5: Kara Hoppe, co-author of Baby Bomb, on how to thrive as new parents

Kara Hoppe wrote Baby Bomb with popular relationship expert Stan Tatkin. Their book is GOLD for new parents who wish to stay connected after the Baby Bomb! One of the best things we can do for our kids is to have a healthy relationship. However, no one really ever talks about how to do that. Listen to this interview with Kara to find out ways how.

Learn more about Kara: https://www.karahoppe.com/
Buy the book now: Baby Bomb: A Relationship Survival Guide For New Parents

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Welcome to The Healthy Relationship secrets for parents podcast, saving your relationship from parenthood. So the question is, how can we be great parents and have an amazing relationship at the same time? That's the question. And this podcast will provide the answers. All right. Well, Kara, happy, thank you so much for being here. I really appreciate it. And Kara is author of baby balm. wonderful book. And Kara, thank you so much for your time. Yeah, Jason, thanks for having me. I'm happy to be here with you. Great, well Kara, if you don't mind, just explain a little bit about what you do, or the why, in what you do. Would love to hear? Yeah, I, I am a couples therapist. And I'm also a wife, and a mother and a feminist. And I Stantec and my co author is a very dear friend and colleague of mine, a mentor as well unpacked his Institute's psychobiological approach to couple therapy, unpack train. That's, that's my jam, working with couples and helping them with their relationships. Like I was mentioning right before we hopped on. I thought that my marriage was really solid. And it was really solid before we became parents. And then cracks appeared that I didn't even know existed. And I was, I was surprised by that. And concerned, because I love my husband dearly, and didn't really understand how he became more of a foe than like my friend, you know, because of the demands of parenthood, or in within the demands of parenthood. And so, as Charlie, my husband and I worked our way through that, I began to get really clear on how much other couples were going through this in my practice, and friends of mine. And I talked with my friend, Stan and said, We should write a book about this, because this is a thing. This is difficult. This is a massive transformation, that people every, you know, many, many couples go through without very much guidance or support. It's really like a blind process of like, Oh, now we're parents. And but what does that mean for our partnership? And there isn't a lot of thought given to that. And, and then Jason, you being a clinician, we know from the research, how important parents partnerships is to secure offering secure attachment to children, like parents that are taking care of each other, are freeing up their kids to be kid we I mean, we know I mean, I know that theoretically. But then as a real human beings, I really struggled with that as a new parent. And so I was pulling together with all these ways to make that bridge was Stan and then we have a little baby bomb together. No, that's great. And you know, the subtitle a relationship Survival Guide for new parents. When our daughter was born, she's four now, man, we could have used something like me to when we I was the book that we need it, you know, because as couple as a couple therapists, they went to the literature went to find, like something to help. And nothing spoke to me. I think, like the goblins have a great book, but it felt a little dated in the gender roles to me. As a feminist, I was just like, I want something more equitable with Charlie. And that was like something that we were struggling with was how to keep things equitable, or how they felt equitable to both of us working full time and raising our child. So that specifically was like something I really wanted to work into baby balm. Yeah, that's great. Well, that's a good point. You mentioned the idea when Jude arrived, you to be in foes? Yeah. Would you say, you know, is that a common issue that parents who come to your clinical practice, have? And would you say like a big part of being foes? Of course, there's a million different ways to go about this is the relationship can be, you know, inequitable? Yeah, I mean, now having being on the other side of it, and having Charlie and I like, specifically, like applied all the guiding principles of baby balm, and like worked on our relationship I can see so clearly, we weren't identifying problems outside of us. Like in equitability, for example, we weren't saying like, okay, so So we've fallen into more traditional gender roles that don't work for us. What are we going to do about this? And we didn't like, see that as the problem. And then us working together and collaborating together to solve that problem. We I was like, why aren't you helping more? That's a faux, it was more it was bickering and attacking or like not saying anything, and having like Silent resentment, and I see that a lot in my clinical work. And I feel like that's just for all couples, no matter where you fall on the attachment continuum. It there's a developmental leap that we make, and parenthood, the parenthood initiation is such a wonderful opportunity for that beep, to seeing like to work on the problems, not each other. Does that make sense? So it's a different paradigm. And you can do that within equitability? Or the patriarchy getting into your partnership to by saying, like, I mean, first of all discussing, are we aligned that we don't like this? Like, is this a problem for both of us? And then like, how we're, what are we going to do about it, and like both partners will have to change. But they're changing in a way where they're collaborating, and identifying their own ways that they want to participate differently, based on this shared vision of like, that's a problem that we need to address. And that's great. It's almost like, this is the shared vision, our vision, you know, we're a team and you kind of mentioned, reverse that outdated sort of cultural norm, I guess. Yeah. Like, I'm doing this, and you're doing this, and a lot of it's, you know, I mean, in parenthood, I don't know what your and your wife's experiences, but like, a lot of hetero couples that I work with, and then my husband and I just unconsciously fell into these gender roles. You know, and I mean, some of its biological, if you have, like, a birthing partner is a female, like, there's a, but there's a biology to it with the actual act of birthing is obviously a bigger parenting responsibility. And then if they decide to breastfeed, that's also a bigger parenting responsibility. And that does end at some point, you know, and parenting goes on. But those Jen, those gender roles can stick and sometimes they work for people, obviously, you know, but like, sometimes, which is great. And then sometimes they don't. And that's what I see a lot in my clinical work is they don't and then there's like, but we don't know how to talk about it without the the the shaming and the criticism and the withdrawing and the defensiveness. And you know, all of the things that you and I like work on with couples every day, ya know? Yeah. And so is that what you're talking about the developmental leap? So, first, yeah, I think, I think that I think that, obviously, if we think about because you and I are trained and packed. So we know about attachment theory. But for your listeners, attachment theory has been around for decades, it's like a really helpful tool to predicting how people will react in different situations, and separations and reunions and under stress and in conflict. And like, what are some kind of themes of difficulty depending on like, where you are in the attachments continuum. So we could get more into that if that's helpful. But I guess I just want to say no matter where you fall, whether you have been offered secure attachment, or you are primarily securely attached, or you're primarily insecurely attached, and that was what was offered to you, it doesn't matter. Stan and I talk about this all the time, there's still a developmental leap of like visually, visioning a relationship that we call an scan calls this and I call this but I learned this from him secure functioning, which is based on shared power, how collaboration, two leaders with equal say that equal buy in that are deciding if we want to do this, we're deciding to be kind to each other, to be sensitive to each other, to put in this relationship that we have with each other first, both people jumping into the deep end together, and then going from there. And then we know from the research that that's like the couple's best bet for success is offering that kind of safety and security to each other. Because when we feel safe and secure, or more creative, more and more collaborative, more more generous, and not just like with each other but in our careers with our creative life with our children. You know We have more resources when we're resourcing each other. So what you're saying here is that a way to be great parents is to have a secure functioning relationship that you just described. Yeah, absolutely. I would say it's like the first. And for people that are partnered, it's the first step. Yeah. And you're gonna be a great single parent. And then obviously, that's a different thing. But there are people there are, there is a lot of research about people who are helping couples that have decided to uncouple co parent using secure functioning. It's still I mean, it's a different look. But it's like the same principles. But yes, I am saying and then saying, we're saying in our book, that the first step to being a great parent, is being a great partner. And that means offering support, and then also, like receiving support, was it which is tricky for people? Both it's vulnerable to like, offer up support, and it's vulnerable to say, I need help and receive it. So we can see how people can kind of struggle here. Yeah, definitely. I mean, you know, and you mentioned kind of what you were talking about the cultural sort of norms, a word, a term I haven't heard before, but it makes perfect sense. You said, the female partner in a traditional, you know, heterosexual marriage is usually the default partner. And it's like, oh, my gosh, that was so true in our relationship, and kind of how you shared now and in the book, is to find a way to talk about it. So that sort of default stance is explored. And it doesn't end up and I like this idea of resentment, or because it comes up so much. So it does it become a thing of resentment. Right. Yeah. Can you the idea of, you know, the fault parenting? I do know, for some couples that I work with, you mentioned, asking for help, or requesting, even offering help. I sometimes coach parents, I guess, this case would be the default mom, you know, what if you were to request, and sometimes I hear, Well, gosh, you know, I don't want you to request because in a way, I'm gonna, like take care of him, you know, in a traditional relationship, or, you know, they should just No, does that ever come up for you? Or do you have any advice or tips for that? Yeah, definitely. It's like, it's so I think there's like a paradox with that. It's like, it's both like, kind of a macro. Like, what are your agreements about parenting? Do you have any? I know, from my own experience, and my own naivete, you never, you know what I'm trying to say. But becoming a parent, we didn't have agreements, we didn't think that through that out. And most of the couples I see don't have agreements, either. They haven't thought that out. It's like exploring that at a micro level. But then there's also it's such a complex issue, because then like at a, or that would be at a macro level, the agreements, and then at a micro level, it's like, what is that person's relationship to asking for help? What historically has that been like for that person? Is that something easy for that person to do? Probably not. And so there's a lot of vulnerability in the ask, and, and naturally a defensiveness about having to do it. And I'm not saying that the other parent shouldn't step in more. Both people have a role in this, we know that as couple of therapists. It's, it's like relationship patterns of maybe one person overdoing and one person under doing and that takes a lot of bringing it to the consciousness with empathy, and care. And like, why might you be doing this? How might you want to change? What would that look like? How can you support your partner? How can you support yourself, and vice versa, back and forth, and again, like helping them collaborate, on like, what would work better, and then also, partnership is like, it's like parenthood, it's like the long game. You know, change takes a while. Especially when these are like deeply grooved patterns. It can be a win. If somebody says, I need help, and the other person offers it, you know, or the one partner is like a bit more attuned and jumps in and that partner change and the other partner received it didn't shut it down or criticize how they did it. You know, that can be like tricky, too. And, and just kind of acknowledging that these can be subtle changes that accrue over time. And then they can lead to like, transformational, just different dynamics in your relationship. Yeah, that's great. Well, and a lot of, you know, it's a cliche communication, but a lot of where this starts is first to talk about it. Yeah, I know, right? Yeah, for sure. You know, what I liked from your book, and I had this conversation with my wife at dinner is like, we need more explicit agreements, you know, even kind of like, you know, bigger picture where we want to go, even, you know, break it down to chores, and, and things like that. And so, in a way, it's, it's kind of like a dance, you know, this is an issue. Okay, now, we need to talk about this, and have some agreements around it. I don't know if you can say anything else about agreements. But man, I'm, I'm really, I'm really we've been really on that train. That the agreement trade agreement. It's a it's a nice bride. It actually, it seems like a lot of work upfront, but it's actually resource saving. Because again, you're not in a position where you're attacking your partner's character. And, and that's not going to be helpful for anybody as like, as human is that is, you know, it's like, do we have an agreement for this? That covers this? And if so, are both people adhering to our agreement? And if not, do we need an agreement? Let's make one. You know, it, it can simplify things. I always think of the story that Stan told me a million years ago about how him and Tracy his wife have an agreement that when they they used to travel, like pre pandemic, all the time to trainings all over the world. And they had an agreement that when they would take off, they would like, hold each other's hands. And like, look at each other. It was like a way that they regulated each other's nervous systems, as they took off on the airplanes. And it was like, an, it was an agreement that they made. And one time they were taking off. And Stan was like doing something. And he didn't uphold his end of an agreement. And Tracy said, Hey, we have an agreement for this. And you're not you're not upholding your end of the agreement. And he just, you know, so was like, Oh, you're right. I'm so sorry. It was like she was it was just it wasn't a character thing about Stan, it wasn't you're distracted, you're doing this, it was going back to us. We said we said we would do this for each other. And you this half of the week is not what's up, you know? So, and that's like, empowering because also because it's just, it's just accountability, you know, and I agree. And then you know, maybe, you know, getting more specific, like the spirit and maybe you put this in the book, you bring it hey, I thought this was our agreement. And if it's clear, one person can do that, which is, you know, fold the socks every day, then, okay, we can simply renegotiate the agreement. Right, exactly. Yeah, it's, it's more team oriented. It's not, you're not helping out enough. I'm doing everything. I mean, that's what we hear. That's what we hear in our couples work a lot. Right? The the US and the n again, it's that paradigm shift of like, attacking the problem, not the person. Yeah, as the partnership, via We're a team. I like that so much. Because, you know, as you know, being a parent, our resources can be drained. And for me when I'm tired, I am more and I mean, I am more likely to kind of, you know, bigger, or maybe even think of all the annoying things that my wife is doing. She's great. You know, she thinks I'm annoying to write Stantec and says, All people are annoying. I should add a lot with my couples all the time. But no, I forget where I was going. Well, you were talking about when you were tired, fatigued, a different part of you came out? Yeah, for sure. You know, ways to go about handling the resentment. That's what I was getting at. You know, if we have an agreement, if we have a framework, you know, kind of a way to bring things up. It can help with the resentment or at very least how we bring things up because for me resentment, gosh, in the early part, you're hired. That was one of our struggles. You know, he's kind of like, Oh, my God, I'm doing so much or you're not doing so much. Let me tell you a quick story. If you don't mind. I, I had a chance to talk to a client about this. And we realized how this was definitely a no go When our daughter was born, our first daughter, my wife was staying at home and I was working. I was working, and we came home. And the place was messy. And I'm thinking, Oh, my God, what are you been doing all day? Now? Is that a win right now? Is that Is that a good move? No. Because then it was reversed. I had her all day like, Oh, I see why. And of course, we talked about that, too. So I get off on my stories, and I forget where I'm going. But a lot of it, it's handling the resentments having agreements even around mess. So sorry for that. Yeah. Or even or even about the about the feelings of resentment? I mean, that doesn't have to be anything taboo in your partnership. It can be a door, like, I'm feeling resentful, noticing it, what's going on? Do I have unmet needs? Am I not feeling appreciated? Like are things not feeling like not? I'm not experiencing them as being equitable? What could be my part in this? You know, what am I am I pulling away from my partner? I mean, because resentment does that it, you know, depending, like, it can have people lashing out, it can have people pulling away. And so making it a conscious, and again, like a collaborative thing, I don't, I think coming to your partner and saying, Hey, boo, like, can we talk? You know, I noticed I've been feeling really resentful. I need to talk it out with you, because I don't really know what's going on with me, you know, and then like, right, and then and then and then it can unfold in that way of like, where you're inviting your partner in, to be your co collaborator to figure this out. Because it's, it's a relational thing. But to say that one partner would know automatically is especially being tired, and fatigued, and all those new responsibilities of parenthood, it's an unrealistic expectation. But you get two brains on it that are problem solving together. Could it be this? Could it be that I mean, immediately, like, I'm talking to you, Jason, and like, my heart feels better? Because I'm not alone in my resentment. Yeah. And like, we're figuring it out, for sure. And you can use it as a way to connect. I'm gonna miss and I'm ripping off this line, Kara. Resentment can be a door. Can right. Yeah, for sure. And this how you pronounce how you share it afterwards? It was it was so nice. You know, is it unmet needs, you know, not feeling appreciated? You know, what is my part in this? And man, these that's kind of, you know, really showing up and in a relational fashion. So, so awesome. So I'm glad it resonates with you. Oh, yeah. No, that's how you said it. And again, relationship or resentment can be a door, what a great way of looking at it. And I always share this too, you know, vulnerability can be a way to connect. Absolutely. And if I'm feeling something, if I'm feeling resentment, if I can pause, take a deep breath or two, and share that in a manner as you explained without the you, you're always You do this by just owning your side and sharing a little bit below the anger. Right now we can now we can get somewhere. That's a really vulnerable thing to say to like, I noticed that I'm feeling resentful. Can you help me? I'm not gonna, you know, I'm not going to attack myself. And I'm not going to talk to you. And I'm going to acknowledge I need some support right now. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, for sure. No, and it's so human. Hmm. Yeah, ideally, for the listening partner. And I know you shared this too, in the book, but a listening party needs to be present. You know, if you know something like, oh, gosh, I'm so sorry. What What can I do to help? Instead of, oh, you're resentful. But if you share that in that manner, chances are your partner's not going to be defensive. Well, maybe they would be, you know, mean, especially if they fall like in like the blue area, which is like more an avoidant attachment style. I mean, that's a very more read, you know, it mean, like any kind of, if they get a whiff of criticism, you know, and then, you know, it might have to take like another step of being like, I noticed you're being defensive, I'm not attacking you. You know, you're a great partner, and I trust you and that's why I want to talk to you about that, and that might and that's like supporting the team. I mean, it's not really it's for the other person, but it's for you to keep, like your eyes on the prize, which is, I need to figure I need help figuring out what's going on with me. You know, but then it's, you know, so I'm just saying, yes, it can go like, you know, a lot of like the examples in the book, and then it can go sideways. And that's like, not necessarily a bad thing, either. You know, when it goes sideways, because it's like, I mean, like, a lot of life is sideways. You know, and especially the last two years, we've all been like, sideways diagonal, like upside down, and we have to adapt to that, and continue to open up our hearts to each other. Even when we don't feel like doing that, you know, I mean, that's like, that is the work of partnership, like acknowledging, I picked this person, they picked me, we're not going to not pick each other right now. Because I feel resentful, and they don't want to hear it. You know, like, and so how are we going to get through this, and there might be a lot of slowing down and pausing in the process, like what we do with couples, like in the work, slow down, pause, connect with your body? How can you, you know, let's try this again. And I mean, and that's like, that's where the juice, like the juices or the gold is. And then when you have kids in the mix, and they're like, watching their parents do this, that's incredible. That is incredible. Like, that's how they go, then they go into the world, and relationships like, this is how people do it. People care about one another. People aren't just out for their own, you know, me, me, me, me, me, you know, people decide, let's do this together, and invest fully in that. And that's a different way of being. And that's though, that paradigm shift, or that leveling up that everybody has, like, there's an invitation and parenthood to do is to kind of see beyond like me, and to see like we and like how can we do this together? And like, what does that look like, you know, at the micro and you know, in the macro and going back and forth, and yeah, really invites people to, to be to transform themselves. That's great. I love it. I want to talk a little bit about rekindling romance. And in the foreword of your book, Terry rails, here's a quote from Barry McCarthy, and he says that the research is clear sexual satisfaction plummets with the birth of the first child and springs back as soon as the youngest leaves for college. Oh, wow. There's a lot of look forward to talk to Mr. Yeah. But um, I know in your book, and what is lovely, chapter title, about sex and rekindling romance. You call it finding a new spring of sexuality. And it is, you know, the first acknowledge the physical changes resulting from birth for females and even males too, and then to redefine romance to keep your connection alive. So if you can speak a little bit about that, even physical changes, or redefining romance, you know, whatever, whatever you're feeling right now. Yeah, I mean, it's a huge, it's an important topic. It's not, it's not it's under discussed, like many parts of parenting and partnering, you know, a lot of couples are finding themselves in a winter of their sex lives or feel shame about it, and feel like they're the only ones when they're not. You know, like you said, the research is really clear that all genders are disappointed with their sexual lives after having a baby. And this is for a variety of different reasons, and doesn't mean that you can't do something about it. The culture is pretty hard on birthing people. And just like gonna say that, that you have that language about getting your body back is just I know not all birthing people identify as females as women. So this doesn't apply to everybody, but it applies to a lot of birthing people. It's fairly misogynistic, get your body back. Our bodies don't go back. They have birthed a person nor should they go back, they have birthed a person. And so that expectation just immediately ashaming and criticizing and sets birthing people up to feel badly about their new bodies. And I don't like that it like it like as a feminist. It just infuriates me, you know, and then affects both both partners. So there's like that whole like culture there that's like has that movement But then it's like then what do how do you know birthing people fall in love with their bodies again, as they are? Like, what is that journey like? And how can the other partner be involved in that journey. I really like Sonya, Renee Taylor's book, the body is not an apology, and her practice of radical self love, I think that that's like a very important journey. Instead, another invitation to go on a journey to love your body is having a child and watching your body transform. So that's one part of it. And body changes can affect the sexuality. But then also, there's a biological part, like if you have a birthing person that is nursing, they, their sex drive is down. And there's a biological reason for that, that biology want doesn't want you to have staff wants you to keep nursing for the survival of the species. And that's not everyone. Some people have like an enormous sex drive six weeks after birth, and then their partner does not, you know, libidos change and parenthood changes libidos, but they change over the course of a lifetime, too. So I like to think about it, like working with my couples is like, widening the idea of sex, like, how can how wide can we make it like what is erotic to you guys, and hetero relationships, we get so limited to think that it's just penetration, when there's so many other ways to express in physical intimacy, pouring a bath for your partner, you know, giving a massage holding each other, you know, tons of ways to enjoy their, your bodies together that are easier on the bodies now that your parents and like finding ways to, for partners to talk about that with each other and to like, experiment with each other and play with each other again, and see again, like expand the idea of sex expand the idea of wins. Because we know also like that, like once couples start to feel like they're finding their spring, more spring calm. And that's really just like, affirming each other. I had so much fun with you. That was I liked that. Let's keep doing that like acknowledging any kind of physical intimacy as like, we're finding our way again, you know, and celebrating it together and recreating finding a new sex life, because you have to because then there's like the logistics of it. Like you can't just like go and have sex whenever you want when you have a baby, a four year old, you know, especially during the pandemic when they're home all the time. Yeah, you know, so it's just like being honest about that together and grieving that you know, spontaneity that's there. That's done for now, like Terry's quote might have been speaking to at 18. You could do that again, you know? A couple of decades. Yeah. Great stuff. I really liked the idea of why didn't the idea the definition of sex. Because again, this comes down to it. And maybe the theme, you know, for your work of this interview is collaboration. You two are sitting down and talking about it. And again, there's a chapter and for everyone listening to this will, of course get the book baby bomb. And then the collaborative stories exercise you had that was themed towards sex. Man, that was cool. It was never resentment. But what are the ideas you have about it? Right now? You know, that was kind of more of the, you know, the self reflection, you know, man, and then they're sitting down and talking about because that's the first step to a lot of this stuff you to our team, and you want more sex? Well, first define it, how you would like it, and then work towards it collaboratively? Mm hmm. Yeah, you're right. It sounds easy. But you and I both knows, like, partners ourselves. And as couple therapists, it's actually it's tricky. There's a lot of different stuff comes up. But that's not a bad thing. That's intimacy. You know, that's authenticity. That's life. First, with the being with the discomfort together, holding hands, you know, and like, I we don't know how we're going to do this yet. That's a that's actually like a really beautiful moment. Yeah, I agree. You know, that that brings more intimacy and trust and safety and security. Yeah, that's so awesome. And then you also this idea of over touched. I never heard that had a colleague talk about that. What a good point, particularly for moms to begin feeling over touch Yeah. But you also said, yeah, go ahead. I was gonna say, I'm always like wondering what that means, too, because it's like thrown around in the culture, like, over touched, like, stay away. But in my experience having as a mom and then as a couple of therapists, like what's going on there? It because usually the touch there's it's not just being touched, it's the touch comes with a need of me that I don't have the bandwidth to me, You know what I mean? And so it's like, it's not, don't touch me. It's more complex than that. It's like, please don't need from me right now what I don't have, please help me, you know. And so helping couples have that conversation or whatever it is, but it's usually something that's a lot more complex. And then we can go into an articles in Parents Magazine or in Psychology Today about like these themes of like, over touch, because when you actually get to people, and kind of help them take those steps into the basement, it's not simply I don't like hands on me. It's actually maybe I do like hands on me in a generous way. Or I like hands on me, after you've helped me with the laundry. Or, you know, because there it's, it's not simply the over touch. In my experience. Yeah, no, that's great. You know, reminds me of Esther Perel, talks about a big block to intimacy, sexual intimacy, is if one partner always feels in a caretaker role. Right. So basically, what you're saying is that, you know, I guess it comes down to collaboration. Yeah, I don't, I don't want to take care of you. I can't, I can't take care of you and have pleasure. I need to be released of that, to be able to receive and enjoy pleasure. Yes, it's collaboration. But it's also second, like self exploration as well, on both partners parts. How can Yeah, how can we do this? How can we Yeah, help support each other and having pleasure again, and desire again? And release of the caretaking at least from the bedroom? Yeah, this has been so amazing. Ah, you know, I feel like a fan. I'm like, wow, I get to talk to the person who wrote the book baby bomb, withstand tacking? That's awesome. But, you know, in closing, is there like, maybe this is an unfair question. But three, I don't know, top three tips. You can give parents to have a great relationship. Yeah, I'm going to see if I can do it. And I've loved talking with you, too. I think discussing with your partner, if you want to put your relationship first. Do you want to do that? Would that be good for you? And for them? And then like, you know, what, what does that mean to you guys? And I think that the externalizing problems is like the like a really game changer, you know, because we're not perfect. I'm not a perfect partner, nor do I ever think I'm going to be or have to be, and neither is my husband. And we love the shit out of each other. And we're committed to like working it out together imperfect as imperfect people. And again, I think that the that's where the intimacy is, and I get to be me, that's secure attachment. I don't have to be perfect in this relationship. And neither does he, in order to have a great relationship. Well, that well said, Well, how can and there's no need to comment on that. Yeah, how can people find you come to my website, Cara? hoppy.com, join my newsletter. And I'm on the socials at Kara hoppy. And also, I noticed too, I don't know if it's too late. You have a workshop coming up? And I don't know that's starting now. It starts on Saturday. And so the registration close a few hours ago, okay, but we'll be doing it again. It's Win Win parenting, better partners make better parents and you can find information about it on the next ones on my website, too. Okay. And then here's that. Here's a personal question. Were you thinking about doing it? Not on a Saturday? Yes. I am. Because it's better for I mean, what there isn't childcare on Saturdays? Yeah, so So, yes, yeah. So what I'm saying I'm much more likely to talk my wife into attending. They'd say like on a Monday or a Wednesday or something like that. Right? Or like maybe even something like the shorter same concepts but like, like Allah Is your commitment, like after bedtime? You know, so you don't even have to worry about school. You know? Yes, yes, yes, yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. This has been amazing. Ah, thanks for having me, Jason. All right. Well, we'll I learned so much in that interview with Kara. And if you want to know more about how I help parents have a healthy relationship, go to Jasonapolk.com. And that websites new It's my new coaching business. And if you want more information about relationships in general, check out my therapy practice Coloradorelationshiprecovery.com Thank you so much for listening.