Let's be friends

Spiritual Warfare: Fighting Demons, Our Passions and Sin

• Kara Mosher • Season 2 • Episode 24

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Join Michaela Nikolaenko and me as we discuss how our view on spiritual warfare has changed. Michaela and I have a similar path; we are both ex-occultists and ex-Protestants and now newly Orthodox Christians. During our journey into the Orthodox faith, we both fell victim to misconceptions about spiritual warfare.

As occultists, we both encountered demons. Not realizing what they truly were yet, we were tricked into believing they were our spiritual "friends," trying to utilize them on our path to healing. Once Christ came into our lives, like many new Christians, we fell into not only Protestantism but also charismatic teaching. This experience gave us a whole other deceptive view on what we initially believed spiritual warfare was. By God’s grace, we both came to understand that what we had been taught about demons and spiritual warfare was not the truth, and we entered the Orthodox Church—the true church. Once there, we realized the true nature of spiritual warfare and that picking up your cross and following Christ meant an ongoing battle, but not with the eternal demons like we once believed—it was warfare within. A lifelong battle not just with demons, but against our passions and sin.

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If you enjoy this episode there is also a bonus chat where Michaela and I dive deeper into the topics discussed in this episode. Find it on The Friendship Membership.

Want more? Let's be friends. Join the Friendship Membership.

Main Topics:

  • The reality of demons and demonic shapeshifting in spiritual warfare
  • The false origins of UFOs and alien encounters as demonic deceptions
  • The importance of spiritual fathers, holy traditions, and the Orthodox approach to salvation
  • The spiritual significance of suffering, passions, and humility in our spiritual journey
  • How to test and discern spiritual experiences through Orthodox spiritual practices
  • The false promise of sinless perfection and the reality of ongoing spiritual struggle
  • The difference between subjective and objective grace in Orthodox spirituality
  • The coming false alien invasion and the spiritual deception of the end times


SPEAKER_00

Welcome back to the Let's Be Friends Podcast. I'm here today with friend Michaela Nikolenko. Michaela is the host of Raised and Redeemed Podcast. She's a Christian author and an ex-new ager. Michaela was radically saved from child abuse, trauma, substance abuse, and ungodly relationships and the occult. And now she is an Orthodox Christian, a mom, a wife, and a storyteller, and she's one of my good friends. And I'm so excited to have her here today. Welcome to the show. Welcome back, actually, Michaela.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, thanks for having me again. It's so weird because usually when I come on a show, it's like I know I'm going to tell my testimony, but I already did that. So now we're having a whole new chat.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, we're doing like a kind of a girls' chat today. We've been talking about doing this for a little while, and today is the day that we're we're doing it. And we want to really talk about kind of a female's perspective, coming into Orthodoxy as a convert, and also coming out of the occult and the new age, and then also out of Protestantism and how we see spiritual warfare differently now as an Orthodox Christian. I think that's basically kind of gonna be the theme of this conversation. But also, we just want to like hang out as two girls and have a nice chat because there's a there's a big male presence in the Orthodox community, right? Have you noticed that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, there is. But uh one thing that's just so funny is like you and me trying to be normal and just like have a normal girls chat. All of our voice memos are always like, you know, like the spiritual battle or what we're going through, or like orthodox details and different conspiracies, and I don't know. So it's funny, like we're gonna try to be as normal as possible.

SPEAKER_00

I promised Michaela I would be normal and I wouldn't talk about conspiracy and like really heavy topics during this conversation. So I'm gonna be on my best, best behavior. I promise everybody.

SPEAKER_01

We'll save, uh, we'll save maybe the the controversial things for the end of secret chat.

SPEAKER_00

We are gonna do a little bonus chat, which will be if you enjoy this chat that and Michaela will be putting it out. She has a little membership on her YouTube, and I have a little membership, the friendship membership, they're gonna go on both. So if you enjoy this conversation, there's gonna be a little bonus. More of the heavy stuff will be saved for that. Not that this probably isn't gonna be full of some heavy stuff because the topic at hand, spiritual warfare, which when I was a Protestant, um, like coming out of the occult, like I everybody knows my story. I'm I was not a Christian. I didn't believe in Jesus, I didn't believe in demons. I was doing heavy psychedelic use, and then eventually opening circles and summoning in spirits, and it was and it happened, it worked. I never saw any of it as spiritual warfare or dangerous, which is crazy looking back now. And then you also had some experiences with the occult, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Reading your book made me feel so seen because I was like, oh my gosh, she's also seeing these like spirit beings like come out of her trees and out of the sky and like all these different things that like manifested. But when you're in that world, you're like, oh, this is just like, for instance, when I first saw like the sea urchin demon, at the time I just was like, oh, it was this weird sea urchin spirit, but I didn't know like, okay, these are all demons, so it's like you differentiate it, like, oh, this was like you saw like a demonic worthog or something, and like all these hellhounds. Yes, a hellhound, like all these different spirits we saw. And now that I'm a Christian looking back, I'm like, oh, they were all just demons. But at when you're in that world, you kind of you don't see that spiritual warfare element of it, and you're like, oh no, this was like the alien spirit, and this was the sea urchin spirit, and you differentiate them in that way versus seeing like there's good and evil going on.

SPEAKER_00

Totally. I thought they were it was my star family coming in, and a lot of the experiences that I had with spirits where they would literally just be energy coming and like melding with my head, and like literally like doing things to my mental state, like flashing weird symbols and hieroglyphics in front of me, and like speaking to me and telling me things and like black essences and clouds. And so these demons are absolutely shape shifters, yeah. And they yeah, and they will show themselves and like when I learning like that spirits like Ganesh or like Lakshmi, um Kwan Yen, like those were demons, I that was also mind-blowing to me too, because I used to do yoga.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I loved reading that part in your book and how like you saw, yeah, Ganesh is the elephant one, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, with all the arms. And it's like it's like an elephant-headed man type being with 10 arms. Like, that's how could anybody ever think that that was a real like that that thing walked, that thing walked around or whatever. That's an it's an egregor, which is a manifestation that's but basically these demons they don't have form, so they come into our minds. And we're gonna talk about how the spiritual warfare really kind of is in our minds and the struggle within our hearts. But these demons, they come into someone's mind like through yoga, through psychedelics, through whatever sin that we have that opens up to them coming in, and then they they give us an idea of what they look like. They might show it to us, however, that spiritual realm works, or in the psychic plane, or in dreams, um visions, which we need to be careful of. But what happens is we get an egregore, which is a collective thought form or manifestation that's given from the demon that gives it form or life in our world because it has to it has to possess or get into the mind to have life in our physical reality. So that's why Ganesh looks that way. That's not really what that demon is. That's just how it's like, oh, this is the avatar or outfit I want to show to people. So it's it's really cunning and misleading.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. And then we bring it to life in our actions coming agree into agreement with them, the art, the music, whatever we're creating while in communion with that spirit. Um, and something I like that you mentioned, it's like how they had all these different like heads and arms and how they they are really shifting shape shifters.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Um, and all the demonic spirits I saw, like when I had the alien encounter in my shower when I was on psychedelics, and I right after got possessed by these aliens. Um, I don't know if it was full-blown like demonic possession, but they they came in and they were trying to tell me my life purpose because that's what I asked. Everyone was like, Oh, you just didn't set the right intention. And I was like, I did, I did have an intention.

SPEAKER_00

My intention was to know my gaslighting, new age gaslighting is hilarious. Sorry. I know, I know intention was wrong, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, or you must have like been in a dark place psychologically, and it was just like a projection of your interest. Yes, exactly. No, it was I was going to the demonic realm asking questions, and they showed up to give me answers. Um, and I remember the aliens around me were so scary that I told them, like telepathically, we were telepathically communicating that they were too scary for me to listen to. I need I was like, I need you to portray yourself as something less scary. So they shape shifted into this like sexy cat-like lady. Um, and so just that like shape-shifting element. I remember when I first started reading scripture after coming out of all this, there was a verse about how God doesn't change like the shifting shadows. And I was like, oh my gosh, it all made sense to me. I was like, Yes, all these shapes shifters I've encountered for all these years, but he's not like that. He doesn't do that like they do. And that verse just like I was like, I felt so seen for what I went through.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, absolutely. No, I mean it's so it's hearing when you share your story. I it's just they they told me they were aliens too. And for that was the short time I believed in aliens, which there's a huge alien agenda, which we'll talk about more in the bonus chat because it's a little conspiratory. Oh, but um, I that was the only time I believed in aliens was when I was seeing these spirits and calling in my star family. But we know aliens are just demons now. It's a shape shifting, it's an egg, it's actually a literal egregor, that whole alien concept. Um, and everybody I want to mention that Nika Michaela has a 10-part series that you just finished.

SPEAKER_01

Or I'm still working on it. They're still pumping. I'm just now getting ready to do the 12th episode.

SPEAKER_00

So on coming out of the occult in the new age and talking about things like the danger of opening the third eye, the chakras, like an orthodox perspective on that, and like even yoga.

SPEAKER_01

She did a whole episode on that, like meditation, just all these like, and then they're kind of brief videos, like 10 to 20 minutes, so that people who maybe aren't interested in hearing my perspective will maybe give it a more of a chance for 10 to 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_00

That's digestible. I think that's really good. Um, and uh yeah, so we both had these experiences where we were really we saw the demonic world for some reason. God allowed that to happen to both of us before. I mean, you you weren't a Christian until after all that, right? Like I can't remind the audience on that. Like, what was your because we know that I didn't believe Jesus was even real at the time, and so I didn't believe in demons or Satan, but what about you when you were seeing that stuff?

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, so I sort of grew up, you know, cult just culturally Christian, but I didn't my fair my family never lived out the life of Christ. So to me it was just all like hypocrisy, and I didn't really believe Jesus was real. I always knew God existed, but because I disregarded Jesus, this is what led me into seeking God in all these counterfeit ways. That's why it's like scripture's so clear. Christ says you get to the Father through me. I'm the way to the Father. So when you look outside of Christ, it's so much easier to fall into all of these demonic counterfeits. Um, so yeah, I was seeking to heal myself from all my childhood trauma, and that's when I got into the occult and trying to find God and got all these messages about who God was. Oh, God is within myself. Maybe God was the aliens that like we'll talk about aliens more, but um, yeah, so I didn't really know I didn't believe Jesus was God. I knew God was real, but I didn't believe Jesus was God. And in fact, I thought Jesus came to just show us how we could all become God and that God was within ourselves, and that was like his purpose as like a guru. Um, so it took me finally seeing all of this stuff in the demonic for many years uh to finally come to Jesus and realize that I was not God because I could not fight these spirits by myself or overcome this element of the spirit world. It took God removing the veil for me to see a true spiritual war happening for me to know that I needed him. Um, and so it was a blessing that I had these demonic encounters, though I was in delusion for some time about what was actually happening. As we talked about, I just thought they were different weird spirits that were coming into my plane of existence. Um but it took one big oh, what was that? There to help you. Yeah, I thought they were, yeah, exactly, help me evolve, give me messages. Um, but it took seeing one really dark, scary demon um in a married man I was in a relationship with for me to truly open my eyes and see the extent of darkness because this uh demon I knew hated me. I just felt it, I saw it. Um, and that's when God began to reveal Himself to me and the fact that I was letting in these demons through my sin, through the adultery, through sexual sin, through witchcraft, the divination, the yoga, all of these things. Um so yeah, I came to Christ because I was scared.

SPEAKER_00

Wow. I just had the coldest chills while you were mentioning that. And that story Michaela shares in um the episode where you share your testimony on Let's Be Friends. And I know she's writing, she's got a book finished called The Secrets I Kept, right? Or the yeah, and and and what's the status on that? When do you have any idea when that might be coming out? Oh my gosh, I just need a literary agent. Like I'm a literary agent. We're looking for a literary agent. Yes, we want your book to come out because it's I mean, your story is uh it's fascinating, it's it's compelling, and also it's very honest and raw. And we were just kind of chatting as we started how I was like, I think people are really drawn to Michaela because she's so honest and raw. She does a lot of like vlogging and shares her life, and and she really is has been raised and redeemed from this. You're you ended up marrying an Orthodox man, which brought you into the Orthodox Church. You have a baby now, Mila, that just turned two. I mean, if you saw pictures, her Michaela shares a lot on her Instagram and on her um YouTube channel, but you see like before and afters of Michaela, and she's she's you've you look like a different person.

SPEAKER_01

Oh my gosh, like the demonic in my eyes before is so evident.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so now I don't know, just praise God for the for the transformation. And it really is a daily spiritual battle. Um I don't remember what it was I was going through. It was a few weeks ago. I'm in a better place now, but a few weeks ago I was struggling and I remember talking to my spiritual father, and he told me that I was gonna go through a period of time of proving to both myself and the demons that I'm not theirs anymore, because I had let them use me for so long. Um, and that they're still they still think they have a claim to me because I had such a deep, intimate relationship with them for so long. And so now I'm in a period of time of proving to them and to myself that I'm not theirs anymore, and I will obey God and endure the struggle and the daily spiritual warfare. Um I don't know. Can you hear that lawnmower?

SPEAKER_00

It's funny that you were you're talking about uh spiritual warfare in the moment that that's the only time I've heard the lawnmower, because I know the the lawn crew, of course, just started right when we were we started podcasting. That's the only time I've heard it as you say spiritual warfare and these. Isn't that annoying? This is this is the type of stuff that demons really do. They can do this, is it like that that they allow these little dominoes to fall to get to us, and what your spiritual father told you is profound. And I've heard similar advice from my spiritual father because you know, just like you, like my eyes used to be black, like I used to look crazy. I look at old pictures from when I was in the occult and I was like, I was smoking weed, like taking psychedelics, like doing like that. I channel for the Galactic Federation and like like literally like having demons jump into my body and stuff. And I I want to say, um, you said you didn't know if you were probably if you were possessed at the moment that those aliens kind of came in and talked to you. I don't I asked my spiritual father this about myself because they I literally mind melded as with these demons and they spoke through me. I was like, was I possessed? And he's like, no, it's really, really, really rare to be fully possessed. We had an element of possession, but I don't believe either one of us was fully possessed. I think that is very rare. Like, I think obviously that whoever is like has the Antichrist in them will be fully possessed, you know, probably a lot of these elites, and we'll we'll talk, this will be another bonus up. We'll put this on the bonus too, is where we talk more about possession and how it shows itself in the world. But you know, we were definitely like different people before when we were going when we were the demons. And sin it that's exactly what it is. The sin that you you do when you open yourself up, you give rights to part of your soul to these demons to get their magic. That's not free. You're selling your soul to the devil. And so when you get baptized, you are reborn in Christ, you are gods now fully, but the demons come at you as a new, um, I notice as a new Orthodox Christian. And I truly believe that this is as uh harsh as I'll get, but the Orthodoxy is the only true form of Christianity. I'm not saying there aren't people with good hearts in Protestant churches or the Catholic Church or even these other places in the world, or people that don't even know Christ, like they'll be judged by their heart and not the law. But the true salvation is found within the Orthodox Church. True healing is found in the Orthodox Church because the divine grace of God is still there through apostolic succession, it's unchanged and unbroken. So when you have that baptism, when you are reborn in Christ, you fully like you literally are a new creation. But the demons come at you. They did this to me too. And I'm still I'm only 10 months, eight months baptized, 10 months. You know, I'm brand, you're you've been Orthodox longer than me. And I have had a lot of the same kinds of sufferings and stuff, particularly through Lent, um, where these demons it was for me, it was suicide ideation where they would come into my head and try to get me to kill myself. And I've had like, as my spiritual father called it, like these kamikaze that will just drop into my head sometimes, and they're still trying to get to me, but they but they're further away now, but because we're not theirs anymore, we're Christ, we're gods, but they try to trick us. And that think of what happened to Jesus right after he was baptized. He went to the desert for 40 days, Satan tempted him and came after him. That's very, I think that's very normal. But um, and and so this leads us into where kind of we're we're getting at in our full conversation here about spiritual warfare. I think prior we saw it as these demons, like coming as a as a new Protestant Christian, and you you fell into the did you fall into the charismatics as well?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, that's that's a it's such a normal pipeline for new agers, ex-new agers or ex-occultists to to Christ to fall into the charismatics. What did you learn think spiritual warfare was when you were a new Christian? So we kind of talked about it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, sorry, glad yelling at demons to get out, and um I guess it was like I still saw how do I say I think because when I was a new ager, I so didn't believe in spiritual warfare at all. I then went through the next extreme of seeing or like when I was a new ager, I saw spiritual warfare as more like internal battles of like um my shadow work. I didn't see like external demons as being a real thing. So when I realized demons really did exist outside of me, like it wasn't me, like they also exist externally, then it became a very external thing in the charismatic movement of like yelling at them and like you know, get out in Jesus' name, and like this battle and not realizing how much of the daily spiritual warfare just happens like in the mind. Um I don't know if that makes sense how much no, it does.

SPEAKER_00

It does. I wanna I want it. I'm reading um this book, Saint Silawan, the Athenite, and it's so good. Saint Silawan endured a lot of suffering and spiritual warfare, and he talks about I love this part. He says, so it says fighting evil within. Silawan came to know experimentally from the experience of his own life that the field of a man's spiritual battle with evil, cosmic evil, is in his own heart, that the battlefield is in the mind. Yes. So we aren't really fighting external, like demons. Like we are, they're they're there, like God allows them. God's in charge of everything. Like we shouldn't be afraid of anything in this world, we should just fear God, truly. Yeah. Because God's like, think of the book of Job. All those deep like Satan came to God, had to get permission. There's a hierarchy where the demons have to ask God before they mess with us, and God allows it for our uh refinement and sanctification. And we aren't like, you know, like in the charismatics too, I was being taught to bind up spirits and cast them out and like yell, like you said, yell at them. And you see, like, it's like super bold, actually, because an actual Orthodox priest would be very hesitant to do an exorcism. And an exorcism prayer is like the softest, like, I mean, I don't know what it was like for you, but when I was baptized, like there's a little video I've posted where the exorcism prayer is just like this soft little prayer being done over me, like asking the demons to leave my heart. It's not like screaming and yelling, or or even like the movie The Exorcist and what's happening in the Catholic Church. Like, I don't even really think that's what it's actually like. Um, but we really truly are fighting in in the mind. And the battlefield is truly within in the mind.

SPEAKER_01

You said you had such a good point about bringing up Job and how uh the enemy, the evil one, came to him first, asked, came to God first, and said basically it had to ask permission before tormenting Job. And so now, in contrast, my in my Protestant life, in my charismatic Protestant life, it was more like demanding demons to leave in Jesus' name based on like an authority I thought I had in me. Now I just pray for God to have mercy on me when I feel a demonic spirit around, which is so different. It is a soft, quiet, Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me and save me. And it's so different than when I would get up and think I needed to be screaming at demons. So, like that's kind of how you can contrast how an Orthodox Christian would approach like a physical battle of seeing, like maybe feeling like a tangible evil around versus the daily battle of spiritual warfare in the mind versus a Protestant Christian's approach.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and even um the concept of evil is interesting from an orthodox perspective. Like I had always kind of wondered like, why did God create evil? Like, how what what kind of God would create such a bad world or allow this stuff to happen? But when I was reading the St. Silwan, he says God alone is absolute. Evil, which has no original essence, but is merely the resistance of the free creature to him that is before all ages to God, cannot be absolute. Therefore, evil in the literal sense does not and cannot exist. All evil affected by free beings must live like a parasite on the body of good. So basically, like God didn't create evil, like evil is just like this thing that clings to To us that we bring it in. Like, man, we have we're the ones that sinned in the Garden of Eden. That started with Adam and Eve. And sin, you know, death was not. I just kind of learned this, but death was not, God didn't create death. That came into the world because of the Garden of Eden. That's why when Jesus goes to the Garden of Gethsemane and he's like begging to God, like, please, I don't want this to happen. Part of it is because it's not natural. He was like, Why is this death going to happen? We didn't, why this was new to him, but he, you know, Jesus was fully God, fully human. So he was living this human experience as well. And so death came from sin, the separation from God. That's literally, you think about hell is actually not having God. Yeah. Think about not having how we know what it was like. I'm sure I know that when you came out of the occult, like they come after you. Like the demons, like they fight you hard, and you don't really have God yet. Like before I became Orthodox and had the Holy Spirit inside me, it was spirit, like these spiritual attacks were a lot worse. And so I feel like I do I did at one point in my life feel like I lived in hell before I had God. And so that is when I was sinning, I didn't have God, the separation that was created, that kind of spiritual death. And God wants to bring us back to Him through the sanctification and refinement of our sins to bring us closer to Him. And that's that's what heaven is, that's what paradise is, is being with God. And you said earlier the demons were trying to tell you that you are supposed to, you're gonna be a God, you know, like we're gonna make you a God. Well, we were created to be like God in his image, but it ha it doesn't happen intellectually. There isn't some magic spell that's done. It happens through suffering, through trials and tribulations in our God. Ontologically, we have to learn to be like God, that to imit to be it made in his image, to imitate his likeness.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, and that's that's through Christ, right? Like when you are in the new age and like Hindu sort of ideology, um it's more of like an ego, like I am powerful, I am, or like the women, I am a goddess. This like no humility whatsoever. But like you said, the suffering in Christ, like like he suffer like he did, suffer like the saints did, dying to yourself, to this world, that is what makes you more like God, not this inflated view of self, like the Hindu or New Age sort of approaches.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. And that what your spiritual father was telling you about how like the demons are trying to get you to feel like you're still theirs. And maybe I don't know if you've felt this in some of this suffering that you've been going through as a new Orthodox Christian. Do you ever feel like you've felt the withdrawal of grace from God? Like, God, have you abandoned me?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh, it's interesting because I explain that sometimes that it's like I came into the Lord's house and my life got really quiet. And before it was like all these experiences all the time, all these spiritual experiences, especially like, you know, before I came to Christ, I had all these spiritual experiences. And then in the part of my journey of coming to Christ, I felt like he had to get my attention. Um, so there was more of that like pursuit for my heart and showing me different things for the purpose of my salvation. Um, and then now that I am in his house, life does feel quieter sometimes, and I'm learning how to draw close and hear his still small voice. Um there's so many different thoughts I'm having on that as well. Like reading Father Sarah from Rose's book uh about orthodoxy and the religion of the future, it's like I had all these radical experiences when I first started coming to Christ, and you talked about like hell, that experience of hell being without God. And one of the things that did it was like the final tipping point of me accepting Jesus was I had a dream that I was in hell, and it was a recurring dream I had a couple times, and I remember this light showing up in this dark black abyss where I couldn't breathe. And through the center of this light, this sun-like light, came the face of Christ. And it wasn't like super crystal clear, it was like blurry, but I knew it was him. And when I woke up from that dream, I was like, I knew that he saved me, and that was my final hang up. Like I had started to believe that the Bible was true and that uh following the Bible could protect us from letting in demons. But then it was like the final hang-up I had was truly believing that Jesus was who he said he was, and so that dream helped me. But then here I am, all these years later, and I'm reading this Father Sarah from Rose book, and he's like pretty much saying like the true Orthodox saints and monks and those who like really strive after Christ and die to themselves, they are hesitant of every spiritual experience. And he even described one of these spiritual experiences, like this Christ coming through the center of the light in this book as a demonic experience. And it got me like, oh my gosh, like I can't like I was like beating myself up for a few days, like, was this a demonic experience? Actually, and I think the purpose of this is not like a one size fits all sort of application, but for Christians to know to be cautious of any spiritual experience because demons do love to masquerade as angels of light. But in that specific instance, the fruits of that spiritual experience were that it led me to Christ and to repentance and into humility. So there's different ways to sort of test those experiences and know, like, was this actually God or was this fallen angels? Yeah. And so forth. I think in my instance it was God drawing me to Him, but now at my place where I'm at in my spiritual walk, I am likely to be hesitant of any spiritual experience. Whereas back in the day I saw those. And so now life is quieter, and it's just this like long, faithful journey of following Christ, even if I never encounter anything spiritual ever again. That's like where the faith comes in.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so that's where I'm at now.

SPEAKER_00

Blessed are those that believe without seeing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Right? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I had, you know, my experience when Christ was coming to me, I had, you know, I was working as a psychic medium, and I actually had a vision of Christ come in, and I was repulsed by it because I didn't like Jesus. I hate, isn't it crazy? I hated Jesus. Like I got to see what the world is teaching people about Jesus. Like that was, but that also boomeranged me because I was like, oh my God, they they hate Christ. Like I started hating Christ. I made fun of Christians, I made fun of the what would Jesus do bracelets, all the stuff. Like I and I so this vision comes in, and it was quintessential Jesus with the tote, like the toga kind of and the sand, and I was like, oh, the sandals, and I had to tell my client, and I was like, uh the new age Jesus is here, it's the ascended master. I didn't, you know, but something happened to me. Like you were saying, it's like you take a look at the fruits of that. And the way my story went was, you know, I ended up giving my testimony online, it went viral. A lot of people were judging my conversion and saying that it wasn't real, that wasn't a real vision of Jesus, she's lying, and and it upset me, you know. I was like, but like I literally like became a Christian or like gave up everything, like stop the occult, stop my$200 an hour psychic medium job to follow Christ because something happened to me that was actually really hard for me to write in my book. Like the, you know, because it was like without words, like something like the Holy Spirit like punctured me. And I look back though, that was like gosh, five or six years ago, and I'm Orthodox now. Like, you want to tell me that wasn't from God? Like, you know, and and exactly, and you do need you're right. I'm glad you brought up you need to be careful about dreams and vision because I think it's called pro pre-lust, right? And it's this concept where you think you're ha having like all these visions and God's talking to you, and but at the same time, like I talked to a friend about that recently, and she taught has dreams all the time. And I was like, she's Protestant, and I was like, Well, you gotta be careful, your dreams. This is what the saints say. That night I had a dream, like I wasn't wanted to go to church the next day, but I couldn't make it. Like it was just I my church is far away, it's a long drive. I just couldn't do it, but I wanted to be there. It was a day for the Theotokos, I can't remember, but I had a dream that night after talking to my friend, where the priests from the church that I go to were marching down the street going, Christo's a nestie, and then everyone was going, Alethos and Nestie. It was like hundreds of people, and that was what the dream was. I woke up and I was like, I feel like the church was brought to be in my dream, and how could that have been demonic?

SPEAKER_01

Why would Jesus so it's like that uh that reel of Father Moses I shared where he's calling out all the God told me people, yeah, yeah, and so the comments went crazy where people are like, but God can talk to us, God does talk to us, the Holy Spirit convicts us and talks to us, and it's like, yes, that's true, but there's also such an abuse of this and such possibility of spiritual delusion that we just have to be cautious and question everything. Um it's better to question everything than than to just like to be spiritually deceived and think it was a but, like you said, like it was church, like what was there was nothing it was bad about that.

SPEAKER_00

It was kind of funny, and it was just like okay, God, you work in mysterious ways.

SPEAKER_01

Like, you know, there's a we can't fully understand and also mystery and Orthodox Christians were open to the mystery of some things mystery like that. But can I share one example of like you gave a yeah, you gave an example of a dream that like does sound like it was from God. I think I told you about the girl, the Protestant friend I used to have. Um she unfollowed me on everything. I think because I I shared about this what she said to me. Um she reached out to me and told me she kept having dreams that I was like mean to my baby and that I was demonically possessed, and that her and her fiance needed to deliver me from demons. Um so I pushed back on that, you know, and I didn't just accept that as God's truth just because she had a dream of that. And that is an instance in which I think she is under spiritual delusion and experiencing pre-lust, where she thinks these are revelations from God and it's inflating her ego of like, I need to deliver you. And also, you know, a lot of Protestants think that Orthodox Christians we've like fallen in, fallen away from God, or they have these like misconceptions about the Orthodox Church, and they think we've joined like we're possessed by the spirit of religion, and they don't really understand what the Orthodox Church is. So I think all of that was sort of operating in her subconscious, leading to these dreams that I'm possessed by demons, and then she thinks it's a message from God, and that's a prime example of spiritual delusion.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely. I I I had Protestants tell me that my old co-host from the Not So Secret Society podcast said that her her spiritual advisor or her spiritual mentor, who was some woman from a charismatic church in Africa, was telling her that there were demons around me and that like they had these messages for me and I needed to be delivered from it and all this stuff. And and actually, you know, there probably were demons around me to be honest. I'll just snare and tell her that. But like, why does God I was starting to think like, why does God keep giving her messages to tell me? Does he not want to come and claim me?

SPEAKER_01

Like that was kind of the first red flag. Oh, he's telling you messages to tell me. Like, I think Oh, are you a Pope?

SPEAKER_00

Are you a Pope? Okay, do we know what happened with the Pope?

SPEAKER_01

That started Are you my spiritual father now? Like, no, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's why I'm glad that we've brought up spiritual father a few times. And I I don't know um how many people in the Orthodox Church actually have spiritual fathers. I would be curious if there's like a statistic because I I like numbers and I'm just curious. But that was one of the that was the first thing that I did. I actually, as a catechumen, asked one of the priests um where I go to church uh if he would be my spiritual father. He was catechizing me and he laughed and he was like, No, there's only one spiritual father here. It's it's the Yuronda of the monastery that I go to. And so when I became baptized, I asked the Yuronda to be my spiritual father at our first meeting. I was the first thing I asked, and he just goes, Yes. And I was, I I just knew, of course, I started crying, and I uh I I love my spiritual father so much. I I can't imagine not having a spiritual father because I was in so much delusion and I know I can fall into delusion and I have so much healing to do, and I can't, as a convert, like navigating this create like people do not. I know when Michaela and I are talking online, but please you can't get all of your information from YouTube and the internet. You just can't. It's just a dangerous battleground on there. Yeah, but we need spiritual fathers to confess to so they can pray for us, so we can go and ask them any questions. I mean, like we both have been through a lot of counseling in our lives, like traditional counseling. And what was always, you know, going to a spiritual father is kind of like talking to a counselor, but you get absolution of your sins at the end, and you have these holy prayers. Um, how how has having a spiritual father changed your life?

SPEAKER_01

It's so funny. Someone just asked me a question on one of my recent like Easter vlogs. They're like, what's the difference between a parish priest and a spiritual father? And I think for many people, their parish priest probably is their spiritual father who they confess to. I think that's probably pretty common. Um, but when you're someone like us who like you've been through so much, so much spiritual trauma and all this, like, you know, into the occult, like you really need to have someone that like you connect with deeply at a soul level.

SPEAKER_00

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So I, you know, I recently got a spiritual father. Um, I guess it was a couple months ago now. And it's so interesting. I remember just reaching out to him and telling him that I felt like an orphan in the world. Yeah. And I was feeling so emotional. It's so funny. Whenever I talk to him, I just like sob, which I think is one of the key things.

SPEAKER_00

You told me that there's a I literally every time I see my spiritual father, I sit down in front of him and I just start crying and I go, I'm sorry. I was like, I don't even know why. I'm just like something about I see him in church. Sometimes he comes out and I start crying, or I walk up to him, and I just I was getting unction oil, the holy unction, and I started crying, getting holy unction oil. And I'm like, you're trying, they're like trying to put the unction oil on me. And I'm just like, tears are literally hitting the ground.

SPEAKER_01

Like, yeah, they just and that's another thing we know in orthodoxy, you can't trust every tear, but like those tears I think are like you know, grace of God.

SPEAKER_00

I think this is one of my crosses, is crying.

SPEAKER_01

Oh, but it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_00

It's a yeah, actually, St. Silomon was talking, it's in the book. I've I'm gonna ask my spiritual father about it, actually. But um, and you didn't have a really close relationship with your actual biological father. So that's I feel like having a spiritual father is even more profound for you too, because you had a big role.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, and now it's like God blessed me with such a loving spiritual father that he after I told him this, he of course like called me right away. He became a spiritual father. We started talking. I shared my whole life story with him. And then it was like a couple weeks, maybe even I don't know, I lose track of time, but a couple months, maybe even later, he messaged me and was like, you know, I was rereading our emails and I was reminded that you said you felt like an orphan. And he said, I just want to like be a father-like figure for you and treat you like you would you were my actual daughter. And so now he like checks in on me all the time.

SPEAKER_00

I could cry. Like it's so sweet.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, he asks me just I don't know, he asked us how our our Easter went, and then he FaceTimed us, and he was driving in his truck, and me and my husband are talking to him, the baby's running around, and we have this like close relationship now. It's such a blessing, and now it's like you have these experiences or these questions or these spiritual wars. Yes, we know to run everything by our spiritual father, a so they can be praying for us, and B, so they can guide us through it, so we're not spiritually deceived and in delusion.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I mean, if you have questions about like fasting, because fasting's not the same for everybody, and fasting's not just about food, like fasting can be from fasting from what we put into our eyes, into our ears, and the things in our life, and so everybody's unique, everybody's getting unique medicine. That's something that I've learned as I've become orthodox and entered the the church Christ church, is like we're like in before it was like, you know, in the new age, like you said, you're having ego deaths and like um trying to ascend to your highest self and like literally practicing magic to try to like heal and taking psychedelics. And then, you know, in the Protestant kind of view, I feel like it was just like I needed to be sinless perfection, like I needed to be great, like I couldn't do anything wrong. I just I I I'm I'm Christ now, so I have to be this perfect way. Now in the Orthodox Church, I'm realizing like what uh El Elder Ephraim says, he says, um, when I see or hear that someone lives without afflictions and prospers according to all his desires, I considered this to be abandonment by God. No one has ever been saved in the comfort and without in comfort and without trials. Thus it follows that if we also bear trials, we should rejoice, for thus walked all those who were saved. And since we want to be saved too, there is no other road but afflictions. So in the Orthodox Church, it's like, no, you you be yourself and you allow God to ontologically change you through these trials, and that's the true spiritual warfare. And it's battling our passions, and which is like the the things that our our flesh desires, and then there's battling the demons, which do come in to help kind of amplify the things that we need to see because we all have we're broke, we're broken inside, and none of it we're full of pride, and like like I fell on my I've been trying to run on my treadmill. I fell on my treadmill, so stupid. I fell on my treadmill, like I stepped on it when it was on five miles an hour, fell to the ground, thought I broke my ankle. I have a issue, a physical issue where I bleed really easily, and my under my foot started covering with blood, like underneath the skin of my foot. And I started, I what did I do? I texted my spiritual father right away. I sent him a picture and I said, please pray for me. And I kid you not. Five minutes later, the blood was gone.

SPEAKER_01

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

And I was walking that afternoon. So, spiritual fathers, like they work miracles for us, like that that is very important, but we can't avoid these trials and tribulations, right?

SPEAKER_01

I love that you mentioned the the passions, and you know, that being one of the things that the demons can inflame in us. Like it's like the one element is the demons, and the other element is our own passions, but yes, they work hand in hand of like the demons can trigger, they know what our weaknesses are and what we're inclined, like what our flesh is inclined towards. Yep. Um, and I also love that you brought up the Protestant, like sinless perfection, because that was something that really stressed me out being like a new Christian and on the internet, yeah, like sharing my testimony. I remember feeling like so all these Christians are just like perfect now. Like you don't struggle, like you don't still like have memories or like these passions that come up, or like desires that like we know that demons can put thoughts in our mind, and like we have to struggle against them all the time, and the flesh still remembers its old sins and different things. Um becoming an Orthodox freed me from that pressure of sinless perfection. And I love seeing like the Orthodox people who even like I think Nick does this. I talk about it like Nick, he posts pictures like smoking cigarettes, and I'm like, it's like I feel like a lot of Orthodox people do that. Like, they're not coming online trying to pretend that, like, oh, I'm sinless perfection now. It's like, yeah, I'm still a messed up human. Like, Lord Jesus Christ, have mercy on me.

SPEAKER_00

Pray for me, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, that is so freeing. I feel like that's more the mentality of an Orthodox Christian.

SPEAKER_00

I started reading St. Isaac the Syrian's um homilies, and the first one talks a lot about um how we change, and there's this concept of you know, the sinless perfection, which is like you're just changed, you're Christ now, you be perfect. Like, you know, you're gonna be blessed with abundance, and God's gonna bless you with the perfect marriage and the perfect da-da-da. Perfect. That's that's you're perfect now. But then there's no, there's where we actually just change ontologically, naturally, where like you don't want to do that sin anymore because it bothers you. It actually bothers you, so you don't want to do it, or you're drawn to like maybe you keep going back to that problem, but and you slip and you fall. Um, but each time you slip a little less, but you have to slip and fall. Like Elder Ephraim actually says in his book Um Uh uh Uh Councils from the Holy Mountain, that when you have a virtue that goes away, like or you have a passion that goes away really quickly, it probably will come back really quickly. Um, so the longer you fight it, the harder you fight it, that's like that's a bigger, more profound change. So we're supposed to actually fight things, things aren't supposed to just go away. Like that, yes, God can miraculously make things go away. I stopped smoking weed after I was baptized. The day I was baptized, I've smoked weed every day for like my whole life. And um, I did have a small stint though when I was a Protestant where I was pressured into quitting because I felt like I had to be sinless perfection. So I stopped doing it. But it was not, I think it was demons helping me before. Like I actually, even when I used like the first time I went through Lent as a catechumen, I fasted for 33 days. I didn't eat until dinner for 33 days, and I was like, Oh, look at me. I'm gonna take the fast, even like, oh my god. And I talked to a priest and he's like, Yeah, demons were helping you. But he's like, Eat an egg, that was my spiritual father who made me eat an egg. I'm I know I have to be careful to not be a Pharisee. It and then you don't want to be because think of the story of the publican and the Pharisee. We want to be the God help me, I'm broken. God help me, I'm broken. I'm perfect. I do everything right. No, the purpose of the fast even isn't to do it completely right. You're supposed to fall because you know what, Michaela? Without death, there is no resurrection. Without being sick, you can't be healed.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. I know I love that. And I love to, you know, I we think like maybe people know what we're talking about sometimes. And sometimes I've I've learned to like overexplain a little. You talked about like struggling against the passions and how like the longer you struggle, the stronger you are. Uh the ladder of the divine ascent, where you overcome the passions by growing in their opposing virtues. So you talked about, you know, struggling over the span of our lifetime. And I think that is one of the best ways like to overcome the passions, is to, and I don't know like how to, I'm trying to think of like an example. Um, I guess for me, like lust was a big thing for me, replacing that with divine love and like this void I had of like trying to fill with like counterfeit love and intimacy, and replacing that by growing in God's love and divine love.

SPEAKER_00

That's full. No, I just the um I wish I had the Orthodox calendar in front of me today because there was a quote, I can't remember which saint it was, but the concept that he was saying was there's two ways to salvation. One through blood and suffering, and that would be like with your issue of lust, like probably slipping and just continuing, like after your baptism, like you know, going and being promiscuous and losing that that purity and virginity and like having that awful struggle. But you chose to get married right away with your husband. So you chose the other path, which is the soft kind of like there's so there's a there's like the difficult, like bloodshed, like path to salvation that's hard and with your trials, and then there's the soft, kinder path to salvation, too, as he talks about, and so you chose to listen to God and to follow, you know, to be in a godly marriage and to be able to experience lust in a god, you know, in a godly way or through with your husband the way it was always meant to be. So I I I like that you bring up that example.

SPEAKER_01

I heard this quote once that said, um, and this maybe is a Protestant quote because it's like the spirit of lust doesn't care about a wedding ring.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so I still continue to deeply struggle even being married. Maybe this is more like behind the scenes.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll save that. We'll save that story for the behind the scenes. Yeah. Um, no, no, I mean it like for me, I uh sometimes I think about you know, psychedelics. Like I just like for uh in smoking weed and all that, and I I have to, there are times where I I'll just be like I think like I just want to escape. Like I realize that I quit, like when I quit smoking weed, it was all glory to God. That was a miraculous gift he gave me. I worry that he's gonna take that grace away and I'm gonna slip up and smoke weed again or take psychedelics. That scares me, but I have to pray, and I have the prayers of my spiritual father helping me right now. But I realized that I was doing that to escape. Yep. So now I'm sober-minded, and it's literally the hardest thing ever to not have that old vice anymore. It's it's this is so like, but that's that's what St. Paul says. We're supposed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling, like we're supposed to run this race like a marathon, like an athlete. And that's because what you were saying about like practicing the virtues to overcome the passions, it's like lifting weights, spiritual weight. You get stronger. If you just do it once and it just goes away, and you're sinless perfectionism and everything's perfect with you now. What is happening to your soul? Like, truly, like it's getting stronger, or if you have if you God God isn't looking for perfection as St. Paisio says, He's looking for our effort. So just keep making that and keep lifting the weight, and you get stronger.

SPEAKER_01

My thoughts with that too is like, are people BSing, or is it there's this account, the Orthodox Women's Ministry, they posted a carousel the other day. I loved it. It was about healing, like how you heal in the Orthodox Church. And I had them collab it, so it's on my page too. Um, but it talked about the stages of healing, and like step one is like you're a lost soul, you don't know God, um, you're just out there wandering in pain. Step two is you come to know Christ. And it was like, then it was like maybe you I don't know if it was like then straight to orthodoxy, but next it's like the honeymoon phase. Like you're you're in this honeymoon phase. And sometimes I think the Protestants online, they're just in this maybe honeymoon phase with God, but then so like it does feel like maybe the sinless perfection is real and authentic for them and their experience at that time. But then what happens after the honeymoon phase?

SPEAKER_00

The withdrawal of grace. And you then then you have to really see so Saint Silwan. I want to read this. I uh it's talking about the withdrawal from grace. Objectively, it is not the complete withdrawal of grace, but subjectively, the soul experiences even the smallest reduction of grace as abandonment by God. So I had um I had an interview with Jay Dyer a couple months ago. I'm not like I'm not gonna talk about anything controversial, but I'm gonna bring this up for a moment and I'm not gonna talk about what happened in the interview. But he did ask, he was coming at me about did I know what subjective versus objective was? And I'll be honest, I didn't. Like, I'm not I'm not that smart. And so I had to look it up and figure it out. And when I was reading this by St. Silomon, I was like, I got it. I really Nick was trying to teach to me to give me examples because Nick's super smart. And I was like, Nick, I need I was like a fool. He made fun, Jay made fun of me online, like saying I didn't know this, I need to know this. Thank you, Jay. God bless you, because now I know. Objectively is what like God, so God, when you feel like the grace of God is removed from you, it's objectively always there. God can't go away. God is at always, but subjectively, it feels like it is gone. In your experience, it feels like it's gone. So even those Protestants that say, I'm with God all the time, subjectively, I'm with God all the time. Like objectively, God's always there, right? But they feel like they have him all the time. But I think that they're kind of worshiping themselves and their own version of God is a subjective thing. But St. Silwan talks about this how objectively God is always there, but subjectively, it feels like he's gone in your experience. And this, and when he describes Adam's inconsolable grief, his weeping when he was driven from paradise, he is in fact speaking of his own sorrow after losing grace. He talks about how think of how Adam subjectively felt when God kicked him out of the Garden of Eden. And he had God, he was objectively God's always there, but he had God, he was with God, and then all of a sudden he didn't. Can you imagine? We get these little moments like where we feel God leaving. Why does he do that? So we can because we need that distance, we need that pain to remember how amazing it is to have God. Do you kind of get what I'm saying? Like, we wouldn't, would we really appreciate what a cake tastes like if we don't get to eat a cake and then have it taken away? Then you desire it, or like you, you know, you like so God pulls away his grace, but he's always there, but subjectively we don't feel it. Um, and Adam, you think about this in the Garden of Eden, think about how Adam must have felt. Like Adam literally, Adam and Eve were with God all the time, like he was speaking to them. He were they were together all the time, and then all of a sudden he was gone. And we've all felt that. Not only that, Adam was the first person in Hades, right? If he was the first one to die, so when God, Adam rejoiced when Christ harrowed Hades, he had to die to go into Hades to bring the light where the shine where the darkness, where where the light shineth the darkness is no more. That reminds me of that dream you had where you literally oh I have chills. Like that, I literally when you were explaining, I was like, it was like you were in Hades, but God comes and brings the light there, and God, the uncontainable, could not like so God is objective, like he's there, he hell couldn't contain him.

SPEAKER_01

And I feel like too, like I've heard different. I don't I'm bad at quoting Saints. Like, I don't remember names, I don't remember song names, I don't remember celebrity names, like I don't remember names, but there's a maybe it was Saint Joseph the Hesieh that talked about um how God's grace ebbs and flows, like the tide and comes in and out. Yeah, and so it'll like if right now you're struggling, fear not, because God's grace will return. And if right now you're doing amazing, glory to God, his grace is with you. Um, I pulled up that carousel real quick because I didn't want to butcher it about healing in the Orthodox Church and like kind of what the next step is and where I feel like maybe Protestants are, not to like overgeneralize, but so one, I was talking about like the spiritual desert and wilderness phase, have not yet seeked God nor his church. Uh, step two is the turnkey event awakening. Person makes change looking to God and his church for direction and stability. So this is, I guess this is like coming into the Orthodox Church, you know. Step three is the entry honeymoon phase, finds hope and refuge in the church, baptized and purified in the image of God. Step four, birth pangs and communion with God, suffering and spiritual warfare unfolds, looks to Christ for identity and purpose with the guidance of the church and spiritual father, rebuilds towards Christ's likeness to actively heal and restore, self-examining prayer and synergia, humility, repentance, love, forgiveness, self-emptying, etc., are ultimately the way to heal. And then step four or one, two, three, four, step five, they labeled it weird, but it says as purification, illumination, and deification. It is repeated throughout suffering and results in deep healing. Very that I love that post. I loved it. I loved it. It's because now it's like, okay, I'm through the honeymoon phase. Like I remember and I try to always remind myself of the honeymoon phase when I do despair and I do feel far from God's grace that like he is real and he I encountered him and he brought me home to him, and he's still here, even if I don't feel him subjectively, like you're talking about. Um, but now we're in this process of suffering and like walking it out and enduring the warfare, um, and trying to have joy and some fun amidst of that. Count it all joy.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I never really understood that. Like your trials and tri count it all joy, your trials and tribulations teach you patience, right? And James and yesterday was the Apostle James feast day. Yeah. And uh yeah, like I didn't really understand, like, I was just like, I love that you bring up this honeymoon phase, like how you have that, because I had that too, and it was like the highest point in my life, like coming to I was like, this is the answer I was always looking for because I was I am and was even more so broken, all I wanted to heal. That was why I was doing the psychedelics and the new age stuff was all to heal. That's why I started following Christ. I wanted to heal because I've always had such mental problems in my head. That's been the battle. I really get like Sarah from Rose says, the trials of our generation are gonna be psychological. Like the martyrs of our generation are gonna be experiencing a lot of psychological stuff. And that, like, you know, the battlefield is in the mind, like Saint St. Silomon says, the evil is in our hearts. Um and uh so like, but having that grace or that honeymoon period end, like I didn't really get that that was gonna happen. Like when you're a catechumen and I you're purified so that you can commune with Christ, you know? And then you're baptized, and it's like, wow, I was like, I did it, and then this is great. And then all of a sudden, it was like instantly though for me, like the suffering started. Like I I had nightmares for 40 days after being baptized, really bad nightmares. And I would get sick after communing and get migraines, and like the demons, they uh they I gave a lot of rights over to them, you know, and that's why speaking out about the occult in the new age and the dangers of it is so important because it's not a joke. This is not just pulling tarot cards and yoking yourself with demons, you're giving rights of your soul away. And we all have one path to go. The path is narrow, fewer will find it, and there is truly one path to true healing, and that's through Christ and got with God. And you're gonna need a lot of extra healing coming out of the occult in the new age, it's different than someone who's cradle docs. Like you you've married a cradle doc. You're so you have an God also gave you an amazing father for your your child and husband for you. And uh, he's cradle docs. So, do you think like he doesn't get a lot of what I talk about? I was gonna ask, I was like, yeah, I wanted to ask.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, interesting. He does he hasn't seen, and sometimes that you know, you talk about like praying for God's strength to not go back to weed or psychedelics or anything, like that you keep his grace in those those areas. Sometimes I'm like, dang, like I just wish he would have seen what I saw. And then I'm like, but he wouldn't have like he doesn't have to, like God protected him from that. Like, like it's good he didn't see the demonic side of things, but sometimes I wish that he had, just so like we could bond about that and like know the same depths. But then I'm like, but there's like also like the good spiritual depths that we can go into, like we can go into the holy side. So I just try to grow in that with him, like grow in the life of Christ and in the church with him, um, which is our journey for the rest of our lives. So I yeah, I know I've signed up for that.

SPEAKER_00

Well, Michaela, we've hit an hour and we're gonna probably sum up this conversation and then do a little bonus chat that we've been talking about with more of the controversial, well, deeper topics on here. But before we leave, I just want to show. I feel like Michaela is very close with the Mother Mary, and I am too the Theotokos. I want to show my icon because I like to show icons. Um, this is my icon that I inherited that I feel like is a miracle-working icon in my life. Um, it is the Our Mother Perpetual Help, and I inherited this from my great-grandmother who came from Russia. And I also want to show just the Ivoryn icon, which is the Hawaii Ivoryn icon, which is a miraculous icon of the Virgin Mary that began exuding myrrh in 2007. And it's had a lot, it's got have you seen that? It came on tour last year, and that's where I got this. You have yes, and does it have did you went and visited it and did you get myrrh on yours? No, Father Photius just sent me this. I guarantee you it has myrrh on it. I bet it has myrrh from the Hawaii Ivor and icon. That is amazing. Oh, and um, and I want to show this is the air I uh our uh Theotokos of Arizona, which is where Elder Ephraim um is, you know, buried. That's his monastery. And then I want to show one more, and I'll show the rest of my icons of Mary in our little chat because I I told her I want to do a show and tell of icons. The uh Mother Mary with the belt of the Panagia, according to Christian tradition, the Virgin Mary's belt, known as the girdle of Thomas, was left behind as a relic and a sign of her earthly life. The legend states that when Mary was assumed into heaven, she dropped the belt to St. Thomas the Apostle as proof of her ascension, as she had as he had missed the event and needed physical evidence to believe it. Isn't that funny? Thomas did all this physical evidence. And um, I I actually the belt is kept at Vadopeti Monastery on Mount Athos, and I have a little piece of a ribbon that was consecrated on it in my cross that I wear. So it's nice to, you know, this is like a releliquary cross where you take off the bottom and can put little relics in there. And um, anyways, so we'll talk more, we'll show more icons, you know. You have some to show too in our bonus channel.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I love that I love that you brought that up, like the godly miracles and the godly sight. Like, there's so much we have yet to experience in Christ.

SPEAKER_00

I uh yes, and that's it, that's what the Orthodox Church has these relics and believes in these relics for healing. Um, that there is a mat a mystical aspect to Christ. I mean, Protestants will come at you and be like, oh, like I've had totally have people, of course, she went into Orthodox. She came out of the occult. It's like, you guys, no, I went to the real church, the true church. And PS is your heart beating? Were you birthed like out of your mother? Like, do you walk? These are miracles. These are mystical, everyday things. Like, I just, you know, God is miraculous. Like every moment that we are alive is miraculous. Every day God gives us is a miracle that we should thank him for because he gave us another day to repent, to fight our passions, and to have our soul sanctified so we can become more in the likeness of Christ, so we can be with him when our soul, our psyche, which comes from the word kind of breath, returns to God because we are the breath of God. So when we return to him, we come back to him for those who love him. It feels heavenly for those who don't. It burns like hell.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. All right. Thank you, Michaela, for chatting with me. And everybody, if you want to find this bonus chat, it'll be in two places on Michaela's YouTube. You can sign up for her membership. She does bonus chats, she gives you more personal insight into her life. And she also has that 12-part now series on the new age and coming out of the occult and great information for both Orthodox, because a lot of Orthodox don't realize the dangers of these things and they fall into it and you don't want to. Stay cradled, stay pure. And it's good for people coming out of the occult in the new age and questioning how to heal, how to actually heal. And then the other place you can find is if you want to sign up for the friendship membership, I'll have the bonus chat in there with a lot of other schizo chats that I give as well. Conspiracy stuff slash candid care chats. All right.

SPEAKER_01

Any last words? Thank you so much, Cara. No, I'm excited to keep chatting. The baby's still sleeping. So I've loved this conversation. Thank you for having me. I I feel like there's so much more to even talk about like we should do this more often.

SPEAKER_00

I think, you know, they're having a female voice like this in Orthodoxy, and we're new converts. We're not trying to say we're teachers, that we have all the right answers. We're just sharing our stories as converts because a lot of people are coming to the Orthodox Church. There's gonna be a wave of it. It's probably it's just that snow there's going to be. And we just want to share, you know, what we're going through and what it's like. And it's good to have I I love, there's a lot of good female voices out there too, as well. But I happen to know Michaela, so it's nice to get together like this and chat.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally agree. Thanks for having me. Thank you for coming.