39: Agreements, Resentment & Sex: A conversation with Kara Hoppe, author of Baby Bomb!

This is a replay of an episode I recorded with Kara Hoppe over a year ago.

She's co-authored the book Baby Bomb: A Relationship Survival Guide For Parents with Stan Tatkin.

We tackle some big topics here—agreements, Resentment, and Having more sex.

Kara's website & link to her book.

Transcript

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Jason 0:00

This is a replay of an episode. I recorded with Kara Hoppe over a year ago. I gain nuggets from this episode that often use today. With my clients and in my relationship, The main nuggets are having explicit agreements between the two of you. And the questions we'll answer is, how can I help? And what does that look like in practice? We'll also discuss the common issue that comes up between partners. Of resentment. How can we work with that? And after the baby, How do we rekindle romance, a K started having sex again, Kara also validates the mission of this podcast. Which is that one of the best things you can do for your kids is to have a healthy relationship. I wanted her on the show because I was reading her book, Baby Bomb: A Relationship Survival Guide For New Parents. When I was in the basement, getting ready for my round of uninterrupted sleep. When our second daughter was born. She co-wrote the book with one of my mentors, Stan Tatkin. Who's an author of several relationship books and he developed a couple of therapy model called pact. And here's the interview. I know you'll learn some valuable nuggets for your relationship. First off Kara. Tell us about yourself.

Kara 1:23

Yeah, I, I am a couple therapist. Um, I'm also a wife. And a mother and a feminist, and I, um, Stan Tatkin my co author, is a very dear friend and colleague of mine, a mentor as well, um, PACT his institute, the Psychobiological Approach to Couple Therapy, PACT trained, um, that's, that's my jam, working with couples and helping them with their relationships,

Jason 1:55

Kara. Why did you write the book, Baby Bomb: a relationship survival guide for new parents

Kara 2:01

I thought that my marriage was really solid and it was really solid before we became parents and then cracks appeared that I didn't even know existed and I was surprised by that and concerned because I love my husband dearly and I didn't really understand how he became more of a foe than like my friend. Because of the demands of parenthood or in within the demands of parenthood. And so, um, as Charlie, my husband and I worked our way through that, I began to get really clear on how much other couples were going through this and my practice and friends of mine. Um, and I talked with my friend, Stan and said, we should write a book about this because this is a thing. This is difficult. This is a massive transformation that people, every. You know, many, many couples go through without very much guidance or support. It's really like a blind process of like, Oh, now we're parents, but what does that mean for our partnership? And there isn't a lot of thought given to that. And then Jason, you being a clinician, we know from the research how important parents partnerships is to offering secure attachment to children. Like parents that are taking care of each other are freeing up their kids to be kids. I know that theoretically, but then as a real human being, I really struggled with that as a new parent. And so I was putting together all these ways to make that bridge with Stan. And then we wrote Baby Bomb together. No,

Jason 3:46

that's great. And you know, the subtitle, a relationship survival guide for new parents. When our daughter was born, she's four now. Man, we could have used something like that. Me

Kara 3:58

too! It was the book that we needed. You know, because as a couple of therapists, they went to the literature, went to find, um, like, something to help. And nothing spoke to me. I think, like the Gottmans have a great book, but it, it felt a little dated in the gender roles to me. As a feminist, I was just like, uh, I want something more equitable. With Charlie and that was like something that we were struggling with was how to keep things equitable, or how they felt equitable to both of us working full time and raising our child. So that specifically was like something I really wanted to work into baby bomb.

Jason 4:40

Yeah, that's great. And that's a good point. You mentioned the idea when Jude arrived, you two being foes. Yeah. Would you say,, is that a common issue that parents who come to your clinical practice have? And would you say like a big part of being foes, of course, there's a million different ways to go about this, is the relationship can be, you know, inequitable?

Kara 5:08

Yeah. I mean, now having Being on the other side of it and having Charlie and I like specifically like applied all the guiding principles of baby bomb and like worked on our relationship, I can see so clearly we weren't identifying problems outside of us. Like inequitability, for example, we weren't saying like, okay, so we've fallen into more traditional gender roles that don't work for us. What are we going to do about this? And we didn't like see that as the problem. And then us working together and collaborating together to solve that problem, we, I was like. Why aren't you helping more? That's the foe. It was more, it was bickering and attacking or like not saying anything and having like silent resentment. And I see that a lot in my clinical work. And I feel like that's just, um, for all couples, no matter where you fall in the attachment continuum,, there's a developmental leap that we make and parenthood, the parenthood initiation is such a wonderful opportunity for that. To seeing, like, to work on the problems, not each other. Does that make sense? So it's a different paradigm. And you can do that with inequitability or the patriarchy getting into your partnership, too, by saying, like, I mean, first of all, discussing, are we aligned that we don't like this? Like, is this a problem for both of us? And then, like, how are, what are we going to do about it? And like both partners will have to change, but they're changing in a way where they're collaborating and identifying their own ways that they want to participate differently based on this shared vision of like, that's a problem that we need to address.

Jason 6:57

And that's great. And it's almost like this is the shared vision, our vision,, we're a team and you kind of mentioned verse that outdated sort of cultural norm,

Kara 7:09

yeah, of like, I'm doing this and you're doing this and a lot of it's a, you know, I mean, in parenthood, I don't know what you and your wife's experiences, but like a lot of hetero couples that I work with, and then my husband and I just unconsciously fell into these gender roles, and, some of it's biological, if you have like a the birthing partner is a female, there's a biology to it with the actual act of birthing is obviously a bigger parenting responsibility. And then if they decide to breastfeed, that's also a bigger parenting responsibility. And that does end at some point. And parenting goes on, but those gen, those gender roles can stick and sometimes they work for people, obviously, you know, but like sometimes, which is great. And then sometimes they don't. And that's what I see a lot in my clinical work is they don't, and then there's like, but we don't know how to talk about it without the. The shaming and the criticism and the withdrawing and the defensiveness and, all of the things that you and I like work on with couples every day. Yeah, you

Jason 8:21

know, yeah. And so is that what you're talking about? The developmental leap? I think so.

Kara 8:26

Obviously if we think about, because you and I are trained in PACT, so we know about attachment theory, um, but for your listeners, attachment theory has been around for decades. It's like a really helpful tool to predicting how people will react in different situations and separations and reunions and under stress and in conflict. And like what are some kind of themes of difficulty, depending on like where you are in the attachments continuum. So, we could get more into that if like that's helpful, but I guess I just want to say no matter where you fall, whether you have been offered secure attachment, or you are primarily securely attached, or you're primarily in securely attached and that was what was offered to you. It doesn't matter. Stan and I talk about this all the time. There's still a developmental leap of like visioning a relationship that we call, secure functioning, which is based on shared power. Co collaboration, two leaders with equal say, that equal buy in, that are deciding, we want to do this, we are deciding to be kind to each other, to be sensitive to each other, to put this relationship that we have with each other first, both people jumping into the deep end together, and then going from there. And then we know from the research that that's like the couple's best bet for success is offering that kind of safety and security to each other. Because when we feel safe and secure, we're more creative, we're more collaborative, we're more generous, and not just like with each other, but in our careers, with our creative lives, with our children. You know, we have more resources when we're resourcing each

Jason 10:18

other. So what you're saying, Kara, is that a way to be great parents is to have a secure functioning relationship that you just described.

Kara 10:26

Yeah, absolutely. I would say it's like the first and for people that are partnered. It's the first step. Yeah. Um, you can be a great single parent and obviously that's a different thing, but there are people, there is a lot of research about people who are helping,, couples that have decided to uncouple co parent using secure functioning. It's still, I mean, it's, it's a different look, but it's like the same principles. But yes, I am saying, we're saying in our book that the first step to being a great parent. Is being a great partner. And that means offering support and then also like receiving support, which is tricky for people,. It's vulnerable to like offer up support and it's vulnerable to say I need help and receive it. So we can see how people can kind of struggle here.

Jason 11:20

Yeah, definitely. You mentioned asking for help or requesting even offering help. I sometimes coach parents, what if you were to request? And sometimes I hear, well, gosh, you know, I don't want him to request because in a way I'm going to have to like, take care of him, you know, in a traditional relationship or, they should just know, does that ever come up for you or do you have any, advice or

Kara 11:45

tips for that? Yeah, definitely., I think there's like a paradox with that. It's like, it's both like kind of a macro, like what are your agreements about parenting? Do you have any? I know, um, from my own experience and my own Navite, you know what I'm trying to say. Yeah, I do. But becoming a parent, we didn't have agreements. We didn't think that through, that out. And most of the couples I see don't have agreements either. They haven't thought that out. That would be at a macro level, the agreements. And then at a micro level, it's like, what is that person's relationship to asking for help? What historically has that been like for that person? Is that something easy for that person to do? Probably not. And so there's a lot of vulnerability. And the ask and naturally a defensiveness about having to do it. And I'm not saying that the other parent shouldn't step in more. Both people have a role in this. We know that as couple therapists, it's like relationship patterns of maybe one person overdoing and one person underdoing. And that takes a lot of bringing it to the consciousness with empathy. And care and like, why might you be doing this? How might you want to change? What would that look like? How can you support your partner? How can you support yourself? And vice versa, back and forth. And again, like helping them collaborate on like, what would work? better. And then also partnership is like, it's like parenthood. It's like the long game, you know, change takes a while, especially when these are like deeply grooved patterns. It can be a win if somebody, says I need help and the other person offers it, or the one partner is like a bit more attuned. And jumps in and that partner changed and that their partner received it, didn't shut it down or criticize how they did it. and just kind of acknowledging that these can be subtle changes that accrue over time. And then they can lead to like transformational, just different dynamics in your relationship.

Jason 14:04

What I liked from your book, And I had this conversation with my wife at dinner is like we need more explicit agreements, even bigger picture where we want to go, even, you know, break it down to chores and things like that. So, in a way, it's, it's kind of like A dance, you know, this is an issue. Okay, now maybe we need to talk about this and have some agreements around it. I don't know if you can say anything else about agreements, but, we've been really on that train.

Kara 14:33

The agreement train. It's a, it's a nice ride. It actually, it seems like a lot of work up front, but it's actually resource saving. Because again, you're not in a position where you're attacking your partner's character and that's not going to be helpful for anybody as like as human as that is, it's like, do we have an agreement for this? That covers this. And if so, are both people adhering to our agreement? And if not, do we need an agreement? Let's make one. it can simplify things. I always think of this story that Stan told me a million years ago, about how him and Tracy, his wife, have an agreement that when they, they used to travel like pre pandemic all the time to trainings all over the world. And they had an agreement that, when they would take off, they would, hold each other's hands and, like, look at each other. It was, like, a way that they regulated each other's nervous systems as they took off on the airplanes, and it was, like, and it was an agreement that they made. And one time they were taking off, and Stan was, like, doing something, and he didn't uphold his end of an agreement, and Tracy said, Hey! Like we have an agreement for this and you're not upholding your end of the agreement and he just, so it was like, oh, you're right. I'm so sorry. it wasn't a character thing about Stan. It wasn't, you're distracted, you're doing this. It was going back to you. We said we would do this for each other. And that's like empowering because also because it's just be, it's just accountability.

Jason 16:14

I like the spirit and maybe you put this in the book. I thought this was our agreement. And if it's clear, one person can't do that, which is, you know, fold the socks every day, then, okay, we can simply renegotiate the agreement.

Kara 16:30

Right, exactly. And then it's, it's more team oriented. It's not, you're not helping out enough. I'm doing everything. I mean, that's what we hear. That's what we hear in our couples work a lot, right? The use and the, and again, it's that paradigm shift of like attacking the problem, not the person.

Jason 16:53

What about those feelings of resentment that come up between us and our partner?

Kara 16:58

that doesn't have to be anything taboo in your partnership. It can be a door. Like I'm feeling resentful noticing it. What's going on? Do I have unmet needs? Am I not feeling appreciated? Like, are things not feeling like not, I'm not experiencing them as being equitable. What could be my part in this, I, am I pulling away from my partner? I mean, cause resentment does that it, like it can have people lashing out. It can have people pulling away. And so making it a conscious and again, like a collaborative thing. I don't, I think coming to your partner and saying, Hey boo, like, can we talk, you know, I noticed I've been feeling really resentful. I need to talk it out with you because I don't really know what's going on with me, and then like, right. and then it can unfold in that way of like where you're inviting your partner in to be your co collaborator to figure this out. Because it's, it's a relational thing. But to say that one partner would know automatically is Especially being tired and fatigued and all those new responsibilities of parenthood. It's an unrealistic expectation, but you get two brains on it that are problem solving together. Could it be this? Could it be that? I mean, immediately, like I'm talking to you, Jason, and like my heart feels better because I'm not alone in my resentment. Yeah. And like, we're figuring it out.

Jason 18:33

For sure. And you can use it as a way to connect. I'm gonna remember this. And I'm, I'm ripping off this line, Kara. Resentment can be a door. It

Kara 18:44

can, right?

Jason 18:47

Yeah, for sure. What a great way of looking at it. And I always share this too, you know, vulnerability can be a way to connect. Absolutely. And if I'm feeling something, if I'm feeling resentment, if I can pause. Take a deep breath or two and share that in a manner as you explain without the you, you're always you do this, but just owning your side and sharing a little bit below the anger right now we can now we can get somewhere.

Kara 19:20

That's a really vulnerable thing to say to like, I noticed I'm feeling resentful. Can you help me? I'm not going to attack myself and I'm not going to attack you. And I'm going to acknowledge, I need some support right now. I don't know what's going on. Yeah, for sure. You know, and it's so human.

Jason 19:38

I love it. I want to talk a little bit about rekindling romance. And in the foreword of your book, Terry really shares a quote from Barry McCarthy. And he says that the research is clear. Sexual satisfaction plummets with the birth of the first child and springs back as soon as the youngest leaves for college, you know, there's a lot of look forward to, but yeah, I know in your book and what a lovely chapter title about sex and rekindling romance, you call it finding a new spring of sexuality. And it is, the first acknowledge the physical changes. resulting from birth for females and even males too. And then to redefine romance to keep your connection alive. So if you can speak a little bit about that, even physical changes or redefining romance, you know, whatever, whatever you're feeling right now.

Kara 20:47

Yeah. I mean, it's a huge, it's an important topic. it's under discussed Parenting and partnering, you know, a lot of couples are finding themselves in a winter of their sex lives or feel shame about it and feel like they're the only ones when they're not, you know, like you said, the research is really clear that all genders are disappointed. With their sexual lives after having the baby and this is for a variety of different reasons and doesn't mean that you can't do something about it. The culture is pretty hard on birthing people. I'm just like going to say that, um, that you've got language about getting your body back is just, I know not all birthing people identify as females. As women, so this, it doesn't apply to everybody, but it applies to a lot of birthing people. It's fairly misogynistic. Get your body back. Our bodies don't go back. They have birthed a person, nor should they go back. They have birthed a person. And so that expectation just immediately is shaming and criticizing and sets, birthing people up to feel badly about their new bodies. And I don't like that. Like as a feminist, it just infuriates me, and it affects, both partners. So there's. Like that whole like culture there that's like has that movement, but then, how do, birthing people fall in love with their bodies again, as they are like, what is that journey like? And how can the other partner be involved in that journey? I really like, Sonya Renee Taylor's book, the body is not an apology., and her practice of radical self love. I think that that's like a very, important journey., it's another invitation to go on a journey to love your body is having a child and watching your body transform. So that's one part of it. And body changes can affect the sexuality, but then also there's a biological part. Like if you have a birthing person that is nursing, they their sex drive is down. And there's a biological reason for that, that biology want, doesn't want you to have sex, wants you to keep nursing, for the survival of the species. And that's not everyone. Some people have like an enormous sex drive six weeks after birth and then their partner does not. You know, libidos change and parenthood changes libidos, but they change over the course of a lifetime too. So I like to think about it, like working with my couples is like widening the idea of sex. Like how can, how wide can we make it? Like what is erotic to you guys? In hetero relationships, we get so limited to think that it's just penetration when there's so many other ways to express. In physical intimacy, pouring a bath for your partner, you know, giving a massage, holding each other, you know, tons of ways to enjoy your bodies together that are easier on the bodies now that your parents and like finding ways to for partners to talk about that with each other and to like experiment with each other and play with each other. Expand the idea of sex, expand the idea of wins because we know also like that, like once couples start to feel like they're finding their spring, more spring comes and that's really just like affirming each other. I had so much fun with you. That was, I liked that. Let's keep doing that. Like acknowledging any kind of physical intimacy as we're finding our way again. And, um, celebrating it together and recreating, finding a new sex life because you have to, because then there's like the logistics of it, like, you can't just go and have sex whenever you want, when you have a baby or a four year old, you know, especially during the pandemic when they're home all the time, you know, so it's just like being honest about that together and grieving that, you know, spontaneity that's there. That's done for now, like Terry's quote might have been speaking to at 18, you could do that again, you know, for

Jason 25:08

a couple decades. Yeah, there you go. Great stuff. I really like the idea of widening the idea, the definition of sex. Because again, this comes down to it and maybe the theme, of your work of this interview is collaboration. You two are sitting down and talking about it. And then the collaborative stories exercise you had that was themed towards sex. Man, that was cool. And then they're sitting down and talking about it because that's the first step to a lot of this stuff. You two are a team and you want more sex. We'll first define it, how you would like it and then work towards it collaboratively.

Kara 25:51

Yeah. Right. It sounds so easy, but you and I both know as like partners ourselves and as couple therapists, it's act, it's tricky. Yeah. Because a lot of different stuff comes up, but that's not a bad thing. Hmm. That's intimacy. Mm-hmm. you know, that's authenticity. That's life for sure is being with the, being with the discomfort together, holding hands, and like we don't know how we're gonna do this yet. That's actually like a really beautiful moment. You know, that brings more intimacy and trust and safety and security.

Jason 26:31

Kara in closing, what are your favorite tips? You can give parents to have a healthy relationship.

Kara 26:39

yeah, I'm going to see if I can do it. And I've loved talking with you too. Um, I think discussing with your partner, if you want to put your relationship first, do you want to do that? Would that be good for you and for them? And then like, you know, what, what does that mean to you guys? And I, I think that the externalizing problems is like the, like a really game changer, you know, because we're not perfect. I'm not a perfect partner, nor do I ever think I'm going to be or have to be, and neither is my husband and we love the shit out of each other and we're committed to like working it out together in perfect as in perfect people. And again, I think that the, that's where the intimacy is, I get to be me. That's secure attachment. I don't have to be perfect in this relationship, and neither does he. In order to have a great relationship. Wow,

Jason 27:34

that is well said. Well, Kara how can, there's no need to comment on that. but, uh, yeah, how can people

Kara 27:46

find you? Come to my website, KaraHoppe.Com Join my newsletter. And I'm on the socials @KaraHoppe

Jason 27:54

Awesome. Well, Kara, thank you so much for your time. This has been amazing. Aw,

Kara 27:59

thanks for having me, Jason.

28:02

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