Episode 16: Missing and Unsolved: Harold Holt

On a hot Sunday in December, Australia's prime ministers goes for a dip in the sea and vanishes in front of friends. His mysterious disappearance rakes up rumors of political assassination, communism, and submarines as people try to figure out what happened and why his body has never been found. Join us on The Odder as we talk about the disappearance of Harold Holt. 

Follow us on facebook here: https://www.facebook.com/theodderpod
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theodderpodcast
Twitter: https://twitter.com/theodderpod
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@theodderpodcast

Please rate and review!

Music Credit:
"Dragon and Toast" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

"Nightdreams" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0

Main Theme:
"Dream Catcher" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 4.0 License
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Transcript

Copy Transcript Copied

Episode 16: Missing and Unsolved: Harold Holt

1. Hello and Welcome to the Odder podcast. I’m your host Madison Paige, and today we are shuffling on to a long flight out to Australia where we will take a stroll on the sand of the beach where a prime minister walked into the ocean and never came out. Today on The Odder, we are talking about Harold Holt and his mysterious disappearance. Get ready for some political intrigue and chopping waters. Let’s go!
2. Welcome back everyone. So happy to have you all here again as we once again do a Missing and Unsolved Episode. Our last one featured Michael Bryson, a man who went to a rager in the woods and was never seen again. Unfortunately, there are no updates on that case although the family did host a 5k in his honor this past August with a staggering 118 people participating. Michaels case remains open and we hope that his family will receive answers. For our part, The Odder will continue to try and get the word out. Michael Bryson was 27 years old when he disappeared. He is caucasian, male, has brown hair that is medium length and hazel eyes. He is 6’0 tall and 180 lbs. He has a nose ring, facial hair and several tattoos. He has a heart tattoo with hands on his rib cage, a geometric bear on the back of his arm, a geometric lion on one shin, and a geometric elephant on the other. He was last seen wearing black shorts, white crocs with rainbow splotches, possibly a white shirt or black sweatshirt and may have a brown corduroy hat. He was last seen Wednesday, August 5th of 2020 at 4am in Hobo Campground near Dorena. If you have any information about his disappearance you can call 541-515-1619 or 541-513-3413. 
3. On a more personal note, The Odder passed 500 downloads! It actually passed it around the publishing of the 14th episode so I am running late but I am absolutely ecstatic that this little hobby project of mine is still going and that you guys are enjoying it. You know The Odder is small and our episodes are short but we are just all here to have a good time and take about 20 mins to breathe. Life is stressful and hectic and we all need that little break once in a while so I want to sincerely thank all of my listeners from those that have been in it from episode 1 to those who are just joining us now, welcome and Thank you. 
4. For Today's breather, we are taking a look at Harold Holt. Who went for a swim only to disappear in front of a group of friends in 1967. While his case is considered in some circles to be solved, the lack of body and other variables have led many to question if his death was a matter of accidental drowning or an assasination attempt. In fact, some question if he is even dead at all.
5. Cheviot Beach is no stranger to tragedy. Its very name comes from the S.S Cheviot which was a steamer that broke up and sank nearby, costing 35 crewmen their lives. It was never really a swimming spot for a sunny afternoon either as it is an extremely hazardous space with the threat of the tide dragging swimmers into the maul of razor sharp rock and reef formations that lay just off the shore. However, its name is known for a more damaging reason. Cheviot Beach was the location of one of Australians most talked about missing persons cases. A beach where a Prime Minister disappeared. 
6. Harold Holt was born on August 5th, 1908 in Stanmore, New South Wales. His parents, Olive May and Thomas James Holt would welcome the son just seven months after their marriage. When Howard was just six years old, his parents would leave both him and his brother behind in Sydney to move to Adelaide for the fathers work. The boys were left in the care of an uncle until 1916 when Howard would be sent to live with his grandparents in the country for a year before returning to Adelaid and completing his education there. This constant shifting and instability must have been hard for Holt but it didn't stop him from pursuing his education. At College, he was reported to be a popular and talented student, receiving scholarships and graduating second in his class. Holt spent his holidays with relatives or friends instead of his parents who had separated while he was in school. His father had become a talent agent with the Tivoli Circus and his mother had died in 1925 when he was 16. He had been unable to attend her funeral. 
7. Graduating from Wesley College, he then pursued a law degree from the University of MElbourne where he took part in Cricket and football as well as serving as the president of the Law Students Society and the Queen’s College social club. He was a prize winning orator and essay writer and was a member of a debate team. He graduated with a bachelors in law in 1930. His father invited him to continue his studies in England and live with him in London but Holt declined. 
8. He would eventually open his own legal practice in 1933 but unfortunately the Depression took most of his clients and he had to resort to living in boarding houses and relying on the hospitality of friends to stay afloat. He would eventually pull on the familial connections in showbiz to become secretary of the Victorian Cinematograph Exhibitors association. This would open several doors for him and lead to him expanding his own practice with two partners. They would found the firm of Holt, Graham, and Newman which would later become Holt, Newman, and Holt following a financial dispute. The second Holt would be that of his son Sam. Holt would step back from the practice after deciding to enter politics. 
9. Holt would have a lush and productive career in politics starting with joining the Young Nationalists in 1933. HE made connections with the Australian Women’s National League who would be later credited with his win to a seat in parliament in August 1935 at 27. This made him the youngest member of parliament and he kept a pretty low profile for his first couple of years but was not afraid to speak up when he felt it necessary. In 1940, he was ousted from his seat following a shift in political party control of the house. 
10. He would also have a brief stint with the Military during World War 2 where he was a gunner but the Canberra Air Disaster where three senior government ministers were killed ended that when Holt was called back to parlement. He was sworn in as the Minister for Labor and National service and formally resigned from the army all in the same day. In this role he was predominantly in charge of preventing industrial disputes from impacting the war effort. His days were filled with meetings between union leaders and employer groups to keep peace between the workers and the overseers. He also sponsored the passage of the Child Endowment Act which provided a social security payment to the parents and guardians of children and teens to assist in their care. This led to some newspapers calling him “the godfather to a million australian Children”. 
11. Several years passed where Holt kept a low profile as the political parties within the government shifted and new ideals began to eat the bones of the old. Holt, himself, became a supporter and later member of the Liber Party, a center-right political party in 1945. 
12. In 1949, he would win a seat in the house of representatives which would lead to his appointment of not only the minister for Labor and National service but also as the Minister for Immigration. He was already being looked at as a potential prime minister during this time. He was considered very different from his predecessor Arthur Caldwell who was a strong advocate for the White Australia policy and lets get it out of the way, yeah the policy was used to racially profile and reject those seeking asylum and immigration to Australia, partially those of asian and south pacific descent. Holt however felt very differently from Caldwell and one of his first acts was to allow a man named Lorenzo Gamboa to settle in Australia. Gamboa was a Filipino man with an Australian wife and child but Caldwell had denied his entry due to his race. Holt reversed the decision and made his views on the White Australia act very clear. 
13. Holt was described as one of the best labor ministers due to his ability to foster excellent collaboration between the government, the courts, employers and unions. He had a reputation for tolerance, restraint, and a willingness to compromise. His political standing grew through the 1950’s where he served on numerous committees and delegations. He was liked socially as well as politically and was named one of Australia’s six best-dressed men in 1954. In 1956, he was elected Deputy Leader of the Liberal Party and became Leader of the House. This led to him being generally considered the next in line for the position of prime minister. 
14. In December of 1958, Holt took over the role of treasurer. He had no interest in economics but saw the job as a way to cement his candidacy for prime minister. He was able to provoke major reforms to the banking system but did go through difficulty when inflation and an interest rate raise that led to a credit crunch nicknamed the Holt Jolt. The economy went into recession and unemployment rose to three percent. This led to a call for Holt to be fired but the support he received from the current prime minister sustained him. He would later call 1960-1961 the most difficult year in public life. Deflationary tactics in 1962, unemployment drop in 1963 and a highly approved budget for 1965 brought his popularity back to standing. 
15. On January 26, 1966, Howard Holt was sworn in as Prime Minister. Finally, all his work had paid off. He would serve in this position from 1966 to 1967 before his disappearance. His short time as prime minister was still very impactful. In his term he worked to improve the processes and attitudes towards immigration, indigenous australians and the arts. He even cultivated a personal friendship with President Lyndon B Johnson and is best known for saying in a ceremonial address that he was “all the way with LBJ”, which was appreciated by America but later panned by australians. 
16. This would not be his only faux pas in office. While charming, he was also known for a temper. A rash response to a criticizing story run on national television as well as the interrupting of a maiden speech of a parliament member left the government embarrassed. A following controversy over the alleged musys of VIP aircraft led to criticism within the party that Holt was “Weak” and lacked the ruthlessness of his predecessor. This culminated in an election where key seats and progress were lost and rumors within the party laid the blame squarely on Holt's shoulders. 
17. It is no wonder then that in December 1967, Holt who at this time was cracking under the constant stress and pressure, decided to take a holiday. He was to spend the weekend in Portsea. He was an avid spear fisherman and outdoors man. This is even tales of him wearing a wetsuit to spearfish and after successfully impaling his prey, he would place the fish still bleeding and wiggling into his wetsuit and zip it up to continue fishing. He was noted to have high endurance and would even test how long he could hold his breath in parliament meetings when he became bored. However, he was not a strong surface swimmer. 
18. On the morning of December 15th, after a nap following his final cabinet meeting, he left Parliament House after finalizing a press release and drove to RAAF BAse Fairbairn where he boarded a military jet to melbourne. His wife, Zara, opted not to join him on this excursion as she was preparing for the annual christmas party. Once he arrived in Melbourne, he dictated some letters to his personal secretary before going to a house he owned on St Georges Road in Toorak. He informed the housekeeper there that he would be spending the weekend at his beach house. He drove to Portsea in his red Pontiac Parisienne. He stopped in Sorrento where he ran into his neighbor Marjorie Gillespie who immediately invited him for drinks. Holt spent an hour in the company of Marjorie and her husband Wilton before having dinner with the housekeeper who had driven down with his clothes and provisions. I don't know why the housekeeper did this. Maybe this is what you do when you can afford a housekeeper. It seems odd to me but whatever. 
19. On Saturday, December 16th, he rose to a light breakfast and a morning of gardening and phone calls. In one of these calls, he invited his stepson Nicholas and his family down to Portsea. They would arrive after Holt played some tennis and to attend a dinner party he would later host. 
20. Now this all sounds like a nice relaxing vacation, spending time with friends, doing mild hobbies, a nice break from it all. But that all would end on Sunday, December 17th. It was starting off a normal day. Holt called his wife after breakfast and then drove to a local general store where he bought insect repellent, peanuts, and a newspaper. Weirdly enough one of the paper’s available contained a headline “PM advised to swim less” which talked about recent doctor advice Holt had received. But it is unknown if Holt bought or read it. He made plans for the rest of the day that consisted of a Point Nepean, a barbecue lunch, and an afternoon of spearfishing. He met up with Marjorie Gillespie, her daughter Vyner, and two family friends, Martin Simpson and Alan Stewart. The group headed to Point Nepean with the purpose of watching Alec Rose pass through The Rip into Port Phillip Bay. Alec Rose was a solo circumnavigator and was all the buzz in the news. However, the yacht was barely visible so the group only stayed a short while before leaving. With their plans suddenly open, Holt suggested the group stop at Cheviot Beach to work up an appetite with a swim. Holt knew that area well and had swam there before. The group got down to the beach but discovered the water was rolling and the tide was strong. Marjorie Gillespie decided to sit out and settled on a towel up the beach. Vyner Gillespie and Martin Simpson also decided the water was too rough for them and instead went for a walk along the beach. Holt was undeterred and plunged out into the waves. Alan Stewart waded into oteh shallows but at the feeling of the undertow strongly pulling at his legs, he stuck close to shore. Howard Holt was an athlete, he loved a challenge and a chance to show his mettle. So even though the currents were strong, he rushed ahead. MArjorie Gillespie would later claim it was like watching a leaf taken out to sea. One moment they were watching Holt bobbing out in the waves, the next he was simply gone. He did not even raise his arms or cry out for help. She would call it “quick and final” 
21. When the group realized that their friend was truly in danger, Stewart raced to the car and immediately drove to the nearby officer cadet school. There the victoria police were contacted and the search for the prime minister. However, the sea was working against the rescue mission as three divers were immediately repelled by the roughness of the sea. Soon helicopters, boats, police divers, and two naval diving teams all attempted in the search but the conditions made progress unattainable. By the end of the day more than 190 personnel were involved and by the end of it more than 340 people would be involved in the search and attempted rescue of Howard Holt but hope quickly dwindled and it soon became a search for a body. 
22. Operations would continue to be hampered by the rough seas. Divers were being pushed against the nearby cliff face as they searched nearby rock pools and ledges. Attempts continued until wednesday, the 20th of december, when the search was reduced to daily beach patrols looking for anything to wash up. Lieutenant-Commander Phil Hawke, who led the HMAS Lonsdale diving team, later stated, "any chance of finding the prime minister was lost by Sunday night". Officials concluded that Holt had been drowned and that his body was either drug out to sea by the currents or wedged into a rocky outcrop, unable to be reached. Zara was informed of her husband's disappearance by one of his secretaries. 
23. Now all in all, this seems pretty straight forward. The prime minister walks into the sea. The sea is noted to be in rough conditions, he wades out, maybe loses his footing or just caught in the waves and drowns. Simple enough and maybe that would be the end of it but so much mystery and conspiracy has surrounded the disappearance of Harold Holt that not only is the drowning questioned but the death itself. 
24. So what happened to Harold Holt?
25. Theory #1: He Drowned.   Drowning is actually quite common. In 2021, a total of 294 people died of drowning in Australia alone. It is very easy to become overwhelmed in the water, especially on a beach where the water has no defined edge. I have personally been in situations where I got overwhelmed by the wave height and a leg cramp and was lucky to get out of the situation but not everyone is. An average adult can hold their breath for 30-90 seconds. Even someone who practices holding their breath like Holt did, most can only achieve up to 2 mins. That is so fast. Holt likely misjudged how rough the water was, he was not in good health and got overwhelmed. Sir Robert Southey, a senior figure in the Liberal Party's would state in a 1994 interview on the matter
26. “My own feeling about what happened is something like this: [Holt] was a very good swimmer, a very good snorkeler and he came back to Melbourne and troubled, not very well, overstretched, overstrained, worried I believe at the ascendancy which Whitlam (this was his successor) was beginning to gain and thinking, "Well now I can relax there's one area in which I really am unchallenged boss, and that's the sea." And I think in that sort of frame of mind he went to the element where he felt liberated and misjudged the kindness with which his favorite element would receive him on that fateful day”
27. His own wife believes he entered the water that day to impress Marjorie Gillespie who he was reported to have been having an affair with. Although this was never confirmed. 
28. Further evidence to support this theory was some earlier incidents. Remember the newspaper that said the PM advised to swim less? This was due to a shoulder injury that he was on painkillers and physiotherapy for. You know a muscle you need in top shape to swim? A shoulder. He has also been in a previous incident of near drowning in may of 1967 when he had to be pulled ashore by his diving companions while in Cheviot Beach. He turned purple and vomited sea water and reportedly exclaimed “That’s the closest I’ve ever been to drowning in my life” after he became distressed in the water and blamed a leaky snorkel. 
29. The common problem this theory has is that no body was ever recovered. At the time of his disappearance, Senior Pathologist James Mcnamara was consulted on the lack of body and stated that he believed it was trapped by kelp and consumed by sea creatures. He said that if that were the case, the body would be skeletal in a period of 24 to 48 hours”. 
30. Bones don't float, in case anyone was wondering. 
31.  The federal government declined to do an investigation into the drowning which experts would later criticize. Holt’s case was relooked at by the coroner's office in 2004. In 2005, State Coroner Graeme Johnstone concluded that, "Mr Holt took an unnecessary risk and drowned in rough water off Cheviot Beach [...] there is nothing of significance in any of the material gathered that would indicate anything other than drowning occurred"
32. This has remained the official stance. 
33. But that didn't stop the conspiracy theories.
34. Theory #2: Howard Holt committed Suicide
35. Some claim that the march into the sea that day was not brought on by the need to show off or please a mistress but that Holt, depressed, tired, and with his political career in jeopardy chose to take his own life. Who Killed Harold Holt?, a television documentary that aired in 2007, boosted the suicide theory, as did an article in The Bulletin published the same year.  Edward St John, a lawyer and liberal party member,  believed that this was true, suggesting that Holt's death "appeared to be an act of a man who either wanted to die or didn't much care whether he lived or died".Sir Lenox Hewitt, a senior advisor and department secretary, recalled in a 1994 interview that Holt had seemed depressed in the period before his death. 
36. Suicide by drowining is more common than people think. According to the CDC, more than 44,000 people commit suicide each year in the U.S., with firearms and suffocation as the leading causes but just over 1 percent of suicides are attributed to drowning, and in 2015, 509 people killed themselves this way, CDC numbers show.
37. It is possible that Holt felt backed into a corner and with his known love for the sea chose that as a way to go. 
38. However many have looked down on this theory
39. Holt's son Sam gave an interview in which he said "there's no mystery, in essence there's no credibility at all; no one in our family believes it"; Zara, his wife, had earlier said that her husband was "too selfish" to commit suicide. 
40.   Others point to his commitment to his family, as well as the plans he had made for the coming year. The 1968 police report specifically ruled out suicide, as Holt had not done anything out of the ordinary in the days before his disappearance, and suicides in front of witnesses were considered atypical. 
41. Theory # 3: Assasination 
42. That's right kids, whenever a political figure dies there is someone waiting in the wings to say it was all an assasination attempt. Even if they keel over from a heart attack, someone will claim poison. In Howard Holt’s case, the assasination plots stretch far and wide. 
43. A 1968 Sunday Observer story claimed that U.S Central intelligence killed Holt because he intended to pull Australia out of Vietnam. Another Suggestion was that he was killed by the North Vietnamese after being incapacitted with a nerve agent. Both of these theories include the use of divers hidden just off shore who grabbed Holt by the ankles and dragged him underwater to drown before escaping with the body in a nearby submarine. 
44. Now these are pretty standard conspiracy theories but there are several holes. The trip to Cheviot Beach was a spur of the moment thing when a yacht viewing was disappointing. Were these assassins just waiting there in case he decided to take a dip? Also the water was so choppy and harsh, rescue crews who arrived moments after the disappearance were unable to properly check the water but a submarine and divers were able to hang out with no issue? 
45. Holt was also a strong supporter of Australian involvement in the vietnam war so a sudden 180 to pull them out would make no sense. As for the nerve agent, how would it have been administered? The trip to the beach wasn't planned and the beach itself was on army property that Holt had to have a special slip to go on so it wasn't like someone could walk up behind him as he was going into the water and pull a shooting umbrella trick on him. 
46. Look there is no way to confirm or deny whether either of these is plausible but it seems like the likelihood is very small that Harold Holt was assassinated at a beach he hadn't even planned to be at. 
47. Theory #4: Harold Holt didn't even die
48. Now to follow the “every politicians death is actually an assassination” you have the “no famous person is ever actually dead”. To this day there are claims of sightings of Tupac, Michael Jackson, and Whitney Huston; all who must have faked their death to live a quiet life. 
49. There were two theories surrounding Harold Holt’s possible fake death. The first is that he ran off to live with a mistress. Once again, using a diver and a submarine, Harold Holt uosconded off the beach in an apparent drowning to meet with a love, move to a different country, and live a quiet life. Harold Holt was a known philanderer. In fact, it was rumored that his wife Zara was an affair before she was a wife. In an interview with the Sydney Morning Herald, Zara claimed that her husband carried on dozens of extramarital affairs. It was even noted in his biography but Tom Frame who wrote "I have not included the names of women with whom Holt allegedly had a sexual relationship because I was unable to confirm or deny that most of these relationships took place […] by their very nature they were always illicit and Holt was very discreet.”
50. Marjorie Gillispie was apparently one of these women and some sources claim that her husband was fully aware but either didn't care or was supportive of it as he was having an affair of his own. 
51. Is it possible that a man may fake his death to run off with his mistress? Yes. Are there at least thirty different, easier ways to do it than faking a drowning. Absolutely. Once again I can neither confirm or deny that this is what happened and that Holt ran away from a complicated life to have a quiet one in a countryside somewhere but I don't feel like this was the moment he would have struck. 
52. Now buckle up kids cause this last theory is a doozy. 
53. In 1983, British journalist Anthony Grey published The Prime Minister Was a Spy, in which he claimed that Holt was a lifelong spy for the People's Republic of China. According to the book, It all began in 1929 when he was a student at the University of Melbourne. After one of his research papers grabbed the attention of the Chinese Government, he was recruited by the consul-general in Melbourne to write pro-Chinese articles for a business newspaper. Then In 1931, Holt became an agent of Kuomintang’s intelligence service in Australia and given a handler based in Sydney.
54. After being elected to the House of Representatives in 1935, Holt received special training in espionage. He was initially intended to be a sleeper agent, but was considered too valuable and was soon reactivated. He began passing on cabinet papers and other information, writing in code and making use of dead drops which is a type of espionage where information is passed between people without contact. Think of those movies where people leave briefcases at bus stops. 
55. Holt was deactivated when the Chinese Communist Revolution broke out, but in 1952 was contacted by a Kuomintang agent who was now in Taiwan and paid £30,000 to resume his spying. However, in 1954 he voluntarily deactivated because he had transferred his sympathies to the Communists.
56. In 1957, Holt discovered that the Kuomintang agent who had contacted him in 1952 was a representative of the Communist Party. He agreed to be reactivated once the Chinese government agreed to various conditions, and for ten more years continued to pass on state secrets. He was given an "escape route" in case he was discovered in the form of a submarine positioned off the Australian coast.
57. In May 1967, Holt began to suspect that the Australian Security Intelligence Organization had become aware of his spy status. He faked his own death on 17 December 1967, pretending to drown while swimming at Cheviot Beach, Victoria but in reality, after Holt slipped below the surface two Chinese divers dragged him down by the ankles and guided him to the waiting submarine. Holt spent the rest of his life in Beijing, and ASIO erased any trace of his defection to cover up its own errors.
58. Bun bun bah
59. And where did the illustrious Grey get this info? From an anonymous call that would later turn out to be a man by the name ofRonald Titcombe, a former Royal NAvy Officer who had left to avoid a court marshall and then invested in various business schemes that all went bankrupt. 
60. This book and this theory were widely panned. There was no actual evidence for any of the claims listed in the book. Holt was staunchly anti-communist. There were no sudden surges of wealth displayed that could corroborate suddenly becoming a well paid foreign spy, the likelihood of abandoning his wife and children was dismissed, and the waters of this beach were too shallow to hide a submarine. 
61. Zara Holt commented that her husband “didn't even like Chinese food” and Australia’s Attorney General at the time said “"the whole tale seems to be straight out of fruitcake land". 
62. Audience to the book widely criticized it and newspapers tore it to pieces. It should be said that in 1988 Ronald Titcombe sued The Observer for describing the book as a hoax and was awarded damages but only because they could not prove he was acting in bad faith. 
63. Of all these theories, the most likely and widely accepted is that Harold Holt drowned due to a strong current and bad swimming conditions. His disappearance has become a sort of dark joke in popular media in Australia. Bill Bryson, a travel writer, called it “the swim that needed no towel”. 
64. “To do a harold holt” has become slang term for a sudden disappearance. In 1988, Jack Gibson, a rugby league commentator and ex-coach of the Cronulla-Sutherland Sharks said “"waiting for Cronulla to win a Grand Final is like leaving a porch light on for Harold Holt". Over the next 30 years, opposition fans taunted Cronulla by waving posters of Holt's face and dressing up in wetsuits. 
65. If Harold Holt faked his death, He would be 113 today so it is unlikely he will be found alive but his body has never been found. His wife Zara passed away in 1989 never truly knowing what happened to her husband's body. Harold Holt lived an accomplished life and his disappearance still sparks conspiracy to this day. What happened to Harold Holt on that hot Sunday at the beach? Maybe we truly will never know. Maybe the answer lies at the bottom of the ocean. 
66. Well, that's all for this episode. So what do you think? What do you think happened to Harold Holt? Do you think it was a simple case of drowning? What about all those divers? Let us know what you think on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram and leave a review. The Odder Pod is now on TikTok. Come follow us there! Have a suggestion for a show? Send me an email at theodderpod@gmail.com with your request and whether you’d like me to mention your name, your alias, or nothing at all. Remember this is The Odder Side so give me something cool, creepy, or confusing to deep dive for you. If you liked the show, leave us a review! They really help! There’s actually a hurricane coming so I have to wrap this up. The Odder Podcast posts every other Thursday. Thanks for listening and I’ll see you next time on The Odder side.