Our Emotional Source Code w/ Dov Baron

🤔 OUR EMOTIONAL SOURCE CODE

 Life’s greatest lessons are most often Forged in Hardship and Adversity. But, to reach our full potential, we have to Dive Deeper into our own Identity. Therefore, tune into this impactful episode and discover Your Emotional Source Code, Understand Yourself and Others more Deeply, and Unlock your Full Leadership Potential. 

 👉 What We Discuss with Dov:

⁃       Three Igniters of Deep Curiosity

⁃       What More is there Beyond this Life

⁃       Our Emotional Source Code

🌟 About Dov Baron:

Dov Baron has been named twice to the list of the world’s Top 30 Global Leadership Gurus and Inc. Magazine’s Top 100 Leadership Speakers. He has presented to companies and organizations around the world including the United Nations, The Department of State, The World Management Forum in Iran, the US Air Force, and the famed Servant Leadership Institute.

Dov’s focus on Human Behavior and Neuroscience has made him the leading authority on Emotional Source Code and the Anatomy of Meaning. 

Dov is also the bestselling author of One Red Thread and Fiercely Loyal: How High Performing Companies Develop and Retain Top Talent.

🔥 Check out Robin’s FREE “Keys to Communication” Course:
 https://robin-s-school-f428.thinkific.com/courses/keys-to-communication

 
🙏  Thanks, Dov! Reach out, connect, and follow Dov across his social platforms:

-       LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dovbaron/

-       Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheDovBaron

-       Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dovbaronleadership/

-       Website: http://dovbaron.com

-       YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTVH_F-eqUGGLD4ap-rJE-A/featured

😃 Resources mentioned in the podcast:

 -       James Burke Podcast with Dov

-       The Cure for Hate: https://www.amazon.com/Cure-Hate-Supremacists-Extremism-Compassion/dp/1551527693/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2B2L9DYPV8BT&keywords=the+cure+for+hate&qid=1665780267&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIwLjQxIiwicXNhIjoiMC4zNyIsInFzcCI6IjAuNzgifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=the+cure+for+hate%2Caps%2C74&sr=8-1

-       Vladimir Putin’s Emotional Source Code: http://dovbaron.com

-       Dov’s Best Selling Books: https://www.dovbaron.com/podcasts-2/

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:06

Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, former US Marine, Spy recruiter, bestselling author, and trust expert. This episode of the Forged by Trust podcast is brought to you by my free Keys to Communication course. Each of us craves psychological comfort, healthy relationships and being valued by others. But most of us struggle with the communication skills We need to provide those gifts to others. Therefore, I created this 40 minute free course to provide you the four pillars to great communication you need to start your journey to forging trust for every aspect of your life, both personal and professional. Coming up next on the Forged By Trust Podcast.

Dov: 0:47

And he turns around and comes back and he crouches down, puts his hand on one shoulder, ruffles my hair, puts the other hand on my shoulder, and he says, I'm gonna go now. You are the men of the house now. So right there, my childhood is gone. This is a fraction, a fract, a fraction of a fractal of, of something. So is there more? I don't know how there couldn't be. And then I realized through this work that behavior is driven by beliefs. But beliefs are driven by identity. People will not do things that is in conflict with their identity. We try to do all this smart, intelligent, logical stuff. It doesn't work. Human beings are emotional first, not second. First.

Robin: 2:03

Today's episode, Our Emotional Source Code is with a close friend, mentor, and guide, a world acclaimed and bestselling author, Dov Baron. Dov Baron has been named twice to the list of World's top 30 global leadership gurus and Inc. Magazines, top 100 leadership speakers. He has presented to companies and organizations around the world, including the United Nations, the Department of State, the World Management Forum in Iran, the US Air Force and the famed Servant Leadership Institute. Dov's focus on human behavior and neuroscience has made him the leading authority on emotional source code and the anatomy of meaning. More about those things. At www.dovbaron.com. Dov is also the best selling author of One Red Thread and Fiercely Loyal: How High Performing Companies Develop and Retain Top Talent. During today's episode, we talk about three igniters of curiosity. What more is there beyond this life, Vladimir Putin and the emotional source code and so much more.

Dov: 3:12

Good morning, sir.

Robin: 3:14

Friend, mentor, guide, brother. How are you?

Dov: 3:18

Well, it's very kind. Me. I'm good, mate. How are you?

Robin: 3:21

I'm fantastic. I've been so looking forward to this just because I have so many as everyday passes and you anticipate a, a great conversation, more questions enter your mind. And so with that, I love that you have the stay curious right there because that's one of the areas I want to dive deeper on. You know, we're calling the episode obviously Our Emotional Source Code because that is your, your latest. And it, it's so easy to see how everything you do flows into that. And so talking about the flow, I love, as you know, back stories. And so if we could start there, because I would love to try to understand Dov today and how it all originated and where really where that curiosity came from. Because this is, it's an, it's an amazing area of the human existence that you tapped into really early, it's definitely a resounding overtone of the most successful people in the world are the ones that are curious and also the most beloved. So Dove, start us out. Where'd you grow up and what was that like for you?

Dov: 4:23

I grew up in northern England. That's where I was born surrounded by addiction, violence, crime, all the, all the lovely stuff that happens in a ghetto.

Robin: 4:35

Addiction, addiction at home, or addiction around.

Dov: 4:37

Addiction at home and around me. Okay, so addiction at home and around me. My father left when I was seven left my mom and me and my siblings. My mom ha was severely depressed. I think she was depressed before my father left, but my father didn't help with that. You know using my mom as a punching bag doesn't usually bring people's spirits up. So he left when I was seven. My mom worked multiple jobs to try and keep food on the table and electricity. I can remember feeding the electric meter because there was no power back in those days. You put a coin in and trying to scramble to find a penny. It was a penny to put into the electric meter. So I grew up around all those kinds of things. My dad left us, I said when I was seven, and he. kneeled down. I, I came down the stairs and I could see the, the hallway and the light at the end of the hallway to, to the street. And my father's silhouette was blocking the light. My father was over six feet and he was a big lad, and I'm this little boy. Seven come down the stairs and I see my dad and I go, Dad, Dad. I could feel the panic. And he turns around and comes back and he crouches down, puts his hand on one shoulder, ruffles my hair, puts the other hand on my shoulder, is interesting because it's almost like he's knighting me and he says, I'm gonna go now. You are the men of the house now. So right there, my childhood is gone. I've now got this massive weight as a seven year old on how I'm supposed to be a, an adult, I gotta go back in, turn around, go back inside, take care of my depressed mother and of my siblings, who were all younger than me. So that was the, the, the place of birth. And really the, the end of my childhood was at that point, later on came stepfathers and all kinds of complications.

Robin: 6:29

Did you feel fearful at that point?

Dov: 6:31

Oh, terrified. What did you do? It was completely overwhelming. I now know, because of all the therapy and work that I've done on myself, that that was the birth of anxiety, right? But it was also the birth of bravado. So I couldn't afford to look anxious or upset. I, my mom was constantly that, so I needed to take care of her. I couldn't let my younger siblings know that, that the ship was sinking. So I had to look like I had it all together in a bag of chips. But the truth was, I was terrified. I said to my mother in the last few years before she died, I, I sat with her and I said, Do you know that I was terrified, most of my child? And she goes, Well, all kids get scared. I go, Her, Excuse me. That's not true. Number one. And number two, I didn't say scared. I said terrified. Right? Terrified. I was terrified. Lot of time. And people go, Well, you're so confident now. Yeah. That's, that's a journey. That's not, that's not, Oh, I was born with that in my dna. I was terrified.

Robin: 7:35

What was the next step? Like how did you survive, you know, psychologically?

Dov: 7:43

Well, it was fascinating because my, my dad had a brother who was close to us. Steve close to us for about another, and he stuck around for maybe a couple of months afterwards. Not much, cuz he is, it was his big brother, my dad, and Right. He was afraid of him. But my uncle came over and, and he would see me punching my knees, right? Like literally punching my knees. And he'd say, Why are you doing that? And I'd go, I'm in pain. And I still to this day, stress shows up in my knees and my wife will see me pump on them, and it's just to get the blood flow in there. Right. And that was stress in my body, Right? Stress in my body at seven years old and just trying to get it to move. Right. And I felt no relief from that stress until maybe initially my mom had a boyfriend slash stepdad for me who didn't last very long. And then another one came along and it was wonderful because we were so poor. I mean, we didn't have food. Right, Right. You know, there was no food, there was no soap, there was no money for the electric meter. You know, we tied newspapers in knots to make a fire in the winter. Yep. So, you know, it was very, very poor. And then suddenly my mom met this guy, so now she's got four kids. She meets this guy who seems like Prince Charming. He's, you know, he brings my mom Chanel blouses and flowers and brings home chests full of food. And so we're eating. I mean, it's like, Oh my God. And he's, he's the, he's the white knight. I mean, you know, he loves my mom. He's telling her she's beautiful. She's never had that. My father used to just knuckle her and until she was stupid and ugly. And then, and, and now we're eating and everybody's like, Oh my God. What a wonderful man. Well, guess what? He was a pedophile and he was running a pedophile ring. So of course he was a good, good guy for taking on a family with four kids, Right. Worked out well for him and his mates. So, you know, so there was then that stress on top of all that, on top of everything else. And he was an alcoholic, pedophile, sex addict. So he had put all that together and he was a very functional alcoholic, but he was still an alcoholic. And you know, my mom was certainly not gonna get rid of him. She knew what was, I believe my sister, and I believe he, she knew what was going on, but she was not gonna get rid of him. How could she? She was working three jobs and we were starving to death. So she, you know, she put up with it. Any

Robin: 10:06

idea what, what kind of trauma your mother experienced in her life to have to make the choices that she wound up making?

Dov: 10:14

Oh, absolutely. I mean, you, you know that this is my entire background is the understanding of the psychology of what builds, builds a human being. Of course. You know, and I had a conversation with my mom before she died, and, you know, we were sitting there pretty close to the end, you know, and she said, I just, I just swapped out one her words, one asshole for another. My mother was born as the first child of her mother and father. Her father didn't want kids, shipped her off to her grandparents. And she spent like a couple of years with them from being a baby. Mm-hmm. And then they brought her back, briefly shipped her back to her grandparents and this went on backwards and forwards. And my grand, her grandfather said to her, Your father will want you back when you're old enough to work. And at 14 she was old enough to work, cuz that's the age at was at that time in the UK and at 14 he came and collected her and put her to work as a sewing machinist. He was a very abusive, my step my grandfather was an a I used to say about my stepfather is that he could cut you to the bone and walk away laughing like he was mean and cruel and you know, and had been violent to my grandmother and to her. So she, you know, like she said, she just traded out what was familiar that was part of her emotional source code. And we are pulled. Dramatically pulled towards whatever's in our emotional source code until we can identify that code. Yeah. And then we have to identify what is the anatomy of meaning. And on top of that, what is the identity I've built on that, that keeps pulling me back into the loop.

Robin: 11:46

So that was the origin. How did you pull yourself out of that? Where did, because that stifles curiosity, that stifles growth and development, At what point did you realize you needed to do something different?

Dov: 12:02

It's not a, it's not a moment. It's, it's several things. So first of all, we were camping with my stepfather in Wales before things went too crazy. And I sat up in the tent, fast asleep in what appeared to be a slash waking dream nightmare

Robin: 12:23

and age was almost

Dov: 12:24

eight. Almost eight, almost eight. And I started speaking in a language that was completely unfamiliar. So they figured I was babbling, you know? Right. And in the morning my mom says, asked me how I was feeling. I was okay. And she goes, Do you remember your dream? And I said, Hmm. Oh, I think so. And she said do you know what you were saying? And I said, No, I just know it was hoppy. And she said, What's hoppy? And I said, I don't know. And later on I came to realize that I believe it's not the truth, I believe. That I was speaking some Hopi dialect of the, the Native American. So somewhere I was sort of channeling something and my mother was freaked the hell out. And that got her worried. But on top of that, as I got a little bit older, I was an artist and my art was in galleries by the time I was a kid. Right. But she would say to her friends, this was part of her. When you have people who are very damaged, narcissism shows up in different forms. And so one of narcism means when you're a have a narcissistic parent, the child is not a separate person. It's an appendage to the parent. So if I have a gift, it's my mother's gift to show off, right? That's one of the signs of narcissistic parent. So my mom would say, Sit down, let our Dov draw you our Dov. That was the term, right? Let our Dov draw you. And they'd be like, What? And she'd go, Oh, he's really good. You know? So they'd sit down and I'd begin to draw them and they'd say, let me see it cuz I, you know, I was taking a long time. So I'd show it to them halfway down. They're like, Oh my God, you're really good. And I'd go, It's not finished. So they'd sit down and then I'd, so the halfway mark they liked cuz it looked like them, but by the time it was fully finished, remember these are my fa, my stepfather's friends, right? It didn't look so great because I, my language, I drew your soul So I draw these very dark individuals, right? And at that point my stepfather and my mother were like, I think he's possessed and was shipping you off to the rabbis. So I went Lubovich and went to the rabbis. And fortunately I. Was with some really wonderful spiritual teachers who began to teach me about other realms and the possibility of other realms. And so that was the beginning of my curiosity into the spiritual realm. And as you know, that was my first study was metaphysics, which is quantum which is, you know Cabala. But it was also Nostic and Coptic Christianity. It was Viant, Hindu philosophy, Buddhism and the Tao. That was all spurred from that, that curiosity came from there. And, and my teachers were, you know, it's, the Tao is a completely different philosophy because what people don't know about the Tao is that. The Tao and Confucianism was running at the same time in China. They were competitive. Mm-hmm. And Lao Tzu, who wrote the Tao Te Ching refused to write anything down. Confucius wrote everything down and wanted it to become the, the philosophy of China. And the Tao Te Ching was not written. So when Lao Tzo had a so many followers, and he was, and to go from province to province in China at that time, you had to go through borders and there was always guards on the borders. And they arranged it so that his followers were always at the borders. So they locked him up, his followers locked him up. Right. And refused to let him out until he wrote stuff down And at every border he passed through, they got him to write down some more until eventually they got the Tao Te Ching. So was

Robin: 16:02

your, if I'm hearing you right, your curiosity was spiked. Well, it reignited at this time then?

Dov: 16:09

So it started there. And then the next place of curiosity for me was at 10 years old, I walked into the living room and I saw my mom crying. Now, based on what I've told you so far, you're not surprised my mom was crying. But I saw my mom crying and, you know, I'm her eldest son. I'm, I'm her little hero. Terrible message. But again so I walk in and my mom's crying and she's wiping her tears away and she's pushing her glasses up. And I said what's wrong? And she points at the TV and she says, He's dead. Who? Look at the TV set that it's not a politician that I know. It's not a, doesn't play for man city or man United. So I don't know him. I've not seen him on Coronation Street. So I don't know who he is. And then I listen and he says, I have a dream that one day. and I froze and began to listen. And I became deeply, deeply curious about how this black man, black, let me rephrase that Black Christian minister on, you know, from a kid's point of view on the other side of the world, was having such a profound impact on my poor Jewish mother who's white on this side of the world, right? And I was like, I, I became deeply curious about who he was and how he could have this impact over all those miles, because you live in these, these cloistered to day I realities when you're a kid, right? And suddenly it's something bigger. And so I asked my uncle, who was the smartest member of the family, who he was, and he taught me about his peaceful marches and talked to me about how he was following the path of Gandhi. And I learned about Gandhi through that. So that was the second ignition of the curiosity. The third came when I was about, 15, I think this is wonderful. There was a show called Tomorrow's World and then count of that came a show called Connections with James Burke. Now if some older people are listening to this who are American, and you'll remember it from PBS because it ran on pbs, it was a British show, and this guy was amazing. He would show how this was connected to that. And when I say this, connect to that so obscure things. So this pen is connected to this railway line, which is connected to and quantum theory and like what? And so you and I would be engrossed, right? I was absolutely engrossed. That man was, in my language, the godfather of my curiosity. He was the godfather of my curiosity and I was able to track him down last year. Wow. He lives in France and I interviewed him. And he's actually on one of my, one of my podcasts. I interviewed him. It was just pure heaven. And I told him, You know, you're the godfather of my curiosity. And he was, I mean, you know, I was a kid, right? Say his

Robin: 19:07

name one more time. He's still alive. Say his name one more time. So people listen

Dov: 19:10

to this. Cause James Burke and the old shows were called Connections. You can still watch'em on YouTube, but it was this wonderful set in the 1970s, right. Showing these how to connections with things. And right now he's doing I think it's for Gaia. He's doing another season in France. He was writing it when I called him, and he's in his eighties, late eighties. Awesome.

Robin: 19:33

He definitely knows his why. Dov, this is so fascinating because the, the big, the new question I, I literally had formed that I hadn't asked anyone before is you're already going right to it. And it seems to be something that not a lot of people talk about, but every time I see hints of it here and there, it doesn't surprise me. Mm-hmm. So from your perspective and your understanding, your curiosity and your experiences, what more is there than this material existence?

Dov: 19:59

Well, what do you believe? I think that, yeah, so from my point of view the question in my perspective is fractured because it's, when it says what more is there than this, that's like picking up a grain of sand on a beach and saying, what more is there than this? This is very small. Yes. This is a fraction, a fract, a fraction of a fractal of, of something. So as you know, you know, I studied also along with the religious philosophies, quantum physics. Yep. Psychology neurosciences, that I'm a polymath. Again, thanks to James Burke. However when I went off and studied all those religions, I was always looking for, I'm a pattern guy, right? I'm looking for what's the patterns, what's the patterns to recognize and. There was patterns. I could see them, but I, but a lot of the spiritual stuff for me was annoying because people couldn't get their shit together. Right. They didn't hold the job. They couldn't, they couldn't hold a relationship. Right. They could tell me which way my aura was spinning, but they couldn't tell me, you know, they couldn't make a, a quid and they couldn't have all down a relationship. So I studied psychology. I wanted to understand them. I studied Jungian psychology and I started to understand them. But then I finally wanted, they wanted to moan and complain and whine and blame somebody. I was like, Well, this is bull. I'm not interested in this. Right. So I started studying what was then the psychology of excellence, which today is called leadership. And found a lot of empty souls. Right, right. So it was like, there's something missing here. So on this end of the spectrum, the spiritual, they're very rich souls. Poor inside of the physical world, right? And on the other side, a lot of financial excellence, but soulfully missing. What is the point here? What's going on? And that's the beginning of the journey to understanding and really creating my, my project, which was to source the emotional source code of human beings of nations, you know, and of organizations, which is what I do today. However, what it came down to was these patterns were there's something greater. What is it? Whether you're speaking a youngian level of consciousness, right? This nebulous thing we can't grab because how does consciousness arise? Consciousness which is a nonphysical, arise from a physical matter, cuz your brain is a lump of meat. And out of that comes consciousness. So how does something un non-tangible come from a tangible thing? So that was at a quant, at a psychology level, at a quantum level that we know about fields of energy and not woo energy, but actual resonance fields and, and those fields are connect, created, and how are those fields created? And those fields are, again, non-physical and at a spiritual level, this relationship to something other than ourselves. Okay? For me, people ask me all the time, you know, Did you choose one of those religions? I was born Jewish. But did you follow one of the No, absolutely not. I'm actually, I'm completely in favor of you having a religion. I'm completely against me having one. Right? Because in truth for me, I'll tell you exactly what my religion is. It's over my shoulder. My religion is curiosity. Right. That's my religion. Yep. Because, and, and I, and I would say that the foundation of my religion, which is curiosity, is discernment. Because through, if I'm curious without discernment, then I'll believe anything. Right. I've gone from curious to naive. Right. And I'll always value in naivete, which is different, right. Which is that childlike openness. Right. But I'm curious, but I want to have discernment. I want to look at that and examine that and look for the patterns in it and see where it's about and decide whether it's good for me, not whether it's good for you. Right. Right. So there's no judgment. This is like, does it work for me? No. Like, I don't care if you're gay, I'm just not interested in participating. Thank you. But you know, whatever it is I don't, I don't care if you're a Catholic or you're a satanist, it's got nothing to do with me. However, if it impacts me, I have to have discernment about that. Right, right. So, okay, so, so it's supported by discernment and through a curiosity and discernment. I can always return to a place of love. I can see you for who you are beyond the facade of your identity. Right? I can see you as a creation of something other than us, other than our own being. So is there more? I don't know how there couldn't be. It doesn't make any sense to me. It's says, and again, this might pop a few corks, but for me it's as arrogant as saying we're the only life in the universe. Only intelligent life only. Like, come on, there are millions and millions of galaxies and then on top of that there are suggested black holes in those galaxies that lead to, that lead to other universes. It's infinite. And of course we are the smartest thing in the universe. Oh yeah. You only have to look at Russia and Ukraine. You only have to look at the way we handle money or the way that we take care of this planet. We're so good. Of course, we are the most intelligent and I think there's far more intelligent ones who go, You know what, let's, let's just leave those guys alone you know, let's just not stick anything into the ant hill, cuz those guys are just gonna make a mess of it. So let's leave'em alone. They'll work it out. We'll come back in a couple of thousand years, see how they're doing.

Robin: 25:33

Dov we're gonna get in this emotional source code in a minute and I think this will probably lead into it. How did you, with this background and, and we're getting glimpse of it, how did you let go of judging and embrace love

Dov: 25:48

Well, first of all, I'm laughing because you don't get over judging. It's a human condition. Of course, you judge. It's not about whether you judge, Stop trying, you know, get over this. Being nonjudgmental. It's nonsense. Your human survival depends upon your judgment though. It's question, what's important is discernment about your judgment. Good word. Why am I judging this? Does it impact me? Does it impact my highest truest set of maxims, not values, but maxims? If it does, okay, then, then I can, I can, I can reexamine that, but if it doesn't, what's it gotta do with me? Like, that's ridiculous. So you are going to judge. It's programmed into your biological DNA for your survival. Deciding what to judge is a higher level of consciousness. I don't need to judge everything. Am I going to, Of course. Yeah, that's gonna come up. But I can go, Oh, well what's that gonna do with me? Nothing. So I move away from it. And the way I got to that, cuz that's your question, was I was with Patha Saddi Jay, who was my Vidanta teacher. He was the dean of the university the Vidanta University in Bombay. And on

Robin: 26:59

what, what is that again? Just for some, Vidanta

Dov: 27:00

is Hindu philosophy. Okay. Thank you. Right. So brilliant man. Wonderful man. And I'm, I'm go to meet with him and I show up and I'm in a pissy mood and he says, What's the matter? And how old were you at now? Mm, 23. Okay. So 23. I'm studying Vidanta and I, I'm like, I'm just in this bad mood. And he is like, Well, what happened? And I, and there's this. Something had happened in the neighborhood of where I lived and somebody had murdered somebody. And it had been a situation that I felt could have been managed so much better. Social services could have helped. It was, you know, it was a mess. Sure. And I was angry and disgusted and disappointed in the system. Right. And he asked me, Well, how do you feel about the guy who did the murder? And I said, I can feel compassion for what? I don't know what would've pushed him to that point of view, but it's hard for me to understand that you would go to that place. Mm-hmm. And he said eh. Okay. So, and he, at the end, our conversations were sometimes as long as four or five hours, and sometimes it showed us 10 minutes. Mm-hmm. And on this one was a short one. And he said, I have a mantra for you. And I said, Okay. Now, if you don't know what a mantra is, it's a statement that you repeat over and over and over and you just let it echo in your brain. It's not an affirmation, right? Oftentimes it's, it's a statement that will sort of irritate or, you know, it will get things moving. And so he said, I have a mantra for you and I don't want to talk to you about it, and I don't want you to talk to me about it. And next week we'll come back and we'll talk about it. And I said, Okay. And he says, Here's the mantra. I said, All right. And he goes, The murderer lives in me. I'm like, What are you talking about, There's no murderer in me. Completely defensive. And he said, That's the end of our time. the murderer lives in me. So I walked around cuz I was a very good student of his. I walked around going, The murderer lives in me. That's bullshit. The murderer lives in me. No it doesn't. The murderer lives in me. All these judgments firing off in my head about this statement. And then by the time that week had gone by, I, I walked in and he said how are you? And I said, I'm good. And he said, any thoughts? And I said, The murderer lives in me. And I began to look at what I was judging. This is what his lesson was. Mm-hmm. that I had murdered people's dreams. I had murdered people's hopes. Not on purpose mm-hmm. but I'd done it. I had murdered my own dreams and I also took it to the physical and. In the, in the right situation under the, a set of circumstances that are beyond my imagining, Is it possible that I could murder? Absolutely. Mm-hmm. Did I eat any meat today? Yes. The murderer lives in me. Did I eat any vegetables today? Yes. The murderer lives in me. Because if you look at the research from the early sixties, and I, again, part of my bizarre polymathy, you, you can, you can look at the research that shows that animals and plants feel. Back in those days, we thought animals didn't feel, we didn't even give anesthetic to dogs until the 1990s cuz we thought they didn't feel, and, and we thought, we think that plants don't feel. But you was demonstrated clearly, is that if you put a very similar to what's the right term, The real word for a lie detector

Robin: 30:47

to, Oh no.

Dov: 30:49

Polygraph. Polygraph so that you wire up a plant like a polygraph mm-hmm. And you take another plant that is in the range of that plant, so the, the somatic field is there and you move it off there and you drop it into boiling water. The plant that's alive reacts. It's also

Robin: 31:09

why I, I, I read the book by Robin Sharma, the Monk Who Sold His Ferrari, they call it eating live food. Right. Which is plants Yeah. Live

Dov: 31:19

food. Yeah. But that's the point. Everything is alive. There is life force to it. And it's one of the things I actually do love about the Muslim faith and the Jewish faith is that there is a berakah, there is a blessing for every piece of food you eat. Mm-hmm. So it would be, before you drink wine, you say Barukh ata Adonai Eloheinu melekh ha'olam borei p'ri hagafen. There's a long prep, but that's the end of the prayer. And, and it's, it's the gratitude for. The grape, but it's not the grape, it's for the vine that grew the grape. It's for the, the, the person who harvested the grape. It's for the person who turned the grape into wine. It's this recognition of the ecology of something, this, this ecosystem that brings anything to part. So when you asked earlier, is there more? We come back to this same place. Well, like, Hold on a second. I drive a vehicle. Okay. Well who am I gonna thank? Am I gonna thank Jaguar? I'm gonna thank Tesla. Am I gonna thank Ford? Who am I gonna thank? Well, hold on a second. What about thanking that guy in India who got rubber from trees? Mm-hmm. What about the first guy to ever work out how to do that? Mm-hmm. What about the person who molds the plastic in a factory that goes inside of your dashboard. Yes, we can thank the designers and we can thank the owners. What about the person who works on the on, on the factory floor who is exhausted and tired and overworked and doesn't get paid enough? What about the person who did the artwork for the design? So it's like understanding this Mandel bra set. Do you know what that is? No. The Mandel bro set is a, is a, is a it's a quantum understanding. So if you go look up Mandel bro. Set,

Robin: 32:55

Can you spell it out so that the, my translator will get

Dov: 32:57

it. men do. So M A D M A N D O L B R O T probably not spelled right. Close enough. Cause I can't spell right, right. Barely can spell me your name. But mandelbrot set, and what it is is that you've seen it. I know you've seen it, right? Cause we've all seen it. And, and it's, you are looking at this pattern and as you look into the pattern, it goes deeper and you find one tiny piece of the, and you look into it, and as you look into that part of the pattern, it opens up again into the same pattern, right? Right. Over and over. That's a mandelbrot set. Okay? We live in a mandelbrot set. We live so everything is inside of, inside everything. It's like looking into a mirror that's in front of you with a mirror behind you. You can see these infinite reflections. So that's what it is. Everything is, everything is everything is everything. So when you start looking at life from that position, you start understanding that, Hold on, I'm not that different than you and you're not that different than me. That maybe 10,000 mirrors back or maybe twos back. The murderer lives in me. Sure. It doesn't mean you're a murderer. Please understand that that's not what you're saying. But what you do with that is you build compassion. What you build with that. So you know, lot of talk about empathy. You and I talked about it in previous interviews. Empathy is incredibly important. Empathy without compassion, who cares, Right? Compassion, right? You're not doing anything. Compassion is the action. Yep. Right? So you've got the empathy and the compassion, but the compassion can only come from true empathy. And the true empathy is not putting myself in your place. It's seeing you as me. Right? It's far deeper. The murderer lives in me so I can have compassion for you. It's like, okay, I know you killed this person. Tell me. Tell me how you got to that decision. Well, it wasn't the decision it was in the moment. Okay. Let's talk about the emotional source code that got you to that place. and then you and, and every time, Robin, every time I do this, as you know, I do this with leaders, world leaders, business leaders, athletes, entertainers, you know, entrepreneurs, whatever it is, every time they go, Oh my God. Of course, that's exactly what it is. That's what's been driving the bus forever, but it's disguised. You can't see it. Fish cannot describe water. You're swimming in your own crap. Right.

Robin: 35:24

Everything you've just shared is the undercurrent. Which brings me to that, how did all this move into the emotional source code? What is it and how's it work?

Dov: 35:35

Well, it all moved into it outta pure frustration because it was like, I don't know how to communicate what I see, because people who are my friends and who are my clients will always say, How do you see this? I don't get it. And I couldn't answer it. Seeing the code behind the

Robin: 35:53

matrix

Dov: 35:53

Yeah. That, that's what it was. Right? Yep. And, and I couldn't answer the question because as a very good friend of mine said you have no clue what you're doing, do you? And I said, No. He goes, I know you're a master, but you don't know what you're doing. And I said, No. He goes, You have to, you have to work out what this is because otherwise it dies with you. And I'm like, And he goes, And I know you're, I know what your life's purpose is, so that can't happen. I'm like, You're absolutely

Robin: 36:18

right. What's your life's purpose? You said it. I wanna hear it.

Dov: 36:22

My life's purpose is to impact the lives of the people whose names I will never know, and whose names I will never know. And they will never know my name. I'll never know theirs. So to have a positive impact on those people in fulfilling their lives purpose by understanding their emotional source code so they find out what it is that they want to heal the world of. Mm. Beautiful. So I can't do that if it dies with me. Right. So this was the challenge. And so again, it's not something that's new to me, it's just something that's new in its formation or formulation. So for me, As I said, I was, I've always been a polymath. I wanted to find a way to bring together quantum physics, metaphysics, psychology, neurosciences, all these different areas and, and more politics, et cetera. And you and I have talked about all these things separately in our own conversations off air. But I wanted to bring'em together because for me, they all connected. I could always see the clear connection. It's not like, Well, can I glue this to this? No, no. It's already infinitely connected. I just dunno how to show others how it is, Right. So I began to lay out the emotional source code, and one of the ways that that started was back in the eighties, it was very popular to talk about change. Right. Change management, that's what we called it. Yep. And people resisted change and how do you do change management? Right. And I realized what a bunch of crap that was because they were teaching people how to change, but it would stick about as well as a post it note would in a, in a windstorm. Right. Right. You know, stick for a second and then it's gone. Right. Just gone. It's a terrible technology. So you can't change behavior and people go, Oh, so we should just give up. No, no, no, no, no. Not at all. So what I ended, began to understand was that behavior, our behavior is based on belief. You can't change a behavior without addressing the belief. Okay. So now we need to do belief strategies. Right. Belief. And I, you know became a master trainer in neurolinguistic programming because I figured that was gonna be a great, great tool for getting inside belief systems. And it is. but it wasn't enough. So now I'm like, Okay, hold on a second. So I know you can't change behavior unless change belief and now change beliefs. But some of those behaviors are certainly coming up to the surface, still maybe a bit distorted, but they're still coming up to, Okay, what's going on? So there's a, there's a default position happening behind the change in belief. So there's like a, an embedded belief that is far deeper than me just changing beliefs. There's something happening as a knee, as a knee jerk reaction. And what type of beliefs are

Robin: 39:14

you talking about?

Dov: 39:16

Anything. Anything. So I'll give you an example. The the. Person I'm thinking of, I'm trying to think of a way to say this. Okay. What I mean by that without giving a personal away so this person was a very devout Catholic as a child, Okay. Very devout. Dis discovered that that was not for them, didn't like the judgment, didn't like the idea of going to hell on a hand basket, et cetera, et cetera. Gave up Catholicism and actually became Buddhist version of a Buddhist. Okay? Very cool. We're having a conversation. So now you've got behavioral change. I'm not gonna church on Sunday. I'm not telling you that, that you've got accept the Lord. I'm not talking about the Trinity. I'm not doing any of that stuff, right. Don't celebrate Christmas in the way of any, you know, there's a religion or a ritual, right? And so we're having a conversation and this person then, quote, something Buddhist at me again, as you know, I'm a student of that. So quote something Buddhist at me, but I hear you do know that wasn't Buddhism, right? And he goes, What do you mean? I go, You just threw a Buddhist shirt over a Catholic body. went, What do you mean? I go and I quoted him some Catholic stuff and he is like, Oh my God, that shit's still in there, Right? And now it, I'm not saying it is shit, of course, but Right. That was his reaction to it. Right. So there's this undercurrent knee jerk reaction in these deeper beliefs, right? So you can change the beliefs at level one, level two, but level three very difficult to change level three beliefs. Right? Right. So it's like, mm. And this is part of when people becoming a lot of anxiety because they've changed the behavior, they've changed the be belief, but there's something like, Oh, internal there's, and there's a beliefs conflict going on inside of them. So you know about beliefs in conflict when that happens, there's an inner turmoil. So I went, Okay, what is going on here? Learned how to change the beliefs, learned how to change the behaviors by changing the beliefs. And if I can change the beliefs, which I can, why is this other thing under this undercurrent coming in? And then I realized through this work that behavior is driven by beliefs. But beliefs are driven by identity. People will not do things that is in conflict with their identity. they will not, doesn't matter. They can be masterful at lying. They can, you know, this better than 99.9% of people on the planet. They can be masterful at lying. But if you challenge their identity, they'll spill the truth. They'll spill the truth because it's like, oh, so you know, if this person has an identity, that I'm brave and I'm courageous, right? And that's why I murdered these people because no one else would do it. And you go, Well, so wasn't that an act of cowardice there's an emotional response, right? So let's get all our fuel to it because you've challenged the identity. So now what we've got is we've got behaviors, beliefs, identity. Okay? This is, now I should mention, this identity sits right in the middle. And it is the most difficult one of all because identity is how I survived. I'll come back to it. Below Identity, is the anatomy of meaning. Mm-hmm. and below Anatomy of Meaning is the emotional source code. So now let's run it the other way. The other way is this. Think of the metaphorical DNA. Your emotional source code is your emotional dna, right? That's what you got. You got it. You can't change your DNA. It is what it is. It get will get you off in a murder case or get you convicted in a murder case. You know, it's not my DNA's not yours now, but is DNA fixed? We used to think it was, and we used to think that DNA was not only fixed, but it was primacy primal. So the primacy of DNA, meaning DNA determines everything about you. It determines your physiology, how you behave, your psychology, all those things. But then we, I entered into the human genome project to uncover again, Sorry, I'm going off on a tangent. That's my, part of my areas, but it'll help you understand this. We looked at that. We were totally surprised that we were not that different than a field mouse. Mm-hmm. in fact, in the 90 percentile, similar to a field mouse. So we're really not that advanced. Let's think about that again at a, at a DNA level. And so we go, Okay, so if this is my DNA, does it determine everything? We thought we'd find the shy gene and all those things. And there was lots of talks of those kinds of things. But what came out of it was the realization that it's not the gene, it's the epigenetic effect on the gene. Now, what is epigenetics? Epigenetics is the way that something, the way that a gene responds to its environment, it doesn't change the gene, it changes the way the gene responds. Quote, switching it on or off. Right. This is work that started in the late sixties, but never came to really fruition until mid 2000 to 2010 is when it started to come to surface really well. Mm-hmm. So what we started to learn was that the gene is going to respond to the environment. Now what's the environment of a gene? Well, it's the cell. So we used to think the gene is the, is the brain, right? The DNA is the brain of the cell. But if you take that out, the cell doesn't die. Hmm. Hold on a second. If I take your brain out, I'm pretty sure you'll die. So why doesn't it die. If you break the membrane or you change the membrane the DNA will die? Mm-hmm. So the membrane is the environment that holds the DNA that holds that. So what goes into, what is the quote liquid that goes into that environment, that liquid is a, a neuro polypeptide cascade created inside of your brain, created, created in different parts of your brain, but certainly in the hypothalamus, which is the mood and appetite center, the amygdala, et cetera, parts of your brain. And that floods your bo your brain, your body, and your brain. With these neuro, neuro polypeptides floods them with them. That builds receptors on the cells for whatever is the most of. So if, let's say this is a ridiculous number, but let's say you've got a thousand receptors on your cell. It's not, it's millions. Mm-hmm. your thousand receptors on your cell and you keep, your brain keeps flooding, anger from when you're a child, right? Mm-hmm. the receptors on the cells now start building receptors for anger, cuz that's the one that's most of. That receptor then takes in the anger, neurochemical cascade puts it inside of the cell and the DNA responds to anger. So emotion is a neurochemical. And the neurochemical changes the cell. Now that cells, Now let's go back to emotional source code. Your emotional source code is your emotional source code. It's fixed like your DNA, but does it turn on or off? That's determined by the environment. The environment gives you your anatomy of meaning, right? So it says, Oh, trust this person, because I could trust them when I was a kid. They're like, And this is what the mind uses. Like this is like that, right? It's not true. It's just this is like that. And so I say to people, there is a simple example. I want you right now, as you're listening, as you're watching this, think about somebody who was at school when you were at school, who was a dick. Mm-hmm. Maybe they were a dick to you, or maybe they were just a dick generally, maybe there was a bully to you. Whoever it is. I want you to think of that person. Have you got one. Robin? Yep. Okay. What was the person's first name?

Robin: 47:30

Just first name.

Dov: 47:31

Tim. Tim, there is an automatic reaction inside of you. Tell me if I'm wrong, that when you meet a Tim, there's a micro flash of a resistance. Something like there's an, there's an anatomy of meaning of this three letter name that says, Oh, can I trust this, Tim? It's automatic. Again, we talked about judgment. It's automatic. It's not because you're a horrible person, right? It's inside your anatomy of meaning. Tim's our dicks, right? Okay. Now you having discernment and being an evolved human being, go, Is that true? Let's have a look. No, this is a great Tim, but that instant reaction comes from your anatomy of meaning, right? So you've decided how to survive in the world by creating this quick classifications inside of your anatomy of meaning. Right. You then build an identity in order to survive in the world. Now human beings desperately need to belong. That is in our DNA. It's at every possible level. It's all the way back to cave men, because if we didn't have a tribe, we died. It's very simple. Yep. So we need a tribe. Human beings need to belong. However, and this is, underline this, please, if you're taking notes, we trade belonging for fitting in vastly different, vastly different. As you know, I spoke at the UN back in 2015, and I spoke there with my cohort, who was Tony McAleer. Tony McAleer wrote a book called The Cure for Hate. Tony is an ex neo-Nazi. Mm-hmm. He was the head of WAR, white Arian race. We were speaking about de the radicalizing, the far right. Mm-hmm. because Tony had become that, that white Arian guy as a result of his emotional source code, of his anatomy of meaning. And he needed a place to belong. Mm-hmm. But he traded that for a place he would fit in, right? So he ended up in a Neo Nazi group because he wanted to feel loved, he wanted to feel like he belonged. He wanted to, He's incredibly intelligent. He wanted a place where his, his intelligence would be valued. And he wanted a place where he would have a voice. He got all that in that movement. So he took on the beliefs, right, to fulfill the identity that created the behaviors, right? That's emotional source code, right? That's how it works for all of us. So if you wanna change the, the behavior, you have to change the belief. You wanna change the belief, you've gotta address the identity. But addressing the identity is difficult because this is how I survive based on my anatomy of meaning, right? And I just got the emotional source code of who I am. I can't change that, but you can change the anatomy of meaning. So no longer does Tim always be a dick, although it might be the knee jerk. Tim might be a really, this, Tim might be a lovely guy. And then as a result, I can look at my identity differently. As a result, I can look at the beliefs that support that identity and as a result, I can realize that I'm doing behaviors that support the beliefs that supported the old identity. And so when I work with somebody, that's where we're going. The the one-on-one work, that's where we're going. And it's terrifying for some people because you're asking me to question my identity. Don't we call it an identity crisis? I call it an identity breakthrough. If you going through an identity crisis right now, as you listen to this, I want you to think of it this way. If you're a religious person, I want you to think this is my gift from God. This identity crisis is to show me I've been living as somebody I'm not. And that in and of itself can be a terrifying idea. It doesn't mean you're gonna give up everything about who you were, but there is elements of who you are that are completely contradictory to who you truly are. And my job in our work is to bring home what we call the disenfranchised parts of yourself that you gave up in order to fit in. And when you reclaim them, you find the place you belong. So you can serve in the world and make a greater difference.

Robin: 51:43

Geez, just leaves you speechless, Sorry mate. No, it really does. When, people bring you on to identify their emotional source code, what do they hope to get out of this?

Dov: 51:58

Well, usually if it's an individual they've reached the place where they've gone. I have it all. I'm married. I have a good partner. I've got good kids. They're doing well. I've made a lot of money. I bought a house here and I bought a yacht there. Why do, why is something still missing? Why are I, do I have this gnawing, knowing that something's missing? Mm-hmm. like, there's a memo I didn't get. There's something going on and I don't know what it is. Right? And they're thinking about doing behaviors that are inconsistent with who they are. Now, That's actually their soul, challenging them to say, You're not this, you're not this identity. So you start doing things that are destructive to the identity. And then what happens to that is there's an egoic response, which is to overcompensate, to come back. The even harder on that side doesn't work, but that, it's that point of going, this isn't work. There's something missing. When they bring me in to do it with a company, it's like, Okay. We make a lot of money. We do very well, but, but we don't have loyalty. We can't build that bond with our people or with our customers in the way that we want it, so that people are bound to us, emotionally connected. We try to do all this smart, intelligent, logical stuff. It doesn't work. Human beings are emotional first, not second, first. We rationalize our, our emotions. We tell rational lies about our, our emotions. We're emotional first. So in a, in a company, we want to go to what is the emotional source code of that organization so people can bond to it. But you can break it down. As I said, even with nations, as you know, you and I talked about doing it with America or Britain

Robin: 53:47

And you know for those listening, if you want a, a good first start on getting an example of one of these emotional source codes. Dov does a fantastic job with Vladimir Putin, and all you have to do to get that is subscribe to his newsletter and you get it. I did it because I was about to give a talk on the geopolitical challenges of Ukraine and Russia, and I worked against Russia my entire career in the FBI and I found that emotional source code of Putin that you did profound. It was per, it was spot on. I've used it and it gave, it is a great example. So for those listening, go ahead, subscribe to that newsletter and get that so you can understand how to dive deeper. And Dov as we start closing this up, what, what would you recommend people do as a first thing to start this journey to discover their own emotional source code? Well,

Dov: 54:35

thank you Robin. I really appreciate that. First of all, I would do what you just said. Go to dovbaron.com, DOVBARON.com and just download that, that it comes up as a popup in 10 seconds. And you can download that just so you get a grasp of it. And, and by the way, I would also encourage you to do this. I would really encourage you to do this. Listen back to this show cuz you were probably doing something. That's what most people doing during podcast. Listen back and take some notes because I guarantee you, you miss stuff. And the reason that is because I said things that challenge your identity. I know that. I know that. And what happens is when you challenge the identity, the ego goes, Oh, that's interesting. Let's get rid of it. it throws it behind your head, let's get rid of it. I don't know what you're talking about, right? So, so you need to listen to it a couple of times and take some notes on it and ask yourself those deeper questions. So that's where you can start. However, However, on a personal level, start by asking the, the difficult questions. What do I believe? Okay, I believe this. Why? Right? Why? Why do I believe that? So I told you the story of a guy who came in who was in one of the workshops we were doing, and I said, Put your hands up if you're religious. And he put his hand up and I said, What religion are you? And he said, I'm a Catholic. And I said, Why? And he is like, Are you saying I shouldn't be? And I said, Absolutely not. I'm actually here to support you in your faith, not pull you away from it. And he goes, Well, I don't understand the question. I said, Why are you a Catholic? He goes, I go to church. I believe in Jesus. You know, I believe in the Trinity. You know, I go to church. My mom was Catholic, my father's Catholic, blah, blah, blah. And I said, Oh, so you're Catholic because you fell out of a Catholic. Or a sperm donor was Catholic. And he goes, No, that's ridiculous. Now he is mad at me now. Right, right. And I said, I'm just asking you to question it. I'm not saying you, you're not a Catholic. I'm not saying you shouldn't be one. I'm asking you to question it. He was pretty pissed. I didn't see him for about two months. And I'm walking down Robson Street, one of the main shopping streets in Vancouver. Mm-hmm. And I see him coming towards me and I'm thinking, Oh, well this could be a bit iffy. Right? And he's coming towards me, but instead of me being upset, instead of him being upset, he's happy. And he gives me a big hug. And he goes, Dov. I'm so glad to see you. And I said, Oh, I'm surprised it didn't go so well last time. And he goes, No, no, no, I wanna thank you. And I said, Why? He goes, Because now I'm a Catholic. He goes, I get it now. He goes, I thought you were trying to talk me on religion, but I understand now. You were actually taking me deeper into it. Question what it is you believe. Ask yourself, why do I believe that? And whatever you get as an answer, why do I believe that? Whatever you get as an answer, why do I believe that? Start there if you are willing to be curious, not judgemental, right? Curious about the things you believe and then you apply discernment, which is, okay, well I've got to that answer, but does that make any sense for me? Suddenly things get deeper. Your life gets deeper. Your love gets deeper. If you are in a relationship and you, I say, Why? Is it because I love my wife? Not enough mate. Not enough. Why do you love your wife, right? Because of this? Well, she, she, she's a good woman. Okay. Why do you love her because she's a good woman? Why do you, you know, like one of the reasons I love my wife is she challenges that she. Right. Right. You know that she's not only on my cheering squad, she's on my boot, me in the ass squad. Right. So it's like take it deeper. As you start to do that, you set to explore yourself, because here's the thing, and I wanna just say this before we finish, You'll never be a great leader without deep self knowledge and deep self knowledge will never be acquired on your own. Yep. A fish cannot describe water. You're swimming in your own shit. You need someone else who can help you to see that and guide you. It doesn't have to be me, but it certainly can't be your best mate who is biased. It can't be your misses or your husband who is biased. It can't be your kids who is biased. It needs to be somebody external of you, objective and preferably who you pay, because then you're invested in going the whole journey. That is my recommendation.

Robin: 59:03

Perfect. Dov. I never know what I'm gonna get. It's like a box of chocolates.

Dov: 59:08

Life with Dov is a box of

Robin: 59:10

chocolate It was awesome. Thank you so much for the journey. Sharing that journey with me and the audience today. And it was everything I was hoping for and more. And I hope everyone take Dov's advice. Listen to this episode multiple times. So do that, dive in and thanks again, Dov.

Dov: 59:28

Thank you, Robin. It's been a pleasure and honor always is a pleasure and honor's talk to you and thank you for taking me in directions that don't normally happen in a podcast. You know, and again, I want just say to everybody, listen multiple times, but you know what,this is. I keep saying this to, it's so important. Rate, review, and subscribe to the show. This is a one way system. We're sharing with you. Robin doesn't know, you know, I know how much work he puts into this. Let him know you appreciate it. Tell him what you got out of the show, not just mine, any of the episodes, because trust comes from reciprocal vulnerability. The willingness to share, be willing to do that. I appreciate you. Thank you, Robin. It's always a pleasure, my friends. Stay curious, my friends. Stay curious. Stay curious.

Robin: 1:00:13

Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged by Trust. If you enjoyed the show, took away a few new tools, I hope you'll click like and leave a great review of the show to show your support. If you're interested in more information about how I can help to forge your own trust building, communication, and interpersonal strategies for yourself or your organization, please visit my website at www.peopleformula.com. I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forged by Trust episode with you next week when we chat with my good friend, Annie Leib and Soul Centered Breath framework for creating the life you want to lead.