The Six-Axis Model of Influence w/ Chase Hughes

🌟 The Six Axis Model of Influence

🤔 Many of us have faced Crippling Fears and Insecurities that have led to Interpersonal Challenges and Setbacks. But, armed with a deeper understanding of human behavior and persuasion you can overcome your obstacles. Therefore, tune into this week’s Human Behavior Focused episode, with the acclaimed “Behavior Panel’s” Chase Hughes and Uncover his Six-Axis Model of Influence. 

🌟 What We Discuss with Chase:

👉 ⁃       Ethics in Persuasion
👉 ⁃       Gut Feelings
👉 ⁃       The FATE Model for Understanding Human Behavior
👉 ⁃       The Six-Axis Model of Influence

🌟 About Chase:

The leading military and intelligence behavior expert with 20 years of creating the most advanced behavior skills courses and tactics available worldwide:

Chase Hughes is a leading behavior expert in the United States and the #1 bestselling author of two books on tactical behavior skills. He is the author of the worldwide #1 bestselling book on advanced persuasion, influence and behavior profiling.

Chase teaches elite groups, government agencies and police in behavior science skills including behavior profiling, nonverbal analysis, deception detection, interrogation, and advanced behavioral investigation. His PEACE 4A course is a critical, life-saving course designed for law enforcement, and his Human Tradecraft course is specifically designed for intelligence operations personnel who depend heavily on serious human behavior skills.

🙏 Thanks, Chase! Reach out, connect, and follow Chase across his social platforms:

👉 -       Twitter: https://twitter.com/thechasehughes

👉 -       Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chasehughesofficial/

👉 -       Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/chasehughesofficial 

🌟 Resources mentioned in the podcast:

👉 -       Chase’s website: https://www.chasehughes.com/

👉 -       Robert Cialdini: https://www.influenceatwork.com/

Pre-Order my Latest Book: "Unbreakable Alliances: A Spy Recruiters Authoritative Guide to Cultivating Powerful & Lasting Connections" HERE

Unlocking the Power of Trust: Keynote Speaker Robin Dreeke Shares Secrets to Creating Allies - Robin is the former Chief of the FBI's Counterintelligence Behavioral Analysis Program. With over 30 years of experience in recruiting spies and building trust, Robin is the world-renowned speaker you need. Don't miss out on the opportunity to learn from a true expert. Contact us now to book your event! Click HERE to book a time to chat.

🤔 Take Robin's FREE YouTube Keys to Communication Online Course HERE.

😃 Check out Robin's Speaking, and Training Services HERE.

Transcript

Robin: 0:06

Welcome to the Forged by Trust podcast. I'm your host, Robin Dreeke, executive coach, former US Marine spy recruiter, bestselling author, and you're a trust and communication expert. Today's episode, the Six Access Model of Influence, is brought to you by my guest, bestselling author, and behavior expert Chase Hughes and his complimentary training app. Success is Human, not financial. Our single mission is to deliver the most powerful training in the world to allow you to influence, persuade, interpret, and live on a level most we'll never know. When results count. The training matters. This network is unlike anything else. Live weekly coaching, a network that matters. Instant training access, real life connections, weapons grade skills, life-changing mentors. Become a behavior locksmith. Join the tribe now to start your journey. Unlock the most powerful training system for human behavior on earth. Check it out on his website, chasehughes.com. Coming up next on the Forge By Trust podcast.

Chase: 1:02

The first whole part of every training I do is I open it up by saying, you're in the business of manufacturing gut feelings in other people. And the, the first rule that I teach in behavior profiling, number one thing that, that everybody learns is to see suffering first. The more you know, the more you realize that you don't know very much.

Robin: 1:48

Today's episode, the six axis model of influence is with the behavior panel's, Chase Hughes called the number one behavior expert in the world by Dr. Phil. Chase Hughes is the leading military and intelligence behavior expert with 20 years of creating the most advanced behavior skills, courses and tactics available worldwide. Chase Hughes is a leading behavior expert in the United States and the number one bestselling author of two books on tactical behavior skills. He is the author of the Worldwide number one bestselling book on Advanced Persuasion, influence and Behavior profiling. Chase teaches elite groups, government agencies, and police in behavior science skills, including behavior profiling, non-verbal analysis, deception detection, interrogation, and advanced behavioral investigation. His PEACE 4A course is a critical lifesaving course designed for law enforcement, and his human trade craft course is specifically designed for intelligence operations personnel who depend heavily on serious human behavior skills. During today's episode, we talk about gut feelings, ethics in persuasion. The FATE model for understanding human behavior and the six axis model of influence. Chase Hughes, welcome to the show, finally,

Chase: 3:01

Thanks. Appreciate

Robin: 3:03

it. Yeah. We've traveled in each other's circles for quite some time. So Chase, you've done amazing things in your life and we're definitely gonna get to the end state of this, which is the six axis model of influence, which you are known for great human behavior, understanding and interaction. But what I'm curious about, Is the spark. You are passionate about service cuz you spent a career in the Navy and I want to go down that road as well. And you're also passionate about human behavior. What was a spark that created that

Chase: 3:37

passion? I had social anxiety growing up and I couldn't talk to people. I felt like I didn't, didn't get along well with people and. At the time I was 17, I was failing every single class in high school. I couldn't pass a grade and I thought, you know, there, I'm not gonna get into any college. I have to join the military. So I walked into this Navy recruiting office, joined the Navy. And started out, my first job in the military was scraping paint off, off like the side of the ship and like repainting rusted areas

Robin: 4:17

and stuff. Now, hold on. I'm doing the worst thing ever. I'm interrupting because you've already dropped so many things. I want to explore first. Literally the first thing you said sparked curiosity. You had social anxiety growing up. What did that look like? Because I think we've

Chase: 4:33

all experienced it. Yeah, so I think for me, I just thought, how is everyone else so perfect? How is everyone else able to just connect with other people and how, why am I the one who's like, I'm the only one who has insecurities. I'm the only one who is like hiding little things that I'm ashamed of, you know? And you just kind of get in this bubble. Which is exacerbated today, and where we compare our normal life to some highlight reel of someone else's life on social media. But I got to that point and it was strange just thinking that that was my life. And in the military I was at, I was stationed in Pearl Harbor talking to this young lady in Waikiki Beach one evening, and like she turned me down hard. She's. Almost said f you. It was that bad. And I, I had assumed everything was great up just to this wall point, and I went home and I typed in how to tell when girls like you into Google and printed off this mountain of like, like, you know, those articles that are like 10 secret body language tricks, you know, when she's to you and that, that kind of thing. And printed this out. I just became obsessed with it because the more I learned to spot and see fears and insecurities and weaknesses in other people, I didn't feel better than anybody. I just feel like, oh. I'm not the only one that's screwed up. There's other people that are screwed up too. Most everybody is suffering. Everyone you see is suffering in some way. And it, it kind of injected me with confidence and empathy at the same time where it just humanized everybody. And where did you grow up? I grew up in Houston, Texas.

Robin: 6:25

All right. And what was growing up like, because I'm trying to understand where this insecurity at the young age came from, and what was the first time you saw it manifest

Chase: 6:35

in you? I think it was just growing up in like this country club kind of environment and I, I was the only kid who didn't, you know, like join this golf team. Right. You know, I didn't necessarily like wearing, The country club attire and stuff growing up and I just didn't feel like I was supposed to be there. Like maybe, maybe I was, somebody else's kid is meant to be here, you know, doing this. And I think that probably started it. And I got moved off to a military academy when I was 11 and went to military school up until I left for the Navy. And did well there. And I credit all of my success to that military school. A thousand percent more than the US military. Yeah. As you know, like you might, you're do well in the military if you have leadership and discipline, but you don't necessarily learn it there. You know, you people who really succeed come in with that stuff. But that was a Missouri Military Academy.

Robin: 7:40

And why that one? So your parents sent you there, you wanted to go there. What was the impetus to go there?

Chase: 7:45

It was both. I knew something had to happen at, when I was 11 and my parents said, you know, this is pre-internet. Did this exhaustive search to find like this the, you knew, you knew

Robin: 7:57

something had to happen. What? What do you mean something that had to happen?

Chase: 8:01

Well, my education was. Severely failing. I was like, could not pass classes. I'm fluent in Spanish and I was failing Spanish. Oh, wow. I just knew that I needed some kind of structure. And even at that young age, there's something in the back of my head that said like, there some something's lacking here in terms of like structure and the environment that I'm in. And the military always seemed badass to me. So I was like, well, I'm go to military school, they're gonna teach me how to fight. Which, you know, obviously didn't happen. But you know, I thought all this stuff cool stuff was

Robin: 8:34

gonna happen. And why was that? Did you have someone or something in your life that got you into the military at that

Chase: 8:39

young age? Not really. My dad's father was a flight instructor. He died when I was two, so I, I don't have any memories of him. I just, you know, probably watching like under siege, I, I've never said this out loud first movie like, First like rated R movie I've ever seen. Right. Definitely the first movie with like boobs in it or something like that. Right. I think that's what did it like, I was like, wow, the Navy is really badass. Right. I remember that movie Planted a seed. Yeah. This guy. Navy Seal Guy. It's Steven Segal. Yep. Great movie.

Robin: 9:14

And so you, took the, you took charge of this, of, of saying, I need to do something more. This was your idea?.

Chase: 9:21

I think it was both. My parents just approached me with it one day and I said, yeah, that sounds cool, number one, but two, I think that's, that's the only way that I'm gonna get any structure. Wow.

Robin: 9:36

And so what was that experience at the military academy like, what were some of the great takeaways you think you got there?

Chase: 9:41

I was explaining this to my son. And how old's your son? He is 14. Okay, good. Go ahead. And he was asking me how the school was, and I said it's like a mixture between boot camp. Harvard and a fancy hotel so they take really good care of you. It's like a Michelin star chef. Everything is fresh and organic and natural and like your laundry's done for you. But you, you better work your ass off. You. You've really gotta work and you've gotta manage your time exceedingly well. Starting at like age 11, the youngest kids there, you manage yourself and you manage your own time. You just gotta be where you're supposed to be and that really, really did help.

Robin: 10:23

So what kind of differences did you see in your grades? How fast did that turnaround happen?

Chase: 10:27

Not a whole lot. They kind of floated up to passing. But it was just the, the life skills that I, I was learning without knowing it. So like I never went to a class where they're like, here's how to be a good leader, and the big PowerPoint comes on the screen. But just that being forced into this social interaction with other boys and just learning. In that environment where you've got a, like your survival kind of, and especially in a military school, is rooted in how well you can connect with those other people. Can you relate to somebody who, like all these rich kids from Mexico City traveled to this school? Like for some reason? Right. And it was the first time I'd, you know, been around anybody that wasn't like me. And I think that was a big part of it. Just the, the social development.

Robin: 11:15

And so that brings us up to, so what was a spark then for joining the military, going in the Navy?

Chase: 11:22

I just thought it was cool first off, but I knew that college wasn't for me. I've since been to college, but I knew that it wasn't for me. I knew that was definitely not the right time in my life and I, I definitely wanted to travel. I wanted to, you know, go see new stuff and go to different places and, I went to all the recruiters and the Navy recruiters like, yeah, you're gonna travel the most right here in the Navy. And I was like, all right, sounds good. What'd you wanna

Robin: 11:48

do? Did you even know,

Chase: 11:50

I wanted to be a detective, like a, like an investigator or something like that. And you know, I got a line from the recruiter. It's like, oh, you do this one job and then you can pick whatever job you. And I'm, I know you are a Marine and I'm sure you've heard those stories. Now I came into the Navy as a mine man. So a person who's like working on underwater mines and, and stuff like that. Uhhuh. And when I got the orders, like the day we graduated, bootcamp, you know, they give you these orders in your hand. And mine, mine did not say mine man. They said another job this which was called undesignated, which they in the Marine Corps and the Navy, I think both. Mine un undesignated and the drill sergeant, or r d c in the Navy, he's like, does anybody have a problem with your orders? And I put my hand up and he goes, put your hand down Hughes. And I was like, okay.

Robin: 12:40

So you're undesignated, what was your first duty station? What, what job did they give you to do?

Chase: 12:44

My first job was on a destroyer guided missile destroyer USS Russell. And it was in Pearl Harbor, scraping the ship. It's rusting out all the time. And it didn't take long for me to say, this is not, you know, I don't, I don't want to be here. So I changed jobs as fast as I could.

Robin: 13:02

So is this around the same time that we had this experience with being shot down very completely, where you printed out the, how you can tell if a female likes you or not?

Chase: 13:13

That was it, that was the timeframe there. And

Robin: 13:16

what did you learn from that experience?

Chase: 13:19

I think just like, well, I, all I wanted to do was like, I don't, I wanted to avoid rejection, so I wanted to read all these body language things. Like I want to know if she's okay with me asking her that question. I wanna know if she's into me essentially before I just ask somebody that question. So that's, that was the impetus of it, and it became more and more addicting. So I consumed a hundred books in the first two or three years. I spent all my money on books and behavior studying stuff. And around that time my best friend, his name is Craig Weberley, died was killed in a terrorist attack on the USS Cole oh my gosh. And this happened, you know, around, you know, the September 11th attacks and the u s s Cole was a, a part of that, and a lot of people didn't hear about it. Right. And especially today, we don't hear much about it. But I'm reading these intel briefings, which I know you're extremely familiar with, but especially in the Intel community, there's a tendency toward this radical level of honesty of like, why did this fail? Or at least back then there was. And it was attributed to these failures and intelligence operatives that are in the theater to recruit local assets, to get local people to provide the information. So they said like, this could have been anticipated, at least if we had more local assets, if we were able to do this. So essentially it was like a behavioral skills thing. And I'm sitting here with all of these body language things in my head at this point thinking, oh, I'm basically a body language expert. 20 years old and I thought, well, I, I'm gonna solve this problem. I'm gonna figure out how to get intelligence officers to be able to recruit people using all of these skills. So I kind of just devoted my life, the rest of that part of my life to learning all of these skills to where an intelligence officer could. Essentially recruit anybody that they wanted to. And I wanted to be able to do it regardless of language and whatever barriers there might be. I, I wanted to teach intelligence people. How do I get a person to do what I need them to do?

Robin: 15:33

The curious thing to me, besides so many things you're saying, so this wasn't your, your primary rating in the Navy yet, it was your passion. How'd you bring them together to be that resource for these intelligence gatherers

Chase: 15:48

overseas? Eventually I started working in detention centers overseas, and there's one started in Hawaii and we there's Guantanamo Bay and all of this, but I, my title on paper was correctional counselor.

Robin: 16:06

All these things take great relationships along the way, to be given opportunities to kind of follow our passions. Who was it along the way that saw this skillset that allowed you to kind of maneuver yourself into this

Chase: 16:21

passion? I had a commanding officer, his name was Chase Patrick. He's still in the Navy. And it was a, a rare instance of like, you know, we know people who are really humble and who have like maybe a 5% ego. This guy had zero and no ego whatsoever. So when it came for him to take a risk on like putting me somewhere, recommending me for a program, all of this, there was, there was zero hesitation. So he didn't mind. And it was the first, first guy I kind of developed a relationship with and just a mentor mentee relationship with. And that really set everything off. But most importantly, like his ability or his willingness to do that made me think. Maybe I am worth doing all of this stuff for, and maybe I can get all of this stuff done. So I think I, I determined how valuable my information or my skills were based on how people reacted to it, especially back in the, in that day.

Robin: 17:26

What do you think he saw in you that you weren't aware of in

Chase: 17:29

yourself? I don't know. I think he saw like, like a skill level and a determination that I, you know, a lot of us. Ignorant of that. And I'm still, I'm rated the number one behavior expert, body language expert in the world right now. And I still am hesitant to call myself an expert like to this day. And I think that's not necessarily humility that I'm trying to force out there. What I'm saying is like the more you know, the more you realize that you don't know very much.

Robin: 18:03

Oh yeah, no. Especially being exceptionally well-read. Like you, every time you read a new book, you're like, wow, I didn't know all that

Chase: 18:10

Yeah, very true. I said that many times. Going through your book.

Robin: 18:15

Oh thanks. And yeah, they're dated already now too cuz we've all moved on and we're con continue to consume vast amounts of information to make us better. So he sees this in you, he gives you this opportunity. So what were some of those experiences in that role that you had as a counselor?

Chase: 18:33

I think I'm still on NDA for most of that stuff. All right. I can say Well,

Robin: 18:38

well, so I'm, again, not, we don't need nitty gritty details. I'm always curious about the lessons you learned, a humbling moment along

Chase: 18:45

the way, maybe. Okay. So I think one of the biggest things the biggest lesson that I ever got was a, interrogator. That was, you know, working for the US Navy in the Middle East was kind of coaching me through this process on like using an interpreter. I'll just say that. Mm-hmm. and. He was like coaching me and saying like, you have to teach them a certain way of doing things. You have to teach them. You don't just teach them language. You have to teach them how to walk into the room. You have to teach them to stand up straight. The interpreter has to be confident because that's the extension of your voice. So if the interpreter is complacent or docile, Or submissive or just strange acting, you have to teach them that first. And that was the biggest revelation for me, which I, I would've never processed that information, I would've thought like, we need to get his linguistics up to snuff and we need to get his language usage perfectly so it matches my words. But that was a big turning point for me. And that this, this person said, it's not that important to coach them on language. You just literally tell them, say everything that I say. You say everything that they say. Even if there's a mistake, don't correct anything. Don't substitute words, and that's the language training. Then the other part is what takes the, the big bulk of everything, making sure that their non-verbal communication is on point and not just like, let me teach you some body language, but I need this person to be confident. I have to make someone into a confident person. And I can't just say, well, sit up straight project your voice. Those are symptoms of confidence, not actual confidence. And I think no matter how much behavior training somebody's had, there's some part of our subconscious picks up on that and says, oh, those are just little display signals. That's not real. But we don't know it. We can't articulate that. But there's something in our head that gets, that gets clicked just like. When we decide to trust someone, just what your podcast is all about. It's not like we're going through some Excel spreadsheet. There's hundreds of small little things that are underneath, so that even if I've read every persuasion book in the world, meant through all the training and I have an intention to do you harm, or I'm really, really doubting myself, the the trust won't really fully connect. Someone's gonna get a gut feeling. Right, and that's the. The first whole part of every training I do is I open it up by saying, you're in the business of manufacturing gut feelings in other people.

Robin: 21:22

I love that you brought up gut feelings because those are the trickiest things in the world. Tell me

Chase: 21:27

about gut feelings. So I think if, if this is all of human history here, we've been using language for like that much. Because we've, we've spent a long time not using language. So our ancestors pass a lot of stuff down to us, which is why you'll see a cat who has never seen or been educated about a snake in its entire life. You see those YouTube videos where someone sticks a cucumber next to the cat, scares the crap out of him, you know, makes'em jump up in the air. That's ancestor memory that's going there. A small human kid. You hold like a six week old baby. Let's say you hold a baby over like a coffee table or a kitchen counter, you'll see their legs kind of start doing that, and the parents were like, oh, he is, he, he knows how to walk. Nope, that's just the spinal cord reacting to a flat surface. So the ancestors passed down all kinds of stuff, but not language. So we don't have a, a structure in our brain for language. We have one for visual, we have one for olfactory. We've got one for all kinds of other stuff we have about sensory cortex, but there's no language cortex, there's no language piece of the brain. It's just a couple of small areas that we use. So when we are born, we're n we know how to read body language, we know how to send appropriate body language. And I don't just mean body language, I. A little turned off by that term, but just this non-verbal stuff produces so many gut feelings in other people. In fact Malcolm Gladwell talks a lot about this in this book blink. Mm-hmm. when he is saying, they used to spend these nine hours rating doctors to see who would get a malpractice lawsuit in the end. Then they clipped it all down, took the words out, and you could only hear the tone of voices going up and down. And then they put wax paper over the screen and then only showed people the clip for 15 seconds and they estimated it with the exact same accuracy as this nine hour just microscope analysis.

Robin: 23:31

That's crazy. So should people trust their gut feelings?

Chase: 23:36

I would say most of the time they're pretty accurate.

Robin: 23:38

So when someone's getting a gut feeling, what are they actually getting? What's that feeling? Where's it coming from? What's causing it?

Chase: 23:46

Well, there's a, there's a couple ways that we will get that coming in. But it happens inside of this. If we look at the brain in three levels, we have the reptilian, which is kind of the spinal cord, brains stem area, cerebellum. Then we have the mammalian brain, which is kind of like if you just want to copy paste the brain that's, you know, sitting in your dog's head. And on top of that, we have the human brain, which is the neocortex, which literally means new cover in Latin. It's the new covering on top of the mammalian. This is where we have language in the human part of the brain, in the brokers area, warnke area, but down here in the mammalian part of our brain, that thing doesn't speak English. It's completely 100% incapable of language. So when it processes a thought, it doesn't explain it to us. It, it's behind what Malcolm Gladwell called in the book, the Locked door. So we can't, like, we can't look in there to diagnose and see what's really going on in these thought processes. But when it needs to send us a message, it literally gives us a feeling in the gut and gives us some kind of emotion about what to feel about what's going on in front of us because it communicates using emotion and just 90% of our serotonin and about 30% of all the rest of our neurotransmitters are in our stomach, like literally made up in the gut. So that's a lot of where those feelings come from.

Robin: 25:14

Nice. I like it. All right. So we've had this great experience of. Interacting with nefarious folks and using your skills that are developing, you're getting good reps in. So after this assignment, what's next

Chase: 25:30

in my career? Yeah. I've kind of I had something that happened to me, which made me no longer able to go into. Extreme gun fighting like combat situations. Okay. And I moved into this other part of the Navy. I was a Black beret is what they call them, or riverine, which used to be a, a Marine Corps unit, but it was called MSRON and then it was, then it's Riverine. And I was the captain of a sneaky, kind of a espionage boat for about two years. Oh, that's pretty cool.

Robin: 26:03

That was a lot of fun. Yeah. so the human interaction side, were you able to employ any of that in that job? And what did you learn from that?

Chase: 26:13

Not against any adversarial. People, unless you count some of the, the kids that were working for me at the time, But yeah, I definitely did there and I had prob I think 150 people working for me when we were in the Middle East and we're running intelligence operations. We're running security stuff that's going on and it's, there's a whole lot of moving parts. And this is just right as I was retiring, so this is kind of like right at the 2018 or towards the end of my career. And that was the most fun job I've ever had in the Navy. It was just that, just being on that boat and being the captain, this, this cool little boat, like an 85 foot Yeah. Boat.

Robin: 26:56

I'm really curious, Chase, you've done a lot of really hard study and work. Academically to understand all this and you're now applying it in real life and getting those reps in as I was talking about, was there a discovery you had along the way of what the academics are saying and what you're seeing in practical application? Was it congruent or did you see incongruence at all?

Chase: 27:21

I saw there's, there's a lot of congruence, I think, and I think that congruence can trick people into thinking that we can replicate. Complex human situations inside of a lab. And it's like the, the dsm as an example, the little, this is the manual that psychologists use to diagnose a person. And they've also kind of convinced, they almost had people convinced that all of humanity can fit into this little Excel spreadsheet, right? And everyone, oh, I think that's narcissistic disorder. And then somebody will say, oh no, I think that's histrionic. Why can't we just be a human? Because like we don't fall in, this book was made after humans. Humans weren't. You know, after the book, right? So we can fall into multiple categories. So it's really hard and a lot of these studies that we see when we study persuasion, we study influence, even studying interrogations in in labs, you're telling someone, I want you to go in this room. I want you to pretend like you murdered someone yesterday. And you, Hey, college kid over there, take this 15 slide PowerPoint on lie detection and go in there and see if you can detect his lies. Right? Then they come out and say, oh, well, lie detection doesn't work against a trained person who's been through a PowerPoint on it. and I just want you to like, it sounds like, okay, well maybe we're simulating that, that's the equivalent of telling someone to go into a university and say, I want you to pretend like you have diabetes so we can test diabetes, right? We can test diabetes medicine on you. Just pretend so the stakes aren't there and the real situation isn't there. That would make the things happen. So I, I definitely think that we can't put everything into a lab and I think we put a little too much credibility onto certification stuff. And is it peer reviewed? Is it in a journal article? And just like, cuz I think what we do is, is equal parts art and science. Yeah. And I just want you to imagine just for a second, somebody watching hell's Kitchen and looking at Gordon Ramsey and being like, None of that's actually true. None of those recipes that he's using for that salmon have been proven in a peer reviewed journal before. Those recipes must be fake

Robin: 29:41

It's early. It's a good analogy. So we're getting ready to retire from the Navy. What were your thoughts? What was

Chase: 29:49

next? I had no idea and I filled out a resume. Just for your listeners, I know you know this, but when we're transitioning outta the military, we're, we're mandated to go to these classes and they're called TAPS or G P s. and we, I'm going in there and they're teaching us how to fill out these resumes.

Robin: 30:10

Oh, by the way, what was your rank when you get out? Cuz you had an impressive career. I don't want to gloss by that. You got a a, a chief, right?

Chase: 30:18

I was, I was a chief. Yeah.

Robin: 30:19

Right. And so this is, for those listening, that's an extremely successful career. 20 years. Did you do 20? Yes. And so congrats on that. Thanks for your service. Anyway, I didn't wanna digress too much, but keep going now. Thank you. Thanks man.

Chase: 30:34

So we're filling out this resume in this class and I had written the ellipses manual already at the time. It was on Amazon already and

Robin: 30:41

okay. So how how, boy, let's just talk briefly about the amount of energy it took for you to do that while you're working full-time. I, so what was a spark that made you wanna write that at the time when you actually are employed as a chief? How'd you do

Chase: 31:00

that? I had a mentor when I was younger, 25 or so in Hawaii, and I, I don't know if he would want me to put his last name out there, but his first name was Milton and I told him like, well, how do these people get so successful? And he essentially told me the story of like, some people have fun now and some people want more fun later. You either have fun now or desire more fun. And, and you work for that. So I would go to college, I would write papers. All my friends would go out and party or drink and stuff. And I would stay back and I would read and I would do, you know, college papers and all this kind of stuff nonstop. And towards the end of the career, writing that ellipses manual just the bibliography took like four or five months to organize and. It would, it was every day. So I'd come home from work or come off of a mission. I'm literally published it while I was in the Middle East when I'd come off of this mission and it's like, I don't know, five, six o'clock at night. And then I'd go home maybe crack open a beer, sit there until 12, one in the morning working on this, and then get up six, seven o'clock again and do the day again, isn't it? But it was

Robin: 32:16

just nonstop, isn't it? The most amazing thing. That here you are as you describe. When you're younger, you have social anxiety, so become the world's number one behavior expert. And academically you're struggling and you become an author, number one bestselling author.

Chase: 32:36

It's unbelievable. it still feels weird like. Like, I'm just in Quantum Leap, like I've kind of jumped into someone else's life. But when I first published the am the Ellipses Manual, I looked on Amazon. I was like, holy crap. I have a book that's on Amazon, and it had a number one bestseller badge. The second day that it was out instantly, my first reaction is, oh, my, my mom must have bought I Act a hundred. Believed. My mom went online and wrote like a$10,000 check to buy, I dunno, 600

Robin: 33:13

copies or something. That's good. What do you think was so powerful for people that it caught on so well?

Chase: 33:21

I just think it was, I wrote the book that I'd been looking for my whole life. I wanted a book that says like, here's how to do it. I don't have the book around me right now. Oh, it's right over here. It's too far to reach. But there's a book by Bob Cialdini. Yep. And Bob Chaldini. And I just shared a stage together in la five, six months ago. And the book is what really got me satiated initially. Like there's some actionable stuff in the book, but each chapter there's, it talks about here's the research, here's the tendency of humans, and here's a little more research to talk about. And at the end of each chapter, I was just waiting for, I'll turn the page and it was like, now here's exactly how to use this. Right? It never happened. I, I, that's what I wanted. Like I wanna know how to use it. There's a lot of theory and ideas and stuff like that. I want tactics and techniques. There's, you know, TTPs and we talk about in the Navy and Marine. Tactics, techniques and procedures. I wanted something like that that was like really hardcore gritty. It's got all the details in there and you can use it for just about anything. So that's kind of, that was the impetus for writing that I, I wanted to write the book that I've been looking for my whole life.

Robin: 34:40

And you did. All right, so we're transitioning outta the Navy. You're going through the transition counseling. You already wrote a book because you had this amazing forethought those years prior. Instead of having pleasure today, I'm going to go over happiness. Later. Yeah. So what was next?

Chase: 34:57

I filled out a resume and I was going to get a job.. I've never actually told anyone this outside of my family, but I was gonna go get a job at the shipyard here in, in Norfolk and I was going to just be the guy that fits people's face to the right size paint respirators. That was it. All right. That was gonna be my job. And I called up my mentor and I said, Hey, I'm getting out and I want a career, but you know, I'm, I'm filling out this resume just in case. And he says, tear the resume. He said, do not write a resume. Don't plan on getting a job. Don't do it. Because if you write a resume, you're going to use it. You will, you will be tempted to use it. So he said, don't write it, write a fake one for the taps class if you have to, but you need to shred it. So I said, okay. And I'm just kind of burned the boats. I'm like, I'm getting out. I have a, a teeny tiny well, A small sized retirement check that's coming, and I won't be homeless, but I'm gonna try as, as good as I can to, to build a business here.

Robin: 36:04

What, so was he the one that came up with the idea of doing your own business and doing your

Chase: 36:08

own thing? Yes. And he said, this is, you need to turn this into a business.

Robin: 36:15

What? A gift. What a great gift He gave you a, a gift of kicking you in the ass in, in a way that no one had yet and having confidence in you when you might not have even had it in yourself. Yeah. What did he see? Obviously he saw the future. How did he do that?

Chase: 36:33

I have no idea. He, he saw me speak once. I only spoke once during my career to the, to a group of civilian. And it was a a bunch of car dealerships all in one room and they wanted to know like, how do I read a customer, you know, all of the body language tricks. And while I was talking about this, I, I started talking about persuasion and influence and somebody comes up to me after the seminar and says, thanks and all this, and I'm actually not a car salesman. I saw that you. We're coming here today and I came down, I'm a therapist. All of these techniques that you develop for interrogations can help therapists, and that was the biggest switch in my head. I never, I never thought about using this stuff outside of the military, right. And that was kind of the big turning point when I discovered these techniques are almost universal. Like you could use it to become a cult leader or you could use it to help somebody with anxiety and depression.

Robin: 37:33

No doubt. Robert Greene's book 48 Laws of Power, there's a chapter on how to use this stuff for being a cult leader. Yep. Absolutely. It's crazy.

Chase: 37:42

and this. What it was, it was, it's a tool. So like this thing can, I can write a check to charity with this or I can kill a person with this, you know? Yeah. So like the ethics are not in the tool. I think the ethics are in the person that's using the tool,

Robin: 37:59

I'm about to ask you all about the six access model of influence, but since you brought up ethics, let's just talk about that briefly. How do you use and understand human behavior, ethically

Chase: 38:11

I think that the way that I teach persuasion and influence, especially my mastery group, so this is like a weekly coaching group that we have, and I give you so much behavior profiling. And the, the first rule that I teach in behavior profiling, number one thing that, that everybody learns is to see suffering first. Mm-hmm. So when you see some, a-hole cut you off on the highway. That's a suffering human being that's probably fearful of being dominated or fearful of looking weak. And cuz something happened to them in their childhood or something happened to them earlier in life that gave them this behavior. So suffering should always be the first thing that you see, and I teach profiling in such a way that you're gonna see so far behind the curtain that you can't help but feel empathy unless you're a psychopath. So the way that I teach it is just leave people better than you found them.

Robin: 39:06

Guaranteed. It's completely congruent with everything that this represents. But man, I love that statement. See suffering first. That is a beautiful way of putting it and being of service to others, which you've done your entire life. All right, so six axis model of influence. What is it and how can people use it?

Chase: 39:25

So I, I worked my whole life to try to figure out like, like kinda like scientists do when there is. All of this discussion about like how did the universe start or what's like this universal law of the universe? You know, I think, I forget what they call it. I think it's the unified theory is what they call it. Mm-hmm. So I wanted to come up with I'd already come up with the behavioral table of elements, like this kind of unified, you know, behavior profiling thing for what it's worth. But I wanted to come up with something for influence and I discovered. I don't know, 10 years ago that there's some techniques you can use that influence the ancestor part of the human being. Hmm. And there's some you can use that influence the human part. And when we influence the ancestor, we're typically leveraging four things. And those are focus, authority, tribe, and emotion. Those are the things our an that kept our ancestors alive. Like if you're, if you're in a village and you walk past a bush every day and suddenly one night you walk past that bush and a stick snaps. Your level of focus was extremely important in knowing what to prioritize your focus on. So the those things, we call it the fate model, F A T E, focus, authority, trauma, and Emotion. That's how to influence an ancestor inside of a human being. Now to in influence the human part of the brain, we have six things. And those things are, I want you to just to kind of view as I say these, see if you can imagine them as like an empty bottle, maybe like a water bottle. And some of these have different levels than others, and every person you meet is gonna have different levels in these bottles. So the first one is focus. Then we have openness and this is how vulnerable somebody's willing to be. Then we have connection. This is the degree of like a interpersonal connection a person feels. Then we have expectancy. Expectancy means that a person has a generalized belief that something positive is gonna happen at the end of this or in the future. Then we have compliance. And compliance just means is different than suggestability. So compliance means will they respond to a command or like, Hey, pass me that thing over there, or Hey, do this. Then we have suggestibility. So suggestibility is, will they accept and act on a suggested action? So those are the six things. So you only need three, and you can choose any three on that entire model. If you have all six, you could rule the world, but it's hard to get all six. So I want you to think of like the most extreme. Compliance that's ever happened in psychological research, I would probably say is the Milgrim experiment. And if you're not familiar with it, I'll give you a ten second rundown for, for your viewers. It's essentially, this happened at Yale. A volunteer comes into a room, they're told, Hey, you need to shock this person. Every time they get an answer wrong on the test and the you, every time they get an answer wrong, you shock'em with higher voltage and higher voltage and higher voltage all the way leading up to this thing that says X X, X. Danger. Extreme shock. and 67% of people went all the way to the end. They shocked the other person in the room, despite screaming and pounding on the wall saying, I don't wanna do this anymore. And finally close to the end, the person's quiet, silent, making no noise. So they thought that they were shocking in dead body at this point. Mm-hmm. 67% of people, and this, this has been replicated many times, but if you think about this six axis in terms of the Milgrim experiment, they had suggestability. They had compliance and they had focus. That person had no positive expectation. They were not connected whatsoever to anybody that was involved with the experiment, and they weren't being open at all. They're not being vulnerable or revealing whatsoever. So we have almost knocked out three of these things on the model, but just because you have these other three, which is suggestibility, compliance and focus. If you fill those water bottles up to the top, you can essentially get a person to do anything and you just need three. And as a, when I get hired to companies to, to go like train a sales team or something, the first thing I'm looking at is how are they working on this six access model? What are they focused on? If I read their sales script or listen to one of their sales calls, it sounds like they're really focused on conection. and then I can figure out they're failing because they're, they're not filling up the expectancy bottle or they're not filling up the focus bottle, they're not gaining enough focus from the other person. So those six things are, no matter what you learn with behavior profiling or influence, if you're in my training anyway. When I teach, behavior profiling, you're learning how to identify where a person is on those six things. How open are they? How focused are they? Are they being compliant? Do they have expectancy? Do we see their eyes light up? All that kind of stuff. And influence is ways to modify the levels of those six things.

Robin: 44:32

So out of those six things, say you have all the bottles that are empty. Is there one that might be a little bit easier to start filling and how would you start filling it?

Chase: 44:43

It's like I paid you to ask that question,

Robin: 44:46

Oh really? I don't need, see, I'm listening.

Chase: 44:49

Oh, checks in the mail. So focus is absolutely the most easy thing to start filling up. So if we go back to just the thing I was talking about a minute ago when the ancestors walking by the bush and the sticks naps. Anything that is instantaneously novel that we are not expecting automatically fills that focus about halfway to three quarters. And that is typically what you want as your gateway on the six axis. Your, your entry point is usually and should be focus most of the time cuz you're not gonna develop trust with focus. You're not gonna develop. Any of the other things without that person being focused. So novelty, this injection of something new and unexpected is the fastest, absolute, most fast way to do this. And as a quick example, if, if we have time. Yeah. Yeah. I was in Stockholm, Sweden a year or year and a half ago, and the hotel had a booklet, like a paperback booklet on the coffee table, and it said how to act like a local. So like step one was wear black. So I turn the page, step two, don't talk to anyone, don't talk to strangers, And I said, what the hell is this I had no idea about, you know, you know, Swedish culture. So my goal, of course, I'm gonna buck the system, I'm gonna, I'm gonna figure out a trick. And people in Stockholm almost, I think everyone in Stockholm speaks English pretty much. Mm-hmm. So I was like, I need to figure out a trick to make these people be really open and receptive to a stranger's conversation. So I, I thought, well, I have to use novelty first. So I had a picture of a puppy on my phone, and I would walk up to a group of people and I would almost kind of push the phone, unlocked. So it's an unlocked phone and I'm kind of pushing it into a person's hand and I would say, sorry. Do you know how to crop a photo on an iPhone? Guaranteed, that has never happened to them in their entire life. I've handed them an unlocked phone. I've apologized my, sorry, was the first opening word that I said. So I developed this little system, how to talk to people in Stockholm, and it works and it works so well because the door is opened through novelty. Which generates focus. They're looking at a picture of a puppy, which is openness and connection, starting there, and I'm handing'em an unlocked phone, which is more connection there. And I'm, I'm asking them like, can you help me do this? So they're gonna be helping a stranger, which they have expectancy starting to get leveled up there. We can see it in action everywhere you look.

Robin: 47:31

Yeah, I, I'm loving it. I'm, I'm recognizing so many things. It's good stuff. I love third party references. They're so disarming, so true. Seeking, seeking thoughts and opinions, using assistance themes. They're beautiful for forging those early rapports and absolutely building into trust. No doubt. Chase man. Time is flying by. But I wanted to ask you one question because you've brought it up, alluded to it a few times throughout this, and we've mentioned it before, you know, offline imposter syndrome. Yeah, tell me about your imposter syndrome. You said you feel,

Chase: 48:06

I, I don't necessarily feel the syndrome, but the voice is, is still there in my head, sitting here as we're speaking on the podcast, I can hear that voice like, you shouldn't be here. This guy's worked for the F B I. He's a badass. You shouldn't be talking to him. That's still going on in my head, even while I'm sitting here right now on this podcast. And the voices don't go. they do not leave. And this is whether you're Dr. Phil or you're Oprah, the voices are still there. How you hear the voices is what changes over time and what should change over time. And you just, I'm hearing fiction, but I used to put credibility in, in those little thoughts in those little voices. I'm hearing fiction now, so that took a while to just change my relationship and know that those little voices that are saying those things are just a kid. It's a tiny little kid trying to help you. And if you just start hearing it in a little childish voice, maybe give that kid a name. It's helping you to dissociate from it a little bit. But I want, I want everybody to know that you're hearing fiction, and the mistake we make is trying to get rid of the voices. I want you to just as an experiment, try to delete. Mary had a little. lamb, you know, the end of that already you can't delete that. Try to delete that from your mind. You can't do it. So instead of hearing that one way, we're hearing it differently. So like, if we remember the War of the World's podcast or audiobook. Yep. Yep. If I had heard the beginning of it, and I know it's an audiobook, I know it's fiction, and I go to pick you up for lunch and you jump in the car and you think that the world's getting attacked by aliens. We're hearing the exact same thing that's coming outta the same speakers, going into our heads simultaneously. I'm enjoying myself. I'm having a good time. I'm relaxed. I'm looking at the road, and you're freaking out. Your only focus is on this potential threat because you're not sure if you're hearing fiction or not. I am sure, and I don't mean to make everything about you, but. In this example, whoever I picked up would be worried because they're not sure if it's fiction or fact. I

Robin: 50:24

love that you have used so many great phrases and analogies throughout this. I, I've gotta go back and I'm gonna write'em all down again. Chase, what's something you wanted to make sure you shared? That I was a horrible host and I forgot to ask you

Chase: 50:37

about? I don't have. I was good.

Robin: 50:39

We got everything in you wanted to. Yeah, everything's great. All right. Good. Chase, where can people go to find out more about you and put you in their

Chase: 50:46

lives? You can just type my name into the app store.

Robin: 50:50

That would be awesome. Yeah. So talk Yeah. And talk about your app briefly. I'm on there now, so talk about that app briefly. So we'll send people

Chase: 50:56

there. Yeah. The, the Chase Hughes app. I, I read all these books that were like, oh, you need the Facebook group for marketing and you need to host the, you know, all this stuff for running a business. And I was like, well, I'm, I don't really trust these companies at all, and I don't think social media is very healthy for more than five or 10 minutes a day because it's, And this is from a mind control expert. Your brain versus a$1 trillion computer is not going to win. It will lose 100% of the time, and I want it off. So I built a social media network. I created it there where people can take courses, they can interact with each other, they can talk, I'm mandated, like there's no data sharing. There's no data stealing. I don't sell anything. Everything's private and it's just a great network of people who are all real and genuine. There's no ads or anything like that and I, that's what I wanted to build and it's just a cool. Badass group of people,

Robin: 51:59

It is, and I'm on it. So thank you Chase for doing that, putting in that great work and sharing your knowledge and passion for life and how to interact with human beings with the world. I greatly appreciate it. Chase, I can't thank you enough for coming on and sharing you with all of us.

Chase: 52:16

Well, thanks Robin. Thanks Robin, your honor. Thanks for your service, brother.

Robin: 52:19

Oh, you too. Thank you for tuning into another episode of Forged By Trust. If you took away at least one new idea, make a note of it and pass it on to someone else who may need it. If you're interested in more information about how I can help you forge your own trust building communication, interpersonal strategies, as your coach, or as a trust advisor for your organization, please visit my website at www.peopleformula.com I'm looking forward to sharing my next Forged by Trust episode with you next week when we chat with Mark Bowden and why Trust?