{"version":"1.0.0","segments":[{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2.04,"endTime":4.5,"body":"Hi, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2.04,"endTime":4.5,"body":"welcome to Uncommon Sense, from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.77,"body":"The Sociological Review. I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":4.5,"endTime":7.77,"body":"Alexis Hieu Truong in Ottawa,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":7.77,"endTime":8.28,"body":"Canada."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":8.34,"endTime":11.61,"body":"And I'm Rosie"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":8.34,"endTime":11.61,"body":"Hancock in Sydney, Australia. In"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":11.61,"endTime":16.56,"body":"terms of seasons, hemispheres,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":11.61,"endTime":16.56,"body":"timezones, Alexis, you and I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":16.56,"endTime":20.13,"body":"could not be further apart."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":16.56,"endTime":20.13,"body":"Actually, you might be able to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":20.13,"endTime":24.42,"body":"hear cicadas in the background,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":20.13,"endTime":24.42,"body":"because today, on recording day,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":24.54,"endTime":28.23,"body":"it's summer in Australia."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":24.54,"endTime":28.23,"body":"Anyway, what we have in common"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":28.41,"endTime":31.77,"body":"with the whole team behind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":28.41,"endTime":31.77,"body":"Uncommon Sense, is our belief"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":31.77,"endTime":34.98,"body":"that sociology shouldn't be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":31.77,"endTime":34.98,"body":"stuck in a library. It belongs"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":35.01,"endTime":38.31,"body":"out there in the world, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":35.01,"endTime":38.31,"body":"perhaps it might even change the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":38.31,"endTime":43.62,"body":"world. And on that, actually, do"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":38.31,"endTime":43.62,"body":"tap \"subscribe\" or \"follow\" in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":43.62,"endTime":46.38,"body":"whatever app you're using to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":43.62,"endTime":46.38,"body":"hear this. It means that every"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":46.38,"endTime":48.99,"body":"episode will reach you, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":46.38,"endTime":48.99,"body":"hopefully it will reach more"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":48.99,"endTime":49.71,"body":"people too."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":50.46,"endTime":52.83,"body":"Yeah, as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":50.46,"endTime":52.83,"body":"well as being a public good, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":52.83,"endTime":55.65,"body":"do think sociology can be good"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":52.83,"endTime":55.65,"body":"for us at a personal level too."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":56.19,"endTime":59.52,"body":"I find it kind of reassuring or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":56.19,"endTime":59.52,"body":"empowering. Like, for me,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":59.52,"endTime":63.06,"body":"something that came out of the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":59.52,"endTime":63.06,"body":"first episodes, like, of Home"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":63.06,"endTime":66.63,"body":"and Care, was a reminder that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":63.06,"endTime":66.63,"body":"it's important to see our lives"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":66.66,"endTime":69.84,"body":"and the challenges we face as"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":66.66,"endTime":69.84,"body":"being shaped by bigger"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":69.84,"endTime":70.74,"body":"structures."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":70.92,"endTime":73.23,"body":"And perhaps that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":70.92,"endTime":73.23,"body":"is nowhere more true than for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":73.23,"endTime":79.2,"body":"today's subject, education. Or"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":73.23,"endTime":79.2,"body":"more specifically, School. It's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.2,"endTime":83.16,"body":"a word that conjures up so much,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":79.2,"endTime":83.16,"body":"whether it's badly fitting"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":83.16,"endTime":87.78,"body":"uniforms or lunchtime detention."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":83.16,"endTime":87.78,"body":"And it's something almost no one"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":87.78,"endTime":91.47,"body":"has just an abstract"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":87.78,"endTime":91.47,"body":"relationship with either. It's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":91.47,"endTime":94.35,"body":"something that we often discuss"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":91.47,"endTime":94.35,"body":"at a really personal level, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":94.35,"endTime":98.1,"body":"it stirs up big opinions really"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":94.35,"endTime":98.1,"body":"quickly. Alexis, what does"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":98.1,"endTime":99.18,"body":"school mean for you?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":99.81,"endTime":101.82,"body":"I've"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":99.81,"endTime":101.82,"body":"actually always loved school,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":101.85,"endTime":105.0,"body":"generally speaking. I remember"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":101.85,"endTime":105.0,"body":"getting to high school and"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":105.0,"endTime":107.97,"body":"\"What"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":105.0,"endTime":107.97,"body":"do you want to do when you grow"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":107.97,"endTime":111.45,"body":"up?\" And I also remember"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":107.97,"endTime":111.45,"body":"answering: \"Getting a PhD!\""},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":111.87,"endTime":114.6,"body":"Because that seemed like the"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":111.87,"endTime":114.6,"body":"farthest one could go in, like,"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":114.6,"endTime":119.22,"body":"that game of school, like a"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":114.6,"endTime":119.22,"body":"final boss. But yeah, I also"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":119.22,"endTime":122.16,"body":"remember not knowing what a PhD"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":119.22,"endTime":122.16,"body":"was, let alone knowing what"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":122.16,"endTime":125.7,"body":"discipline or profession I was"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":122.16,"endTime":125.7,"body":"interested in. Like, how about"},{"speaker":"having a teacher ask us","startTime":125.7,"endTime":126.03,"body":"you?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":126.33,"endTime":130.92,"body":"Alexis, we both"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":126.33,"endTime":130.92,"body":"have PhDs. I think we might be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":130.95,"endTime":134.97,"body":"those weirdos who really liked"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":130.95,"endTime":134.97,"body":"school and education, maybe a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":134.97,"endTime":138.78,"body":"little bit too much. And, you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":134.97,"endTime":138.78,"body":"know, this is a sociology"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":138.78,"endTime":141.21,"body":"podcast, I think we should"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":138.78,"endTime":141.21,"body":"acknowledge that there's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":141.21,"endTime":144.21,"body":"definitely a privilege there"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":141.21,"endTime":144.21,"body":"that we're even able to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":144.21,"endTime":147.78,"body":"experience school as a place of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":144.21,"endTime":147.78,"body":"freedom and aspiration, where we"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":147.78,"endTime":151.62,"body":"felt we could fulfil our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":147.78,"endTime":151.62,"body":"potential. Well, our guest today"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":151.62,"endTime":155.01,"body":"is going to help us complicate"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":151.62,"endTime":155.01,"body":"this a wee bit. He's Remi"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":155.04,"endTime":159.0,"body":"Joseph-Salisbury. His research"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":155.04,"endTime":159.0,"body":"and much of his activism is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":159.0,"endTime":162.57,"body":"focused on race and racism in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":159.0,"endTime":162.57,"body":"the context of education and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":162.57,"endTime":166.14,"body":"policing. And crucially, as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":162.57,"endTime":166.14,"body":"we'll hear today, those two"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":166.14,"endTime":168.72,"body":"things are far from distinct."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":166.14,"endTime":168.72,"body":"Hi, Remy."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":168.81,"endTime":171.03,"body":"Hi, thank"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":168.81,"endTime":171.03,"body":"you for having me. Great to be"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":171.03,"endTime":171.36,"body":"here."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":171.45,"endTime":172.92,"body":"It's awesome to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":171.45,"endTime":172.92,"body":"have you on here."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":173.07,"endTime":175.23,"body":"We'll talk"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":173.07,"endTime":175.23,"body":"about your work in a moment. But"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":175.23,"endTime":179.07,"body":"first, tell us about your own"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":175.23,"endTime":179.07,"body":"school experience. That was in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":179.07,"endTime":180.84,"body":"Manchester, in the north of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":179.07,"endTime":180.84,"body":"England?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":181.11,"endTime":184.304,"body":"Yeah, so,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":181.11,"endTime":184.304,"body":"I went to a working-class school"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":184.38,"endTime":188.791,"body":"in a working-class area. A"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":184.38,"endTime":188.791,"body":"school that was labelled as low"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":188.867,"endTime":193.43,"body":"or underperforming, or even"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":188.867,"endTime":193.43,"body":"failing. It was a racially mixed"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":193.506,"endTime":198.221,"body":"school, majority White, with a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":193.506,"endTime":198.221,"body":"significant Bengali population."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":198.297,"endTime":202.937,"body":"And generally, I would say, I"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":198.297,"endTime":202.937,"body":"enjoyed school. There was a lot"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":203.013,"endTime":206.587,"body":"about school that I didn't"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":203.013,"endTime":206.587,"body":"enjoy, but I enjoyed"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":206.663,"endTime":211.379,"body":"socialising, seeing my friends."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":206.663,"endTime":211.379,"body":"And there were some aspects of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":211.455,"endTime":215.942,"body":"the education process that did"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":211.455,"endTime":215.942,"body":"capture my imagination: some"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":216.018,"endTime":220.733,"body":"teachers that engaged me, some"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":216.018,"endTime":220.733,"body":"curricular content that engaged"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":220.809,"endTime":225.524,"body":"me. But the flip side of that is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":220.809,"endTime":225.524,"body":"also to say that there was an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":225.601,"endTime":229.783,"body":"awful lot of the experience,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":225.601,"endTime":229.783,"body":"before my experience, that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":229.86,"endTime":234.423,"body":"disinterested me. At school I"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":229.86,"endTime":234.423,"body":"saw – and this is perhaps what"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":234.499,"endTime":238.986,"body":"sparked my interest in education"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":234.499,"endTime":238.986,"body":"– many of my close friends"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":239.062,"endTime":243.473,"body":"started out really well as we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":239.062,"endTime":243.473,"body":"entered Secondary Education,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":243.549,"endTime":248.188,"body":"which begins at age 11, but over"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":243.549,"endTime":248.188,"body":"the course of the process of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":248.264,"endTime":253.132,"body":"Secondary Education, they became"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":248.264,"endTime":253.132,"body":"the students that were labelled"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":253.208,"endTime":257.543,"body":"as failing, or students that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":253.208,"endTime":257.543,"body":"were excluded, pushed out or"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":257.619,"endTime":262.486,"body":"kicked out of school and became"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":257.619,"endTime":262.486,"body":"disinterested. So, looking at my"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":262.562,"endTime":267.202,"body":"friends and my own experience,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":262.562,"endTime":267.202,"body":"led me to think more carefully"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":267.278,"endTime":271.993,"body":"about what happens during that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":267.278,"endTime":271.993,"body":"process that lead students that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":272.069,"endTime":276.176,"body":"are seen as intelligent to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":272.069,"endTime":276.176,"body":"become students that are no"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":276.252,"endTime":278.61,"body":"longer interested in schooling."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":279.18,"endTime":281.34,"body":"So, it"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":279.18,"endTime":281.34,"body":"sounds like your experience"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":281.4,"endTime":285.39,"body":"formed an interest in education"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":281.4,"endTime":285.39,"body":"more broadly. And things like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":285.39,"endTime":289.77,"body":"inequality, surveillance and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":285.39,"endTime":289.77,"body":"justice. How can we even start"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":289.77,"endTime":294.42,"body":"to define education? It's a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":289.77,"endTime":294.42,"body":"process, but it's also a goal?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":295.17,"endTime":297.87,"body":"It's an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":295.17,"endTime":297.87,"body":"incredibly difficult question,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":297.87,"endTime":302.97,"body":"but I think it points to how"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":297.87,"endTime":302.97,"body":"broad education is and how much"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":303.24,"endTime":307.65,"body":"is embedded in that term."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":303.24,"endTime":307.65,"body":"Perhaps is useful to think about"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":307.65,"endTime":312.33,"body":"it as a process. It's something"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":307.65,"endTime":312.33,"body":"that's always ongoing. It's the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":312.33,"endTime":316.23,"body":"way in which we acquire"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":312.33,"endTime":316.23,"body":"information, the way in which"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":316.23,"endTime":321.09,"body":"we're socialised, we're taught"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":316.23,"endTime":321.09,"body":"the norms of society and how..."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":321.51,"endTime":326.58,"body":"And the expectations upon us to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":321.51,"endTime":326.58,"body":"fit in with those norms. And it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":326.58,"endTime":331.98,"body":"begins in the family and takes"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":326.58,"endTime":331.98,"body":"place across our lives, but it's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":331.98,"endTime":336.24,"body":"often spoken about specifically"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":331.98,"endTime":336.24,"body":"in relation to formal education"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":336.24,"endTime":339.66,"body":"or the education that takes"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":336.24,"endTime":339.66,"body":"place in institutions,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":339.69,"endTime":343.32,"body":"nurseries, schools,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":339.69,"endTime":343.32,"body":"universities. And it's the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":343.32,"endTime":349.11,"body":"latter form or education process"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":343.32,"endTime":349.11,"body":"that has been my primary area of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":349.11,"endTime":349.95,"body":"interest."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":350.43,"endTime":353.07,"body":"So, when we talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":350.43,"endTime":353.07,"body":"about school as something that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":353.1,"endTime":358.77,"body":"sifts and sorts people or labels"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":353.1,"endTime":358.77,"body":"them, we really quickly end up"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":358.77,"endTime":362.49,"body":"clashing with romantic ideas"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":358.77,"endTime":362.49,"body":"that education is this great"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":362.49,"endTime":366.78,"body":"enabler, it lets us fulfil our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":362.49,"endTime":366.78,"body":"potential; basically, the idea"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":366.78,"endTime":370.86,"body":"of meritocracy, I guess. Can you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":366.78,"endTime":370.86,"body":"talk a little bit about that,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":370.98,"endTime":375.9,"body":"particularly in terms of racism"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":370.98,"endTime":375.9,"body":"and racialization? And by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":375.9,"endTime":379.17,"body":"racialization, I mean, the way"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":375.9,"endTime":379.17,"body":"in which characteristics get"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":379.17,"endTime":382.2,"body":"ascribed to people wholesale,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":379.17,"endTime":382.2,"body":"which then shapes how they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":382.2,"endTime":384.75,"body":"encounter the world and how it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":382.2,"endTime":384.75,"body":"encounters them."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":385.26,"endTime":387.901,"body":"Yeah. So,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":385.26,"endTime":387.901,"body":"meritocracy is a really"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":387.981,"endTime":392.945,"body":"pervasive idea in our society."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":387.981,"endTime":392.945,"body":"And so, the idea is that we all"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":393.025,"endTime":398.068,"body":"enter into the education system,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":393.025,"endTime":398.068,"body":"and if we work hard and do the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":398.148,"endTime":402.391,"body":"right things, if we are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":398.148,"endTime":402.391,"body":"intelligent and deserve to do"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":402.471,"endTime":407.275,"body":"well in school, then we will, we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":402.471,"endTime":407.275,"body":"will do well in school. So,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":407.355,"endTime":412.238,"body":"education is seen as a leveler,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":407.355,"endTime":412.238,"body":"it's seen as an equal playing"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":412.318,"endTime":416.881,"body":"\"those that do well"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":412.318,"endTime":416.881,"body":"deserve to do well, those that"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":416.961,"endTime":421.604,"body":"fail deserve to fail.\" And this"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":416.961,"endTime":421.604,"body":"is, I think, premised on a"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":421.684,"endTime":426.488,"body":"denial or an erasure of the way"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":421.684,"endTime":426.488,"body":"the structures of inequality"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":426.568,"endTime":431.611,"body":"underpin education. So, there's"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":426.568,"endTime":431.611,"body":"an assumption that education is"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":431.691,"endTime":436.815,"body":"racially equal, that class isn't"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":431.691,"endTime":436.815,"body":"a factor in education. But race"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":436.895,"endTime":441.458,"body":"and class and gender and"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":436.895,"endTime":441.458,"body":"disability, all of these factors"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":441.538,"endTime":446.021,"body":"impact upon the education"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":441.538,"endTime":446.021,"body":"process. Because we live in an"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":446.101,"endTime":450.744,"body":"unequal society. Society's"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":446.101,"endTime":450.744,"body":"institutions actively reproduce"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":450.824,"endTime":455.067,"body":"those inequalities. So, the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":450.824,"endTime":455.067,"body":"critical race theorist of"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":455.147,"endTime":459.71,"body":"education, David Gillborn,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":455.147,"endTime":459.71,"body":"argues that schooling actively"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":459.791,"endTime":464.594,"body":"reproduces White supremacy. And"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":459.791,"endTime":464.594,"body":"part of the way that it does"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":464.674,"endTime":469.557,"body":"that is through this myth of"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":464.674,"endTime":469.557,"body":"meritocracy. So, if we have this"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":469.637,"endTime":474.28,"body":"idea that education is equal,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":469.637,"endTime":474.28,"body":"when Black students \"fail\" –"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":474.36,"endTime":479.484,"body":"I've done some air quotes there"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":474.36,"endTime":479.484,"body":"that can't be seen on the audio,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":479.564,"endTime":484.608,"body":"but when \"Black students fail\" –"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":479.564,"endTime":484.608,"body":"in a meritocratic society, the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":484.688,"endTime":489.251,"body":"explanation becomes that those"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":484.688,"endTime":489.251,"body":"Black students have failed"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":489.331,"endTime":493.494,"body":"because they're less"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":489.331,"endTime":493.494,"body":"intelligent, or because there's"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":493.574,"endTime":498.377,"body":"a problem with their culture, or"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":493.574,"endTime":498.377,"body":"home lives, rather than the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":498.457,"endTime":502.14,"body":"institutional racism that"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":498.457,"endTime":502.14,"body":"underpins education."},{"speaker":"field","startTime":502.32,"endTime":505.77,"body":"Remi, you argue that the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":502.32,"endTime":505.77,"body":"education systems, at least"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":505.83,"endTime":509.49,"body":"those who study in the UK, need"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":505.83,"endTime":509.49,"body":"reform, but you don't just talk"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":509.49,"endTime":511.74,"body":"about the things you usually"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":509.49,"endTime":511.74,"body":"hear, like having more"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":511.74,"endTime":515.73,"body":"apprenticeships, for example."},{"speaker":"field","startTime":511.74,"endTime":515.73,"body":"Like, you're talking about much"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":515.73,"endTime":519.18,"body":"bigger things. So, staffing, the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":515.73,"endTime":519.18,"body":"educational staff, the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":519.18,"endTime":522.51,"body":"curriculum, that kind of things."},{"speaker":"field","startTime":519.18,"endTime":522.51,"body":"Can you talk to us a bit about"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":522.51,"endTime":522.93,"body":"that?"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":523.2,"endTime":527.07,"body":"Yeah, it's a really big"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":523.2,"endTime":527.07,"body":"question. And there's a lot that"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":527.139,"endTime":531.562,"body":"I would like to say on this, on"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":527.139,"endTime":531.562,"body":"the question of reform. So, just"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":531.631,"endTime":535.64,"body":"to give a straightforward"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":531.631,"endTime":535.64,"body":"answer. First, I think there are"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":535.709,"endTime":539.717,"body":"some general changes that I"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":535.709,"endTime":539.717,"body":"think it'd be important to see"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":539.786,"endTime":544.21,"body":"in education. So, investment in"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":539.786,"endTime":544.21,"body":"schools, more teachers to ensure"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":544.279,"endTime":548.356,"body":"that those teachers are less"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":544.279,"endTime":548.356,"body":"overworked, have smaller class"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":548.425,"endTime":552.641,"body":"sizes. There's a longer history,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":548.425,"endTime":552.641,"body":"there's a really significant"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":552.71,"endTime":556.995,"body":"body of research that suggests"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":552.71,"endTime":556.995,"body":"that these things are important"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":557.064,"endTime":560.796,"body":"for our students. All of these"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":557.064,"endTime":560.796,"body":"things will improve the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":560.865,"endTime":564.598,"body":"experiences of our students, and"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":560.865,"endTime":564.598,"body":"particularly the most"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":564.667,"endTime":569.021,"body":"disadvantaged students which are"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":564.667,"endTime":569.021,"body":"racially minoritized students,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":569.09,"endTime":573.375,"body":"working-class students, LGBTQ"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":569.09,"endTime":573.375,"body":"students, disabled students, and"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":573.444,"endTime":577.176,"body":"others in marginalised"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":573.444,"endTime":577.176,"body":"positions. There are also a set"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":577.245,"endTime":581.461,"body":"of interventions specifically"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":577.245,"endTime":581.461,"body":"thinking about anti racism. So,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":581.53,"endTime":585.746,"body":"first would be the need for an"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":581.53,"endTime":585.746,"body":"overhaul of the teaching force"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":585.815,"endTime":589.478,"body":"to make it more racially"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":585.815,"endTime":589.478,"body":"diverse. Literature has been"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":589.547,"endTime":593.348,"body":"calling for this for a long"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":589.547,"endTime":593.348,"body":"time. Bernard Coard in 1971"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":593.417,"endTime":597.633,"body":"argued that we need more Black"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":593.417,"endTime":597.633,"body":"teachers in school. And that's"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":597.702,"endTime":601.849,"body":"important. But, to complicate"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":597.702,"endTime":601.849,"body":"that slightly, is worth saying"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":601.918,"endTime":606.341,"body":"we don't just need more teachers"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":601.918,"endTime":606.341,"body":"of colour, we need all teachers"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":606.41,"endTime":610.557,"body":"who are working in schools to be"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":606.41,"endTime":610.557,"body":"racially literate. Whatever"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":610.626,"endTime":614.98,"body":"their ethnicity, they need to be"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":610.626,"endTime":614.98,"body":"prepared and equipped with the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":615.049,"endTime":619.265,"body":"skills to teach in ways that"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":615.049,"endTime":619.265,"body":"promote anti-racism, to teach in"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":619.334,"endTime":622.997,"body":"diverse classrooms. I'd really"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":619.334,"endTime":622.997,"body":"want to challenge this"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":623.066,"endTime":627.489,"body":"assumption that a Black teacher"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":623.066,"endTime":627.489,"body":"is inherently anti-racist, and a"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":627.558,"endTime":631.705,"body":"White teacher is not able to do"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":627.558,"endTime":631.705,"body":"the work of anti-racism. The"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":631.774,"endTime":635.645,"body":"research I've done interviewing"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":631.774,"endTime":635.645,"body":"teachers, as well as the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":635.714,"endTime":639.722,"body":"research of others – Uvanney"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":635.714,"endTime":639.722,"body":"Maylor, for example – really,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":639.791,"endTime":644.007,"body":"really troubles that assumption"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":639.791,"endTime":644.007,"body":"as incredibly simplistic, but"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":644.076,"endTime":648.085,"body":"it's often put forward as a"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":644.076,"endTime":648.085,"body":"policy solution. Alongside the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":648.154,"endTime":652.439,"body":"need for more teachers we need"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":648.154,"endTime":652.439,"body":"to overhaul the curriculum that"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":652.508,"endTime":656.378,"body":"Claire Alexander's research, for"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":652.508,"endTime":656.378,"body":"example, is shown to be"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":656.447,"endTime":660.663,"body":"incredibly White, Eurocentric"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":656.447,"endTime":660.663,"body":"and narrow. And my point... the"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":660.732,"endTime":664.81,"body":"point that I always tried to"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":660.732,"endTime":664.81,"body":"make is that it's no good just"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":664.879,"endTime":669.233,"body":"introducing some more teachers"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":664.879,"endTime":669.233,"body":"or just tweaking the curriculum,"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":669.302,"endTime":673.311,"body":"several or all of these things"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":669.302,"endTime":673.311,"body":"need to happen at once. And"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":673.38,"endTime":677.734,"body":"there are some specific issues"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":673.38,"endTime":677.734,"body":"that I think should be looked at"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":677.803,"endTime":681.811,"body":"as well. The issue of school"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":677.803,"endTime":681.811,"body":"exclusions. School exclusions"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":681.88,"endTime":685.129,"body":"are incredibly racially"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":681.88,"endTime":685.129,"body":"disproportionate: black"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":685.198,"endTime":689.552,"body":"students, gypsy Roma, traveller"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":685.198,"endTime":689.552,"body":"students are far more likely to"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":689.621,"endTime":693.906,"body":"be excluded. And that has been"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":689.621,"endTime":693.906,"body":"the case for several decades; I"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":693.975,"endTime":697.983,"body":"don't think it can continue to"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":693.975,"endTime":697.983,"body":"be the case for any longer."},{"speaker":"field","startTime":698.053,"endTime":701.854,"body":"There's a significant campaign"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":698.053,"endTime":701.854,"body":"in the UK called No More"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":701.923,"endTime":705.517,"body":"Exclusions that have been"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":701.923,"endTime":705.517,"body":"campaigning for schools to"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":705.586,"endTime":709.594,"body":"abolish school exclusions, to"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":705.586,"endTime":709.594,"body":"find other ways to deal with"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":709.663,"endTime":713.326,"body":"students that are more"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":709.663,"endTime":713.326,"body":"supportive and caring. So, I'd"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":713.395,"endTime":717.75,"body":"really encourage people to check"},{"speaker":"field","startTime":713.395,"endTime":717.75,"body":"out that campaign and support."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":719.07,"endTime":722.1,"body":"Talking of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":719.07,"endTime":722.1,"body":"anti-racism, there's an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":722.1,"endTime":726.81,"body":"especially strong reaction to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":722.1,"endTime":726.81,"body":"Critical Race Theory. In the US"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":726.81,"endTime":729.66,"body":"in particular, there have been"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":726.81,"endTime":729.66,"body":"attempts, some of which had been"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":729.66,"endTime":733.23,"body":"successful in some states, like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":729.66,"endTime":733.23,"body":"in Florida, to ban its teaching"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":733.23,"endTime":737.22,"body":"in schools. And I hear that in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":733.23,"endTime":737.22,"body":"the UK, there have been panic"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":737.22,"endTime":742.17,"body":"questions in Parliament. So, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":737.22,"endTime":742.17,"body":"think back in January, one MP"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":742.17,"endTime":744.93,"body":"asked for reassurance that the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":742.17,"endTime":744.93,"body":"government would act against a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":744.93,"endTime":749.28,"body":"local council that was, in his"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":744.93,"endTime":749.28,"body":"words, planning to \"indoctrinate"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":749.31,"endTime":752.97,"body":"seven year olds with Critical"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":749.31,"endTime":752.97,"body":"Race Theory\". Remi, can you talk"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":752.97,"endTime":756.45,"body":"a bit about what Critical Race"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":752.97,"endTime":756.45,"body":"Theory actually is, for us, and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":756.45,"endTime":758.55,"body":"why you think it gets such a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":756.45,"endTime":758.55,"body":"reaction?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":758.55,"endTime":761.315,"body":"Yeah, so,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":758.55,"endTime":761.315,"body":"my understanding of Critical"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":761.388,"endTime":765.537,"body":"Race Theory is that it's an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":761.388,"endTime":765.537,"body":"approach to understanding the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":765.609,"endTime":770.122,"body":"social world that focuses in on"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":765.609,"endTime":770.122,"body":"the impacts of race and racism"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":770.195,"endTime":774.926,"body":"and looks at the way that racism"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":770.195,"endTime":774.926,"body":"is embedded in institutions. So,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":774.998,"endTime":779.511,"body":"when we think from a Critical"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":774.998,"endTime":779.511,"body":"Race Theory perspective we don't"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":779.584,"endTime":783.951,"body":"understand racism as something"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":779.584,"endTime":783.951,"body":"that is limited to individual"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":784.023,"endTime":788.172,"body":"prejudice or the perception of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":784.023,"endTime":788.172,"body":"individuals, but something"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":788.245,"endTime":792.248,"body":"that's at the heart of our"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":788.245,"endTime":792.248,"body":"institutions, whether that's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":792.321,"endTime":796.251,"body":"policing or education; it's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":792.321,"endTime":796.251,"body":"embedded in policies, it's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":796.324,"endTime":800.764,"body":"embedded in cultures, and it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":796.324,"endTime":800.764,"body":"reproduces itself as individuals"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":800.836,"endTime":805.276,"body":"move in and out. So, it's a far"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":800.836,"endTime":805.276,"body":"more critical way of thinking"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":805.349,"endTime":809.716,"body":"about racism. It's a way of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":805.349,"endTime":809.716,"body":"thinking about racism that is in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":809.789,"endTime":813.864,"body":"keeping with the radical"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":809.789,"endTime":813.864,"body":"traditions of Black populations"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":813.937,"endTime":818.522,"body":"in the, in the UK and elsewhere."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":813.937,"endTime":818.522,"body":"And the reason it has received"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":818.595,"endTime":822.598,"body":"such a backlash is partly"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":818.595,"endTime":822.598,"body":"because that understanding of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":822.671,"endTime":826.893,"body":"racism as an institutional"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":822.671,"endTime":826.893,"body":"problem, I think, is key to the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":826.965,"endTime":831.405,"body":"racial progress we need to see."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":826.965,"endTime":831.405,"body":"It's far more comfortable for"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":831.478,"endTime":836.136,"body":"the government to ... or thosse"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":831.478,"endTime":836.136,"body":"in power to understand racism as"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":836.209,"endTime":840.285,"body":"a problem of uneducated"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":836.209,"endTime":840.285,"body":"individuals. But, that's perhaps"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":840.357,"endTime":844.36,"body":"overly generous to the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":840.357,"endTime":844.36,"body":"intentions and understandings of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":844.433,"endTime":848.291,"body":"those that have levelled an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":844.433,"endTime":848.291,"body":"attacker of Critical Race"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":848.363,"endTime":852.512,"body":"Theory; it suggests that it's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":848.363,"endTime":852.512,"body":"perhaps more just a general"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":852.585,"endTime":856.879,"body":"attempt to undermine anybody"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":852.585,"endTime":856.879,"body":"talking about race and racism,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":856.952,"endTime":861.61,"body":"anyone involved in anti-racism."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":856.952,"endTime":861.61,"body":"It's interesting that we saw it,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":861.683,"endTime":866.05,"body":"combined with or be attached to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":861.683,"endTime":866.05,"body":"an attack on the Black Lives"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":866.122,"endTime":870.781,"body":"Matter movement. So, perhaps the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":866.122,"endTime":870.781,"body":"government, those in power, are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":870.853,"endTime":875.147,"body":"concerned about those mass"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":870.853,"endTime":875.147,"body":"mobilizations, those multiracial"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":875.22,"endTime":880.17,"body":"mobilizations and people using"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":875.22,"endTime":880.17,"body":"the language of institutional racism."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":881.16,"endTime":884.64,"body":"Okay, so"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":881.16,"endTime":884.64,"body":"it's clear that school is hardly"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":884.64,"endTime":887.94,"body":"some bubble insulated from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":884.64,"endTime":887.94,"body":"broader social norms, power"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":887.94,"endTime":892.32,"body":"relations and institutions."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":887.94,"endTime":892.32,"body":"Remi, you've done work on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":892.32,"endTime":895.59,"body":"policing in schools in the UK."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":892.32,"endTime":895.59,"body":"Before we get to your own"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":895.59,"endTime":899.67,"body":"findings, can you tell me what"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":895.59,"endTime":899.67,"body":"the situation with policing in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":899.67,"endTime":903.18,"body":"schools actually looks like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":899.67,"endTime":903.18,"body":"across age groups, some facts"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":903.18,"endTime":907.32,"body":"and figures? I ask because for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":903.18,"endTime":907.32,"body":"my part, I remember community"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":907.32,"endTime":911.34,"body":"officers coming to school and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":907.32,"endTime":911.34,"body":"telling us not to steal or not"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":911.34,"endTime":915.93,"body":"to do drugs, etc. But I know"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":911.34,"endTime":915.93,"body":"that police presence can look"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":915.93,"endTime":917.88,"body":"very different in some schools"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":915.93,"endTime":917.88,"body":"today."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":918.33,"endTime":923.43,"body":"Yeah. So,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":918.33,"endTime":923.43,"body":"in the UK, the latest available"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":923.43,"endTime":928.17,"body":"evidence suggests that there are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":923.43,"endTime":928.17,"body":"683 school-based police"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":928.17,"endTime":932.64,"body":"officers. They're mainly"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":928.17,"endTime":932.64,"body":"clustered around London, but"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":932.64,"endTime":935.79,"body":"they're, they're in a lot of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":932.64,"endTime":935.79,"body":"other areas too. And there's an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":935.79,"endTime":939.39,"body":"awful lot of momentum to put"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":935.79,"endTime":939.39,"body":"more police in schools. So,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":939.39,"endTime":943.35,"body":"they're being called from"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":939.39,"endTime":943.35,"body":"Cressida Dick, who was the head"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":943.35,"endTime":948.45,"body":"of Metropolitan Police, Sadiq"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":943.35,"endTime":948.45,"body":"Khan, as Mayor of London, Andy"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":948.45,"endTime":952.11,"body":"Burnham, as Mayor of Greater"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":948.45,"endTime":952.11,"body":"Manchester, and politicians"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":952.11,"endTime":957.21,"body":"across the political spectrum,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":952.11,"endTime":957.21,"body":"including left-wing politicians."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":957.96,"endTime":962.88,"body":"The count, I mentioned earlier"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":957.96,"endTime":962.88,"body":"of 683 based in schools. That's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":962.88,"endTime":966.45,"body":"the official count that focuses"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":962.88,"endTime":966.45,"body":"specifically on those officers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":966.45,"endTime":971.13,"body":"that have, for example, an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":966.45,"endTime":971.13,"body":"office in the school and spent"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":971.13,"endTime":974.58,"body":"the majority of their time in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":971.13,"endTime":974.58,"body":"there. But there's a whole range"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":974.58,"endTime":978.33,"body":"of wider relationships that see"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":974.58,"endTime":978.33,"body":"police officers spending a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":978.33,"endTime":983.37,"body":"significant amount of their time"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":978.33,"endTime":983.37,"body":"in schools. So, the number in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":983.37,"endTime":987.3,"body":"reality is far higher than than"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":983.37,"endTime":987.3,"body":"we're led to believe."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":987.72,"endTime":990.54,"body":"Can you tell"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":987.72,"endTime":990.54,"body":"us about your research, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":990.54,"endTime":993.51,"body":"research you've done on this?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":990.54,"endTime":993.51,"body":"What questions have mattered to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":993.51,"endTime":995.91,"body":"you? Where and what have you"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":993.51,"endTime":995.91,"body":"found?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":996.03,"endTime":998.744,"body":"Yeah, so"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":996.03,"endTime":998.744,"body":"actually, the interest in this"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":998.814,"endTime":1003.338,"body":"as an issue emerged whilst I was"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":998.814,"endTime":1003.338,"body":"doing some research on racism in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1003.407,"endTime":1007.862,"body":"schools, interviewing teachers,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1003.407,"endTime":1007.862,"body":"for a project that was published"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1007.932,"endTime":1012.038,"body":"with The Runnymede Trust called"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1007.932,"endTime":1012.038,"body":"\"Race and Racism in English"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1012.108,"endTime":1016.423,"body":"Secondary Schools\". And as I was"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1012.108,"endTime":1016.423,"body":"doing that research, going to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1016.493,"endTime":1020.53,"body":"schools to speak to these"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1016.493,"endTime":1020.53,"body":"teachers, I was really struck at"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1020.599,"endTime":1025.054,"body":"how frequently I would encounter"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1020.599,"endTime":1025.054,"body":"a police officer in the school,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1025.123,"endTime":1029.508,"body":"at the reception, walking around"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1025.123,"endTime":1029.508,"body":"the building, and driving into"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1029.578,"endTime":1033.754,"body":"the car park. It was almost"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1029.578,"endTime":1033.754,"body":"every time I went into a school."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1033.824,"endTime":1038.139,"body":"And again, these are the kinds"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1033.824,"endTime":1038.139,"body":"of schools that are not counted"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1038.209,"endTime":1042.246,"body":"within that 683 schools with"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1038.209,"endTime":1042.246,"body":"school based police officers."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1042.315,"endTime":1046.492,"body":"So, it piqued my interest. And"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1042.315,"endTime":1046.492,"body":"at this time, I was also at a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1046.561,"endTime":1050.876,"body":"number of community events where"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1046.561,"endTime":1050.876,"body":"I heard from young people who"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1050.946,"endTime":1054.983,"body":"were particularly young people"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1050.946,"endTime":1054.983,"body":"of colour, who were sharing"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1055.053,"endTime":1058.95,"body":"experiences about policing"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1055.053,"endTime":1058.95,"body":"schools and raising concerns,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1059.02,"endTime":1062.987,"body":"raising the alarm about the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1059.02,"endTime":1062.987,"body":"impacts of police in schools."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1063.057,"endTime":1067.233,"body":"So, that's when I thought it is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1063.057,"endTime":1067.233,"body":"something that needs looking"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1067.303,"endTime":1071.409,"body":"into more closely. So, in the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1067.303,"endTime":1071.409,"body":"research, I spoke to teachers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1071.479,"endTime":1075.655,"body":"who explained to me how they"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1071.479,"endTime":1075.655,"body":"wanted to create classrooms and"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1075.725,"endTime":1079.762,"body":"school-based communities that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1075.725,"endTime":1079.762,"body":"were inclusive, that brought"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1079.831,"endTime":1084.286,"body":"along all the students and made"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1079.831,"endTime":1084.286,"body":"our students feel welcome. And a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1084.355,"endTime":1088.462,"body":"number of teachers suggested"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1084.355,"endTime":1088.462,"body":"that the presence of police in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1088.532,"endTime":1092.986,"body":"schools undermined that sense of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1088.532,"endTime":1092.986,"body":"inclusion, undermined the sense"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1093.056,"endTime":1097.162,"body":"of safety. Particularly for"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1093.056,"endTime":1097.162,"body":"those students who already come"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1097.232,"endTime":1101.408,"body":"from overpoliced communities."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1097.232,"endTime":1101.408,"body":"Those students who are stopped"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1101.478,"endTime":1105.793,"body":"andsearched outside of school,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1101.478,"endTime":1105.793,"body":"on their way to school, to then"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1105.863,"endTime":1109.969,"body":"have a police officer in school"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1105.863,"endTime":1109.969,"body":"was seen as disrupting that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1110.039,"endTime":1113.589,"body":"sense of being welcome for"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1110.039,"endTime":1113.589,"body":"everybody. Teachers also"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1113.658,"endTime":1118.113,"body":"explained that they often saw it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1113.658,"endTime":1118.113,"body":"as symbolic of a culture of low"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1118.182,"endTime":1122.567,"body":"expectations in schools. So, it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1118.182,"endTime":1122.567,"body":"symbolises to young people that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1122.637,"endTime":1126.256,"body":"what is expected of them is not"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1122.637,"endTime":1126.256,"body":"high attainment but,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1126.326,"endTime":1130.572,"body":"potentially, to be engaged in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1126.326,"endTime":1130.572,"body":"criminal activity that requires"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1130.641,"endTime":1135.096,"body":"a response from police officers."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1130.641,"endTime":1135.096,"body":"And one important point to make"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1135.165,"endTime":1139.55,"body":"there is the case in the UK, but"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1135.165,"endTime":1139.55,"body":"it's also the case wherever we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1139.62,"endTime":1143.935,"body":"see school-based police officers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1139.62,"endTime":1143.935,"body":"– so, it's the case in the US"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1144.005,"endTime":1148.251,"body":"and it's the case in Canada, as"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1144.005,"endTime":1148.251,"body":"well. School-based police are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1148.32,"endTime":1152.218,"body":"not in all schools. They're in,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1148.32,"endTime":1152.218,"body":"primarily, in schools in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1152.288,"endTime":1155.837,"body":"working-class areas and with"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1152.288,"endTime":1155.837,"body":"significant racialized"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1155.907,"endTime":1159.805,"body":"populations. So, in the UK,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1155.907,"endTime":1159.805,"body":"particularly areas with high"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1159.874,"endTime":1163.772,"body":"proportion of Black and South"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1159.874,"endTime":1163.772,"body":"Asian students. In the US,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1163.842,"endTime":1167.74,"body":"particularly areas with high"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1163.842,"endTime":1167.74,"body":"African American and Latino"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1167.809,"endTime":1171.707,"body":"populations. And that has"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1167.809,"endTime":1171.707,"body":"implications for which schools"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1171.777,"endTime":1176.51,"body":"are stigmatised and which pupils"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1171.777,"endTime":1176.51,"body":"are more likely to be criminalised."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1176.99,"endTime":1179.69,"body":"So, it seems what"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1176.99,"endTime":1179.69,"body":"we've been getting at is this"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1179.69,"endTime":1182.81,"body":"idea of school as a site of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1179.69,"endTime":1182.81,"body":"disciplining and of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1182.81,"endTime":1185.15,"body":"surveillance. Remi, you've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1182.81,"endTime":1185.15,"body":"written about the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1185.15,"endTime":1189.11,"body":"school-to-prison pipeline. Is"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1185.15,"endTime":1189.11,"body":"that as depressing as it sounds?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1189.44,"endTime":1192.89,"body":"Could you tell us what that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1189.44,"endTime":1192.89,"body":"looks like? What the biography"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1192.89,"endTime":1195.29,"body":"might be of someone who"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1192.89,"endTime":1195.29,"body":"experiences that?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1196.19,"endTime":1199.255,"body":"Yeah, so,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1196.19,"endTime":1199.255,"body":"the school-to-prison pipeline is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1199.328,"endTime":1203.78,"body":"a concept that has gained far"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1199.328,"endTime":1203.78,"body":"more traction in the US, but it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1203.853,"endTime":1208.013,"body":"is significant in the UK too,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1203.853,"endTime":1208.013,"body":"and people are increasingly"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1208.086,"endTime":1212.393,"body":"starting to talk about it here."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1208.086,"endTime":1212.393,"body":"The concept of the pipeline"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1212.466,"endTime":1216.918,"body":"describes the ways in which some"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1212.466,"endTime":1216.918,"body":"young people are pushed from"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1216.991,"endTime":1221.005,"body":"schools into prisons, or into"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1216.991,"endTime":1221.005,"body":"contact with the criminal"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1221.078,"endTime":1225.457,"body":"justice system that eventually"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1221.078,"endTime":1225.457,"body":"leads to their incarceration."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1225.53,"endTime":1230.056,"body":"So, there are a whole range of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1225.53,"endTime":1230.056,"body":"factors that feed the pipeline."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1230.129,"endTime":1234.581,"body":"School exclusions are one, young"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1230.129,"endTime":1234.581,"body":"people who are excluded from"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1234.654,"endTime":1238.887,"body":"school and more likely to go on"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1234.654,"endTime":1238.887,"body":"to be incarcerated. School"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1238.96,"endTime":1242.901,"body":"discipline, generally – both"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1238.96,"endTime":1242.901,"body":"significantly – police in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1242.974,"endTime":1247.062,"body":"schools are a part of the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1242.974,"endTime":1247.062,"body":"school-to-prison pipeline. And"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1247.135,"endTime":1251.514,"body":"we see that most obviously, to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1247.135,"endTime":1251.514,"body":"give an example, in issues in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1251.587,"endTime":1256.258,"body":"schools that previously, when I"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1251.587,"endTime":1256.258,"body":"was at school – even now in some"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1256.331,"endTime":1260.929,"body":"schools – might be dealt with,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1256.331,"endTime":1260.929,"body":"with a talking to from a teacher"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1261.002,"endTime":1265.381,"body":"or a detention, in schools with"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1261.002,"endTime":1265.381,"body":"school-based police officers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1265.454,"endTime":1269.615,"body":"what we're seeing is that that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1265.454,"endTime":1269.615,"body":"discipline, that behaviour"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1269.688,"endTime":1273.848,"body":"management is becoming the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1269.688,"endTime":1273.848,"body":"purview of school-based police"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1273.921,"endTime":1278.008,"body":"officers. And police officers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1273.921,"endTime":1278.008,"body":"default invariably, to the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1278.081,"endTime":1282.606,"body":"criminal justice orientation,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1278.081,"endTime":1282.606,"body":"that creates a danger that these"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1282.679,"endTime":1286.913,"body":"issues escalate and become"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1282.679,"endTime":1286.913,"body":"criminal issues. And when we're"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1286.986,"endTime":1290.489,"body":"thinking about the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1286.986,"endTime":1290.489,"body":"school-to-prison pipeline, is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1290.562,"endTime":1295.16,"body":"important to recognise that, in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1290.562,"endTime":1295.16,"body":"the UK, we incarcerate far more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1295.233,"endTime":1299.466,"body":"of our population than the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1295.233,"endTime":1299.466,"body":"majority of Europe. Over 50% of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1299.539,"endTime":1303.992,"body":"the youth justice estate are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1299.539,"endTime":1303.992,"body":"young people of colour. And this"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1304.065,"endTime":1308.006,"body":"one is always, I think,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1304.065,"endTime":1308.006,"body":"surprising to people, that the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1308.079,"endTime":1312.531,"body":"UK imprisons a higher proportion"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1308.079,"endTime":1312.531,"body":"of its Black population than"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1312.604,"endTime":1316.545,"body":"does the US. So, these are,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1312.604,"endTime":1316.545,"body":"these are not just distant"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1316.618,"endTime":1320.925,"body":"problems. These are issues in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1316.618,"endTime":1320.925,"body":"the UK too. And I should also"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1320.998,"endTime":1324.647,"body":"say that a significant"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1320.998,"endTime":1324.647,"body":"proportion of the UK prison"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1324.72,"endTime":1329.245,"body":"estate is privatised. So, when"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1324.72,"endTime":1329.245,"body":"the Conservative government say"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1329.318,"endTime":1333.406,"body":"that they want to increase, to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1329.318,"endTime":1333.406,"body":"create 10,000 more prison"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1333.479,"endTime":1337.712,"body":"places, we can be sure that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1333.479,"endTime":1337.712,"body":"those 10,000 prison places are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1337.785,"endTime":1341.945,"body":"going to be filled. And the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1337.785,"endTime":1341.945,"body":"danger here, with introducing"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1342.018,"endTime":1346.251,"body":"more police in schools, is that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1342.018,"endTime":1346.251,"body":"that creates a very direct"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1346.324,"endTime":1350.703,"body":"pipeline from those schools in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1346.324,"endTime":1350.703,"body":"working-class areas with high"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1350.776,"endTime":1354.864,"body":"racially minoritized populations"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1350.776,"endTime":1354.864,"body":"into prisons. And those"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1354.937,"endTime":1359.17,"body":"disparities, that I've just"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1354.937,"endTime":1359.17,"body":"mentioned there, will continue"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1359.243,"endTime":1362.09,"body":"to manifest and even become more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1359.243,"endTime":1362.09,"body":"stark."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1362.3,"endTime":1365.45,"body":"Yes. It's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1362.3,"endTime":1365.45,"body":"interesting. You, you kind of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1365.45,"endTime":1367.91,"body":"mentioned the role of exclusions"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1365.45,"endTime":1367.91,"body":"and you spoke about that at the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1367.91,"endTime":1372.62,"body":"beginning of the programme. And"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1367.91,"endTime":1372.62,"body":"also detention. I mean, I think"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1372.62,"endTime":1375.14,"body":"I said right at the beginning,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1372.62,"endTime":1375.14,"body":"school just reminds me of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1375.14,"endTime":1378.29,"body":"detention and all of those ... I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1375.14,"endTime":1378.29,"body":"mean, I don't mean to sound"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1378.29,"endTime":1381.26,"body":"trite, but there's this whole"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1378.29,"endTime":1381.26,"body":"pop cultural thing about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1385.34,"body":"detention kind of being funny,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1381.26,"endTime":1385.34,"body":"and there are whole movies based"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1385.34,"endTime":1388.19,"body":"on kids being in detention,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1385.34,"endTime":1388.19,"body":"right? But from what you're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1388.19,"endTime":1391.46,"body":"saying, it's really actually not"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1388.19,"endTime":1391.46,"body":"that funny at all. There's quite"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1391.46,"endTime":1393.08,"body":"a serious side to all of this."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1393.11,"endTime":1395.84,"body":"Yeah. And"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1393.11,"endTime":1395.84,"body":"I think we can even think about"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1395.84,"endTime":1400.76,"body":"the pipeline here a little more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1395.84,"endTime":1400.76,"body":"expansively, or even"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1401.0,"endTime":1404.51,"body":"metaphorically, but there are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1401.0,"endTime":1404.51,"body":"processes within the school"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1404.51,"endTime":1408.77,"body":"where we're made to do certain"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1404.51,"endTime":1408.77,"body":"things to move at certain times"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1408.77,"endTime":1414.02,"body":"where young people are detained"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1408.77,"endTime":1414.02,"body":"in a room for detention. These"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1414.02,"endTime":1417.41,"body":"are early manifestations of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1414.02,"endTime":1417.41,"body":"those forms of control that we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1417.41,"endTime":1422.24,"body":"see become far more severe in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1417.41,"endTime":1422.24,"body":"prisons. But there's these"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1422.27,"endTime":1426.47,"body":"logics, this sense that we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1422.27,"endTime":1426.47,"body":"should use detention, we should"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1426.47,"endTime":1429.35,"body":"use punishment. They're so"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1426.47,"endTime":1429.35,"body":"deeply embedded that people"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1429.35,"endTime":1432.2,"body":"don't even question them. But"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1429.35,"endTime":1432.2,"body":"there are, you know, a range of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1432.2,"endTime":1436.16,"body":"more caring interventions that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1432.2,"endTime":1436.16,"body":"we could look to. There's been a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1436.16,"endTime":1440.45,"body":"lot of talk over the last few"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1436.16,"endTime":1440.45,"body":"years about defunding the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1440.45,"endTime":1446.15,"body":"police. And those arguments are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1440.45,"endTime":1446.15,"body":"often caricatured, but they're"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1446.15,"endTime":1449.78,"body":"quite powerful and we can apply"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1446.15,"endTime":1449.78,"body":"them to the role of school-based"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1449.78,"endTime":1454.49,"body":"police officers. Simply, a more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1449.78,"endTime":1454.49,"body":"progressive solution would not"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1454.49,"endTime":1459.38,"body":"be to fund school police"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1454.49,"endTime":1459.38,"body":"programmes but to invest that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1459.38,"endTime":1463.58,"body":"money in schools and in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1459.38,"endTime":1463.58,"body":"communities to reopen the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1463.58,"endTime":1467.15,"body":"libraries that have been gutted"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1463.58,"endTime":1467.15,"body":"by austerity and to invest more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1467.15,"endTime":1470.57,"body":"positively. And I think we can"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1467.15,"endTime":1470.57,"body":"confidently say that the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1470.57,"endTime":1474.29,"body":"evidence suggests that those"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1470.57,"endTime":1474.29,"body":"interventions are far, far more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1474.35,"endTime":1477.98,"body":"productive in enabling young"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1474.35,"endTime":1477.98,"body":"people to live their lives."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1478.22,"endTime":1481.13,"body":"Expanding on"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1478.22,"endTime":1481.13,"body":"these notions of control and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1481.13,"endTime":1484.76,"body":"incarceration, at the University"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1481.13,"endTime":1484.76,"body":"of Ottawa, I'm part of an"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1484.76,"endTime":1487.49,"body":"initiative with two other"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1484.76,"endTime":1487.49,"body":"colleagues called \"Walls to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1487.49,"endTime":1491.15,"body":"Bridges\", where we hold"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1487.49,"endTime":1491.15,"body":"university courses in detention"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1491.15,"endTime":1495.8,"body":"centres. And our students are"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1491.15,"endTime":1495.8,"body":"drawn from both the University"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1496.19,"endTime":1502.49,"body":"and from the prison institution."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1496.19,"endTime":1502.49,"body":"So, the idea is to essentially"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1502.55,"endTime":1506.3,"body":"think together and share our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1502.55,"endTime":1506.3,"body":"experiences and learn from that,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1506.3,"endTime":1510.11,"body":"instead of making differences"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1506.3,"endTime":1510.11,"body":"between individuals. Remi, I'm"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1510.11,"endTime":1513.89,"body":"wondering how you regard the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1510.11,"endTime":1513.89,"body":"idea of prison education, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1513.89,"endTime":1518.03,"body":"what you know of its role and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1513.89,"endTime":1518.03,"body":"status in the UK? Or more"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1518.03,"endTime":1522.11,"body":"broadly maybe – and I know that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1518.03,"endTime":1522.11,"body":"there are, like, different kinds"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1522.17,"endTime":1528.35,"body":"of programmes like that – but do"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1522.17,"endTime":1528.35,"body":"they participate in reducing the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1528.35,"endTime":1533.06,"body":"inequalities? Or maybe do they"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1528.35,"endTime":1533.06,"body":"participate in exacerbating"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1533.15,"endTime":1535.76,"body":"those differences and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1533.15,"endTime":1535.76,"body":"inequalities?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1536.24,"endTime":1540.32,"body":"Yeah. So,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1536.24,"endTime":1540.32,"body":"there are similar programmes in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1540.32,"endTime":1543.56,"body":"the UK. And as I think you"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1540.32,"endTime":1543.56,"body":"alluded to, in your question"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1543.56,"endTime":1548.54,"body":"there, my understanding is that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1543.56,"endTime":1548.54,"body":"it can vary greatly in terms of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1548.93,"endTime":1552.08,"body":"the way they're set up and what"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1548.93,"endTime":1552.08,"body":"their purpose is. I think there"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1552.08,"endTime":1557.9,"body":"can be ... Such programmes can"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1552.08,"endTime":1557.9,"body":"be incredibly important. But"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1558.8,"endTime":1562.22,"body":"what's key is that they're not"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1558.8,"endTime":1562.22,"body":"just reproducing the forms of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1562.22,"endTime":1566.24,"body":"education that have likely"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1562.22,"endTime":1566.24,"body":"already alienated those people"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1566.24,"endTime":1568.67,"body":"that have come to be"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1566.24,"endTime":1568.67,"body":"incarcerated."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1568.88,"endTime":1570.68,"body":"Thanks, Remi."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1568.88,"endTime":1570.68,"body":"We'll be back with you in a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1570.68,"endTime":1573.62,"body":"moment. After a quick word for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1570.68,"endTime":1573.62,"body":"our producer, Alice."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1575.75,"endTime":1577.76,"body":"You're listening to"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1575.75,"endTime":1577.76,"body":"Uncommon Sense, from the"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1577.76,"endTime":1581.0,"body":"Sociological Review, where we"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1577.76,"endTime":1581.0,"body":"take concepts we all think we"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1581.0,"endTime":1584.36,"body":"know – everyday things like"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1581.0,"endTime":1584.36,"body":"care, bodies, or today's"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1584.36,"endTime":1587.84,"body":"subject, school – and meet"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1584.36,"endTime":1587.84,"body":"guests who help us to cast them"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1587.87,"endTime":1591.5,"body":"in a whole new light. It's about"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1587.87,"endTime":1591.5,"body":"seeing our world anew, and"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1591.5,"endTime":1595.1,"body":"challenging assumptions too. All"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1591.5,"endTime":1595.1,"body":"with the view that change is"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1595.1,"endTime":1598.1,"body":"possible. You can find"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1595.1,"endTime":1598.1,"body":"recommended reading and more on"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1598.1,"endTime":1601.94,"body":"the podcast page at"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1598.1,"endTime":1601.94,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org. And"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1601.94,"endTime":1604.64,"body":"remember to tap \"follow\" or"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1601.94,"endTime":1604.64,"body":"\"subscribe\" in the app that"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1604.64,"endTime":1607.7,"body":"you're using to hear this right"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1604.64,"endTime":1607.7,"body":"now. It's really easy and it"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1607.7,"endTime":1610.91,"body":"helps us to keep bringing"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1607.7,"endTime":1610.91,"body":"Uncommon Sense to you. And do"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1610.91,"endTime":1613.4,"body":"share this episode with the"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1610.91,"endTime":1613.4,"body":"student or the questioning"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1613.4,"endTime":1617.03,"body":"critic in your life. You"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1613.4,"endTime":1617.03,"body":"absolutely do not have to be a"},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1617.03,"endTime":1619.88,"body":"sociologist to think like one."},{"speaker":"Alice Bloch","startTime":1617.03,"endTime":1619.88,"body":"Thanks for listening."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1624.86,"endTime":1627.14,"body":"Okay, so"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1624.86,"endTime":1627.14,"body":"something we want to do with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1627.35,"endTime":1630.92,"body":"Uncommon Sense is to create a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1627.35,"endTime":1630.92,"body":"space to stop and question those"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1630.92,"endTime":1634.13,"body":"ideas that have become so"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1630.92,"endTime":1634.13,"body":"commonplace that we don't stop"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1634.13,"endTime":1637.67,"body":"to question, whether they're"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1634.13,"endTime":1637.67,"body":"true or fair, or whether they"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1637.67,"endTime":1641.66,"body":"even do harm. We looked at"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1637.67,"endTime":1641.66,"body":"self-care recently, with Bev"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1641.66,"endTime":1645.5,"body":"Skeggs, and today we want to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1641.66,"endTime":1645.5,"body":"look at a trope that's proven"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1645.53,"endTime":1646.43,"body":"pretty resilient."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1646.46,"endTime":1649.97,"body":"Oh, resilience."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1646.46,"endTime":1649.97,"body":"Ha. Wow, I think that one's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1649.97,"endTime":1653.57,"body":"gonna be one for another day,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1649.97,"endTime":1653.57,"body":"Alexis. Today we're focusing on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1653.57,"endTime":1657.59,"body":"the idea of the inspirational"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1653.57,"endTime":1657.59,"body":"\"super teacher\", the person who"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1657.59,"endTime":1662.33,"body":"walks into a classroom and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1657.59,"endTime":1662.33,"body":"magically transforms a student's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1662.33,"endTime":1666.17,"body":"life, multiple students lives."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1662.33,"endTime":1666.17,"body":"If you haven't had one in your"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1666.17,"endTime":1671.18,"body":"own life, you will for sure have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1666.17,"endTime":1671.18,"body":"seen it in films. So, Miss Honey"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1671.18,"endTime":1675.05,"body":"in Matilda, Whoopi Goldberg,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1671.18,"endTime":1675.05,"body":"Sister Mary Clarence in Sister"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1675.05,"endTime":1679.1,"body":"Act, Robin Williams in Dead"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1675.05,"endTime":1679.1,"body":"Poets Society. It's an image"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1679.19,"endTime":1682.73,"body":"often pushed in ads trying to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1679.19,"endTime":1682.73,"body":"recruit new teachers as well."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1683.15,"endTime":1685.97,"body":"Remi, is the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1683.15,"endTime":1685.97,"body":"inspiration of \"super teacher\""},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1685.97,"endTime":1690.23,"body":"real or is it a kind of fantasy?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1685.97,"endTime":1690.23,"body":"Perhaps, in fact, the very"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1690.23,"endTime":1694.22,"body":"reason we're so drawn to it in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1690.23,"endTime":1694.22,"body":"pop culture, we all want that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1694.22,"endTime":1696.98,"body":"parent figure who sees our true"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1694.22,"endTime":1696.98,"body":"potential."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1697.16,"endTime":1699.931,"body":"This is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1697.16,"endTime":1699.931,"body":"an interesting question for me,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1700.003,"endTime":1703.698,"body":"because at each stage of my"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1700.003,"endTime":1703.698,"body":"education, and certainly"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1703.77,"endTime":1707.75,"body":"secondary school, college, which"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1703.77,"endTime":1707.75,"body":"in UK is aged 16 to 80,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1707.821,"endTime":1711.659,"body":"generally. And at university"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1707.821,"endTime":1711.659,"body":"there, there has been one"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1711.73,"endTime":1715.781,"body":"specific teacher each stage that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1711.73,"endTime":1715.781,"body":"has really influenced my"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1715.852,"endTime":1719.406,"body":"educational experience and"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1715.852,"endTime":1719.406,"body":"trajectory. And in some"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1719.477,"endTime":1723.955,"body":"contexts, I would describe what"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1719.477,"endTime":1723.955,"body":"they did as \"super\". So I think"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1724.026,"endTime":1728.29,"body":"it's important to pay homage to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1724.026,"endTime":1728.29,"body":"what they do and some of the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1728.362,"endTime":1732.342,"body":"amazing work of the teachers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1728.362,"endTime":1732.342,"body":"that I interviewed who were"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1732.413,"endTime":1736.251,"body":"incredibly committed to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1732.413,"endTime":1736.251,"body":"anti-racism at schools. At the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1736.322,"endTime":1740.729,"body":"same time, I really think that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1736.322,"endTime":1740.729,"body":"this is a myth that needs to be"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1740.8,"endTime":1744.282,"body":"challenged. It is really"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1740.8,"endTime":1744.282,"body":"romanticised and I think"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1744.353,"endTime":1748.192,"body":"generally overstated, and a lot"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1744.353,"endTime":1748.192,"body":"of the popular culture"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1748.263,"endTime":1752.598,"body":"depictions of this are often"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1748.263,"endTime":1752.598,"body":"reliant on a pathologization, or"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1752.669,"endTime":1757.218,"body":"stigmatisation of certain groups"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1752.669,"endTime":1757.218,"body":"of students, particularly Black"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1757.289,"endTime":1761.554,"body":"students. And I think there are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1757.289,"endTime":1761.554,"body":"a range of problems with it."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1761.625,"endTime":1765.463,"body":"Most notably, that places a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1761.625,"endTime":1765.463,"body":"particular burden on those"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1765.534,"endTime":1769.941,"body":"teachers that are seen as the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1765.534,"endTime":1769.941,"body":"\"super teachers\", those teachers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1770.012,"endTime":1774.276,"body":"that are tasked as having to do"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1770.012,"endTime":1774.276,"body":"the anti-racist work. And it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1774.347,"endTime":1778.896,"body":"goes back to some of the earlier"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1774.347,"endTime":1778.896,"body":"discussion about the importance"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1778.967,"endTime":1783.232,"body":"of understanding how issues"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1778.967,"endTime":1783.232,"body":"become institutionalised, and we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1783.303,"endTime":1787.141,"body":"can say the same about"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1783.303,"endTime":1787.141,"body":"solutions. So, if the good work"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1787.212,"endTime":1791.263,"body":"is seen as a responsibility of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1787.212,"endTime":1791.263,"body":"one individual teacher, is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1791.334,"endTime":1795.172,"body":"likely that that's a heavy"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1791.334,"endTime":1795.172,"body":"burden to carry, that those"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1795.243,"endTime":1799.508,"body":"teachers are likely to face"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1795.243,"endTime":1799.508,"body":"stress and be more likely to get"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1799.579,"endTime":1803.915,"body":"pushed out of the profession."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1799.579,"endTime":1803.915,"body":"And even if they decide to move"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1803.986,"endTime":1808.321,"body":"to another school, all of that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1803.986,"endTime":1808.321,"body":"good work no longer remains in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1808.392,"endTime":1812.799,"body":"the school. So, what's needed is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1808.392,"endTime":1812.799,"body":"for these interventions to be"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1812.87,"endTime":1816.14,"body":"embedded within the institution"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1812.87,"endTime":1816.14,"body":"of the school."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1816.17,"endTime":1819.35,"body":"Remi, I guess,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1816.17,"endTime":1819.35,"body":"even if individual staff are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1819.35,"endTime":1822.5,"body":"\"super teachers\", their work"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1819.35,"endTime":1822.5,"body":"will be undermined if they are"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1822.5,"endTime":1824.63,"body":"made to feel uncomfortable"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1822.5,"endTime":1824.63,"body":"because of their school's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1824.63,"endTime":1829.04,"body":"policies about something like"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1824.63,"endTime":1829.04,"body":"uniform or undesirable hair, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1829.04,"endTime":1832.01,"body":"know that you've written about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1829.04,"endTime":1832.01,"body":"that. Or if they teach you a"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1832.01,"endTime":1835.43,"body":"curriculum that doesn't"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1832.01,"endTime":1835.43,"body":"necessarily recognise them. I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1835.43,"endTime":1837.95,"body":"mean, we were talking it right"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1835.43,"endTime":1837.95,"body":"at the start, at the top of the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1837.95,"endTime":1841.79,"body":"programme, about how some people"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1837.95,"endTime":1841.79,"body":"are better positioned to enjoy"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1841.79,"endTime":1844.91,"body":"school than others. And I guess"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1841.79,"endTime":1844.91,"body":"that could apply to teachers as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1844.91,"endTime":1845.45,"body":"well, right?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1846.17,"endTime":1848.675,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1846.17,"endTime":1848.675,"body":"definitely. So, as stronger"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1848.75,"endTime":1853.001,"body":"intentions as many teachers"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1848.75,"endTime":1853.001,"body":"might have to do anti-racist"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1853.077,"endTime":1857.556,"body":"work in schools, they're often"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1853.077,"endTime":1857.556,"body":"explained to me that they're"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1857.632,"endTime":1862.11,"body":"incredibly constrained by a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1857.632,"endTime":1862.11,"body":"range of factors, including the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1862.186,"endTime":1866.437,"body":"workload, which is worth noting,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1862.186,"endTime":1866.437,"body":"but also a prescriptive"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1866.513,"endTime":1870.46,"body":"curriculum that doesn't allow"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1866.513,"endTime":1870.46,"body":"room for more critical"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1870.536,"endTime":1875.319,"body":"anti-racist work and a lack of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1870.536,"endTime":1875.319,"body":"the resources that are needed to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1875.395,"endTime":1879.797,"body":"deliver a more progressive"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1875.395,"endTime":1879.797,"body":"curriculum. And yeah, there are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1879.873,"endTime":1883.896,"body":"often institutionalised policies"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1879.873,"endTime":1883.896,"body":"that can be directly"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1883.972,"endTime":1888.527,"body":"contradictory to the aims of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1883.972,"endTime":1888.527,"body":"teachers that have a commitment"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1888.603,"endTime":1893.005,"body":"to anti-racism and the school"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1888.603,"endTime":1893.005,"body":"hair policies or the uniform"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1893.081,"endTime":1897.788,"body":"policies that often discriminate"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1893.081,"endTime":1897.788,"body":"against Afro textured hair or"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1897.864,"endTime":1902.494,"body":"locks are a big issue. And to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1897.864,"endTime":1902.494,"body":"plug another campaign there's a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1902.57,"endTime":1906.897,"body":"group of young Black activists"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1902.57,"endTime":1906.897,"body":"in the UK called \"The Halo"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1906.973,"endTime":1911.831,"body":"Collective\" that produced a halo"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1906.973,"endTime":1911.831,"body":"code for schools to sign up to,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1911.907,"endTime":1916.385,"body":"to pledge their commitment to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1911.907,"endTime":1916.385,"body":"not discriminate against Afro"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1916.461,"endTime":1921.32,"body":"textured hair. And the work"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1916.461,"endTime":1921.32,"body":"they've been doing is truly amazing!"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1921.83,"endTime":1924.508,"body":"Yeah, I mean, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1921.83,"endTime":1924.508,"body":"wonder if this is like a good"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1924.568,"endTime":1928.199,"body":"time to bring up the work of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1924.568,"endTime":1928.199,"body":"Heidi Mirza. She's a sociologist"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1928.259,"endTime":1932.009,"body":"who's asked how race and gender"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1928.259,"endTime":1932.009,"body":"intersect in education, and how"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1932.068,"endTime":1934.866,"body":"those things shape the"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1932.068,"endTime":1934.866,"body":"experiences of Black and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1934.926,"endTime":1938.736,"body":"ethnicized women in those spaces"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1934.926,"endTime":1938.736,"body":"of teaching and learning. And I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1938.795,"endTime":1942.307,"body":"think some of what you were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1938.795,"endTime":1942.307,"body":"saying there, Remi, really kind"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":1942.367,"endTime":1944.57,"body":"of resonates with some of her themes."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1944.9,"endTime":1948.08,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1944.9,"endTime":1948.08,"body":"definitely. I think, thinking"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1948.08,"endTime":1953.87,"body":"about having the school uniform"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1948.08,"endTime":1953.87,"body":"policies, specifically, what we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1953.87,"endTime":1956.78,"body":"can see is that, although black"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1953.87,"endTime":1956.78,"body":"students generally are affected"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1956.78,"endTime":1960.89,"body":"by this, it's often young black"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1956.78,"endTime":1960.89,"body":"girls. And what Heidi Mirza's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1960.89,"endTime":1964.37,"body":"work pushes us to do – as well"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1960.89,"endTime":1964.37,"body":"as the work of other leading"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1964.4,"endTime":1968.03,"body":"black feminist like Heidi – is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1964.4,"endTime":1968.03,"body":"to pay attention to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1968.06,"endTime":1973.61,"body":"intersectionality and how issues"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1968.06,"endTime":1973.61,"body":"are not simply attributable to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1973.61,"endTime":1977.84,"body":"race, but are shaped by race and"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1973.61,"endTime":1977.84,"body":"class and gender and disability."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1978.08,"endTime":1983.06,"body":"And how all of these factors"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1978.08,"endTime":1983.06,"body":"interconnect and create a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1983.06,"endTime":1987.95,"body":"particular set of disadvantages"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1983.06,"endTime":1987.95,"body":"or advantages for students based"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1987.95,"endTime":1991.07,"body":"on the combination of those"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":1987.95,"endTime":1991.07,"body":"factors."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1991.61,"endTime":1993.38,"body":"You've"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1991.61,"endTime":1993.38,"body":"mentioned how certain staff, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1993.38,"endTime":1996.62,"body":"maybe especially staff from"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1993.38,"endTime":1996.62,"body":"underrepresented backgrounds,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1996.65,"endTime":2001.45,"body":"can end up doing or are expected"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":1996.65,"endTime":2001.45,"body":"to do extra work on things like"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2001.45,"endTime":2006.25,"body":"diversity, inclusion, mentoring,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2001.45,"endTime":2006.25,"body":"etc. That's got me thinking"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2006.25,"endTime":2009.97,"body":"about whether that applies to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2006.25,"endTime":2009.97,"body":"students too. So, thinking about"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2009.97,"endTime":2013.36,"body":"campaigns like #RhodesMustFall –"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2009.97,"endTime":2013.36,"body":"so, that's a movement that"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2013.36,"endTime":2017.47,"body":"started in 2015, at first"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2013.36,"endTime":2017.47,"body":"centred around a statue at the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2017.47,"endTime":2019.96,"body":"University of Cape Town"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2017.47,"endTime":2019.96,"body":"commemorating the British"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2019.96,"endTime":2024.46,"body":"imperialist, Cecil Rhodes. Is"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2019.96,"endTime":2024.46,"body":"that kind of labour, the work of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2024.49,"endTime":2029.35,"body":"activism of educating others"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2024.49,"endTime":2029.35,"body":"recognised once those students"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2029.35,"endTime":2030.19,"body":"graduate?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2030.37,"endTime":2033.178,"body":"It's a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2030.37,"endTime":2033.178,"body":"very interesting question, the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2033.254,"endTime":2037.504,"body":"burden? Well, our universities"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2033.254,"endTime":2037.504,"body":"are ill equipped to offer"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2037.58,"endTime":2041.906,"body":"students, the educational"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2037.58,"endTime":2041.906,"body":"experience that they're looking"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2041.982,"endTime":2045.701,"body":"for. We can see that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2041.982,"endTime":2045.701,"body":"particularly in the last few"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2045.777,"endTime":2050.027,"body":"years of students that have"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2045.777,"endTime":2050.027,"body":"increasingly been calling to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2050.103,"endTime":2054.581,"body":"decolonize education. And if we"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2050.103,"endTime":2054.581,"body":"see how active students are"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2054.657,"endTime":2059.362,"body":"having to be as a consequence of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2054.657,"endTime":2059.362,"body":"the failures of institutions,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2059.438,"endTime":2063.461,"body":"that's a significant burden"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2059.438,"endTime":2063.461,"body":"alongside the more formal"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2063.537,"endTime":2067.787,"body":"education. It's a set of tasks"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2063.537,"endTime":2067.787,"body":"and responsibilities that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2067.863,"endTime":2072.796,"body":"usually Black students and other"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2067.863,"endTime":2072.796,"body":"students of colour are having to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2072.872,"endTime":2076.895,"body":"engage in. That is not a task"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2072.872,"endTime":2076.895,"body":"being taken up by other"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2076.971,"endTime":2081.524,"body":"students. And of course, that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2076.971,"endTime":2081.524,"body":"poses a threat to their mental"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2081.6,"endTime":2085.775,"body":"health and wellbeing, but it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2081.6,"endTime":2085.775,"body":"also poses a threat to the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2085.851,"endTime":2089.57,"body":"attainment and that's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2085.851,"endTime":2089.57,"body":"significant. In addition to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2089.645,"endTime":2093.668,"body":"that, conversely, I would also"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2089.645,"endTime":2093.668,"body":"say that thinking more"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2093.744,"endTime":2098.222,"body":"expansively about education,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2093.744,"endTime":2098.222,"body":"there's perhaps far more to be"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2098.298,"endTime":2102.852,"body":"learned in those movements, in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2098.298,"endTime":2102.852,"body":"the #RhodesMustFall campaign,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2102.927,"endTime":2107.254,"body":"for example, than there is in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2102.927,"endTime":2107.254,"body":"any university classroom. I"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2107.33,"endTime":2112.187,"body":"wouldn't want to romanticise it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2107.33,"endTime":2112.187,"body":"too much, because students go to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2112.263,"endTime":2116.817,"body":"university to get a degree and"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2112.263,"endTime":2116.817,"body":"that has a significant impact"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2116.893,"endTime":2120.612,"body":"upon their lives after"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2116.893,"endTime":2120.612,"body":"university. But also, it's"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2120.687,"endTime":2125.621,"body":"important to recognise the value"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2120.687,"endTime":2125.621,"body":"of those forms of education that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2125.697,"endTime":2128.05,"body":"take place in social movements."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2129.1,"endTime":2131.71,"body":"Remi, today's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2129.1,"endTime":2131.71,"body":"conversation has already touched"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2131.71,"endTime":2134.23,"body":"on the fact that education"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2131.71,"endTime":2134.23,"body":"doesn't just happen in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2134.23,"endTime":2137.98,"body":"classrooms, or in the lecture"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2134.23,"endTime":2137.98,"body":"hall for that matter. You often"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2137.98,"endTime":2141.94,"body":"hear the phrase \"it's been an"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2137.98,"endTime":2141.94,"body":"education\", where someone's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2141.94,"endTime":2145.57,"body":"referring to an experience that"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2141.94,"endTime":2145.57,"body":"might have surprised them by"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2145.57,"endTime":2149.53,"body":"teaching them something they"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2145.57,"endTime":2149.53,"body":"weren't expecting. So, for me, I"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2149.53,"endTime":2153.19,"body":"think I definitely experienced"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2149.53,"endTime":2153.19,"body":"that when I spent a couple of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2153.19,"endTime":2156.64,"body":"months in Palestine on the West"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2153.19,"endTime":2156.64,"body":"Bank doing some nonviolent"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2156.64,"endTime":2161.77,"body":"activism. And I was a pretty"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2156.64,"endTime":2161.77,"body":"naive 20-something thrown in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2161.8,"endTime":2166.78,"body":"with some completely radical and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2161.8,"endTime":2166.78,"body":"really, honestly quite wild,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2166.81,"endTime":2170.86,"body":"Italian anarchists who were"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2166.81,"endTime":2170.86,"body":"awesome. And let me tell you,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2170.86,"endTime":2175.75,"body":"those months were an education."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2170.86,"endTime":2175.75,"body":"That's for sure. Alexis, do you"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2175.75,"endTime":2177.49,"body":"have a similar experience?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2178.27,"endTime":2180.79,"body":"I guess, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2178.27,"endTime":2180.79,"body":"first times I went into the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2180.79,"endTime":2183.37,"body":"carceral institution around here"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2180.79,"endTime":2183.37,"body":"for the \"Walls to Bridges\""},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2184.45,"endTime":2189.16,"body":"initiative. Like, I'm diabetic,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2184.45,"endTime":2189.16,"body":"so, I got to the entrance with"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2189.16,"endTime":2192.49,"body":"my insulin pump and my juice and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2189.16,"endTime":2192.49,"body":"so forth, in case I had low"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2192.49,"endTime":2195.22,"body":"blood sugar, and they said,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2192.49,"endTime":2195.22,"body":"basically, like: \"Well, you can"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2195.22,"endTime":2198.67,"body":"get that can in because people"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2195.22,"endTime":2198.67,"body":"will turn it into a shiv, it's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2198.67,"endTime":2203.23,"body":"dangerous\", right? And by shiv I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2198.67,"endTime":2203.23,"body":"mean an improvised knife or"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2203.23,"endTime":2206.47,"body":"blade, especially like in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2203.23,"endTime":2206.47,"body":"prison. So the next time around,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2206.47,"endTime":2209.62,"body":"I put it in a bottle, I got the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2206.47,"endTime":2209.62,"body":"bottle to the entrance, and"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2209.62,"endTime":2211.96,"body":"\"Hmm, you can't"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2209.62,"endTime":2211.96,"body":"have that bottle, people can"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2211.99,"endTime":2214.27,"body":"turn it into a shiv\". And then"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2211.99,"endTime":2214.27,"body":"I'm like: \"Okay, well, what do I"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2214.27,"endTime":2217.48,"body":"do?\" And then they ended up"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2214.27,"endTime":2217.48,"body":"giving me a liquid that they"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2217.48,"endTime":2220.03,"body":"served, I guess, to the prison"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2217.48,"endTime":2220.03,"body":"population. And I didn't even"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2220.03,"endTime":2223.66,"body":"know like how much glucose was"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2220.03,"endTime":2223.66,"body":"in there. It was an education in"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2223.66,"endTime":2225.97,"body":"the sense that it got me really,"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2223.66,"endTime":2225.97,"body":"really thinking about how rules"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2225.97,"endTime":2229.18,"body":"are being applied, and how they"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2225.97,"endTime":2229.18,"body":"apply differently to different"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2229.18,"endTime":2232.12,"body":"individuals. And I felt like"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2229.18,"endTime":2232.12,"body":"really privileged coming into"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2232.81,"endTime":2236.65,"body":"those situations. But I was"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2232.81,"endTime":2236.65,"body":"wondering, like, if I was one of"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2236.65,"endTime":2240.01,"body":"the prison population, how would"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2236.65,"endTime":2240.01,"body":"I be able to take care of"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2240.01,"endTime":2242.02,"body":"myself, my diabetes and so"},{"speaker":"they're like","startTime":2240.01,"endTime":2242.02,"body":"forth, right?"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2242.05,"endTime":2244.57,"body":"Remi, I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2242.05,"endTime":2244.57,"body":"wondering, if you've ever had"},{"speaker":"that feeling of","startTime":2244.57,"endTime":2247.66,"body":"\"Wow, that was"},{"speaker":"that feeling of","startTime":2244.57,"endTime":2247.66,"body":"an education.\""},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2248.05,"endTime":2251.199,"body":"Many"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2248.05,"endTime":2251.199,"body":"times, I think. I can remember,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2251.287,"endTime":2256.099,"body":"as an undergraduate, going to"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2251.287,"endTime":2256.099,"body":"the West Indian Community"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2256.186,"endTime":2261.086,"body":"Centre, hearing a Black"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2256.186,"endTime":2261.086,"body":"community historian challenge an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2261.174,"endTime":2266.598,"body":"academic that was speaking, it"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2261.174,"endTime":2266.598,"body":"was a real formative moment for"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2266.686,"endTime":2272.023,"body":"me that this Black community"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2266.686,"endTime":2272.023,"body":"historian who really, really was"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2272.11,"endTime":2276.66,"body":"so well-versed, but not given"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2272.11,"endTime":2276.66,"body":"the accreditation, not"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2276.747,"endTime":2281.997,"body":"celebrated as a historian, was"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2276.747,"endTime":2281.997,"body":"able to challenge and offer a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2282.085,"endTime":2287.159,"body":"more compelling account of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2282.085,"endTime":2287.159,"body":"history than the presenter, who"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2287.247,"endTime":2291.709,"body":"was celebrated as a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2287.247,"endTime":2291.709,"body":"university-based historian. And"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2291.796,"endTime":2296.784,"body":"I think more generally, in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2291.796,"endTime":2296.784,"body":"spaces like that, in community"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2296.871,"endTime":2302.558,"body":"centres, in community campaigns,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2296.871,"endTime":2302.558,"body":"I think there are often forms of"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2302.646,"endTime":2307.633,"body":"knowledge, often shaped by"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2302.646,"endTime":2307.633,"body":"people's lived experience that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2307.72,"endTime":2313.407,"body":"are really, really incisive. And"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2307.72,"endTime":2313.407,"body":"I've had a profound impact upon,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2313.495,"endTime":2318.22,"body":"upon my experiences as an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2313.495,"endTime":2318.22,"body":"academic and as an activist."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2318.31,"endTime":2320.41,"body":"Yeah, that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2318.31,"endTime":2320.41,"body":"really interesting. And I quite"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2320.41,"endTime":2323.71,"body":"like how the three of us have"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2320.41,"endTime":2323.71,"body":"sort of picked up on different"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2324.01,"endTime":2327.7,"body":"aspects of how we might"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2324.01,"endTime":2327.7,"body":"encounter education or knowledge"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2327.7,"endTime":2332.17,"body":"outside of the formal system as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2327.7,"endTime":2332.17,"body":"well. Remi, that's almost it for"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2332.17,"endTime":2335.17,"body":"today. We've talked about"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2332.17,"endTime":2335.17,"body":"education in a broad sense,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2335.23,"endTime":2337.66,"body":"we've talked about its"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2335.23,"endTime":2337.66,"body":"relationship to surveillance, to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2337.66,"endTime":2342.04,"body":"state power, to inequality. But"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2337.66,"endTime":2342.04,"body":"we also wondered what you might"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2342.1,"endTime":2346.48,"body":"want to point us to in terms of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2342.1,"endTime":2346.48,"body":"films, music, art, or literature"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2346.63,"endTime":2349.63,"body":"that says something important"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2346.63,"endTime":2349.63,"body":"about the idea of school. You"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2349.63,"endTime":2351.82,"body":"know, we like to wrap up with"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2349.63,"endTime":2351.82,"body":"this little pop culture"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2352.09,"endTime":2355.75,"body":"exercise. And we all chip in our"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2352.09,"endTime":2355.75,"body":"suggestion. So I'm going to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2355.75,"endTime":2359.68,"body":"start with something that's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2355.75,"endTime":2359.68,"body":"really light and fluffy. That's"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2359.68,"endTime":2362.65,"body":"the TV series \"Sex Education\","},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2359.68,"endTime":2362.65,"body":"which I've been watching and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2362.68,"endTime":2367.06,"body":"really enjoying. And if I was to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2362.68,"endTime":2367.06,"body":"try and make it a little bit"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2367.06,"endTime":2370.45,"body":"serious, I'd say, I guess, it"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2367.06,"endTime":2370.45,"body":"might speak to the issue of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2370.45,"endTime":2373.42,"body":"what's on the official"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2370.45,"endTime":2373.42,"body":"curriculum and what we might"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2373.42,"endTime":2376.63,"body":"also learn through other means."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2373.42,"endTime":2376.63,"body":"Is there anything you would"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2376.69,"endTime":2377.68,"body":"briefly mention?"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2378.4,"endTime":2381.321,"body":"Yeah,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2378.4,"endTime":2381.321,"body":"similar to your recommendation,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2381.4,"endTime":2385.584,"body":"I guess, in terms of the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2381.4,"endTime":2385.584,"body":"message. It's a poem by John"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2385.663,"endTime":2390.242,"body":"Agard called \"Checking Out Me"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2385.663,"endTime":2390.242,"body":"History\". Some listeners who"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2390.321,"endTime":2394.822,"body":"were educated in the UK will be"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2390.321,"endTime":2394.822,"body":"familiar with John Agard,"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2394.901,"endTime":2399.796,"body":"because some of his other poetry"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2394.901,"endTime":2399.796,"body":"was on the school curriculum."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2399.875,"endTime":2405.007,"body":"But this poem – \"Checking Out Me"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2399.875,"endTime":2405.007,"body":"History\" – really speaks to what"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2405.086,"endTime":2409.665,"body":"is not included in our school"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2405.086,"endTime":2409.665,"body":"curriculums. It's John Agard"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2409.744,"endTime":2414.481,"body":"describing his journey to find"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2409.744,"endTime":2414.481,"body":"those more radical educations"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2414.56,"endTime":2418.903,"body":"that we don't get taught in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2414.56,"endTime":2418.903,"body":"schools, and I think it's a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2418.982,"endTime":2423.798,"body":"really powerful poem; one that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2418.982,"endTime":2423.798,"body":"I've always valued dearly. And"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2423.877,"endTime":2428.377,"body":"in addition, there was an"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2423.877,"endTime":2428.377,"body":"anthology called \"Small Axe\" by"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2428.456,"endTime":2433.351,"body":"the director Steve McQueen, a"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2428.456,"endTime":2433.351,"body":"series of five episodes or films"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2433.43,"endTime":2438.009,"body":"pertaining to Black British"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2433.43,"endTime":2438.009,"body":"history. And one of those five"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2438.088,"endTime":2442.825,"body":"episodes is titled \"Education\","},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2438.088,"endTime":2442.825,"body":"and it follows a 12-year-old"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2442.904,"endTime":2447.563,"body":"boy, Kingsley, as he is placed"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2442.904,"endTime":2447.563,"body":"in school – a school for the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2447.642,"endTime":2452.142,"body":"\"educationally subnormal\", as"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2447.642,"endTime":2452.142,"body":"they were called. And these"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2452.221,"endTime":2457.116,"body":"schools were disproportionately"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2452.221,"endTime":2457.116,"body":"made up of Black students that"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2457.195,"endTime":2461.932,"body":"... That institutional racism in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2457.195,"endTime":2461.932,"body":"the education system pushed"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2462.011,"endTime":2466.275,"body":"Black students into these"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2462.011,"endTime":2466.275,"body":"schools, and there's a whole"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2466.353,"endTime":2471.328,"body":"generation of students who were"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2466.353,"endTime":2471.328,"body":"not given the education that is"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2471.407,"endTime":2475.749,"body":"a ... They were referred to at"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2471.407,"endTime":2475.749,"body":"the time as \"educational"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2475.828,"endTime":2479.539,"body":"dustbins\". A lot of the"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2475.828,"endTime":2479.539,"body":"literature on racism in"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2479.618,"endTime":2483.25,"body":"education was really catalysed"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2479.618,"endTime":2483.25,"body":"by this moment."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2483.34,"endTime":2485.26,"body":"Thanks Remi. I'm"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2483.34,"endTime":2485.26,"body":"gonna have to try and get my"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2485.26,"endTime":2489.37,"body":"hands on that poem by John"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2485.26,"endTime":2489.37,"body":"Agard, and that film as well."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2489.91,"endTime":2491.53,"body":"Alexis, what about you?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2491.71,"endTime":2494.47,"body":"Hmm, there's"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2491.71,"endTime":2494.47,"body":"actually a fairly recent book"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2494.5,"endTime":2499.06,"body":"called \"From the Ashes\" written"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2494.5,"endTime":2499.06,"body":"by Jesse Thistle, Métis/Cree"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2499.09,"endTime":2503.59,"body":"author and academic in Canada."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2499.09,"endTime":2503.59,"body":"It's received many prizes and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2503.59,"endTime":2506.71,"body":"really speaks, I think, to a lot"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2503.59,"endTime":2506.71,"body":"of the issues that we've talked"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2506.71,"endTime":2510.22,"body":"about today. So namely, his"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2506.71,"endTime":2510.22,"body":"experience with addiction,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2510.22,"endTime":2514.48,"body":"homelessness, incarceration, and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2510.22,"endTime":2514.48,"body":"also education, on top of"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2514.51,"endTime":2517.93,"body":"intergenerational trauma. I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2514.51,"endTime":2517.93,"body":"definitely recommend it."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2517.99,"endTime":2520.12,"body":"Thanks, Alexis."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2517.99,"endTime":2520.12,"body":"That sounds like a good read."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2520.72,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"And thank you Remi for coming on"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2520.72,"endTime":2526.0,"body":"the podcast today. I guess we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2529.24,"body":"gonna sign out now. So thanks,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2526.0,"endTime":2529.24,"body":"and goodbye."},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2529.33,"endTime":2530.47,"body":"Thank you"},{"speaker":"Remi Joseph-Salisbury","startTime":2529.33,"endTime":2530.47,"body":"for having me."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2531.43,"endTime":2533.92,"body":"That's it for us"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2531.43,"endTime":2533.92,"body":"for this month. If you want to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2533.92,"endTime":2537.04,"body":"see the reading list from"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2533.92,"endTime":2537.04,"body":"today's show, including a pic of"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2537.04,"endTime":2540.46,"body":"relevant pieces from The"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2537.04,"endTime":2540.46,"body":"Sociological Review, scroll down"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2540.46,"endTime":2543.52,"body":"to our show notes, or head to"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2540.46,"endTime":2543.52,"body":"our podcast page at"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2543.52,"endTime":2548.11,"body":"thesociologicalreview.org."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2543.52,"endTime":2548.11,"body":"Alexis, what really struck me"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2548.11,"endTime":2553.24,"body":"today about our conversation was"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2548.11,"endTime":2553.24,"body":"the way in which so much of what"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2553.27,"endTime":2555.61,"body":"Remi was talking about,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2553.27,"endTime":2555.61,"body":"particularly in terms of race"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2555.61,"endTime":2558.76,"body":"and the experience of school,"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2555.61,"endTime":2558.76,"body":"applied as much to teachers as"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2558.76,"endTime":2562.03,"body":"it did to students as well. What"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2558.76,"endTime":2562.03,"body":"are you going to take away from"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2562.03,"endTime":2562.93,"body":"our chat with Remi?"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2562.99,"endTime":2564.76,"body":"Well, I"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2562.99,"endTime":2564.76,"body":"think for me, it was really,"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2564.76,"endTime":2569.26,"body":"like, the complexity of those"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2564.76,"endTime":2569.26,"body":"issues and how they're ingrained"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2569.26,"endTime":2575.02,"body":"historically. And basically, the"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2569.26,"endTime":2575.02,"body":"fact that it needs to mobilise a"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2575.02,"endTime":2578.65,"body":"lot of different actors and"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2575.02,"endTime":2578.65,"body":"institutions at the same time to"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2578.65,"endTime":2580.78,"body":"be able to address them."},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2581.92,"endTime":2584.11,"body":"There's so much"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2581.92,"endTime":2584.11,"body":"more to talk about and do in"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2584.11,"endTime":2587.77,"body":"this space. So, if you've"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2584.11,"endTime":2587.77,"body":"enjoyed listening, do subscribe"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2587.77,"endTime":2591.1,"body":"or follow and give us a review"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2587.77,"endTime":2591.1,"body":"in whatever app you're using. It"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2591.1,"endTime":2594.76,"body":"helps us to keep bringing"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2591.1,"endTime":2594.76,"body":"Uncommon Sense to you. We'll be"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2594.76,"endTime":2597.91,"body":"back next month when we're"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2594.76,"endTime":2597.91,"body":"talking about intimacy and"},{"speaker":"Rosie Hancock","startTime":2597.91,"endTime":2599.11,"body":"relationships."},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2599.5,"endTime":2601.42,"body":"Our"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2599.5,"endTime":2601.42,"body":"executive producer was Alice"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2601.42,"endTime":2604.42,"body":"Bloch, our sound engineer was"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2601.42,"endTime":2604.42,"body":"Dave Crackles. Thanks for"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2604.42,"endTime":2606.43,"body":"joining us. It's been in"},{"speaker":"Alexis Hieu Truong","startTime":2604.42,"endTime":2606.43,"body":"education."}]}