work but from trying to blend in. Yes, that's not what we want, right? We want people to show up and spend their energy doing the work we hire them to do. That's also what they want. So it becomes a workplace issue because we want that creativity, we want consistency, we want engaged people and that has to come from a healthy work environment, but also a healthy person.
Speaker 1:You know you bring up a good point First of all, several good points. One is just looking for changes, but that's not Andrea. She usually doesn't sound like that, look like that, act like that and then asking how are you doing? You're doing okay, but then I think too that when you talk about your sister and she's like using up all of her energy, you're just trying to blend in, that's going to bleed into other things, right? So if I'm a little you said shorter an email I could be very short in a conversation Like Andrea I don't know, I don't know right, I just get very snippy with you.
Speaker 1:I say, where did that come from? Like Bob's an ass? He probably is, but I mean whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. That response doesn't match. You know what I said to you, like are you okay? And so collaboration, you know, would clearly be like I don't want to work with her. She's like crappy all the time. I don't know what her deal is, but I don't want to deal with her. And it's not that she's a bad person, she's just going through a lot that you don't understand yet.
Speaker 1:And then your points around, you know, engagement, productivity, absenteeism yeah, I mean, there's it. It really does matter. It's not like I want to be your mom at work. This isn't. It isn't about that. It's about allowing people to to do, as you say, the work that we've paid you to do. And really, like you said, it's because it's the assumption of good intent that you want to do. It's a really important point. We've talked a little bit about how to recognize it in the workplace. Some are sort of just obviously visual kind of cues that people are giving. Are there things that are more subtle, andrea, like in terms of work, product or other things that might show up in meeting or whatever that we could be paying attention to a little bit better.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I think there has to be a baseline understanding of how someone tends to show up and perform Right, that's first and foremost. So you have to understand the regular abs and flows which, if you're managing others that is part of the job you should know if you don't start there. But it could be things like oh, this person's usually very timely, their deadlines are starting to slip a little bit, usually their camera on and lately cameras always off. Or it could be they usually volunteer to do XYZ and they haven't volunteered to do anything in a while. That doesn't mean you always have to volunteer or you always have to have your camera on or anything. But these are ships in what you typically expect from someone and they are subtle at first and then they kind of get into the bigger things like you were mentioning. You know, the bigger kind of snippy remark or the chat that's kind of off-putting, and first of all email and chat horrible way to communicate.
Speaker 1:Thank you, thank you Awesome.
Speaker 2:So many missed communications, especially if someone isn't in kind of their best place, because we absolutely project our own emotions and feelings onto those written words, so that can also be pretty telling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so there's a lot. You know, these days and again the pandemic is such a kind of seismic event that things tend to revolve. You talked about the before times. You know frontline managers have always had a lot of responsibility. It seems like they've got even more now. Because here's this whole massive element of we actually expect you to kind of be on the lookout and be supportive, be caring, be empathetic to folks that might be going through some stuff. How can we better equip frontline managers to kind of be that first line of defense, which sounds like a bad word versus like compassion or the right word is?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is a very meaty part of the book, so I'll try and condense it into some digestible chunks. But a few things for one. We've talked about know the baseline, notice the shut, the subtle shifts, great.
Speaker 2:The next thing that is really important if you are leading other people is to keep things as stable and consistent and clear as possible. So I love the saying clear is kind, unclear is unkind, and that is true for most people. But for those who are struggling with their mental well being, this work might be the most consistent and stable thing they have going on. And so when you have a last minute change and you could have told them in advance that you just didn't bother until the two minutes before, that can really throw somebody off. If you need to have a conversation, let them know what it's about, even if you think, oh, no big deal, it's a brainstorm session.
Speaker 2:They don't know that and in absence of information, humans will make up the story and it is never, ever in your favor. It is always catastrophizing. I'm getting you know, I'm getting fired. It's negative, negative. It's very human. So communicate, say hey, I'd love to pick your brain on this, or I'd love your input here. Or, if it is about something more serious, let them know so they can be prepared to respond. So surprises are not your friend here.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. So stability. I heard Getting expectations anticipating so that they've got time to prepare, particularly if it's going to be something that is out of pattern with what they might have been expecting, because you said it's pretty meaty section, so I don't want to give short shrift to this part of the conversation either. Other things that, as we think about frontline managers, that are helpful.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean the biggest thing a manager can do is to talk about it, to actually ask how people are doing, and not jump straight into the task or the to-do list. You have to build that relationship and gain trust. So when things maybe do go sideways for that person, they already feel comfortable talking to you. Not that they have to give you very detailed personal information, but you should be able to have a real conversation if they're struggling with prioritization or they need some time off, or they need something as simple as headphones because the cubicles are too loud and they can't focus Right, so they're. It could show up in so many ways, but if you haven't taken the time to build some level of trust, they're not going to come to you with those bigger things, which then, of course, compounds over to other parts of the work.
Speaker 2:Is a very you know direct line, this communication and trust. But having that already set is going to let these conversations be easy. The other thing that is just paramount if possible, a manager should also share any story, any benefit, anything that they could to open the conversation. So let's say they've had an experience with someone else in their life that's having a hard time, or they use the EAP, which is the most underutilized resource that you pay for and have you know. Just saying, I'm taking a mental health day, I'm taking my time off. I had my therapist appointment yesterday. It was optional optional, but when you give visibility to those things, it gives people permission to use them.
Speaker 1:Well, you anticipated where I wanted to go next, so thank you.
Speaker 1:Which is we had Tim Massa on recently. Tim is the CHRO at Kroger 450,000 employees it's a country, that's a lot. But one of the things that he talked about that struck me so much and I think you were just going there as well, andrea was vulnerability and and and sort of showing you know a side of yourself. Because exactly what you said, it gives people permission. It's like, oh, we can talk about that. Oh, I can talk to Andrea about something like this, like that, you're building a bridge. Now people have to choose to cross that bridge, but you can build that bridge so that you do become someone that's safer to talk to, someone who comes off as empathetic, right, and, as you say, building trust is sort of the key thing here. So, can we, can we just open up that, that topic on vulnerability, a little bit, and maybe, when it works well, or maybe some faux pas of trying to do a good thing that might have some unintended consequences?
Speaker 2:Ooh, yes, okay, this is a good one. So vulnerability it can be a bit touchy, especially for people who aren't used to being open or sharing. Or it's newer. You can tread very quickly into oversharing sometimes and, without realizing it, then it becomes just about you instead of opening the door to let other people also chime in. But if your version of vulnerability is always leading the conversation or trumping every story with your own story, that's going to backfire on you, or oversharing to where it does actually make other people uncomfortable so you can share too much or too many personal details. So you really want to try and keep it tight and as a door to allow the conversation, versus you owning and leading every conversation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember talking to someone who was going through a divorce and somebody else says oh Jim, I know exactly how you feel and that person had never been through a divorce and that was a highly counterproductive comment to make. Again, with good intentions but maybe misinformed on that's probably not the most effective way to show care and concern for that person.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And one of the best things you can say in those moments are wow, that must be tough, wow, I understand that's really hard. Instead of oh, I know when I did this or that would be hard because I did this other thing, or assuming that you know how they feel, because everybody has a different experience and, while we try to relate, like you said, with the best of intentions, just validating someone's feelings actually is the step, that is the move. Just stop there.
Speaker 1:I was speaking with somebody the other day who's like a global expert in listening and he was talking about basically, if you think about like with art, in negative space, the negative space in a conversation is silence. And so you know, if you told me that something was going on and I just go, hmm, let that sit for a second. Seven seconds is like become seven years, oh my God. Somebody can talk here and it creates people hate that vacuum and they'll talk some more. But you know, the kind of the two things that I've learned from him were tell me more what else, tell me more what else. And because so often there is a whole, almost always there's a giant later behind the surface bit that somebody shared. So and to your point, like that sounds, that sounds really hard to tell me more, oh my God. And then people can really kind of get it out. And that is like one of the kindest things you can do for somebody is just listen and not have the answer. Yeah, I love that.
Speaker 1:Is there anything generationally or genderly that are things that you would coach or counsel somebody on?
Speaker 2:You know the generational idea is very interesting as it relates to mental health because Gen Z push in the envelope as far as it is more of an expectation. It's more comfortable, more natural for them to talk about it, send memes about it. It's just part of the life experience with millennials not that far behind because they are supporting that is. Millennials now are in a lot of management and upper management positions. Even so, really advocating and supporting that Are Gen. Why?
Speaker 2:I think you know it's a split because they've been in the workforce a lot longer than any of this has been acceptable. So it's just a little bit harder to mentally make that jump from privacy. But they're here for it. What I'm saying like they want it but more likely to support others doing it versus owning their own and sharing their own Because you know just was private for so long. And then boomers very difficult because that was a highly private, you know topic for ever until just the last few years. So I found that there is not it's not resistance necessarily of boomers saying mental health isn't real or anything like that, but just the comfort levels a lot harder to get there because you know of the lifetime of it being a private all the way down to Gen Z, which, like why wouldn't we talk about this? It's part of my well being.
Speaker 1:Right. And then. So there was an interesting article in the Wall Street Journal here today, I think, when, as we're recording this, where it was talking about younger managers with older people, that you're on their team, that they're leading, and so, to your point, you can start to see where, well, what would be a very culturally normative thing for me to talk about, to share somebody of a different generation, might be like why are you talking about this, right? Or or, if I'm an older person leading a team of younger people, and I think that, like, well, we don't go there, like that's not something that you talk about at work, like, but the other person's like, yeah, it is. Like what's the difference? I don't see the line that you see, right, why I can or can't be talking about this. You know, so that's why we've really kind of doubled down on frontline managers and like, because it's that's where so much of the conversation happens or does happen.
Speaker 2:It's true, but you know, one super interesting thing about the generations is that I think there is a bigger divide in how they personally share and experience and expect their own stories to be outward. But the expectation that the employer should offer mental health resources or should be more involved very high across most all of the generations that have been surveyed. Because once you realize that that is something that does help people and everyone sees that it can help, the expectation is there, whether or not they would ever personally use it.
Speaker 1:Oh, so that does that tie back to your EAP comments?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, because it's there and it's available, and people expect that it's there, even if they never tap into it.
Speaker 1:So what is it? I mean, is there a stigma associated with using it? If they know it's there and we're saying that the need is pretty broad, what's the what's the obstacle, what's the hurdle to getting people to actually engage with EAP services?
Speaker 2:Yes, that is the question right, and I think a lot of it has to do with ease of access. So typically, what you see is that there are some resources on the EAP that you might tout them during open enrollment, but you have to go in, remember your username, click five clicks down, call the phone number, look at the guide to see if there's anybody in your area that may match with you. Most people, especially if they are in a time where they're having a difficult moment, are not going to do that. So this is where you want to create a cheat sheet, a flyer, a hotlink. Make it as easy and visible as possible, and usage goes way up.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So, speaking of resources, are there other resources? Because you know there's like a lot of apps now to help people. You know whether it's meditation stuff, you can be chatting with somebody, so it may not be a complete zoom, kind of a call, or definitely not in person. Are there other resources, maybe even in the second edition of your book that you guys have found that it seemed to be resonating with people or that you would recommend?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and a lot of them are free and they have nothing to necessarily do with your benefits package, which is great because companies are adding more resources. But you know, it's kind of new so it's going to take a while, I think, to stabilize with the right vendors. Use whatever you have. But some of the biggest things are and we've talked about a little bit but if a leader or someone in a position of power will give a personal story example or just openly talk about mental well-being in a public company all hands, that is the biggest indicator that people will start to use the resources because it's now safe to do so. Also, yeah, highlighting the benefits your company offers, but even something as small as a beauty break, and this is my favorite.
Speaker 2:So you know, when you go on vacation and you are in your vacation zone and you're like, ah, I could just savor this moment forever. I like that, that lovely vacation moment. Well, when you get home and you're having a stressful time, you want to look at a photo from that vacation, look at your window at a beautiful flower or sunset, and just tap back into that feeling for 60 seconds. That will reset your day. Do the meditation, sure, but if you don't meditate or if you don't have that time, a beauty break is a wonderful stand in just to reset in that moment. And then just lots of similar things about resiliency tools and how to kind of keep yourself on the even ebbs and flows versus those big spikes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we're very a career club, particularly with our next placement service, are very, very behind using radical resilience training because it builds a muscle.
Speaker 1:Change is going to happen, stressors are going to keep coming and rather than trying to pair each one off with a different tool, I believe that the superpower is resilience and the ability to deal with it You're a really powerful thing is benefit finding. I wouldn't have chosen this for myself, but here it is. Given that what are some good things that might come from this right and it trying to find the positives in it. It's even why we named the service next placement what's next? Not who's out, but what's next. Let's be forward looking, and so I think you mentioned resilience. Obviously that resonates with me in a big way. But you said even like with these beauty moments, because I just got back from vacation a couple of weeks ago and I can make that mental picture exactly where I am.
Speaker 1:I took a snapshot in my mind and tried to soak in the moment to be able to draw on it, and to remember what that feel like, what did it smell like being there, just all of it, so that when you need to tap into it, it's available.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I do love the work that you're talking about with the resiliency and looking for the positives and trying to train your brain to have a more positive outlook, and I think I just like to delineate for people that that is the best thing to do, that that is the positive side of positive thinking. But what we don't want and this is especially true if you're a manager is to slip into toxic positivity accidentally. So what that could look like is always saying, oh, there's a bright side, if you just you know every day is a good day. If you make it that way in silver lining, all of those are fine. You've said one of those don't, don't freak out, it's all good.
Speaker 2:But it can become toxic when those are the only messages allowed. Nobody's allowed to have a bad day. Nobody's allowed to just be like, oh, that was, that was awful. No, it has to be positive, it has to be silver lining, rainbows. That's not realistic. And so if you're living there, and especially if you're a leader and that's the message, the only message you really need to reevaluate kind of the what you're doing with that messaging.
Speaker 1:Now I really appreciate you bringing that up, because it's very dishonoring to, and disrespectful of what somebody's feeling, you know, right then, and we can get to the upside of it on another day, and we know that that's where we want to end up. But but to deny somebody what they're feeling and to just, you know, kind of slap a poster over it, it's all cool, you know it's okay.
Speaker 1:Well, I'm not feeling that way right now and just just let me breathe this emotion for a little bit and kind of work through something. So that's such a great comment, thank you.
Speaker 2:And it's best of intentions right. Nobody is trying if they're trying to be positive. So that's why I say don't beat yourself up if you've done that, but just like, keep in mind it's okay to have a bad day.
Speaker 1:I want to pivot the conversation here just a second. Is there anything, andrea I'm sure there's a million things in anything that we haven't talked about, just sort of in this general realm of how to help folks or how to be helped if you're your sister in the workplace? Is there anything that you would want to just sort of put a bow on this part of the conversation with?
Speaker 2:You know, I think the only thing I would maybe mention is just making sure you have a support network, a peer network. Have somebody at work you can talk to, even if it's not your direct manager is it the manager you have before? Or that person in the other department you just really like Work friends or a special kind of friend. You never have to hang out outside of work, but that's like a very unique friendship. So you know, if you don't have good peers, at least one really good person you could talk to. That's something that I would recommend.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. Just, I want to move over, because this is one of my favorite parts of doing these podcasts is talking in your uniquely qualified, because of your leadership role, thinking about the talent attributes that you look for when you're building your team or you're part of an interview panel. What are some of the talent attributes that really resonate with you and you're like, ooh, this is a good one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean competency, for the job we're gonna assume has already been vetted. You know, what I love to look for is just someone who has the ability to get in and figure it out, work autonomously but ask questions. I think it was really important as a curiosity mindset because you can learn Most anything that's going to be thrown at you if you have those competencies. But if you're not curious and interested in figuring it out, it's probably not going to be quite as successful, and that curiosity and competence can be quiet or loud.
Speaker 1:What does that mean.
Speaker 2:I think our introverted friends sometimes get overlooked in the interview process, and so I try to keep an eye out for quiet competence and not necessarily the most extroverted, loud competence.
Speaker 1:How would you tease that out?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think it could be a difference in just one how someone presents and we are Sometimes drawn as humans to a more bubbly or extroverted hook me in with the personality. So you kind of have to consciously fight through that bias and really look for those skills and are you curious and are you interested and you know how did you solve that problem? Did you involve other people? Did you do it yourself? Did you ask for help? So not being swayed by the extrovert bias.
Speaker 1:So I like what you said earlier too about the Autonomous, but willing to ask for help and knowing what to ask for help. That's a really. Did you interview specifically against that characteristic? Tell me about a time when you I.
Speaker 2:Have. Yeah, I think when I can work it in, I always do.
Speaker 1:Do you have a favorite interview question?
Speaker 2:You know, my favorite interview question is actually to tell me one thing that lights you up the most about the work you do, because you can see the body language, the excitement, the engagement, and then you get to hear something people are usually really proud of, and Then that gives you insight into what types of things they're going to be excited to work on for you in the new role.
Speaker 1:That's a great question. I really like that. And last question what advice would you go back and give 28 year old Andrea?
Speaker 2:It's a good question. I think I would probably tell my younger self that nobody has it figured out. And if you can follow the things that you find interesting and Just keep exploring and finding those ways that you can still learn and be curious and explore whatever Twist and turns your life takes, like you're gonna be alright.
Speaker 1:Well, I think your career sort of has has borne that out. So we we talked a lot about your book. If people want to get a copy of that, I think we've got a QR code that we're able to show people. If you're watching this one, right, you too. Again, the name of the book is there's an elephant in your office by Andrea Heron and your sister, which is great, andrea. This topic is obviously so important and is just going to continue, hopefully to get more visibility and Respect and competence. You talked about competence. Well, we want people who are competent in helping our colleagues and knowing when to ask for help as well. So it's been a real pleasure to have you on today. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1:Awesome and thank you everyone for listening and watching again YouTube. Please subscribe and comment, and if you're listening to this on a podcast, it really does help when you're ready to review. So we thank you so much and again, andrea, so much fun. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Bye.