Discover the power of self-worth and master the intricate dance of salary negotiation with KL, an HR powerhouse with an impressive track record at BMW and Cody, as she joins me, Bob Goodwin, to unveil her latest venture, The Salary Bump. Imagine a world where you comfortably articulate your value and confidently navigate compensation talks, armed with KL's battle-tested strategies and a wealth of knowledge gleaned from her global corporate success. From her Canadian origins selling cars to finance her dreams, to the life-altering insights from a trip to India, KL's journey is as remarkable as it is instructive.
Unlock your potential with the transformative wisdom shared in our heart-to-heart about the art of salary and benefits negotiation. With KL's guidance, learn why offering a salary range can play to your advantage, how to leverage tools like salary.com and Glassdoor, and the crucial role confidence plays in not just asking for what you deserve but also in earning it. The conversation broadens as we dissect the psychological nuance behind negotiation tactics, the profound impact of asking the right questions for cultural fit, and the undeniable importance of gratitude and networking in carving out a thriving career path.
Cap off your listening experience with a deep dive into the ethos of The Salary Bump, where KL offers a guiding light to those looking to elevate their earnings and, by extension, their lives. Follow her on platforms from LinkedIn to TikTok, and witness firsthand how her expertise can shepherd you towards a more rewarding professional trajectory. If you're ready to command the compensation you truly deserve and foster meaningful connections along the way, this episode is your roadmap to success.
Discover the power of self-worth and master the intricate dance of salary negotiation with KL, an HR powerhouse with an impressive track record at BMW and Cody, as she joins me, Bob Goodwin, to unveil her latest venture, The Salary Bump. Imagine a world where you comfortably articulate your value and confidently navigate compensation talks, armed with KL's battle-tested strategies and a wealth of knowledge gleaned from her global corporate success. From her Canadian origins selling cars to finance her dreams, to the life-altering insights from a trip to India, KL's journey is as remarkable as it is instructive.
Unlock your potential with the transformative wisdom shared in our heart-to-heart about the art of salary and benefits negotiation. With KL's guidance, learn why offering a salary range can play to your advantage, how to leverage tools like salary.com and Glassdoor, and the crucial role confidence plays in not just asking for what you deserve but also in earning it. The conversation broadens as we dissect the psychological nuance behind negotiation tactics, the profound impact of asking the right questions for cultural fit, and the undeniable importance of gratitude and networking in carving out a thriving career path.
Cap off your listening experience with a deep dive into the ethos of The Salary Bump, where KL offers a guiding light to those looking to elevate their earnings and, by extension, their lives. Follow her on platforms from LinkedIn to TikTok, and witness firsthand how her expertise can shepherd you towards a more rewarding professional trajectory. If you're ready to command the compensation you truly deserve and foster meaningful connections along the way, this episode is your roadmap to success.
I know you're gonna find it. You gotta keep on at it. Hey everybody, this is Bob Goodwin, and welcome to another episode of Career Club Live. If you're not familiar with Career Club, please check us out. At Careerclub, we are offering a bunch of free resources for job seekers beginning in January which we hope you will take advantage of, including a free career coaching call every Thursday at 1 o'clock Eastern. You can find a link to that on our website. So today I am very pleased to introduce our guest, carrie Land Shaw, or KL. Kl is a former head of HR for North America for BMW, as well as the head of HR for Cody, the beauty company, and then most recently at Global Brands International as well as the Shade Store. Kl has recently started a new company called the Salary Bump and we're going to be talking a lot about compensation and things that you can be doing to increase your compensation and get paid what you deserve to be paid. So with that, KL welcome.
Speaker 2:Hi, thanks for having me, Bob.
Speaker 1:No, thanks so much for joining. So, as I said in the beginning, you start a new company and we're going to get into that in just a minute. That's very exciting, but, as we are want to do, I would like to ask you just a handful of questions so people can kind of get to know you as a human being. First, so easy one when were you born and raised?
Speaker 2:Love it. Thank you so much. I was born and raised in St Albert, Alberta, Canada, a suburb of Edmonton. So minus 40 is an average winter day. Hence the reason why I left in my early 20s Not because of the location, but the cold was not mine. So I'm a sun seeker. I belong at the beach. I live in New York, but that's really where I belong.
Speaker 1:Awesome, Very good. And then a little bit where'd you go to school?
Speaker 2:So I went to school in Alberta. So that was what you did. It wasn't. It's not like the US, where you go away to college, you generally go to the university in your city. So University of Alberta started studying special education, decided that that wasn't the route for me. I ended up with a marketing degree and then went to the University of Maryland and got my MBA.
Speaker 1:Oh, awesome, go Terps, come on. And then just a little bit about your family.
Speaker 2:So I have a husband and an amazing Gen Z daughter who teaches me something every single day. I did an expat assignment in Germany and liked to joke that I brought home a souvenir. My husband was a phenomenal experience in my life and life changing really to be part of his family and learn another language and from a cultural sensitivity standpoint, it's also taught me a lot in really navigating someone whose English is not their first language and how we argue. He likes to say that we should try to argue in German instead of English and see how I do, but I like to win. I'm a little bit competitive, so we generally speak English. But yeah, it's beautiful. Our daughter is studying international business. She's junior, on her way to London to study at Westminster and we couldn't be more proud.
Speaker 1:And is she bilingual?
Speaker 2:She is. She should practice it more. But yeah, she, when we lived in Germany she picked it up very quickly.
Speaker 1:That's what you were saying earlier, before we were on there. That's one of the greatest gifts you can give your child is the opportunity to speak a second language, so that's cool.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, she was my husband. We met him when she was six, so had we obviously met early on and she would be bilingual, no question.
Speaker 1:But learning to integrate English really was the language that we chose, so now she can learn British English and, as I think, I think it was Winston Churchill, but yeah, two people separated by a common language, so she'll learn another language when she's in London.
Speaker 2:Absolutely Whilst.
Speaker 1:She's in London, Whilst yes, amongst the British, Hopefully not a British accent, because that would be awkward. So I kind of breezed through because you've got some really great companies as part of your background. But when you got your graduate degree from Maryland, is that when you began your your full work career? Did you have an interlude between your undergrad and your graduate?
Speaker 2:So I had a bit of a different start. So, as I said, I was studying special ed and I quit school one semester shy of my degree. I was paying for my own school. I was selling cars actually to pay for college. So my parents really didn't say much about me quitting. But it didn't feel right. It didn't feel like this was the direction I wanted to go. Like most 20 year olds or 21 year olds, I'm not sure at that age how you really know what you want to do, but I knew that that was not the direction for me, so I ended up falling back into business.
Speaker 2:But in the meantime I worked and I worked, since I was 14 years old, and I worked full time while I was in school, regardless. So I actually preferred the work part and the school part and fast forward, I started working corporate and I almost didn't get the job. It was with General Motors and the gentleman that I met who asked me to send him his resume which, by the way, is how I've gotten every job I've never applied for one. He said oh, I didn't realize you didn't have your degree. And I thought oh, shoot, you know this could actually lock me from doing great things. So I immediately signed up to finish my degree. They put me through school and got helped me pay for the.
Speaker 2:MBA. So I actually did work and you know, when the door was closing, I pried it back open by saying Listen, you have an opportunity to mold me and shape me, and we can grow together, working together, and they then hired me. So yeah, it was a was a different approach, for sure, but wouldn't change it for a thing.
Speaker 1:I admire your pluck. It's like not taking no for an answer, which is which is really good and kind of helping them see what the benefits would be. So but you found your way into HR. How did that total accident?
Speaker 2:So, as I said, I sold cars and loved automotive. So I spent over 20 years in the automotive industry and sales was my jam sales and marketing and I loved it. Any contest I would win it or my team would win it. It was always about the win for the company, but I was really intrigued by sales and marketing. So HR completely. I honestly didn't even know how to spell it. I had zero connection to HR, maybe because it wasn't a modern HR that I was really interested in. Fast forward, I run a very modern HR.
Speaker 2:So it was an accident. Somebody said we like your approach, we like your style, we like how you think and we think you'd be great in this role. It truly was one of the best things I've ever done. I always said yes to every opportunity anyway, but when I moved into HR, I also became a professional coach, and that was one of the three biggest transformations of my life. I wouldn't want to go back into the business because the HR seat we actually get to touch every aspect of the business, or one of the few roles besides the CEO that has depth and is required to have depth in every single business area. I'm fascinated by human behavior, so it really was this beautiful journey that brought me to be a fractional CPO, but also three decades of work brought me to launching the salary bump as well.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Just side note. We had Brad Warga on the podcast last year.
Speaker 1:So Brad leads now the Global HR Practice, co-leads it for a Hydro Constructals. When we had him on, one of the things he said is like getting people into HR who come from the business and not lifers in HR, but people that have lived different parts of the business bring a fresh perspective. I think that you're a great example of that. We're going to get into your new adventure in just a second. But last question when you are not starting a new business or being the HR executive or fractional HR executive, what do we find Kale doing?
Speaker 2:So I mentioned automotive. I'm a car junkie, but my real passion is riding motorcycles, so I ride a car, of course I was going to guess right motorcycles right.
Speaker 2:It's a little bit strange, right. I wouldn't expect it, but I'm a major fitness buff, so I'm working out a lot. Love to travel and my husband and I found riding together was just something really interesting to do. It's not about speed, but it's the wind in your hair and somehow there's a freedom that is wild. I didn't expect to love it so much, but, yeah, I really really enjoy it. Open a bike, do you ride? I hardly, of course.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. That's what I love about asking these iceberg questions. It's like I'm learning all kinds of cool stuff about you. The people, as you say, are endlessly fascinating, so we don't ever want to take anything for granted. So you've had a very, very successful career as an HR executive with some really cool brands, but you've decided to strike out on your own. Why don't you tell us a little bit about the what in the why of the salary bump?
Speaker 2:Sure. So I evaluated. I guess it was 2016. I was in an environment that didn't match my values and I realized, you know what, I need to take a break. I took six months off. I traveled to India, I did Ayurveda, which I now do every year, was the second biggest transformation of my life and I really evaluated what is my purpose and I wanted to understand what I was meant to do on this planet and throw a lot of meditation and some really interesting experiences.
Speaker 2:I recognized that helping people unlock their potential was what I do best and I thought to myself I never thought I would launch a company. That wasn't really in the forefront of my mind. Becoming and continuing to grow as an HR executive was what I really loved, but I realized that people don't know what they don't know, especially around negotiation and sitting in an HR seat, I really recognized the limited number of people that actually negotiate, and a part of that is not knowing your worth and really helping people to identify that they are worth it and they can ask, and not to be afraid that the offer might get pulled. So I wanted to give people a little bit of a peek behind the HR curtain and give you the confidence and the tools to be able to ask what you're worth and earn the compensation that you deserve. And while it's not only about the money, it was never about the money for me. It really was about my growth and learning and sadly, I used to say that in an interview.
Speaker 1:I mean what was I thinking?
Speaker 2:But I always believe that if I did good work, the money would come, and to an extent it did. So I don't want to misrepresent that, but I realized, like everybody else who's listening, you're leaving money on the table and we all have financial goals, we have retirement goals, we have Bahamas homes.
Speaker 1:We have all kinds of stuff.
Speaker 2:We have lots of financial goals and there's no reason why we can't have it both, and so that was how the salary bump was born, and, frankly, I've been doing it for 10 years. I just didn't monetize it and people would tell me everyone in my life, kale, you should really do this for a living.
Speaker 2:And I was like I don't want to Do. I want to do it for a living, I don't know. And so it's sort of just evolved and I'm really excited about it. I think it's going to make a massive impact around the world.
Speaker 1:How hard was it for you to walk from corporate known income, known every I mean a lot of good assets to. I'm going to jump off a cliff here and see what happens.
Speaker 2:Scary as heck. So scary and obviously still is on some level right. Because I've been in corporate my whole career, I think I've made good financial decisions which have allowed me to be able to say, ok, I'm going to take this leap, what I've created, I'm also really thoughtful about the investment. And, yeah, I'm betting on myself and I always have, I suppose and so it's funny.
Speaker 2:I would ask my parents why, over the years, have you never, ever, given me advice? They've never given me advice, not once. Not. Did they question me when I quit school, moving to another country? Nothing. And even when I've asked for advice, they won't give it to me. And they said we've always just trusted that you will figure it out. And so I think, based on that and knowing I've got a heck of a lot of grit and I feel fairly unstoppable, no matter what has been thrown my way in my life, I know I'll figure it out, and so that's how I'm approaching this. This is an opportunity for me to go all in and, at the end of the day, I have income as a fractional CBO. I can put weight on different things at different times based on where I'm at, but I really am sure that it's all gonna fall into place as it's meant to.
Speaker 1:No. So, and I'm sure it will too. I mean, you're obviously a master of the topic, which we're gonna get into in a sec. So you said earlier, like people feel awkward about negotiating Not to know, is that a particularly American thing or not necessarily?
Speaker 2:No, I think around the world people are facing the same. So I have a lot of connections in Germany and help a lot of friends there. It's certainly socialized in terms of benefits are different. So it's a different conversation around benefits. But the big thing I see is people don't ask, they're afraid to ask, they don't know what they're worth. But what they also don't recognize is is there's this whole plethora of items around the compensation package beyond salary that if they're not even asking for the salary because we know those percentages are so low of people asking, we know they're not asking further on benefits packages sign on bonuses, cars gas, all these other things.
Speaker 2:Not one person in my entire career in HR of the thousands of people that I have made offers to, has ever asked tell me about the salary breakdown or, sorry, tell me about the benefits breakdown and the costs associated. So people think they're jumping to a new company and they're getting this great salary bump, but what they don't realize is that now this, it's gonna get eaten away because their benefits are not as good.
Speaker 1:So there's very simple thing. I'll cut down for a second. I need to go plug in my computer real quick. I thought I had like 100% battery now, so I go on zero, don't go away.
Speaker 2:Oh good, no worries, I'm gonna remind me to plug mine in too.
Speaker 1:In one second.
Speaker 2:Perfect. Thanks so much, Bob. Yeah, it's a really shocking. It's a shocking thing, but I think it's just people don't know what they don't know and that they can ask.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, I'll start with that. Okay, I have to go grab my power. Let's see, I was on like 80% power when we started and that quickly diminished, so oh good, no worries.
Speaker 1:There we go Now. I'm not gonna crash the point that you were just making and we're gonna pick up right now. Is the people getting focused on compensation and like the salary piece and not realizing it's all gonna get eaten up in benefits, or that is such an important point that you're making and I would love for you to help listeners understand how to get the employer to help articulate and quantify the value of the benefits, because if one salary is $100,000, but the benefits package that they're being offered is worth $40,000 and somebody else is offering 110, but the benefits package is worth like 15. Like, how do they calculate this and get enough visibility to be able to do a calculation like that?
Speaker 2:So companies will rarely give you that visibility upfront, which I think should change, but that's maybe for later in the conversation. It's really about you equipping yourself with the information and the right questions to ask, and so this is part of what you will get in working with me, either through my online program or one-on-one with me.
Speaker 2:And really I list out all the different levers that you have to pull. So when you're talking salary, the first question that a recruiter or an HR person will ask you is what are your salary expectations? After asking, tell me about yourself. But usually in that first meeting they'll ask you that question and you really need to be armed with what your current package is worth. So I recommend people list out their current package, all the different things that are included in that package, including what they're spending on healthcare benefits, yup, car bonus, et cetera, pension in some cases. So list all that and list the value. And that way, when you go to have the conversation and you do your homework on the salary piece of it, you know you have different layers that you need to add in, either in the base salary when you're talking about what your expectations are there. But I always recommend you answer the question with your market research and the expectations and based on similar roles that you've been interviewing for. This is the range.
Speaker 2:I also recommend never, ever, to talk about a dollar amount. You always talk in ranges. And then you also say and obviously there are different ancillary benefits that we would need to talk through so that we can do it side by side, but looking forward to hearing more as we go through this process. So to sort of set that stage is very important. They're not going to do it for you, they're not really interested in paying you more than you're. Then they budgeted or they think the role is worth. It's your job to come equipped with all that information, to be able to ask, and then those levers really in the end become the negotiation right. So then you can say, okay, well, let's talk about this. We didn't quite get there on the salary, but let's talk about some of the other benefits and how we can close that gap.
Speaker 1:I see. I mean, what I love about this is it's a very fact-based conversation. It's not emotional, it's not. You know, hey, what I want is it's like well, this is my market value. Now, okay, you're gonna probably correct me in. What I tell people sometimes is when somebody says you know, what are your salary expectations, do you think it's a fair question to say well, do you mind sharing with me what the budget is that you've been given for this role?
Speaker 2:100%. I would never answer that question. Is that a legitimate?
Speaker 1:question to ask about.
Speaker 2:I would never answer that question without going back to the interviewer and say you know, listen, be really curious what your, what your budget is for the role given. We're in the early stages of this process to start the conversation.
Speaker 2:And it'll be helpful for you to share. Always go back, never, never, divulge your information early and if they come back with a range that's lower than you're expecting, then you can simply respond with, based on you know, roles, similar roles on the market and recruiters that I've met with. It's a little low end, a little low on the range. My expectations would be between X and X, always being prepared, and you never wanna be on the back foot of that question and no, everyone will ask you that in the first interview. That's a very, very common question that they'll ask. So you wanna be equipped to be able to respond, to put it back in their court and be able to respond at that rate and never divulge what you're making currently. And to your point about taking the emotion out of it, this doesn't have to be an ugly conversation or a conversation where people feel like if I'm asking for what I'm worth.
Speaker 2:I might come across greedy or oh. You know it's difficult times. There's a scarcity mindset. You know, at the end of the day, that's all stuff that you're putting in your head and you wanna go in with confidence and know that a negotiation can be a win-win.
Speaker 1:And Kale, this is why we get on so well, because you're exactly right. I mean, this should be confidence. It should be fact-based, it doesn't have to be emotional. It's about being prepared. It's about having an adult to adult conversation with somebody, and not this parent child Like I'm so sorry to be asking for something. I mean it's sort of like well, how much do you want for your house? Well, what's the market value for my house? I mean, these are known things we can kind of calculate. This Relatedly is when people say, well, kale, what are you making now? I'm like what kind of doesn't matter what I'm making now, if I'm making a million dollars or one dollar, what is this role worth to you and what's the market value for this role? That's the only germane thing to be talking about. I could be grossly over or under compensated. That should not color this conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't see them asking so often what you're making, but people make the mistake of saying, to answer the question, what are your expectations? I currently make it, yeah, they say totally not making acts, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you wanna be in a position to be able to have done your homework and to really know what the role is worth. The mistake I see companies make, though, is they budget the role based on nothing, maybe internal benchmark. They don't always go out into their own market research and their internal benchmark could be way off. So when you see a job posted in certain states, you're required to post what the role is, what the market value of the role is. Be mindful, that's not necessarily a market value. That could be a budgeted value.
Speaker 2:I don't see companies in my experience doing their homework on what the market value really is. They post quick. We need to fill this role. Here's what the last person was making boom. So for a company to really get it right, it's to do a full blown audit inside the organization against external research to see what the roles are really worth out there and are they paying people appropriately? And also, are they expressing to their people what their whole package is worth? Because that's where people might feel undervalued in their current role. But if you don't show them with the whole package is worth, you're missing a big opportunity as well as a company.
Speaker 1:Well, see, and back to kind of our point. I think even if the salary is kind of lower, the total compensation package which is different? Tell me, if you read this, that's even different than OTE. So, on, target earnings tends to be right salary plus bonus or salary plus commission or like whatever the variable component of the compensation plan is and people would talk about. Well, the OTE for this role is 200,000, but that's still not taking into account all the benefits and how much you'd be paying for health insurance. What's deductible on that? What's the 401k look like? What's the match? Is there a pension? There's just so many other things that go and it's all real money.
Speaker 2:Yeah, same with PTO. I mean there's another more flexible work or tuition reimbursement or childcare or transportation. I mean the list goes on and on and on, and those are real out of pocket costs that are costing you every month. So I mean I'll give you an example, my two most recent clients. I helped an old CEO with a multimillion dollar package. Transportation is included in some of these there's airplanes or train, cars or drivers.
Speaker 2:But I just helped an automotive technician who received his top level certification and he was making $100,000, an hourly worker. And with this top level certification, the interesting part around technicians is the turnover is 50%. So dealers have a really hard time finding and grooming and developing automotive technicians. And so when you have a certification this high, you become a hot commodity on the market and so other manufacturers are giving him a call. He loves where he is, he did not wanna move, he loves the culture, he loves the environment and he said but I wanna be paid what I'm worth, what do you think? So we worked it out and he got a $50,000 raise, and that was through multiple channels.
Speaker 2:So we got created on a hybrid approach from equity in the company, equity in his work, plus increased hourly rate, but that he was putting in the effort, he was also gaining more from the effort in his output. We also got company car in there. We got healthcare in there. We got gas fuel included. We got really creative with this package and sort of loaded the lips of his manager to be able to go and talk to his leadership about let's get creative with this person, because we don't wanna lose him and he doesn't wanna leave us. So there's a certain capacity. And then the last thing we added in was an additional two weeks of PTO, which, as an hourly person, also is actual, real money.
Speaker 2:So there are so many different things and I think one of the things I like to recommend to people is focus on what you value. So time off was always something I valued greatly. Flexibility to work from wherever in the world. I wanna be with something that also I really valued. So I always ask people to look inside and really figure out what are the things that are most important to you. It's not a compromise of one or the other. The salary should definitely always be there, but then you've got some play with things that really matter to you.
Speaker 1:Well, I appreciate you mentioning that, because when our clients, a career club, are having these same kinds of conversations and you're right, I mean there's a lot of variables that come into this like commute, do you even care what this company does? Are you gonna have the opportunity to grow in your career? Like, does it fit your life? Not just you know one aspect of your bank account and so, as you say, kind of like you know what do you value? That's really the compensation is. Does it allow you to maximize the things that you value? And then how do you articulate those?
Speaker 2:And, as I said before, I mean money was never my number one driver. I made the mistake of actually thinking it was one or the other in my early days, and now I recognize that you can and should have both. You can have money the salary without it coming across in a negative way, and I can have all the other things that I want as well. And that's where you have the secret sauce and the magic happens when you work for a company, that all of it falls into place.
Speaker 1:I don't know if this is giving away your secret sauce or not, so you can stop me, but when I'm trying to research my value, I know a site like salarycom or Glassdoor or something similar. I mean, are those legitimate sources in your mind for just somebody, just a regular person out there trying to figure out what they're worth? Would those be good sources to go to?
Speaker 2:There are many good sources out there, bob, and in my online course I give you a few options, but with AI, it's changing every day, so I think what I always recommend is to look at a few different sources and also not just look online, but look within your network and talk to people about what they're worth. So in this technicians example, he talked to a few technicians who were in his master class that worked for different manufacturers and different dealerships, and that was another really helpful way for us to look at it. When I talk to my clients in different countries, it's different because they don't necessarily all have access to that. So, talking with friends in your network, your colleagues, your neighbors you don't have to ask them directly what they make, but you could ask something like what is a VP in your organization make? Or what is a director level in your organization make?
Speaker 2:I think you can kind of look at your own trajectory and get a little bit of a picture. You can also talk to HR in your current company and you can ask where do I fall on the range of this role? What does the next level look like? What is the range for that level? How can I continue to grow inside the company. So there are other things that you can do in other ways that are not just looking at chat. Gbt has a tool, a salary accelerator tool. Pay scale is a good one. There are a lot of options out there for you to put together your business case and just remember, though it's pure salary is what you're looking back.
Speaker 2:You're not looking at all the other benefits and again, those all add up in a significant way.
Speaker 1:Right, In a very, very in a compounding way too, right? So if I forego, you're getting like $20,000 right now. All my future raises and any other benchmarking against my comp is either based on that number or not based on that number. So being able to get it sooner is always better, Right? 100%.
Speaker 2:Well, look, forbes has a lot of people, I think, ground themselves to this statistic, but they've done a study where, if you job hop every couple of years, you will make more than 50% of someone who stays loyal with a company. Now, that's not to say that you can't grow inside your organization, but it's a little bit more challenging to do it. It's actually one of my secret, one of my secret sauces, if you will, I really focus on if people love where they are, they value where they are, helping them to get the salary that they deserve in their existing role or get promoted inside their company. So that's another, another angle that I think, if you approach it in the right way at the right time, it can be, it can be pretty significant.
Speaker 1:So we're working with clients and you know they're coming to the finish line. They're so excited that you know company X is making them an offer, about to make them an offer and you alluded to this early on but they don't want to screw it up. Now they're afraid of like, oh my gosh, I do not want to pop the bubble here because, like I'm almost home and I don't want to screw it up by looking like a pig. How do you get people over that anxiety?
Speaker 2:So, look, we focus on confidence and asking appropriately.
Speaker 2:I like to have people and loading their lips to have this conversation, to even just say listen. I'm really excited about this opportunity and I'm so grateful for the chance to work inside your organization and be part of this great team. Knowing now we're at the stage of negotiation, I know you want to make it a win-win as much as I do, so let's talk about what that looks like. You know, early on we talked about the salary and my expectations, based on other interviews I've had and the market research I've done. So let's start there and let's see how we can close the gap, and then we can talk about all the ancillary benefits, because often what happens when you get an offer they will give you here's a salary and a bonus.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:All the other stuff is not part of that conversation and so you want to make sure you're adding that there. So before you say at the end of that conversation, give me 72 or 48 or 72 hours to take some consideration time, you've already planted a lot of those seeds so they're able to then go back to their leadership and have further conversations. She's expecting we need to be ready with a richer offer.
Speaker 1:And I think too, kind of emotionally, the employer wants to get this going too. I mean, they've got, there's a reason they're hiring you, there's work to be done and there's kind of that decision fatigue of like, hey, we finally made a decision, I'm ready to start thinking about the next thing. Fine, another 10th, whatever? Yes, let's just get on board.
Speaker 2:They want you, bob, as much as you want them. And I'll tell you also, every single HR person and I will repeat, every one of them expects you to negotiate. So we're shocked when you don't. And you are leaving money on the table if you don't. And one of the other really important things to think about when you're going back and you ask for X or you ask for range is to stop talking.
Speaker 2:Silence is actually working for you and let them respond. So when you say my expectation was between, but you stop talking and silence is really a magical thing, in that case so yeah, I know it's, it's, it's always been amazing to me and I've never, ever once, pulled an offer. And I can bet, if you talk to 100 HR people, maybe one would say they pulled an offer, and the only reason you would do that is if somebody behaved really inappropriately or aggressive or something that just was, was rude. It's, it is very, very unusual. And again, when you, when you talk about it with energy and you talk about how excited you are about the opportunity and making it a win-win, you're setting the stage for really what can be a beautiful conversation and also shows your confidence when you negotiate, if you're negotiating with them. That means you're going to negotiate effectively with partners inside the organization.
Speaker 1:That means you.
Speaker 2:You're showing your leadership and your confidence to walk in to have a proper conversation. It means you're not afraid to have hard conversations, so there's all sorts of good stuff that comes out of that as well. That really works for you.
Speaker 1:That is such a great point, kay. I've never heard anybody make that point before, but you're right. You're, you're sort of behaviorally interviewing. How will you, how will you represent the company, how do you look after our best interests in a professional?
Speaker 2:but direct way.
Speaker 1:Which is really, really cool. So what is the easiest ask that people don't ask for?
Speaker 2:Well, as I said, they're not asking for anything. You know, in my experience less than 15% of people negotiate statistically At all At all. Statistically, if you can research it, it's 50%, and for women it's 34%, and even even lower for people of color. So step one is just ask.
Speaker 2:It's it's, it's so it's, it's underrated. Just ask. And I would say, do your homework, make sure you're going in prepared to have this conversation, because if you're, if you haven't done your research, you're going to stumble on that, on that question. And and I think you know one of the things I always like to say, and again, and this isn't, it's not just about the salary, a bump, it's not just about the money, it's you're interviewing this company as much as they're interviewing you.
Speaker 2:And another shocking thing that I always found was that people don't ask the interviewer questions. So in my program, I give you a list of really important questions to ask, because you want to know the kind of culture you're walking into, you want to know that this is a real match for you and that you could be protecting yourself from something that you know might not, might not, work out in the end. And I've made that mistake in my career saying yes, I was so excited about an opportunity. I definitely didn't negotiate and nor did I ask the right questions, and you know that values mismatch came out pretty clearly and I had to leave right.
Speaker 1:So no, no, and that's such a great point too because you know I've not run two jobs before. Sometimes I've been running from a job and you know. So I'm just looking to get out of there more than I'm actually looking to go to that, and that that would obviously Lend itself to not being a great match. Not negotiating because, look, as long as you can get me out of jail, like, I'm happy with whatever it is. That was just obviously a mistake, the thing you know. And then we're in you're becoming more challenging economic times.
Speaker 1:You know the Labor market is different. It feels like it's swinging back to a bit more of an employer's Market and, you know, versus you might. I was on the phone this morning with somebody like hey, my phone was ringing off the hook eight year ago and a ringing off the hook anymore, and so there is this sense of a bird in the hand, you know, kind of a mentality, and that I think that there is a reluctance of kind of messing up Something, and so what I appreciate about what you're saying is that's all fair and true and fine. It doesn't change the dynamic of you should be getting paid. What you're worth, and one of the main reasons you're not is you're not doing a the research and then be asking for what you're worth Based on your research. Yeah, and anybody can do this.
Speaker 2:Anybody can do this, and just not enough people are. Look, you're always going to hear how tough the market is, how bad the market is, how Scarce the market is, how change is so hard. I just wrote a linkedin post about it. But what if it wasn't? What if change wasn't hard? What if there is abundance? What if there is, you know, tons of opportunities to go around. I think you just had Melissa Grabner on your On your podcast and love her. By the way, one of the things that she talked about was networking, and I mentioned this at the beginning of our conversation.
Speaker 2:I've only ever applied for one role in my entire career and the rest all came from a network. Sometimes me raising a hand, sometimes them saying, hey, we saw you in this project, we want you on this team. All of it came from a network, all of it. What came from? The impression that I left wherever I was and Fostering relationships. That really made a huge difference in my career.
Speaker 2:And when someone Says they want to help you, they mean it and not to apologize, you mentioned it in the podcast. Oh, I'm so sorry, bob. I know you're really busy if I hear one more person say that I wouldn't be on the call with you if I didn't want to be here. No, I'm not too busy to have this conversation, that's why I'm here. Let's like maximize you, don't apologize for it.
Speaker 2:Well, the one thing I will say is show gratitude. I find this to be also really underrated, and the amount of people that you help or I help, that don't say thank you, um, it's a, it's a miss. So show gratitude each and every day and once a year, all the people who've touched you or Mentored you or coached you or guided you or lend a hand to you in that year. At Thanksgiving, it's a beautiful time to show gratitude, send them an email and thank them for just being in your life and for the for the efforts that they gave you. It goes so far. You'll have no idea, because then, when you do need that person, you're not just calling, because you need them. Check in every once in a while, and if somebody has mentored you, I want to hear how you're doing. Did it work? Didn't it work? You know where are you at that, that it goes a long way, um, so I think it's just a nice.
Speaker 1:Nice. The very interesting thing, because you know, like I love networking, I love connecting people. That's probably my favorite thing to do. It's like, oh, you're gonna love her, she's amazing and, like I, I just enjoy doing that.
Speaker 1:And I think that with networking, sometimes people think that it's manipulative, right, and that I'm just trying to use you to get to something and and I suppose there are people that that is actually their aim they're just trying to stepping stone you to get to the next person. But when it's done, right, you know it's not manipulative, it's it's sewing and reaping is a thing. If you plant, you will reap. That's not Manipulative, that's just the way things work.
Speaker 1:And if I plant good seeds and I plant gratitude, if I plant, you know the does intentionality to want to help and and you just do that is just part of a lifestyle Then what ends up happening Is on another day, as you say, like that starts to bear fruit and the. The other metaphor I use for this is like an ATM. Like if you make deposits, you can make withdrawals, but if you haven't been making deposits in other people's lives, you know so you just got laid off or something's going on. Like you can't go to the ATM and press the button hard enough to make money come out that's just overdrawn. Like you can't do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so.
Speaker 1:You know it's. You know dory clark we had her on the podcast and she talks to that. She wrote a whole book called playing the long game and and it's the the beautiful thing about the long game is it's all done with in the right spirit.
Speaker 2:Yeah there.
Speaker 1:It's trying to help other people and you're just sort of foster goodness, and when you do that, the amazing thing is it reflects back on to you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you pay it forward. It's it's a good karma. It's just you know you do. You do good things, you treat people well. It will always come back to you or someone else in your life, or you just never know, and that's not why you do it.
Speaker 1:But that's what I'm saying. It's not why you do it, it's just the natural result of doing it. Yeah, in the closing minutes, is there anything I want to talk about innovation in just a second? Is there anything else just sort of generally, whether you were speaking to a candidate or speaking to a fellow HR professional that you'd want to sort of add on to with our conversation so far on compensation?
Speaker 2:I think we've covered it, bob. I mean there's there's other elements, of course. You know we didn't talk about how you build the confidence to ask, how you know your worth, but I think, doing your homework, putting the facts together, trying to take the emotion out of it these are all things that anybody can do and we can obviously talk about that further. And if you follow me on LinkedIn, I post a lot, I post every day and giving a lot of free tidbits and tools to help you with that. So I think we've covered it.
Speaker 1:And in terms of innovation, I mean nothing stands still. You talked about changes like embrace change. What are some of the innovations either that you're seeing or that you would like to see in sort of the wacky world of compensation?
Speaker 2:I'd like to see and this is some of the work I do as a fractional I'd like to see companies actually drive the conversation around comp philosophy and really understand how that can work for them inside the organization. So I think it's a bit of an unknown. Most companies don't share what their philosophy is. Most of many of the companies don't even have one. Let's be real.
Speaker 1:I was going to say you can't share what you don't have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they don't have one, and they haven't found a way to connect the dots between transparency around pay, around talking about that full package and helping people understand how valued they are.
Speaker 1:And that goes beyond just salary.
Speaker 2:If you leave it to chance, people will make up stories in their head about not feeling valued, not being recognized. They don't know how they can grow inside the organization, they don't know how they can get promoted inside. They don't know how they can develop their careers. So there's a real miss and a big opportunity for companies to do this, especially because it's now being required by law. So get ahead of it. It will really get ahead of it. I'm actually working with some Canadian companies.
Speaker 2:A couple of provinces have now got the laws to post-pay transparency and for those that don't, it's coming. So every other state in the US and every other province of Canada should just get ahead of it and actually use this as an employer of choice opportunity. We have transparency around these things and, by the way, many of them have transparency as a value. But you're not valuing transparency around conversations, so it's not connecting. There's a beautiful way to have the conversation without fear that, oh, if we tell people, then they're just going to want more. It's not the case. One of the things I do in every head of HR role I've ever taken is I do an audit and an equity analysis and make sure that we're paying people appropriately at different levels, different diversity categories, and really being sure that we are positioned right for success in the long run.
Speaker 2:And usually when I show the leader the retention turnover numbers and what that's costing them it's no brainer to make the adjustments that are needed on the internal side and talk to people about why we're doing that. Because we value you and we value that you're part of our organization and the most important part of it. So I'm most excited about leaders paying more attention to the talent agenda and putting different demands on our leaders to be better leaders.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that one on just transparency. Gen Z is much, much, much more open about pay transparency, like my generation. I won't then keep that on to you, but it's like that's something that you didn't talk about. That was sort of a sex religion kind of a conversation, like we don't talk about that. And in Gen Z he's like I don't care, like yeah, this is what I make.
Speaker 1:And so I think that, as we see some of this generational transition, it's like just that's a value for them that will inevitably make itself and I love how you said kind of basically the employer branding uses as the opportunity, want to demonstrate this value that you're claiming and be an employer of choice, use it as a differentiator and let the laggards be laggards and you be a leader in stuff like this. And you know, as somebody who represents talent like this is the kind of stuff that people flock to. This is what they're looking for, and they're just not finding it nearly often enough. Until the extent it has to be legislated, you kind of lose all the credit for it. It's like, well, you did it because you had to do it, not because you wanted to do it.
Speaker 2:Well and again, there's also some big misses for the law that is requiring, because you might be posting on the outside what the range is and you haven't done the internal research.
Speaker 2:So guess what? The person who's sitting in that role who now sees what you've just posted online? It does not match where they are. How happy are they? So there's a massive like. You have to think about both and I see it as a real advantage. I agree, and coming back to Gen Z, I mentioned it earlier with. I have a Gen Z daughter who blows my mind every day on the kinds of topics that she talks about and her friends talk about mental health and the confidence that they have to just ask Like it's just. It's mind blowing. I wrote a post on LinkedIn about it and actually it went completely viral. It was around my Gen Z daughter who asked for a pay bump, never even talked to me. I own the salary bump.
Speaker 1:Well, this is generational, not asking parents for advice.
Speaker 2:There you go. She and she fought almost like unionized the dog kennel that she worked at and got everybody erased because someone came in at a higher amount. And she was like that's unacceptable. I've been here a year, these people have been here X amount of time and we all deserve a raise and she got them all erased. But she ended up quitting because she didn't feel valued. I thought, wow, it's 17. She was 17 at the time. Wow, it's mind blowing.
Speaker 2:It really is so and look at the end of the day. She just asked you know.
Speaker 1:Well, but also again and I think this is one of the key, key takeaways you talk about confidence, and it's probably the third or fourth time we've used word confidence. It's one that we use a lot at Career Club in terms of people understanding their unique value proposition that they're bringing to an employer. And confidence is not arrogance or cockiness. Those are not the same thing. Confidence is rooted in convictions. It's rooted, in fact, right so that it's it's. It has a real basis for why I'm confident.
Speaker 1:And I think that in your career and then now here with salary bump, is you're helping folks understand what their real value is, that they should be more confident. And even when we talk to people about when you're interviewing and you're confident, you sit up straighter, you lean into the conversation, your eyes are more open, you smile, you modulate differently and what we say is in the beautiful thing about confidence is it's contagious. When you believe, you make me believe, and so it just all works to the good compensation. You look, you're trading your skill, your time, your life in some ways for some remuneration. You should be getting paid, which you're worth. And if what'd you say 15, only 15% of people actually in the thousands that I have offered 15% statistically.
Speaker 2:statistically it's around 50%, which is still way too low for women. It's only 34%. It's way too low, it's absolutely too low, and I think the one thing that I would I would I would close with is if you knew that everyone on the other end who's making you an offer is expecting you to negotiate. The door is already open. So it's not as if you know that's not happening. So the door is open, walk through it. It can't hurt to ask what's the worst that can happen. They can say no. Best case scenario is you get everything you dreamed of and more, and that's all I can think of.
Speaker 1:I can't think of a better note to end on. Then get everything you dreamed of, and more so, kay. If people want to learn more about the salary bump, how do they do that?
Speaker 2:They can follow me. You can follow me on LinkedIn, carrie Lynn Shaw. The salary bump page is there. You can follow me on Instagram, my website. Everything is the salary bump, so TikTok, instagram and my website.
Speaker 1:Awesome, and we will make sure that those are in the show notes and that we've got links for people to be able to click on. It's been an absolute pleasure. We've gotten to know each other the years and I was very excited about this episode because you're just such a good human being but you're bringing very tangible life changing benefits to people. One is mentality back on the confidence. But then two is, as you say, people have financial goals, not just because I want more money, but because money allows me to invest in the things that are important to me, and that's a good thing. That's just an inherently good thing. So thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, bob, it was a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Okay, everyone, thank you so much for taking a few minutes out of your day today to either watch this on YouTube or listen to this on your favorite podcast platform. In either event, if you wouldn't mind, subscribing, rating and reviewing. It really does help and we wish you the best in 2024. And if you haven't negotiated your compensation, you should, if you don't know how, go to the salary bumpcom and KL will help you get to where you need to be. So, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Bob.