{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":6.36,"endTime":9.54,"body":"Hi there, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":6.36,"endTime":9.54,"body":"welcome to Uncommon Sense, the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":9.54,"endTime":12.09,"body":"podcast that sees the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":9.54,"endTime":12.09,"body":"taken-for-granted afresh,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":12.12,"endTime":15.54,"body":"through the eyes of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":12.12,"endTime":15.54,"body":"sociologists. I'm Rosie Hancock"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":15.54,"endTime":16.95,"body":"in Sydney, Australia."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":17.28,"endTime":19.65,"body":"And I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":17.28,"endTime":19.65,"body":"Alexis Hieu Tuong in Ottawa,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":19.68,"endTime":20.25,"body":"Canada."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":20.52,"endTime":22.92,"body":"And were part of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":20.52,"endTime":22.92,"body":"the team at The Sociological"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":22.92,"endTime":26.34,"body":"Review, a place for critical"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":22.92,"endTime":26.34,"body":"thinking, for questioning"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":26.34,"endTime":30.51,"body":"simplistic ideas about society,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":26.34,"endTime":30.51,"body":"and imagining better alternative"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":30.51,"endTime":31.5,"body":"futures as well."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":31.86,"endTime":34.32,"body":"Yeah. And we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":31.86,"endTime":34.32,"body":"believe sociology should be for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":34.32,"endTime":38.13,"body":"everyone, not hidden away in the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":34.32,"endTime":38.13,"body":"universities, buried in jargon"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":38.13,"endTime":42.03,"body":"or trapped behind paywalls. And"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":38.13,"endTime":42.03,"body":"it's for all of us, because it's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":42.03,"endTime":46.05,"body":"about all of us. So, Uncommon"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":42.03,"endTime":46.05,"body":"Sense gets away from the college"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":46.05,"endTime":48.6,"body":"campus and looks at stuff that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":46.05,"endTime":48.6,"body":"affects us all."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":54.57,"endTime":57.57,"body":"So, today, we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":54.57,"endTime":57.57,"body":"talking about Home. It's a word"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":57.57,"endTime":61.02,"body":"that promises so much and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":57.57,"endTime":61.02,"body":"conjures up heaps of images,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":61.17,"endTime":64.68,"body":"from those annoying DIY ads with"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":61.17,"endTime":64.68,"body":"implausible couples and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":64.68,"endTime":67.92,"body":"dungarees – you know the ones"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":64.68,"endTime":67.92,"body":"I'm talking about – to huge"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":67.92,"endTime":71.43,"body":"migration patterns that shaped"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":67.92,"endTime":71.43,"body":"global history. And it's at the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":71.43,"endTime":75.06,"body":"heart of so much of our pop"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":71.43,"endTime":75.06,"body":"culture: films like \"The Wizard"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":75.06,"endTime":79.26,"body":"of Oz\" and, well, \"Home Alone\";"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":75.06,"endTime":79.26,"body":"novels like Yaa Gyasi's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.29,"endTime":83.52,"body":"\"Homegoing\"; TV shows on tiny"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.29,"endTime":83.52,"body":"houses and finding \"A Place in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":83.52,"endTime":87.45,"body":"the Sun\" ... It's behind every"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":83.52,"endTime":87.45,"body":"news bulletin, in tales of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":87.45,"endTime":91.56,"body":"inequality, borders, and more."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":87.45,"endTime":91.56,"body":"In fact, the word \"home\" brings"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":91.56,"endTime":95.07,"body":"with it ideas of security and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":91.56,"endTime":95.07,"body":"insecurity, inclusion and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":95.07,"endTime":99.09,"body":"exclusion, the private, the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":95.07,"endTime":99.09,"body":"public, taste, design, and so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":99.09,"endTime":103.11,"body":"much more. Alexis, I guess to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":99.09,"endTime":103.11,"body":"me, home makes me think of two"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":103.11,"endTime":106.53,"body":"New Zealand, where I was"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":103.11,"endTime":106.53,"body":"born and where I grew up, and"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":106.53,"endTime":111.54,"body":"Australia, where I live now. But"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":106.53,"endTime":111.54,"body":"is it kind of cheating? Or do"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":111.54,"endTime":115.02,"body":"you think it's kind of common to"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":111.54,"endTime":115.02,"body":"have more than one home, Alexis?"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":115.05,"endTime":116.46,"body":"What does it, what does it mean"},{"speaker":"places","startTime":115.05,"endTime":116.46,"body":"to you?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":116.49,"endTime":118.32,"body":"No, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":116.49,"endTime":118.32,"body":"definitely identify with what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":118.32,"endTime":122.91,"body":"you're saying. Like as a, as a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":118.32,"endTime":122.91,"body":"person born in Canada from a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":122.94,"endTime":126.96,"body":"Quebec mother and a Vietnamese"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":122.94,"endTime":126.96,"body":"father, but never having been in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":126.96,"endTime":132.51,"body":"Vietnam, home is kind of just"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":126.96,"endTime":132.51,"body":"like the smells of getting back"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":132.51,"endTime":136.47,"body":"into the house, and smelling"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":132.51,"endTime":136.47,"body":"Vietnamese soup and Quebec"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":136.47,"endTime":138.12,"body":"pudding type of thing."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":138.33,"endTime":141.75,"body":"Yeah. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":138.33,"endTime":141.75,"body":"something that we both have in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":141.75,"endTime":145.68,"body":"common, Alexis, is that we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":141.75,"endTime":145.68,"body":"both based in places where we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":145.68,"endTime":150.75,"body":"living and working on unceded"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":145.68,"endTime":150.75,"body":"indigenous land. So I'm on the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":150.75,"endTime":154.17,"body":"land of the Gadigal people of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":150.75,"endTime":154.17,"body":"the Eora Nation. And Alexis,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":154.17,"endTime":157.65,"body":"you're on Algonquin land, where"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":154.17,"endTime":157.65,"body":"you are in the Ottawa region"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":157.68,"endTime":158.34,"body":"right now."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":158.64,"endTime":161.22,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":158.64,"endTime":161.22,"body":"correct. So, on Algonquin"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":161.22,"endTime":164.46,"body":"unceded land, and actually,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":161.22,"endTime":164.46,"body":"that's something you can read"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":164.46,"endTime":169.23,"body":"more about in the Episode Notes"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":164.46,"endTime":169.23,"body":"for this show. Today, we're"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":169.23,"endTime":172.53,"body":"talking to someone whose work"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":169.23,"endTime":172.53,"body":"speaks to pretty much all of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":172.53,"endTime":176.1,"body":"those themes we mentioned"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":172.53,"endTime":176.1,"body":"earlier. She's Michaela Benson,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":176.19,"endTime":180.06,"body":"Professor of Public Sociology at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":176.19,"endTime":180.06,"body":"Lancaster in the UK. So"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":180.06,"endTime":182.34,"body":"Michaela, it's really nice to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":180.06,"endTime":182.34,"body":"have you with us."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":182.37,"endTime":185.04,"body":"Hi, Alexis. Hi,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":182.37,"endTime":185.04,"body":"Rosie. It's great to be here"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":185.04,"endTime":185.97,"body":"with you today."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":186.0,"endTime":188.07,"body":"Home is at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":186.0,"endTime":188.07,"body":"the heart of so much of your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":188.07,"endTime":191.19,"body":"work, whether it's in your"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":188.07,"endTime":191.19,"body":"research on the London skyline,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":191.34,"endTime":195.09,"body":"or on people building their own"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":191.34,"endTime":195.09,"body":"homes, or moving across borders."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":195.33,"endTime":197.04,"body":"Why does the concept grab you?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":197.13,"endTime":199.35,"body":"Yeah, just"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":197.13,"endTime":199.35,"body":"listening to you in that opening"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":199.35,"endTime":201.9,"body":"... yeah, it was just like"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":199.35,"endTime":201.9,"body":"mentally ticking things off in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":201.9,"endTime":206.91,"body":"my head. Because, all of those"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":201.9,"endTime":206.91,"body":"themes around migration, around"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":206.94,"endTime":209.82,"body":"those kind of lifestyle shows"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":206.94,"endTime":209.82,"body":"that you were talking about,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":210.15,"endTime":213.27,"body":"around our own feelings of where"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":210.15,"endTime":213.27,"body":"we feel at home are really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":213.27,"endTime":216.96,"body":"central to my work, but also to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":213.27,"endTime":216.96,"body":"my experience as well. So, I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":216.96,"endTime":220.08,"body":"don't think it's that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":216.96,"endTime":220.08,"body":"surprising. But I have focused"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":220.08,"endTime":223.77,"body":"on home quite extensively"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":220.08,"endTime":223.77,"body":"throughout my research: whether"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":223.77,"endTime":227.7,"body":"it's looking at how British"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":223.77,"endTime":227.7,"body":"citizens who live in the EU"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":227.7,"endTime":232.56,"body":"experience home in the context"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":227.7,"endTime":232.56,"body":"of Brexit and the changing of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":232.56,"endTime":236.19,"body":"their rights, whether it's the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":232.56,"endTime":236.19,"body":"work I did earlier on in the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":236.22,"endTime":239.82,"body":"2010s with people who were"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":236.22,"endTime":239.82,"body":"building their own homes,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":240.18,"endTime":243.27,"body":"whether it's the research I did"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":240.18,"endTime":243.27,"body":"very, very early on in my"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":243.27,"endTime":246.24,"body":"academic career, where again, I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":243.27,"endTime":246.24,"body":"was working with British"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":246.24,"endTime":249.42,"body":"citizens who'd moved to France"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":246.24,"endTime":249.42,"body":"to kind of live the \"real"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":249.45,"endTime":252.45,"body":"dream\". It's really been right"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":249.45,"endTime":252.45,"body":"at the heart of things. And I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":252.45,"endTime":255.69,"body":"think for me, it's really the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":252.45,"endTime":255.69,"body":"entry point into thinking about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":255.69,"endTime":260.73,"body":"home and migration that really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":255.69,"endTime":260.73,"body":"drew me in. My experience is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":260.73,"endTime":265.44,"body":"similar to Alexis's. I come from"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":260.73,"endTime":265.44,"body":"a mixed family. My mother was"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":265.44,"endTime":268.53,"body":"born and brought up in Hong"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":265.44,"endTime":268.53,"body":"Kong, a place which has changed"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":268.53,"endTime":273.72,"body":"beyond recognition since she was"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":268.53,"endTime":273.72,"body":"born there in the 1950s. We also"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":273.72,"endTime":278.55,"body":"moved a lot when I was a child."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":273.72,"endTime":278.55,"body":"So, for me, it had a quite"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":278.58,"endTime":281.7,"body":"important resonance to think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":278.58,"endTime":281.7,"body":"about where home could be in a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":281.7,"endTime":286.32,"body":"context where actually, until"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":281.7,"endTime":286.32,"body":"the age of 11, I moved every 18"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":286.32,"endTime":291.24,"body":"months. So, thinking about home"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":286.32,"endTime":291.24,"body":"beyond place was really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":291.24,"endTime":292.23,"body":"important to me."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":292.47,"endTime":294.75,"body":"Your work on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":292.47,"endTime":294.75,"body":"Brexit is, I think, super"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":294.75,"endTime":299.82,"body":"interesting to, to reference"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":294.75,"endTime":299.82,"body":"here because I think it shows"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":300.57,"endTime":305.67,"body":"how shaky this idea of home can"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":300.57,"endTime":305.67,"body":"be. Because Brexit has affected"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":305.67,"endTime":309.33,"body":"people in all sorts of ways, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":305.67,"endTime":309.33,"body":"it's changed their relationship"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":309.33,"endTime":313.32,"body":"to where they live. Sort of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":309.33,"endTime":313.32,"body":"like, I think, there are lots of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":313.32,"endTime":319.41,"body":"sort of political upheavals or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":313.32,"endTime":319.41,"body":"climate change related events,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":319.41,"endTime":325.38,"body":"thinking about floods in Europe"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":319.41,"endTime":325.38,"body":"or, or fire in Australia. Any"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":325.38,"endTime":329.22,"body":"kind of event like that really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":325.38,"endTime":329.22,"body":"shakes up our idea of home. Can"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":329.22,"endTime":331.89,"body":"you speak to that a little bit,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":329.22,"endTime":331.89,"body":"about being unsettled?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":332.64,"endTime":334.77,"body":"Yes, I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":332.64,"endTime":334.77,"body":"that's really important. Because"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":334.77,"endTime":338.1,"body":"I think sometimes we take for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":334.77,"endTime":338.1,"body":"granted, particularly when we're"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":338.1,"endTime":341.58,"body":"talking about people who we"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":338.1,"endTime":341.58,"body":"might understand as relatively"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":341.58,"endTime":345.51,"body":"privileged. So, what I mean by"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":341.58,"endTime":345.51,"body":"that is, when I'm looking at the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":345.51,"endTime":349.23,"body":"case of Brexit, British citizens"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":345.51,"endTime":349.23,"body":"who were able to move and settle"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":349.23,"endTime":353.1,"body":"in other EU member states,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":349.23,"endTime":353.1,"body":"because they were British,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":353.1,"endTime":356.76,"body":"because they were European, and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":353.1,"endTime":356.76,"body":"actually feeling, you know, the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":356.76,"endTime":360.69,"body":"justification for that always a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":356.76,"endTime":360.69,"body":"rationalisation was: \"well,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":360.69,"endTime":363.84,"body":"we're here because we can be"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":360.69,"endTime":363.84,"body":"here, we're allowed to be here\";"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":364.02,"endTime":367.86,"body":"because legally they were"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":364.02,"endTime":367.86,"body":"allowed to be here. And yet,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":367.89,"endTime":371.01,"body":"this massive political"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":367.89,"endTime":371.01,"body":"transformation, whatever you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":371.01,"endTime":375.87,"body":"think of Brexit, you know, a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":371.01,"endTime":375.87,"body":"situation where a state decides"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":375.87,"endTime":382.56,"body":"to exit a big union of multiple"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":375.87,"endTime":382.56,"body":"states, and the transformation"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":382.56,"endTime":386.67,"body":"of rights that that brings for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":382.56,"endTime":386.67,"body":"all of us who are British"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":386.67,"endTime":391.35,"body":"citizens, but particularly for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":386.67,"endTime":391.35,"body":"people who have used their EU"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":391.35,"endTime":396.12,"body":"citizenship, to go and settle"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":391.35,"endTime":396.12,"body":"somewhere, shows how kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":396.12,"endTime":400.08,"body":"tentative those understandings"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":396.12,"endTime":400.08,"body":"of your place in the world can"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":400.08,"endTime":403.47,"body":"be. And I think what really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":400.08,"endTime":403.47,"body":"struck me when it came to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":403.47,"endTime":406.02,"body":"Brexit, and speaking with"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":403.47,"endTime":406.02,"body":"British citizens who settled"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":406.02,"endTime":411.6,"body":"across Europe, was not only how"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":406.02,"endTime":411.6,"body":"that moment where Britain voted"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":411.6,"endTime":415.29,"body":"to leave the European Union"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":411.6,"endTime":415.29,"body":"affected their relationship with"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":415.29,"endTime":419.4,"body":"the places they'd settled, but"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":415.29,"endTime":419.4,"body":"also how it transformed their"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":419.4,"endTime":422.04,"body":"understandings of what Britain"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":419.4,"endTime":422.04,"body":"was to them."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":422.07,"endTime":423.87,"body":"So, you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":422.07,"endTime":423.87,"body":"mentioned people's sense of what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":423.87,"endTime":427.08,"body":"it means to be British. I know"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":423.87,"endTime":427.08,"body":"there's so much on TV about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":427.08,"endTime":431.13,"body":"home, both in the UK but also"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":427.08,"endTime":431.13,"body":"around the world. I know where I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":431.13,"endTime":435.18,"body":"am, there are a lot of shows"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":431.13,"endTime":435.18,"body":"about celebrities making their"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":435.18,"endTime":438.24,"body":"own renovations, selling houses"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":435.18,"endTime":438.24,"body":"for profit."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":438.51,"endTime":440.94,"body":"Yeah, we've got"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":438.51,"endTime":440.94,"body":"those in Australia as well, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":440.94,"endTime":445.05,"body":"I have to say, I'm currently"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":440.94,"endTime":445.05,"body":"obsessed with a home renovation"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":445.05,"endTime":450.03,"body":"show on YouTube actually. I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":445.05,"endTime":450.03,"body":"watching it every night. I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":450.03,"endTime":450.93,"body":"embarrassed to admit."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":451.05,"endTime":453.18,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":451.05,"endTime":453.18,"body":"really common, Rosie. I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":453.18,"endTime":458.94,"body":"this is how I started out in my"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":453.18,"endTime":458.94,"body":"research, really, when I was in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":458.94,"endTime":463.89,"body":"the early stages of my PhD,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":458.94,"endTime":463.89,"body":"noticing how prolific those"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":463.89,"endTime":466.47,"body":"television programmes have"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":463.89,"endTime":466.47,"body":"become. And this is in the early"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":466.5,"endTime":471.6,"body":"2000s. And asking myself, well,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":466.5,"endTime":471.6,"body":"what, what's going on here? I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":471.6,"endTime":474.24,"body":"mean, now they've just become so"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":471.6,"endTime":474.24,"body":"commonplace, there are millions"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":474.24,"endTime":474.84,"body":"of them."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":474.93,"endTime":477.27,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":474.93,"endTime":477.27,"body":"it's interesting. Do you think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":477.81,"endTime":480.9,"body":"maybe it's appealing to some"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":477.81,"endTime":480.9,"body":"kind of anxiety that we share"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":480.9,"endTime":482.25,"body":"about place and belonging?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":482.34,"endTime":486.03,"body":"For me, I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":482.34,"endTime":486.03,"body":"that actually, yes, there is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":486.03,"endTime":489.15,"body":"that kind of kind of voyeuristic"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":486.03,"endTime":489.15,"body":"side of things, isn't there,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":489.15,"endTime":492.15,"body":"where we kind of want to have a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":489.15,"endTime":492.15,"body":"look and see what other"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":492.15,"endTime":496.05,"body":"possibilities are out there. You"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":492.15,"endTime":496.05,"body":"know, those shows are absolutely"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":496.05,"endTime":501.24,"body":"rife with kind of dreams of an"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":496.05,"endTime":501.24,"body":"ideal life. I mean, it kind of,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":501.27,"endTime":504.78,"body":"in a way, it goes back to those"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":501.27,"endTime":504.78,"body":"conversations about the \"ideal"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":504.81,"endTime":509.34,"body":"home\" that were happening in the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":504.81,"endTime":509.34,"body":"1990s, which were to do with,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":509.4,"endTime":513.0,"body":"you know, making a particular"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":509.4,"endTime":513.0,"body":"type of domestic space. But I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":513.0,"endTime":515.76,"body":"think that the other thing about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":513.0,"endTime":515.76,"body":"it, the proliferation of these"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":515.76,"endTime":520.92,"body":"shows, really speaks to me about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":515.76,"endTime":520.92,"body":"how over the course of the last"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":520.95,"endTime":526.35,"body":"20-30 years or so, properties"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":520.95,"endTime":526.35,"body":"become really fetishized. It's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":526.35,"endTime":530.55,"body":"no longer just about, you know,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":526.35,"endTime":530.55,"body":"having a place to live and to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":530.55,"endTime":534.75,"body":"settle, which, you know, we all,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":530.55,"endTime":534.75,"body":"we all need that. It's something"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":534.75,"endTime":537.93,"body":"about the kind of aesthetics,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":534.75,"endTime":537.93,"body":"the kind of lifestyle that you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":537.93,"endTime":540.45,"body":"can cultivate in and through"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":537.93,"endTime":540.45,"body":"your home."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":540.72,"endTime":543.24,"body":"What you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":540.72,"endTime":543.24,"body":"mention here about dreaming an"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":543.24,"endTime":546.51,"body":"ideal life and kind of like this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":543.24,"endTime":546.51,"body":"fetishization, like really"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":546.51,"endTime":552.18,"body":"focusing on, on home as, as this"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":546.51,"endTime":552.18,"body":"element of lifestyle is quite"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":552.18,"endTime":556.38,"body":"interesting. In a bit we'll hear"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":552.18,"endTime":556.38,"body":"from activists trying to give a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":556.38,"endTime":559.98,"body":"whole new meaning to home in one"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":556.38,"endTime":559.98,"body":"of the world's most expensive"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":559.98,"endTime":563.7,"body":"cities, London. But first time"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":559.98,"endTime":563.7,"body":"for a word from our producer,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":563.7,"endTime":564.27,"body":"Alice."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":568.65,"endTime":571.26,"body":"Hi there, you're"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":568.65,"endTime":571.26,"body":"listening to Uncommon Sense from"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":571.26,"endTime":574.53,"body":"The Sociological Review, where"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":571.26,"endTime":574.53,"body":"we take a sideways look at the"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":574.56,"endTime":577.65,"body":"taken-for-granted norms and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":574.56,"endTime":577.65,"body":"ideas that shape our world"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":577.86,"endTime":580.86,"body":"through a sharp sociological"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":577.86,"endTime":580.86,"body":"lens. We're all about"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":580.86,"endTime":584.04,"body":"challenging everyday thinking"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":580.86,"endTime":584.04,"body":"and intervening in our current"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":584.04,"endTime":588.12,"body":"crises to imagine and perhaps"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":584.04,"endTime":588.12,"body":"even to create a better world."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":588.75,"endTime":591.72,"body":"If you like what you're hearing,"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":588.75,"endTime":591.72,"body":"just take five seconds to press"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":591.72,"endTime":595.32,"body":"pause now in whatever app you're"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":591.72,"endTime":595.32,"body":"using, and hit Subscribe. It"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":595.32,"endTime":598.5,"body":"takes just a few seconds and it"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":595.32,"endTime":598.5,"body":"really does help us to make more"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":598.5,"endTime":602.13,"body":"episodes for you. And why not"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":598.5,"endTime":602.13,"body":"share the show with the student"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":602.13,"endTime":605.49,"body":"or the season critic in your"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":602.13,"endTime":605.49,"body":"life? Remember, you really don't"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":605.49,"endTime":609.06,"body":"have to be a sociologist to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":605.49,"endTime":609.06,"body":"think like one. Just head to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":609.09,"endTime":612.6,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org, where"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":609.09,"endTime":612.6,"body":"you'll also find recommended"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":612.6,"endTime":616.74,"body":"reading from journal articles to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":612.6,"endTime":616.74,"body":"films, novels and music too, for"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":616.74,"endTime":618.96,"body":"every single episode. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":616.74,"endTime":618.96,"body":"listening."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":622.14,"endTime":625.2,"body":"Okay, back to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":622.14,"endTime":625.2,"body":"home. Michaela, one group you've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":625.2,"endTime":629.67,"body":"met through your work is RUSS."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":625.2,"endTime":629.67,"body":"That's the Rural Urban Synthesis"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":629.67,"endTime":633.45,"body":"Society. Based in London,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":629.67,"endTime":633.45,"body":"they're working to make"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":633.45,"endTime":637.26,"body":"sustainable community-led and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":633.45,"endTime":637.26,"body":"truly affordable neighbourhoods"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":637.26,"endTime":639.84,"body":"that will stay that way for the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":637.26,"endTime":639.84,"body":"long term. In short, they're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":639.84,"endTime":642.09,"body":"what's called a Community Land"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":639.84,"endTime":642.09,"body":"Trust."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":642.12,"endTime":645.39,"body":"Yeah, so, as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":642.12,"endTime":645.39,"body":"CLT, RUSS's founding chair was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":645.39,"endTime":648.93,"body":"Kareem Dayes who grew up on a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":645.39,"endTime":648.93,"body":"street called Walters Way, where"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":648.93,"endTime":652.23,"body":"his family was one of a group"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":648.93,"endTime":652.23,"body":"who built their own timber frame"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":652.23,"endTime":655.47,"body":"homes in the 80s. It was part of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":652.23,"endTime":655.47,"body":"a radical council-backed"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":655.5,"endTime":658.86,"body":"self-build project, using the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":655.5,"endTime":658.86,"body":"methods of architect Walter"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":658.86,"endTime":659.43,"body":"Segal."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":659.49,"endTime":662.31,"body":"And right now,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":659.49,"endTime":662.31,"body":"RUSS is working to provide 36"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":662.34,"endTime":666.18,"body":"truly affordable new homes at a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":662.34,"endTime":666.18,"body":"site called Church Grove in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":666.18,"endTime":669.99,"body":"Lewisham, a part of South London"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":666.18,"endTime":669.99,"body":"where average house prices are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":669.99,"endTime":674.61,"body":"around half a million pounds. So"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":669.99,"endTime":674.61,"body":"let's hear from two people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":674.61,"endTime":676.29,"body":"who've been part of the RUSS"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":674.61,"endTime":676.29,"body":"story."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":679.41,"endTime":682.38,"body":"So, yeah, my name is"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":679.41,"endTime":682.38,"body":"Kwame, I was the co-chair of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":682.38,"endTime":686.37,"body":"RUSS. I'm born and bred in"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":682.38,"endTime":686.37,"body":"Lewisham. I'm like a real local"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":686.37,"endTime":690.72,"body":"boy. I went away to university"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":686.37,"endTime":690.72,"body":"and studied, and I came back."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":690.78,"endTime":693.78,"body":"And I was wanting to find a way"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":690.78,"endTime":693.78,"body":"to get involved with the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":693.78,"endTime":696.03,"body":"community I was from and the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":693.78,"endTime":696.03,"body":"area I was from, and I've seen a"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":696.03,"endTime":700.95,"body":"lot of changes happening. And I"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":696.03,"endTime":700.95,"body":"actually had my first kind of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":700.95,"endTime":704.22,"body":"full time job on a council"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":700.95,"endTime":704.22,"body":"estate of the Old Kent Road. So,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":704.22,"endTime":708.0,"body":"I was working for the City of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":704.22,"endTime":708.0,"body":"London, and I did it for a year"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":708.0,"endTime":710.49,"body":"and I just became quite"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":708.0,"endTime":710.49,"body":"disillusioned. But it was about,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":710.49,"endTime":712.92,"body":"I guess, the system and the way"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":710.49,"endTime":712.92,"body":"that the system didn't really"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":712.92,"endTime":718.2,"body":"speak to a lot of their needs."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":712.92,"endTime":718.2,"body":"And then, I did another job that"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":718.2,"endTime":722.49,"body":"was unrelated, but I also joined"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":718.2,"endTime":722.49,"body":"RUSS. So, my parents are friends"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":722.49,"endTime":727.53,"body":"with Kareem's parents, and I"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":722.49,"endTime":727.53,"body":"went to Walters Way a lot as a"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":727.53,"endTime":730.83,"body":"child. And I didn't really know"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":727.53,"endTime":730.83,"body":"it was self-built, I didn't know"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":730.83,"endTime":734.67,"body":"it was community-led housing. I"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":730.83,"endTime":734.67,"body":"just thought it was amazing."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":734.67,"endTime":737.85,"body":"They just had its own vibe, it"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":734.67,"endTime":737.85,"body":"just felt very different to the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":737.85,"endTime":742.2,"body":"kind of other streets in the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":737.85,"endTime":742.2,"body":"area. And I think that just"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":742.2,"endTime":746.31,"body":"stayed with me. And I think when"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":742.2,"endTime":746.31,"body":"that RUSS kind of opportunity"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":746.31,"endTime":749.88,"body":"came back up, and when I kind of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":746.31,"endTime":749.88,"body":"got involved with RUSS, that was"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":749.88,"endTime":751.59,"body":"somewhere in the back of my"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":749.88,"endTime":751.59,"body":"mind, was that there were"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":751.59,"endTime":753.27,"body":"alternative ways to live in"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":751.59,"endTime":753.27,"body":"London."},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":753.48,"endTime":757.68,"body":"My name is Alice."},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":753.48,"endTime":757.68,"body":"I also used to be a trustee of"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":757.68,"endTime":762.93,"body":"RUSS. I live in Walters Way, and"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":757.68,"endTime":762.93,"body":"one of my neighbours was Kareem"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":762.93,"endTime":766.41,"body":"Dayes and his parents. And"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":762.93,"endTime":766.41,"body":"through that connection, I heard"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":766.41,"endTime":770.94,"body":"about RUSS and that Kareem was"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":766.41,"endTime":770.94,"body":"setting up a new housing project"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":770.94,"endTime":774.39,"body":"inspired by Walters Way. And I"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":770.94,"endTime":774.39,"body":"just thought that sounded like a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":774.39,"endTime":778.65,"body":"brilliant idea because, living"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":774.39,"endTime":778.65,"body":"in Walters Way, I knew that it"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":778.65,"endTime":781.35,"body":"was possible to form housing"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":778.65,"endTime":781.35,"body":"development that had a really"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":781.35,"endTime":787.14,"body":"good strong community and it"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":781.35,"endTime":787.14,"body":"could be affordable. The way"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":787.14,"endTime":790.17,"body":"that Kareem designed it was"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":787.14,"endTime":790.17,"body":"setting it up as a Community"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":790.17,"endTime":796.11,"body":"Land Trust, which means that the"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":790.17,"endTime":796.11,"body":"land is owned by a trust, rather"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":796.11,"endTime":799.92,"body":"than by individual homeowners,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":796.11,"endTime":799.92,"body":"which means that there's a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":799.92,"endTime":804.63,"body":"chance for the homes to stay"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":799.92,"endTime":804.63,"body":"affordable, rather than be sold"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":804.75,"endTime":808.92,"body":"and then end up on the housing"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":804.75,"endTime":808.92,"body":"market. I actually remember in"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":808.92,"endTime":813.84,"body":"the 1990s – that's when I first"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":808.92,"endTime":813.84,"body":"heard about people of my age"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":813.84,"endTime":816.57,"body":"buying a home – and I do"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":813.84,"endTime":816.57,"body":"remember a friend who had a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":816.57,"endTime":821.97,"body":"salary of 15,000 buying a home"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":816.57,"endTime":821.97,"body":"in one of the outer suburbs of"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":821.97,"endTime":825.42,"body":"London. And she got a mortgage,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":821.97,"endTime":825.42,"body":"which was three times her"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":825.42,"endTime":830.85,"body":"salary, which was 45,000 pounds."},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":825.42,"endTime":830.85,"body":"So, it was perfectly within the"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":830.85,"endTime":835.74,"body":"imagination of me and my peers"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":830.85,"endTime":835.74,"body":"to, to own a home. A few years"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":835.74,"endTime":840.72,"body":"later, I then also bought a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":835.74,"endTime":840.72,"body":"home. So, because of having that"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":840.72,"endTime":844.14,"body":"opportunity, with house prices"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":840.72,"endTime":844.14,"body":"being so much lower in relation"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":844.14,"endTime":847.65,"body":"to an annual salary, I was able"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":844.14,"endTime":847.65,"body":"to get on that property ladder."},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":847.83,"endTime":850.29,"body":"And I think the problem is,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":847.83,"endTime":850.29,"body":"today, that the prices are so"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":850.29,"endTime":853.44,"body":"high compared to salaries that,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":850.29,"endTime":853.44,"body":"unless you already own a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":853.44,"endTime":858.09,"body":"property, the chances of buying"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":853.44,"endTime":858.09,"body":"a property seem to be very"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":858.09,"endTime":858.9,"body":"remote."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":859.29,"endTime":864.18,"body":"I think it's really"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":859.29,"endTime":864.18,"body":"strange to hear that there was"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":864.18,"endTime":867.33,"body":"ever a time when people could"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":864.18,"endTime":867.33,"body":"afford to buy a home. And it's"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":867.33,"endTime":870.6,"body":"like almost unthinkable, I"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":867.33,"endTime":870.6,"body":"think, for a lot of people my"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":870.6,"endTime":876.75,"body":"age in London to ever aspire to"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":870.6,"endTime":876.75,"body":"that. And I think that's really"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":876.75,"endTime":880.86,"body":"really difficult as a young"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":876.75,"endTime":880.86,"body":"person, and, I think, to not"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":880.86,"endTime":883.59,"body":"ever kind of foresee yourself"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":880.86,"endTime":883.59,"body":"having that security and, like,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":883.59,"endTime":886.98,"body":"a place in the city you're from,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":883.59,"endTime":886.98,"body":"I think, is like a really"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":886.98,"endTime":890.04,"body":"strange thing to sort of grow"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":886.98,"endTime":890.04,"body":"into. And that's definitely a"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":890.04,"endTime":892.05,"body":"big reason why I got on board"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":890.04,"endTime":892.05,"body":"with RUSS. And I think the other"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":892.05,"endTime":895.14,"body":"thing I'd say as well is just"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":892.05,"endTime":895.14,"body":"that once I think it is a"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":895.14,"endTime":898.92,"body":"generational problem, I think"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":895.14,"endTime":898.92,"body":"it's also to do with the kind of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":898.92,"endTime":904.2,"body":"way land prices and the prices"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":898.92,"endTime":904.2,"body":"of homes in London is just so"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":904.2,"endTime":908.16,"body":"massively inflated. Because the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":904.2,"endTime":908.16,"body":"economy in this country is just"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":908.16,"endTime":911.46,"body":"so imbalanced. And it's also to"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":908.16,"endTime":911.46,"body":"do with the global ... The"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":911.46,"endTime":914.1,"body":"global nature of investment in"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":911.46,"endTime":914.1,"body":"London as well, I think, is a"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":914.1,"endTime":916.98,"body":"big reason why people might"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":914.1,"endTime":916.98,"body":"can't afford to live in places"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":916.98,"endTime":919.95,"body":"they're from. And I just think"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":916.98,"endTime":919.95,"body":"London as a city is almost"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":919.95,"endTime":924.06,"body":"losing, very quickly – I think"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":919.95,"endTime":924.06,"body":"every city changes – but I think"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":924.06,"endTime":928.32,"body":"London is just losing the people"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":924.06,"endTime":928.32,"body":"that made the city what it was."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":928.53,"endTime":931.95,"body":"And that's, I just think the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":928.53,"endTime":931.95,"body":"massive thing for policymakers"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":931.95,"endTime":935.19,"body":"to think about. I don't think"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":931.95,"endTime":935.19,"body":"I'd blame an older generation"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":935.19,"endTime":938.43,"body":"necessarily, I just blame people"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":935.19,"endTime":938.43,"body":"who have that kind of power to"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":938.43,"endTime":940.98,"body":"change the bigger structures. I"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":938.43,"endTime":940.98,"body":"don't know what you think about"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":940.98,"endTime":943.89,"body":"that, Alice? I don't know if you"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":940.98,"endTime":943.89,"body":"kind of feel any guilt, or if"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":943.89,"endTime":946.5,"body":"you feel any responsibility, or"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":943.89,"endTime":946.5,"body":"you think it's a bigger problem?"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":947.19,"endTime":950.52,"body":"I don't really"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":947.19,"endTime":950.52,"body":"feel guilt, because at the time,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":951.0,"endTime":954.36,"body":"in the 1990s, it was possible"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":951.0,"endTime":954.36,"body":"for someone, you know, at a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":954.36,"endTime":959.1,"body":"regular job to buy a property. I"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":954.36,"endTime":959.1,"body":"guess we, we didn't know that"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":959.1,"endTime":962.79,"body":"prices were going to shoot up so"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":959.1,"endTime":962.79,"body":"hugely and that houses would"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":962.79,"endTime":965.58,"body":"then become completely"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":962.79,"endTime":965.58,"body":"unaffordable. I suppose, looking"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":965.58,"endTime":971.79,"body":"at the factors that cause those"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":965.58,"endTime":971.79,"body":"prices to inflate, I think"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":971.79,"endTime":975.66,"body":"that's something that was really"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":971.79,"endTime":975.66,"body":"out of my hands. And is to do,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":975.69,"endTime":978.6,"body":"more to do with sort of"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":975.69,"endTime":978.6,"body":"international finance rather"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":978.6,"endTime":983.88,"body":"than sort of regular people who"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":978.6,"endTime":983.88,"body":"were really just buying a place"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":983.88,"endTime":988.62,"body":"to live. I know there is also"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":983.88,"endTime":988.62,"body":"the question of gentrification."},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":989.4,"endTime":998.07,"body":"And by moving into areas that"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":989.4,"endTime":998.07,"body":"were relatively cheap, and"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":998.07,"endTime":1001.52,"body":"buying a property that does push"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":998.07,"endTime":1001.52,"body":"the price up. So in that sense,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1001.52,"endTime":1005.66,"body":"then I am guilty. In that sense,"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1001.52,"endTime":1005.66,"body":"because Walters Way was"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1005.66,"endTime":1008.51,"body":"initially a social housing"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1005.66,"endTime":1008.51,"body":"project. It was for people who"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1008.51,"endTime":1012.17,"body":"were in housing need. What"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1008.51,"endTime":1012.17,"body":"happened was with Right to Buy"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1012.17,"endTime":1015.41,"body":"and Leasehold Reform, the people"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1012.17,"endTime":1015.41,"body":"who built their own houses – the"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1015.41,"endTime":1020.09,"body":"self-builders, they owned their"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1015.41,"endTime":1020.09,"body":"houses – the majority sold their"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1020.09,"endTime":1023.69,"body":"houses privately on the on the"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1020.09,"endTime":1023.69,"body":"private housing market. I"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1023.69,"endTime":1026.87,"body":"remember when I first looked"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1023.69,"endTime":1026.87,"body":"around Walters Way, it was"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1026.9,"endTime":1030.98,"body":"definitely marketed as being"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1026.9,"endTime":1030.98,"body":"cheaper than other houses, and"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1031.34,"endTime":1035.24,"body":"Walter Segal and his houses were"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1031.34,"endTime":1035.24,"body":"not known about at all. Those"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1035.24,"endTime":1040.19,"body":"houses now exchange hands at a"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1035.24,"endTime":1040.19,"body":"very high price. Something that"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1040.19,"endTime":1044.48,"body":"was initially affordable social"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1040.19,"endTime":1044.48,"body":"housing no longer is. And I"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1044.48,"endTime":1047.06,"body":"think that's why, with RUSS, it"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1044.48,"endTime":1047.06,"body":"was set up as a Community Land"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1047.06,"endTime":1049.67,"body":"Trust to ensure that that"},{"speaker":"Alice Grahame","startTime":1047.06,"endTime":1049.67,"body":"wouldn't happen in the future."},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1050.57,"endTime":1053.6,"body":"So much of what made"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1050.57,"endTime":1053.6,"body":"London great, and what still"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1053.6,"endTime":1056.84,"body":"makes London great, is just its"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1053.6,"endTime":1056.84,"body":"diversity, and that's like in so"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1056.84,"endTime":1059.9,"body":"many forms. It's, like, in terms"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1056.84,"endTime":1059.9,"body":"of, like, places and the kind of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1059.9,"endTime":1063.23,"body":"character of places, London's"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1059.9,"endTime":1063.23,"body":"like a city of kind of towns"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1063.23,"endTime":1068.18,"body":"almost. And um, I just think the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1063.23,"endTime":1068.18,"body":"way that we're developing in"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1068.18,"endTime":1071.09,"body":"terms of, like, the kinds of,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1068.18,"endTime":1071.09,"body":"like, houses we're building, the"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1071.09,"endTime":1074.18,"body":"kind of affordability of them"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1071.09,"endTime":1074.18,"body":"and the kind of the limitations"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1074.18,"endTime":1077.81,"body":"and the kinds of people that can"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1074.18,"endTime":1077.81,"body":"live in them, that's just making"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1077.81,"endTime":1081.83,"body":"London not as vibrant or as"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1077.81,"endTime":1081.83,"body":"interesting and as creative as"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1081.83,"endTime":1084.83,"body":"well. And so much has come out"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1081.83,"endTime":1084.83,"body":"of London, I think, because of"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1084.83,"endTime":1088.25,"body":"that, and so much may not come"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1084.83,"endTime":1088.25,"body":"out of it because of that. And"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1088.25,"endTime":1092.3,"body":"so, for me, I felt like, whilst"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1088.25,"endTime":1092.3,"body":"I could always live in London,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1092.63,"endTime":1097.34,"body":"it might not always provide me"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1092.63,"endTime":1097.34,"body":"with what I feel like it has up"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1097.34,"endTime":1100.76,"body":"until this point. And I think I"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1097.34,"endTime":1100.76,"body":"could say the same for, for a"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1100.76,"endTime":1104.54,"body":"lot of my peers who grew up in"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1100.76,"endTime":1104.54,"body":"the kind of area that I grew up"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1104.54,"endTime":1108.17,"body":"in. So, yeah, that's kind of how"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1104.54,"endTime":1108.17,"body":"I see it going. And I hope that,"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1108.17,"endTime":1111.86,"body":"yeah, that organisations like"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1108.17,"endTime":1111.86,"body":"RUSS can, can make a difference"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1111.86,"endTime":1114.98,"body":"in in kind of halting that or"},{"speaker":"Kwame Lowe","startTime":1111.86,"endTime":1114.98,"body":"reversing it at least."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1118.88,"endTime":1121.49,"body":"Kwame Lowe"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1118.88,"endTime":1121.49,"body":"and Alice Grahame discussing"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1121.49,"endTime":1122.39,"body":"housing in London."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1122.48,"endTime":1125.36,"body":"Michaela, you've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1122.48,"endTime":1125.36,"body":"studied self-build in the UK."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1125.45,"endTime":1129.8,"body":"That's people who take DIY to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1125.45,"endTime":1129.8,"body":"the next level and build their"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1129.8,"endTime":1134.33,"body":"own place. That is, I think, how"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1129.8,"endTime":1134.33,"body":"you came to know RUSS? I know"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1134.33,"endTime":1137.99,"body":"that when I was in my 20s I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1134.33,"endTime":1137.99,"body":"never even stopped to think that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1137.99,"endTime":1141.95,"body":"I might be able to buy my own"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1137.99,"endTime":1141.95,"body":"home, let alone actually build"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1141.95,"endTime":1146.84,"body":"it. So, if I wanted to pull off"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1141.95,"endTime":1146.84,"body":"building my own home, what kind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1146.84,"endTime":1151.19,"body":"of resources would I need? And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1146.84,"endTime":1151.19,"body":"to be honest, why would someone"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1151.19,"endTime":1152.06,"body":"even want to?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1152.51,"endTime":1154.73,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1152.51,"endTime":1154.73,"body":"a really important question,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1154.73,"endTime":1159.17,"body":"Rosie. Building your own house,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1154.73,"endTime":1159.17,"body":"particularly through a kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1165.35,"body":"community-led scheme is a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1159.2,"endTime":1165.35,"body":"possibly affordable way of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1165.35,"endTime":1169.73,"body":"getting your own home. Now, I've"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1165.35,"endTime":1169.73,"body":"got big quotation marks around"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1169.73,"endTime":1172.19,"body":"everything that I've said it"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1169.73,"endTime":1172.19,"body":"because, you know, in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1172.19,"endTime":1175.82,"body":"introducing this, you also"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1172.19,"endTime":1175.82,"body":"talked about how London is one"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1175.82,"endTime":1180.77,"body":"of the most unaffordable places"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1175.82,"endTime":1180.77,"body":"in the world. And where we see"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1180.8,"endTime":1184.7,"body":"something like self-build really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1180.8,"endTime":1184.7,"body":"working for people who can't"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1184.7,"endTime":1190.34,"body":"afford to get into housing is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1184.7,"endTime":1190.34,"body":"actually in parts of the Global"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1190.34,"endTime":1193.94,"body":"South. I mean, it's been a very,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1190.34,"endTime":1193.94,"body":"very long tradition of where"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1193.94,"endTime":1196.61,"body":"people are struggling with"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1193.94,"endTime":1196.61,"body":"housing that they've gone away"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1196.61,"endTime":1200.87,"body":"and they've built their own."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1196.61,"endTime":1200.87,"body":"Now, in the UK, we've got a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1200.87,"endTime":1204.29,"body":"really long running series about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1200.87,"endTime":1204.29,"body":"people building their own homes"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1204.29,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"– Grand Designs – and I used to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1204.29,"endTime":1207.41,"body":"love this show."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1207.74,"endTime":1208.25,"body":"So do I."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1210.2,"endTime":1212.0,"body":"I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1210.2,"endTime":1212.0,"body":"they've got like Grand Designs"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1212.03,"endTime":1213.26,"body":"Australia as well."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1213.59,"endTime":1213.65,"body":"Yeah."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1213.89,"endTime":1216.26,"body":"It's about,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1213.89,"endTime":1216.26,"body":"like, these kind of seemingly"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1216.26,"endTime":1220.1,"body":"completely impossible projects"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1216.26,"endTime":1220.1,"body":"that people take on. And you,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1220.13,"endTime":1223.34,"body":"you know, towards the end, it"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1220.13,"endTime":1223.34,"body":"all comes good. But you see the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1223.34,"endTime":1227.42,"body":"struggle. What I think we're"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1223.34,"endTime":1227.42,"body":"seeing when we see that struggle"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1227.45,"endTime":1233.27,"body":"in those programmes is actually"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1227.45,"endTime":1233.27,"body":"how housing markets in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1233.27,"endTime":1238.25,"body":"places – the UK is one of them –"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1233.27,"endTime":1238.25,"body":"are really not set up for people"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1238.25,"endTime":1241.67,"body":"to build their own homes. So"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1238.25,"endTime":1241.67,"body":"there are lots of impediments."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1242.21,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"First of all, in the UK, its"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1242.21,"endTime":1245.24,"body":"land that's really expensive,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1248.03,"body":"that's prohibitive to most"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1245.24,"endTime":1248.03,"body":"people in terms of building"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1248.03,"endTime":1251.48,"body":"their own homes. And then it"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1248.03,"endTime":1251.48,"body":"goes down into things like, you"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1251.48,"endTime":1254.81,"body":"how do you even find the"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1251.48,"endTime":1254.81,"body":"people who would do the work on"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1254.81,"endTime":1259.37,"body":"those houses? There's a lot of"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1254.81,"endTime":1259.37,"body":"time and energy that would need"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1259.37,"endTime":1262.67,"body":"to go into building your own"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1259.37,"endTime":1262.67,"body":"home, if you were going to do it"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1262.67,"endTime":1265.19,"body":"as an individual. If you're"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1262.67,"endTime":1265.19,"body":"going to try and do it as a"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1265.19,"endTime":1270.71,"body":"community, this could provide"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1265.19,"endTime":1270.71,"body":"support, it can provide a way of"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1271.01,"endTime":1274.46,"body":"championing a kind of"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1271.01,"endTime":1274.46,"body":"community-led programme, which,"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1274.46,"endTime":1277.85,"body":"you know, as in the case of"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1274.46,"endTime":1277.85,"body":"Lewisham, can result in some"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1277.85,"endTime":1281.93,"body":"backing from kind of local"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1277.85,"endTime":1281.93,"body":"government. But again, it's time"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1281.93,"endTime":1285.2,"body":"and energy, and a certain degree"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1281.93,"endTime":1285.2,"body":"of what we could call cultural"},{"speaker":"capital, you know","startTime":1285.2,"endTime":1287.84,"body":"how are you"},{"speaker":"capital, you know","startTime":1285.2,"endTime":1287.84,"body":"going to network with the people"},{"speaker":"capital, you know","startTime":1287.84,"endTime":1290.81,"body":"that you need to network with to"},{"speaker":"capital, you know","startTime":1287.84,"endTime":1290.81,"body":"make something like this happen?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1290.96,"endTime":1293.48,"body":"I think that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1290.96,"endTime":1293.48,"body":"really interesting, Michaela."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1293.48,"endTime":1296.54,"body":"Particularly this idea that you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1293.48,"endTime":1296.54,"body":"need some kind of cultural or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1296.54,"endTime":1301.82,"body":"social capital – I think that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1296.54,"endTime":1301.82,"body":"really true. I, I research"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1301.82,"endTime":1308.09,"body":"grassroots activism in my own"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1301.82,"endTime":1308.09,"body":"work, and I find that a lot of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1308.09,"endTime":1311.24,"body":"my own activists, the more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1308.09,"endTime":1311.24,"body":"successful groups are groups"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1311.24,"endTime":1314.33,"body":"that come with that kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1311.24,"endTime":1314.33,"body":"capital. So, in my case, that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1314.36,"endTime":1318.5,"body":"people that have particular"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1314.36,"endTime":1318.5,"body":"levels of education, they don't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1318.5,"endTime":1322.94,"body":"have the wealth in order to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1318.5,"endTime":1322.94,"body":"dedicate time to projects. Is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1322.94,"endTime":1325.31,"body":"this the kind of thing you're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1322.94,"endTime":1325.31,"body":"talking about in this context as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1325.31,"endTime":1325.67,"body":"well?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1325.82,"endTime":1328.31,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1325.82,"endTime":1328.31,"body":"that's definitely important. And"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1328.31,"endTime":1332.45,"body":"certainly when you start to work"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1328.31,"endTime":1332.45,"body":"with, well, the work that I did"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1332.45,"endTime":1336.02,"body":"with those community groups, so"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1332.45,"endTime":1336.02,"body":"RUSS was one of them – actually,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1336.02,"endTime":1338.81,"body":"they were only just starting out"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1336.02,"endTime":1338.81,"body":"when I was doing that research,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1339.17,"endTime":1342.08,"body":"but I've been working with other"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1339.17,"endTime":1342.08,"body":"community groups as well."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1342.41,"endTime":1346.1,"body":"Actually, some of the early work"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1342.41,"endTime":1346.1,"body":"they had to do was to actually"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1346.1,"endTime":1351.26,"body":"kind of pool those kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1346.1,"endTime":1351.26,"body":"networks, pool that kind of, you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1351.26,"endTime":1354.77,"body":"know, the kind of skills and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1351.26,"endTime":1354.77,"body":"knowledge base that they had,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1355.04,"endTime":1358.16,"body":"and kind of think about who"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1355.04,"endTime":1358.16,"body":"could be best positioned in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1358.16,"endTime":1363.74,"body":"order to navigate what is a very"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1358.16,"endTime":1363.74,"body":"complicated environment to build"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1363.74,"endTime":1367.13,"body":"those things up. But I think"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1363.74,"endTime":1367.13,"body":"that the other thing is, you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1367.13,"endTime":1369.71,"body":"know, we can't really talk about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1367.13,"endTime":1369.71,"body":"this in London without talking"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1369.71,"endTime":1373.22,"body":"about money. Money is really,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1369.71,"endTime":1373.22,"body":"really important, because as I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1373.22,"endTime":1377.24,"body":"said, land is incredibly"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1373.22,"endTime":1377.24,"body":"expensive. And the final thing I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1377.24,"endTime":1380.99,"body":"would say is time, these things"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1377.24,"endTime":1380.99,"body":"take a really really long time."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1380.99,"endTime":1384.35,"body":"So, I did that research in the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1380.99,"endTime":1384.35,"body":"early ... well, I finished that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1384.35,"endTime":1387.71,"body":"research in 2015, and RUSS are"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1384.35,"endTime":1387.71,"body":"still building."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1388.05,"endTime":1389.82,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1388.05,"endTime":1389.82,"body":"interesting. So, those TV shows"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1389.82,"endTime":1394.62,"body":"kind of, they make you feel that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1389.82,"endTime":1394.62,"body":"anyone can do it, and that maybe"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1394.65,"endTime":1397.35,"body":"everyone should do it. I know"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1394.65,"endTime":1397.35,"body":"that working around the house"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1397.35,"endTime":1401.28,"body":"here, I've received a lot of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1397.35,"endTime":1401.28,"body":"help from my partner's father,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1401.61,"endTime":1404.82,"body":"and in the recording, Alice and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1401.61,"endTime":1404.82,"body":"Kwame are candid about the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1404.82,"endTime":1408.36,"body":"differences between generations."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1404.82,"endTime":1408.36,"body":"What do you make of Alice's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1408.36,"endTime":1411.63,"body":"comments on this whole issue of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1408.36,"endTime":1411.63,"body":"responsibility and blame?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1412.25,"endTime":1414.41,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1412.25,"endTime":1414.41,"body":"when we, you know ... So, I'm in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1414.41,"endTime":1419.48,"body":"my 40s, and I think about what"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1414.41,"endTime":1419.48,"body":"my parents were able to afford"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1419.48,"endTime":1423.2,"body":"to do. And then I think about"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1419.48,"endTime":1423.2,"body":"what I'm able to afford to do."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1423.59,"endTime":1426.56,"body":"And then I think about what my"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1423.59,"endTime":1426.56,"body":"sisters are able to afford to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1426.56,"endTime":1429.65,"body":"do. And there are notable"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1426.56,"endTime":1429.65,"body":"differences. But I think what's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1429.65,"endTime":1433.58,"body":"really important about this, is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1429.65,"endTime":1433.58,"body":"that rather than thinking okay,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1433.61,"endTime":1437.3,"body":"well, you know, that this is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1433.61,"endTime":1437.3,"body":"caused by some kind of selfish"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1437.3,"endTime":1441.08,"body":"previous generation, actually,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1437.3,"endTime":1441.08,"body":"we have to ask ourselves the"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1441.08,"endTime":1445.4,"body":"what was available"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1441.08,"endTime":1445.4,"body":"to those, to the people in that"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1445.4,"endTime":1449.24,"body":"generation? What was the kind of"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1445.4,"endTime":1449.24,"body":"normative expectations about"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1449.24,"endTime":1451.94,"body":"what they should do? And what"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1449.24,"endTime":1451.94,"body":"were the opportunities that they"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1451.94,"endTime":1455.48,"body":"had? They took those"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1451.94,"endTime":1455.48,"body":"opportunities, because the"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1455.48,"endTime":1460.01,"body":"markets enabled them to do it."},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1455.48,"endTime":1460.01,"body":"The market has changed. We're in"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1460.01,"endTime":1463.07,"body":"this kind of a very different"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1460.01,"endTime":1463.07,"body":"political economy of housing,"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1463.7,"endTime":1468.44,"body":"where the costs of everything"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1463.7,"endTime":1468.44,"body":"have gone on. But these are not"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1468.44,"endTime":1471.98,"body":"necessarily caused by"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1468.44,"endTime":1471.98,"body":"individuals. They're caused by a"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1471.98,"endTime":1476.3,"body":"whole variety of factors coming"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1471.98,"endTime":1476.3,"body":"into play. From what the"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1476.3,"endTime":1480.47,"body":"government decides to do, about"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1476.3,"endTime":1480.47,"body":"facilitating people into"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1480.47,"endTime":1484.73,"body":"homeownership. So, you heard"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1480.47,"endTime":1484.73,"body":"Alice there talking about how"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1485.54,"endTime":1489.47,"body":"the Thatcher government in the"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1485.54,"endTime":1489.47,"body":"1980s in the UK introduced this"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1489.47,"endTime":1493.34,"body":"scheme called Right to Buy,"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1489.47,"endTime":1493.34,"body":"which meant that this stock that"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1493.34,"endTime":1498.68,"body":"had been set aside to provide"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1493.34,"endTime":1498.68,"body":"affordable rent for people who"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1498.71,"endTime":1502.31,"body":"couldn't afford to rent through"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1498.71,"endTime":1502.31,"body":"the private sector, actually"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1502.31,"endTime":1505.85,"body":"meant that a lot of that housing"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1502.31,"endTime":1505.85,"body":"stock moved into private"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1505.88,"endTime":1509.75,"body":"ownership. And that's not"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1505.88,"endTime":1509.75,"body":"something that an individual"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1510.08,"endTime":1514.58,"body":"could have necessarily any"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1510.08,"endTime":1514.58,"body":"control over. It's something"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1514.61,"endTime":1517.61,"body":"else. There's those bigger"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1514.61,"endTime":1517.61,"body":"structures, as we'd refer to"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1517.61,"endTime":1521.48,"body":"them in sociology, that really"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1517.61,"endTime":1521.48,"body":"shaped what opportunities are"},{"speaker":"question of","startTime":1521.48,"endTime":1522.32,"body":"available to us."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1522.38,"endTime":1525.53,"body":"So, Michaela, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1522.38,"endTime":1525.53,"body":"mean, you've just said, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1525.53,"endTime":1529.04,"body":"know, individuals versus the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1525.53,"endTime":1529.04,"body":"social structure, right? We"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1529.04,"endTime":1532.04,"body":"shouldn't be focusing on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1529.04,"endTime":1532.04,"body":"individuals. What kinds of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1532.04,"endTime":1537.8,"body":"questions should we be asking,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1532.04,"endTime":1537.8,"body":"as sociologists? Do we even do"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1537.8,"endTime":1538.52,"body":"blame?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1538.79,"endTime":1541.13,"body":"I think it's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1538.79,"endTime":1541.13,"body":"probably worthwhile going back"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1541.13,"endTime":1545.15,"body":"to that idea of DIY. And we've"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1541.13,"endTime":1545.15,"body":"mentioned that a few times while"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1545.15,"endTime":1548.99,"body":"we've been talking about housing"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1545.15,"endTime":1548.99,"body":"– Doing It Yourself – and we"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1548.99,"endTime":1552.89,"body":"need to ask ourselves a question"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1548.99,"endTime":1552.89,"body":"about why, in the current"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1552.89,"endTime":1557.54,"body":"housing market, people are"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1552.89,"endTime":1557.54,"body":"expected to do it themselves?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1557.57,"endTime":1560.9,"body":"What does that mean in terms of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1557.57,"endTime":1560.9,"body":"what is otherwise available to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1560.9,"endTime":1564.32,"body":"them? The kind of social"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1560.9,"endTime":1564.32,"body":"support, the state support that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1564.32,"endTime":1568.25,"body":"we might have seen in previous"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1564.32,"endTime":1568.25,"body":"generations ... So, we kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1568.25,"endTime":1571.88,"body":"have to look at it from that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1568.25,"endTime":1571.88,"body":"perspective, I think. I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1571.88,"endTime":1575.99,"body":"realise that I've just avoided"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1571.88,"endTime":1575.99,"body":"the question about blame. But I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1575.99,"endTime":1579.38,"body":"think it's, I think it really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1575.99,"endTime":1579.38,"body":"is, it's like a question of like"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1579.38,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"saying \"okay, well ...\" If we"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1579.38,"endTime":1583.76,"body":"focus too much on individuals"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1588.14,"body":"and their actions, I think we"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1583.76,"endTime":1588.14,"body":"can miss the broader absence of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1588.14,"endTime":1592.34,"body":"those structures, which might"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1588.14,"endTime":1592.34,"body":"support people to do something"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1592.34,"endTime":1596.09,"body":"otherwise. You know, markets"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1592.34,"endTime":1596.09,"body":"don't function on their own."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1596.12,"endTime":1599.87,"body":"They're not autonomous. They are"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1596.12,"endTime":1599.87,"body":"curated and constructed by"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1599.87,"endTime":1603.35,"body":"governments and other types of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1599.87,"endTime":1603.35,"body":"stakeholders to make money for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1603.35,"endTime":1608.63,"body":"some people. And actually, yes,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1603.35,"endTime":1608.63,"body":"the individual person who owns a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1608.63,"endTime":1613.7,"body":"house might have made money in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1608.63,"endTime":1613.7,"body":"that particular way. But I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1613.7,"endTime":1616.91,"body":"actually think we have to ask"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1613.7,"endTime":1616.91,"body":"about who the big winners are in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1616.91,"endTime":1617.96,"body":"that situation."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1618.11,"endTime":1621.86,"body":"Right. Okay. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1618.11,"endTime":1621.86,"body":"not the individual, the social"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1621.86,"endTime":1626.03,"body":"structure, but then also, who"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1621.86,"endTime":1626.03,"body":"wins and who loses."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1626.24,"endTime":1626.96,"body":"Exactly."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1627.02,"endTime":1629.9,"body":"So, one of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1627.02,"endTime":1629.9,"body":"reasons that we wanted to start"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1629.9,"endTime":1634.25,"body":"this podcast is that there are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1629.9,"endTime":1634.25,"body":"so many ideas out there that we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1634.25,"endTime":1639.14,"body":"and the media take for granted."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1634.25,"endTime":1639.14,"body":"They've become so ingrained in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1639.14,"endTime":1642.86,"body":"how we live and how we're told"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1639.14,"endTime":1642.86,"body":"to live, how we think about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1642.86,"endTime":1647.15,"body":"what's right and what's wrong."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1642.86,"endTime":1647.15,"body":"And we don't stop to question"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1647.15,"endTime":1652.37,"body":"them. So, in each episode, we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1647.15,"endTime":1652.37,"body":"pausing to cast a sideways eye,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1652.4,"endTime":1656.27,"body":"something that seems to be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1652.4,"endTime":1656.27,"body":"common sense, to see if we can"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1656.27,"endTime":1659.78,"body":"think about it differently. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1656.27,"endTime":1659.78,"body":"today, we're talking about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1659.78,"endTime":1663.17,"body":"idea that where you live affects"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1659.78,"endTime":1663.17,"body":"your life chances. That's the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1663.17,"endTime":1666.32,"body":"idea that living in a more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1663.17,"endTime":1666.32,"body":"deprived neighbourhood could"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1666.32,"endTime":1669.29,"body":"have a negative impact on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1666.32,"endTime":1669.29,"body":"people's prospects; things like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1669.32,"endTime":1672.95,"body":"life expectancy, for example,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1669.32,"endTime":1672.95,"body":"but also people's behaviour."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1673.13,"endTime":1674.72,"body":"It's known"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1673.13,"endTime":1674.72,"body":"in some policy in academic"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1674.72,"endTime":1677.78,"body":"circles as neighbourhood"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1674.72,"endTime":1677.78,"body":"effects. Michaela, how do you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1677.78,"endTime":1680.21,"body":"understand it and how can we"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1677.78,"endTime":1680.21,"body":"shake it up a bit?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1680.3,"endTime":1683.45,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1680.3,"endTime":1683.45,"body":"this idea of neighbourhood"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1683.45,"endTime":1688.04,"body":"effect is one that attributes"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1683.45,"endTime":1688.04,"body":"kind of negative characteristics"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1688.04,"endTime":1693.23,"body":"to a particular place. And I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1688.04,"endTime":1693.23,"body":"think what this does is that it"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1693.23,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"actually fails to consider what"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1693.23,"endTime":1699.32,"body":"the other issues are, that might"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1699.35,"endTime":1702.56,"body":"be making that place in a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1699.35,"endTime":1702.56,"body":"particular way, that might be"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1702.56,"endTime":1705.71,"body":"introducing deprivation into an"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1702.56,"endTime":1705.71,"body":"area."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1705.74,"endTime":1709.88,"body":"So, is it kind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1705.74,"endTime":1709.88,"body":"of, like, that places that have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1709.88,"endTime":1714.71,"body":"certain problems become labelled"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1709.88,"endTime":1714.71,"body":"as \"problem places\", yeah? And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1714.71,"endTime":1718.34,"body":"then, because the places get"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1714.71,"endTime":1718.34,"body":"demonised, the people who live"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1718.34,"endTime":1722.72,"body":"there do as well. So, like, a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1718.34,"endTime":1722.72,"body":"young person growing up in a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1722.72,"endTime":1726.8,"body":"place that's been labelled as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1722.72,"endTime":1726.8,"body":"\"problem\", that kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1726.8,"endTime":1729.74,"body":"negatively affects their"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1726.8,"endTime":1729.74,"body":"progress through life, in a way,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1729.74,"endTime":1731.84,"body":"they get tarred that same brush."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1732.02,"endTime":1734.06,"body":"That's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1732.02,"endTime":1734.06,"body":"absolutely the case. The place"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1734.06,"endTime":1737.39,"body":"becomes demonised and the people"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1734.06,"endTime":1737.39,"body":"who live within it becomes"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1737.39,"endTime":1742.58,"body":"stigmatised. And I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1737.39,"endTime":1742.58,"body":"that's a really good way of kind"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1742.58,"endTime":1745.46,"body":"of drawing attention to what the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1742.58,"endTime":1745.46,"body":"issues really are here. Because"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1745.46,"endTime":1751.37,"body":"what it does is it stops us from"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1745.46,"endTime":1751.37,"body":"having a look at, you know, what"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1751.37,"endTime":1754.58,"body":"type of disinvestment has"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1751.37,"endTime":1754.58,"body":"happened in those areas. Quite"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1754.58,"endTime":1759.23,"body":"simply, how have central"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1754.58,"endTime":1759.23,"body":"governments or local governments"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1759.83,"endTime":1764.18,"body":"stopped putting money and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1759.83,"endTime":1764.18,"body":"resource into a place."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1764.36,"endTime":1768.38,"body":"Basically, it's a very, very"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1764.36,"endTime":1768.38,"body":"simplistic understanding; it's a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1768.38,"endTime":1771.35,"body":"simplistic understanding, which"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1768.38,"endTime":1771.35,"body":"stops us from looking at the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1771.35,"endTime":1774.14,"body":"kind of root causes of poverty"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1771.35,"endTime":1774.14,"body":"and inequality."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1774.26,"endTime":1776.51,"body":"I'm curious, is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1774.26,"endTime":1776.51,"body":"there, like, a relationship here"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1776.51,"endTime":1781.16,"body":"to gentrification in the sense"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1776.51,"endTime":1781.16,"body":"that the government doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1781.16,"endTime":1785.27,"body":"invest in a place, it becomes a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1781.16,"endTime":1785.27,"body":"\"problem place\", but then"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1785.27,"endTime":1790.52,"body":"there's a certain cultural"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1785.27,"endTime":1790.52,"body":"cachet, let's say, for people to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1790.52,"endTime":1794.48,"body":"move to that place? It's also"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1790.52,"endTime":1794.48,"body":"probably cheap, right? So, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1794.48,"endTime":1798.23,"body":"get these people moving in;"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1794.48,"endTime":1798.23,"body":"maybe artists, queer people – I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1798.23,"endTime":1801.77,"body":"say this as a queer person who's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1798.23,"endTime":1801.77,"body":"moved to a kind of a cheaper"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1801.77,"endTime":1805.4,"body":"suburb in my own city, so I'm,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1801.77,"endTime":1805.4,"body":"in a way, I'm talking about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1805.4,"endTime":1811.55,"body":"myself here – and that then"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1805.4,"endTime":1811.55,"body":"leads to gentrification. Does"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1811.55,"endTime":1814.1,"body":"that gentrification process end"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1811.55,"endTime":1814.1,"body":"up reaching the people that live"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1814.1,"endTime":1816.08,"body":"there, though? Like, I'm just"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1814.1,"endTime":1816.08,"body":"curious about what the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1816.08,"endTime":1819.23,"body":"relationship is between \"problem"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1816.08,"endTime":1819.23,"body":"paces\" and gentrification?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1819.53,"endTime":1821.48,"body":"I think that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1819.53,"endTime":1821.48,"body":"there's quite a lot wrapped up"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1821.48,"endTime":1824.69,"body":"in what you've just said, Rosie."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1821.48,"endTime":1824.69,"body":"I mean, I think that we can also"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1824.69,"endTime":1828.86,"body":"think that there are other ways"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1824.69,"endTime":1828.86,"body":"of devaluing a place. And you're"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1828.86,"endTime":1833.24,"body":"kind of right to point to the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1828.86,"endTime":1833.24,"body":"kind of processes by which there"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1833.24,"endTime":1838.04,"body":"might be a purposeful"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1833.24,"endTime":1838.04,"body":"devaluation of a place in order"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1838.04,"endTime":1842.51,"body":"to, for example, run it down,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1838.04,"endTime":1842.51,"body":"make it so uncomfortable for"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1842.51,"endTime":1848.12,"body":"people to live in, so that other"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1842.51,"endTime":1848.12,"body":"people could kind of – and I'm"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1848.12,"endTime":1849.89,"body":"not talking about people really,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1848.12,"endTime":1849.89,"body":"I'm talking about kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1849.89,"endTime":1854.63,"body":"corporations, development"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1849.89,"endTime":1854.63,"body":"companies – can move in, can buy"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1854.63,"endTime":1859.4,"body":"up at a low cost, and then it"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1854.63,"endTime":1859.4,"body":"can raise the value through"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1859.4,"endTime":1862.49,"body":"building on that land, or"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1859.4,"endTime":1862.49,"body":"through developing those"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1862.49,"endTime":1867.53,"body":"particular places in particular"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1862.49,"endTime":1867.53,"body":"ways. So yes, there is a story"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1867.56,"endTime":1871.25,"body":"about, you know ... In a context"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1867.56,"endTime":1871.25,"body":"like London, for example, I've"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1871.25,"endTime":1874.64,"body":"done work in Peckham with my"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1871.25,"endTime":1874.64,"body":"colleague Emma Jackson, another"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1874.64,"endTime":1877.55,"body":"one of the editors at The"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1874.64,"endTime":1877.55,"body":"Sociological Review, and we've"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1877.55,"endTime":1881.36,"body":"watched how, over a long period"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1877.55,"endTime":1881.36,"body":"of time, there have been various"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1881.39,"endTime":1885.62,"body":"efforts and kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1881.39,"endTime":1885.62,"body":"contestations over what's valued"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1885.65,"endTime":1889.31,"body":"in that place. And yes, there"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1885.65,"endTime":1889.31,"body":"are people who move in because"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1889.34,"endTime":1894.05,"body":"the costs of living there are"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1889.34,"endTime":1894.05,"body":"low. And yes, you know, there is"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1894.05,"endTime":1898.61,"body":"that tendency towards kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1894.05,"endTime":1898.61,"body":"displacing those populations who"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1898.61,"endTime":1901.25,"body":"are already living there. And"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1898.61,"endTime":1901.25,"body":"that's kind of what's at the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1901.25,"endTime":1903.89,"body":"heart of that narrative around"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1901.25,"endTime":1903.89,"body":"gentrification."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1904.04,"endTime":1905.6,"body":"You"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1904.04,"endTime":1905.6,"body":"mentioned being careful not to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1905.6,"endTime":1908.81,"body":"have oversimplistic"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1905.6,"endTime":1908.81,"body":"understanding. And if you're"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1908.81,"endTime":1912.05,"body":"thinking sociologically, there"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1908.81,"endTime":1912.05,"body":"are certain things you might do"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1912.05,"endTime":1915.68,"body":"to avoid the risk of being too"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1912.05,"endTime":1915.68,"body":"simplistic about how you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1915.68,"endTime":1918.86,"body":"understand a place, not least,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1915.68,"endTime":1918.86,"body":"actually, talking to people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1918.86,"endTime":1923.87,"body":"there properly over a long"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1918.86,"endTime":1923.87,"body":"period of time. People are more"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1923.87,"endTime":1925.13,"body":"than statistics, right?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1925.37,"endTime":1927.8,"body":"Absolutely. And"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1925.37,"endTime":1927.8,"body":"I think that when we're thinking"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1927.8,"endTime":1931.46,"body":"about gentrification, the work"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1927.8,"endTime":1931.46,"body":"of Kirsteen Paton really does"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1931.46,"endTime":1934.7,"body":"come to mind in this. So, she's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1931.46,"endTime":1934.7,"body":"written this fantastic book"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1934.7,"endTime":1938.18,"body":"A"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1934.7,"endTime":1938.18,"body":"Working-Class Perspective\","},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1938.36,"endTime":1942.65,"body":"where she works with working"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1938.36,"endTime":1942.65,"body":"class communities in Glasgow and"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1942.65,"endTime":1946.04,"body":"talks to them about how they"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1942.65,"endTime":1946.04,"body":"experienced that process of"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1946.04,"endTime":1949.37,"body":"gentrification. And yes, you"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1946.04,"endTime":1949.37,"body":"know, the landscape is"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1949.37,"endTime":1952.73,"body":"transforming, the property"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1949.37,"endTime":1952.73,"body":"market is transforming. But she"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1952.73,"endTime":1956.57,"body":"presents this really nuanced"},{"speaker":"called \"Gentrification","startTime":1952.73,"endTime":1956.57,"body":"understanding, where, you know,"},{"speaker":"they're asking","startTime":1956.57,"endTime":1959.72,"body":"\"Well, why, why"},{"speaker":"they're asking","startTime":1956.57,"endTime":1959.72,"body":"can't we have this as well?\" You"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1959.72,"endTime":1962.96,"body":"\"Yes, I want to be able to"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1959.72,"endTime":1962.96,"body":"go in and buy a nice coffee from"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1962.96,"endTime":1965.39,"body":"that coffee shop.\" In fact,"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1962.96,"endTime":1965.39,"body":"that's the opening example in"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1965.39,"endTime":1968.87,"body":"her book. So, people's"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1965.39,"endTime":1968.87,"body":"relationships to those places"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1968.87,"endTime":1971.96,"body":"that are gentrifying are also"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1968.87,"endTime":1971.96,"body":"quite complicated. And I think"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1971.96,"endTime":1974.9,"body":"it's really important that we"},{"speaker":"know","startTime":1971.96,"endTime":1974.9,"body":"don't oversimplify that."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1975.26,"endTime":1977.72,"body":"So, it's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1975.26,"endTime":1977.72,"body":"about not simplifying things too"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1977.72,"endTime":1980.96,"body":"much, but also not making"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1977.72,"endTime":1980.96,"body":"assumptions about what people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1980.96,"endTime":1985.73,"body":"want based on who they are on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1980.96,"endTime":1985.73,"body":"the page. Anyway, almost time to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1985.73,"endTime":1990.53,"body":"go. But before that, we want to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1985.73,"endTime":1990.53,"body":"ask, Michaela, one book or film"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1990.53,"endTime":1995.09,"body":"or music or artwork you'd"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1990.53,"endTime":1995.09,"body":"recommend on this topic of home?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1995.27,"endTime":1998.48,"body":"It could be Nomadland, or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1995.27,"endTime":1998.48,"body":"Neighbours?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1999.74,"endTime":2002.44,"body":"Yeah, I mean,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":1999.74,"endTime":2002.44,"body":"Neighbours are an earlier part"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2002.44,"endTime":2006.37,"body":"of my life and I just watched"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2002.44,"endTime":2006.37,"body":"Nomadland last weekend, but,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2006.55,"endTime":2009.82,"body":"actually, what I wanted to talk"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2006.55,"endTime":2009.82,"body":"to you about today is a book"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2009.82,"endTime":2013.96,"body":"that I read recently, by a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2009.82,"endTime":2013.96,"body":"first-time novelist, Catherine"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2013.96,"endTime":2018.82,"body":"Menon, and the book is called"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2013.96,"endTime":2018.82,"body":"\"Fragile Monsters\". It's a book"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2018.82,"endTime":2023.74,"body":"about a young woman who has been"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2018.82,"endTime":2023.74,"body":"working in Canada and, because"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2023.74,"endTime":2026.8,"body":"of a crisis in her life, she"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2023.74,"endTime":2026.8,"body":"decides to return to Malaysia,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2026.83,"endTime":2030.85,"body":"which is where she was born. And"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2026.83,"endTime":2030.85,"body":"it's about her relationship with"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2030.85,"endTime":2037.0,"body":"her ageing grandmother. And in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2030.85,"endTime":2037.0,"body":"this story, we see that the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2037.03,"endTime":2040.63,"body":"health of her grandmother"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2037.03,"endTime":2040.63,"body":"deteriorate over time, and"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2040.63,"endTime":2045.4,"body":"alongside it, the kind of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2040.63,"endTime":2045.4,"body":"connections to a family home"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2045.43,"endTime":2050.95,"body":"that has been a site of a lot of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2045.43,"endTime":2050.95,"body":"memories, good and bad, are at"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2050.95,"endTime":2054.22,"body":"the centre of the narrative."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2050.95,"endTime":2054.22,"body":"What's interesting is that this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2054.22,"endTime":2057.7,"body":"house is in a swamp, and as"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2054.22,"endTime":2057.7,"body":"floods and floods and floods"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2057.7,"endTime":2061.54,"body":"come in – Malaysia is a very wet"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2057.7,"endTime":2061.54,"body":"country – the house basically"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2061.54,"endTime":2065.5,"body":"starts to crumble into its"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2061.54,"endTime":2065.5,"body":"surroundings. Now, I think this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2065.5,"endTime":2068.38,"body":"book speaks to the themes we've"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2065.5,"endTime":2068.38,"body":"talked about today, because it's"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2068.38,"endTime":2072.1,"body":"about the relationship between"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2068.38,"endTime":2072.1,"body":"the generations. It travels"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2072.1,"endTime":2075.7,"body":"through the history of this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2072.1,"endTime":2075.7,"body":"Malaysian family from the 1920s"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2075.73,"endTime":2079.99,"body":"onwards, but it's also about the"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2075.73,"endTime":2079.99,"body":"\"myth of return\". The \"myth of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2079.99,"endTime":2085.03,"body":"return\" is a kind of central"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2079.99,"endTime":2085.03,"body":"theme in a lot of work around"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2085.03,"endTime":2090.04,"body":"the idea that if you"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2085.03,"endTime":2090.04,"body":"go back to the place that you"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2090.04,"endTime":2093.76,"body":"originate in, it's a kind of"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2090.04,"endTime":2093.76,"body":"dream that lots of migrants hold"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2093.76,"endTime":2098.14,"body":"on to. But what we get from"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2093.76,"endTime":2098.14,"body":"Catherine Menon's book is"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2098.14,"endTime":2102.76,"body":"actually that being at home is"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2098.14,"endTime":2102.76,"body":"not quite all it cracked up to"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2102.76,"endTime":2107.44,"body":"do. The house and actually the"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2102.76,"endTime":2107.44,"body":"place are not the same, the"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2107.44,"endTime":2111.73,"body":"relationship isn't the same. So,"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2107.44,"endTime":2111.73,"body":"it ties in quite well to that"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2111.82,"endTime":2115.51,"body":"question that you presented to"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2111.82,"endTime":2115.51,"body":"me at the beginning, about this"},{"speaker":"migration","startTime":2115.51,"endTime":2117.04,"body":"process of unsettling."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2117.49,"endTime":2119.38,"body":"Just picking up"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2117.49,"endTime":2119.38,"body":"on this idea of the \"myth of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2119.38,"endTime":2122.14,"body":"return\"; is that something that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2119.38,"endTime":2122.14,"body":"you've ever experienced?"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2122.59,"endTime":2125.32,"body":"I think that I"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2122.59,"endTime":2125.32,"body":"haven't had that \"myth of"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2125.32,"endTime":2127.6,"body":"return\". And actually, I think,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2125.32,"endTime":2127.6,"body":"in my family, I've been"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2127.6,"endTime":2130.54,"body":"reflecting on this a lot in"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2127.6,"endTime":2130.54,"body":"respect to my family's history"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2130.54,"endTime":2136.39,"body":"with Hong Kong, because the Hong"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2130.54,"endTime":2136.39,"body":"Kong that they knew about wasn't"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2136.39,"endTime":2139.93,"body":"there to return to. So, they"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2136.39,"endTime":2139.93,"body":"left a place that had been on"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2139.93,"endTime":2144.85,"body":"borrowed time in the 1990s, as"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2139.93,"endTime":2144.85,"body":"it was kind of leading up to"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2145.27,"endTime":2151.27,"body":"Britain transferring sovereignty"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2145.27,"endTime":2151.27,"body":"of the region to China. And once"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2151.27,"endTime":2154.27,"body":"they left – my grandparents that"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2151.27,"endTime":2154.27,"body":"is, my mother had left years"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2154.27,"endTime":2157.93,"body":"before – I don't think they ever"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2154.27,"endTime":2157.93,"body":"imagined going back because"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2157.93,"endTime":2162.16,"body":"there was nowhere to go back to,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2157.93,"endTime":2162.16,"body":"in their mind. Because the place"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2162.19,"endTime":2168.19,"body":"that they had left, the colonial"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2162.19,"endTime":2168.19,"body":"Hong Kong, had been surpassed by"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2168.19,"endTime":2170.95,"body":"Chinese Hong Kong. But what's,"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2168.19,"endTime":2170.95,"body":"what's interesting about this"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2170.95,"endTime":2174.25,"body":"is, I think, that there was a"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2170.95,"endTime":2174.25,"body":"moment of hope. My mum went back"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2174.25,"endTime":2178.51,"body":"in around 2010 to visit my"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2174.25,"endTime":2178.51,"body":"sister who was living there at"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2178.51,"endTime":2180.7,"body":"the time, and she was really"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2178.51,"endTime":2180.7,"body":"surprised to find that that Hong"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2180.7,"endTime":2184.09,"body":"Kong was still there, or parts"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2180.7,"endTime":2184.09,"body":"of it were still familiar to"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2184.09,"endTime":2188.29,"body":"the sights, the smells,"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2184.09,"endTime":2188.29,"body":"even some of the street scenes."},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2188.77,"endTime":2192.88,"body":"But watching her kind of mourn"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2188.77,"endTime":2192.88,"body":"through this now – what's"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2192.88,"endTime":2195.49,"body":"happening to Hong Kong, what's"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2192.88,"endTime":2195.49,"body":"happened to her beautiful city –"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2195.88,"endTime":2200.41,"body":"has, I think, brought once"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2195.88,"endTime":2200.41,"body":"again, the sense that her home"},{"speaker":"her","startTime":2200.41,"endTime":2201.31,"body":"is no longer there."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2201.76,"endTime":2204.76,"body":"Yeah, that's ..."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2201.76,"endTime":2204.76,"body":"The \"myth of return\" really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2204.76,"endTime":2208.09,"body":"speaks to me, I think, because,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2204.76,"endTime":2208.09,"body":"when I go back to New Zealand,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2208.12,"endTime":2211.69,"body":"my parents sold – well, they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2208.12,"endTime":2211.69,"body":"didn't sell – my parents moved"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2211.72,"endTime":2215.71,"body":"from the house that I grew up"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2211.72,"endTime":2215.71,"body":"in, and live somewhere entirely"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2215.71,"endTime":2219.64,"body":"different. So, going back is not"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2215.71,"endTime":2219.64,"body":"going back to the same place."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2219.64,"endTime":2222.49,"body":"It's, it's going home, but it's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2219.64,"endTime":2222.49,"body":"not going home to the home that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2222.52,"endTime":2227.86,"body":"I knew growing up. It's a very"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2222.52,"endTime":2227.86,"body":"bizarre kind of thing. So, my"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2227.86,"endTime":2231.01,"body":"recommendation, if I can jump in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2227.86,"endTime":2231.01,"body":"with my own recommendation here,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2231.7,"endTime":2235.87,"body":"is also a novel as well. So,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2231.7,"endTime":2235.87,"body":"mine is \"Unsheltered\" by Barbara"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2235.87,"endTime":2241.93,"body":"Kingsolver. It's about a middle"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2235.87,"endTime":2241.93,"body":"aged woman and her family, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2241.96,"endTime":2245.89,"body":"they have ... Their supposedly"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2241.96,"endTime":2245.89,"body":"secure life with their good"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2245.89,"endTime":2249.37,"body":"middle class jobs and the home"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2245.89,"endTime":2249.37,"body":"that they own crumbles down"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2249.4,"endTime":2253.06,"body":"around them. And it's a really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2249.4,"endTime":2253.06,"body":"good reminder, I think, that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2253.06,"endTime":2256.45,"body":"home isn't always a place of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2253.06,"endTime":2256.45,"body":"security that we think it might"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2256.45,"endTime":2258.82,"body":"be. Alexis, what about you?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2259.15,"endTime":2262.09,"body":"I'm quite"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2259.15,"endTime":2262.09,"body":"into science fiction, and maybe"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2262.12,"endTime":2265.36,"body":"it's like, hmm ... the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2262.12,"endTime":2265.36,"body":"\"Foundation\" would be my"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2265.36,"endTime":2268.48,"body":"recommendation, because, even"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2265.36,"endTime":2268.48,"body":"though the theme of home might"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2268.48,"endTime":2272.95,"body":"not be, like, a central one, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2268.48,"endTime":2272.95,"body":"do remember this part about one"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2272.95,"endTime":2275.83,"body":"of the protagonists kind of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2272.95,"endTime":2275.83,"body":"coming with a spaceship and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2275.83,"endTime":2278.38,"body":"landing on a planet and coming"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2275.83,"endTime":2278.38,"body":"out of the spaceship and just"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2278.38,"endTime":2282.82,"body":"like really taking in the smells"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2278.38,"endTime":2282.82,"body":"of the planet. And that kind of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2282.82,"endTime":2286.27,"body":"really connects to my own"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2282.82,"endTime":2286.27,"body":"understanding of home, like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2286.27,"endTime":2289.48,"body":"going into the house and just,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2286.27,"endTime":2289.48,"body":"like, smelling food, type of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2289.48,"endTime":2295.45,"body":"thing, like these nostalgic or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2289.48,"endTime":2295.45,"body":"comforting smells, I guess."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2296.02,"endTime":2299.2,"body":"Yeah. I love that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2296.02,"endTime":2299.2,"body":"you, I love that talking about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2299.2,"endTime":2302.2,"body":"home you jumped to outer space"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2299.2,"endTime":2302.2,"body":"science fiction."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2304.0,"endTime":2305.44,"body":"Outer space"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2304.0,"endTime":2305.44,"body":"pudding."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2308.11,"endTime":2310.36,"body":"Well, thanks so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2308.11,"endTime":2310.36,"body":"much Michaela, it's been really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2310.36,"endTime":2311.56,"body":"great to have you with us."},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2311.8,"endTime":2313.93,"body":"Thank you very"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2311.8,"endTime":2313.93,"body":"much. Lovely to speak with you"},{"speaker":"Michaela Benson","startTime":2313.93,"endTime":2314.47,"body":"both."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2317.56,"endTime":2319.69,"body":"And that's it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2317.56,"endTime":2319.69,"body":"from us for now, if you want to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2319.69,"endTime":2322.09,"body":"see what the team here at The"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2319.69,"endTime":2322.09,"body":"Sociological Review has"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2322.09,"endTime":2325.69,"body":"recommended on Home, from the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2322.09,"endTime":2325.69,"body":"recent farming film \"Minari\" to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2325.72,"endTime":2329.26,"body":"art on global migration, you'll"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2325.72,"endTime":2329.26,"body":"find it all in our show notes"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2329.26,"endTime":2331.18,"body":"and over at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2329.26,"endTime":2331.18,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2333.28,"endTime":2336.19,"body":"Alexis, today has been so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2333.28,"endTime":2336.19,"body":"interesting for me, particularly"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2336.19,"endTime":2340.51,"body":"hearing Michaela talk about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2336.19,"endTime":2340.51,"body":"self-builds. I'm trying to buy a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2340.51,"endTime":2344.47,"body":"house in Sydney with my partner"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2340.51,"endTime":2344.47,"body":"and, tell you what, buying"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2344.47,"endTime":2347.2,"body":"property in Sydney is so"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2344.47,"endTime":2347.2,"body":"expensive, so, if I could just"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2347.2,"endTime":2350.11,"body":"build my own place with my"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2347.2,"endTime":2350.11,"body":"hands, I think that would be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2350.11,"endTime":2351.13,"body":"much, much easier."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2351.16,"endTime":2354.7,"body":"Yeah. So, me"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2351.16,"endTime":2354.7,"body":"and my partner, we're really"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2354.7,"endTime":2358.96,"body":"privileged to be able to buy our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2354.7,"endTime":2358.96,"body":"own place, but we had to do a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2358.96,"endTime":2361.93,"body":"lot of work around the house."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2358.96,"endTime":2361.93,"body":"So, I can definitely let you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2361.93,"endTime":2365.68,"body":"know about some of the things"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2361.93,"endTime":2365.68,"body":"that went wrong with our DIY."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2366.61,"endTime":2369.49,"body":"Oh, no. Okay,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2366.61,"endTime":2369.49,"body":"well, maybe that's, maybe that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2369.49,"endTime":2376.48,"body":"a reminder that perhaps just"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2369.49,"endTime":2376.48,"body":"find something a bit easier. If"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2376.48,"endTime":2379.69,"body":"you've enjoyed listening today,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2376.48,"endTime":2379.69,"body":"please subscribe and give us a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2379.69,"endTime":2382.66,"body":"rating in whatever app you're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2379.69,"endTime":2382.66,"body":"using. It takes a couple of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2382.66,"endTime":2385.57,"body":"seconds, but it will make our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2382.66,"endTime":2385.57,"body":"day. And if you've got longer,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2385.57,"endTime":2390.07,"body":"why not leave us a nice review."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2385.57,"endTime":2390.07,"body":"We'll be back soon with more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2390.07,"endTime":2393.94,"body":"Uncommon Sense. Our producer was"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2390.07,"endTime":2393.94,"body":"Alice Bloch. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2393.94,"endTime":2395.23,"body":"listening. Bye!"}]}