Episode 20: Stop Being Reasonable

In today's episode, Barb and Melissa discuss how perceiving something as unreasonable comes from doubt, especially when we are in uncharted territory. They encourage us to get less ‘reasonable’ and listen to our wisdom rather than preconceived ways of doing things. 

 In what areas of life could you get a little less reasonable?

Transcript

[00:00:00] SHOW INTRO

[00:00:44] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Hello, everyone. And welcome to REAL WOMEN REAL LIVES with me, Melissa, and
 
 [00:00:50] Barb Patterson: Barb.
 
 [00:00:51] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Barb.

[00:00:52] Barb Patterson: Barb.

[00:00:57] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Oh my goodness. Today we will talk about it—it's honestly one of my favorite topics because I've struggled with it for so long.

We're calling it 'doubt' in all its many facets. So Barb, I will hand it right over to you to help us with this. Help us

[00:01:16] Barb Patterson: Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've been fascinated and have seen the many disguises of doubt.

But at the end of the day, it's just doubt.And one of the ones that I fall for often is reasonable and rational thinking.

[00:01:37] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Ooh.

[00:01:38] Barb Patterson: You know, It just looks reasonable to me. And so, I don't see it as just a limited thought or self-doubt.

Years ago, I was, you know, around some of my mentors, and one of them said to me, "Hey, you, you seem to have lost your spark. You seem uninspired. Is something going on?"

And you know, when you hear something, and you like, I hadn't thought that, but as soon as you hear it, you know, it's true. We were kind of passing each other in a hallway, you know? And he said, "Well, yeah, just curious about it, because usually, I'm having to like pull you down from the ceiling versus, you know,” and I was like, yeah.

“Well, I can feel what you're saying. I can feel the truth of what you're saying, but I don't have a clue." And then we were both like, okay, see you later. Just knowing that was enough. Seeing something I could trust that I would see a little more.

What happened then is throughout that day, I just get these little hints of, "Yeah.I have kind of been walking around in a flat feeling." And yeah. Okay. And then, do my work, and something else would occur to me.

Well, I don't know if it was the next morning or a couple of mornings later I woke up. And Barbara Streisand's song from Funny Girl Doesn't Rain On My Parade is in my mind.

Right. And I'm like, "That's funny."And you know, sometimes that happens to me. I'll wake up, and songs will be, so I get curious, you know, so in this, I was. Yeah. What is that song? So I get, I look up on YouTube, and it's a clip from the Funny Girl, and she's getting ready to go on the train to follow the man. Right? And her friends are all saying, "Don't do it, don't do it."And then she breaks out into song, like don't rain on my parade. And you know, I won't, I won't even attempt it. I mean, it is Barbara, right? So

So I start laughing and I'm just kind of appreciating it. And then I have this moment of, "Oh, I'm raining on my parade." I am. And then that was like, "Yeah, I'm like a wet blanket on my inspiration."

[00:03:52] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Wow.

[00:03:53] Barb Patterson: And I saw over a previous couple of months, I had been getting inspired in these ideas of places I could experiment and try new in my business, whether it was a new course or it was reaching out to someone I wanted to collaborate or interview.

[00:04:10] But it was a reasonable thought. Things like "The timing's not right. They've got so much other stuff going on. You know, you're not sure what to charge or how you would do that. So wait"

Like all these reasonable, and because they weren't coming with anxiety, I didn't see it as doubt.

I just saw it as, "Yeah. It's reasonable. That makes sense."

So that began me seeing how it makes sense now is something to question potentially.

[00:04:47] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Whoa.

[00:04:48] Barb Patterson: And I saw that I was making my world and my possibilities and potential, like those places where I was getting these nudges and things that would sort of light me up, and then I'd be like, "WHAAA, WHAA. Not gonna work," you know?

And I'd be like, "Okay." I was a good trooper about it because it was reasonable.

So that idea of really seeing, like, what if I'm unreasonable? What if I was unreasonable in following my heart's desires? In those places that I want to stretch and have seen, even in the last few weeks, a potential opportunity may come to life.

And I watch myself kind of go to 'reasonable Barb' and shut it down. And then the moments when I'm not doing that, allowing the excitement of it, the desire for it... and what I've come to see it's when I'm coming from the place of potential, I get cool ideas on how to move in that direction, but they're unfamiliar ones.

They're different ones. They're not ones I've ever done before. Because what I'm aiming for, I've never done. So it makes sense that I have to step into the unknown. I have to draw forth new capabilities within myself. I'm testing my knowledge of who I am in one way. Right? But again, that reasonable thing comes into the picture often with things like "That's just a waste of time."Or, "Get busy. You got other things to focus on." You know, like just all those kinds of things. But now, in this, what we're talking about is—what if reasonable is just a thought I've just taken to heart because it just makes sense?

What if it's doubt? It's made of thought.It's not the truth, and am I willing to be unreasonable?

[00:06:47] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: You got me fired up over here. Barb.

[00:06:50] Barb Patterson: Go, girl. Go. Yeah.

[00:06:52] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: So fired up about this. Oh my gosh. Even talking about unreasonable things completely shifts me into possibility and excitement; I mean if you think about how this world has evolved.

[00:07:08] Barb Patterson: Yeah.
 
 [00:07:08] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: People had better have been unreasonable.

[00:07:10] Barb Patterson: Yes.

[00:07:11] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Otherwise, we'd be sitting on horses.
 
 Barb. I can't tell you how much I love this topic of what I call 'doubt' because it's something that has frankly plagued so much of my life. I didn't realize it was doubt; as you're pointing out, it just looked very reasonable. You know, logical, commonsensical, and there's one particular incident that I am reminded of.
 
  It was the first time I had to negotiate my compensation. Before that, I was told what my compensation would be. It was my first executive role, and I had to, I had to make an ask and. I came from a perfect place. Right. And my friend and mentor at the time. And she's still my friend and mentor.
 
 She told me what to ask for. And I remember thinking she was insane. And then all(I'm putting quotes around reasonable thoughts). "Well, I don't deserve that." "I've never made that."  "What will they think?".. .on and on and on.
 
 And so, with her help, I got on the phone (it was the phone at the time we didn't have Zooms).
 
 And I talked to the head of HR, and I made my ask. And this woman laughed at me. She laughed at me. And I remember thinking I was going to die. Right. This woman is laughing at me. And then she said some words, I don't remember exactly what they were, but it was kind of like, "Well, that's not reasonable."
 
 It was something to that effect. And I held strong in myself and said, "Well, I hear you, and I'd love you to consider it."
 
 Then I got off the phone. I felt like I was dying for a few days until I heard back. And then, of course, all of the doubt in my head, "Well, I  should have just...", "Why did I?"... All of those things.
 
 She called me back eventually, and she said, "Well, you know, we can't get you there in your base, but here's the total package. And we will get you there with the total package."
 
 I thought, "How did this happen? This wasn't reasonable. It wasn't possible." And you know, they're not all stories like that.
 
 But for me, I go back to that because so often, specifically around compensation, one of the things I'm doing right now is I'm helping an owner of an agency. And we were talking about his compensation model yesterday. I explained to him that he has so much intellectual capital and years of expertise. He's a published author. He's a Ph.D. He's incredible—he should look at his pricing model and not charge hourly.
 
 Well, the truth is that all of his competitors charge hourly. And that was his good talk back to me. And we went through it, and by the end of the conversation, he saw what I was saying.
 
 He is putting a proposal forward for something I'm calling value-based pricing, as opposed to hourly-based pricing. And again, it looks unreasonable, but Hey, we're doing it anyway. I have my quote about doubt, but there's one that I like even more: "Doubt kills more dreams than failure." And that hits home for me.
 
 Right. So many things that I thought were reasonable that I didn't try. Today, I practiced doing it differently. The other reasonable thing we did was a rather little thing, my husband and I, and my daughter. We moved during a pandemic across the country. That was not reasonable at all. That's the opposite of reasonable.
 
 And we had much doubt, yet it all worked out. It all worked out. It was tough to find a home because everybody was trying to move where we were moving. So that was unreasonable, but we just kept putting one foot in front of the other. And here we are in our beautiful home today. And so, I have to take action against thoughts that look reasonable.
 
 I have to put my toe in that pool. I have to "Doubt my doubts." That is my quote, by the way, that I love so much.
 
 I have to doubt my doubts, but not doubt myself. Meaning that I doubt the thinking that tells me this is unreason. And then take action anyway. And one of the things I love so much is coaching women around their compensation; I guess because it's something that I have struggled with for so long.
 
 And so, I have a younger woman negotiating her compensation for the first time. And when we first talked about it, she had the same reaction I did with my mentor. Like I can't do that. So we practiced a little bit, and a couple of weeks ago, she called me back after her conversation and got darn close.
 
 She was so surprised that it was possible. And so it gives me such great joy to help others see where those things that look so reasonable, like to just really shed some light there and do it anyway. I mean, that's fun. That's getting in like the pool, the playground life fully engaging and living. And the truth is sometimes there's going to be a no, sometimes it's not going to work out.
 
 But I know for me, it's much better for me to have tried. And, you know, (I'm putting quotes around failing) than not to have tried at all because I want to know that I had my back. That I was my cheerleader, if you will, for things that are in my heart and mind and intuition to do and to help others see that they can do it too.
 
 I mean, that is just pure freaking joy.
 
 [00:12:34] Barb Patterson: Yeah. I couldn't agree more. What continues to be helpful to me is realizing that when I'm living in a little mind, my options look limited. That's how it works. And so, often, I just take some of the limitations at face value to your point. I don't question them.

And it is the reasonable ones that I've gotten inquisitive about. Whether it's waiting a minute, can I keep working for this company whose culture seems insane but tell them I only want to work four days a week? That's unreasonable. I can't even ask yet. If you see, what keeps us from asking?

You know, like we just shut down that kind of desire. We have those places we're drawn to, or could I let go of this job and do something on my own?Could I go part-time and be okay? Like we get this inspiration, these places yet because of our ideas of money, our ideas of how the world works because of what we think is possible or not, it just looks.

Like a bad idea, but what if that good nature, that reasonable feeling, is an illusion? All it's demonstrating is that I've locked in the creative potential. I'm the one who said, yeah, no options here, but because. That creative potential within us, the creative potential of our minds, is innate.

It's there. I get ideas if I think about what to buy my mom for her birthday. If I think about what to have for lunch, I get ideas. If I think about why it won't work, I get ideas, why it won't work, you know? So to trust that way, if I stay open and don't just close the door because of my reasonableness.

Because it just doesn't look possible. It's just that common sense says right. What would I discover if I just don't take those to heart and stay open and curious and move in that direction? In a way, we have to understand that when we're going against our reasonableness, we're often in unchartered territory.

Just know that some of the side effects are that it might feel scary. Some of the side effects might be, you might think you're going to, you know, fall on your face, and you might, you know, like those things are there. But when we get comfortable knowing that, again, a theme we often talk about here but is a significant one in this conversation, we have it within us to rise to the occasion.

We have it within us to figure things out like you're saying. And so it's the not acting. The buying reasonableness at face value creates the feeling of limitation or stuck or blah like I had been living in. Right.

 [00:15:31] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Ooh.

[00:15:32] Barb Patterson: And so I think it's great. It would be like the invitation"get unreasonable." If you didn't buy or stop yourself because it didn't make sense, it wouldn't work. You're just sure it wouldn't work because you've got these bills or you've got this commitment, or you've got this company, you know, like just to get a little open and say, if I knew it would work out, or if I followed where I'm being drawn, what would be the next thing?

Let's be unreasonable.

[00:16:01] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Ooh. Ooh, that feels so good. Oh my gosh. To be unreasonable.

Many years ago, I had a conversation with a very, very high-up person at a public company about the possibility of people working remotely, you know, this would be a nice way to give people more time, so they don't have to commute.

I think they'll be more productive, more effective. And this person told me that I was insane, that we would never. Ever allow people to work remotely. Well, look where we are today. so yes, I was asking an unreasonable question because there are better ways to work. I believe the future of work does need to change, and I sure did send him an email when the pandemic happened.

And ask him how he was doing, working remotely. that's awesome. Yeah. And he was very, very sweet about it. And he's like, well, I guess you were right. That's funny. Sometimes things look unreasonable. I'm sure when people were riding their horses back in the day, it sounded unreasonable that we would be, you know, in a car with wheels, or I'm sure it was very unreasonable 50 years ago that we would be taking planes to space for.

Yeah, things that look unreasonable today will not look unreasonable at some time in the future. So I love your call to action about being unreasonable. And I would say, especially around work. You know, I'm talking to people, running companies, people that are, and everyone is saying e I believe things.

We are all burnt out. We're working harder than ever. We're burnt out, and we're losing people. And so my question i,s, why do we keep working so hard? And why are we burning people out? It's not working. Is there another way? What's the unreasonable solution to this? Yeah. And I think that there are several things that we can start looking at.

Again, things that looked insane a couple of years ago about working remotely. What's that for? And so, I remain excited about being unreasonable around the future of work. And I love the call to action, Barb. It's incredible.

[00:18:09] Barb Patterson: Yeah. I think, you know, we're at a cool time where everybody needs and how we get things done and why we don't want want want want want want want want to.

It's just a given in the work culture anymore. When I'm going for a walk, if it's raining, Sometimes I choose not to go, but sometimes I go, and when I go, when it's raining, I factor that in. So I wear a jacket that has a hood or something. Right. You know, but I like to factor the rain in. I use that example because people know how it will work out.

They stop imagining a potential, you know, because, well, I have kids and I have tuition and, you know, we have bills to pay and getting a new job at this point feels hard and scary, and you know, or so we just stop imagining. What's possible? We stop. We feel like we just have to take it, or it looks like I want to make a big move, but I am relying on this financial support, which we all need; like not taking any of that lightly, but if we factor in everything, we have to go on in our lives, Our minds will be creative in that direction.

In other words, it's like, okay, I want to make a move. I want to work less. And I want to pay my bills. Okay. Let's put my creative imagination, the unreasonableness, and the direction of that and see what we discover. If I stay open to that and follow nudges, that's where new ideas come. That's where. Synchronistic doors, opening conversations that all happen when we just stay open and realize like, "Oh, I can factor in the fact that I'm a parent, and I can factor that in and still dream."

You know, I don't have to give up on a dream or this desire to wanna shake things up because I have these obligations.

[00:20:01] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: I feel like you're speaking to me today directly. Maybe that's just your gift.

I remember a couple of years ago that I wanted to work part-time, and that was insane, right? That was completely unreasonable. People didn't do that. And. I don't know. I told the person talking to the hat I wanted to do that for whatever reason. And he was like, well.

That would be great. That works out perfectly for us because, you know, you're a senior,o,r, and we could work out, you know, all of the logistics, and it was fantastic. But had I not asked, it never would've happened. So I love what you're talking about. Like being unreasonable. I am going to take that with me today.

So whoever gifs going e in contact with me, look out; I'm going to look very unreasonable.

[00:20:51] Barb Patterson: Can't wait to hear what that creates for everybody.
 
 Yeah. So as always, thank you, everybody, for joining us here today and being in this conversation. We look forward to hearing how being unreasonable opens opportunities and possibilities for you, lets your imagination go, and leans into the inspiration versus the reasonableness; of what happens.
 
 And so if you've enjoyed this conversation and, you know, That would benefit from it. We would love for you to share it as always; if you love this, please go on apple or Spotify and share and give us reviews. It helps us out and helps us extend our audience. We want to know, is there anything going on for you that you'd like us to explore?
 
 And if so, email us at realwomenreallivespodcast@gmail.com and let us know. And we'll bring it to the conversation. Thank you, everybody.

[00:21:48] Melissa Palazzo-Hart: Lots of love.